Hey Fellow Civers,

I'm a long time player, first-time poster. I was just wondering what leader/civ combos people have been having fun with. Here are my favorites.

Lincoln of Egypt- The Phi/Chm trait makes Stonehenge very powerful, and of course War Chariots are awesome. I've tried it a couple times in Immortal with good results on a crowded map. I've been able to wipe out neighboring AI early on, using the specialists gold to support my army... but when all is said and done, i'm behind in the tech race and can't pull out the win.

Willhem of Oranje of the Ottomans- As far as i'm concerned, Willhem has the best traits in the game. Cre makes grabbing land easy, and the cheap Libraries/Financial trait makes for fast teching. The Hamman gives you the ability to skip monarchy providing you have religion, so you can shoot straight for Gunpowder. In an Emporer game, I had Janissary before my neighbors had longbows!

I think it was a great idea to include the Unrestricted Leaders, it's very entertaining!

Obviously Boudicca of the Romans stands out.... but Darius of the HRE, Churchill of the Native Americans and - my favourite for higher levels Mehmed of the Byzantines (endless happy (UB) and health (trait) for huge cities and a great UU)

Clearly Boudicca of the Romans has to win out....I won so bad with this it wasnt even really fun.

Roosevelt of the Germans is an unbeatable combo...if you are a builder.

I kinda like Darius of the Zulu. Fin/Org is overpowered already, add in -20% maintenance from the Ikalanda, and you got a strong early econ. Of course with the impi, you're in for some early conquests, and the forementioned is a strong way to keep your econ up and running when you suddenly find yourself with 6 cites pre-courthouse.

Also, Toku of the Native Americans seems pretty popular in MP.

Boudicca of the Romans is indeed :eek:
Not even fun to play like that unless you play with agg. AI on + 2 levels more than you normally play!

Boudicca of the HRE.

Invade and build Rathaus's! Rinse and repeat

Clearly Boudicca of the Romans has to win out....I won so bad with this it wasnt even really fun.

Any games with the Romans are not really fun for me.... :lol:

Darius of Perisa............hang on :mischief:

Hi

Yeah BootyCall and her char/agg combo with the Romans where the first thing I thought of when I first heard of the unrestricted leaders option too. I tend to pick her when I want to try any Civ with a strong early melee UU like Greeks or Summeria. Not only does she make good leader for waring but playing her means zero chance of having her sticking her implants in your face every few turns on the diplo screen :P

Alex also seems good for the Romans agressive for the prats and philosophical to synergize with the UB. Actually anyone who wants to try and make lots of GP farms should try a Philosophical leader with their fave second trait. Not only will they get gp boost from forums but Prats are so strong that even without agressive they tuff enough to still be a force.

Tokie is also a nice leader for purely fun. Pick a civ with your fave gunpowder unit and then make Musketeers, Redcoats or Seals or whatever that have drill1 combat 1 and city garrison 1 right out the box. I tried him with Americans and with the advisors and westpoint and stuf I had one city making Seals with Combat 1 Combat 2, City Garison 1, Drill1-4, and Medic 1 plus their built in March and Amphib. It was silly but it was fun hehe :)

I havent played around with Brenny much lately. That is one thing that surprized me. It seems lots of people HATE the celtic UB and UU but would still play Celts because they said Brenny has a great trait combo. I figured there would be TONS of people going off playing him with a civ that have UU and UB they actually LIKE too but I havent noticed that much excitement bout it :/.

Unrestricted leaders with the AI can be fun too. Thinking of first time I saw Gandhi Leader of the Mongol Horde still make me giggle hehe. Or Monty King of Rome thinking YIKES and writing down "kill that whacko before he gets prats" on my to do list.

Unresticted leaders can also make random games more interesting. You can pick a leader you like but still keep the civ part at random or vice versa or just leave both at random for tons of differnt combos from interesting to just silly.

I really like unrestricted leaders LOTS :)

Kaytie

I'm suprised to see that most of the favorites have to with Aggressivness rather than economy. Darius of the Zulu is intriguing, and so is Mehmed of the Byzantines. I think these must be the players who dabble in the Emporer and Immortal levels. I don't consider myself an Immortal yet, because I haven't beat it on random, with default settings. So I tried to find an unrestricted Leader combo that would help me win for fun, but I really don't think I could do it with Tokugawa of Native America or "Booty Call" ;) of Greece. I find the AI produces so many units you need a huge army which is very hard to finance. I will try Boudylicious of The Romans however, as you won't need as many Praetorians. I'll have to get lucky and be next to the civ that builds the Pyramids though :rolleyes: .

Thanks for the feedback Civvers!

I think DeGaulle of India would be fun. . . 'builder-licious'

I really want to try Victoria of the Dutch on island or archipelago map. The East Indiaman is as British as it is Dutch. So it isn't a strange combination.

I play with Lincoln with both Egypt and Eithiopia and find him a clearly dominating ruler in those cases without having many wars. He combines to make tons of Great Prophets with Egypt, and Eithiopia gives him an easy cultural victory with the +25% culture bonus from the Stela.

Gandhi of the Romans I found fun for peaceful purposes (yes using the Romans and not for the Prats) the forum combined with a Philisophical leader is a powerful combo.

I'll have to remember the BootyCall nickname. I've just been calling her Brokedica (esp. Brokedica of the Exploitoreans) all this time.

