Any info on which Civs you will be representing in this Mod. That is something I am really looking forward to seeing. I have been keeping an Eye on this Mod since you first announced it and have been imatiently awaiting it's completing. Civ info has been one of the things I have really been waiting to find out.

Also will you have different Civs based on Eras or just the core groups?

Copied from chamber of record, initial post by Elda King
Here are the planned civs of this mod. Feel free to discuss it.

HUMANS
We should have three divisions of humanity: the Edain, the Middle Men (peoples related to the Edain, but that haven't gone to Beleriand), and the Dark Men (the peoples that have served Morgoth or Sauron).
EDAIN
The Edain should be divided in the House of Hador - lead by Húrin (Aggressive, Organised) , Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical) - the House of Beör - lead by Hyarmendacil (protective, Seafaring), Beren (Wise, Creative) or Elros (Industrious, Expansive)- and the House of Haleth - lead by Haleth (Protective, Creative), Ar-Pharazôn (Agressive, Seafaring), and Castamir (Expansive, Seafaring).
MIDDLE MEN
The Middle Men should be dividedin the Éothéod - lead by Eorl (Aggressive, Industrious), Helm (Protective, Expansive) or Éomer (Aggressive, Wise) - and the Men of Rhovanion - lead by Bard (Financial, Creative) and Vidugavia (Agressive, Protective).
DARK MEN
The Dark Men shoul be the Haradrim - lead by Herumor (Aggressive, Financial), the Easterlings - lead by Ulfang (Aggressive, Creative), and the Dunlendings - lead by Freca (Expansive, Financial).

ELVES
The elves should be much more powerful than the Humans, but decay quickly with the past of the Ages. This could be done increasing the cost of their units in the later ages (so a elven unit in the first age might have the same cost of a human's one, but in the fourth age a elven unit should be much more expensive). We should divide them in the Sindar, the Avari and the Noldor:
NOLDOR
The Noldor should be divided in houses: the House of Fëanor - lead by Maedhros (Wise, Industrious), Caranthir (Aggressive, Expansive) or Celebrimbor (Industrious, Creative) - the House of Fingolfin - lead by Fingon (Organised, Wise), Turgon (Industrious, Protective) or Gil-Galad (Seafaring, Organised)- and the House of Finarfin -lead by Finrod (Protective, Wise), Orodreth (Expansive, Creative) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).
SINDAR
The Sindar should be divided in: Nandor -lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) - Falathrin -lead by CÃ*rdan (Seafaring, Financial) and Doriath - lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Dior (Expansive, Organised).
AVARI
The Avari should be lead by Thranduil (Protective, Financial).

DWARVES
The dwarves should also decay, but much slower than the elves. We should divide the dwarves in the Longbeard Clan - Lead by Durin (Industrious, Philosophical) or Dáin (Industrious, Organised) - and the Firebeard and Broadbeam Clans - lead by Azaghâl (Industrious, Financial).

THE SHADOW
The Shadow rpresents the Enemy, the forces of Morgoth (Destructive, Aggressive) and Sauron (Destructive, Protective). They should be very different from all others: a unstoppable horde, completely focused on destroying all the enemies, and uncapable of winning the game in any other way.

About Isengard and the Hobbits (that you didn't notice), I think they should not be included. By The Shadow, I have wanted to mean all the evil; Saruman and the orcs of the mountains weren't under direct control of Morgoth/Sauron, but they were all consequences of Morgoth lies and corruption, and they helped Sauron during the War of the Ring. The Dark Men aren't evil by they alone (they were Sons of Ilúvatar), they only were corrupted by the Shadow, but in the end of the Third Age some made peace with the United Kingdom.
About the Hobbits, I don't think they are important enougth, and I'm thinking about making them units of the Humans.

About the Traits: I distributed them trying to don't repeat any pair of traits, so each leader is unique. The new traits are:
Destructive-> Combat II for all Melee and Archery units
Seafaring-> Navigation I for all sea units
Wise-> +50% Great People born rate and Wonder Production

the opne change i can remember from that is that Saruman has been added as a Dunlending leader

Lots of good ideas there. Thanks.

Just started, Replaced America with Dunlendings, and crashed the game :p i'll try to figure out what i did wrong...

(Elda King's special characters mess up horribly in my browser...)

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Vanyar civ? They may have historically stayed with the Valar, but they wouldn't have to on a random map.

(Elda King's special characters mess up horribly in my browser...)

Wouldn't it be cool to have a Vanyar civ? They may have historically stayed with the Valar, but they wouldn't have to on a random map.

The characters were made on another forum, so they mess up because of different system, even in my own PC...

And the mod has a "historical" scope, and it's the ages of the sun. There were no Vanyar involved in the happenings of the world, as there were no Valar, and there is no reason for putting them (except perhaps in a special scenario, with different ages and context).

I guess that's true (except the Valar did get involved at the end of the First Age).

List of diplomacy music ideas:

EDAIN - Minas Tirith theme (perfect bit in mind)
MIDDLE MEN - Rohan theme
DARK MEN - I'll see if the ROTK soundtrack has any Harad bits, or maybe the Isengard theme
NOLDOR - the Lórien theme (the bit at the very beginning of the Lothórien bit)
SINDAR - no idea
AVARI - no idea
DWARVES - I'll see what I can pull out of the Moria bit
THE SHADOW - the Minas Morgul theme, or something else if it happens to be more suited.

I've also got the perfect small bit for the 'at war' music - you know, how when you contact someone you're at war with or zoom into one of their cities (or if you zoom into one of your unhappy cities), it plays a warlike music?

List of diplomacy music ideas:

EDAIN - Minas Tirith theme (perfect bit in mind)
there's three houses to the edain.
MIDDLE MEN - Rohan theme
there's more than one group of middle men, the Rohirim, and the men of Dale. anything for Dale?
DARK MEN - I'll see if the ROTK soundtrack has any Harad bits, or maybe the Isengard theme
For Dunland, we can use isengard, and for Harad, see if you can find anything
NOLDOR - the Lórien theme (the bit at the very beginning of the Lothórien bit)
There's more than one Civ here
SINDAR - no idea
AVARI - no idea
me either:p
DWARVES - I'll see what I can pull out of the Moria bit
there's two groups of dwarves. for one of them i had the bit when they walk into the great hall of moria in mind
THE SHADOW - the Minas Morgul theme, or something else if it happens to be more suited.

good:goodjob:

I can't find a copy of the old mod. (the buggy one) maybe Elda king can upload it?

there's three houses to the edain.
I figured we'd use the same for all of them, but I can try to get Aragorn's thing for him.

there's more than one group of middle men, the Rohirim, and the men of Dale. anything for Dale?
Nope!:p

For Dunland, we can use isengard, and for Harad, see if you can find anything
If there's not, we may have to settle for something else.

There's more than one Civ here
Since LOTR doesn't revolve around Noldor like Quenta Silmarillion does, I picked the theme for the one Noldo in LOTR.

there's two groups of dwarves. for one of them i had the bit when they walk into the great hall of moria in mind
Then for the other one, we can have the bit where they're just in the plain caverns right after they get in. The bit where Gandalf goes, 'Let us hope that our presence may go unnoticed.'

good:goodjob:
Thanks!

I may have to email you the music, CivFanatics doesn't allow mp3 uploads. (dang)

good, thanks.

SINDAR - no idea

:ack:

Go me, I totally forgot about Rivendell. I'll use something from there.

EDIT: May use that for the Avari - I have an awesome 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' poem/song from the Extended I would love to use.

I've got more music than places to put it! :p

Edit again: Using the poem-song for Galadriel, the Lórien bit for someone else.
I can also use Nazgûl bits for Númenóreans, specially Ar-Pharazôn.

And if we do hobbits, I've got the perfect bit as well.

What about religon themes?

Do we even know what the religions are for sure?

Ideas for religions are posted elsewhere, Wonders pg. 3 I believe.

Right then.

Ilúvatar Worship - maybe something from the poem-song I have for Galadriel's diplo
Melkor Worship - Nazgûl bits: the singing in Adûnaic (maybe nothing more than 'Bârî n’kathârâd')
Dwarvishness -something from the early Moria bit I picked - it even says something about Durin the Deathless.
(any other religions, tell me)

Also, an idea for Beren's diplo: the extended soundtrack has a bit with Aragorn singing part of the Lay of Leithian (which in the movie he calls the lay of Lúthien - stupid movie makers :mad:) - maybe we could use that.

Maybe we should have a mod split this off into a Music thread.

EDAIN
The Edain should be divided in the House of Hador - lead by Húrin (Aggressive, Organised) , Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical) - the House of Beor - lead by Hyarmendacil (protective, Seafaring), Beren (Wise, Creative) or Elros (Industrious, Expansive)- and the House of Haleth - lead by Haleth (Protective, Creative), Ar-Pharazôn (Agressive, Seafaring), and Castamir (Expansive, Seafaring).

Calling civilizations "House of Beor," "House of Hador" etc. seems a bit cumbersome, especially when talking about their empires or adjectives. Those houses were only the starting points for long histories, after all. And linking Castamir (a rebel leader in 3rd Age Gondor) to the 1st Age wood-folk of Haleth is a tenuous connection at best.

I would suggest an alternative division:
*Numenorean Empire: lead by Tar-Aldarion (Seafaring, Imperialistic), Tar-Ancalime (Financial, Creative), or Ar-Pharazon (Aggressive, Seafaring).
*Arnor Empire: lead by Elendil (Wise, Seafaring) or Aragorn Elessar (Expansive, Philosophical).
*Gondor Empire: lead by Isildur (Aggressive, Imperialistic), Hyarmedacil (Protective, Seafaring) or Eldacar (Protective, Industrious).
*Maybe also Edain Empire (representing 1st Age Men): lead by Beor (Wise, Creative), Hador (Aggressive, Organised), or Haleth (Protective, Philiosphical).

Men like Hurin, Turin, Beren etc. were more Great Generals then leaders.

MIDDLE MEN
The Middle Men should be dividedin the Éothéod - lead by Eorl (Aggressive, Industrious), Helm (Protective, Expansive) or Éomer (Aggressive, Wise) - and the Men of Rhovanion - lead by Bard (Financial, Creative) and Vidugavia (Agressive, Protective).

DARK MEN
The Dark Men shoul be the Haradrim - lead by Herumor (Aggressive, Financial), the Easterlings - lead by Ulfang (Aggressive, Creative), and the Dunlendings - lead by Freca (Expansive, Financial).

These sound good, though I'm not sure about Dunlendings; how about adding
*Druedain or Pukel Men Empire: lead by Ghan-buri-Ghan (Protective, Organised).
*Variag Empire: lead by Sangahyando (Aggressive, Industrious).

