Team GONG Embassy
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Celts-GONG.jpg
Team GONG
Civ: Celts
Traits: Religious, Agricultural
UU: Gallic Swordsman 3.2.2 (+1 move swordsman, +10 shield cost)
Contact: Turn 119


Sir Bugsy
Tim Bentley
Daghdha
RickFGS
Ansar the King
SimpleMonkey
RFHolloway
madviking
archphoenix
killercane
jb1964
Tone
Perfection
markh
Theryman
PrinceMyshkin
Othniel

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p265/dagisfroken/gongsh2.jpg

Proposed First Letter to send to GONG:

Dear Party Animals of the GONG show,
Keepers of the Great Library & Pyramid of Cans,
Exporters of fine adult beverages,

Warmest greetings from the halls of The Council! We are pleased to finally make your acquaintance, and look forward to a mutually beneficial relationship.

What are you plans for this watery world? We look forward to hearing from you!

General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Note: I'm not real sure what to say here, as we're not exactly interested in trading with GONG.
Also note – there's a good chance that GONG will be going for a cultural victory… with their safe island and their cheap religious buildings. 100k in multiplayer always seemed like suicide to me – but we should keep in mind that they might be thinking about it… and so we may not want to offer a really long peace treaty?

Thought? Re-writes?

Nevermind. I don't think they're going for cultural. Perhaps a three way space race will be ahead.

Looks good to me. The caption for their stats says BABE though. ;)

:blush: Thanks Niklas! Now fixed.

Anyone think we ought to offer a 20 or 25 turn peace treaty? Sounds nice, and we won't get astronomy/want to attack anyone before then anyway.

Or just start vague, as above, and let them make the first move?

Regarding their current military strength (or rather weakness) I'm not too scared... They seem to hide behind their fierce UU without ever building one...

What scares me more is the thought that BABE could invade them, get a whole continent with Pyramides and maybe even leave the GL town for last as elevator :scared:

Their feudal government however is something to wonder about. The must be piling gold, with probably zero research and no cash rushing in Feudalism. :confused:
What for? 100% research till the end of the game once GL became obsolet? :hmm:

In feudalism, you can build a huge army....

Think of it: GLib gives them education, they do a fast switch to republic for a run to astronomy, have a huge army and invade.

Dunno if that is what they are planning, but...

What for? 100% research till the end of the game once GL became obsolet? :hmm:

Tech stealing maybe

By the way I just realized something when we were afraid of the almighty Babe Gong era jump. What benefit if any would their of gong to let babe in on the jump.

They could agree to share the loot? :hmm:

What loot.

The techs BABE gets when it rides the elevator to the Modern Times...
They might agree (quite a risk for GONG) that BABE shares them with GONG.

ok - I'm sending our into letter now.

Title: "Greetings from The Council"

:salute:

Oh – and I've noticed speculation elsewhere that GONG established an embassy with us. Are we sure this is true? Because if it's just a matter of seeing the land around their capital, it's more likely that FREE established the embassy (or had one established on them) and we can just see it because we got FREE's map.

No, it's true. You can see it on the spionage-screen <shift>-e. We got an embassy with GONG.

Ah - thanks. Just haven't had a chance to look there myself.

How odd... they open an embassy and don't even bother to send a letter to say hi :nono:

Well, it'll be interesting to see how they respond to our note.

Word in from GONG!


Hello to The Council from the fun-loving anarchists of the Gongers!

Our current plans are to assess our ever-expanding world and see how we can all move forward together in a fun-loving (not that there's anything wrong with that) way.

We have long heard of the relationship you have struck up with team Free. Rumor had it that the FC-Axis was on the verge of interstellar flight so we are bit nonplused that you two have only made a single deposit into the Great Gong Library.

Currently The Great Gong Library is only stocked w/ Iron Man comics, AAA maps of Whales and Indiana, and a tap that runs back to the Pyramids. Daghie never leaves that place except to beat on his drums that are specifically forbidden inside the Library. Once we actually get some books in that place we'll also have to deal with his incessant taping on "everything" with a #2 pencil and a spork.

In this world of odd islands, odd numbers, odd teams, and outright goofy characters it would be splendid if we could find a way to work together in a mutually beneficial manner. And since I'm not really the idea guy amongst the Gongers I'll wait to hear back from The Council, keepers of SoZ, new friends in the world of Rik, for suggestion as to how we may formally cooperate in the short, mid and long terms.

Salutations,

Ambassador jb of the Gongers


Well – they clearly want us to know that they're paying attention – so no funny business!
At least they're honest about their thievery with the Great Library… and they appear to be a bit puzzled by our recently diminished trading with FREE. That's good :thumbsup:

I say we come right back at them with our knowledge of their relationship with BABE, and see if they might be interested in a DAB treaty? Good way to feel them out on where they currently stand with BABE… and if we do still end up as BABE's target, it'd be pretty sweet to get gold payments from 3 teams!

Rough Draft Response:

Dear jb and all GONG funlovers,

As you are correctly gathering, rumors of The Council flying cars and spaceships was greatly exaggerated. Don't despair over the marginal returns on your Great Spybary just yet… I'm sure you'll get your money's worth out of it… at the very least, it's sure to be a great source of cultural improvement! :)

We'll admit to some hesitation at working with you, as the Council Intelligence Agency long ago uncovered the GONG-BABE cooperation that catapulted you both into the (formerly fashionable) Middle Ages. But now with the BABE armada frustrated and wandering about aimlessly looking for beach party that's not already too crowded (if you catch my drift)… we're wondering if perhaps you're truly interested in other friends?

As a starting point, we'd like to offer you a D.A.B. treaty… Defense Against BABE. We would agree to a guaranteed peace deal with you (say, minimum of 30 turns?), and during that time, if either team is attacked by BABE, then the team not under attack would gift 20gpt to the besieged team for the duration of the attack/up to 20 turns max.

Would you have any interest in such a deal?

Looking forward to seeing where we can go from here.

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts on the basic premise of this letter?
Let's clean this up and get a response back to GONG!

Yes, I like it! If they say yes, hooray, then there is no alliance. And if BABE does attack them, we could do worse things than boosting them. If they say no, we'll have more evidence of the BABE/GONG warm relations and nothing has been lost.

So, I worry that they are in bed with BABE (though, why Dr Bambi would want to associate with a guy who looks like Brennus when there are plenty of middle-aged fat guys like me around...) and I am not sure I want to hint around at specifics.

I really dont' want to add *more* hints that we are relatively undefended and I don't know that I want get specific in our DAB proposal until we here back. I'd also really like to know what they plan to do with the island that FREE settled that they can reach.

@ AT – I don't think this letter has any "specifics" in it? What are you referring to?

I agree – it'd be great to find out what GONG's plan is for that FREE island near them, but how do you propose we get them to tell us???
They've already indicated that they know we've got a good relationship with FREE.

I have no objection to removing the specifics of the proposed DAB treaty… I put them in to make us look more serious about it. But if other's agree, I don't have really strong feelings on the subject.

I can see AT's point. I think we can take the specifics out for now, just ask them if they would be willing to sign any kind of DAB treaty at all.

FREE has been talking with Gong. That's the only way Gong could have guessed (correctly) at our relationship.

I'm fine with the specifics - but it could come across as a clumsy first deal, especially if FREE has already approached them :eek:

I like it. But gong can take babe.

I don't think FREE has spoken to GONG about it at all - I think they've heard it from BABE.

From my chat with GreekGuy of Saber…

Apparently GONG got contact with us and Saber on the same turn. Saber believes this means that BABE gave them the contact info for both of us… and yes, GONG established an embassy with both of us on the same turn.

Dirty rotten spies… grumble…

But this does support the idea that what GONG knows can't be totally blamed on loose lips over at FREE... BABE is obviously involved in keeping them well supplied.

Oh... And version 2 response:

Dear jb and all GONG funlovers,

As you are correctly gathering, rumors of The Council flying cars and spaceships was greatly exaggerated. Don't despair over the marginal returns on your Great Spybary just yet… I'm sure you'll get your money's worth out of it… at the very least, it's sure to be a great source of cultural improvement! :)

We'll admit to some hesitation at working with you, as the Council Intelligence Agency long ago uncovered the GONG-BABE cooperation that catapulted you both into the (formerly fashionable) Middle Ages. But now with the BABE armada frustrated and wandering about aimlessly looking for beach party that's not already too crowded (if you catch my drift)… we're wondering if perhaps you're truly interested in other friends?

As a starting point, we'd like to offer you a D.A.B. treaty… Defense Against BABE. We could both agree to some guaranteed peace and to send gold to the other team if they're attacked by BABE?

Would you have any interest in such a deal?

Looking forward to seeing where we can go from here.

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts?

Why would Gong except these contacts.

well, I was reading "beach party that's not too crowded" as meaning "we aren't covering our borders. though, they probably know that, since we are weak to them.

But I may be being too paranoid.

I will flip-flop and say that the original letter is fine. The 2nd is, too.

I don't like the bringing up of a defensive treaty against BABE. The trade of contacts was a tell for me that they are at least working together. I wouldn't want BABE to hear of this defensive against them.

I agree we want to guage their relations, but don't want to force them to feel like they are on the bad side of a 3v2 battle or force them to into trying to play both sides.

dl has a good point IMO. GONG and BABE are obviously in this together.

Yes but Babe knows that wea are anti Babe.

Actually, you could say it would be ideal for BABE to find out about our DAB treaties.
We can't tell them directly (makes us look scared) - but if they find out indirectly that we've got treaties like that, I think it makes us look like an even harder target.

To me - the idea that GONG may tell BABE about our DAB proposal is an agrument in favor of sending this letter with that offer.

I agree, all the evidence points to a GONG/BABE alliance... but we don't really know that. GONG may be annoyed at BABE's hissy fit, their deal could have just been to catch Council/FREE, BABE may be angry about GONG's culture strategy... there's just too many possibilities yet.
I think it'd be a shame to not try... it'd be huge if we can split GONG away from BABE even a little bit.

I still think we should send the letter as-is in version 2.
Did I sway anyone?

I'm fine with either version.

Actually, you could say it would be ideal for BABE to find out about our DAB treaties.
We can't tell them directly (makes us look scared) - but if they find out indirectly that we've got treaties like that, I think it makes us look like an even harder target.

To me - the idea that GONG may tell BABE about our DAB proposal is an agrument in favor of sending this letter with that offer.

I agree, all the evidence points to a GONG/BABE alliance... but we don't really know that. GONG may be annoyed at BABE's hissy fit, their deal could have just been to catch Council/FREE, BABE may be angry about GONG's culture strategy... there's just too many possibilities yet.
I think it'd be a shame to not try... it'd be huge if we can split GONG away from BABE even a little bit.

I still think we should send the letter as-is in version 2.
Did I sway anyone?

I have to say, you think pretty well for a man with 1 letter in his last name!!!

Very subtle point in the fine art of diplomacy!!

You know, I could easily make the argument that it would be wise to include in the letter even more info about our existing DABs:
If you sign this DAB, you can be assured of a very generous influx of gold per turn if BABE attacks you. That's the beauty of the DAB society: all the existing members flood the target with cash and techs if BABE invades!

That way, if GONG does inform BABE about the DAB, BABE will see that the other teams are quite serious about nullifying the advantages they've gained by investing in the Great LightHouse.

Hmm thinking even farther. How about we "accidently" send it to babe. give it a subject like dear gongs.

I just don't want to put BABE or GONG is a situation where they think they must find a way to attack now or they are going to lose (granted they might already think this). I rather they sail away towards their home. That said this has some risk too, if BABE attacks GONG or us.

Therefore how about something like:
If you are getting worried about BABE's boats coming your way let us know and we will work something out that will be in both of our interests.

I do think we need to get something out soon, even if its without the BABE part while we continue to debate and send a second notice.

... I'm always partial to subterfuge - that's why I like Cub's idea :scan:

However, General_W usually has very good reasons why we should avoid those sorts of things :lol:

Thanks AT :) I try!


If you sign this DAB, you can be assured of a very generous influx of gold per turn if BABE attacks you. That's the beauty of the DAB society: all the existing members flood the target with cash and techs if BABE invades!

@ Peter… well, I think that's over-reaching a bit and a mistake. It's all about relative advantage. If we have a DAB treaty, that makes us a harder target. If everyone has a DAB treaty, then we're not a harder target than anyone else.

It's possible I over-think these things, as BABE very well may not be paying that much attention anymore. ("contractual obligation turn sent" – Wotan :rolleyes: )

I think cubsfan has a fascinating idea there (read: :evil: ) but that's a one time deal. We only get to fool one team one time with that trick, if at all! I'd save that for later when it might be more valuable. Right now, we're not in imminent danger of BABE attacking, so we don't need to pull out all the stops to scare them away.

I'd like to send version 2 later today – any remaining objections?

Dear jb and all GONG funlovers,

As you have correctly gathered, rumors of The Council flying cars and spaceships were greatly exaggerated. Don't despair over the marginal returns on your Great Spybary just yet… I'm sure you'll get your money's worth out of it… at the very least, it's sure to be a great source of cultural improvement! :)

We'll admit to some hesitation at working with you, as the Council Intelligence Agency long ago uncovered the GONG-BABE cooperation that catapulted you both into the (formerly fashionable) Middle Ages. But now with the BABE armada frustrated and wandering about aimlessly looking for beach party that's not already too crowded (if you catch my drift)… we're wondering if perhaps you're truly interested in other friends?