Anyhow, of the fair combos, I really like Huanya Capac of Russia. Dutch Ragnar is a little less fair, but still one of my favorites.

I've done Hyuna Capac of Mali, DeGaulle, and Qin (Chinese leader) of Mali.

I think I like DeGaulle the best (for charismatic/industrial) and Mali are great with the +10% gold forges. Plus their UU is stronger defensively than macemen and possibly swordsmen.

Next game I'm trying DeGaulle of the Dutch.

I've only played one unrestricted leaders game, Victoria (Imp/Fin) of Mali (Skirmisher/Mint/Wheel/Mining). Skirmisher-rushed the next civ over, spread settlers everywhere, made a lot of money which let me stay ahead in tech, and eventually got a Domination victory IIRC. A powerful combo IMO.

Funny thing, Huanya Capac. He's awesome, the Inca just suck... (Unless you do Quecha rush, which is a whole different story, but I don't like that very much...) So Huanya's a dream for Unrestricted Leaders.

Unfortunately, the computer comes up with silly combinations...

Gandhi of the HRE, or Gandhi of Byzantium. :)

question: when you play with unrestricted leaders, doesn't that mean your opponents are also unrestricted combos? so couldn't you have combos that you are playing against that would be powerful and make it more challenging? I haven't tried this mode yet. I was considering a succession game with this feature.

Clearly Boudicca of the Romans has to win out....I won so bad with this it wasnt even really fun.

But she would not approve of this combo...

She'd probably kill herself.

I'm a builder, and let me tell you, Willem or Elizabeth of the Ethopians are both absolutely redonkulous. In normal play, Zara Yaqob manages to be a cultural-victory force despite not having Philosophical, Spiritual OR Financial, and it's all because of Steles - give Steles to a serious builder and, well. Very, very fast cultural victories.

question: when you play with unrestricted leaders, doesn't that mean your opponents are also unrestricted combos? so couldn't you have combos that you are playing against that would be powerful and make it more challenging? I haven't tried this mode yet. I was considering a succession game with this feature.

This is correct and makes for some interesting gameplay. I do like it, but I have had instances where I thought I was declaring war on Mehmed II to realize I actually declared war on Napoleon (Napoleon of Ottomans - color is civ based, not leader based)

Boudica of the Romans being probably the most overpowered combo is truly one of the best ironies I can think of. I don't think She'd aprove, but I like it.

She'd probably kill herself.

She'd smother herself in her own boobs.



But, yeah, the AI gets to do random stuff, too. Unrestricted Leaders, Random AI Personalities makes for a lot of fun. You can't predict anything. If you're playing a combo that is legitimately non-broken (ie: Wang Kon of Holy Roman Empire because you want to play as Switzerland and there isn't a setting to do that for real) then I kind of recommend setting up your opponents in advance as "regular" civs. You have to remember to set up the leader and their civ in advance, so it takes a few minutes and you want to ensure an even distribution of war/peace-mongers for a balanced game, but it makes for some fun.

But, yeah, the AI gets to do random stuff, too. Unrestricted Leaders, Random AI Personalities makes for a lot of fun. You can't predict anything.

:lol:

"Welcome. I am Gandhi of the Aztecs. I hate you!"

Clearly Boudicca of the Romans has to win out....I won so bad with this it wasnt even really fun.

Yeah obviously a powerful combo. Played a few games already and Im definately an early invader/warmonger. Favorite combo on emperor or above is cyrus (imp/char) and romans. Obviously charismatic is underrated. very powerful early game with happiness and stone henge. Can keep a war going a while. PLus its harder to get Great generals in bts. Great generals are worth like 5 great people when u got charismatic trait. U play epic game with romans, get that build 12 swordsman quest and promote them all to combat I/cityraider I and got to war continuously and u will have 6 great generals by the time u reach the renaissance (put them all as warlords). Cant be beat.

Im surprised no one mentionned Shaka of the Native americans... its almost like cheating :lol:

Start on a plain hill, exploit nearest 2 or 3 shield tile and produce a worker to make a mine and exploit it. Research to bronzeworking, when worker come out then have worker chop forest. Spam dog warriors all over :hammer: and squat on all military ressources...

:lol:

"Welcome. I am Gandhi of the Aztecs. I hate you!"

You laugh, but you've never been backstabbed on Pleased by Mongol Gandhi =(

:lol: Yeah, it just goes to show that you can't take anything for granted in Unrestricted/Random games. Mongol Ghandi had Catherine's personality. I figured I was safe. Oops. :lol:

Cyrus of the Byzantines. Once you upgrade your highly promoted (from Chm and lots of great generals) horse archers to Cataphracts, youre unstoppable. (cataphracts with 50% strength have over 90% chance to beat a fortified longbowman in a 50% cultural defense city). When the game was over i had a level 25 Gunship with all possible promotions :lol:

Funny thing, Huanya Capac. He's awesome, the Inca just suck... (Unless you do Quecha rush, which is a whole different story, but I don't like that very much...) So Huanya's a dream for Unrestricted Leaders.

Unfortunately, the computer comes up with silly combinations...

