Ok, I may be the only one to think like this, but it strikes me as very odd that upon one nation building the Manhattan project, all nations with rocketry and uranium can build their own nukes. I would prefer that the Manhattan Project stay a wonder but also require the remaining civs to build a national wonder version ('Nuclear Weapons Program" or something) to let them join the nuclear club. And to make the Manhattan Project more valuable, other than the GP points, make nukes 33-50% cheaper for that civ. Or maybe bring back the free units from CIV 3 and have the Manhattan Project give a free nuke every so often, or a unique A-bomb that could be loaded onto a Bomber...

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

personally I think there should be a national wonder like you said but also the ability to use spies to get the knowledge of nukes instead of what is here now

I kind of like the idea that the manhattan project unleashes nukes upon the whole world. Sort of makes it that terrible "I have created a monster" Thing as it was in history.

The other nations still need to get the techs to be able to build the nukes, its not instant for everyone.

I agree, but I'd make a nuclear research project as a national wonder, and if included as the manhattan project, it simply reduces cost or acts as a source of uranium, or some small enchancement.

It drives me insane. I totally agree that everyone should have to research their own nuclear programes.

Maybe I'd actually see nukes used in my games if this was the case.

NUCLEAR REVISIONS

1. Nukes require a Nuclear Plant in the city to be built (the infrastructure for getting weapons grade material)
2. Manhattan Project removes this requirement so you can build nukes in any city.
Change:
ICBMs require Satellites (cost 300)

Tactical Nukes require Composites increase Range to 6, and Damage to 1 tile instead of 9 (cost 200)

Increase Damage from Nuclear Attacks (75-90% Population and Buildings, bomb shelters only protect population... and slightly units)

Add:
Nuclear Bombers (Just like Bombers but with a 1 tile (not 9 tile) suicide nuclear attack and require Uranium) require Flight and Radio (cost 180)

Atom Bombs (Ground Nuclear units, move 1, have a 1 tile suicide Nuclear Attack) (cost 150)

Change:
Bunkers+Bomb Shelters should act like Walls + Castles Defense bonuses [except they Work against Gunpowder units] or possibly just reduce Collateral Damage.
[Bunkers should still give the bonus v. Air + Artillery, and Bomb Shelters still some defense v. Nukes, although not as much]

NAVAL REVISIONS:
***Needed***
If a Stealth unit is the best one for combat in a Stack (when the Stack is either attacking Or defending) then the player gets a choice whether to use that unit for combat or keep them hidden
********

Planes on a Carrier should auto-bombard if their Stack is attacked.

There should be an Air unit promotion that allows Lethal Naval Bombardment

Stealth Destroyers need to detect Subs

Bonus for Subs v. 'Capital Ships' [Carriers, Battleships and Missile Cruisers]

GENERAL DIPLOMACY ADDITION:
Popular opinion of Foreign Leaders
Each AI Civ Leader has an Opinion of every other Civ Leader
Their people should also Opinion rating of other Civ Leaders

So if CivA signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with CivB after being Furious with CivB for a long time, the CivA's cities should get unhappiness ("you are dealing with our enemies")
If CivA goes to War with CivC after being Friendly for a Long time, CivA should get unhappiness ("you are destroying our friends")

If CivA goes to war with CivB after being Furious for a Long time CivA gets Happiness ("you are destroying our enemies")
If CivA signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with CivB after being Friendly with you for a long time, CivA get Happiness ("you are dealing with our friends")

The KEY thing here is .. that should apply to both AI and Human civs.... if the AIs keep bugging you for things, your people will be happy if you attack them.

How do you know how Your people feel about another civ? You have a Leader that you chose and they have a set of AI Diplomatic modifiers. So if you chose Isabella as your leader, they will be happy to crush the Heathens, but will really protest if you attack fellow Christians, Buddhists, etc. or another civ with Theocracy.

You could then look at those modifiers, they would show up whenever were seeing how another civ felt about you, you would see how your people felt about them. [The 'people's feeling' would be the accumulation of that for multiple turns, so a declaration of war wouldn't make your people hate someone... a Long war would though]



NEW UNITS:

Bombard: Requires Gunpowder and Engineering (siege unit) [replace Catapult and Trebuchet]
Str 6 +50% v. Cities, Move 1
12% city bombardment damage (ignores Castles+Walls)
Cost 90, requires Copper or Iron

Strike Troops: Require Fiber Optics and Advanced Flight [replace Paratroopers and Marines and Explorers]
Strength 28 (OR Str 24 + Woodsman I + Guerilla I)
move 2 + Ignore move cost (OR move 1 + Commando)
Paradrop range 7, Amphibious promotion
Cost 200-220

Televangelists: Require Mass Media (and Monastery) [replace Missionaries] cost 100
act like religious ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can try to plant their religion in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no Theocracy).