As a starting point, we'd like to offer you a D.A.B. treaty… Defense Against BABE. We could both agree to some guaranteed peace and to send gold to the other team if they're attacked by BABE?

Would you have any interest in such a deal?

Looking forward to seeing where we can go from here.

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

Based on what I just read in the FREE thread I say send it as is, GONG sounds a little scared.

Looks good :)

One thought that I had concerning cubs' idea of a 'missent' letter: a letter could be addressed to Gongs, but sent to a team member of BABE, rather than the team's gmail.

But clearly, I'm not suggesting that this happen with this letter ;)

Ok – thanks all … I'm now sending version 2!
:salute:

Title: "Next Steps?"

Dear jb and all GONG funlovers,

As you have correctly gathered, rumors of The Council flying cars and spaceships were greatly exaggerated. Don't despair over the marginal returns on your Great Spybary just yet… I'm sure you'll get your money's worth out of it… at the very least, it's sure to be a great source of cultural improvement! :)

We'll admit to some hesitation at working with you, as the Council Intelligence Agency long ago uncovered the GONG-BABE cooperation that catapulted you both into the (formerly fashionable) Middle Ages. But now with the BABE armada frustrated and wandering about aimlessly looking for beach party that's not already too crowded (if you catch my drift)… we're wondering if perhaps you're truly interested in other friends?

As a starting point, we'd like to offer you a D.A.B. treaty… Defense Against BABE. We could both agree to some guaranteed peace and to send gold to the other team if they're attacked by BABE?

Would you have any interest in such a deal?

Looking forward to seeing where we can go from here.

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

I'd also add to the second paragraph that we were concerned because they did establish an embassy without saying hello. We considered that bad style.

And maybe we could even mention their bad behaviour towards FREE, maybe we get them to uncover some of their diplomatic plans? I feel them slightly more friendly towards us but that could just be the case because it was not our galley to sail their shores without asking for permission... :rolleyes:

We can try fishing for info on GONG's relationship to FREE in the next letter Paul - you posted about 8 hours after I'd already sent the letter :)

Response from GONG:

Honorable General_W and fine Council members,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement regarding the future value of the Great Gong Library. Since all our information was filtered through Team Babe we only got a look at the picture that was painted for us. Daghie's calling it a Whompian Consipracy and Killer's words are less kind. Babe had a choice as to whom they wanted to tech partner up with to catch up to the FC-Axis and we got the nod over Saber. Lucky us. Obviously Saber felt the lack of love from the Babe hotties and wisely prepped for the worst.

Now the Babes were on a bit of a rampage, evidenced by the UN rants, and although they should/could be saber rattling, no pun intended, I think the remaining players are trying to lick their tactical wounds and settle on a change of direction. Also, since we currently have a peace agreement w/ the Babes we're counting on them retaining a sense of honor and not pillaging our malted beverage supply in the near term. We've also given them glimpses of our roaming GS's and let them figure out just how long a stack of MW's would last against that. So we don't have an urgent need for a D.A.B. treaty. Also being a Feudal society sitting on our Spybary our need for gold to rush anything is about zero. But our ability to provide gold in a time of need is certainly not zero.

Like you, we're not interested in the Babes running amok, even at your expense, while the rest of us are so far from Astro and the ability to keep them in check. So we're interested in a faster tech pace that would move all of us towards Astro and provide some parity in the high seas and a real fear that an offensive move could be countered w/ a landing from a partner. But now we're back to our investment in the Great Gong Library. Our desire to move forward scientifically is counterbalanced by our desire to sit on our lazy butts and rake in techs for free.

Therefore, if the Babes are going to leverage their ownership of the seas we would like to enter into an agreement that helps us reach Astro before long while also providing the D.A.B. partners some level of comfort in the event of an unwanted beach party. The question becomes, are you interested in helping us get to Astro and at what cost? Also on the table are the lower tier techs and long term agreements reguarding the sharing of luxeries once trade can be established.

Best Regards,

jb


Quick analysis – BABE and GONG still friends, but not as close as we had feared.
Traditional DAB treaty is out of the question, (forgot about the feudalism thing!), but other ideas might be possible.

Wild idea: (FREE would have to be consulted and then agree to this) What if we offered GONG Astronomy for free, in exchange, they promise to not trade Theology, Education or Astronomy with BABE, and agree to burn the Great Library if BABE has a chance to capture it during the Middle Ages.

If GONG is really not too keen on BABE anymore, this is a wildly good deal for them. It's costly for us, but it does a couple good things.
it gives us the best insurance we're likely to get against the Great Library Elevator threat.
It gives us a friendly deal with GONG
It speeds GONG to astronomy, and speeds them along to potentially contesting FREE for those bonus islands… might help put the brakes on FREE's run-away advantage over us.
It for all intents and purposes locks BABE out of trading… and not just on the peaceful side of the tree! It's hard to see how they could get any deals going, unless they make a deal with Saber.


Still – it's a wild idea. Thoughts?

Very interesting, G_W :hmm:

It's one thing for us to think Astronomy is worth that, it's another thing entirely for us to be able to sell FREE on that... sounds like a job for Diplomacy :lol:

I want a peace treaty with it.

it's another thing entirely for us to be able to sell FREE on that... sounds like a job for Diplomacy

:lol: - yeah, what does a guy have to do to win the Councilor Award thing anyway? Maybe if I talk us into a UN victory? :deal: :lol:

Seriously though – I think we can get FREE to go along with it. Just need to convince them of the threat of the Glib, and play up the value of cutting BABE out of trading.

If you talk us into a multiplayer U.N victory that would be impressive.

Oh I also wan't a no competition clause on the observitory.

Weren't we worried a days ago that GONG was going to beat us to copericous, and now we are just going to give them astronomy :nono:

That's why we need a no competition clause on it.

I agree with cubsfan. Though if we start building it in TC as soon as possible, which I guess we will, then it's less of a threat. I haven't decided if I like the idea or not. It certainly is brazen. :lol:

This will be tough to sell to free they certainly don't seem to keen on gong.

Well, they don't have to been to keen on GONG. Really this is about ensuring that the Great Library has no chance of ever falling to BABE. Really, when you think about it, the proposal is a no-premium insurance policy. There's a high deductible if and only if BABE has a real chance of capturing the Library town.

On top of that, if we find that BABE has Education the policy dissolves, right?

Now that I'm writing all this out, it doesn't seem as crazy an idea as I first thought!

For possibly having to gift GONG Astronomy, SABER, GONG, FREE, and The Council are assured that BABE can't use the GL-Elevator trick. The cost is sizeable, but the risk is nil - it's only in effect if BABE is having a successful Military campaign. Besides: the cost of doing nothing could be catastrophic.

Maybe we shouldn't talk about BABE capturing the GL until/if war is declared and BABE doesn't have education. This will cause GONG to be a little more desperate.

That's a good idea dl… but doesn't account for the fact that GONG may give the Great Library to BABE peacefully, in exchange for sharing all the techs they would steal for free. :sad:

...or BABE could extort control of Sugar Mountain (city with the GL) in exchange for peace. That's the nightmare scenario.

We need to get GONG to agree to something that will neutralize the threat of Babe's control of the GL - at least until BABE learns Education.

Could actually give them techs for Sugar mountain.

...or BABE could extort control of Sugar Mountain (city with the GL) in exchange for peace. That's the nightmare scenario.

The nightmare scenario indeed… and also the glaring weakness in my plan. There's nothing to stop GONG from taking Astronomy and then giving up the Great Library anyway under threat from BABE. Sure it'd totally ruin their reputation, but that may seem small potatoes to them when they're staring down the barrel of a BABE invasion force.

However – all-in-all – I think that's unlikely and a promise from GONG is more likely to hold… if they actually agree to it in the first place.

True but once we get astronomy we can help them directly.

It's not a bad idea but perhaps it's too early to talk to GONG about this? I would echo Niklas's concerns about GONG beating us to Cope's. If they are working on 100K they may want every wonder they can get. Of course we could start talking about this and tell them astronomy is still quite a way off for us.

...tell them astronomy is still quite a way off for us.

Nobody's proposing giving them Astronomy as soon as we have it. :nono:

That would be the kicker clause to work out - when to give it? It's in Gong's interest to get it right away, it's in our interest to not have to give it.

I think the scenario I was envisioning is promising to give Gong tech ONLY if BABE is attacking. If they're not, why would we give them tech?

Do we have a prebuild for cops yet?

Do we have a prebuild for cops yet?

No, but it's looking like we'd start it in The Chamber soon (next turn?).

That would probaly be ideal. If gong already has a prebuild it is likely they will get it.

Right now I feel that anything we could offer them for the GL destruction will be less than what BABE can offer them for two turns of GL-renting... :mischief:

A deal with BABE would also save the culture TGL and other buildings gave that town - and I think TGL will again provide culture after they reacquired the town, right? :hmm:

Babe coudl sell off the improvements.

If gong already has a prebuild it is likely they will get it.

I wouldn't write off our chances on getting Copernicus quite so easily.
GONG still has to research astronomy on their own, they won't get education for 2 more turns, and their research rate can't be too great in a Feudal government that just got done whipping a bunch of citizens for temples.

However, this does underline the fact that it will be imperative for us to get started asap on pre-building Copernicus in The Chamber.
But I believe that's already been decided, so I'll stop :deadhorse:

Hilarious new letter from GONG
(sent to both FREE and us)

Title of the e-mail: Thanks for Theology... Care to deal for the lower tier?

Hiya Team Free and GW, Council Ambassador,

Currently we're stuck in a bit of a bind w/ the Babes regarding cooperation w/ others on techs but there's nothing prohibiting us from reaching a deal w/ the FC Axis over how we would benefit from our Great Gong Library should you two decide to swap the lower tier techs before you grace us with Education.

Regards,

Gong Ambassador jb
:lol: I don't even know what to make of this! What are they saying?!?
"Please trade Invention/Gunpowder before Education. We have nothing to offer you but a pretty please." :lol:

EDIT: Of course, maybe this is our chance to offer to swap Invention before Education in exchange for promises on the GreatLibraryElevator? I dunno.

I like this that they also won't build cop's. Invention but not gunpowder.

Well, could just play it straight and ask them what they have in mind. I'm not quite sure what they mean by being in a bind with BABE regarding cooperation with others on techs. Does that mean they have a tech deal with BABE? :confused: Maybe it just means they've been imbibing too much of their favorite beverage?

:hmm: Sounds like BABE has insisted on trading restrictions that GONG is not happy about.

I really don't see how we fit into their calculation.

The smoothest way to respond is to ask for clarification.

ps - aren't we supposed to be sharing all of this with FREE, according to our Treaty?

I don't believe our treaty directly covers sharing communication... but it is good form. They got this letter also, so it's not like it's a secret. :)

I propose we send a reply, and CC FREE on it.
I don't think GONG is really proposing anything... just on a fishing expidition. Still, here's my proposed response:

Dear jb and all GONGlings,

Why dear! If we had known you wanted Theology, you could have just asked! No need to steal these things, we’re always happy to lend our neighbors a cup of sugar, a cube of butter, or some of our advanced and secret knowledge.

We’re pleased to learn that we’re so close to FREE that we’re now an Axis! Were you aware of this FREE? Good news, I’d say! :thumbsup:

As for these other lower level techs you speak of… did you have a proposal in mind? While we’re always fans of vague and thinly-veiled fishing expeditions… The Council would also be happy to entertain any proposals you’d like to offer.
Hard for us to say, since we’re not sure what kind of…er… “bind”… the BABE’s have you in! :blush:

All the Best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

P.S. Hello FREE! :wavey:


EDIT: SENT! to GONG gmail and FREE gmail

and then send a quick note to just FREE

Please ignore our ramblings to GONG… thought it'd be best to feel them out a little and see if we can’t throw them off the trail a bit. :)

EDIT: SENT to FREE gmail

It's, as always, an excellent letter.

Excellent! Please go ahead and send it! :thumbsup:

Surely Gong didn't expect to get anything other than theo and education from the library did they?

So they say they have some restrictive tech trading deal with Babe, might be worth mentioning that Babe approached both Free and ourselves about trading techs and co-research, this may have been done with the knowledge of Gong but then again it may not have been :mischief:

Yes, I agree with Aigburth's (or Aigburth' ? I always had problems with the genitive 's) suggestion. It might make Gong suspicious about Babe, which is always a good thing. But it might also make them suspicious about us trying to drive them apart from babe. I think we must know that risk, and decide if we are able to take it. We don't want an overly hostile Gong, do we?

I think the General's letter is good. Trying to drive a wedge between GONG and BABE is always a good idea but it just doesn't seem to fit into this letter as written. We'd have to change the letter's tone quite a bit.

yeah - that's a tough call. I think that's a good bomb to try to drop on GONG later, but I don't think this letter is exactly the place.

I'm now sending this letter, as is, to GONG and to FREE.
:salute:

For the record, it's Aigburth's. An apostrophe is never alone, but it is sometimes the S is moved infront of the apostrophe, as when the word already ends in an S: The police confiscated the twins' guns.

Essentially, it is sort of an elision, or contraction, from twins's. :)

Quick response from GONG…
Quite a bit more transparent this time:


Haha! Very good.

We actually would like all your techs in exchange for a beer, one of Bug's songs, and Gong goodwill but I don't think that currency is quite so valuable that you would be willing to make that deal.

Sorry about the axis reference. I guess that does sound a bit militaristic, and not in a good way. I just wanted to hurry things along because a deal cannot be made without both Team FREE's and The Council's cooperation via the, as you put it, Spybary. And it's not a secret that our path into the MIddle Ages w/ the Babes was right behind Team FREE and The Council. BTW, anyone seen SABER?