Inca suck? The UB rocks my socks off too, and even if you don't Quecha rush they can let you play peacefully building pyramids or whatnot by holding off barbs until barbs have axes, and on a crowded map that wont happen. The UB is great if you don't get a relgion/stonehenge early. I usually try to whip a granery early in every city to allow me to whip more, so the UB basicly gives the Inca the benefits of being Creative too. The other wonderful benefit of the Quecha is that it starts with Combat 1, so you can build a bunch of them super cheap and upgrade them to macemen later with the same free promotion an aggressive leader would get. Free promotions are sweet cause it's only 2 XP to the 2nd one, and 5 to the 3rd, but you know that already...

Personally I think Inca is so good it's unbalanced, factoring in the ability to Quecha rush of course. The only way I've ever won on Diety is starting with 2 capitals thanks to Quecha rush...

Im surprised no one mentionned Shaka of the Native americans... its almost like cheating :lol:

Start on a plain hill, exploit nearest 2 or 3 shield tile and produce a worker to make a mine and exploit it. Research to bronzeworking, when worker come out then have worker chop forest. Spam dog warriors all over :hammer: and squat on all military ressources...

ever seen a dog warrior fight a chariot?

ever seen a dog warrior fight a chariot?

Still have good odds if your on the offense. Chariots only get the bonus when attacking.

Playing unrestricted leaders, random personalities with everything that can possibly be randomised randomised certainly makes for a challenging game

This seems like a nifty little set-up for future games. I'll keep it in mind! :cool:

Joao of Ethiopia with stonehenge.

Also i find Boudica of the Greeks better then of the romans for multiplayer as you don't need iron and youi get to pump out those phalanxes faster and earilier.

Holy Roman Mehmed...
You pay no maintenance:D

Also i find Boudica of the Greeks better then of the romans for multiplayer as you don't need iron and youi get to pump out those phalanxes faster and earilier.

If she were Boudica of the Mayans, she wouldnt need copper or iron at all. :)

but are holkans as strong as preats or phalanx? or as destructive?

Point taken. If you want early rushes, then thats your combination. But, Roman Boudica or Greek Boudica seem to be your best bet.

and another reason why i use greek boudica over roman boudica is because most multiplayer games ban boudica of rome. :sad:

That's a tad harsh, eh? They shouldn't ban Boudica of Rome, they need to find a combination as strong or possibly even stronger. Axe-rushing isn't everything!

well particularly in teamer games on multiplayer they do. Why? they don't want an 8 Str. huge HP block of steel coming there way.

Well... neither would I. Point taken. :)

fave combos include:
curchill + native americans, for instant drill 3/4 crossbows
any ORG leader + HRE, for little or no upkeep thanks to the UB
Darius + any civ, let's face it, Darius is the man:goodjob:

Boudica of the Zulu, -20% Maintanence early game makes up a bit for her weak economy, plus -70% maintenence with Code of Laws is almost as good as Holy Roman Empire. Zulu UB by far beats HR UB because its only 5% weaker and can be built right off the bat.

Darius of the Persians. Immortals completely dominate the AI for massive early conquest, which you can actually support with cottages and low maintenance costs. Once you get some decent land area, there is no way anyway can keep up with your tech power.

Ragnar of the Carthagians is something i need to try.

Aggressive is one of my favourite traits, Financial needs no discussion, and Cothon is my Favourite UB so far.
Financial Civ with +1 Trade route ftw (ok, Hannibal has that too), but the keypoint here is Aggressive to deliver some beatings.

Ragnar of the Carthagians is something i need to try.

Aggressive is one of my favourite traits, Financial needs no discussion, and Cothon is my Favourite UB so far.
Financial Civ with +1 Trade route ftw (ok, Hannibal has that too), but the keypoint here is Aggressive to deliver some beatings.

Not that Hannibal's Charismatic is that much worse at helping with the beatings, especially since it benefits Carthage's UU too. ;)

Darius of the HRE = cheat
Pericles of Arabia = science and culture
Boudica of Summeria = the fastest domination victory ever seen. Lots of powerfull vultures plus very early courthouses ( ziggurats )
Huyana Capac of the dutch at archipelago map = cheat. Industrial = cheap forges plus 50 % wonder production [plus copper] = colossus. Colossus + financial + dike = good in everything.

You would have to win before modern to use the Hyuana Capac of the dutch combo to it's full potential. When you have to research astronomy your economy's gonna take a massive blow.

Right now I'm having fun with Ramesses of the Chinese. Nothing particularly spectacular strategy wise, but I love having Spiritual, Industrious and Cho Ko Nus.

Just played a game as Pericles of the Ethiopians, great for a culture victory, with the Stele's +25% culture and the phi/cre traits of pericles work well.

Boudica of the Romans sounds OP.....

"Boudica of Rome"...thats not even funny

I agree about Darius of the HRE. It's the closest you can get to REX ala Civ 3. Overpowered UB+Fin+Org. The UB is half cost to boot. Rails in 300 turns on the lower levels at Marathon speed

If she were Boudica of the Mayans, she wouldnt need copper or iron at all. :)

and another reason why i use greek boudica over roman boudica is because most multiplayer games ban boudica of rome. :sad:

I guess if this thread is devolving into a "Booty+?" one, it would be worth pointing out the med III + woodsman III gambit shown on other threads:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237733

The conclusion being that booty + aztecs will give you a 40% healer with one GG on a jag, which is pretty sweet. And yeah, jags are much better at rushing and choking resources (if there's still woods left) than holkians.