ELVES

NOLDOR
The Noldor should be divided in houses: the House of Fëanor - lead by Maedhros (Wise, Industrious), Caranthir (Aggressive, Expansive) or Celebrimbor (Industrious, Creative) - the House of Fingolfin - lead by Fingon (Organised, Wise), Turgon (Industrious, Protective) or Gil-Galad (Seafaring, Organised)- and the House of Finarfin -lead by Finrod (Protective, Wise), Orodreth (Expansive, Creative) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).

Again, the names sound awkward - and it breaks things up a bit too much. The different civs would quickly run out of city names.
*A single Noldor Empire would be enough: lead by Feanor (Creative, Aggressive), Fingolfin (Protective, Imperialistic) or Galadriel (Philosophical, Wise).
The various other Noldorin princes would help make up the numbers of Great People.

SINDAR
The Sindar should be divided in: Nandor -lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) - Falathrin -lead by CÃ*rdan (Seafaring, Financial) and Doriath - lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Dior (Expansive, Organised).

These were actually splinter groups from the TELERI. "Sindar" was only one of them. How about the following:
*Teleri Empire: lead by Olwe (Seafaring, Creative).
*Sindar Empire: lead by Thingol (Protective, Philosophical) or Melian (Creative, Protective).
*Nandor Empire: lead by Denethor (Creative, Organised) and
*Falas Empire: lead by Cirdan (Seafaring, Financial), just as you suggested.

I'd agree with T_F that the Vanyar should be included: they were important culturally, and did take part in the defeat of Morgoth. Saying that they don't count is like excluding the Khmer or Koreans from BTS, just because they never extended their influence as much as the Chinese or Japanese.

*Vanyar Empire: lead by Ingwe (Creative, Wise) or Indis (Industrious, Financial).

One shouldn't exclude the Hobbits, either. They were at least as significant as Dunlendings - in fact, I'd exlude the latter tribe if it's a question of sticking to a set number of civs. Most importantly, Hobbits feature so prominently in Tolkien's books that they undeniably vital to the overall flavour of Arda as a world.

*Hobbit Empire: lead by Gerontious Took (Philosphical, Industrious) or Bilbo Baggins (Protective, Financial).

I hope these ideas are of some use. :king:

we'll let elda king decide on most of those...

however, we'er using Saruman and freca as dunlending leaders, so the Earlier units will be the Dunlending men, and later the Uruk-Hai.

Hobbits will be used as spies...

I could provide city lists for each of the civs, if Elda King hasn't done so already.

Taking Pariah's for music:

*Númenórean Empire - Nazgûl stuff
*Arnor Empire - maybe some Aragorn-related music
*Gondor Empire - Gondor theme - know the perfect bit (as I said)
*?Edain Empire - no idea, maybe more Aragorn-stuff

*Druedain or Púkel Men Empire - no idea
*Variag Empire - no idea

*Noldor Empire - probably some bits from Lothlórien

*Teleri Empire - no idea
*Sindar Empire - The poem-song I mentioned earlier
*Nandor Empire - no idea
*Falas Empire - no idea

*Vanyar Empire - no idea
^Probably for all of those I'll just take some random Elvish music

*Hobbit Empire - Flaming Red Hair [the party song]



Should we divide Sauron/Morgoth into two civs? Morgoth got to use a lot more than Sauron, as Sauron never had access to Belryg or Dragons.

Also i think that Samwise Gamgi shall be a leader in a possible hobbit empire. Instead of bilbo who never got to be a leader...

Didn't Pippin become Thain?

He spent the most of his days in Arnor i think.

Hm, I'll have to look at the Appendices then. I think Sam works, he got to be Mayor for something like four times in a row.

A good mayor... Bilbo got to be nothing...

i would put the old Took as hobbit leader, if anyone.

i would put the old Took as hobbit leader, if anyone.

Old Took - alias Gerontius. ;)

I think he fits best of all.

yeseliyesyes so screw bilbo, he could be a great spy...

We already discussed putting the hobbits on the old Arda Mod thread, and we came to the conclusion (not very "strong", truly) that they were too peaceful and simple to be a civ. They took part of almost no important event apart from the War of the Ring and reconquest of Erebor, and only 5 hobbits had any importance after all. We would rather have the Shire wonder, and Hobbit units available as spies or stealth warriors.
About the edainic civs, I don't think having the three peoples of the Edain in one civ would be good. I tried to make the peoples of the mod in their origins, even the Dunlendings (they were some of the Easterlings that invaded Beleriand, even thought I didn't put any Leaders from this age) and such. I tried to avoid civs that only appeared on later ages, like Gondor and Arnor, because a civ can develop into another realm (like the House of Hador, that formed most of the people of Númenor - and, in this way, of Gondor and Arnor) but we can't make one civ appear from nothing in a current game (ok, Rhyes and Fall of Civ does so, but it's a completely different and very complex scenario). As the people of Númenor was a "mix" of all the edain, the later civs could have their leaders sorted between any of the three houses. I put one leader of each age into each of these civs (it's really weird to have Haleth, Castamir and Ar-Pharazôn as leaders of a same civ, but I randomly determined that the "evil númenor" was going to be represented by the House of Haleth, as we needed a civ to perform this role; it's the same as having Mao Tse and Qin Shi Huang as leaders of a same civ, their people was the same, thought they lived in completely different times and circunstances. Also, having the Greek ruled by Alexander, a leader of a different people, while the greeks were actually a miriad of independent cities that fought between themselfes, is another example). Truly, if we could change the name of the civs as it passes the ages, we could rename them to represent the different kingdoms, but as we can't it makes no difference if we call them by 1st Age or Third Age names, and I myself prefer the first.
About the elves, there are 2 points: I decided to have nothing from Aman in the game. Nothing. No Valar, no Vanyar, no Trees, no techs from this time. The time scope for this mod is the arriving of the Noldor in ME, and the boundaries are the ME and Númenor. If we did any different, the men would have to start the game later, we would have too powerful civs, and most times Aman didn't do anything interesting. The other point is: the Noldor were as separated between themselves as Gondor and Arnor, truly more. They made war amongst themselves, they thought in different ways, they allied with different peoples. In the 3rd age perhaps they were so few that they would have to unite to populate a city, but earlier, we had different civs for them.
As you may have noticed, I myself like the First Age much more than the others, but also, it's the best descripted age... But a Shire civ could be added, if you have any ideas of how to make it accurate and still "playable".

Thanks the update. A lot of good reasoning there. Keep up the great work.

On the point of no Aman stuff. I completely understand why you do not want that in the game. What about that as a separate scenario separate from the rest of the game? Just a thought. If not, than that is of course fine. Thanks again.

Well, I didn't want to go too much about the scenarios (we still have to finish the mod, to only them work on them), but by the war I thought of scenarios as early as the shaping of the world and the Maiar and Valar dueling against Melkor... But I don't know if we'll really do this scenario (I bet no), or wich ones we'll actually do. Probably a War of The Gems scenario, as it's the age I like the most, probably a War of the Ring, perhaps some more.

About nothing from Aman - it is an Arda mod, and I always considered Aman as part of Arda, as little part as it may have taken in the Ages of the Sun. Besides, if we are going to have a random map aspect, having the Vanyar not go to wherever Aman might be would be interesting at the least.
Though I can understand why setting boundaries like that would be a good idea - the Valar would be immensely difficult to pull off.

I decided to have nothing from Aman in the game. Nothing. No Valar, no Vanyar, no Trees, no techs from this time.

I see what you mean about the Valar: too powerful, too aloof, difficult to depict and still balance the game etc. But the Trees would surely make a good Wonder if nothing else. And the Vanyar are basically just elves - it could (in theory) have been them that returned to Middle Earth instead of the Noldor. I don't see a problem with using them.

Balrogs and Wizards were originally Maiar, of course - no doubt the modpack will feature those.

I tried to avoid civs that only appeared on later ages, like Gondor and Arnor, because a civ can develop into another realm...

Hate to be pedantic: but if Sid Meier and his associates had reasoned this way, we would have no English, French, German, Spanish, Russian or American civs available to play...

Truly, we have Germans, thought the Germany was only united in the XIX Century. Before that, we had only Prussia, Austria, and many kingdoms. Also, we have China, but China is another kingdom that was only united in a single country after a long time. We have the Romans, not the Italians, because they are the same people, even in a complete and different kingdom. In the same way, we have Persia, not Iran. I didn't put only one Quendi civ because the Elves were one same people...
For the Vanyar, really there's no real reason for putting them away, seeing by this point of view... As we play in a random map, some civs are really left out of the game, and the Vanyar could return to ME as well. But the game chronology should stay the same, so no Trees (only the White Tree... probably a National Wonder), and no Valar, and no problems with men or dwarves.
One more doubt: should we include the other 4 houses of Dwarves (we have the Longbeards, the Firebeards, and the Broadbeams)? They didn't play a major role on the world, and we have really little info about them (their names are mentioned in a single text, and it also says they lived in pairs - so just 2 more civs). But they could be included, with some "creative help" - inventing leaders, and city names.

i want at least two disticnt dwarven civs... though if we can't make them distinct, we could go down to two.

From what I seen, we could prolly add more civs. How many does BtS features? 16? 20? I can't even remember the number for vanilla.

But anyway, we could add some well-know civ such as Gondor and make them have their unique unit and unique building in the later age. We really (well, probably me excluded because i'm light-year away from you about Arda) should seperate the civ by the way they think or act, how much of a power they are, etc. Because, after all, Canada, America, Mexico, Brasil, all of America, are just a bunch of civ that seperated from their homeland. However only America is playable because they had a huge impact on the world. The Aztec, Inca, Maya have all disapeared for a long time, but they are still a playable civ. You should not exclude a civ just because it has some affiliation with an already existing civ or has disapeared. As i said, you have the take the most important one. Playing in the third age without any third age civ would be catastrophic.

One more doubt: should we include the other 4 houses of Dwarves (we have the Longbeards, the Firebeards, and the Broadbeams)? They didn't play a major role on the world, and we have really little info about them (their names are mentioned in a single text, and it also says they lived in pairs - so just 2 more civs). But they could be included, with some "creative help" - inventing leaders, and city names.

There are plenty of place names available in the role-playing Middle-Earth maps, which include the east & south of the continent. And dwarfish-sounding personal names are easy enough to devise... :) We will also need a lot of new city names for your proposed Dunlending civ, not to mention the Haradrim.

From what I seen, we could prolly add more civs. How many does BtS features? 16? 20? I can't even remember the number for vanilla.

Vanilla Civ4 has 18 civs, BTS has 34.

we could add some well-know civ such as Gondor.... Playing in the third age without any third age civ would be catastrophic.