Executive Jets: Require Advanced Flight (and corporate office) [replace Executives] cost 180
act like corporate ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can pay to plant their corporation in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no State Property/Mercantilism).

*Revised unit:
Machine Guns: Change to Gunpowder unit that Can Attack, but has +50% Defense v. Gunpowder and Mounted units, -40% Collateral Damage suffered

Let Riflemen+Grenadier upgrade to Machine Guns (the new ones that Can attack)
Let Machine Guns upgrade to Infantry, SAM Infantry, or Mech Infantry and have Infantry only upgrade to Mech Infantry
[So that getting Machine Guns OR Infantry OR SAMs will obsolete Rifles+Grenadiers]

OTHER REVISIONS:

New Leaders, to get the remaining slots:
Meji of the Japanese [Protective Organized] favors Bureaucracy
Hiawatha of the Native Americans [Charismatic Creative] favors Representation

Great Generals:
when attached to a unit, every unit in the Leader's stack has the effect of every promotion that
1. The Leader has
2. They are eligible for
3. They Don't have
so if a Longbow without CG 1 is stacked with a Leader with CG I, that Longbow gets +20% city defense
'Leadership', 'Morale', 'Tactics', and 'Combat 6' would need to be toned down or eliminated

Military Academy:
+75% Military Production, +3 culture

Walls:
Give +20% resistance to enemy spies

Great Wall:
requires Wall in city that builds it

Castle:
Obsoletes with Corporation

Serfdom:
No Maintenance

Military Science:
Required for Ambush promotion
Raises Experience cap from 10-20
Drops upgrade cost by 25%

Interception promotions require Rocketry (available to all Gunpowder+Naval(non sub/Capital ship) units)


RELIGION IMPROVEMENTS
Philosophy gives 3 Missionaries for its religion
Theology gives 5 Missionaries for its religion
Divine Right gives 5 Missionaries for its religion, and a Great Prophet


Next War Civ UNIQUE B/U (Stick with the Leader name/trait.. just get better Leader heads)

America:
UU-Improved Strike Troops: Str +4
UB-International Airport: +10% Commerce

Europe:
UU-Assault Gunship: Start with Combat 1, Do collateral Damage (10%)
UB-Mass Transit: +2 Gold per Specialist

Asia:
UU-Rocket Artillery: Ranged Bombardment capacity (Range 1, 50% normal)
UB-Security Center: +15% Production, costs +80 hammers more

South:
UU-Revolutionary: Spy moves 2, ignore move cost, has Sentry, reduced cost
UB-Biomedical Complex (Replace Hospital): +10% Food no Health Bonus

a national wonder would be good. Also, you should be able to use spy to "inflitrate" someone's nuke program and then you get a production bonus in your own program.

The way I see it, the Manhatten Project should provide the civ that builds it with a new "unit", the A-Bomb, only usable if first loaded onto a bomber. ICBMs perhaps requiring another tech after rocketry, because ICBMs did NOT just become possible after the real Manhatten Project.

ICBMs would be best with Satellites, Tac nukes with composites

Instead of an A-Bomb loaded onto a bomber, it would probably just be easier to have a Nuclear Bomber (does a Nuke Strike that hits one tile only, requires Flight+Radio +Uranium and Nuclear Plant )

It drives me insane. I totally agree that everyone should have to research their own nuclear programes.

Why? No one did in real life.

ICBMs would be best with Satellites, Tac nukes with composites

Instead of an A-Bomb loaded onto a bomber, it would probably just be easier to have a Nuclear Bomber (does a Nuke Strike that hits one tile only, requires Flight+Radio +Uranium and Nuclear Plant )

Perhaps that would be neater. And it'd be as good an excuse as any to include the B-52.
Though if I had my way, A-Bombs/nuclear bombers would do the damage ICBMs do now, and ICBM/tacnuke damage would be ramped up. :nuke:

Why? No one did in real life.

What in blazes are you talking about?
Even the Russians who stole a lot of atomic research through espionage had to proceed with their own program and tests.

Here are my thoughts on the Manhattan Project. (I posted this in a different thread a week or so ago, and just copied it here.)


A change I would like to see is with the Manhattan project. I generally do not build it unless I control all the uranium, because it means using a lot of hammers to give my enemies a really powerful weapon for free. It really doesn't give the person who built it an advantage.

I think that the first nation that builds the Manhattan project should be able to built nukes, but the others have to to get that info for themselves. Additional civs could get the Manhattan project in one of three ways

Build it themselves - but civs should get a 25% or 50% production bonus since others have figured it out and they can use that information. I'm sure it's not as hard for North Korea or Iran to develop nukes now as it was for the U.S. because they already basically know how.
Steal it with spies - The Soviet Union largely learned nuclear technology through its spies. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_atomic_bomb_project)
Get it through trade - Lots of nations got help developing their nuclear programs, like Israel getting help from France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel)


I think these changes would not only make it more historical, but would improve gameplay. It would be more worth it to build, and would give you an advantage.

To prevent abuse, there should be penalties for using nukes too much:

Unhappiness - Every time you nuke a city, it should cause unhappiness in your civ, because people are angry you are nuking others and because they are afraid of retaliation. The unhappiness should last the entire war, and then slowly decrease over time. Each city nuked adds another frowny face.
Easier to steal - Stealing the Manhattan Project should be hard at first, but stockpiling nukes and using nukes should make it easy to steal. By easier, I mean cheaper to try and higher probability of working. The more nukes built and used, the easier it is.
Diplomacy hit - Nuking a civ that doesn't have nuclear technology should have an even higher diplomacy hit with the AI. It should also greatly increase the chance that the AI will use the UN to place trade restrictions on you or propose a non-nuclear treaty.


Finally, using nukes should not cause global warming. That is stupid. Too many nukes should cause nuclear winters, where a percentage of the tiles in the world lose one food for a few turns. Global warming could be an event caused by large levels of unhealthiness around the world, which could be combated by worldwide environmentalism. It should not only cause deserts, but should turn tundra into grasslands and melt ocean ice to reveal ocean. It could also randomly damage improvements on the coasts.

To prevent abuse, there should be penalties for using nukes too much:

Unhappiness - Every time you nuke a city, it should cause unhappiness in your civ, because people are angry you are nuking others and because they are afraid of retaliation. The unhappiness should last the entire war, and then slowly decrease over time. Each city nuked adds another frowny face.
Easier to steal - Stealing the Manhattan Project should be hard at first, but stockpiling nukes and using nukes should make it easy to steal. By easier, I mean cheaper to try and higher probability of working. The more nukes built and used, the easier it is.
Diplomacy hit - Nuking a civ that doesn't have nuclear technology should have an even higher diplomacy hit with the AI. It should also greatly increase the chance that the AI will use the UN to place trade restrictions on you or propose a non-nuclear treaty.


Finally, using nukes should not cause global warming. That is stupid. Too many nukes should cause nuclear winters, where a percentage of the tiles in the world lose one food for a few turns. Global warming could be an event caused by large levels of unhealthiness around the world, which could be combated by worldwide environmentalism. It should not only cause deserts, but should turn tundra into grasslands and melt ocean ice to reveal ocean. It could also randomly damage improvements on the coasts.

Nukes do cause high levels of WW (maybe not enough but they cause it)

Also Global Warming does need to be revamped (and probably renamed)

The Manhattan Project is fine as it is.

^^ Heh, sounds like a line right out of those "Nightmare" Civ comics.

... Anyways, I agree on this; I've always felt it was kinda weird that one civilization could do all the work, allowing EVERYONE to reap the benefit- friends, foes, people you've never even met, whomever.

Krikktone, just a heads up, your sig is to long, 5 lines of 2 size font

Why? No one did in real life.

Are you serious? Every nuclear power has had to make nukes on their own, which requires their own nuclear program. Russia, France, Israel, N. Korea, and now Iran... All of them have their own nuke programs, along with stealing the info from the US or America giving it to them.

This modification will make the Manhattan Project a National Wonder, and limit nuclear weapons to people who build this national wonder.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=238246

... just thought some of you might be interested in this.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=238246

... just thought some of you might be interested in this.

You are a great man :goodjob:

I too have thought that the Manhattan Project needed some work done to it and made mention of most of this in the "What's for Civ 5" thread. Basically, I think the following should be done;

1): Require everyone to build the National Wonder "Atomic Weapons Project" in order to build nuclear weapons.

2): The "Manhattan Project" would still be a World Wonder that is credited to the first Civ to research the Atomic Weapons Project. (E.G. After the MP is built, it would turn into the AWP for all other civs). If you build the Manhattan Project you get a 50% cost reduction for all nuclear weapons your Civ builds.

3): The MP/AWP would require Fission, Physics, Uranium, and 2 or more Universities in order to construct. For the AWP, you could also steal "nuclear secrets" which would reduce the production cost of your national wonder. Nuclear secrets could be obtained from espionage, diplomacy, or a dud nuclear weapon from another civ. (E.G. a Civ attacks you but their nuke is a dud).

4): The presence of a nuclear power plant in your city reduces nuclear weapon production costs in that city.

5): The presence of a University in your city reduces the nuclear weapon production costs, but not as much as that of a power plant. (Since a research reactor wouldn't have the production of a commercial reactor).

6): Nuclear weapons all start out with a high probability of failure. Tactical Nukes would have a 90% chance of failure, ICBMs would start out with an 80% chance of failure, and Thermonuclear Weapons would have a 70% chance of failure.

7): To reduce the chance of failure, you would need to test your nuclear weapons. Testing would consume the nuclear weapon, but would reduce the % chance that the next weapon would fail. Therefore, the more you test the greater the likelyhood that your next nuke would work. The % failure reduction would ONLY apply to that same class of nukes. Therefore, testing a bunch of tactical nukes will not reduce the failure chance of your ICBMs.

8): Testing a weapon would require actually launching the weapon in your territory and so that would require an uninhabitted plot of land which you could routinely nuke. A successful detonation reduces the failure % by 15%, and a "dud" reduces it by 5%. So when you first start building tacticals if you successfully test 6 missiles, you'll reduce the failure % down to 0% failure and any subsequent missiles will be guaranteed to work. However, this will cost you 6 missiles to do this and they are not all guaranteed to work. Doing this will make it so that even if you quickly learn how to make nuclear weapons, you'll need to do a lot of testing to make sure they work.

9): When you test a nuclear weapon, it alerts all other civs that a test has taken place and it can put a huge damper on your diplomatic relations.

10): The % failure for a missile is dependent on the unit. Therefore, Civ A can do all the testing and sell their missile to Civ B who will know that they work. This way a vassal can do all the testing for their master if their master provides the uranium. The master would still need to do some testing of their own if they want to produce automatically working missiles, but the amount would be greatly reduced. (E.G. if you are gifted a 100% working nuclear weapon and have enough universities in your empire, you can basically "dismantle it" and figure out how to get it to work without having to test them like the initial person did).

11): Once Fusion is learned, you can then build Thermonuclear Weapons. These weapons are MUCH more powerful than the tactical and ICBM nukes, but they are also more expensive and "dirty". That is, they will contaminate a large area of land and the contamination can drift and cover friendly lands if you are not careful. Therefore, they would be a "last resort" type of weapon but a very powerful one. Just having one would create an MAD type situation with other civs that have them. In addition, because thermonuclear weapons spread more radiation around than a regular nuke, the environmental mess would be much bigger and if you used one it would have big consequences.

I think the inclusion of testing would really make things interesting as now just having one Civ build the Manhattan Project wouldn't mean that every Civ on earth became a nuclear power. I think the cost of nuclear missiles should be high enough so that people can't just spam them up the wazoo without the resources, and by making the cost high it would make testing them expensive, yet VERY worthwhile. This way, you would have to have built up a good empire to afford all the tests and and missiles that you'd have to say "bye-bye" to in order to assure that your weapons are good.

It would also be neat if you were the first Civ to build nukes and you tested them like crazy, but a rival Civ also researched nukes yet hadn't tested them. You could then unleash a massive attack of nuclear proportions that Rival Civ knowing that there's a very good chance his nukes will be duds and he'll soon be wasted away into oblivion. Of course, the AI would know that about you as well. Plus, if you have to launch one to test one, the whole world would know that Civ X now has nuclear capabilities. There's also nothing stopping a Civ from stockpiling nuclear weapons, then in one turn launching a bunch of them as a "test" and making it so all subsequent nukes that they fire are 100% successful. :goodjob:

I too have thought that the Manhattan Project needed some work done to it and made mention of most of this in the "What's for Civ 5" thread. Basically, I think the following should be done;

1): Require everyone to build the National Wonder "Atomic Weapons Project" in order to build nuclear weapons.

2): The "Manhattan Project" would still be a World Wonder that is credited to the first Civ to research the Atomic Weapons Project. (E.G. After the MP is built, it would turn into the AWP for all other civs). If you build the Manhattan Project you get a 50% cost reduction for all nuclear weapons your Civ builds.

3): The MP/AWP would require Fission, Physics, Uranium, and 2 or more Universities in order to construct. For the AWP, you could also steal "nuclear secrets" which would reduce the production cost of your national wonder. Nuclear secrets could be obtained from espionage, diplomacy, or a dud nuclear weapon from another civ. (E.G. a Civ attacks you but their nuke is a dud).

4): The presence of a nuclear power plant in your city reduces nuclear weapon production costs in that city.

5): The presence of a University in your city reduces the nuclear weapon production costs, but not as much as that of a power plant. (Since a research reactor wouldn't have the production of a commercial reactor).

6): Nuclear weapons all start out with a high probability of failure. Tactical Nukes would have a 90% chance of failure, ICBMs would start out with an 80% chance of failure, and Thermonuclear Weapons would have a 70% chance of failure.

7): To reduce the chance of failure, you would need to test your nuclear weapons. Testing would consume the nuclear weapon, but would reduce the % chance that the next weapon would fail. Therefore, the more you test the greater the likelyhood that your next nuke would work. The % failure reduction would ONLY apply to that same class of nukes. Therefore, testing a bunch of tactical nukes will not reduce the failure chance of your ICBMs.

8): Testing a weapon would require actually launching the weapon in your territory and so that would require an uninhabitted plot of land which you could routinely nuke. A successful detonation reduces the failure % by 15%, and a "dud" reduces it by 5%. So when you first start building tacticals if you successfully test 6 missiles, you'll reduce the failure % down to 0% failure and any subsequent missiles will be guaranteed to work. However, this will cost you 6 missiles to do this and they are not all guaranteed to work. Doing this will make it so that even if you quickly learn how to make nuclear weapons, you'll need to do a lot of testing to make sure they work.

9): When you test a nuclear weapon, it alerts all other civs that a test has taken place and it can put a huge damper on your diplomatic relations.

10): The % failure for a missile is dependent on the unit. Therefore, Civ A can do all the testing and sell their missile to Civ B who will know that they work. This way a vassal can do all the testing for their master if their master provides the uranium. The master would still need to do some testing of their own if they want to produce automatically working missiles, but the amount would be greatly reduced. (E.G. if you are gifted a 100% working nuclear weapon and have enough universities in your empire, you can basically "dismantle it" and figure out how to get it to work without having to test them like the initial person did).

11): Once Fusion is learned, you can then build Thermonuclear Weapons. These weapons are MUCH more powerful than the tactical and ICBM nukes, but they are also more expensive and "dirty". That is, they will contaminate a large area of land and the contamination can drift and cover friendly lands if you are not careful. Therefore, they would be a "last resort" type of weapon but a very powerful one. Just having one would create an MAD type situation with other civs that have them. In addition, because thermonuclear weapons spread more radiation around than a regular nuke, the environmental mess would be much bigger and if you used one it would have big consequences.

I think the inclusion of testing would really make things interesting as now just having one Civ build the Manhattan Project wouldn't mean that every Civ on earth became a nuclear power. I think the cost of nuclear missiles should be high enough so that people can't just spam them up the wazoo without the resources, and by making the cost high it would make testing them expensive, yet VERY worthwhile. This way, you would have to have built up a good empire to afford all the tests and and missiles that you'd have to say "bye-bye" to in order to assure that your weapons are good.

It would also be neat if you were the first Civ to build nukes and you tested them like crazy, but a rival Civ also researched nukes yet hadn't tested them. You could then unleash a massive attack of nuclear proportions that Rival Civ knowing that there's a very good chance his nukes will be duds and he'll soon be wasted away into oblivion. Of course, the AI would know that about you as well. Plus, if you have to launch one to test one, the whole world would know that Civ X now has nuclear capabilities. There's also nothing stopping a Civ from stockpiling nuclear weapons, then in one turn launching a bunch of them as a "test" and making it so all subsequent nukes that they fire are 100% successful. :goodjob:

That is freaking brilliant. i was just think about trying to bring a way to make testing nukes relevant in the game, but couldnt come up with it. Thats a great idea, i really hope someone would make a mod that does that.:goodjob:

If I had any knowledge about how to mod, I would consider something like that but I'm honestly not the person to do that. I think they could add this to either an expansion, or even better a patch to the game. I've always felt that nuclear weapons were kind of ignored in the Civilization series of games, as well as all other modern day warfare involving rockets and weapons. I'd like to see regular attack missiles be used, biological weapons, nerve gases, etc. Other types of nasty, long range attacks that could be used in place of nuclear weapons. Nukes should remain the "last resort" and the "ultimate threat" like they are in real life. The requirement of testing is a good way to prevent their overuse, and also to alert all civs that someone has just become a nuclear power.

Imagine playing a game and all of a sudden a message pops up stating that your closest neighbor, with whom you've had testy relationships with, has just successfully test a nuclear weapon. Now you know that he has the ability to launch nukes on you and that diplomatically you'll need to start making better relations.

Just a quick little bump as I think the nuclear weapons in this game are a bit fuddy-duddy and if Firaxis could somehow make these modifications in a big patch, or heaven forbid another expansion, that would be incredibly sweet!

I think building the Manhattan Project should give you a unique technology, that only you have. It allows you to build nuclear weapons. You could sell this technology to other nations at a high price, other nations could steal it from you (would work well with the new espionage system), or there could be a national wonder later on for civs unable to get it any of the other ways.

I made a suggestion before about being able to declare a no-first use policy - with a +3 with every civ diplo boost and no diplo pentalty for using them in retaliation for a nuclear attack. the declaration can be broken, but with severe diplo penalties

I too have thought that the Manhattan Project needed some work done to it and made mention of most of this in the "What's for Civ 5" thread. Basically, I think the following should be done;
snip for brevity....

Wow, I must say that this idea is... in fact, fantastic. This might actually make nuclear weapons effective in my games... I've only ever built a nuke once, just because I wanted to see the graphics and sounds for it when it goes off. I wasn't too impressed, to say the least. I really like the idea of Thermonuclear weapons being super powerful and creating a MAD situation, and using nuclear weapons has to give you penalties. It also makes sense to put "the ultimate weapon" at the end of the tech tree, not to mention the fact that nukes in civ should have a huge impact on the world, as they do in real life.

11): Once Fusion is learned, you can then build Thermonuclear Weapons. These weapons are MUCH more powerful than the tactical and ICBM nukes, but they are also more expensive and "dirty". That is, they will contaminate a large area of land and the contamination can drift and cover friendly lands if you are not careful. Therefore, they would be a "last resort" type of weapon but a very powerful one. Just having one would create an MAD type situation with other civs that have them. In addition, because thermonuclear weapons spread more radiation around than a regular nuke, the environmental mess would be much bigger and if you used one it would have big consequences.



Fission bombs are more dirty than Fusion bombs. Therefore regular ICBMs and tactical nuclear weapons would create more fallout.

Fission bombs are more dirty than Fusion bombs. Therefore regular ICBMs and tactical nuclear weapons would create more fallout.

But Fusion bombs are much more destructive, minus the fallout, correct? I'm not that up to date on this stuff I guess, but that makes sense to me.

Perhaps once Superconducters (or some other advanced tech) have been discovered, you could test your nukes using super-computers instead of actual physical testing (provided you have a laboratory).

But for that to make any sence you would need to have nuclear weapons testing in the game in the first place.

@jdurg

Awsome idea-but have Israel ever tested theirs?

@Lord Olleus (http://forums.civfanatics.com/member.php?u=66170) vbmenu_register("postmenu_5914378", true); that's taken as given- it would require a mod to work.

Maybe the option could be availble to sell nuclearn technology, to improve the odds.

This is particularly good, as the reason the US hit Nagasakia and Hiroshima rather than simply demonstrating their power on an uninhabited island was that they weren't sure it would work- if it failed and they had made a big deal about it, they would lose face. Whereas three planes over a city could just be scouts, and were mistaken as such.

Maybe they could require lots of maintainance, to keep safety levels at 100%? This could simulate the slightly dogy stock of Warheads are Archangel for example.

Fission bombs are more dirty than Fusion bombs. Therefore regular ICBMs and tactical nuclear weapons would create more fallout.

Nope. That is simply not correct. A fusion bomb REQUIRES a fission detonation in order for the temperatures and pressures need for a fusion reaction to occur. The fusion reaction creates a massive amount of high energy neutrons which irradiate the surroundings and create more radioactive and fissionable materials out of the bomb surroundings. This is why even fission bombs have some amount of fusion taking place in order to boost the fission yield of the device. The massive amount of fast neutrons created by the fusion process causes typically unfissionable U-238 to fission which creates more fallout and more radioactive byproducts. If you look at the data from all of the nuclear testing that has occurred on this planet, you'll see that the contamination and "dirtyness" of the fusion devices were far greater than that of the fission devices. :nuke:

@jdurg

Awsome idea-but have Israel ever tested theirs?



I can't recall off the top of my head. They may have performed underground testing, or they purchased their devices from other nations, then using their own research they figured out how to make working devices themselves. (Which is something that could be done if Firaxis takes my suggestions. A Civ with enough universities and laboratories could obtain a weapon from another civ and then figure out how to build them successfully themselves).

I can't recall off the top of my head. They may have performed underground testing, or they purchased their devices from other nations, then using their own research they figured out how to make working devices themselves. (Which is something that could be done if Firaxis takes my suggestions. A Civ with enough universities and laboratories could obtain a weapon from another civ and then figure out how to build them successfully themselves).

The Israeli nuclear capabilities are very hush-hush. Although we're farely sure they have them, they have a policy of policy of deliberate ambiguity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Policy_of_deliberate_ambiguity) (unofficial but carryed out very rigidly).

They haven't tested- saying they won't be the first to 'introduce...into the middle east'

They did indeed buy from the French test results (apparantrlt) so strengthening that idea

I suppose this supports your ideas- they haven't tested them, becuase that would reveal them (not a lot of spare room there...). Ity would also give them a diplomacy hit, which they can hardly afford, considering the arab's views of them.

Would also be nice if nuclear weapons were invisible, and had to be spied out. So spies could 'inflitrate nuclear program'. If sucessful, new missions would become avalible, like 'detonate' 'steal' 'locate' 'tag' etc.

@jdurg

Awsome idea-but have Israel ever tested theirs?




Wasnt there some suspicion that them and South Africa did some type of joint test in the 70s?

Wasnt there some suspicion that them and South Africa did some type of joint test in the 70s?

Hmm, Wikipedia doesn't mention anything, and I would expect it to if there was even a hint. Surely a tyest would be hard to hide? WE spotted the North Korean one from siezmic readings I think, although we were looking for it.

Incidently, South Africa is the only country to volunterilly dismantle it's entire arsenal (unless they are very very very sneaky :rolleyes: )

NUCLEAR REVISIONS

1. Nukes require a Nuclear Plant in the city to be built (the infrastructure for getting weapons grade material)

Change:
ICBMs require Satellites (cost 300)
Change:
Bunkers+Bomb Shelters should act like Walls + Castles Defense bonuses [except they Work against Gunpowder units] or possibly just reduce Collateral Damage.

NAVAL REVISIONS:
***Needed***
If a Stealth unit is the best one for combat in a Stack (when the Stack is either attacking Or defending) then the player gets a choice whether to use that unit for combat or keep them hidden
********

Planes on a Carrier should auto-bombard if their Stack is attacked.

There should be an Air unit promotion that allows Lethal Naval Bombardment

Stealth Destroyers need to detect Subs

Bonus for Subs v. 'Capital Ships' [Carriers, Battleships and Missile Cruisers]


These are the changes that I think should really be done. Especially the ship combat stuff. I'd call the promotion to allow planes to sink ships "torpedo equipped". Instead of a bonus for subs against capital ships, I'd give those ships a 50% penalty against subs and have a similar torpedo promotion that counters the 50%.

Hmm, Wikipedia doesn't mention anything, and I would expect it to if there was even a hint. Surely a tyest would be hard to hide? WE spotted the North Korean one from siezmic readings I think, although we were looking for it.

Incidently, South Africa is the only country to volunterilly dismantle it's entire arsenal (unless they are very very very sneaky :rolleyes: )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vela_Incident

Funny how there was no obveous link internally. Thanks for the link, although it seems to be the most uncertain subject I've read about on wikipedia thus far!

Gopes to back up the idea of testing giving the game awya though. Maybe tests, carries out in neutral territory (on subs?) would be impossibly/hard to tell the nationalioty of?

I think it should be a special tech in the tech tree, "nuclear weapons" requires fission, and is not available for anyone to research until the Manhattan project is complete. Once it is complete, the team that finished it gets the nuclear weapons tech for free, everyone else with fission can research it. The advantages of making it a tech instead of a natl wonder are:
1) spies can steal it. If you know which team is about to complete it then you can direct espionage at them at get your spies ready, then you can have it the next turn
2) the usual rules of research costs apply. i.e. the more civs that already know it the easier it becomes to research. It's also tradeable.
3) it's more realistic. In real life it's definitely considered a tech.

3.13 change list
[snip]
NUCLEAR REVISIONS

1. Nukes require a Nuclear Plant in the city to be built (the infrastructure for getting weapons grade material)
2. Manhattan Project removes this requirement so you can build nukes in any city.
Change:
ICBMs require Satellites (cost 300)
Tactical Nukes require Composites increase Range to 6, and Damage to 1 tile (cost 200)
Increase Damage from Nuclear Attacks (75-90% population and Buildings, bomb shelters only protect population... and slightly units)
Add:
Nuclear Bombers (just like Bombers but with a 1 tile (not 9 tile) nuclear attack and require Uranium) require Flight and Radio (cost 180)
Atom Bombs (Ground Nuclear units, move 1, have a 1 tile Nuclear Attack) (cost 150)

Change:
Bunkers+Bomb Shelters should act like Walls + Castles Defense bonuses [except they Work against Gunpowder units] or possibly just reduce Collateral Damage.
[Bunkers should still give the bonus v. Air + Artillery, and Bomb Shelters still some defense v. Nukes, although not as much]

NAVAL REVISIONS:
***Needed***
If a Stealth unit is the best one for combat in a Stack (when the Stack is either attacking Or defending) then the player gets a choice whether to use that unit for combat or keep them hidden
********

Planes on a Carrier should auto-bombard if their Stack is attacked.

There should be an Air unit promotion that allows Lethal Naval Bombardment

Stealth Destroyers need to detect Subs

Bonus for Subs v. 'Capital Ships' [Carriers, Battleships and Missile Cruisers]


NEW UNITS:

Bombard: Requires Gunpowder and Engineering (siege unit) [replace Catapult and Trebuchet]
Str 6 +50% v. Cities, Move 1
12% city bombardment damage (ignores Castles+Walls)
Cost 90, requires Copper or Iron

Strike Troops: Require Fiber Optics and Advanced Flight [replace Paratroopers and Marines and Explorers]
Strength 28 OR Str 24 + Woodsman I + Guerilla I,
move 2 + Ignore move cost OR move 1 + Commando
Paradrop range 7, Amphibious promotion
Cost 200-220

Televangelists: Require Mass Media (and Monastery) [replace Missionaries] cost 100
act like religious ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can try to plant their religion in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no Theocracy).

Executive Jets: Require Advanced Flight (and corporate office) [replace Executives] cost 180
act like corporate ICBMs.. they don't move, just once built they can pay to plant their corporation in any city in the World you have visibility and Open borders with (and no State Property/Mercantilism).


GENERAL DIPLOMACY REVISION:
Popular opinion of Foreign Leaders
Each AI Civ Leader has an Opinion of every other civ Leader...
That Opinion rating should influence their people

So if an AI civ signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with you after being Furious with you for a long time, they will get unhappiness ("you are dealing with our enemies")
If an AI civ goes to War with you after being Friendly for a Long time, they will get unhappiness ("you are destroying our friends")

If an AI civ goes to war with you after being Furious for a Long time they get Happiness ("you are destroying our enemies")
If an AI civ signs an Open Borders/Defensive Pact with you after being Friendly with you for a long time, they will get Happiness ("you are dealing with our friends")

The KEY thing here is .. remove that AI term.... so if the AIs keep bugging you for things, your people will be happy if you attack them.

How do you know how Your people feel about another civ? You have a Leader that you chose and they have a set of Diplomatic modifiers. So if you chose Isabella as your leader, they will be happy to crush the heathens, and will really protest if you attack fellow Christians, buddhists, etc. or another civ with Theocracy.
You could then look at those modifiers, they would show up whenever were seeing how another civ felt about you, you would see how your people felt about them. [The 'people's feeling' would be the accumulation of that for multiple turns, so a declaration of war wouldn't make your people hate someone... a Long war would though]


OTHER REVISIONS:

New Leaders, to get the remaining slots:
Meji of the Japanese [Protective Organized]
Hiawatha of the Native Americans [Charismatic Creative]

Great Generals:
when attached to a unit, every unit in the Leader's stack has the effect of every promotion that
1. The Leader has
2. They are eligible for
3. They Don't have
so if a Longbow without CG 1 is stacked with a Leader with CG I, that Longbow gets +20% city defense
'Leadership', 'Morale', 'Tactics', and 'Combat 6' would need to be toned down or eliminated

Military Academy:
+75% Military Production, +3 culture

Walls:
Give +25% resistance to enemy spies

Great Wall:
requires Wall in city that builds it

Military Science:
Required for Ambush promotion
Raises Experience cap from 10-20
Drops upgrade cost by 25%

Interception promotions require Rocketry (available to all Gunpowder+Naval(non sub/Capital ship) units)

where does that come from?
as nice as it sounds, a source would be nice.

Well my 2 pennies worth is manhatten to stay as now, for all other civs they would need to complete a smaller scale version of this project (cheaper) to reflect the fact that once you know somthing can be done, replicating it is far easier than when you are moving into uncharted waters.

So everyone needs there own project but the first person to do so pays a big cost premium.

As for the changes above, agree with

Subs vs capital bonus
SD sub detection
Early cannon unit
Strike team (dunno about the name though?)

And the diplomacy options look very good, they would correlate foreign diplomacy an happiness very nicely, an give an extra dimension to war/peace an the way you treat people, After all backstabbing an civ who was a good friend should carry far more war unhappyness, than striking at a hated enemy

where does that come from?
as nice as it sounds, a source would be nice.

The change revisions were wedged into there to preserve them from the 'great deleting'

I'll edit it to make it clear where the official changelist ends and my ideas begin.