But I think any of these financial combos are going to beat any of these booty combos, assuming they don't get killed pre-medieval.

H'okay so...I was bored one day and I went through and checked out the leader/civ mixes and tried to come up with some combos that deal with their traits and the special buildings. What I would like is if some of you could test out these combos and see how they match up. As of now my favorite is Washington of Ottomans:) .

Leader-Civ
Japan-Celtia
Dutch-China, Byzantine
Carthage-Greece, Maya
Portugal-Inca
Celtia-India
Bismarck-Mali
Washington-Ottomans
Maya-Persia, Babylonia
Victoria-Rome
Korea-Spain
Sumeria-Native America

If I did units, I think a nice combo would be Pacal II of India, b/c the expansive pumps out fast workers who can build cottages to bring up the economy.

In advance for the people who try this out, thanks a bunch!:goodjob:

In my opinion Napoleon of Rome is better than Boudica of Rome. Agg and Cha is overkill on Praets, they rock the world anyway. Organized to instant whip courthouses everywhere and keep the war going is much more important. I got my first 200000+ score domination win with this combo at emperor. It's insane, trust me :p

I'm playing now as Darius of the Byzantine. Never had to lower my tech rate from 80% throughput the whole game on Noble vs 14 AI

The saddest thing about unrestricted games is when you run into Monty of Germany or America. Because you know that he's never going to get anywhere near his UU or UB. It's a good thing he's such a jerk, or else it might be really poignant.

Boudica of Romans.

How about Hammurabi of the Romans? Aggressive + Praetorians for massive conquest, Organized to keep the conquest going....

Elizabeth of Ethiopia with Stonehenge...

Roosevelt of the Holy Roman Empire, maximising all per-city bonuses to have your economy go absolutely bonkers (Trade routes, religious wonders, possibly mercantilism and later corporations).
We'd build a city on every square of the planet if we could.

question: when you play with unrestricted leaders, doesn't that mean your opponents are also unrestricted combos? so couldn't you have combos that you are playing against that would be powerful and make it more challenging? I haven't tried this mode yet. I was considering a succession game with this feature.

When you pick your country and leader you can also pick the computers country and leader as well. What you leave random will be random.

Elizabeth of anyone. Seriously, she is one of the best leaders for any sort of game. As Rome, she's unstoppable.


On the AI side of things, seeing Monty with Praets is scary.

question: when you play with unrestricted leaders, doesn't that mean your opponents are also unrestricted combos? so couldn't you have combos that you are playing against that would be powerful and make it more challenging? I haven't tried this mode yet. I was considering a succession game with this feature.


Not really. It's not that combos are inherently strong, just that some stack really well together (Darius of HRE, Elizabeth of Rome). So, if you play one of those, you're effectively giving yourself the benefit of a really good combo, and leaving the strength of the AI combos to chance. The AIs that get a crappy leader with a mediocre civ are essentially condemned to death.

Not really. It's not that combos are inherently strong, just that some stack really well together (Darius of HRE, Elizabeth of Rome). So, if you play one of those, you're effectively giving yourself the benefit of a really good combo, and leaving the strength of the AI combos to chance. The AIs that get a crappy leader with a mediocre civ are essentially condemned to death.

You are only giveing the AI to chance if you leave it on random. You can pick and choose who you want to face.

i like to play churchill of france

Playing unrestricted leaders, random personalities with everything that can possibly be randomised randomised certainly makes for a challenging game

Don't forget the choose religons.BTW, I don't like france that much .

I thoroughly enjoyed Elizabeth of Portugal on a Terra map.

Her trait combination helped to power enough of a tech lead to really exploit the Carracks and lay claim to the new world. The Feitoria in conjunction with the Financial trait helped me maintain the empire overseas without having to liberate. I won a space race but was right up against the domination cap. In fact I when I went to war -- with Bismarck of Babylon and Hannibal of Rome at the request of delighted neighbor Zara Yaqob of America -- I gifted every city I captured to Zara so I'd stay under the cap.

Darius of Perisa............hang on :mischief:

You know, that isn't even all that far from the truth.. His trait combos are incredible, his UB basically gives him budget expansive on the side, effectively dealing with one of BTS's biggest and hardest to mitigate problems, and his UU is possibly the best rush unit in the game. He gets an A+ for traits, A+ for UU, A for UB. He's not nearly as one dimensional as most of the combos I'm seeing put forth - he's great at everything.

The Holkan, Impi, Dog Soldier and Quecha are all better than the Immortal for early rushes, and the War Chariot is its equal. Sure, the Immotal is good, but IMO you are over-rating it. And there are definately better UBs going around, including the Sacrificial Altar, Terrace, Forum, Ikhanda and Ball Court just to name a few.

Huayna Capac of Inca is a similarly good combination. Two powerful Builder traits, the fastest rush ever and a very very useful Unique Building (conquered cities produce their own culture, regardless of religions).
Both are excellent for an early rush followed by a mostly peaceful game; Huayna gets going quickly but Darius has more staying power.

Most posted here are indeed more powerful than either BECAUSE they are unidimensional. While Darius and HC of their native empire are strongly all around, they don't have 'tech to x, build y, break the game' written all over them like a Boudica of Rome or Org/x of Holy Rome.

The Holkan, Impi, Dog Soldier and Quecha are all better than the Immortal for early rushes, and the War Chariot is its equal. Sure, the Immotal is good, but IMO you are over-rating it. And there are definately better UBs going around, including the Sacrificial Altar, Terrace, Forum, Ikhanda and Ball Court just to name a few.

Better for super early rushes on maps small enough that the distance won't be prohibitive to slower moving units. The Immortal works equally well on tiny maps as it does on huge maps, able to do long distance rushes, reinforcing a moving rush force, easily. To boot, the unit is a defender that is basically impervious to archers and axemen - and defenders with two movement, that are dirt cheap to make, and have low tech requirements. They last longer than most of the units you named, are effective as defenders against two of the primary units of the era, and are suited to work well on a variety of map types that many of the units you mentioned aren't (IE - big roomy ones, as well as the ones with limited travel time). Yes, a quecha rush is a bit faster, but there will be a half a dozen scenarios where it would be ineffective that an Immortal rush would excel in... And the Immortal will be around a lot longer to boot. The Immortal is a much more well rounded unit than most of the ones you mentioned, and is still one of the best rushers in the game... As for war chariots - I love 'em, Ramses is my favorite guy, but... They can't defend worth beans. Immortals can. I'd give the edge to Immortals for how good they are.

As for UBs... Shaka needs the Ikhanda because his economy sucks - Darius doesn't. That's the best of the UBs you mentioned. Forum, sacrificial altar, terrace... All quite situational. As it happens, the apothecary is situational too - that situation being that you have health problems. Well, health is one of the hardest things to control in BTS, and it is one of Darius's only weak points - and go figure, his UB has that covered. His UB wouldn't be great for Mehmed, but it is *spectacular* for a guy who doesn't need an economic boost from his UB and is obviously suited to having a break-neck economy. That is Darius. His UBs isn't one of the best in the game in general, but it is one of the best for him.

Darius is a complete package that could arguably rival any unrestricted combo you can name, and I will argue the point... When I have time ;)

Most posted here are indeed more powerful than either BECAUSE they are unidimensional. While Darius and HC of their native empire are strongly all around, they don't have 'tech to x, build y, break the game' written all over them like a Boudica of Rome or Org/x of Holy Rome.

Darius does have a total one dimensional aspect to him though... His economy is the strongest in the game, bar none. He can expand more, faster, support larger armies, crank more tech, than anyone out there. Anyone. Giving him a Rathaus is hardly necessary - just playing regular Darius is already a notable improvement over even other financial civs. Playing among human players, if you leave Darius to expand and build, you will regret it later, because he is better at it than whoever you're playing - probably by a fair margin. He is to economic matters what Boadacia of the Romans is to early war...

And it just so happens, he's a very effective rusher to boot. The organized financial combo with a health bonus from his UB make him insane enough as a builder - being an amazing rusher is just icing. There's a reason why one of the things I repeatedly hear on this forum is that playing Darius is like going down a difficulty level... Because it really, really is.

Also, being one dimensional and just cramming that one strong point down peoples' throats is all good and fine... Boudica of the Romans without iron? On an island? Who cares. Darius beside you? Beware the rush. Darius on an Island? Beware his building power. He's good in just about any situation you can name. Take horses away, he's still an incredible builder. Cram him in a corner, and you'd best cross your fingers that he doesn't have horses. A breakneck economy, which is his specialty, allows for larger armies, more espionage, faster expansion, faster teching, whatever. The guy really does have it all.

I think you're exaggerating his awesomeness a little. He recovers from the stress on the economy quickly, but the process itself is slower than with some others (Catherine, probably Joao).
I do agree that he's wonderfully adaptable though - got the space? Expand and get back on your feet quickly. Crowded in by multiple AIs? Go kill someone.

Also, his economy is the best without question only if others don't leverage their traits. Spiritual can save a fortune by running the most efficient civics at all times and not wasting turns in Anarchy. The value of Industrial is somewhat difficult to assess (decent if you can collect wonders without breaking a sweat. Awesome if it's the thing that enables you to spam wonders without neglecting other things. Useless if even with IND you don't build wonders beyond the bare essentials). PHI can also be a powerful and flexible economic trait, although it has the disadvantage of becoming worse in the late game rather than better.

I rate Darius among the top 5, no question, and I suppose most people will do: He can build with the best of them, rush with the best of them, and it almost requires conscious effort to throw away his advantages.
Gandhi is also on my top 5 list, but I wouldn't be surprised if others found him totally unappealing... I can't imagine that with Darius.

It's all my theory, but well, it's a fun thread for fantasies.

Gilgamesh of Native America - uberdefender. Creative gives valuable % of defense, and Protective gets its archers. Totem pole + protective + superfast 40% culture bonus = omnipotence. Until the catapults, anyway.

Huayna Capac of Rome - economy at home, praet outside.

Suleiman of Rome - interesting. You build Pyramids, get Representation, war and spam Forums. (lol, it sounds too funny :D) Settle all the generals and use your specialists. Boom - specialist economy to the boot.

Washington of Persia - health is not an issue now, which pairs with big happiness. And UU is powerful.

Washington of Ottomans/Babylonians - similar, but you trade health for happy in hammam/garden.

Cyrus of Mongolia - Ger + barracks is just a step from uber-horses and phants. Get some settled GG's early and you are stomping hard on these puny ancient infantries.

Zara Yaqob of China - you can expand with Cho-Ko-Nus and maintain it with Organized. Creative helps to get Pavilions. Not groundbreakingly powerful, but nice.

Gandhi of Arabia - you get Madrassa, which effectively allows you to get 4 profitable specialists. It's just like good ol' Saladin.

Better for super early rushes on maps small enough that the distance won't be prohibitive to slower moving units.The Immortal works equally well on tiny maps as it does on huge maps, able to do long distance rushes, reinforcing a moving rush force, easily. To boot, the unit is a defender that is basically impervious to archers and axemen - and defenders with two movement, that are dirt cheap to make, and have low tech requirements. They last longer than most of the units you named, are effective as defenders against two of the primary units of the era, and are suited to work well on a variety of map types that many of the units you mentioned aren't (IE - big roomy ones, as well as the ones with limited travel time).

FWIW, the big roomier maps are more important for resourceless units because you are much less able to rely on various resources being around.

Yes, a quecha rush is a bit faster, but there will be a half a dozen scenarios where it would be ineffective that an Immortal rush would excel in... And the Immortal will be around a lot longer to boot. The Immortal is a much more well rounded unit than most of the ones you mentioned, and is still one of the best rushers in the game... As for war chariots - I love 'em, Ramses is my favorite guy, but... They can't defend worth beans. Immortals can. I'd give the edge to Immortals for how good they are.

A quecha rush can cripple every surrounding civ simply by building quechas from turn 1, resulting in multiple capitals and 3 times the space to expand into than your rivals. Dog soldiers and Holkans can both also steal a city much quicker 9/10 because you don't have to connect a resource to attack which means the next war can start earlier. The Impi is faster than the Immortal, is only weak to axes, and can get CRI CRII and CRIII.

As for UBs... Shaka needs the Ikhanda because his economy sucks - Darius doesn't. However, the Ikhanda gives Shaka both a barracks and a mini-courthouse in one super-paced building.

That's the best of the UBs you mentioned. Forum, sacrificial altar, terrace... All quite situational. As it happens, the apothecary is situational too - that situation being that you have health problems. Well, health is one of the hardest things to control in BTS, and it is one of Darius's only weak points - and go figure, his UB has that covered. His UB wouldn't be great for Mehmed, but it is *spectacular* for a guy who doesn't need an economic boost from his UB and is obviously suited to having a break-neck economy. That is Darius. His UBs isn't one of the best in the game in general, but it is one of the best for him.

All those buildings effectively add an extra trait to the Civ, similar to the Apothecary.However they either add a better trait (Forum), improve a "every city" building (Terrace) or increase the power of a highly used and abused civic (Sacrificial Altar). Apothecary just doesn't do it for me, personally.

Darius is a complete package that could arguably rival any unrestricted combo you can name, and I will argue the point... When I have time ;)

Huayna of Rome is a more complete package IMO.

Yes unrestricted leaders allows everyone to mix and match. I like any organized leader with the HRE. Ratheus is awesome.

I like Ragnar when I'm planning on fighting, and Elizabeth when I'm planning on doing a space race win. Favorite civ recently has been england for their awesome UU and pretty good UB. HRE is another favorite, though they have the absolute worst beginning techs. At least the starting scout increases the chances you'll get a tech from a goodie hut. . their UU really isn't anything special, i still prefer crossbows for my melee stack protectors.
I also like mali with wang kong. skirmisher rushes can be pretty effective, and protective skirmishers make it easy to defend in the early age. I rarely go on the offensive until I get rifles.

Liz of the Dutch on archapelago.

Build the great lighthouse, spam island cities and make nice with the AI til the dike. If you get to steam power there isnt really any point playing on.

I am currently enjoying Izzy of the HRE. I am using Spirutality and christianity to spread like herpes in a community college dorm! I have the Pyramids and Shengdon Papaya and I switch my civs to whatever I want. I am cranking out pikemen and musketmen in 1100AD, and I have Suvivorman of Germany doing my dirty work!

Currently playing With Napoleon as India and thats insane ... Fast Workers is imo one of the bests UU's there is ... simply because they are usefull from 4000 BC to 2050 AD ... Charismatic keeps the steam up if you want to war and Orgenized keeps the builder steam up early game where your Fast Workers gets the cities up to a good pace fast enough ...

Currently playing With Napoleon as India and thats insane ... Fast Workers is imo one of the bests UU's there is ... simply because they are usefull from 4000 BC to 2050 AD ... Charismatic keeps the steam up if you want to war and Orgenized keeps the builder steam up early game where your Fast Workers gets the cities up to a good pace fast enough ...

If you like that combo, try Pacal of India. The financial/expansive + fast worker combo allows for breakneck early expansion/growth with an extremely powerful economy. No happiness bonus, true, and that can be a problem when you have the potential for more or less unrestricted growth... But I don't find happiness to be that huge a problem in the early game

i see your point but still ... i'd rather have Orgenized than Financial, and Chr is just as much for when i want to war :p

If you like that combo, try Pacal of India. The financial/expansive + fast worker combo allows for breakneck early expansion/growth with an extremely powerful economy. No happiness bonus, true, and that can be a problem when you have the potential for more or less unrestricted growth... But I don't find happiness to be that huge a problem in the early game

India's UB helps with happiness...

India's UB helps with happiness...

Yeah, after you get jails. Doesn't do squat to help you in the early game when happiness is usually a problem.

Unrestriceted leaders is just plain cheesy.

If you think you have skills , then dont use it.

Unrestriceted leaders is just plain cheesy.

If you think you have skills , then dont use it.

Or use it, and play in harder settings. If Emperor is beyond your skills, but playing Boudica of Rome makes it possible but very difficult, it's a good test of your skills.

Besides, this is a game, not a pissing match - play to have fun, not show off your virtual Wang Kon.

I am cranking out pikemen and musketmen in 1100AD, and I have Suvivorman of Germany doing my dirty work!

:lol: Khmer leader, I presume? (I also refer to him as Survivorman :crazyeye: )

Darius of Portugal on Archipelago looks interesting. Financial/Organized and Feitorias makes for a mad colonizer, methinks. Haven't tried it, but it looks promising.

Unrestriceted leaders is just plain cheesy.

If you think you have skills , then dont use it.

Alternatively, you can take Civs and Leaders which don't work well together and play a more challenging game, instead of playing Liz/Booby/Darius/Nappy of whoever.

Alternatively, you can take Civs and Leaders which don't work well together and play a more challenging game, instead of playing Liz/Booby/Darius/Nappy of whoever.

If that's the case, than I would guess Charlemagne of America (or another ill-suited Civ) would make quite an interesting challenge.

In my opinion, Financial and organized are the best traits on emperor and immortal level because commerce is usually the bottleneck. Organized is the best of the two because it also provides building bonussen on two essential buildings:courthouse and lighthouse.The dike is in my opinion the best unique building closely followed by the feitoria and the rathaus.
Darius is the best leader combining financial and organized.
Agressive/protective: - I usually specialize one city in building military units so I do not need the extra promotions in ALL cities.
Creative: - culture is less important.
Industrious: -/+ wonders are less important,except national wonders.
Philosophical:-/+ handy in the beginning however GP-production levels off quickly. University bonus is nice
Spiritual:-/+ handy but a good player avoids switching civics too much.
Charismatic:-/+ looks very good on paper still there are enough ways to avoid unhappy people for an experienced player. Experience bonus:I usually specialize one city in building military units so I do not need the extra promotions.
Imperialistic: - handy in the beginning however GG-production levels off quickly,settler building is only important in the very beginning.
Expansive:+ good civic after organized and financial the best: harbor and granary are essential buildings for every city and health is important for quickly building an empire.

So I would chose Darius of the Dutch,Portugues,HRE.
Mehmed II with expansive,organized is second choice and Pacal 2
third with financial,expansive.


Down under my explanation why commerce is the bottleneck and how I adjusted my playing style to this.


For the higher difficulty levels( emperor and immortal, deity is crazy) at random settings without having to dependent on luck space victory is by far the easiest.
Cultural victory is also very easy at random settings but luck is needed since your civilization will lack a big modern army to defend itself. Also I dislike cultural because it is unbalanced and simplistic(you only need three cities and have to pump up the culture slider and than build a large but obsolete army to defend these three cities).

Domination,conquest is impossible without extreme luck because capturing and especially holding cities takes a lot of time because of the exponential strain war and captured cities puts on your gold, even if you are succesful you risk being defeated by weaker civilizations who win by cultural or space victory. If you win domination or conquest on emperor and immortal at random maps you must be a very good Civ 4 player.


SPACE VICTORY GUIDE on immortal/emperor

To acquire space victory teching and a large empire to quickly built the spaceship is essential. For teching AND to sustain a large empire gold is needed, so in my opinion gold is the bottleneck on emperor and immortal.
Om emperor I have won with most leaders by focussing on teching and citybuilding while maintaining a small but strong modern army and navy(strong enough to defend and deter aggressive leaders) . Teching order is ofcourse dependent on the resources available and the maps(water, no water) etc.
Alphabet,pottery, bronze working,mathematics are essential for early and sustained teching: Chop the woods,build cottages on them an build research in your cities. Alphabet is the most important! Consider masonry if stone is near and you have a good chance of building the piramids. Still piramids will mean long term benefit but you risk bad early development.

In general I do not build world wonders ( takes too much time,timing of building is forced upon you)
Only exception is the Three Gorges (I reserve usually one or two engineers for this one, needs river tile city). National wonders are much better since the timing of building is free. Oxford,Moai statues,Heroic epic,Wallstreet are my favorites.


Citybuilding(everycity,library,observatory,univers ity,lab,factory,forge,bank).
Every other building is optional depending on the specific game. Altough I stated that gold is essential I usually focus on building in the following order science,production,commerce etc. I usually build 8 cities.

Capital is the science city (build Oxford and National Park,Academy) and produces research if no important building orders are available.
I have one production city(Military Academy,drydock, barracks,Heroic epic,Moai statues or Ironworks,build mines no windmills here) for all purpose unit building. One commercial city(cottages,Wallstreet!, ALL commercial buildings here, corporations optional if circumstances right:Sid's Sushi is the best) build ONLY wealth here most of the time.

The other cities are minor science and secondary production cities and the city furthest from the capital but still central in the empire has a forbidden palace(therefore I build 8 cities). In general I prefer building cottages, a Town can become a Farm in one turn, however a Farm will take forever to become a Town. Also commerce is more important than food.