Thanks for the vote of support! It really wouldn't seem like Arda without the main nations from LOTR. Perhaps we can also have a Rohirrim civ, distinct from the Eotheod/Northmen?

we are putting in the rohhirrim.

and i'm turning towards this more than what we had before:
*Númenórean Empire - Nazgûl stuff
*Arnor Empire - maybe some Aragorn-related music
*Gondor Empire - Gondor theme - know the perfect bit (as I said)
*?Edain Empire - no idea, maybe more Aragorn-stuff

Well, we can add Númenor as a civ, but keeping the 3 houses of the Edain as well. Gondor and Arnor should be or the same as Númenor, or the Exiled Dúnedain. They acted much in a joint way, and were later reunited by Aragorn. We could say they were a single kingdom, more like USA and Alaska, as the High King of Arnor teorically had the dominion over Gondor too, and create a different civic (like High Kingship, or the like) to represent their "independence".
And the Éotheod are the Rohirrim, but with an older name. Can change it to Rohirrim, probably it's better.

Alright.

I need a defenitive list of civs.
somone please go over everythng we've said in this thread and make a list of what we're using.

thnaks

Well, we'll keep all the old ones, and add the Vanyar, Númenor, the Exiles (what would be a good name for this civ? Exiled Numenoreans? Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor? Or simply The Exiles?), the Ironfists and Stiffbeards civ (dwarves), the Blacklocks and Stonefoots civ (dwarves too).
Pariah, you asked to design civs, so it's up to you. Of course, if you want, I may take it up, and I'll help with anything you want. It would be nice to have 3 leaders for Númenor and the Exiles, but the others only need 1; the traits of the mod are Aggressive, Protective, Creative, Philosophical, Seafaring, Creative, Expansive, Wise, Industrial, Financial, and Destructive (only for the Shadow). Also, we'll need to change the leaders for the Houses of the Edain - I'd say Haleth and Brandir for House of Haleth, Hador and Húrin for the House of Hador, and Bëor and Barahir for the House of Bëor.
Just a few more info about the Houses of the Dwarves: they are named only one time on Tolkien's works (except of course the Longbeards), in a essay called Of Dwarves and Men (published on the HoME serie). The essay also says all the houses lived in pairs, except the House of Durin wich lived alone, and that the Firebeards and Broadbeams lived in the Blue Mountains (they are already in the mod), and the others probably lived at least as far to the east as the distance between the Blue and Misty Mountains.

Okay, Pariah, can you make a list of civs with leaders? (and traits if you can)

I changed my mind, perhaps it would be better to have both Gondor and Arnor. Pariah, try to also think about other aspects, like possible city lists (specially for the dwarves), and whatever you can think of.

also, we need flavor for the dwarves. what will one group be able to do that another can't, etc... that's to everyone out there.

Well, that's hard... Maybe one of them should have more Easterling flavor (even perhaps Oliphaunts), while other hasn't so much link to mining and building (let's say, a dwarvish civ that concentrates on working wood).

Okay, Pariah, can you make a list of civs with leaders? (and traits if you can)

Sorry for the late reply, I wan't online at all yesterday. (Blame the wife.) Will try to get it done by tomorrow evening.

the Houses of the Dwarves: they are named only one time on Tolkien's works (except of course the Longbeards), in a essay called Of Dwarves and Men (published on the HoME serie).

Does anyone have a link to some online summary of this aricle, if there is one?

Where are you going to get the cities for these civs? A lot of them don't even have 5 (Pukel Men, Dunedain...), so what are you going to do about those? Make cities up?

That sounds like the normal procedure ^^

yeah, we'll probably have to make some up.

Where are you going to get the cities for these civs? A lot of them don't even have 5 (Pukel Men, Dunedain...), so what are you going to do about those? Make cities up?

Find Tolkien role-playing websites which have more detailed maps or descriptions of various regions - the work of "Other Hands." The Dunlendings, for example, were developed further by some geek or other.

OK guys: I'll finished edited the CIV4CivilzationInfos.xml file for all Elvish and Human civs, except the 3 Houses of the Edain. Not got around to the Dwarfish and Shadow civs yet.

I would prefer not to have less than 16 city names for each civ. Even using river and hill names for cities, and borrowing from every Tolkien fansite I can find, I'm having trouble finding 16 city names for:
Teleri
Falathrim
Beorians
Hadorians
Halethrim.

We will also need to decide on city and unit styles. The titles I've provisionally used in the file are: High Elvish, Low Elvish, High Mannish, Middle Mannish and Low Mannish.

BTW: I edited the file in WordPad, and it saved as a text document - which can't be uploaded to this website. How do I save it back to .xml format again?

Oh, i've done the dunland civ, and i name that unit style Dunland (thier units are going to be different than, say easterlings)

i thought something like this
High elvish
Low elvish
Eastern Dwarves (perhapes with oliphaunts, as elda said)
"Moria Dwarves" (western dwarves)
Edain
Numenor
Gondor/Arnor
Rohirrim
Dunland
Easterling
Shadow

Alot of the units will crossover, though. (meaning Uruk-hai art will be used by both dunland and Shadow, or mumakil by dwarves and easterling.

Pariah, can you send me everything when your done?

Great. About the city names, well, I used even different names of the same place to get enought names... And about the file, edit it in Altova's XMLSpy Home, it's free and much easier to work in than notepad, and reduces the overall number of bugs (I say so by my own experience, I did many mistakes while using notepad), and has some very useful options (including "Find text" and "Replace text").

I use notepad++

notepad++ is best.

I use notepad++

Can it be downloaded?

These are my existing Civ summaries (I've cut out all the syntax and switching in the xml file).

*VANYAR
Adjective VANYA
PlayerColour WHITE
ArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
TANIQUETIL
VALIMAR
SHINING PLAIN
CALACIRYA
AULË MANSIONS
YAVANNA FIELDS
NIENNA HALLS
LÓRIEN
MANDOS
OROMË WOODS
TOL ESTË
EZELLOHAR
FASKALEN
PELÓRI
ILMARIN
TARMENEL
HYARMENTIR
LAST SHORE

Leader: INGWË (Creative, Wise)
INDIS (Industrious, Financial).


*NOLDOR
Adjective NOLDO
PlayColour LIGHT_YELLOW
ArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
TIRION
FORMENOS
MITHRIM
VINYAMAR
NARGOTHROND
GONDOLIN
HITHLUM
DORTHINION
HIMRING
MINAS TIRITH
THARGELION
AGLON
MAGLOR'S GAP
HIMLAD
ERED LÓMIN
ERED WETHRIN
MITHLOND
OST-IN-EDHIL
IMLADRIS

Leader: FËANOR (Creative, Aggressive)
FINGOLFIN (Protective, Expansive)
GALADRIEL (Philosphical, Wise).


*TELERI
Adjective: TELERIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_BLUE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyle: HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
ALQUALONDË
AVALLÓNË
TOL ERESSËA
ELDAMAR
ELENDË
ARAMAN
AVATHAR
(9 more required)

Leader: OLWË (Seafaring, Creative).


*SINDAR
Adjective: SINDARIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_GREY
ArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
MENEGROTH
DORIATH
EGLADOR
SIRION VALE
NAN ELMOTH
NEVRAST
DIMBAR
EITHEL IVRIN
ANACH
ARD-GALEN
CELOS
CARAS GALADHON
LOTHLÓRIEN
CERIN AMROTH
ERYN LASGALEN
CELEBRANT FIELD
EAST LÓRIEN
ITHILIEN

Leader: ELU_THINGOL (Protective, Philosophical)
MELIAN (Creative, Protective).

*FALATHRIM
Adjective: FALATHRIM
PlayerColour: LIGHT_PURPLE
ArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH

Cities:
BRITHOMBAR
EGLARAST
TOL BALAR
ARVENIEN
NIMBRETHIL
BARAD NIMRAS
NENNING
LINAEWEN
NAN-TATHREN
DRENGIST
FORLINDON
HARLINDON
(4 more required)

Leader: CÍRDAN (Seafaring, Financial).


*NANDOR
Adjective: NANDORIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_GREEN
ArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISHUnitArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH

Cities:
ANDUIN VALES
BELFALAS
OSSIRIAND
ASCAR
THALOS
LEGOLIN
BRILTHOR
DUILWENT
ADURANT
TALATH RHUNEN
TOL GALEN
GELION_VALE
LITTLE_GELION
AMON EREB
DOMETRIEH
EN EGLADHIL

Leader: LENWË (Expansive, Organised)
DENETHOR (Creative, Organised)


*AVARI
Adjective: AVARI
PlayerColour: MIDDLE_BROWN
ArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH

Cities:
CUIVIÉNEN
HELCARTH
DURSULINOR
TAALIRAAN
THÛLONAR
IMALDAWATH
CÍMONÍEMOR
THARSITAUR
LUINDOR
AMIRAKH
KUORIND
AUZ AZUNAN
HAU NYSRIN
ELORNA
HELCAR SAEL
TAURONDE
KORONANDË
CALENTAUR
MAENA

Leader: THRANDUIL (Industrious, Protective).


*BËORIAN
Adjective: BËORIAN
PlayerColour: DARK_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities:
ESTOLAD
LADROS
NIBIN-NOGRIM
BRITHON
GLITHUI
RINGWIL
SNOWTHORN
TALATH DIRNEN
RIVIL
ARROSIACH
AELUIN
ANDRAM
(4 more required)

Leader: BËOR (Wise, Philosophical)
BARAHIR (Protective, Organised).


*HADORIAN
Adjective: HADORIAN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities: DOR-LÓMIN
CIRITH NINIATH
LAMMOTH
SERECH FEN
GALENROS
CIRITH CELEGORM
ENEDMOS
CILUMË
(8 more required)

Leader: HADOR LÓRINDOL (Aggressive, Protective)
HÚRIN (Aggressive, Organised).


*HALETHRIM
Adjective: HALETHRIM
PlayerColour: PEACH
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities:
BRETHIL
EPHEL BRANDIR
TEIGLIN VALE
AMON OBEL
BRITHIACH
AELIN-UIAL
IANT IAUR
MALDUIN
(8 more required)

Leader: HALETH (Protective, Creative)
BRANDIR (Protective, Wise).


*NÚMENOR
Adjective: NÚMENOREAN
PlayerColor: DARK_BLUE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH<

Cities:
ARMENELOS
ELDALONDË
RÓMENNA
ANDÚNIË
SORONTIL
NINDAMOS
NOIRINAN
NÍSIMALDAR
ELDANNA BAY
EMERIË
FOROSTAR
ANDUSTAR
HYARNUSTAR
HYARROSTAR
ORROSTAR
ARANDOR
VINYALONDË
CALMINDON
ANBALUKKHÔR
ZADAN-AN-ADÛN
ARHAZÚN-TARÎK
AZRULÔNI
ALKATHÔNDA
TANTÛRAK
SARÛL

Leader: TAR-ALDARION (Seafaring, Expansive)
TAR-ANCALIMË (Creative, Financial)
AR-PHARAZÔN (Seafaring, Aggressive).


*ARNOR
Adjective: ARNOREAN
PlayerColour: PURPLE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH

Cities:
ANNÚMINAS
FORNOST
THARBAD
LOND DAER
AMON SÚL
ENEROND
MAENTHIROS
ELOSTIRION
TYRN GORTHAD
ARTHEDAIN
CARDOLAN
RHUDAUR
ARGOND
THAENDOR
BARAD GIRITHLIN
TALSIR
ERYN VORN
NENUIAL
EMYN UIAL
EMYN BERIAD
BREE
ARCHET
COMBE
STADDLE

Leader: ISILDUR (Expansive, Aggressive)
ARVEDUI (Protective, Industrious)
ARAGORN ELESSAR (Expansive, Philosophical).


*GONDOR
Adjective: GONDORIAN
PlayerColour: ORANGE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: HIGH_MANNISH

Cities:
OSGILIATH
MINAS ANOR
MINAS ITHIL
DOL AMROTH
ORTHANC
UMBAR
LINHIR
IMLOTH MELUI
CALEMBEL
ETHRING
PINNATH GELIN
CORMALLEN
LEBENNIN
EMYN ARNEN
PELENNOR
CAIR ANDROS
ANFALAS
LOND ERNIL
TOL FALAS
GLANHIR
BARAD HARN
HARONDOR

Leader: HYARMENDACIL (Aggressive, Seafaring)
ELDACAR (Protective, Industrious).


*NORTHMEN
Adjective: NORTHMEN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_BROWN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE_MANNISH

Cities:
CELDUIN PLAIN
CARNEN
ÉOTHÉOD
ESGAROTH
DALE
EAST RHOVANION
DORWINION
RHOSGOBEL
EAST BIGHT
LANGWELL
GREYLIN
LIMLIGHT
CARROCK
LONG LAKE
LOEG NIGLORON
BEORN HALL
OLD FORD
NINDALF
SARN GEBIR
PARTH GALEN

Leader: VIDUGAVI (Aggressive, Protective)
BARD (Financial, Creative).


*ROHAN
Adjective: ROHIRRIM
PlayerColour: MIDDLE_GREEN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE_MANNISH

Cities:
EDORAS
HORNBURG
DUNHARROW
EASTFOLD
WESTFOLD
WOLD
UNDERHARROW
UPBOURNE
CALENHAD
MIN-RIMON
ERELAS
NARDOL
DERNDINGLE
DOL BARAN
FOLDE
EAST EMNET
WEST EMNET
HELM'S DEEP
FENMARCH
HALIFIRIEN
FIRIENFIELD<
ENTWASH

Leader: EORL (Aggressive, Industrious)
HELM (Protective, Expansive)
THÉODEN (Aggressive, Wise).


*DUNLAND
Adjective: DUNLENDING
PlayerColour: LEMON
ArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH

Cities:
ISENGARD
DUN LARACH
SÚDURI
ALCLUD
CARRAS
CAIRINN
CIRCINN
SMETRIU
FORTRIU
LUGIU
MAOLFINN
MAOLRUNAIDH
DAELMOTH
BARAD COLGRIN
DRÚWAITH IAUR
HARROWDALE
THRIHYNE
DWIMORBURG
METHEDRAS
STARKHORN
ANGREN VALE

Leader: WULF (Expansice, Financial)


*HARADRIM
Adjective: HARADRIM
PlayerColour: RED
ArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH

Cities:
ÛREZÂYAN
AR SHULAM
KORLEA
NÎLÛLONDË
NARÎK-ZADAN
NYKKEA
HAZAJ_TOLLIN
TORATH
TELARÛD
BÛR ESMER
ZIMRÉNZIL
SAZ NEJJA
KHIBIL EPHALAK
URUD-AN_KHIBIL
AYAL KOYREN
ASAYT HOR
DEZFUL
TARKHESH
BÛR SAKAL
SORIYA
CARYALON
EMELCYN
MAIADH
VIERNAG

Leader: HERÚMOR (Aggressive, Financial)
ANGAMAITË (Seafaring, Financial).


*VARIAG
Adjective: VARIAG
PlayerColor: PINK
ArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH

Cities:
STURLURTSA KHAND
KYZILKUM
AMMU KHAND
LAORKI
OVATHRAC
KORL CHELKAR
AMRÛN
KORONDAJ
FEAB
GIZAR
KAS AWCHEL
KRUK MAHUR
GOBEL ANCALIMON
MARASH
LAYOTANI
KRUK AZBANNA
TEREZE
PELEPELPLÛ
CHAJAPÛN
LODENÚLY

Leader: SANGAHYANDO (Aggressive, Industrious).


*EASTERLING
Adjective: EASTERLING
PlayerColor: DARK_YELLOW
ArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_MANNISH

Cities:
HILDÓRIEN
KYKURIAN KYN
LURS VORGANIS
LYGAW KRAW
CHEY SART
DALPYGIS
DHAHT
HEB AARAAN
ORGOTHRAATH
RELMETHER
ÛSTER KRYL
VAAG
ZYRAS
SIMOR
NHAAG
ARG-SÎMORÎG
KA'ISH
LÓCHAS DRÛS
RUURIIK
CUIVAC WÔMAW
GÔAK
WÔMAWAS DRÛS
RÔLFANDAS

Leader: ULFANG (Aggressive, Creative).

yes to both.

Notepad++ (http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm)

thanks :) i'll add those new ones in soon

Hope you like it. ;) Now to get started on the dwarves.

Do you have any more city names for those civs which are coming up short? The online Tolkien-geek world has thrown up lots of far Eastern & Southern Middle-Earth maps (enough for the extra dwarf civs, I'm sure) - but strangely enough, no new detail on Beleriand - which I need for the Falathrim & Edain lists.

No, sorry.
also, did you see my above post for art names and types?

Not that Im part of this mod thing or anything, but I have another Arda mod for civ2 (called 'tolkien', I think it came from cfc) that has dwarve cities.


Khazad-dum
Nogrod
Belegost
Nulukizdin
Ered Mithrim
Erebor
Iron Hills
Ered Luin
Azunalbizar
Barazinbar
Bundushathur
Zirak-Zigal
Hithaeglir
Aglarond
Methedras
Ered Lithui
Ephel Duath
Orocarni
Ered Ormal
Barl Syrnac

I think they're all from tolkien. But some of them have nothing to do with dwarves, like 'Ephel Duath'(mordor mts., where Frodo crossed) and 'Ered Lithui"(again, in mordor mts., but in north.)

Yes. Will incorporate them - are they all supposed to reflect both ArtStyle and UnitArtStyle?

Another thought: let's transfer the last 4 city names from the Arnor list (Bree, Staddle, Archet, Combe) to the Halethrim list. After all, the Men of Bree claimed to be descended directly from the Edain of the 1st Age.
Arnor will still have 20 city names, and Halethrim will be up to 12.

Good idea.

It's unit art style, at least until i figure out how to do the artstyle. :p

Thanks alot. please send me the civs when you're done.

Not that Im part of this mod thing or anything, but I have another Arda mod for civ2 (called 'tolkien', I think it came from cfc) that has dwarve cities.....

I think they're all from tolkien.

That's MY Civ2 Tolkien mod :cool:
The single Dwarf civ has all-original Tolkien place names, except the last 2. Ered Ormal and Barl Syrnac came from Tolkien Enterprises' larger Middle-Earth map (http://www.icewebring.com/ICE_Products/M2/images/2008.jpg).

Oh - and you're welcome to be part of this mod endeavour, I'm sure. I just butted in one day, and the others seem to have accepted me. Any help is appreciated. (Modding Civ 2 was a lot simpler!)

Great work Pariah!

Dang.
Well done! That's AWESOME!

Great work, loved them! Just a few things: lets keep the three Noldor Houses; maybe the Avari should also become the "goody huts", as the Drúedain, or part of the Nandor; the Northmen could be called Rhovanion (it was the name of Vidugavia's kingdom); put Mardil as leader for Gondor. Some names are spelled wrong: Valmar, Eglarest.
I'd like to put a note somewhere about the names wich we (or others) invented, so it would be good if you marked the "unnoficial" names on posting. I could - and probably will, anyway - list them, but there's allways the possibility I don't know/find one.
Thomas, could you edit the first post to include the updated list of civs? Keep the ones that remain unchanged, update those that changed, and add the new ones.
I use notepad++
I still prefer XMLSpy, proper for this, including may useful options like diferentiating files or such, but it's your choice. Oh, and be sure to remove the diacritics on the text file, they mess up horribly ingame.
Bob, if you want to be in the team, you are. Or, if you prefer, simply come by eventually and give sugestions/comments. No formalities here, anyone may help (thought not all sugestions are implemented).

Here are the city lists for the 3 Noldor Houses (it's from the older version of the mod, the crashed one, so it's in the XML format):
House of Fëanor
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HIMRING</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MARCH_OF_MAEDHROS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LOTHLANN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_THARGELION</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AGLON_PASS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HIMLAD</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MAGLOR_GAP</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HELEVORN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_EASTERN_BELERIAND</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_OST_IN_EDHIL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_EREGION</City>
House of Fingolfin
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MITHRIM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_DRENGIST</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_DOR_LOMIN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HITHLUM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VINYAMAR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NEVRAST</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_GONDOLIN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_EITHEL_SIRION</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ARVENIEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_FORLOND</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HARLOND</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LINDON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_IMLADRIS</City>
House of Finarfin
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NARGOTHROND</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MINAS_TIRITH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_DORTHONION</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ARD_GALEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TALATH_DIRNEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BARAD_NIMRAS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAN_TATHREN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TAR_EN_FAUROTH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AMON_RUDH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_WESTERN_BELERIAND</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CARAS_GALADHON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LAURELINDORENAN</City>

And, to end everything, some more elven names (invented, but from actual elvish words) to be assigned to the various civs: Nimphlond (White Harbor), Gaerwing (Seasplash), Helklad (Plain of Ice), Losdor (Snowland), Mirgrod (Jewelmine), Sirost (River Fortress), Esgalien (Land of the Veil), Dunar (Nighthome), Amon Celeb (Silver Hill), Eryn Laureglin (Goldlight Forest), Seregion (Bloodland).

where do you find XMLspy?

Thankyou everybody for the comments! :D

After poring throught The Book of Lost Tales and Narn I Hin Hurin, I managed to complete those short city lists. Done 4 Dwarf civs (assuming the non-Durin houses come in pairs), the Shadow, and the Minor/Nature civ in the last 2 hours.

Here's the balance of it:


*TELERI

Adjective: TELERIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_BLUE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyle: HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
ALQUALONDË
AVALLÓNË
TOL ERESSËA
ELDAMAR
ELENDË
ARAMAN
AVATHAR
KORTIRION
ALAMINÓRË
TARUITHORN
TAVROBEL
KOROMAS
ENEADUR
MAR VANWA TYALIÉVA
GRUIR
AFROS
ÍVERIN

Leader: OLWË (Seafaring, Creative).