The bind is that our current agreement w/ the Babes does not allow us to consort w/ others on tech w/o running it past the Babes. The Spybary gives us the opportunity to skirt that provision and keep w/i the letter of the law while maybe not the spirit.

My fishing expedition is only to see if you're even interested in discussing the matter and what you might find worthwhile. I wasn't too involved in MPDG #1 so I didn't want to toss out any suggestions that would be insulting. Since Team Gong seems to consist of me, Daghie and Cane I'm pretty much flying solo on diplomacy. And Daghie only seems to show up to needle SABER. The one thing I did pick up from last game is that Team KISS would banter back and forth endlessly w/ the Nuts, getting nowhere; while we could all hear MIA's machinery clanking at a fevered pitch. I don't want to banter while Rome burns.

I guess in my mind we can offer lasting peace, agreement to not materially support an aggressor, and futures on luxury trades and technology. All of our attempts to map beyond our continent ended abruptly, repeatedly, so we have little to offer in the way of maps other than our own which I doubt Cane would agree to part with. But I can always ask.

How about Invention for peace for 80 turns & guaranteed luxury trading? For the peace agreement we'll pay you 25% of the current value of Invention, via installments. We're also open to paying more for the peace agreement should any other tech flow our way via the Spybary.

Well, there's a starting position off the top of my pointy-head. Of course if there's no deal to be had prior to Education then we'll need to wait until we're less encumbered to discuss scientific cooperation.

Thanks for the response.

Regards, jb


Soooo – best news is that this makes it sound VERY unlikely that the Great Library Elevator is a real threat. It's probably our best bet to not even bring it up and risk putting the idea in their head!

Their end proposal is a bit confusing, but if I'm reading it right, they're offering us:
1) A very long-term peace deal (better for them than us, with their 100k attempt)
2) A promise to not to materially support BABE in attack us
3) 25% of the current beaker value of Invention … 1188*.25=297 gold
4) Guaranteed luxury trading (which, if possible, they'd probably do anyway)

I'm less than impressed. If we want to keep negotiating, I'd suggest we counter with the following:

The Council:
Gives Invention [indirectly]
Agrees to peace for 40 turns


GONG:
Pays 40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
Agrees to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE. (may opt-out of this clause by paying 60% of the Monopoly Beaker cost on Invention = 792 gold)
Promises to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.


Now – I'm not 100% convinced that we should really trade invention to GONG… but I'm open to the idea if we get a truckload of gold out of it. (Remember, it'll have to be split with FREE)
If we offer this to GONG, we can point out to them that gold is of limited use to them in Feudalism as they already mentioned to us.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

If read closely, the letter explains that GONG cannot ask for Invention directly. They need FREE to trade it to us (or vise versa) so that they acquire it from the Great Spybrary. In return for this 'negligence', GONG will compensate us.

Of course, 'us' means The Council and FREE.

What do we gain? Some 200ish gold, while FREE gains the same amount? :dunno:

From my perspective, we need to be finding ways to advance that DON'T include advancing FREE at the same time - otherwise, it's a wash. FREE is so massively ahead of us in score, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how we're going to overtake them!

We need more friends than enemies now, so it's certainly worth pursuing trades with GONG. But I'm not convinced yet that allowing them to learn Invention is the best path for us just now - even if it does net us ~300 gold.

Advancing without FREE is going to be tricky. We're basically counting on staying equal with them until our Commercial trait advantage can put us over the top in the Modern Era in a space-race fight.

As for GONG – if we trade Invention for gold, we'd be banking on the fact that we can take that gold and turn it into a greater number of beakers (thanks to the ability to do longer deficit research at top speed multiplied by our cheap libraries and universities) than GONG could if they kept the gold. Hence a short-term tech gain by GONG is translated into a longer-term tech advantage over them.

At least that's the theory in General_W's School of Diplomacy and International Chicanery :)

At this particular point in time we don't really want to get ahead of FREE. We still need them in order to outtech the other teams, and will do so for a long time. The things that will set us apart later in the game is the things we need to focus on - such as Sistine, Cope's and Newton's. Having Bach's would have been grand as well, but we can't have everything.

... or can we? Would it be possible to strike a deal so that we can have GONG research Music Theory, giving it to us, and promising not to build Bach? If nothing else, suggesting a deal towards that end would force their hand regarding 100k, seeing if they would care to give up Bach or not. If we made such a deal, we would of course need to compensate FREE with money, but that's a small matter.

Proposed response:

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k. :)

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:
40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE.
Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.


Option B:
60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to BABE.
Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.


Option C:
GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to BABE – but allowing trading of Invention
Treaty agreement to not materially support BABE in an attack on The Council or team FREE.


Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


So… I added option C in there for Niklas, but I’m really not to keen on it. I just don’t see how we’re going to divide that up with FREE… I guess offering them some amount of gold is probably good, as Niklas suggested… but how much gold is Bach’s worth to us?

I also have a hard time picture GONG going for it… so I’m not overly worried about it. IF they did go for it, it’d be pretty great in delaying their path to Astronomy…. Which is part of the reason I doubt they’ll go for it.

Thoughts? Edits?

My best friend is getting married today – so I’ll be off the grid for a while. I’m the best man :) I’ll most likely be around later today though… so go nuts on editing this while I’m gone!
:salute:

How about bundling the clause about not materially aiding BABE (or anyone?) in an attack on FREE or THE COUNCIL with the peace treaty? I don't mean make this clause last only 40 turns but put it in the letter next to the peace treaty and take it out of the three options.

Not sure what MAAP II says about Bach's. I think we should ask for some gold in option C since we'd probably have to pay FREE for the right to funnel invention to GONG.

I would like to point out that it seems an intentional Elevator between BABE and GONG does look like a low risk thing right now. But it is still possible for either BABE or SABER to capture the Spybrary in the future. I for one will only feel safe when everyone had education or the Spybrary is burnt.

Ok – we really need to get this moving.

First my responses to Donsig:

How about bundling the clause about not materially aiding BABE (or anyone?) in an attack on FREE or THE COUNCIL with the peace treaty? I don't mean make this clause last only 40 turns but put it in the letter next to the peace treaty and take it out of the three options.

I see what you’re saying, but it would be awkward to do it that way. It’s structured as “we give” and then GONG gives option A, B, or C. Combining something GONG gives with what we give outside of the 3 options has the potential to make them :crazyeye:

Asking them to not aid ANYONE in attacking us seems unnecessary – but I have no objection to rewording that.


Not sure what MAAP II says about Bach's. I think we should ask for some gold in option C since we'd probably have to pay FREE for the right to funnel invention to GONG.

MAAP II says that we won’t be researching any optional tech wonders, but if we manage to get one, we’ll reach a mutually satisfactory agreement on what to do with it.
Bottom line: FREE has to agree to any plan.


I would like to point out that it seems an intentional Elevator between BABE and GONG does look like a low risk thing right now. But it is still possible for either BABE or SABER to capture the Spybrary in the future. I for one will only feel safe when everyone had education or the Spybrary is burnt.

Couldn’t :agree: more.

I’d like to see this letter go out tomorrow or Wednesday (USA-ST) at the latest.

Version 1.2

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k. :)

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:
40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to BABE.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Option B:
60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to BABE.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Option C:
GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to BABE – but allowing trading of Invention
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council



I further prose that we BCC FREE on this letter and send the following quick note to FREE as well:

Dear FREE allies,

As you can see – we’ve taken your advice and made use of the miracle of the BCC. You can read GONG’s letter to us, and our response to it.
Rest assured, if GONG responds favorably to any of the options we’re offering them, we’ll split the rewards with you.

We believe the gold would be a great boon for both of us. It may help GONG in the short-term… but they’re likely to trade with BABE for Invention anyway. Plus, thanks to our scientific traits, we can turn any gold from GONG into a much larger number of beakers, giving us both an advantage in the long-run… and this game is going to be a “long run game!”

If GONG happens to go for the Music/Bach option, which we think is unlikely, I’m sure we can be creative about a way to split that benefit.

All the best,
Your brothers in Blueish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts? Approvals?

I like option c. Lets give them that one. I don't like giving them the choice.

I don't like the idea to build Bach's... I'm not wonder addicted enough for multiplayer I guess :D

But I like the thought that GONG annoys BABE by "trading" for invention (if they do and it's not a bluff :shifty: ).
And I like the thought to commit GONG to research something useless. :D

And I like the idea to do any trade with GONG.

And I like the idea to offer them three options. Makes them feel better and gives us further stuff to think about when we try to understand their decision :crazyeye:

And finally I like all three options. :thumbsup:

I think they are very good letters. :)

I concur. They can be sent as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. I'm fine with all.

I'm not sure if we should even give them the option to sell or even give the tech to free, but I'm sure there is a very good reason for that so go ahead and send it!

I don't like the idea to build Bach's... I'm not wonder addicted enough for multiplayer I guess :D

But I like the thought that GONG annoys BABE by "trading" for invention (if they do and it's not a bluff :shifty: ).
And I like the thought to commit GONG to research something useless. :D

And I like the idea to do any trade with GONG.

And I like the idea to offer them three options. Makes them feel better and gives us further stuff to think about when we try to understand their decision :crazyeye:

And finally I like all three options. :thumbsup:
It doesn't matter if Bachs is worthless to us. It's one of the most valuable wonders in the game to them. I think it has what 6 culture per trun. Over the course of 400 turn (Without it even growing.)It is over 2400 culture.

I also like to make a deal with GONG, in an attempt to drive a wedge between GONG and BABE. But I am not convinced that GONG/BABE is not playing a game with us, i.e., pretending to be drifting apart to make us show our cards. For one thing, they could be trying to learn the nature of the bonds between FREE and us.

I thought GONG was weak compared to us? How does that rhyme with their so-called hordes of Gallics?

In option A I would also exclude a trade with SABER. Same for option C.

Option C needs a clause that the MT research should be fast, i.e., within 15 turns or so.

I want the gold payment in immediate exchange for the tech, and I would mention this explicitly. I don't like GONG's idea of paying in installments.

It's a common misconception that the best way to get 100k culture is to build wonders. It almost never pays off, there are far faster ways. Bach's is 6 cpt for 600 shields, that's 100s/c. In comparison a temple gives 2 cpt for only 30 shields (they are religious), that's only 15s/c. And you can only have one Bach's whereas you can have as many temples as you have cities... and from the map we just got from FREE, it seems like the GONGers have ICSed like crazy! So yes, I find it increasingly likely that GONG is trying for 100k. The Celts are the perfect civ for it too, and Feudalism... everything indicates 100k.

But regarding Bach's, I often find it invaluable when doing tech games. It's the single best wonder for a tech game IMO, except of course those that boost research directly (Cope, Newton, SETI, Internet, ToE). When your towns start growing towards 20, every single extra happy face you can get is really valuable, and particularly so with a wonder that gives +1 content in all towns, even the semi-corrupt ones that might otherwise need a higher slider level.

However, I find it highly unlikely that GONG would go for that option. They would research a tech that costs more for them (since Invention would be researched at a non-monopoly rate, 1056 beakers, against the 1200 beakers for Music Theory). But no harm in trying.

:agree: very well said Niklas. Excellent analysis.

I'm going to make the changes zyxy suggested [expanding the trade restrictions to everyone], and send these off.
(I don't think we should put a time limit on their researching Music Theory… if they want to stall research there while we pull further and further ahead, so much the better! They can't trade Music theory around anyway.)

Good discussion everyone!

Version 1.3
Title: Re: Thanks for Theology… Care to deal for the lower tier?

Dear jb,

We appreciate the candor in your last letter. Your proposal isn’t very appealing to us – but it may very well serve as a starting point for more meaningful talks.

The super-long peace treaty we really see as more of a boon to you than to us. The Council Intelligence Agency has made note of your jump to Feudalism, whipping campaign, and rapid rise in culture. Let’s just say they put 2 and 2 together and came up with about 100k. :)

As for the gold you offered us on the tech – 25% of current/trade value seems awfully stingy, especially for a Feudal government that, as you’ve noted, has less need of gold.

We’ve crafted 3 Alternate Proposals for you to consider.

In all cases, our offer is the same – We’ll give the secret of Invention [indirectly, if needed], and agree to a guaranteed peace treaty for 40 turns.

In return, we’d like:
Option A:
40% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 528 gold
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Invention to anyone.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Option B:
60% of the Monopoly Beaker Cost of Invention = 792 gold
NO restrictions on selling or trading Invention to anyone.
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Option C:
GONG researches Music Theory immediately after getting Education, and then immediately upon discovery gives it to The Council
GONG agrees to forgo building of JS Bach’s Cathedral
Treaty agreement to not then sell or trade Music to anyone – but allowing trading of Invention
Treaty agreement to not attack or materially support anyone in an attack on The Council or team FREE for 40 turns.


Any of those catch your fancy?

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


And the note sent to FREE:
Title: GONG Diplomacy Update

Dear FREE allies,

As you can see – we’ve taken your advice and made use of the miracle of the BCC. You can read GONG’s letter to us, and our response to it.
Rest assured, if GONG responds favorably to any of the options we’re offering them, we’ll split the rewards with you.

We believe the gold would be a great boon for both of us. It may help GONG in the short-term… but they’re likely to trade with BABE for Invention anyway. Plus, thanks to our scientific traits, we can turn any gold from GONG into a much larger number of beakers, giving us both an advantage in the long-run… and this game is going to be a “long run game!”

If GONG happens to go for the Music/Bach option, which we think is unlikely, I’m sure we can be creative about a way to split that benefit.

