I have seen it said that the optimum strategy is to expand until your science rate drops to 40% and then concentrate on building economic infrastructure. Is this an old wives' tale or is there some justification for it? Does the optimum expansion rate depend on the level you are playing? What factors in your starting position would make you want to expand faster or slower - food, key resources, neighbours?

RJM

it aint an old wives tale. Though, I would say more 60 % if ur not sure about what ur doing. The idea is quite simple, u dont want to drop very low on ur technologies research on early game. Also, the more u loose money (and research) , the longuer it is to put ur economie back.

For the expansion, it depends. Having alot of food and production will help u pop settlers faster. But yeah, u want to beat the AI on the key ressources and u dont want to have 3 cities between two 10-cities civs, hehe. So u try to build foward to the AI. And of course u send warrior/explorer to see whats around and u research technologies that shows key ressources.

U have to build the maximum cities u can without crashing ur economy too much and without slowing to much ur research I would say...

I read on one of these forums to start building a settler if your running a profit at 70% science. It was one of the best pieces of advice.

My new rule of a thumb is that if I make about 25 beakers per turn I take every happiness resource I can find or if there's enough food to run 2 scientist nicely so I can whip grannies and libs without problems I take it. It's been working for me of course if I'm not tied to an early war it's a different story.

40% is a decent rule of thumb for a newbie, it will keep you from accidentally ruining your own economy. But there is no optimal strategy here, fast expansion and staying small each have benefits.

Fast expansion will increase your civ's overall production of hammers, and allow you to control more resources. It can lead to a higher tech rate in the long run once your cities are developed and their income surpasses their maintenance. The problem is that you need to research some vital techs like currency and code of laws to be able to develop your cities, and the researching will be slow if you expand too fast too early.

Staying small will keep your tech rate high in the short run, and it will allow you to spend hammers on things other than settlers. This is useful for teching fast to a religion or a military tech, and building wonders or an army. But you can't stay small forever if you want to win. You'll need to capitalize on your short-term advantage by going to war at some point to expand your territory.

You need to consistently expand. Each city you build should have workers to develop it quickly. Most cities should be commerce cities. You need to ensure you don't delay currency and col. Don't stop expanding until the land is gone. Or if you have a close neighbour finish wiping him/her out, recover your econ, and then follow the same procedure of consistent expansion. Once the land runs out, gear up for war with your closest neighbour. Only stop expanding once you have 15-20 cities (enough for space). Or, if you are going dom, never stop expanding.

If you are going cultural things are different of course.

The importance of code of laws and currency cannot be overstated. If your science rate is at 60% and still falling and you haven't got these, you need to stop expanding, or you'll stagnate early in the tech tree just paying your own maintenance. Courthouses are invaluable for keeping costs down (and now help with espionage as icing on the cake). Currency not only gives you extra trade routes, but allows to to get gold of the AI to run deficit research - also vital if your maintenance costs are getting high.

40%/60%, as people have said, it's just a rule of thumb. You might find it beneficial to drop almost to 0% if it helps you win a land grab, but that requires care to ensure you can revive your economy afterwards.

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle. I recently played an Emperor game with a financial leader. I quickly realized I had an isolated start with a closeby moderately sized island. I had room for 15-16 cities, most of which would be coastal. My second city was coastal with copper, so I beelined to metal casting and built the colossus. Every coastal city I founded needed only pop 2 to produce 8 commerce. Although my science rate kept dropping, my beakers kept increasing. I didn't care if my science rate dropped to 30% ... I knew each extra city would quickly be contributing more than it consumed in maintenance.

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle.
True, but one must also remember that settling a city not only means paying the maintenance for that city, but also paying an increased maintenant on every single other city.

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle. I recently played an Emperor game with a financial leader. I quickly realized I had an isolated start with a closeby moderately sized island. I had room for 15-16 cities, most of which would be coastal. My second city was coastal with copper, so I beelined to metal casting and built the colossus. Every coastal city I founded needed only pop 2 to produce 8 commerce. Although my science rate kept dropping, my beakers kept increasing. I didn't care if my science rate dropped to 30% ... I knew each extra city would quickly be contributing more than it consumed in maintenance.

True, but one must also remember that settling a city not only means paying the maintenance for that city, but also paying an increased maintenant on every single other city.


Lots of good advice guys - thanks.

As far as covering the maintenance costs are concered, how do I work out the costs of the next city? Has someone published a chart showing costs, sizes, levels, etc?

RJM

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total :commerce: generated by each city to be turned into :science:. If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of :science: not your % value or :commerce:. In truth a :science:/turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking +:science: or +%:science: buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high :commerce: cities is better then spreading it out to many low :commerce: cities.

@RJM http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/city_upkeep.php

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total :commerce: generated by each city to be turned into :science:. If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of :science: not your % value or :commerce:. In truth a :science:/turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking +:science: or +%:science: buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high :commerce: cities is better then spreading it out to many low :commerce: cities.

This is very good advice. In one game I rexed hard with the Dutch. I had hereditary rule and was growing my cities vertically as well. I had only 40% tech slider, but was working a pile of cottages and my tech was really humming along at an alarmingly quick pace for that early in the game.

Bottom line: Cottages, Currency, CoL ftw

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total :commerce: generated by each city to be turned into :science:. If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of :science: not your % value or :commerce:. In truth a :science:/turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking +:science: or +%:science: buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high :commerce: cities is better then spreading it out to many low :commerce: cities.

Thanks for the link to the article on city costs.

Let me re-phrase what you said above to make sure I understand it. The total research (:science:) generated by your empire is more important than the % research rate for judging the benefit of expansion. A new city should not lower your total :science:. If total :science: is the yardstick for judging whether to expand, an extra city has to do a lot of work to justify expansion. I get the impression that an extra city usually means 10% lower research to produce the same net income. So the new city has to produce quite a few :science:. (Clearly trade deals for techs or resources can help keep the science rate up.) After currency, a new city generates at least 3 :commerce: - even better than that if there are enough foreign cities for trade routes, but that is usually only after astronomy. So, it looks like a new city needs some form of trade special - an ocean food square, gems, etc to justify expansion. (Or more likely if the potential city site doesn't have a trade special, it needs to have something else important going for it to justify founding it.)

As far as the total :science: is concerned, I have various research targets that I aim for - but don't always achieve. For example 100 :science: per turn in AD 1 and 1400 :science: per turn after building research labs. Do other people have targets of this sort?

RJM

As far as the total :science: is concerned, I have various research targets that I aim for - but don't always achieve. For example 100 :science: per turn in AD 1 and 1400 :science: per turn after building research labs. Do other people have targets of this sort?


I run a SE, which makes the 40-60% rules somewhat irrelevant (because I get beakers from the specialists).

So, yes, I usually keep notes of the beakers I make/era, so that I can compare what/how I am doing with my previous games.
The thing is, sometimes I am slow, but so is every other civ (may depend on map and political situation). So it's hard to compare different games.

I read on one of these forums to start building a settler if your running a profit at 70% science. It was one of the best pieces of advice.

You have my builder mentality.
Surely you build an army instead!

I have a question about where to produce settlers. In the early game when you are trying to grab land and resources, do you have one city that is basically your settler factory or do you have each new city produce the next settler at some point. For example, when a new city hits pop 3, they make the next settler.

There may be various strategies for doing this, but I usually use this one:

rex capital to happy cap, impove everything capital can work (best to have 2 workers before first settler to do so), then start settler spamming in capital. Grow your second city ASAP (send the two workers with the settler, settle where food is, imporve and work only food rich tiles) and have it worker spamming once it reaches happy cap until you feel you have grabbed enough land (ALL other cities should produce defenders & a little infra...)

Expansion is limited by money, plain and simple. If you don't have a way to make money and you expand, you will lose the ability to research and will eventually lose the game.

The best ways to make money in the early game:

* found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion
* build cottages
* access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
* build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.

Try to settle cities in good money-making locations with an adequate food source. Then get your workers there to develop it quickly.

The best ways to make money in the early game:

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion

3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce

The only reason I can imagine placing currency higher than courthouses on that list is that it appears earlier on in the tech tree. But I guess thats your reason too? :)

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion

Agreed; the shrine's most useful once you've put Market+Grocer+Bank+Wall Street in the city.
Most Awesome start position in the Earth 1000 A.D. scenario: China. You start with the Taoist and Confucian Shrines, India (next door) has the Buddhist and Hindu shrines, and Jerusalem and Mecca (within easy reach have the other three. Massive income FTW in the late game!

The only reason I can imagine placing currency higher than courthouses on that list is that it appears earlier on in the tech tree. But I guess thats your reason too? :)

Every city you build increases the power of extra trade routes.

Every courthouse you build delays your expansion plans.

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion

I wasn't trying to list things by priority. :p I was just trying to get them out there for the OP so he could think of his expansion in financial terms, not just in terms of cranking out settlers.

I value the religion/shrine path because it also helps with happiness, culture, and (sometimes) diplomacy. But it's not the only way.

Every city you build increases the power of extra trade routes.

Every courthouse you build delays your expansion plans.

Every city you build without a courthouse drains your economy.

You need to consistently expand. Each city you build should have workers to develop it quickly. Most cities should be commerce cities. You need to ensure you don't delay currency and col. Don't stop expanding until the land is gone. Or if you have a close neighbour finish wiping him/her out, recover your econ, and then follow the same procedure of consistent expansion. Once the land runs out, gear up for war with your closest neighbour. Only stop expanding once you have 15-20 cities (enough for space). Or, if you are going dom, never stop expanding.

If you are going cultural things are different of course.

:agree:

The importance of code of laws and currency cannot be overstated. If your science rate is at 60% and still falling and you haven't got these, you need to stop expanding, or you'll stagnate early in the tech tree just paying your own maintenance. Courthouses are invaluable for keeping costs down (and now help with espionage as icing on the cake). Currency not only gives you extra trade routes, but allows to to get gold of the AI to run deficit research - also vital if your maintenance costs are getting high.

40%/60%, as people have said, it's just a rule of thumb. You might find it beneficial to drop almost to 0% if it helps you win a land grab, but that requires care to ensure you can revive your economy afterwards.

Another added benefit of Currency is that you can sell techs, which allows for even faster expansion at the expense of being forced to stop and build Courthouses.

As OKScientist mentioned, the 40-60% rule doesn't particularly apply to an SE, because net :science: isn't tied as heavily to the sliders.

CoL is highly important to a rapidly expanding SE, because it allows you to skip nearly all infrastructure to focus on food tiles and immediately begin running Scientists to make up for the city's economic impact.

I typically REX like mad at CoL and stop when there is no more land so I can whip infrastructure and start building up.

I have a question about where to produce settlers. In the early game when you are trying to grab land and resources, do you have one city that is basically your settler factory or do you have each new city produce the next settler at some point. For example, when a new city hits pop 3, they make the next settler.

If you're truely aiming for RAPID expansion, the same city needs to steadily churn out Settlers one after another, because the amount of time it will take to improve the new city's land, grow it then start another Settler will ultimately set you back.

I typically have 3 cities in the beginning of my game which "support" my REXing:

A high :food: city devoted to running max Scientists.
A high :hammers: city devoted to churning out Axeman/Archer and the occasional Worker.
A hybrid moderate-level :food:/:hammers: city devoted to churning out Settlers and Workers.

The focus for every new city is improving the food tiles first for growth and Scientist support (under Caste System). My typical goal is two Scientists and +2:food: remaining for either growth or infrastructure.

Somewhere in the mix I also plot out my new Bureaucratic Capital (if it's going to move somewhere) and begin cottage spamming it.

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion

I think that's the longest post of yours I've ever read.

I still prefer an SE to a CE, but where CE's are concerned, QFT! :goodjob:

I usually only want 9-10 cities at most but I always build settlers too slowly and find my neighbors have 10 or so cities when I have like 4-5. This is one thing I need to imrove on. I tend to have my capital working on wonders but maybe I should be pumping out settlers first??

Some people have said build settlers until your science is around 40% and others have said its better to watch the number of :science: you are generating.

So, in the ancient era when you are building cities, what is a good amount of :science: and at what point should you hold off on building another settler?

I usually only want 9-10 cities at most but I always build settlers too slowly and find my neighbors have 10 or so cities when I have like 4-5. This is one thing I need to imrove on. I tend to have my capital working on wonders but maybe I should be pumping out settlers first??

Some people have said build settlers until your science is around 40% and others have said its better to watch the number of :science: you are generating.

So, in the ancient era when you are building cities, what is a good amount of :science: and at what point should you hold off on building another settler?

Don't think of it in terms of a hard # because it's always the more the merrier. What you have to consider is this: If building another city will force you to drop the slider 10% will the commerce generated by this new city compensate for the 10% drop in research empire-wide? If the answer is yes, you build it. If not, you hold off (unless you are willing to accept a lower tech pace temporarily).