*FALATHRIM

Adjective: FALATHRIM
PlayerColour: LIGHT_PURPLE
ArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH

Cities:
BRITHOMBAR
EGLARAST
TOL BALAR
ARVENIEN
NIMBRETHIL
BARAD NIMRAS
NENNING
LINAEWEN
NAN-TATHREN
DRENGIST
FORLINDON
HARLINDON
MINAS HYARRÓMENAR
CARAS CELAIRNEN
CERIN BALGRIST
GALATHIVEL
MISTALONDË
NADIOR

Leader: CÍRDAN (Seafaring, Financial).


*BËORIAN

Adjective: BËORIAN
PlayerColour: DARK_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: EDAIN

Cities:
ESTOLAD
LADROS
NIBIN-NOGRIM
BRITHON
GLITHUI
RINGWIL
SNOWTHORN
TALATH DIRNEN
RIVIL
ARROSIACH
AELUIN
ANDRAM
DIMROST
NAROG VALE
RILDOLACH
NIRMOLIAN
ATHILIN
TOL MORWEN

Leader: BËOR (Wise, Philosophical)
BARAHIR (Protective, Organised).


*HADORIAN

Adjective: HADORIAN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: EDAIN

Cities:
DOR-LÓMIN
CIRITH NINIATH
LAMMOTH
EITHEL SIRION
SERECH FEN
GALENROS
CIRITH CELEGORM
ENEDMOS
CILUMË
CELEBROS
NEN LALAITH
AMON DARTHIR
HAUDH-EN-NIRNAETH
CABED-EN-ARAS
BAURUIN
ALLIMIR
CITHRENOR
ANNON BARAN
ANNITHIR
BREGNAS

Leader: HADOR LÓRINDOL (Aggressive, Protective)
HÚRIN (Aggressive, Organised).


*HALETHRIM

Adjective: HALETHRIM
PlayerColour: PEACH
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: EDAIN

Cities:
BRETHIL
EPHEL BRANDIR
TEIGLIN VALE
AMON OBEL
BRITHIACH
AELIN-UIAL
IANT IAUR
MALDUIN
AMON RUDH
AMON ETHIR
HAUDH-EN-ELLETH
NEN GIRITH
NELVORIN
ANGLOR
GWAELIN
BREE
ARCHET
COMBE
STADDLE

Leader: HALETH (Protective, Creative)
BRANDIR (Protective, Wise).


*LONGBEARD DWARF

Adjective: LONGBEARD
PlayerColour: YELLOW
ArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES
UnitArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES

Cities:
KHAZAD-DÛM
GUNDABAD
EREBOR
ERED MIRHRIM
IRON HILLS
ERED LUIN
AZUNALBIZAR
KHELED-ZÂRAM
BARAZINBAR
ZIRAK-ZIGAL
BUNDUSHATHÛR
AGLAROND
HITHAEGLIR
ERED LITHU
ERED NIMRAIS
WITHERED HEATH
BARL SYRNAC

Leader: DÚRIN (Industrious, Financial)
DÁIN (Protective, Financial).


*FIREBEARD DWARF

Adjective: FIREBEARD
PlayerColour: DARK_RED
ArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES
UnitArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES

Cities:
NOGROD
BELEGOST
NULUKKIZDÎN
NAN-I-NAUGRIM
SARN ATHRAD
ERED LINDON
NÚMERIADOR
TALATH MUIL
LHÚN VALLEY
RERIR
DOLMED
HELEVORN
PITKÄRANTA
TUMNOGOTH IAUR
EGENYAR
LANTHIR LAMATH
LOTHLANN
BARNAS
LITASH

Leader: AZAGHÂL (Industrious, Creative)
TELCHAR (Industrious, Expansive).


*BLACKLOCK DWARF

Adjective: BLACKLOCK
PlayerColour: DARK_PEACH
ArtStyleType: EAST_DWARVES
UnitArtStyleType: EAST_DWARVES

Cities:
DRÚHAR-SHATHÛR
MURTHÛNIN
UAX
ÚRCHELDOR
UUL
ANGCLAX
FUSTIR-GOST
OROCARNI
LYNAHAR
ÔM
UKAL SÊJ
AZJAN
ANGIKYAK
AIGVALG
JENDIAR
RÚBOR
ISKAHÚ
BUIRSKADEKAR

Leader: DRÚHAR (Aggressive, Protective)


*IRONFIST DWARF

Adjective: IRONFIST
PlayerColour: CYAN
ArtStyleType: EAST_DWARVES
UnitArtStyleType: EAST_DWARVES

Cities:
RUURIIK
SHAY
IRIAGI
DURVÎD
GAATHGYKARKAN
ZURGHÔR
SAKAL-AN-KHÂR
VULM SHRYAC
E-SORUL SÂRE
HALTHOR
ERED LARAMOR
ZIMRATHÂNI
DREL
MAG
PEL
AIKYEN
WAARWUGAN
MAAKEN
HAEN
URTLAGGA

Leader: G'VOLIN (Wise, Financial)


*THE SHADOW

Adjective: SHADOW
PlayerColour: BLACK
ArtStyleType: SHADOW
UnitArtStyleType: SHADOW

Cities:
UTUMNO
ANGBAND
BARAD-DÛR
THANGORODRIM
DOL GULDUR
MINAS MORGUL
TOL-IN-GAURHOTH
CARN DÛM
ERED GORGOROTH
ERED ENGRIN
NAN DUNGORTHEB
CIRITH UNGOL
MORIA
DOR-DAEDELOTH
DAGORLAD
NÚRNEN
EMYN MUIL
CIRITH GORGOR
LITHLAD
MORGAI
DURTHANG
TORECH UNGOL
NARCHOST
CARCHOST
UDÛN

Leader: MELKOR (Aggressive, Destructive)
SAURON (Protective, Destructive).


*MINOR (Unplayable)

Adjective: NATURE
PlayerColour: DARK_GREEN
ArtStyleType: ENTISH
UnitArtStyleType: ENTISH

Cities:
FANGORN
OLD FOREST
GREENWOOD
NELDORETH
REGION
NAN-TASARION
OROD-NA-THÔN
TAUR-NA-NELDOR
OSSIR WOODS
LAURELINDÓRENAN
CHETWOOD
AMBARÓNA
AEARERYN
ANARIKÊ
AEGAN
ZANJATAK
BALKULÔNI
DYR
FELAYJA
FAELAAN
GAN
TAURFALAS

Leader: TREEBEARD (Wise, Philosophical)


*BARBARIAN

Adjective: BARBARIAN
PlayerColour: DARK_GREY
ArtStyleType: SHADOW
UnitArtStyleType: SHADOW

Cities: N/A

Leader: N/A


ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

Extra city names courtesy of:

Guild Companion Gazeteer of Endor
Tolkien Enterprises
Sampsa Rydman.

I guess that my city lists conflict slightly with Elda King's Noldorin civs; some adjustments may be needed.

Good job, Pariah. Is that it, then? (or are we missing something)

I'll try to finish linking techs to appropriate stuff tomorrow, but i doubt i'll finish. i'm going to the beach tomorrow, and i've some school work to finish before school starts :sad:

I'll get it done this weekend, promise :)

Good job, Pariah. Is that it, then? (or are we missing something)

The Longbeards are the race of Durin, yes. The other 3 Dwarf civs are meant to represent 2 fathers each.

I think that should be enough - unless we decide, after all, that we want a Hobbit civ...

Great, really great. About the names, don't bother about it, in my older version many places were used twice, or even more times (there were the cities of Laurelindórinan, Lórien, Lothlórien...). Now it's only do it. :mischief:

where do you find XMLspy?
They are releasing a new version now, so there isn't a Home Edition available for download. But you can download the trial for the new version, or I can send you the older version I have.

What I meant was, let's not use the exact same name twice! OK for dwarves to have a city of Khazad-Dum and the Shadow to have one called Moria (did that in my Civ2 mod); but we don't want both the House of Finarfin and the Nature civ to have "Nan-Tathren" as a city. Call it "Willow Valley" for the latter civ, perhaps...

Oh - and I just realised that I used the names Araman & Avathar twice in the same city list (Teleri). Apologies, I've amended it.

Are you sure you don't want Mithlond as a Falathrim city? I don't remember its history much, but I thought Cirdan lived there in the Third Age.
(Same with Imladris - except to Sindar)

Mithlond was founded by the remnant of the Noldor after the War of Wrath. It was ruled by Gil-Galad (grandson of Fingolfin) throughgout the 2nd Age.

Here's a (hopefully!) final ammendment. Sorry to mess you around, Thomas. :( I've integrated Elda King's Noldorin city lists with my own, using his wonderful new Elvish names, and eliminated any direct name duplications - this required changing 7 other lists.

*HOUSE OF FËANOR
Adjective: FËANOREAN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_ORANGE
ArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
FORMENOS
HIMRING
MARCH_OF_MAEDHROS
LOTHLANN
THARGELION
AGLON_PASS
HIMLAD
MAGLOR'S_GAP
HELEVORN
EAST_BELERIAND
OST-IN-EDHIL
EREGION
HELKLAD
MIRGROD
ESGALIEN
SEREGION

Leader: FËANOR (Creative, Aggressive)
MAEDHROS: (wise, Industrious).


*HOUSE OF FINGOLFIN
Adjective: NOLDO
PlayColour: LIGHT_YELLOW
ArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
MITHRIM
DRENGIST
HITHLUM
VINYAMAR
NEVRAST
GONDOLIN
ERED LÓMIN
EITHEL_SIRION
ARVENIEN
MITHLOND
FORLOND
HARLOND
LINDON
IMLADRIS
LOSDOR
AMON CELEB
ERYN LAUREGLIN

Leader: FINGOLFIN (Protective, Expansive)
FINGON: (organised, Wise).


*HOUSE OF FINARFIN
Adjective: NOLDORIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_RED
ArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
TIRION
NARGOTHROND
MINAS_TIRITH
DORTHONION
ERED WETHRIN
ARD_GALEN
TALATH_DIRNEN
BARAD_NIMRAS
TAR-EN-FAUROTH
AMON_RUDH
WEST_BELERIAND
CARAS_GALADHON
LAURELINDÓRENAN
NIMPHLOND
GAERWING
SIROST
DUNAR

Leader: FINROD (Protective, Wise)
GALADRIEL (Philosphical, Wise).


*SINDAR
Adjective: SINDARIN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_GREY
ArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: HIGH_ELVISH

Cities:
MENEGROTH
DORIATH
NELDORETH
EGLADOR
REGION
SIRION VALE
NAN ELMOTH
DIMBAR
EITHEL IVRIN
ANACH
ARD-GALEN
LOTHLÓRIEN
CERIN AMROTH
ERYN LASGALEN
CELEBRANT FIELD
EAST LÓRIEN
ITHILIEN

Leader: ELU_THINGOL (Protective, Philosophical)
MELIAN (Creative, Protective).

*FALATHRIM
Adjective: FALATHRIM
PlayerColour: LIGHT_PURPLE
ArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH
UnitArtStyleType: LOW_ELVISH

Cities:
BRITHOMBAR
EGLARAST
TOL BALAR
NIMBRETHIL
NENNING
CELOS
LINAEWEN
NAN-TATHREN
FORLINDON
HARLINDON
TOL FUIN
MINAS HYARRÓMENAR
CARAS CELAIRNEN
CERIN BALGRIST
GALATHIVEL
MISTALONDË
NADIOR
TOL UIALGAER

Leader: CÍRDAN (Seafaring, Financial).


*BËORIAN
Adjective: BËORIAN
PlayerColour: DARK_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities:
ESTOLAD
LADROS
NIBIN-NOGRIM
BRITHON
GLITHUI
RINGWIL
SNOWTHORN
RIVIL
ARROSIACH
AELUIN
ANDRAM
DIMROST
NAROG VALE
RILDOLACH
NIRMOLIAN
ATHILIN
TOL MORWEN

Leader: BËOR (Wise, Philosophical)
BARAHIR (Protective, Organised).


*HADORIAN
Adjective: HADORIAN
PlayerColour: LIGHT_CYAN
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities:
DOR-LÓMIN
CIRITH NINIATH
EITHEL SIRION
SERECH FEN
GALENROS
CIRITH CELEGORM
ENEDMOS
CILUMË
CELEBROS
NEN LALAITH
AMON DARTHIR
HAUDH-EN-NIRNAETH
CABED-EN-ARAS
BAURUIN
ALLIMIR
CITHRENOR
ANNON BARAN
ANNITHIR
BREGNAS

Leader: HADOR LÓRINDOL (Aggressive, Protective)
HÚRIN (Aggressive, Organised).


*HALETHRIM
Adjective: HALETHRIM
PlayerColour: PEACH
ArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH
UnitArtStyleType: MIDDLE-MANNISH

Cities:
BRETHIL
EPHEL BRANDIR
TEIGLIN VALE
AMON OBEL
BRITHIACH
AELIN-UIAL
IANT IAUR
MALDUIN
AMON ETHIR
HAUDH-EN-ELLETH
NEN GIRITH
NELVORIN
ANGLOR
GWAELIN
BREE
ARCHET
COMBE
STADDLE

Leader: HALETH (Protective, Creative)
BRANDIR (Protective, Wise).


*FIREBEARD DWARF
Adjective: FIREBEARD
PlayerColour: DARK_RED
ArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES
UnitArtStyleType: WEST_DWARVES

Cities:
NOGROD
BELEGOST
NULUKKIZDÎN
NAN-I-NAUGRIM
SARN ATHRAD
ERED LINDON
NÚMERIADOR
TALATH MUIL
LHÚN VALLEY
RERIR
DOLMED
PITKÄRANTA
TUMNOGOTH IAUR
EGENYAR
LANTHIR LAMATH
BARNAS
LITASH

Leader: AZAGHÂL (Industrious, Creative)
TELCHAR (Industrious, Expansive).


*MINOR (Unplayable)
Adjective: NATURE
PlayerColour: DARK_GREEN
ArtStyleType: ENTISH
UnitArtStyleType: ENTISH

Cities:
FANGORN
OLD FOREST
GREENWOOD
NAN-TASARION
OROD-NA-THÔN
TAUR-NA-NELDOR
OSSIR WOODS
CHETWOOD
AMBARÓNA
AEARERYN
ANARIKÊ
AEGAN
ZANJATAK
BALKULÔNI
DYR
FELAYJA
FAELAAN
GAN
TAURFALAS

Leader: TREEBEARD (Wise, Philosophical)


We now have 26 playable civs, plus the Nature civ - still well below the total for normal BTS. No need to get rid of the Avari!:p I reckon 2 or 3 separate Shadow-type civs might be be possible (Orcs and Goblins? Utumno, Mordor and Angmar?)

We've already said no Isengard, so that won't work. I think Utumno/Angband, Mordor and Angmar would work, I don't think there are any other 'evil empires' that aren't run by Men.

We've already said no Isengard, so that won't work.

I've used Isengard as the capital of the Dunland civ.

Let's see if Elda King & Thomas approve of multiple Shadow civs. 2 of 3 city lists wouldn't be difficult to fill!

Pariah, are you modding, or are you just putting these list together for me to use? if you want, i can send you a copy of the BTS civilizationinfo.XML and the leaderheadinfos.XML

About having less civs than BTS, well, it's more than enougth for me - and about more Shadow civs, the idea in putting only one civ is to represent that all the evil in Arda ultimately came from Morgoth, and (though the other peoples didn't see it) acted with one single purpose all the time. The Men like the Haradrim and Easterlings in truth had free-will, and weren't evil in their original purpose, just went under the lies of Morgoth/Sauron (the Worship the Darkness religion), but Morgoth, Angband, Utumno, were only a single evil in different times.
But truly, I forgot about Angmar, and it would be a good "hybrid" civ (like Dunland, mostly a Human civ but capable of building Orcs later on the tech tree).

They weren't always the same people! Morgoth and Sauron were very different. The only soldier that they had in common were orcs. They didn't even speak the same language!(Sauron invented his own language), and Morgoth\Sauron had completelly diffenrent cultures. They might have had the same purpose, but that doesn't mean that much. Lots of countries have 'the same purpose'. Even though Sauron worked for Morgoth, doesn't mean they were the same. Really, Morgoth and Saron are as similar as Arnor and Gondor, and to a certain extant the different types of Dwarves and Elves. If you don't believe me, Il show you the diffenreces.

Morgoth
Soldier people: Orcs, Dragons, Balrogs, bit more
-Where they came from: Morgoth invented Dragons and Orcs. Balrogs were Maiar.
Major Enemy: Elves
Leaders: Mostly fallen Maia.
Architecture: More natural, with mountainss, and caves, and so on, though they also have 'normal' forstresses.
Language:NOT the Black Speach

Sauron
Soldier people: Orcs, Trolls, bit more
-Where they came from: Orcs are all thats left of Morgoths armies, Trolls were found by Sauron and 'perverted'
Major Enemy: Humans
Leaders: Some fallen Maia, but mostly orcs. All the fallen Maia are from Morgoth
Architecture: Mostly normal fortress, a few caves maybe.
Language: the Black Speach, which was invented by Sauron for his own empire.

So, really, Sauron wasn't Morgoth, but a few relics of his ancient empire that really changed over the years. Sauron and a couple of his fallen Maia were really all the people who had to do with Morgoth.

Put this into the mod, and it would make little sense. You can't have Balrogs fighting Minas Tirith, and Trolls shouldn't be with Morgoth.

Yeah, angmar would be nice... Angmar is one of the civs i can raelly imagine having a leader hero.

Sauron and Morgoth did very different things, but at least for a while Sauron served Morgoth, and only became a real leader when he departed. He was the "heir" of his orcs and trolls (Morgoth created the trolls, with enchantments that animated them from stone as the ents were "made from wood"; but in that time there was no sun, and when the sun came out, he discovered it's light broked the spell), and he improved them (creating Uruks and Ologs). Sauron was less maniac them Morgoth, but he still did the will of Morgoth (that even when "out of the world" - truly, it means he was dispersed, not actually locked outside the world - influenced the world, becoming a kind of personification of evil), and used it's corruption over the world, and made the people of Numenor worship him (though only because he could not sugest himself, a prisioner, as a god). In the books, it's said a lot of times that "there was a single will moving all the enemies of the free peoples", it's the Shadow, the evil in a whole.

Wait, has the 'language' thing been discussed before? That sounds awesome (I'm a very linguistically-oriented person)!

It may have said that it was always the shadow moving the enmies, but that doesn't mean the enemies are the shadow. Mabey, instead, there could be an 'evil' religion and all the evil civs could automatically have it.

The idea with that was a sort of 'Morgoth Worship' religion. I don't know the specifics.

Pariah, are you modding, or are you just putting these list together for me to use? if you want, i can send you a copy of the BTS civilizationinfo.XML and the leaderheadinfos.XML

Don't worry, I already identified those files. I was originally writing the city lists in XML format - just put them in a pure text form for display on this forum - ad then carried on creating more lists and modifying them in text form. I promise I will get the XML files finished too. :)

We just need to be sure we are all happy with the content...

About the religions, I'll create a new thread about it. We already have the "Worship the Darkness" religion, that links The Shadow (wich founds it) to other civs. But the relation between Sauron and Morgoth is much stronger, and the differences between their realms could be simply because of the age (in the first age, there wasn't Dark Speech yet, for example - good idea of a tech for the Shadow) or the map.

And pariah, great job! Have you tested what you've done so far?

If were putting angmar in, though, i think it needs some interesting unique mechanic (any ideas?)

maybe limit the King hero to them... or make them spawn from the shadow at a certain point?

Maybe the Shadow can have a city named Angmar, and if they put their Witch-King hero unit in it, they get an option to spin it off (AI always accepts).

they need something to differentiate them from the shadow alot. (maybe something as simple as giving them all the fear promotion...)

Take a look at BFMEII: ROTWK. They have both Angmar and Mordor, and Angmar is very different from Mordor.

Angmar, and the Witch-King at Minas Morgul, were really Vassals to Mordor, and could never have stood out on their own. They were both lead by Nazgul (but who was being led?orcs? Evil Men? Someone had to live in Angmar), so maybe there could be a special Shodow unit who could secretly infiltrate an enemy civ and convert it to the shadow and become a Vassal to Mordor-which is a bit like what happened to Numenor, and might have happened to Rohan-though both countries didn't know that. Or, the Shadow could offer other kings a Ring, which would eventually have the same effect (though the player probably wouldn't accept it). But how this would be possible in the mod... the ring could make the other civ more accepting of the shadow's suggestions, which would include changing religions and becoming a Vassal-though a modified one.

This has nothing to do with Angmar as a civ, though.

Linx to BFME2 stuff -

http://bfme2.heavengames.com/factions/angmar
http://bfme2.heavengames.com/factions/mordor

Sure, they took some liberties, but it's not a bad example.

Also, perhaps all Angmar units automatically have an anti-cold promo - sort of like the way Bitter Winter and the Winter Warfare stuff works in RTW.

It would be easy to diferentiate it from the Shadow: they're a human kingdom! And, at least until the third age, they wouldn't have access to orcs and trolls (but would have several "evil" units: warlocks/sorcerers, raiders, Black Knights, and so on; they would be exactly like Dunland, but more "evil-oriented" and less "barbaric-oriented"). They would have the human unit set (yes, units are based on race, not on sub-race - edain and dark men have the same units, except UUs, as do the Noldor and the Sindar), evil UUs, and later (if they accept the Worship the Darkness) they may build orcs and trolls, and maybe Nazgul. It's a pity to lose the Witch King as a hero, but some things have to be... Now, that him and Saruman out, I for sure want king units!
Just one more thing I just realised: in a random game, if The Shadow is out the game, there would not be the WtD religion, and no orcs! It really makes a lot of sense.

FAO Thomas & Elda King:
I've finished putting my city lists into XML format.

CIV4CivilizationInfos (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27700/CIV4CivilizationInfos.zip)

The file is not complete, however, since we have yet to define unique buildings or units for our civs. Haven't tested it yet either; would anyone else like to?

Can you do the leaders to go along with this please? just make all the leaders identical, just change the name. it will be eaisier to test if you do so.

..just make all the leaders identical, just change the name. it will be eaisier to test if you do so.

I'll go along wih this for now. Have the new leader traits (Wise, Seafaring, Destructive) been coded yet?

BTW I included an Angmar civ in the above file.

Yes, but for vanilla. I think it should work on BTS as well, maybe a few modifications.

Pariah, will you have the leader file soon?

2 more days, is that OK?

BTW Thomas: do you actually live in Gibraltar?

nope, that's for one of the forum games i'm playing. i live in Ringwood, New Jersey, hence the 'wood as my location :D

2 more days is fine...

Here it is: 1st draft of Leaders XML file (http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/27700/CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.zip).

So far all I've really done is change the names (a pretty big task in its own right!) Customising all the behavioural variables for each leader will take a lot longer. As it is now, Treebeard will behave like a typical barbarian...

I have assumed that only 1 set of musical styles will be designed per civ, and named these after the first listed leader for each.

The entries are not alphabetized in this file, as with the normal Civ4 leaders - does this matter?

No, at least for me. I allways use the "Search" option to find anything... And now what we must do is the statistics for each leader - the difficult part. That was what I was redoing for vanilla when we started over (mostly because I discovered I had misunderstood some tags). I'll convert my work so far to this new file, but I don't want to continue with it, if someone else can take it. Currently I'm working out the civics, I prefer editing smaller files (or smaller pieces of code, as the techs).

I'll start doing unique unit artstlyes as soon as i'm donw with the techs.

I'll convert my work so far to this new file, but I don't want to continue with it, if someone else can take it.

Great, please pass the file back to me when you've done this. It should give me some idea how the characteristics work, and I can carry on from there.

does anybody have any idea where i can find art for some of these leaders? i mean, leaders like Sangahyando... he's not someone i've ever heard of.

He'd look Harad wouldn't he? see if Frenchman can make him?

i'm not sure if frenchman is still making leaderheads, i'll PM him to check.

by the way, i did find some really good ones. Ghandi, i'm using that ent pic as nature leaderhead

You should not be able to negotiate/play with nature, so is there any need of having a leaderhead?

i'm not sure if frenchman is still making leaderheads, i'll PM him to check.

by the way, i did find some really good ones. Ghandi, i'm using that ent pic as nature leaderhead

Cool! :) cool!

until i figure out a way of not having nature negociate, then yes, it needs a leaderhead...

You should not be able to negotiate/play with nature, so is there any need of having a leaderhead?

A picture of Treebeard would be nice anyhow - even if & when when he declares war on you for causing too much deforestation!

Another thought: could Tom Bombadil be an alternative leader for the minor Nature civ? There's no shortage of online artwork about him!

http://www.lotrfilm.com/image/200403121649_Tom_Bombadil.jpg

I'd rather have him as a hero... And it would make no difference to have anymore leaders for the nature civ, anyway.

I don't know about him being a hero though, he didn't really leave that patch of land in the old forest.

i've also never been too sure what he is.... is he a maiar, or a valar, or something like that?

I don't think anybody knows exactly what he is. From what I've read just in LOTR, I'm guessing Maia.

Tolkien never wrote for sure... It's still speculated. Maybe we should just leave it out.

Tolkien stated that Bombadil was deliberately an enigma. The character was inspired by a doll belonging to his children, whom he wrote poems about before beginning LOTR.

Yes, but how he fits in Arda? Some speculate he's Eru himself, because his wife answered to "who is he" with "he is"; some say he's a Maia, others say he is a Vala; and other say he is neither of those. That's why it's better to let him enigmatic or simply don't put him on the mod.

The Maia theory is most popular, and most logical. Tom claimed to be older than all Earthly life, remembering "the first raindrop and the first acorn," which rules out an elvish nature; Gandalf stated that he wasn't as powerful as Sauron, so he couldn't have been one of the Valar. And Tolkien almost directly denied the notion that Tom was Eru himself:

'There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers.'
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956.

The fact that the Ring didn't affect him would mean that he was a Maia of very different province from either Sauron or Gandalf - but the Ainur possessed very diverse talents and inclinations, so that isn't surprising really.

Yes, it's the most logical, he being a Maia of Yavanna. But I'd rather don't mess the mod with it... I myself think he was simply a spirit of the forest, not a Ainu or anything, as his wife was a river nymph (though you may say she was also a Maia).

I always imagined Goldberry as a sort of freshwater mermaid (minus the fish tail, of course). Tolkien mentioned female sea-spirits called Oarni in early versions of the story of Earendil; Goldberry & her mother presumably were fashioned after these.

http://www.tuckborough.net/images/goldberry.jpg

Should we feature such creatures in the mod, with or without Bombadil?

I think we shouldn't. They are from one early version of the tales, as you said, and most of those things were abandonded. They don't make a lot of sense in the final world anyway, and I myself don't have any idea for them in the mod - they are not needed, and thought maybe we could find a use for them I'd prefer not.

we might find a good rason later on, but until then, i don't think they're needed.

So what's happened with this mod? Any progress?

Well, i don't have much time, and elda can't work on it, but sifaus has started working, so there si still hope for it :mischief:

Dead again? This time it's staying dead I think...

no it isn't dead i working and i trying to do a preview now :D

: Woot!! LOTR mod = NOt Dead..!! mwhahahaha!

:cry: it's not working!!! i don't like rohan until this preview work :(

(i don't know what must i do. i try everything but it crashes !!! :sad: )

if thomas.burebug cant find problem, i'll forget this files and start from 1st age civs (4 civs i think:Noldor, Vanyar, Teleri and Shadow (i'm not sure dwarves and mans)).

Oh, no, it can't be happening! I really hope you solve this quickly... The last thing the mod need believe is another Big Bad Unsolvable Bug! :cry:
(For those who didn't know, the first version of the mod, for vanilla, faced a CTD that we couldn't solve in many months... So we had to start over for BTS).

And this mod is not dead. Perhaps fainted, but not dead. In two weaks my holydays will start, and I'll have at last some time to work on it... My school is killing me right now, I have time for almost nothing that isn't related to it (do school works, study for tests)... Though I sometimes steal some time from it to check the forums. Good luck with the bugs, and carry my burden a little more - until I can carry it by myself.

Sifaus, send what you have to elda King too.

elda, i think it's an error that occures in the update from 3.03 to 3.13

Well I've been pretty much given permission to edit the civilization list. It has been significantly shrinked, and here it is:

Noldor Empire
Race: Elves
Leaders: Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel

Teleri Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: Olwë, Thingol, Círdan

Avari Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: [Made-up Elf]

Longbeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Dúrin, Dàin

Firebeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Azaghâl, Telchar

Edain Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: ???

Arnor Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Isildur, Aragorn Elessar

Rohirrim Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Eorl, Helm, Théoden

Northmen Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Vidugavia, Bard

Dunlending Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs / Uruk-hai
Leaders: Freca, Saruman

Easterling Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leader: Khamûl

Haradrim Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leaders: Herumor

Angmar Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs
Leader: Ulfang, Witch King

The Shadow
Race: Orcs / Uruk-Hai / [much more!]
Leaders: Melkor, Sauron


Its a pretty rough list still. There were about 7 elven civs that I've compressed into 3, 4 dwarven civs now 2, etc. etc. Avari may not be necessary (really had no significance in any of Tolkien's works) and Rohan and the Northmen COULD be combined as a singular Northmen civilization.

Reason Edain is ??? is because I have NO idea who I want their leaders to be. Edain should also cover Numenor AND Gondor I think, and there are a lot of named kings for them.

I also feel that another Noldor leader is in order.

About Angmar: Witch King should obviously be a leader, and I think that Ulfang's Easterlings could fit into the Angmar civ as their "First Age" units as opposed to Dunland (I believe that the Hill Men, "Ruffians", that scoured the Shire are probably related to Ulfang's Easterlings, and the Hill Men should be a part of the Angmar civ). Ulfang used to be a leader for the Easterling civ, but I've rethought it over and now I highly doubt that Ulfang and his Easterlings have any connection to the Rhun Easterlings, so I changed the leader to Khamul, the only Rhun Easterling name that Tolkien gave.

Like the list?

If compressing my previous lists is necessary to make the mod work, you could use Beor, Hador, Hurin or Barahir as leaders for the single Edain civ. (I always thought that singular Noldor and Edain civs would suffice, but the general consensus was to have 3 of each). A 3rd Noldor leader: Fingolfin.

However, please don't compress Numenor, Arnor & Gondor into the same Edain civ! That would be like lumping the French, Spanish and Portugese into 1 civ and calling them "Roman"!

If Avari are not really necessary, I suggest reintroducing the Vanyar instead. They at least have a legitimate leader name (Ingwe).

If compressing my previous lists is necessary to make the mod work, you could use Beor, Hador, Hurin or Barahir as leaders for the single Edain civ.
That's actually a really good idea :)

Do you think you could narrow it to three though? I think that each civ should have only a maximum of three leader choices.

(I always thought that singular Noldor and Edain civs would suffice, but the general consensus was to have 3 of each). A 3rd Noldor leader: Fingolfin.
Yeah Fingolfin would work.

However, please don't compress Numenor, Arnor & Gondor into the same Edain civ! That would be like lumping the French, Spanish and Portugese into 1 civ and calling them "Roman"!
In all fairness, I do have Arnor seperate from the Edain civ :p

I have been debating about these civilizations with myself. Numenor just seems to be a distinctly "Second Age" civ, while Gondor seems to be a distinctly "Third Age" civ.

I could add Numenor and Gondor as seperate civs, and then they could just share the same unit set. Should the Edain and Arnor share this unit set to, or should these two have seperate unit sets? I was hoping I could get each civ to have its own unique "flavor" units.