All the best,
Your brothers in Blueish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Both have been SENT!
:salute:

Had a short chat with jb from GONG, and then got this letter from him.
Nothing substantial in the chat that wasn't in this letter – I was just keeping up the smiling face The Council presents to the world. (I generally don't post those friendly chit-chats, hopefully that's ok)


Hiya General_W,

As I noted in our IM, the proposals have been posted and we'll see what the other Gongers are up for.

Glad that you found the offer lacking yet a starting point. Seems like I might be cut out for this job after all.

I applaud your math. [note from G_W: he's referring to our "put 2 and 2 together and got 100k" comment] It shouldn't be a secret given the nature of the info we can glean from the saves, which for the record I have always hated, but you were the first to notice our improvements. The Pyramids and Feud go well w/ each other but the populace is getting mighty pissed off. No shocker there.

Because of the nature of our builds Option C seems the most appealing to me but I'm sure Cane will set me right.

Best Regards to The Council.

jb


Anyway – Option C! :wow: I wouldn't have guessed!
Guess we better start thinking about what we want to offer FREE in exchange for letting us build BACH.... just in case KillerCane agrees with jb!
Like Niklas, I tend to view that wonder as mighty handy for a science victory attempt.

Tell them they shouldn't of psst off gong. Seriously though one of our wonders seems fair and just. Lets offer them Sistine's.

I was thinking more along the lines of 100 gold? 200 gold?
Really, the way MAAP II is structured, you could look at us giving FREE gold as moving money from one pocket into the other… but I doubt FREE will think of that! :lol:

I have another wild idea though… what if we offered to build the Theory of Evolution for the Alliance? I imagine we'll have a MAPP III deal with FREE to take us through the Industrial Ages – we could just offer:
"as a part of a MAPP III deal, The Council agrees to take on the duty of building the 600 shield Theory of Evolution, then sharing the 2 bonus techs with FREE independent of whatever MAAP III tech arrangement we work out. FREE would save 600 shields and enjoy the benefit of two free techs without having to match them with any beakers in trade."

I personally think 600 shields would be a bargain for the +2:) in every city.
(or maybe that should be 1,200 shields… counting that we still have to build Bach!)

Anyone else have any ideas?

Yeah I like the gold actually. One pocket to the other. Remind them that this will also drive a spike between Babe and Gong. I like bringing Gong closer to us until the mid industrial age.

That is in fact a lot of shields we have to build. We should simply tell free that we have to build Bach's by hand, and that the science boost we get from it (well, indirectly) will benefit them aswell, as we are still in the Maap.

I say we don't remind them about science. I say we try to play it off as a simple waste. Or how about we get a prebuild, announce it later and say we can't find anything fair so lets race to it.

:lol: - well, that'd be the aggressive position :)
I think even FREE would see through that ploy, unfortunately.

I'm thinking our best bet may be to put on our most smiley salesman face, and see if we can't convince FREE to take some modest gold. I suppose we can always raise our offer from there – as long as it's not so low as to be insulting to them.

Something like this:

Dear FREE allies,

We just received this back from GONG:
Not really! This is an Example! "We'd like option C"

We're really surprised that they would choose this option, but we think it's very good news for our alliance! :thumbsup:

First of all – this thwarts a trade between BABE and GONG. Not only does our alliance profit from a deal that BABE/GONG almost certainly would have done anyway, but there's a decent chance that BABE will be really annoyed and we can drive a wedge between them.

Secondly, we divert GONG off to researching a tech that doesn't do them any good, and doesn't get them any closer to the Industrial Ages… allowing us to expand our lead.
:clap:

Now – since we can't share Bach's Cathedral – we'd like to propose that The Council gift 150 gold to FREE for the right to build Bach's if we can find a place to spare the 600 shields! :eek:
This will help us run a higher science rate (slightly less luxury slider needed) which certainly helps both of us in the alliance. Also, we woouldn't then need to send the Music tech to you- further hiding the extent of our cooperation.

What do you think?

Your Brothers in Bluish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


… course, GONG may just come back and decline any deal totally… but we can dream! And it's probably best to be ready for option C just in case (especially so, since jb indicated he liked it)
Thoughts?

Take out the Purple smile face it makes it seem that we are obviously planning on building it.

I think we should hold of on telling FREE anything. GONG hasn't officially chosen an option yet and may want to back out of C.

I'm also not too keen on building ToE for FREE for free. Let's not give away so much just yet!

I'd like to offer them to build ToE, it offers us two more chances to draw an SGL! :)

Also, we woouldn't then need to send the Music tech to you- further hiding the extent of our cooperation.

Bolded are spelling mistakes or typos. Actually, I'm not sure about the second one, but I just bolded it aswell so you can decide wether that's correct or not.

Otherwise, seems like a very good letter to me!

Why would we even consider to build the TOE for FREE for, uhm, free? I consider that an entirely different subject which has nothing to do with us being able to build Bach. The 150 gold, or maybe a little bit more, is more than enough for them.

edit: Oh, a very important thing, please don't send that untill GONG has confirmed they take option C. And then just edit in the exact quote what GONG said us in the quote part, and send it :thumbsup:

Of course, if gong chooses another option, we'll have to throw this excellent letter into the garbage can and start over again... :sad:

Yeah, I too think we should build ToE, but not as compensation for this. I also agree with cubsfan, the :eek: guy makes us look very guilty, even if we aren't. ;)

I would prefer not to give out gold: we need it and FREE is going fast enough as it is. A promise to build ToE is perhaps better, and might even be overpayment...

Do we really like deal C btw? If this gets in place, we obviously need some quick deals with BABE and SABER on selling Invention, before GONG does. Otherwise they end up making money from our research...

C is good if we want to build Bach's. I don't think we'd be paying gold, would we? I thought we'd structure it so GONG gives us money as part of C and then we turn around and hand that gold to FREE so we can have the undisputed right to build Bach's.

As for ToE, I'm not against us building it - I just think we should be compensated properly (in MAAP III) for doing it instead of paying FREE to let us build it.

Note: it was never my intention to send that proposed letter.
My intention was exclusively to kick start discussion on option C, which I knew would be the most controversial option, should GONG choose it.

So no one panic about me sending it… I realize that GONG hasn't agreed to anything yet :)

@Donsig – we will NOT be getting any gold, should GONG choose option C. It's a pretty fair swap of beakers, straight across… and when you combine that with their promise to NOT build Bach… it's actually a very good deal for us. I can't believe they're even seriously thinking about option C… let alone if we try to get gold from them on it also.

@zyxy – I agree. We should move quickly to try to sell Invention to BABE and Saber if GONG chooses option C… and I think we should try to sell Invention at crazy low prices to be sure we undercut any deals that GONG offers them. I'd propose 400 gold (1/3 the monopoly beaker cost) or "100 gold and your world map" to both teams. Thoughts on that?

@ Niklas and Cubsfan – ok, ok! The ":eek:" face is out!

@sirdanilot – right on both counts. Thanks! :salute:

Regarding the Theory of Evolution… Obviously, since I proposed the idea, I think there's merit to us offering to build it for the Alliance. I don't think offering the 2 bonus techs without compensation is unreasonable… but maybe we could just offer to only count 1 of the techs? The problem with this idea is that it's just messy. Messy to explain, messy to balance. I'd love to hear any more concrete proposals that people have on how to balance & explain this one.

Also, not to open a can of worms, but let's not forget that we've got the Hoover Dam wonder hanging out there in Industrial Age. How do you compensate the other team for losing that one? I don't know that Hoover really belongs in this discussion – I just wanted to mention it in case it sparks a brilliant idea in someone's head.

So.. IF IF IF – and only if – GONG agrees to option C, here are two optional responses to FREE:

FREEsponse Option Gold:

Dear FREE allies,

We just received this back from GONG:
Not really! This is an Example! "We'd like option C"

We're really surprised that they would choose this option, but we think it's very good news for our alliance! :thumbsup:

First of all – this thwarts a trade between BABE and GONG. Not only does our alliance profit from a deal that BABE/GONG almost certainly would have done anyway, but there's a decent chance that BABE will be really annoyed and we can drive a wedge between them.

Secondly, we divert GONG off to researching a tech that doesn't do them any good, and doesn't get them any closer to the Industrial Ages… allowing us to expand our lead.
:clap:

Now – since we can't share Bach's Cathedral – we'd like to propose that The Council gift 150 gold to FREE for the right to build Bach's if we can find a place to spare the 600 shields!
This will help us run a higher science rate (slightly less luxury slider needed) which certainly helps both of us in the alliance. Also, we wouldn't then need to send you the Music tech - further hiding the extent of our cooperation.

What do you think?

Your Brothers in Bluish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council




FREEsponse Option ToE:

Dear FREE allies,

We just received this back from GONG:
Not really! This is an Example! "We'd like option C"

We're really surprised that they would choose this option, but we think it's very good news for our alliance! :thumbsup:

First of all – this thwarts a trade between BABE and GONG. Not only does our alliance profit from a deal that BABE/GONG almost certainly would have done anyway, but there's a decent chance that BABE will be really annoyed and we can drive a wedge between them.

Secondly, we divert GONG off to researching a tech that doesn't do them any good, and doesn't get them any closer to the Industrial Ages… allowing us to expand our lead.
:clap:

Now – since we can't share Bach's Cathedral – we'd like to propose a semi-crazy idea to balance it out.
What if we agreed, as a part of a MAPP III deal, that The Council will take on the duty of building the 600 shield Theory of Evolution, then sharing the 2 bonus techs with FREE independent of whatever MAAP III tech arrangement we work out. FREE would save 600 shields and still enjoy the benefit of two free techs without having to match them with any beakers in trade.

What do you think?

Your Brothers in Bluish,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


About the time we finally reach a consensus on this, you know GONG is just going to come back and agree to Option A… or nothing at all! :lol:

Further thoughts, ideas?

Get rid of the exclamation point after the 600 gold bit. It has the same effect.

Ok, I admit it. You have lost me on this topic.:sad:

To me, ToE is really just worth 600(?) shields, not two techs. In the early IA, there is little use for shields, as our infra should be finished by then, and the defense situation should have become easier if anything until the arrival of bombers/marines.
So IMO building ToE is not a high price for Bach's. Of course, there's no need to mention this to FREE: it would be much better if they think that ToE is really worth two expensive techs. Kuningas will of course know better if he's still around, but the others may be fooled. If they believe us, we might get something more than just the right to Bach's, though I'm not sure what to ask for...

There is a great advantage to building ToE: the team that builds it will be first to Electronics and therefore be in position to build the Dam. I cannot think of any proper compensation for the Dam, its power is so huge. The only thing would be the Internet, but we may need that as well, to kick off our GA...
Perhaps we can "forget" the Dam, but FREE will probably bring it up for MAAP 3.

All in all, I would very much prefer to build ToE as "compensation" for Bach's, rather than give gold.

If we get Bach's we should probably reconsider Sistine's, as we may not need it anymore.

Excellent Analysis. :agree:
That settles it in my mind. I'd also vote for the ToE option - if we get to choose.
Now where's GONG?!?

Re: Hoover... maybe the best plan is to just leave that up to a race - making our building of ToE very important no matter what, so that we can time things perfectly?

Proposal for immediate release to GONG:


Dear GONG,

I'm afraid we can't wait much longer to hear your response. The wheels of state must grind on without you I'm afraid!

Please respond ASAP on if you have any interest in a trade for Invention, or prepare to find yourselves with knowledge of Education squirreled away in the false bottoms of those beer cans your spies smuggle things around in. :)

Hopefully there's still time to work something out.
If not, we'll take your continued silence as an answer.

All the Best,
Your friends across the pond…
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


EDIT: SENT to GONG gmail
And BCCd to FREE

Thoughts?

I like it. Nice sloppy words. :thumbsup:

Good letter!
We're probably not really interested in this anymore anyway, so maybe we should not wait long. Astro could be of some use to us when FREE gets it.

Not much activity here, but as zyxy noted, we're probably rapidly running out of interest in this.
I'm sending it off now!

:salute:

EDIT: and sent a copy to FREE as well.

I believe we should declare war on gong. Now just here me out. they have and embassy. So they could easily investigate our cities and sell the info the babe.

It's a good point but I would not consider doing this until BABE actually lands.

well, BABE has landed.

Can they investigate our cities? Do they KNOW our cities? What message do we send GONG?

This is what i posted in for SABER/FREE, but they are allies.

War has come to the world of Meet!! Perfidious BABE has landed military forces on the sacred lands of The Council, while a formal peace treaty is in place and without a formal declaration of war!! We will not tolerate this trespass on our lands and will declare on BABE and destroy their initial invasion force - we understand that you have a tech treaty with BABE, but you should know that BABE has proven themselves unreliable. We must ask what your intentions towards us are in this war with BABE.

I don't think this is the time to try to play hard ball with GONG. Better stick to informing them of what has transpired, including that BABE cannot be trusted to uphold a treaty. Scrap the last sentence at least.

We need to take a friendly stance towards GONG. Last I knew they were weak to us so I doubt we have much to fear from them. We might want to ask if they're interested in taking the fight to BABE once astronomy is general knowledge.

What we need to do is get education from FREE so we can obsolete the Spybrary as far as GONG is concerned. Then we can negotiate a sale of astronomy that includes an alliance against BABE as part of the payment.

Perhaps we would be better off not taking to Gong for now??? I am sure that BABE told them that they are landing...

Nevermind..

What we need to do is get education from FREE so we can obsolete the Spybrary as far as GONG is concerned.

