OK, my game is with Roosevelt who is spamming wonders at an insane pace. BTS, Monarch/Marathon/Huge big/little maps. I founded Judaism, my closest neighbor is Brennus who founded Buddhism or Hinduism (don't remember which) but to invade will be costly and noway my economy can support the Celtic cities yet. He is cautious because I am running OR. Ragnar is also in contact.

Here's my question, there is not a scrap or iron anywhere in my 4 city empire or anywhere I can see (I have checked Brennus yet because we only recently got open borders). There is one close island to the north I also need to explore but let's say at the moment ther eis no iron.

What are the consequences of this and how can I defend (I have copper and horses)

1) No swordsmen. Not a problem unless I need to take some cities, which is not in the plan.
2) Midevil: OK, no knights/crossbows/pikemen but I can create trebs/cats/macemen/longbows. Can I defend myself with these until gunpowder and military tradition? grenaders come quite a bit later in BTS.
3) The iron works is now only 50% production assuming I can find coal.
4) The eifel tower does not get the 100% bonus for access to iron. Any other wonders that need iron?
5) Can I build railroads? I know I need coal but I am not sure about iron.

Any other potential problems because of lack of iron. I think items 3 4 and 5 I will address by oversea colonies if need be.

Horses+copper save the day.

Horse Archers + Axemen + Spearmen + Catapults are more than sufficient in the classical age.

In the early medieval Macemen + Catapults + Longbowmen + Horse Archers should be ok to defend you empire (at least pre-engineering)

Important beeline: Gunpowder. With musketmen + trebuchets (+ drafting, if possible) you can dominate the medieval age and take any iron you need (for cannons, mostly at that point)

You should have no problem defending yourself without iron, axes/maces and longbowmen is all you need. Later on you may well be able to obtain iron from someone for 2-3 other resources. Depends on the other AIs, but usually I get at least one AI that will give me iron, though they charge a lot for it. If your map features some islands, there is also a good chance you can settle one with iron on it.

Edit: I was well and truly beaten to the post

You don't have to sit back and defend (unless you want to)

1) Lack of Swordsmen is a problem. Horse archers are useful for defending your borders but not as effective against cities, so axes may be needed. Sounds like you have left it too late for an effective rush so you may want to wait for catapults.
2) In the early stage cats and axemen should be able to take cities. Your problem will be defending (no knights to prevent pillaging) so I would go on the offensive. By the time trebs arrive it is probably too late to attack without macemen (I'm not sure you actually need iron for them though). You will get musketmen reasonably early.
3, 4 & 5) If you haven't found iron by this time then your empire is too small. I can't think of another wonder but don't have BTS. I believe you need them for railroads still (you do in Warlords).

The main thing to note is if your neighbour has iron grab it quick , if the don't then they will have exactly the same problems (another reason to grab it).

Horses+copper save the day.



Important beeline: Gunpowder. With musketmen + trebuchets (+ drafting, if possible) you can dominate the medieval age and take any iron you need (for cannons, mostly at that point)

That's what i was thinking. I am pretty ahead of brennus in tech and could have muskets before I see a celtic knight. I also have the great wall, statue of zues and a settled great spy which should get Brennus to think twice about any mischief. I was also going to try and spam jewish missionaries into his lands for recon and possible coversion.

And I forgot that cannons need iron.

Edit: I was well and truly beaten to the post

You don't have to sit back and defend (unless you want to)

1) Lack of Swordsmen is a problem. Horse archers are useful for defending your borders but not as effective against cities, so axes may be needed. Sounds like you have left it too late for an effective rush so you may want to wait for catapults.
2) In the early stage cats and axemen should be able to take cities. Your problem will be defending (no knights to prevent pillaging) so I would go on the offensive. By the time trebs arrive it is probably too late to attack without macemen (I'm not sure you actually need iron for them though). You will get musketmen reasonably early.
3, 4 & 5) If you haven't found iron by this time then your empire is too small. I can't think of another wonder but don't have BTS. I believe you need them for railroads still (you do in Warlords).

The main thing to note is if your neighbour has iron grab it quick , if the don't then they will have exactly the same problems (another reason to grab it).

Brennus is too far away to do anything about militarily. it's arround 1 AD and only now are we even somewhat close in borders, and there is a vast amount of land to the east (Brennus is to my west).

Another question, I have ALOT of mined hills, what ar ethe chances of popping iron (or anything) from a mined hill. Ar ethere any percentages listed anywhere.

Another question, I have ALOT of mined hills, what ar ethe chances of popping iron (or anything) from a mined hill. Ar ethere any percentages listed anywhere.

1/10000 per known resource per turn that the mine is worked. So in early years, when you have discovered only Iron and Bronze, it's 5/10000 (actually, a touch lower than that, because you can't discover two resources at the same time).

Disclaimer: unless they changed it in BTS.