By making this change, the civ list will indeed grow quite a bit. You think I should combine the Northmen and Rohirrim civs together? (Kinda like how Isengard became a part of the Dunlending civ, since Isengard and it's Uruk-hai were only a small bit in Arda history; Rohan didn't come into being until the late Third Age, and the Northmen are their distinct ancestors). On the other hand, Rohan was a seperate "nation" to the kingdoms of the Rhovanion (Dale, etc.) during the Third Age. If both are kept, then they should definitely share the same flavor unit set.

If Avari are not really necessary, I suggest reintroducing the Vanyar instead. They at least have a legitimate leader name (Ingwe).
Only problem is that the Vanyar left for Valinor even BEFORE the First Age. At least the Avari actually have their own civilization, but nearly nothing is known of them. I could just take out the Avari civ and leave it at that, but that only leaves two elvish civilizations, and to me three elven civs seems like the perfect number. I'll think about this some more.

Thanks for the suggestions Pariah :goodjob:

Maybe Gondor and Numenor can be one civ...

I thought of a spawning mechanic for Angmar. Should Barbs or Shadow conquer an Arnor city, Angmar enters the game, with a unique hero (the witch king, with it's capital the city that was conquered.)

Maybe Gondor and Numenor can be one civ...

I thought of a spawning mechanic for Angmar. Should Barbs or Shadow conquer an Arnor city, Angmar enters the game, with a unique hero (the witch king, with it's capital the city that was conquered.)
I think Gondor and Numenor should be combined, as well as the Northmen and Rohan personally.

Is that the "interesting" mechanic you were talking about for Angmar when you PMed me? Seems like a REALLY complicated. Might as well just make Angmar their own civ like all the rest.

I was just thinking that Angmar should have some Wights and other kind of undead, along with Orcs, Trolls, and Hill Men. That would be pretty sweet :D

okay...

though it would be nice...

I think it would probably be better to have most of the civs enter the game late as older ones split apart--perhaps borrowing some mechanics from Rhye's.

As in the Eotheod coming into being from a Gondorian Fief?

Some specific scripting could make it very interesting to see things like the emergence of Dol Guldur (III 1050) and Moria(III 2480) as evil seeps into the world.

As in the Eotheod coming into being from a Gondorian Fief?

Eothoed was an offshoot of the Northmen, who had a much more extensive civilisation before the Wainriders invaded.

Some specific scripting could make it very interesting to see things like the emergence of Dol Guldur (III 1050) and Moria(III 2480) as evil seeps into the world.

Isn't that more in the nature of a scenario than a modpack? Civs should not have to spawn at the same dates in every game.

yeah... what pariah said.

Edain Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: ???

Reason Edain is ??? is because I have NO idea who I want their leaders to be. Edain should also cover Numenor AND Gondor I think, and there are a lot of named kings for them.

Well, first I think is Tùrin Turambar. Also his father Hurin is important. And... i'm mistaken or the Eorl House was friend of Elves in the First Age?

I think also Gondor, Arnor and Numenor must exist in each separate way. Maybe game can start only with the Edain civ, then in the Second Age one event can "gave one gift" at that civ in the form of a city in the Isle of Numenor; now the name could change in "Numenorean civ" or similar.
At the start of the third age, the Isle dead... cover itself with ruins or so. Always in the third age, Arnor and Gondor must be divided (another event?).

I know, all this is more similar to a Scenario that a Mod, but... I think is the only way to play "truly" about the Tolkien's works.

Also, some civs are, imho, very useless. Easterling Empire and Haradrim Empire can be united in one only civ, imho, called "black numenorean empire", or "pirates empire", or so. They only exist to aid Sauron in the War of the Ring.

The Avari civ is simply useless. Also the Teleri civ is not so important.

Also, is possible use the idea about the "civ-that-splitting-and-change-name" see in Rhye's and proposed over about the humans, for the Elves. Starting only with Noldor, and then split them at least in Thangorodrim reign and Thingol reign. Also Gondolin was kind, but it was only one city.
Following this idea, these reigns could changed in Rivendell and Lothlorien, with leaders change as well.


Rohan and the Northmen COULD be combined as a singular Northmen civilization.

Good idea, but it was kind to manteain the "Rohan" name. It's affective matter.

Well, mine are only proposal. Not intent to offend any of you at all!

WHAT?! there's not any Hobbit civ?! ;_______; I know, they're not so useful but... but... well, they're the HOBBITS!! You cannot forget the Hobbits! é__è

Also: why use always the name "empire" for any Civ? For Rohan, or the Elvish and Dwarven civs "reign" could be better.

To add a bit, I actually like the idea of the Teleri, on random maps (the goal of this mod) I'd love taking the Teleri up against the Corsiars of Umbar. And interms of civs representing the servants of Sauron, I think Haradrim should definitely remain separate, but I like that Rhun isn't seperated from the Easterlings (I see this a lot)

Dunlendings could be merged with northmen, and separated from Rohan (I <3 Eorl, but there is a big difference between III 2500 Rohan and WotR Rohan.

I quite support hobbits not being a civ, they are a race of people who would rather drink tea than go to war... that being said, a SMAC style feature of 'the shire' with a few hobbit holes would be delicious.

To add a bit, I actually like the idea of the Teleri, on random maps (the goal of this mod) I'd love taking the Teleri up against the Corsiars of Umbar. And interms of civs representing the servants of Sauron, I think Haradrim should definitely remain separate, but I like that Rhun isn't seperated from the Easterlings (I see this a lot)

Dunlendings could be merged with northmen, and separated from Rohan (I <3 Eorl, but there is a big difference between III 2500 Rohan and WotR Rohan.

I quite support hobbits not being a civ, they are a race of people who would rather drink tea than go to war... that being said, a SMAC style feature of 'the shire' with a few hobbit holes would be delicious.
:)

Dunland is a combination of Dunland and Isengard, with early units being wild men, and later untis Uruk Hai...

WHAT?! there's not any Hobbit civ?! ;_______; I know, they're not so useful but... but... well, they're the HOBBITS!! You cannot forget the Hobbits! é__è

Also: why use always the name "empire" for any Civ? For Rohan, or the Elvish and Dwarven civs "reign" could be better.
see above...

And the empire thing is just a placeholder until we put in more appropriate names.

Well, first I think is Tùrin Turambar. Also his father Hurin is important. And... i'm mistaken or the Eorl House was friend of Elves in the First Age?

I think also Gondor, Arnor and Numenor must exist in each separate way. Maybe game can start only with the Edain civ, then in the Second Age one event can "gave one gift" at that civ in the form of a city in the Isle of Numenor; now the name could change in "Numenorean civ" or similar.
At the start of the third age, the Isle dead... cover itself with ruins or so. Always in the third age, Arnor and Gondor must be divided (another event?).

I know, all this is more similar to a Scenario that a Mod, but... I think is the only way to play "truly" about the Tolkien's works.

Also, some civs are, imho, very useless. Easterling Empire and Haradrim Empire can be united in one only civ, imho, called "black numenorean empire", or "pirates empire", or so. They only exist to aid Sauron in the War of the Ring.

The Avari civ is simply useless. Also the Teleri civ is not so important.

Also, is possible use the idea about the "civ-that-splitting-and-change-name" see in Rhye's and proposed over about the humans, for the Elves. Starting only with Noldor, and then split them at least in Thangorodrim reign and Thingol reign. Also Gondolin was kind, but it was only one city.
Following this idea, these reigns could changed in Rivendell and Lothlorien, with leaders change as well.



Good idea, but it was kind to manteain the "Rohan" name. It's affective matter.

Well, mine are only proposal. Not intent to offend any of you at all!

NO offense taken at all...

I'm not going to address everything you said, as i have no time, but your idea of stealing from rhye's is interesting, though i don't know if it is possible to change a civ's leader and name (would require more coding than the little, little bit i know)

Easterlings and harad are different, i'm pretty sure there's a thread on that somewhere... sorry i'm not sure :blush:

thanks for the attention
thomas

Ya know, I'd jus like to point out that the nature of a mod is to allow the players free rein in wat goes on. If ya wanna get into dates and all that BS, then make it a damn scenario.

Noldor Empire
Race: Elves
Leaders: Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel

Teleri Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: Olwë, Thingol, Círdan

Avari Empire
Race: Elves
Leader: [Made-up Elf]

Longbeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Dúrin, Dàin

Firebeard Empire
Race: Dwarves
Leader: Azaghâl, Telchar

Edain Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: ???

Arnor Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Isildur, Aragorn Elessar

Rohirrim Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Eorl, Helm, Théoden

Northmen Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: Vidugavia, Bard

Dunlending Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs / Uruk-hai
Leaders: Freca, Saruman

Easterling Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leader: Khamûl

Haradrim Empire
Race: Evil Men
Leaders: Herumor

Angmar Empire
Race: Evil Men / Orcs
Leader: Ulfang, Witch King

The Shadow
Race: Orcs / Uruk-Hai / [much more!]
Leaders: Melkor, Sauron

Edain Empire
Race: Good Men
Leaders: ???

i'm not sure about this. Couse i want Numenore civ :D

That seems right.

some good news.

I'm going to start working on the mod again this week :)

Is Elda back?

Awesome.

I don't know if elda's back...

Then its a big

:(

about having civs decay: this game was made in a way that we could see what would happen if civs didn't decay; it was made so history doesn't have to repeat it's self. i think decay should have no consideration in the mod unless it has to do with resources... for example: the elves and dwarves lack later resources or have difficulty getting them, so they cant get the unit that is a small step up from the current one they have: this means they need an extra effort not to decay... but it is your mod after all.
one other thing: gandalf said sauron was just a legion or emissary.
and don't forget to read the hobbit if you havn't (its actually just a good book)

one other thing: gandalf said sauron was just a legion or emissary.
and don't forget to read the hobbit if you havn't (its actually just a good book)

I have, and i've read the silmarrion, which explains what gandlaf means by that.

Early one, when the world is being created, Eru (the one) sang into existance spirits to help in and care for creation. however, one of those, Melkor, resented the lack of power he had over creating creation, and so turned away from illuvatar, and became Morgoth, the dark lord. when he turned, he brought along a great number of other spirits, the most powerful of which was Sauron.

ah, thanks. i'll be sure to read back when i don't understand what any charicter sais. i honestly wasn't sure what gandalf ment.

goblin town! will goblin town at least be a barbarian city name if goblins aren't taken into the mod? and trolls... i forget the names, but a hut should be put where they were with a lot of gold, or a tech or something good.

another thing... beorn. what of him and those who his power had been passed to: is he taken into account? (i'm really just to lazy to check myself).

an interesting thing would be to have a seige tower which prevents collateral damage for the units inside but kills them if it is destroyed. it, of course, would have to be a transport with 1 movement.

and another question: are you going to put in gunpowder units and late era units?

its very good to know of others who know of more of middle earth than the common shire to mordor map. i have it, but it isn't that great. flat and all.
i'm not bad with the geography, but the history i'm blank.