I would delay this as long as possible, to slow their research. And if we sell Astro to GONG, I fear we will see Gallics on our shores as well.

GONG does not seem interested in armed conflict and once they see what we do to BABE they will think twice about coming to our island paradise. We'll have to see how the war plays out. If this does turn out to be a short war wherein we can still research at top speed then following your plan makes sense. By the time we get chemistry we'll have a better idea of how the war will progress.

...and once they see what we do to BABE they will think twice about coming to our island paradise.

You seem quite confident that we will solve this conflict easily... :dubious:
I'd rather see what comes after those units we see there. :mischief:

I doubt it will be as easy as other Council members do. But I am confident that by the time GONG got an invasion up and ready we'll have dealt BABE some serious blows. So I am still not worried about GONG being able to research astronomy a bit easier.

I am reasonably sure that war with BABE will either be easy (because WHOMP is mailing it in) or hard (cause they have a lot of forces) - I do not believe that BABE can defeat us.

What's easy about whomp mailing it in.

Letter from GONG
Sent 5 days ago at the start of my vacation (sorry!)


Sorry guys. I wish I had a creative interesting reply but I just don't have the bandwidth for it. Far too much RL on top of the start of school w/ three kids in three different sports.

I've asked for another Gonger to pick up the diplo role for all the other teams. It wouldn't hurt to PM killer or Daghie.

I don't think a tech deal for invention was in the cards. I wanted to go option 3 but in the end there was no consensus because there was little conversation.

jb


So yeah – I agree with what's been said here.
We should stay friendly with GONG, even though it seem really unlikely they'll ever attack us… they have admitted they are going for a cultural victory after all. Warmongering would be highly counter-productive for them.

I think waiting to see what shakes loose in the next couple turns on the war front makes sense before we respond with anything.

I highly-highly doubt that GONG will agree to do anything militarily against BABE, for the same reason I find it highly doubtful they would attack us. BABE is an even harder target than we are, and I can't imagine astronomy changing their mind about that.

well, what i meant by that was that if WHOMP were just going through the motions, then he would likely just land consecutive stacks of MW, which is easier to deal with.

Someone was wondering where GONG was, exactly, in the tech tree. We now have an answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh1BpOE-ipI :gripe:

:wow: - well, that's better than them building Sistine, Right? for us anyway.... FREE will no doubt be upset.

And off topic - man, I really think Civ2's wonder movies were the best.

So can we figure out if they researched Invention themselves? I'll be annoyed if they got it from the Great Library. :mad:

They most likely researched it on their own. They must know that we weren't going to give it to them, and they also know they would get Theo+Edu at some point, so why research those? I also find it highly likely that they have started on GP now, so in a turn or two would be a good time to get Edu, since they likely won't switch to Astro then when they've already started something else.

:agree: That is, I think, the most likely scenario.

Only other possibility is that BABE researched it, granting the tech to GONG. This seems less likely as BABE undoubtedly has tremendous support costs. Still, BABE may have done it in exchange for getting Theo/Edu from GONG once they get those for free. [and in any case, if this is true, it hardly matters if GONG got Invention from the GL or in direct trade from BABE]

However, GONG doesn't seem overly eager to do BABE any favors – but most importantly is the timing. GONG evidently timed their discovery of invention to very precisely match their build of Leos… suggesting that they were in control of their research pace.

I'd say this is good news. It further reduces BABE's trading options to ever catch back up in the game, provided we can win this war.

Word in from GONG!

Hiya Council,

As we all know the attempted tech deal was pre-empted by Cane's need to self research Invention in order to dump a pre-build into Leo's. I wanted to tell you earlier that that was the case and the tech deal had been shot in the foot but I didn't want to give away our rush to Leo's in case you had similar designs.

We here in Gongdom continue to work on our culture as our rabid partners seems stuck on full tilt. We're not getting much in the way of info from the Babes but it seems as if you're exacting a heavy price on them otherwise I think they would be more forthcoming. The other difficulty w/ getting any info out of the Babes is that I think their team now consists of Wotan and a part-time Whomp. All others have gone into hibernation.

Anyway, I have nothing much to say other than "Hello!" I just wanted to keep the lines of communication open.

Regards,

jb


That's nice… I guess :)

Actually – it is pretty good to know that BABE is indeed still on a full-tilt war setting.
It's not over yet gentlemen! :old:

I propose we send back an equally nice but empty letter. There's really no opportunity for us to do anything with GONG, and they seem still committed to that alliance. :sad:


Dear jb and the traveling GONG show band,

Good to hear from you. No worries about the Invention thing. We totally understand, and figured that was pretty much the case when we saw you had built Leos. Nice work on that, by the way! :thumbsup:

Our door is always open anytime you want to talk about something. I don't suppose you'd be interested in a trade for Education? … Oh… yeah… the whole Spybrary thing… nevermind ;) You could have just asked, you know! :lol:

Hope all is well in the land of GONG,

Warmly,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

EDIT: Sent to GONG gmail 10/3/07


Thoughts? Better ideas?

'tis fine with me.

I'm not so sure they are still committed to that alliance - if anything, it seems like they may be fishing for a new partner :dubious:

They might be fishing for a partner but what do we have to offer each other? I can't think of much and they probably can't either - and that's why the empty letter. The proposed reply looks fine to me.

A fair amount of diplomacy is keeping lines of communication open.

:agree: I'll send this off then.

Maybe we want to make sure that GONG is aware of this:

GONG and BABE do not necessarily have to agree on BABE taking TGL.

If BABE is smart (and desperate) and catches GONG off guard they might land in one turn by surprise and fight their way to Sugar Mountain in the next turn.

I don't know about GONG's naval recon but if BABE galleys approach with like 8 galleys and 14 MW plus 2 pikes, that would be easily enough to fight their way to that town in one single turn.

GONG would not raze Sugar Mountain after the landing and they won't have time to do so the turn after. :nono:

It would be quite a coup. :groucho:

Should we ask GONG whether they have prepared some naval early warning system?

Good thing of such a coup however would be the massive blow this would give to GONG's 100k plans... :p

Well, it's a dilemma. If we talk to GONG about a possible capture of Sugar Mountain we may tip them off to a Spybrary Elevator ploy they haven't yet considered. Have they already figured out the possibility? Has BABE thought about it yet? We've been aware of it. IIRC, Chamnix is aware of it and now that Kuningas is back, FREE is aware of it. Would Wotan the Warmonger have thought of it by now?

I don't have any answers here but I know we have to face this situation one way or another. Now, if GONG loses the Spybrary city they also lose any other wonders there. Do we have any intel on what's there? If they are truly going for 100k they may be in the process of building another wonder there. That would be good for us.

SABER is now trading with GONG, correct? Perhaps we'd be better off talking to SABER first to about this. Maybe they could give us some intel on GONG?

I guess I wouldn't write to GONG yet.

I cannot imagine any Civ player in such a situation - behind in tech pace, other civ builds TGL - not thinking about scenarios how and when to acquire that town... :shake:

It is just essential thinking in any come-from-behind-setting of this game.

I'm sure BABE has been aware of this possibility for quite a while.
Maybe GONG not, because they have TGL and may fail to adopt the role of an invader... :rolleyes:

Well, then it is necessary for us to inform GONG of the possibility.

But we should try to phrase things in ways that GONG will understand: Hey - If you're really going for 100k you have already realized that you can't afford to lose Sugar Mountain, so we're sure you've garrisoned that town against a possible Babe invasion.

btw- Here are the stat's on Babe's invasion of Coucil property. We trust you can muster an effective defense. Thanks!

Well they can afford to lose that town (if its only that town), especially if they get some techs like Steam and Nationalism or money that always help with a 100k attempt...

That single town lost for a couple of turns will only give them an extra turn, that will be easily accomplished by the enhanced rushing abilities coming in with these two techs (draft and disband far away immediately).

The accumulated culture of the town does not get lost to GONG, not sure whether wonders continue to generate culture for its builders after recapture?

So we should be careful when talking to them... :hmm:

I don't think we should go probing Saber for info on gong. We aren't their number one ally anymore. gong is better friends now. That would be like Saber probing us on free.

We could trade two luxuries to GONG. :wow:
Should we consider negotiation? :hmm:

There's no trade embargo against GONG in order, right? :groucho:

I see no harm in making an offer. It would be nice to get some gold.

Or even better: two luxuries? :hmm:

How much gold would we take for a luxury? :confused:
CA2 tells me 10% on the luxury slider make ~35gpt.
two luxuries make 10% lux, right?
That would mean a lux equals ~17gpt for us, correct?

I'd never pay 20gpt at this stage for a lux to the AI, but I know they paid to me... :D

Multiplayer veterans, step up!

I would be surprised if Gong don't have 2 luxuries to trade and I think this is what we should try to acquire.

We might have to move fast as Free have a lux in common with us so it is possible they could trade it to Gong before we do.

We might have to move fast as Free have a lux in common with us so it is possible they could trade it to Gong before we do.
Well that would not fit their plans to attack GONG but it could indeed be part of a deceive :hmm:

Anybody dare to draft a diplomatic note? :groucho:
Don't know if the General is available? :hmm:

Hail [whatever it is that gong calls themselves]!

Our wisemen have recently devised a way of safely traversing the twisted seas, allowing trading ships to travel between our two nations!

We would gladly sell you our [two luxuries] for a fair price. What say you?

Hopefully some of your high culture will rub off on us rubes ;)

-The Coucil


How's that for a start?

Greetings GONGers!

It has been ages since we last spoke but a new era has dawned opening new possibilities. We are no longer as isolated as we once were and this allows for us to trade goods between our two great countries. We have precious gems and splendid dyes to offer you that would surely make your citizens happy beyond belief. Perhaps you have items laying about that you could trade to us for these things. Please make us an offer. :)

The COUNCIL

They don't have gems?!? :confused:

EDIT: Babe also does not have gems.

Let's keep in mind that gold they spend on resources is gold they can't use towards their victory attempt. Of course, the resources will help them, on the other hand...

I'm not against taking gold for luxes. Loves your comment about their culture rubbing off on us Peter.

I would prefer luxuries as they are more flexible. Gpt would reduce our deficit and allow research at 70% for longer. Luxuries would hopefully allow us to lower the lux slider, we then have the choice to either run science at a higher percentage for the same deficit or keep science at 70% for a reduced deficit.

Any thoughts on which proposed note is better? Seems something with the best of both might be good. We could send Peter's since he puts the ball in their court to make an offer.

At some point, we are going to build caths in our major cities.

This will give us 8 content, before luxes (1 born, temple, 3 caths *2). To get to 12, we need 4 luxes, which we get by our 2 natives, plus 1 from FREE + a market. So we won't NEED more luxes.... however, if we build hospitals, we will need more luxes.

That's the reason to get luxes.

The reason to not get luxes is because GONG, currently, has a victory condition lined up and it will probably hurt them more to give GPT than luxes.

overall, I think we should get luxes.

Well, now should we add something asking about the green ships we saw?

We should.

And we could tell them that we sent our Dyes and Gems on this turn 154 and that we'd like to get something in exchange for it.
That we'd favor a lux and 20gpt or alike... :rolleyes:

I hope I got this without-accept-thing right: :blush:
I sent without accept so they can add something on their side and send back with accept so I can seal the deal, right?

Native speakers, step up!

Yes, you got the without-accept-thing right.

So who will be brave enough to send a message in the General's absence?

I'll send something.

How about:

"Dear Cultured Ones:

We look upon the fair designs of your national galleys and caravels with awe as they brave the ocean depths near our land. We hope they are safe out there - we offer sanctuary to any of your brave sailors who do not survive the treacherous waters.

We do wish to inquire as to the intentions of these sailors so far from home - our experiences have led us to some paranoia, as the last nation to sail near our waters landed armed forces on our homeland. We hope that your brave sailors are merely interested in exploring our watery world."

What do you guys think?

I used awe because Civ Assist says we are in awe of their culture. Actually, we seem to be right in the middle of the culture bar - we are impressed with free, saber is impressed with us and BABE is in awe of us

"Dear Cultured Ones:

We look upon the fair designs of your national galleys and caravels with awe as they brave the ocean depths near our land. We hope they are safe out there - we offer sanctuary to any of your brave sailors who do not survive the treacherous waters.

We do wish to inquire as to the intentions of these sailors so far from home - our experiences have led us to some paranoia, as the last nation to sail near our waters landed armed forces on our homeland. We hope that your brave sailors are merely interested in exploring our watery world."

Sounds good to me. Is to barve the ocean depth common (poetic) language?

We should however add some sentence about the initiated trade.
We sent gems and dyes this turn and would like to receive something.
Another luxury and money would be best. 20gpt for a start?
Two luxuries would be fair, also.

Are we willing to allow them to map our coastline? If so, then the letter is OK. If not, we should request that they withdraw under the threat of Frigates :evil:

I think we should go ahead and let them map our coast. We don’t want to start a war right now (I’m pretty sure :) ) and realistically, we can’t stop them short of that. As long as they stay outside of our borders, they won’t learn a lot of great value anyway. Best to stay friendly, imo.

Here’s my stab at a letter:
(building on AutoTellers excellent start…

Dear Cultured Ones of the Great Gong Show,

We’ve recently had the privilege of gazing upon your beautiful and awe-inspiring galleys and caravels! Council ministers have reported a boost in the cultrure rating of our sea-side cities, just for having seen these magnificent boats! We hope they are safe out there as they brave the ocean depths near our land. Please know that we will offer sanctuary to any of your brave sailors who do not survive the treacherous waters. But otherwise, we humbly request you stay outside of our cultural borders… we fear a revolt of the people if they get an even closer look!