Military units:build not to much units(stay below the upkeep for units delete warriors,archers but upgrade less costly upgrades rifleman>infantry) and keep them modern. Remember your military is primarily for self defense not for conquest. Build in one production city for maximum promotions and buidling speed. Expand and modernize your military if diplomacy is souring,sometimes this prevents war. City defending gets the highest priority so build city garrison units with the garrison promotions. Navy is important to protect vital sea resources.Get oil! Even if its means travelling all over the world.
Focus on battleships they do collateral damage.



Civics order is dependent on the specific game.

In general very early:none at all, unless spiritual leader.
Slavery is not an option.

Early/mid game organize building (if religion has spread),mercantilism,constitution,bureaucracy,serf dom.
Free market is sometimes better than mercantilism.

Mid to late:constitution, bureaucracy,enviromentalism,emancipation,free religion. Free speech(+2 gold town) is good but bureacracy is better if you have a big capital and still small minor cities. Count your towns in your minor cities there is a turnover point!

State property really is not necessary with 8 cities and a strategically placed forbidden palace. Also enviromentalism is absolutely necessary for big cities and the windmill bonus rules.

Late to very late universal suffrage(build cottages!), free speech(build cottages!),enviromentalism(build windmills!),emancipation,free religion.


I recently won a space victory with Darius of the Persians on immortal at 1952BC(random settings). I started on an Island and build 8 cities, at the time I came into contact with other civilizations(7) I was last in score and science but had most science and production buildings in all cities. By clever downtrading(only trade with the lowest score civ) and avoiding uptrading(trading with the most powerful civs) and science at 80-90% I slowly gained scientific dominance and climbed the score tree. While keeping a small but strong army and navy.

At 1900 I was second in score but Toetanchamon(first) was bound for a cultural victory. Every Civ was Friendly or pleased with me, I had avoided war by using a generous trading policy and neutral stance on all policies. At around 1910 I razed in a Blitzkrieg using my modern mobile army(modern armor) and navy the two most cultured cities of Toetanchamon. Although Toetanchamon's army was much larger, because of me razing his two strongest cities, and threatening others I forced him to seal a peace treaty. This gave me time to to build the spaceship.

@Conanski

You have some good points in there although I do disagree with the commerce vs food. Running Hybrib games you can still do a good commerce city or 2-3. In the early game I feel food-mines for fast growth then once your core cities are established, then cottage after Emancipation (100% growth)

An interesting strategy would be to pair the Inca with a Philosophical leader. The UB basically acts as a cultural trait, and since the Inca start with Mysticism they can try and go for an early religion. Even if they miss, Priesthood is available right then, which allows for Writing more cheaply and provides an immediate set of prereqs for CoL (courthouses and another religion). Two temples allow for two priests for very early Great Prophets and thus Shrines, and the economy stays afloat for a long time. Quechuas also hep with defence early on and lessen the immediate need for Mining, uness an aggressive rival is next door, and even then Hunting and Archery are cheap enough for a detour.

The leaders in this case depend on the second trait:

- Lizzy: Would compete with Darius for the best economy.
- Frederick: See above, compounded by cheap courthouses and lighthouses.
- Suleiman: Cheap Settler production now becomes much more interesting.
- Alexander: The Quechuas get a small boost, but this strategy is more geared to a cultural or Space victory.
- Pericles: Creative negates the UB bonus and he gets no immediate building bonus, but the library is available quickly to make the transition to scientists earlier, allowing a quicker Great Scientist to be settled and providing a large tech lead. A Cultural victory is also slightly easier on paper, but the jury is out on this combo.
- Lincoln: He doesn't provide much here, as the Temples will combat unhappiness before luxuries while Quechuas have difficulty acquiring enough XPs in combat to make a difference.
- Sitting Bull: Limited benefit unless Archery is available, then REXing can be done with less fear of Barbarians.
- Peter: The extra health is of very limited use early on, but the UB is in service much quicker as are workers, which help create enough population points for specialists and, if more workers, quicker improvments, especially roads, when, with an Open Borders, allow trade routes and religions to spread faster.
- Gandhi: No anarchy saves some time, but also allows you to select as your state religion the first one to spread to the AI via a free change. The free Missionary can spread it. Meanwhile, the temples are cheaper for faster priests.

Sounds great for cultural, space even diplomatic victories. This strategy would work well with any philosophical leader with a starting tech of Mysticism (India), but the UB gives it a big kick and makes Stonehenge redundant.

Boudicca of Rome is a no-brainer but in fact any Aggressive or Charismatic leader with Praetorians would do very well. If we would like synergy with the Roman UB, the second trait could be Philosophical, so Alex or Lincoln.

I would swap Babylonian and Sumerian leaders. Hammurabi of Sumeria: research BW and Priesthood, build lots of Vultures, capture lots of cities, build insanely cheap Ziggurats. Gilgamesh of Babylon would be a culture monster: cheap Gardens guarded by protective Bowmen.

Darius of HRE = spam cities like no tomorrow, build these cheap Rathauses and watch your skyrocketting economy.

Hammurabi of Zulu = like Darius but weaker economy and stronger army. Go, conquer, heal, build Ikhanda, build Courthouse, rinse, repeat.

S.