1/10000 per known resource per turn that the mine is worked. So in early years, when you have discovered only Iron and Bronze, it's 5/10000

So the 5/10000 is from gems, silver, gold, iron and bronze?

So the 5/10000 is from gems, silver, gold, iron and bronze?

copper, yes (the tech is bronze, the resource is copper).

The chance for popping specifically iron is very close to 1/10000, or 0.01%

So the chance to pop at least one iron can be calculated by:

1 - (0.9999)^(m*t)

m: Number of Mines worked
t: Number of turns.

So if you work 10 mines for 100 turns, the chance to pop at least one iron is 9.52%.
(A more accurate calculation that provides for the chance of pre-coal resources popping first, yields 9.51%)

This is not scaled with gamespeed. So if you play marathon the chances of an iron eventually popping are quite high (over 60%, if you work 10 mines). On quick you have to be lucky, though

The chance for popping specifically iron is very close to 1/10000, or 0.01%

So the chance to pop at least one iron can be calculated by:

1 - (0.9999)^(m*t)

m: Number of Mines worked
t: Number of turns.

So if you work 10 mines for 100 turns, the chance to pop at least one iron is 9.52%.
(A more accurate calculation that provides for the chance of pre-coal resources popping first, yields 9.51%)

This is not scaled with gamespeed. So if you play marathon the chances of an iron eventually popping are quite high (over 60%, if you work 10 mines). On quick you have to be lucky, though


Hmmm. I am at marathon speed and have about 10 mines already so I have a greater than 60% chance of popping iron by the time I get to Steel for the iron works which I really by biggest concern.

Hmmm. I am at marathon speed and have about 10 mines already so I have a greater than 60% chance of popping iron by the time I get to Steel for the iron works which I really by biggest concern.

(In case no one has noticed a made an exact calculation on this in another thread ;))

(In case no one has noticed a made an exact calculation on this in another thread ;))

I saw, I just noticed the 60% chance which a simple number compared to probablility curves.

To make a quick jog back to the thread topic... :)

What are the consequences of this and how can I defend (I have copper and horses)

Do you have any ivory? Stacks of elephants and axes will defend for rather a while. And you'll get Construction way way before Gunpowder.

One thing that you might miss after you think you aren't going to have any more problems, you can't build frigates or cannons. Once I get to the gunpowder units I tend to forget that anything still needs iron. I usually remember cannons need iron, but I have definitely been shocked that I couldn't build frigates.

Well, I found iron last night in one of the few dark unexplored areas of my continent. Was actually a good locationwith 2 food sources, fresh water, plenty of grasslands for cottaging. I am glad I found it. No frigates would have been definitely the biggest problem, as I was on a smaller continent with a friendly Brennus and would need a large fleet to defent the shores. Thanks for all the advice.

I've actually just started a game like this. The nearest thing to strategic resources I have inside my culture boundaries are elephants, horses, and stone, and as I'm just using chariots and archers now I'm finding the incoming barbarian swordsmen really annoying.

I really dunno what to do until I get construction for the elephants. I'm trying for a peaceful game, so I'm trying to culture out an iron resource that's one into a small rival civ's boundaries.

But hey, I've promised myself I'm going to stick with more disasters longer to see what I can do! :crazyeye:

I'm not the best Civ player (by far), but lack of iron is usually the leading reason why I lose. Without pikes or elephants, it is difficult and costly to stop knights from pillaging. It also means you can forget about using any sea-based food tiles while you're at war (until Combustion).

I build a stack of siege + longbows and pray I can quickly take iron from a nearby neighbor. If that doesn't work, I'm usually toast.

hmm .. having no iron would certainly suck but if you have ivory, you can still launch an attack even in the medieval age with war elephants. I tend to have more problems with no horses, however. My recent game with Darius I where I planned an immortal rush went crappy because of no horses. My closest neighbour was Monty with a huge army (~mine :lol:) even early on (aggressive AI) and he had the only source of horses in his capital's fat cross.

My general reaction to "no iron" is to work on diplomatic measures with my neighbors and try to beeline other non-iron techs for my military. Longbows, in particular, are very handy for defense and help raise your power rating to scare off the AI.

"No iron" is a bit of a game-ender, though, if you're Rome and were looking forward to a little classical conquest. I haven't done it personally, but I have no problem with entering the world-builder and inserting an iron resource in there to keep the game going.

My current game (Emperor/Big and Small/Standard size and default settings/Normal speed), I hogged half of the continent's copper, but I had no iron. I attacked a neighbor hoping to find iron in his territory. He fled across a channel and we made peace.. but no iron was to be found! Izzy DoW on me and my axes and newly-built cats kill her crap, but I need crossbows against her next wave. I make peace with her ASAP and then trade something like 6 resources (copper, gold, rice, cows, crabs, etc.) AND 4 gpt to Korea just for one lousy iron.

Much later on Khmer (which spread to other islands off the mainland) offered to vassalize, and I said yes because their culture was really hurting me badly at that point, and I needed breathing space. I cancel iron with Korea and get a MUCH better deal with my vassals who had found iron in some godforsaken tundra: I traded them some spare horses and pigs for Iron.

Well Dang. Now I find there is no coal or uranium on this cursed continent. And one lousy oil reserve that I have fought 2 wars to keep and may lose it to culture from another.

So 2 questions.

What do I miss with coal? Railroads, 50% ironworks yields, coal plants? I can probably get teh 3 gorges dam in teh capital but that takes forever to build plus getting to plastics.

Oil. The standard ethanol corp can use rice which I have plenty of. Providing my rice is not pilaged (9 farms) I have a non-plunderable oil resource, correct???

Well Dang. Now I find there is no coal or uranium on this cursed continent. And one lousy oil reserve that I have fought 2 wars to keep and may lose it to culture from another.

So 2 questions.

What do I miss with coal? Railroads, 50% ironworks yields, coal plants? I can probably get teh 3 gorges dam in teh capital but that takes forever to build plus getting to plastics.

Oil. The standard ethanol corp can use rice which I have plenty of. Providing my rice is not pilaged (9 farms) I have a non-plunderable oil resource, correct???

Yes but you need to spread it to all cities that will be making units/buildings that require oil.

By the way, you have nothing to complain about my friend. Rails require coal OR oil. Oil is WAY better than coal. I had neither, until coal randomly popped into one of my mines.

Without coal you sacrifice some production from Ironworks, but you seem to have rivers.. I have ZERO rivers in my side of the continent. NONE. ZIP. No 3GD for me. Or watermills or anything else like that. I do have aluminum apparently but that's all. I think I'll have to go Space Race if I can't culturally annex some oil, and that process is taking forever even with Hermitage and other crap in my capital.

Thanks axident! So I need only oil for railroads, but need coal for coal plants, until I get the dam built. With the dam and oil the only problem with no coal is the 50% loss in production of the ironworks, not that much of a problem considering the production in that city already. Also I can more freely build industrial parks since I will not get the +2 unhealthiness penalty, which increases production that way.

My other choices are to build standard oil and spread it to all cities, then trade my oilwell oil to an AI for coal or uranium. This should be legit? But standard oil competes with sids sushi s I cannot build both in the same city, or can I. Will Sids work with only seafood while standard oil works with rice in the same city???? My guess is no.

A final plan is I should be able to build all the happiness wonders (Broadway is almost built (16 turns on Marathon in Washington with no factory yet) and I see no problems with getting the other 2 as noone else has electricity yet. I may be able to trade the three happiness techs to an AI for coal.

You can get oil from Standard Ethanol to build units, but it doesn't help with building railroads. If you have the corp in a city you can build ships or tanks, but there isn't really a city supply concept for worker improvements. So if you have oil at the moment I would get to building railroads.

So I can use the standard ehtanol for tanks/planes and ships but not trains? That doesn't seams right somehow. I guess if I go the standard ethanol route and trade the welled oil I need the railroads built first.

The game not finished yet but i think the issues addressed here are cleared up.

Got industrialization and of course no aluminum in my empire (no coal so forget the corp to get it)But it is in my friendly neighbor Brennus' land, right on the border (Closest to Washington). I figure I should build a citynear the border, get Sid's Suchi there (producing about 25 culture) and temporarliy switch to free speech until I claim the aluminum.

Regarding Oil. I built a well on my lone oil reserve and thank's to Sid's suchi there is not chance creative Gilgamesh will be able to get to it via culture. I also have a bunch of tanks sitting on it to prevent any mischeviousness from an AI. I was able to build all the railroads I needed, and built alot of tanks and battleships (currently doing so still).. I also tried to built a Coal plant in one city to see perhaps oil would allow power, but it didn't.

Coal. This has turned out to be a blessing. Every major city now has an industrial park, factory, and forge without any being unhealthy. I have not even had to build many Malls (only for the gold and happiness) and only 1 hospital (because washington had nothing else to do for 4 turns). That is potentially +6 unhealthiness avoided, making a switch to environmentalism unccessary. Speaking of which Washington has no real loss in iron works potential because of no coal, still gets 50% bonus from iron and I am running beuracracy. Right now I am building the Cristo redentor wonder in 13 turns (marathon speed) during a golden age, and Rock N Roll would take 10 turns. I am teching plastics and should be able to get the 3 gorges dam built quickly (I build a hydro plant in Washington first for extra power) once I finish teching plastics.

Coal? Bah, who needs it. I think in the future if I have hydro power I going to build windmills on my coal mines, the unhealthiness penanlties are a killer.

You could mine the coal, work on railroads and such, build a coal plant where you want to build the 3 gorges dam. Then when all of that was done you could windmill the coal.