Also, we wish to inquire as to the intentions of these sailors so far from home - our experiences have led us to some paranoia, as the last nation to sail near our waters landed armed forces on our homeland. We hope that your brave sailors are merely interested in exploring our watery world. Please let us know.

Finally, when you get the next save, you’ll notice we have put an offer of some of The Council’s world-famous luxuries on the negotiating table. Can we interest you in a trade to benefit both our peoples?
We’d like to get at least one luxury in return – but are prepared to accept 20gpt in lieu of a second luxury. Any interest?

All the Best,
Your Friends and cultural admirers,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts? Edits?

We’d like to get at least one luxury in return – but are prepared to accept 20gpt in lieu of a second luxury. Any interest?
This line confuses me - I suppose we want 2 luxes, or 1 lux + 20 gpt.

cultrure = culture.

Apart from that, letter looks very good to me, andit probably needs to be sent soon, before the save gets to GONG.

Good catches zyxy. That line can certainly be cleaned up.
Here’s version 1.2

Dear Cultured Ones of the Great Gong Show,

We’ve recently had the privilege of gazing upon your beautiful and awe-inspiring galleys and caravels! Council ministers have reported a boost in the culture rating of our sea-side cities, just for having seen these magnificent boats! We hope they are safe out there as they brave the ocean depths near our land. Please know that we will offer sanctuary to any of your brave sailors who do not survive the treacherous waters. But otherwise, we humbly request you stay outside of our cultural borders… we fear a revolt of the people if they get an even closer look!

Also, we wish to inquire as to the intentions of these sailors so far from home - our experiences have led us to some paranoia, as the last nation to sail near our waters landed armed forces on our homeland. We hope that your brave sailors are merely interested in exploring our watery world. Please let us know.

Finally, when you get the next save, you’ll notice we have put an offer of two of The Council’s world-famous luxuries on the negotiating table. Can we interest you in a trade to benefit both our peoples?
Of course, our preference would be to get two luxury items in return. However, we are prepared to also accept 1 luxury and 20gpt if that is more appealing to you.
Any interest?

All the Best,
Your Friends and cultural admirers,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


I agree we should send this out asap. Will send in the next 8 hours or so, depending on comments and how the save moves. :salute:

I think we should suggest a straight 2 lux for 2 lux deal. If they don't HAVE two luxes to trade us, then we can talk about gpt, but we should remember that luxes 3 and 4 give us 2 happy faces each in our cities with markets.

Frankly, I think they are getting the better deal out of it, as they have more citizens and, I assume, are still whipping so have more unhappiness to deal with.

I think we should suggest a straight 2 lux for 2 lux deal. If they don't HAVE two luxes to trade us, then we can talk about gpt, but we should remember that luxes 3 and 4 give us 2 happy faces each in our cities with markets.
That's why one is enough, we already got our third from FREE.
OTOH we'll get another one from SABER soon. :hmm:

That's why I'm open for both. I think 20gpt is quite a lot, I'd be surprised if they'd do that. And money is going to hurt them just the same. Upkeep is one of the toughest concerns in 100k.

I'd send it.

ahh.

Then I think we'll get 2 luxes back. Actually, I might be happier getting lots of luxes anyway - with caths and markets, we can do a lot of drafting if we want, or kick off WLKD.

I think we'd take 2 luxes or one lux and 20gpt -but not one lux for two. As long as that's clear to them let's send this.

Sounds & looks good - let's send it off!

Ok! Sending now to GONG gmail.
:salute:

We have a very rapid response back from GONG:

Dear Team Council,

You have nothing to fear from our boats which are just on a bit of a sightseeing cruise. We will respect your territorial waters and keep our party out to sea. We will accept your offer of luxury trade on the next turn.

Regards,
PrinceMyshkin


Not much detail there – but still, it’s certainly good news :thumbsup:

Good news indeed! Now the question is, what will they give in return?

Will be interesting to see what they offer. I hope we can still be trading luxes after we get hospitals built.

Proposed letter to GONG:


Dear wildmen of the GONGshow,

We noticed that you've lost a city to the Babes! :wow:
Would you like us to send in peacekeepers to help regain your lost territory? ;) ;)

On a more serious note – we've noticed that one of your boats has strayed into our waters. We'd respectfully request that you withdraw your sea vessel, and refrain from entering our territorial waters. We don't mean to be paranoid, but as you're aware we've "had a bad experience" with this in the past. :)

Thanks!
And congrats on the successful elevator. :hatsoff:

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

EDIT: SENT! To GONG gmail

Thoughts on that?
I think it's best to start with a friendly note – and if they don't respond, then we can get aggressive.

looks good.

Looks ok to me.

Looks good.

I wonder if we need to prepare for a sudden break of our luxury trades? :shifty:

It would be awful to see our whole empire riot after losing two luxuries by surprise...

Sending now...

Should we be talking to GONG about FREE as the biggest danger? I'm not sure how to approach that, but it might be wise. I'm not sure I want to sign peace with them, but I'd like to see a dogpile on someone who isn't us....

How about talking to GONG?
Ask for MilTrad or alike?

I'd like to open this channel again.
Not too much effort however, just see how they react.

We should ask what the price for Mil Trad is - we could offer navigation for it. We should do this quickly, though.

Navigation (just like Music) is only interesting if you build the wonder. They won't take it - or they already have it and build Magellan's. We need to offer something else but we could also ask.

I'm really surprised it's not built yet... :dubious:
Someone feels very save out there... ;)
When we research it, we should have our prebuild (in The Admirality) due the turn after... :old:

Should we pass on to GONG that there is a FREE invasion force near them?

I'm not sure we should - they'll find out soon enough, and I don't really want to upset a nation looking to attack someone before they've committed themselves ;)

Any way we can see if they have Marines?

Should we pass on to GONG that there is a FREE invasion force near them?
That won't help them much - FREE is playing before them... :p

I don't think we should tell GONG. Let's pretend we saw nothing.

I guess we don't have to tell GONG - FREE declared war !!!

We might ask the Gong'ers what we could do to best counter the aggression by FREE. Giving them flight might help.

Flight won't help them, they need land units. :old:
Can one draft in Feudalism? :dubious:

you can draft in anything, if you have nationalism. Should we offer that? They can poprush.

Letter in from GONG
Dear Team Council,

Congratulations on your recent Golden Age and entrance to the modern age. As you have noticed Team Free has attacked our nation due to a perceived threat of our strong culture. They have succeeded in removing one of their Causes of War as you should notice we are no longer a threat to achieve victory through cultural assimilation. They have only responded to our communications with silence in the past and have made quite clear that their true intention is world conquest. I'm pretty sure this would not be in the interests of the Council or any other team. Their attempt to roll over the Gong Show in a short number of turns appears to have failed, however, as you can see their gains were mostly short-lived. We have heard from the Babes that you have expressed interest in thwarting Free's plans as well and would like to hear your thoughts on this unfortunate war. We look forward to continued mutual beneficial trade and are open to any other offers of aid and increased communication in the future.

BestRegards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

So here's our perfect opening to offer some technology to them.

Who all has Nationalism as a tech?
As long as Saber or BABE has it, then we can safely give it to GONG.

Suggested response

Dear GONG,

We grieve with you over the reports of tremendous suffering at the hands of the FREE aggressors. You have the condolences of The Council, and our well-wishes in repelling these invaders.

As much as these events have stirred indignation in the hearts of our soldiers - we fear we have to keep them close to home for now, lest the same fate befall us.

However - we would like to aid you... would you find knowledge of [insert: Nationalism and/or Flight here] help you?
We've sent it along, with accept, with the next save.

If this will help -please just accept it as a token of goodwill from the people of The Council. If you win the war - perhaps at that time you would consider some kind of modest gold compensation... but no pressure - win the war first! :thumbsup:

All the best,
Your friends,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council


Thoughts?
(and remember, anything we give to GONG is very likely to end up in the hands of the BABEs... which is probably a good thing... as long as Saber is actually about to go to war)

Who all has Nationalism as a tech?
Nationalism is spread. They got it with The GLET at latest.
It's MotTrans they need... :hmm:

Well, it seems BABE has been doing the research and passing the techs onto GONG. Let's offer them their choice of motorized transport or flight. My guess is BABE is working on motorized transport and so they will take flight. (No pun intended.)

I'd change the paragraph about keeping our soldiers close to home. How about something along the lines of we are working to form a coalition against FREE?

I would still much rather stay neutral.

I can see this turn around on us and make us FREE and SABER's next (joint) target.

The big worry, in my head, would be what GONG does if FREE leaves and comes after us.

I think giving them either Motorized transport or Flight makes sense and I'm ok with that, but I'd like to tie it to them, somehow, coming to our aid if FREE attacks us, which would mean that if they made peace, they would make it with the agreement that such a peace would be considered null and void if war breaks out with between FREE and The Council, based on aggressiveness by FREE (where we would have to define aggressiveness - I think a stack of transports within landing range of Council lands is fine, myself)

If we DO become a joint target from FREE and SABER, then we gift GONG and BABE to modern times and see what happens. 3 on 2 would make it interesting.

btw - I think we should consider bombing FREE transports - and perhaps we should see if we can bring SABER in on the battle, too.

New letter from GONG...
Dear Team Council,

We understand it is difficult to hastily reply to diplomatic contact without discussion, but we still hope to hear from you and our door is always open. We have again prevented any breakout on our island by Team Free and they now have only one town on our shores as you will observe when you get the turn. We have inflicted more than 8-times the amount necessary to provide Team Free with maximum level-4 war-weariness and they will receive even more next turn. We are prepared to stay at war with them for as long as we survive. We also will continue to support beneficial mutual trade.

Team Gong is determined to not be an aggressor nation and our long lasting partnership with the Babes contains no military clause whatsoever. Team Gong's advice to the Babes long ago was to not waste time on a pointless early war with little to no chance of success, but our advice was not heeded. While this is unfortunate we do not control their destiny, but do believe their Team seeks a change of direction now.

We have sent an accepted MPP to you this turn, that should allow you to obtain war-happiness if Free attacks us next turn. We understand the difficulty and discussion required to take such a step, but do feel it would be in your Team's best interests. Team Free has payed a heavy price for failing to over-whelm Gong quickly and the time to stop them is now. If they are allowed to rebuild by destroying Gong, they will learn much from their mistakes and with superior production of veteran units be in position to win the game in our opinion. Their attack was most fierce, but our resistance even more determined. We are willing to provide even more details and discussion of this matter and hope to hear from the much esteemed Council soon.

Best Regards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

I found this letter just as I was heading off to bed, but I went ahead and shot back this quick note:
Hey PrinceMyshkin,

Just wanted to let you know that I got both of your letters, and have posted them for discussion.
We ARE talking about how we might be involved with this... but our team can be rather slow.
I just wanted to send you a quick note to let you know we're not ignoring you!

Great work on repelling the invaders! Here's one Councilor that's rooting for you :-)

Best,
General_W

So... an MPP with Gong? :wow:

What do we want to do with that?! Has GONG lost enough culture for us to feel safe signing something like that?

How does a MPP provide us with wh? :dunno:
IIRC if a MPP is applied we would dow FREE and not vice versa. :hmm:
In that case we'd provide some wh to FREE... :crazyeye:

And we don't need any wh as long as we don't lose at least 3 of our luxury deals. :smug:

GONG had lost at least their capital and about half of their culture buildings. Most of them would have got double culture (1000 years old) soon. They are definetely no threat in this game to win by culture. :nono:

FREE had achieved their (and our) aim but payed quite a price for it by getting ww :p. If they don't get reinforcements soon, they won't get any persistant gain. We should check their supply routes and consider to sink some ships if they should reinforce. Submarines would be great to avoid the escort. :sniper:

MPP?
Gut feeling says no.

Aid by tech, tied in with an alliance like AT says, sounds a better option.

Staying back might just paint us as sneaky, but then again, that is what we are, trying to fly under the radar.
I think we might see an attack on us within the next 8-10 turns if we start to meddle. Unfortunately there seems to be no way of aiding GONG with techs without getting called on it. Or could we offer cash to speed their research...sound a bit of a waste I know.

Unfortunately there seems to be no way of aiding GONG with techs without getting called on it. Or could we offer cash to speed their research...sound a bit of a waste I know.
Gifting money won't be detected so that sounds like an option to me. :hmm:
While they cannot use it to rush units (in Feudalism) maybe they could use some money to upgrade outdated units? warrior, MDI -> guerilla was something I had in mind when I saw one 1/4 MDI and a couple of warriors out there... :mischief:
At least they have Leo's - if it's not burned... :rolleyes:

On the other hand it's almost realistic that BABE might get MotTrans soon. :hmm:
Maybe it's not that obvious that they got it from us as long as we give it to BABE first :groucho:

On the other hand it's almost realistic that BABE might get MotTrans soon. :hmm:
Maybe it's not that obvious that they got it from us as long as we give it to BABE first :groucho:

:agree: But I also think we should send flight to FREE. Who is going to get upset if we do this? FREE? Aren't we considering attacking them anyway? We've been cruising along assuming we're still best buddies with SABER but we haven't had much discussion with them lately about anything. The best way to prevent a SABER/FREE alliance is to knock one of them down a peg or two. Even if we think FREE is not a threat to win we remve a major threat if we knock down their research capability. Getting flight to GONG allows them to continue to escalate FREE's war weariness. Let's send them flight and not even be sneaky about it. Picture a Roundtable headline about the GONG FREEdom fighters.

As for an MPP, I'd say no simply because I do not know how war weariness / war happiness works. Paul is right, we would declare war on FREE if we accepted that MPP. Perhaps we should send a note back to GONG saying we decline(d) the MPP because we think it would give us war weariness.

I'm against sending gold. We need the gold for our own research and as a war chest if we are attacked. We'll have computers next turn and may want to upgrade some infantry.

The trouble with giving flight to GONG (you don't nean FREE, right? :p ) is that they will inevitably give it to BABE and BABE might use it against SABER. That might annoy SABER which is not good... :shake:

Tanks imo are much more important for both of them so I'd rather settle for gifting MotTrans for the moment - if we find a consense to take part in the conflict.

Donsig: We are not ready to fight FREE are we?
When do we think we will be so?

And I would be careful to piss off SABER just yet, wait until they have boots on the ground with BABE and when we have more forces...but that is not possible as GONG need help now... :confused:

We are not ready to attack FREE on their homeland but we could hurt them on the seas without getting blown away immediately...
FREE won't be able to attack us (back) without getting a bloody nose either, especially if we started by sinking some loaded transports... :hammer:

But this would imply focussing on military thus delaying research. I'd rather keep the current balance for the rest of the game... ;)

But trading MotTrans (and only Mot Trans) to GONG via BABE does not sound too risky after I thought it over again... :groucho:
SABER won't be able to prove that we gave it to them although they might get the suspicion that we did... :rolleyes:

If SABER puts boots on BABE's ground there may not be time enough after that to help them. (Think of last game.)

Could we not gift flight to GONG with the stipulation that they not pass it on to BABE? Isn't it also in SABER's interest to have GONG continue to ratchet up FREE's war weariness? GONG needs bombers to do that well. Of course if SABER is planning to ally with FREE then they won't want us to give flight to GONG. :rolleyes:

If GONG gets flight and does not pass it to BABE, SABER and FREE will smell the rat even quicker... :rolleyes:

Don't you think that tanks are better than bombers in their situation? Once they cleared their continent, fighters and bombers might kill invasion forces on sea, but on land they are too vulnerable imo...

I'm kinda liking the idea of declining the MPP - even if they're right about the War Happiness - we'd really rather stay under the radar, unless someone is getting an overwhelming victory.

However - I DO like the idea of giving GONG flight (with a strict promise to NOT give it to BABE).
And then, give MotorTransport to BABE - perhaps in exchange for some kind of non-aggression (& Non-tourism ;) ) arrangement. [and if they give it to GONG... well, that's not our fault]

Saber won't be able to prove we gave MotorTransport to BABE... FREE could have easily and plausibly done that... and let's face it, we don't have an active treaty with them right now anyway, through no fault of ours.
It's also not provable that we were the ones who gave flight to GONG... but even if we did, so what? Only FREE would be upset by this, and they haven't had a treaty with us in a long time.

Maybe we can even get consensus on this approach? :thumbsup:

EDIT: @Paul - I don't think it's suspicious if GONG gets flight and doesn't trade it. Heck, if asked, we can even admit we made that trade! Only FREE would be upset... and hey - it's payback time for Hoover & ToE. :lol: It's possible Saber would even be grateful that we went out of our way to prevent Flight from falling into the hands of the BABEs.

I'm kinda liking the idea of declining the MPP - even if they're right about the War Happiness - we'd really rather stay under the radar, unless someone is getting an overwhelming victory.
I agree. Anybody in favor of taking the MPP? :dubious:
However - I DO like the idea of giving GONG flight (with a strict promise to NOT give it to BABE).
And then, give MotorTransport to BABE - perhaps in exchange for some kind of non-aggression (& Non-tourism ;) ) arrangement. [and if they give it to GONG... well, that's not our fault]
The letter I'd also favor and I think tanks are more important. Although sinking some ships with bombers has its merits, too... :evil:
Saber won't be able to prove we gave MotorTransport to BABE... FREE could have easily and plausibly done that...
:nono: FREE would not risk to let GONG get tanks. They could be sure that BABE would not hesitate to backstab them after their treacherous assault on their allies.
and let's face it, we don't have an active treaty with them right now anyway, through no fault of ours.
It's also not provable that we were the ones who gave flight to GONG... but even if we did, so what? Only FREE would be upset by this, and they haven't had a treaty with us in a long time.
I don't think it's just about treaties but also about who's good and who's bad. Right now SABER's next target would rather be FREE, either on their home or on GONG's continent if they should ever occupy it.
But if they feel threatened by us, this might turn faster against us than we'd like it to. :shifty:

But still, I'd like to give MotTrans to BABE, because the third possibility is that they researched it on their own. SABER cannot argue that.
Maybe we can even get consensus on this approach? :thumbsup:

EDIT: @Paul - I don't think it's suspicious if GONG gets flight and doesn't trade it. Heck, if asked, we can even admit we made that trade! Only FREE would be upset... and hey - it's payback time for Hoover & ToE. :lol: It's possible Saber would even be grateful that we went out of our way to prevent Flight from falling into the hands of the BABEs.

So here's a list of possible actions.
I think any demands like gold or non-agressive statements can be beglected because they need the gold and they will be gracious (and harmless) anyway... :D
Gentlemen, Please announce if you're pro or con (or ambivalent):

Gift MotTrans to BABE (Pro: General, Paul)
Gift Flight to GONG without restriction (Con: Paul)
Gift Flight to GONG with restriction not to pass it to BABE (pro: General. neutral: Paul)

I agree. Anybody in favor of taking the MPP? :dubious:

I am not in favor of the MPP.

Gentlemen, Please announce if you're pro or con (or ambivalent):

Gift MotTrans to BABE (Pro: General, Paul) I am pro.
Gift Flight to GONG without restriction (Con: Paul) I am ambivalent.
Gift Flight to GONG with restriction not to pass it to BABE (pro: General. neutral: Paul) I am pro.


EDIT: So, If we reach consensus on either of the first two, will we sent it with accept? If we have consensus on the last we don't have time to talk to GONG, so would we sent it without accept and then ask them about our restrictions?

No MPP.

1. Aye.
2. No idea.
3. No idea.

On techs:

I am in favor of gifting GONG and BABE with Motorized Transport and Flight, and I'm ok with doing that by giving them both to GONG, in the guise of defending them from FREE. Why? Because they are not real threats to win the game via space or culture and they are vulnerable to attack by FREE/SABER, who ARE threats to win the game by space. If either of those two get too strong, we are hosed.

Getting those two on our side would help us.

On MPP

I think we should consider this and not dismiss it out of hand. If we have an MPP with GONG, then if FREE stops their attack on GONG and attacks us, GONG re-attacks and FREE gets their war weariness back. Yes, we would be at war with FREE if they press, but I suspect that FREE may be done with their attack, anyway.

Basically, they did what we were planning to do at some point ;)

I think I'd like to either accept it or go back to GONG and say "we are debating the MPP"

I'd also like GONG to research advanced flight for us (radar towers) in exchange for getting gifted (we would have to send them AT and Electronics as well, of course)

I'm against the MPP. I'm also against gifting or selling anything to BABE, our relations with SABER are more important. I could see us gift or sell (with or without provisions) techs to GONG though.

Can we find out if FREE acted honorably in terms of any peace treaties they may have had with GONG?

That's a good point, AT. For that matter, we might ask all the teams about their past treaties :mischief:

I guess GONG would have pointed that out and asked for a UN resolution. :hmm:

Wait - UN is not built yet... :crazyeye:

If FREE had broken a treaty to attack GONG, I suspect we would have heard about it in the UN... like Paul said. :)

New letter from GONG:
Dear General_W,
Respected Ambassador of the Council,

We are glad to hear the Council is discussing matters. You've an interesting form of government. We're quite informal here and teammates give input and help often, but are satisfied with me doing the work.:) I'm trying to recruit ambassadors, but no takers so far.

We've also received a communication from Saber expressing desire to know if our luxury trades might be threatened. This is impossible over the next few turns, but if our trade does become threatened we will let you know. Otherwise, we will respond only when we hear from you and be happy to provide any answers to questions you may have. We'll continue to send the accepted MPP offer each turn while you discuss matters unless your team wishes that we do not. We've other proposals, but will to hear from you first.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Best Regards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

Please keep discussion on the letter to send GONG in response the "Diplomacy Central" thread for now.
Thanks.
:salute:

We sent this letter to GONG:
Dear PrinceMyshkin and all our Song & Dance friends,

As you'll see with the next save, The Council has voted against a Mutual Protection Pact at this time. This issue isn't totally dead over here – we just believe that any deal like that is a little premature.

However – we DO have some good news. :)
The Council has voted to send an emergency aid package to you, consisting of a few Council scientists, and all the drawings and technical schematics that you should need to make your very own Fighter Planes and Bombers.
We hope this is of great use to you in fighting the good fight against the invaders. :thumbsup:
Flight is yours, no strings attached. (except for our earnest hope for some good-will with your people).

We're also seriously considering gifting Motorized Transport to you (tanks)… but some Councilors believe that before we go this far, we need to structure the deal as a trade. What we'd like to propose is this – if you'll give us your word to research either Espionage or Advanced Flight before you tackle any techs in the Modern Age, and then gift it to us upon discovery… we'll give you Motorized Transport next turn.

You'll be free to trade MotorTransport around, if you wish.
If you choose Espionage, we just ask that you promise to NOT trade it to anyone else.

Interested?

Let us know!

All the best,
General_W, speaking with the voice of The Council

And I received this one back:

Dear General_W and the Most Learned and Esteemed Council,

I've just noticed and opened your private message. You most certainly have our permanent good will. You say I will notice in the save that you have not accepted our MPP, but I have already opened the save this morning and it came with an accepted and most unexpected gift of flight to us. According to my save you are now at war with Free. Your other offers are most interesting and I believe favorable, but we need to deal with this first, Was I intended to receive this message before I got the turn and decline the offer? What can we now do without me reopening the save?

You really shouldn't worry about being at war with Free unless you have other problems. We should soon eradicate them from our shores leaving no possible method of resupply to them and have already sunk one of their transports. They are throwing so much at us now that I cannot imagine they are also ready to make repeated attacks on your nation. My suggestion is to limit possible attacks on your nation so that war-weariness cannot disrupt your most splendid Golden Age but seek opportunities to sink Free's cruisers and transports, especially if possible to the west of the Gong Show and from their resource island to the north. Understand the offers and diplomacy Gong has been conducting with The Council and your warm friends at Saber have not been a plea to save Gong, but to save yourselves as well from a real danger to your plans by reducing Free's power now. If their blitzkrieg of us had succeed they would have advanced to the next civilization on their list, most likely!
the Babes and gained something approaching domination even now. This is not even their real goal. The third message we ever got from Team FREE was "There can only be one color in the world, and that color is TEAL. FREE declares war on Gong." Rest assured that Gong is resolved to stay at war until such time the Council wants peace and you will be favorably rewarded at the peace table should FREE be defeated and accept surrender.

I'll stop all actions on the turn now, to give you sufficient time to respond to this message. Gong does hope to hear from you soon via private message or googlemail

Best Regards and Wishes for the Council,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

----

Dear Council,

As addendum to the above message you must have accepted our pact last turn as you are already at war with Free and we also now have another Mutual Protection Pact and obtained flight. Saber and Free have already taken thier turns and responded to both the original Mutual Protection Pact Saber should have seen on its turn and Free to you declaration of war. They really do seek to destroy us first but we are almost of a certainty going to foil all their plans.

Regards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong



WAR?!?? :wow:
More in the Diplomacy Central Thread…

I sent this letter back:
PrinceMyshkin,

Thanks for the letters!
I must say - the news that we're at war with FREE is a bit of a shock... maybe our turnplayer messed up? :dunno: I'm posting this for the team to discuss.

Yes - our previous letter was supposed to arrive BEFORE you got the save... but we're very slow... what can I say? :blush:

We're glad to be of assistance with Flight, and I'm sure we'll make progress on the other issues.
We'll write more as soon as we get the confusion straightened out.

Best,
General_W

New letter from GONG:
Dear General_W and the Council,

Your help is most appreciated. I suppose your voting on the structured trade deal motors for espionage as we agreed to all your terms, but proposed a few more ideas you might want to work in.

As I said before, I wouldn't want a lot of war-weariness points to wrech your Golden Age, so I suggest limiting your losses and look for attacks of oppurtunity on Free shipping especially transports. We just killed 2 this turn and will kill another 1-2 soon. There is a Free Cruiser escorting a transport just south of your battleship on ouw NE (banana island). We've prevented their resupply for now but have been attempting to do this from the resource island to the north. Slow cautious encirclement should contain them in their territory and we may be able to coordinate seizure of their resource islands at a later date. Please let us know if you are ready for peace or ready to negotiate so we may do this together. If your superior navy and our growing one can contain them, they'll not be able to attack our homelands and we might then slowly approach theirs together if they are not willing for peace.

Warmest Thanks and Esteem,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

So - how do we feel about GONG's proposal for espionage? I think it sounds pretty good.
And do we want to pursue a deal for Advanced flight?

I've read their previous message several times now without understanding what their proposal really is. Could someone clarify? :blush:

From the other thread, this is what I think there proposal is:

"We would like to propose an addendum your team can put to vote, but we would accept original proposal anyway. Both Teams will agree to only use spies on teams that declare war on them. Essentially a war declaration triggered by MPP is the same to us as other teams have the ability to halt their aggression if they wish. Also the landing of an army on your territorial homelands designed to force declaration. Word this as you wish and we would most likely agree straightaway."