Don't think of it in terms of a hard # because it's always the more the merrier. What you have to consider is this: If building another city will force you to drop the slider 10% will the commerce generated by this new city compensate for the 10% drop in research empire-wide? If the answer is yes, you build it. If not, you hold off (unless you are willing to accept a lower tech pace temporarily).

Ok, but how do I know if building a new city will require me to drop the slider before I build it?

Also, how do I know if the commerce generated by this new city will compensate for the 10% slider drop?

It's hard to tell, unless you're a micro-management freak. Basically, if you are losing money at your current tech pace, building a new city ain't gonna help with that. But if you are making a fair bit of money at your current tech pace chances are you can absorb the hit of another city.

In terms of the commerce of the city: Does it have any commerce resources (precious metals, calendar resources, furs, etc.)? If so, that will allow the city to pay for itself, build it. If not, does it have some floodplains and river grasslands with a fair bit of food? If so, that means you'll be able to grow into a lot of cottages quickly. Are you financial? That pretty much ensures you can afford to build the city. Not financial? No river? Low food? That city is going to cost you.

If you find yourself on a huge continent which you cannot quickly settle, and you want to make sure the AI doesn't start settling it (particularly relevant on smaller maps or big and small maps) a little trick I like to do is to send out settlers w/an archer or two to those spots I will want later. Keep an eye on them, and if the AI shows up, build your city. If they don't, build it when it makes sense to build it.

Sometimes rapidly filling up your continent isn't the wisest move, you need to make sure you can afford it.

Every city you build increases the power of extra trade routes.
Yep.

Every courthouse you build delays your expansion plans.
Nope.

Nothing delays your expansion plans like STRIKE ;)

I hate STRIKE!

In a SP game a while ago, I played a very aggressive Zulu -- destroyed by next door neighbor Lizzie, founded a five or so cities of my own as well as taking her two -- but I was only getting military techs, without Currency or CoL...

My military cost was going up and up... and I got myself into a situation where I had already built all the buildings I could for every city, and could only produce units -- I had to produce/disband, produce/disband and disband large parts of my troops to recover from my total economic collapse. # of cities and distance cost was something like 25 together, and my economy was only making 59 gold or so o.O. Needless to say, I learned my lesson and now watch my economic situation like a hawk during war.

Note: I was playing with Aggressive AI and Tech Trading off, and went on to lose that game to Justinian, who vassalized two others on the map and pulled of an AP Diplomatic Victory.

I hate STRIKE!

In a SP game a while ago, I played a very aggressive Zulu -- destroyed by next door neighbor Lizzie, founded a five or so cities of my own as well as taking her two -- but I was only getting military techs, without Currency or CoL...

My military cost was going up and up... and I got myself into a situation where I had already built all the buildings I could for every city, and could only produce units -- I had to produce/disband, produce/disband and disband large parts of my troops to recover from my total economic collapse. # of cities and distance cost was something like 25 together, and my economy was only making 59 gold or so o.O. Needless to say, I learned my lesson and now watch my economic situation like a hawk during war.

Note: I was playing with Aggressive AI and Tech Trading off, and went on to lose that game to Justinian, who vassalized two others on the map and pulled of an AP Diplomatic Victory.

Yeah, those Ikhandas' reduced maintenance cost give you a false sense of economic security. I've been stuck in the "nothing to produce"/losing money cycle too. The only way out of it is to work commerce tiles, delete units, and get code of laws.

I am finding that superearly wars require heavy razing of enemy cities.

Ok, but how do I know if building a new city will require me to drop the slider before I build it?

Also, how do I know if the commerce generated by this new city will compensate for the 10% slider drop?

My rule of thumb is that your nth city will increase your costs by n gold.

You can check how many :science:s you'll lose by adjusting the slider ;) .

Now look at the site you're thinking of building your city on and see what trade specials are available. Look at the trade routes in your smallest current city - your new one will not have any more than that. Total commerce = 1 + trade routes + commerce from tiles.

RJM

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion

I have a very slight re-ordering of this list, by adding an additional entry. This entry is not always available because your neighbors are sometimes pitiful wastes of computing power, but it is usually a very attractive option once you discover Construction.


Access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
Capture the Holy City of a religion that is currently spread to a large chunk of the world's population. Create the Shrine if the AI civ has neglected to do that for you.
Build cottages
Research currency for the extra trade route
Build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
Found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion