GOTM 70 Pre-Game Discussion

Civ_Steve is on holiday, but he put together a game for release before he went. I'm just helping-out in posting the pre-game discussion thread.

Civilization: Spain
Rivals: 7.
Barbarians: Raging
Difficulty: Emperor
Land Form: Continents, 70% ocean, Standard map.
Geology: 4 billion years old, normal, cool
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm70large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm70mini.jpg

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

Start with an extra 50 Gold
Start with 2 Spearmen
Start with knowledge of The Wheel



Predator-Class Challenges:

Start without Ceremonial Burial
All AI get 2 more bonus offensive units
AI get 2 more starting unit support, and 1 more unit support per city


A reminder: do not post any game information to this thread after you have downloaded the save file. Absolutely no spoiler information for this or any GOTM is to be posted in this thread!

A cow and three BGs... but you'll have to settle on one of the BGs. Then again, you can also move NW or NE and wait until your capital expands through palace culture. The river is of course very convenient.

But no coastal capital, and no coast in sight... but if there is a coast nearby, it's most likely somewhere NW, as the river probably goes from the mountains in the east to the sea in the west or northwest. Unless it's an 'odd' river...

And no hills around and only a couple of mountains east won't give you that much production later on, but in the AA those BGs will probably suffice.

Anyway, I won't play this game untill I finish the current COTM, which might take a while as I won't have access to c3c this week...

There doesn't seem to be a lot to talk about... worker to the cow, almost certainly settle in place - I can't think of anything my worker could see that would make me move the settler. Settling on a BG is less bad than wasting an entire turn moving the settler IMO.

Predator-Class Challenges:
Start without Masonry

I think Spain starts with Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial - which one are we really losing?

Its Ceremonial Burial, apparently (Thanks, Alan). I've updated the first post (Alan also confirmed that there are 7 rivals).

I'll settle NE- I think the BG is too good to waste, and it'll put at least one hill/mountain in the radius.

I've never played Spain before. How does the conquistador compare to the knight? Do they retreat and/or upgrade?

How does the conquistador compare to the knight? Do they retreat and/or upgrade?They're like the C3C Ancient Cavalry, with the movement of a Mongol Keshik. No upgrades... but they're plenty fast.

The keshik just ignores the movement penalty of mountains (what about hills?). The cortez treats all land tiles as road, which is quite a bit better. And surely it does upgrade from something, i.e. the scout, which is really more important than upgrading to something. It's an expensive upgrade, at 120g, but the cortez does have a resource requirement (horses), so how about using disconnect/reconnect to build a whole army of them... I'm sure we mull this idea over every time Spain comes around but no one ever actually tries it. :)

Spain can't build scouts(being commercial and religious) so the conquistadors would have to be built not upgraded. Assuming you have iron, that's 70 shields which could be used to build a knight instead. Having a few around would definitely be useful though, especially if the terrain is rough.

I can't think of anything my worker could see that would make me move the settler.

Can only think of Wine on Hill. What the Worker can see of flatlands after moving onto the Cattle tile will be within the city limits anyway.

Spain can't build scouts(being commercial and religious) so the conquistadors would have to be built not upgraded. Assuming you have iron, that's 70 shields which could be used to build a knight instead. Having a few around would definitely be useful though, especially if the terrain is rough.

:wallbash: Ah, that would explain why we don't use that strat! Well, no matter; I'll be going to space anyway, so no cash to spare for upgrading.

Spain can't build scouts(being commercial and religious) so the conquistadors would have to be built not upgraded. Assuming you have iron, that's 70 shields which could be used to build a knight instead. Having a few around would definitely be useful though, especially if the terrain is rough.
What makes the Conquistador awesome is that, as an army of conquistadors, it can pillage 9 squares in one turn!

:eek: :D

I think that's only in C3C.

I think that's only in C3C.
Oh yeah... :(

Well, with in being Emperor I believe I will just settle 1 NE to still be on the river but keeping the BGL. I would go looking for coast, but I figure why not just do a palace jump for that if things are easy enough to. Or is that stupid?

Spain... In my SG we did a palace jump to get away from the coast. Our decision was based on having the Palace be more central. Interesting start, bet the coast isn't far off. Cool means tundra, and this start looks promising with Spain being neary equatorial. With a cow and 3 BG's, can pump out settlers fast.

I think I will move the worker to the cow and then depending on what can be seen from there move my settler 1E or 1NE. This will have three benefits:

The capital stays next to the river
The cow is kept inside the 3x3 starting position so can be utilized right from the beginning
I don't have to settle on the BG


I have been reading all the comments in this thread as to whether it is worth wasting a move for not settling on the BG, but it looks like even among the experts there's no agreement on this question...

I'm still a newcomer in terms of Civ3 strategy, but my reasoning goes like this: if I move my settler in the first round, I loose the income of one round, which is basically: 3 food (it's 5 food, but 2 have to be substracted for feeding the town, while my settler doesn't eat anything during the first round...), 2 or 3 shields (depending on whether the cow is on a BG) and 3 gold. However I will gain one extra shield per round for the rest of the game. During the Golden Age and during Mobilization this will be two extra shields and also once the city has a factory and a power plant, it will be two extra shields per round. If the GA or Mobilization period is after I have factory&plant, it will mean 4 extra shields during that time!

So all this could potentially add up to something between 400 - 800 extra shields, depending on how long the game lasts and how much time I spend in Mobilization. This looks like a huge gain to me, or is there anything wrong with my reasoning?!

Cheers, Lanzelot

I can never quite remember the details of settling on a shield tile, but I think you get the shield back when you reach city size, i.e. at size 7 a town settled on a bg produces 2 food and 2 shields from the city tile.
Even if that were not the case, we would still be comparing the loss of 2f+2s+4c in the opening phase with a gain in shields later in the game. Because gains in the early game multiply themselves up as we go along, we may decide that the extra turn in the beginning really is more powerful. But it is very hard to quantify, of course.
Personally, I think I will be moving the worker to the moo, then doing another bit of fog-gazing. With the tiles thus identified, I will run some different scenarios "in xls", and so decide whether to settle on the spot or move. After all, the extra bg may be able to beat the extra turn's production, even at the very start of the game, if it enables a better-timed granary (although it is unlikey). Or perhaps that bg is necessary to build a 6-turn combo factory...

I can never quite remember the details of settling on a shield tile, but I think you get the shield back when you reach city size, i.e. at size 7 a town settled on a bg produces 2 food and 2 shields from the city tile.

I'm not an expert on micromanaging, but I believe that is only the case for industrious civs. I may be wrong there though...

Perhaps you need to be out of despotism too? Certainly we had two shields in the city tile of Constantinople in SG12 - settled on plains, government was feudalism of course.

I'm not an expert on micromanaging, but I believe that is only the case for industrious civs. I may be wrong there though...

Industrious tribes get an extra shield regardless where the city was founded. On a bonus grassland tile that adds up to three shields in a city centre.

Side note: When founding a city on Plains/Fur or BG/Fur, a second shield is present in the city centre at all city sizes.

Yesterday night I tried a little experiment in order to clear this up: I started a little PTW Hotseat with two Civs: Rome (Industrious) and England (Non-Industrious).

By the way, in the following overview (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/infocenter/#civilizations) I found Rome listed as "Militaristic & Commercial", whereas my manual (as well as the Civilopedia) says they are "Militaristic & Industrious". Also, in the infocenter Persia is listed as "Industrious & Scientific", while the manual says they are "Commercial & Scientific". Can someone please correct this?

Anyway, I settled Rome and London on a BG and kept going until they reached size 7. Then in both cases there appeared a second shield in the city tile. So this does not seem to depend on the Industrious treat. One I had changed to Monarchy on the way and the other to Republic. So that doesn't make a difference either. I also switched them back to Despotism, and the extra shield is still there, so PaperBeetle's question (whether you need to be out of Despotism to recover the shield) can be answered with "no".
The third shield in the city tile (the "Industrious treat") does not appear before the city reaches size 13. (In Despotism this third shield is then of course lost because of the "-1 malus".)

So this observation puts my earlier reasoning into a completely different perspective:

After the city has reached size 7, we don't loose anything anymore.
When the city is size 1-6, it depends on how many other useful tiles are still available. Because as long as we still have an equivalent tile to work on, we wont miss the BG we settled on, and consequently will not loose any shield!


For example in the starting position of GOTM70, if we settle on the spot, we have two more BG and the cow. So these three tiles can be worked on while the city is size 1-3, and we don't loose any shield compared to if we would have settled on 1NE and then worked on the cow and the two BGs at 1N and at the original start square. (In this particular case, when settling on the spot, we do loose one commerce, though, because the BG at 1W, which we will work on at size 3, is not at the river, but the original start position is.)

Let's assume the 12 tiles, which are currently not visible, will reveal 2 more excellent squares. Then the city can be up to size 5 and not loose any shield!
This now makes moving the settler a pure waste of time!

The best strategy would be: settle on the spot, keep the city at size <6 while producing settlers&workers, and then after that phase rush it through to size 7. With the cow and being on a river this is possible in just 7 rounds (4 with a granary). So we are looking at a total loss of 7 (or 4) shields, and for this it is really not worth wasting the first move!

I hope this answers the question. Moving the settler in the first round just to get off a BG is almost always a bad idea. It may only be worth it, if that BG is the only good tile within the 21 tiles of the start position. (But in that case you may as well resign and start a new game :cry: )

Lanzelot

Well I did some tests too(PTW). I agree with Lanzelot that the extra shield is recovered as the city becomes a "city"(size 7).

The industrious trait seems to have no effect though at size 7. According to the civilopaedia, there should be an extra shield at size 7 for industrious civs. Then there is another at size 13.

Unless I'm wrong and the bonus shields come at sizes 13 and 20/21.

Lanzelot- Rome is commercial and militaristic, Persia is scientific and industrious. Well done for your research and analysis! Should be useful.:goodjob:

Lanzelot- Rome is commercial and militaristic, Persia is scientific and industrious.

Ok, that explains, why Rome had the same amount of commerce in the city tile as London: an incredible 8 at size 13! I had been puzzled by this, thinking only England was commercial, so London should have a much better commerce in the city tile than Rome.

But this also means there's a mistake in my printed manual as well as in the online Civilopaedia!
Perhaps a translation mistake? I have the German version of the Conquests edition, and it clearly says:
"Rom: industriell und militaristisch"
"Persien: wissenschaftlich und wirtschaftlich" :confused:

Lanzelot

The mistake about Rome and Persia also shows at the official Fireaxis Civ3 homepage. Just compare the following two links:

http://www.civ3.com/devupdate_civspecific.cfm
http://www.civ3.com/de/devupdate_civspecific.cfm

The first is the English version, the second the German mirror.
On both pages click on the "cross-table of civ-specific abilities" to see a larger picture. The rows for Romans and Persians differ in those two tables...!

Should perhaps post the glitch in the Civilopaedia in the "Unofficial Data Patch Project" thread.

Lanzelot

Hi all,
I made a mouse slip on my laptop's touchpad yesterday evening, accidentally triggering the end-of-turn instead of moving to my next unit. Usually I would say, "ok, bad luck, some of my units loose one move, why aren't you more careful..." and play on.
But this one really hurt, as I hadn't yet eliminated that Barb horseman close to two of my workers... (Had enough warriors close by, just did not get to move them yet. :mad: ) At that early stage (have just started this weekend) the two lost workers are really important for me, and as I don't think this would constitute cheating, I would like to ask, whether I may reload from the previous autosave.

I will not alter any of my decisions, will make the same moves (a couple of workers and warriors) to get me to exactly the same point where the turn had ended abruptly and then continue with my other units.

ainwood & civ_steve: if you want to evaluate the situation, I can turn in my .sav file to you.

Thanks, Lanzelot

Hi Lanzelot,

We used to be more lenient with mis-clicks and 'toddler interactions', but in recent games (last 3 years or so) we have held to a more stringent (and unambigous) ruling that a player can play on only from these 2 situations:

1.) Player saves and immediately exits the game normally. Player can resume play from this latest save. (Normal situation)

2.) Player experiences a crash, system failure or game hang-up and can't save. Player can resume play from the most recent autosave (or save if made during the turn), attempting to recreate moves as best as possible, and notifies the staff. Player can make reasonable changes to play sequence to avoid a situation that caused the game failure, but notify staff first for a ruling on 'reasonable'.

At this stage the GOTM has to be consistent, and I ask you to play on from after this toddler interacion. I know it's something of a penalty, but if you consider it a random event creating a challenge to overcome, this may make a more interesting game and story to tell!

civ_steve

The best strategy would be: settle on the spot, keep the city at size <6 while producing settlers&workers, and then after that phase rush it through to size 7. With the cow and being on a river this is possible in just 7 rounds (4 with a granary). So we are looking at a total loss of 7 (or 4) shields, and for this it is really not worth wasting the first move!

I hope this answers the question. Moving the settler in the first round just to get off a BG is almost always a bad idea. It may only be worth it, if that BG is the only good tile within the 21 tiles of the start position. (But in that case you may as well resign and start a new game :cry: )
Thanks for the analysis. Some nice information. :thumbsup:

However your calculation has a severe mistake:
You will not get the extra shield for all turns your town stays between 4 and 6 - and that's a lot of turns in a settler factory's life! It's not only the 7 / 4turns you calculated but it's 4 turns for every settler. Unless you build it at size 7.0 in which case you get the shield on growth - so 3 turns for every settler. However I doubt you'll do something useful with that 31st shield. :nono:

So yes, I'm gonna move. :p

However your calculation has a severe mistake:
You will not get the extra shield for all turns your town stays between 4 and 6 - and that's a lot of turns in a settler factory's life!

Hi Paul,

Gah! Don't post in this thread after starting the game!! Never post Spoiler information in a non-Spoiler thread for any game, ESPECIALLY A GAME THAT IS STILL ACTIVE!!!
SNIP - SNIP - SNIP


Lanzelot

Oops, sorry, what have I been thinking...?

Well, perhaps we can start a new thread and discuss this topic there in general. I mean to do a bit more research about this anyway (and about how the industrial and commercial treats influence the production of the city center) and will publish a summary somewhere else.

Lanzelot