Essentially, in this case, we could only use spies on FREE, which rather reduces the use of espionage in any case.

I don't really understand why they want that - I'd be ok with something that says that neither side can use spies on the other, but if we have espionage, we will want to be able to use it on SABER, certainly, to monitor their SS.

Yes, odd that. :hmm:

Perhaps we should come back with a formal letter spelling out the Motorized Transport / Espionage trade. The wording of the spies could be incorporated, and maybe we write something simpler:
"Each team agrees to not use spies against the other"

Maybe that would slip past them? :dunno:

new letter from GONG:
Dear General_W, Ambassador for the Council,

We understand your wish to make this a defensive war as this is your right. We've noticed some very fine buildings known as the United Nations and the Seti Program may be making an appearance soon in our world. So far Team Gong has inflicted 674 war-weariness points on Team Free. We have destroyed 39 tanks, 8 marines, and 2 transports and for at least the moment Free holds no land on our shores. We can understand for political reasons you may have wished to hold back on the proposed trade or gift of motorized transportation.

You will probably notice we are in anarchy, but as a religious people we can expect to emerge as a Monarchy next turn ending the effects of war-weariness for our people. Our situation remains very dire, however. Perhaps you noticed the 2 unescorted Free transports just west of our coast near your naval group last turn. These have now unloaded 3 infantry, 7 tanks, a settler, and a worker on our western shore 3NW-3N of your cruiser, Ulsan, and aircraft carrier. This is not enough to overwhelm our defenses this turn, unless they are also able to resupply a large force from 2 more transports out to sea. Our destroyers have damaged 2 cruisers leaving them with 2hp's each escorting 2 transports 4W of the Ulsan and your carrier. We can only trust the Council to do the right thing, but if a way to defeat these ships can be found to fit in with your policies we should be able to hold out against Free many turns with good chances to throw them from our shores. We must expect the worst, however, should you not find it acceptable to your policies to kill these ships and it is conceivable our defenses could fail and we will be overwhelmed quickly. We will take steps to remain alive via settler escape for as long as possible to keep Free pinned down should this happen.

Please contact us as soon as possible to let us know your plans. We are prepared to also share concrete information with Team Saber as we know you have warm relations with them, but prefer they contact us for this. We remain faithful, grateful, and warm to the Esteemed and Learned Council and await any word you may send us

Best Wishes and Regards,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

We should really send MotorTansport next turn.

And I'll take a swing and drafting some kind of proposal for GONG tomorrow. Too tired now, sorry.

If they are in Monarchy, they can cash rush. :D

If we don't decide to attack FREE actively, I'd suggest to send 1,000g along with MotTrans to offer them a strong indirect support.

I think those 1,000g are a good investment, it won't hinder us to get The Internet at full speed and will keep FREE busy without open hostility.

If SABER also spent some money, GONG could do some nice damage to FREE. :hammer:

I'd still hesitate to openly attack FREE.
At the minimum we should talk to SABER about it - although both FREE and SABER made some warfare without consulting us but that were different cases...

Since there seems to be some interest in sending GONG a pile of gold we should write and ask them if a gift of gold would help. Here's a draft:

Dear GONG,

We are reluctant to openly attack FREE since we do have an outstanding peace treaty with them despite our erroneous declaration of war. We do want to help you as much as we can within the confines of our treaty. We are considering sending motorized transportation next turn. We would also like to know if a loan of gold would help you drive FREE from your shores. If gold will help you defeat FREE how much would you need?

Do you have any screen shots of the FREE transports heading your way? Is stopping these transports your only hope?

The Council

Please comment, edit, revise, vote it down, etc.

Good one. :thumbsup:

I'd still say gift instead of loan but in thier situation it's pretty much the same...

should you not find it acceptable to your policies to kill these ships and it is conceivable our defenses could fail and we will be overwhelmed quickly

In light of this statement and the Council's opposition to striking the transports in question, I think it is a waste of resources to send gold to GONG. Before we play our current turn we should have a dialogue with GONG about this. I suggest we ask for an extension and send this letter to GONG:

Dear GONG,

We are reluctant to openly attack FREE since we do have an outstanding peace treaty with them despite our erroneous declaration of war. We do want to help you as much as we can within the confines of our treaty. We are sending motorized transportation this turn. We would also like to know if a loan/gift of gold would help you drive FREE from your shores. If gold will help you defeat FREE how much would you need? We just want to be sure the gold will be useful before sending it - we also don't want it to fall into the FREE treasury box.

Do you have any screen shots of the FREE transports heading your way? Is stopping these transports your only hope?

The Council

I am prepared to send the note off by noon (eastern US time) unless there is strong objection from the Council.

I'm fine with sending the letter, tho' I might add a line that says "We won't play the save until we hear back from you", or something along those lines :)

Yes, please send it.
I'll check our mailbox in the evening (6 hours from now) and request an extension if we got no response.

If we got response, please post it here and post your decision in the Diplomacy Center.

Sent to GONG gmail and PrinceMyshin's pm:

Dear GONG,

We are reluctant to openly attack FREE since we do have an outstanding peace treaty with them despite our erroneous declaration of war. We do want to help you as much as we can within the confines of our treaty. We are sending motorized transportation this turn. We would also like to know if a loan/gift of gold would help you drive FREE from your shores. If gold will help you defeat FREE how much would you need? We just want to be sure the gold will be useful before sending it - we also don't want it to fall into the FREE treasury box.

Do you have any screen shots of the FREE transports heading your way? Is stopping these transports your only hope?

We are holding our turn till we hear back from you.

The Council

Sent to PrinceMyshkin's pm and GONG gmail

sorry I've been so AWOL around here :blush: today is another busy day... hopefully I can participate more soon.

New letter from GONG:
Dear Team Council,

As always your help is appreciated and, indeed, the erroneous declaration of war has complicated things needlessly for all teams involved. A hearty kudos is in order for General_W's wonderfully produced RoundTable reports and I'll be making a subscription post there soon as I've been stealing editions of his fine paper long enough. You have succeeded in giving Free the "Fear" to attack, but it also appears they now have no fear of attack themselves.

I have attached two tactical screen shots from CivAssist showing the numbers and positions of Free's ships to the west of the Gong Show as you requested. The turn before our destroyer had successfully killed one of their unescorted transports, but this turn they covered their resupply with cruisers. We attacked these cruisers and almost succeeded in destroying one, but they both remain at 2/5 hp's and 2/4 hp's after our attack. The second map shows how they will be able to resupply next turn via 2 transports escorted by a healthy cruiser. Just to the NE you can see the stack of units consisting of 3 infantry, 1 settler, 1 worker, and 7 fresh tanks they landed on our shores this turn.

The units they have on our shores now and the ability to resupply by air is of certainly grave concern to us, but our defenses are virtually 100% certain to hold next turn if that were all they have to attack with. By careful abandonment of some of towns and wise builds we could be expected to hold out a good number of turns and ensure your supply of our luxuries. The chance to overthrow this new position from our island would not be impossible, but is made difficult by the fact they have the ability to steal our oil with their new settlement on the next turn. If you had sent motors to us on the last turn we would have been able to set production to tanks and been able to rush some tanks on the first turn of anarchy. We still hope to receive motors from you this turn and none of our agreements have changed. Your gift of flight has helped and the first bomber we produced has already succeeded in destroying another tank. We successfully destroyed 10 tanks this turn.

Unfortunately, it is our opinion now that stopping Free's transports is our only hope of holding out yet more turns. If they somehow, and I don't doubt they do, have the ability to resupply the new town they should build next turn with 12 fresh tanks our defenses will likely fail and we could lose a number of towns and be easily overrun the next turn. Possibly also lose the chance to provide some assisstance via escape by settler.

Gold could possibly help us repel Free from our shores, but if these ships aren't destroyed it is likely much of the gold would just fall in Free's hands. If they were to be destroyed, we would be sure no gold could fall into Free's hands over the next few turns. With the remaining bombers we can rush, our stock of artillery and some more infantry units we could possibly repel them from their new position by 2-3 turns but would need to rely on cavalry to do the job. My best advisor says this could require as much as 4000 gold, but my own opinion is it would take much less than that.

We have succeeded at reducing Free's power by the same relative margin our own power has been reduced, but it may be that despite our best efforts our downfall will come eventually if Free is not to be attacked by any other team soon. I hope I have answered all your questions in this long reply, but if you have others ask them soon and I will answer more succintly and directly to any questions asked.

Best Regards and Thanks,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong

I remain hesitant about sinking transports... but I think I'd certainly vote to send gold to GONG. We don't want them to be wiped out!

Well, tho' I've been a strong advocate for not sinking Free's navy, this letter is really eating away at me.

Of course, we don't really know if the situation is quite as bad as he claim. We still don't know everyone's military strengths relative to eachother. :hmm:

Too bad we didn't do the MT trade last turn, but I don't recall any pressing language in his letter. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Is there any way our fighters on the carrier can help to keep Oil flowing for Gong? :dunno:

We happen to have an extra oil we could send GONG if their supply is cut. :cowboy:

I'd like to sink those transports - but I don't know that we have enough in the area to do that. Three fighters on the carrier and two cruisers, is all I see there. :(

I am in favor of sending motorized transportation. Still not sure about sending gold. Doesn't FREE play before GONG? If so, and if they take GONG cities they will get a portion of the gold we send. And without oil they could not even rush tanks or planes. Shouldn't we wait a turn before sending gold? :dunno:

We should send oil next turn if they need it.

Doesn't FREE play before GONG? If so, and if they take GONG cities they will get a portion of the gold we sendI'm not positive, but I don't think this is correct.

Even if we send the gold with accept, the trade doesn't happen until Gong also accepts the trade, so when Free takes a town, none of our gold is yet in Gong's treasury. Therefore, even if Free takes a town, or takes out the Oil, as long as we send Gold and Oil with accept, then Gong should see the benefits of the trade as soon as they open the save.

Unless I've got it wrong :dunno:

For the record, I'm in favor of sending Gold, Oil, and Motorized Transport with accept. :)

I'm with Peter in this. They cannot lose our gold without accepting the deal. :nono:

But we also cannot send oil before they lose their current source :sad:

So that means that they'll have to request oil from us, with accept. I think we can promise them that we'll supply them with oil if they lose it, right?

We can also send it with accept for their instant benefit - whenever they got no active source themselves.

No need that they start the trade.

Ahh, yes, that makes sense about the gold. So it is better that FREE goes first. Ok, I with draw my reservations about the gold. They will still be without oil for a turn but we can't do anything about that. We can send oil with accept as Paul says.

a new letter, with some good news (!) from Gong...
Dear Team Council,

Your gift of motors and 500 gold is most appreciated. We have a bit of good news this turn as our inland defense held. Either Free didn't have enough ships to transport 12 more tanks or chose to hold back a bit after losing 5 tanks, redlining others and only managing to kill 2 infantry and a regular cavalry. They have not gotten a single gold piece or permanently captured a town of ours so far in this war and now we are assured they will not and we should hold out many turns as it takes them 2 turns to attack any of our towns now. They have brought even a bit more infantry to our shores and resupplied another stack of tanks on their new airfield. Their new town has as much as a 5.7% flip chance to us and requires more units than they can spare to ensure it won't.

We have been forced to abandon our small island with rubber, but should be able to get another supply from the Babes next turn who finally lost a little ground to Saber this turn. We are all puzzled here why two powerful modern age teams find it necessary to kill such backwards teams so quickly, but think this can only be a good thing for the Council. We are glad you didn't have to break your policy by attacking Free now and also glad we were lucky enough to hold this critical turn. Your luxury supply from us should be safe for at least the next two turns and hopefully longer.

We did lose our oil supply, but happily noticed that the Council is blessed with two sources of this. We are now a monarchy, but spared our cash not rushing units this turn and are hoping you can send us your extra supply next turn and as much gold as you can spare so we can rush as many tanks as possible. In two turns we might be able to hit them with as many as 18 tanks and in three turns have a good chance of driving them from our shores. There is some evidence they are slowing down as they have been lowered in the power graph as much as we and also have a small, but noticeable drop in culture indicating they are selling cultural buildings to have cash to keep producing tanks at a fast rate. We have now inflicted 692 war-weariness points on them and destroyed 44 of their tanks.

Also, congratulations on your new Seti Program and for being the first team in long while not in awe of, but merely admirers of our culture. We are doing minimal research on espionage, but won't be able to spend much on this in the next few turns. Hope to hear from you soon.

Best Regards and Thanks,
Your Grateful Friends,
PrinceMyshkin
Team Gong
This is really great news - FREE is having a rough go of it! :thumbsup:

I propose we send oil and 500 more gold to GONG next turn.

From the letter, it sounds like Saber is wiping BABE out?
Perhaps we need to suggest that they send MotorTransport to BABE... or ask for screenshost/details? Shouldn't we be able to see on our maps if BABE was losing cities?

Yep, that sounds good. :thumbsup:

Our navy can have a look at BABE's coast. BABE however should be even more capable to defend their territory. I'm sure, GONG sent MotTrans to them as we did not apply any no-trade clause (or did we?).

I'm really surprised that FREE does not make more progress. :p

So I'll send oil and 500g this turn unless the council wants to send even more gold... :groucho:

But it looks like we could still send more the turn after if we feel like doing so... :smug:

By all means drop a subtle hint that BABE should somehow get tanks. :mischief:

Send oil and gold. 500g for now.

:agree: Oil, 500 gold, and a hint of tanks to BABE. :yup: