View Full Version : One City Challenge advice


Carnage04
Sep 01, 2007, 02:40 PM
I have never played a One City Challenge game but I think I will probably try it with the next game I play. I am looking for a little advice and clarification....

1. What Leaders are good for OCC? I'm guessing that there are some traits that really are not helpful. Organized comes to mind as does Expansive, Creative, and Imperialistic. I'm thinking that Industrious could be handy (To crank out National and World Wonders), Aggressive and/or Protective to help a stronger military, Philosophical to get great people (I'm thinking scientists for bulbing and Engineers to build), and maybe charismatic to help get your units promoted quicker.

2. What type of Victory do you go for? Cultural seems to be out as does Diplomatic.

3. What should be the early focus? Teching as fast as possible? Wonders? Military?

4. Do you pretty much hang it up if you cannot connect war resources? In other games...if you don't start with Copper/Iron/Horses you can go out and try to get them. With one city...if they are not in eventual range of your cultural borders you seem to be out of luck.

5. What difficulty level would be best for me to start on? I can win pretty consistently at Emperor in a normal game.....should I bust myself back down a few levels?

Weird Piggy
Sep 01, 2007, 03:20 PM
Actually, expansive helps quite a bit because with Globe Theather it adds a free 3 population. Phil and Industrious are also top tier traits. Financial is not as important as usual.

tboner23
Sep 01, 2007, 03:21 PM
I am trying out my first OCC right now too with China. I figured, at first, that I could use Drill IV Chu-Ko-Nus if I didn't get any strategic metals... but then realized that they need Iron to build. Oops, I can try to trade for Iron, or I will just have to play defense until Gunpowder. My big question is which National Wonders I should build, seeing as I can choose only two. An obvious choice would be Ironworks, otherwise Space Race is definitely out. I was thinking that the other one should be military, but West Point or Heroic Epic? Two things that I think would also help are 1) Get a Religion for the Shrine and to run Theocracy, you want highly promoted units since you cannot spam them. 2) Leave some forests in your cultural borders for defense, even better if they are on hills.

Leader-wise I think Roosevelt would be useful, maybe even Mehmed or France because of the unique units. Isn't HC Ind/Fin... he would probably be a good choice to, especially with the UU Warrior.

Just some thoughts though, I'm blundering my way through this one too.

AnaNg
Sep 01, 2007, 03:41 PM
I just started playing around with these and they're a lot of fun. I'm no expert but maybe I can help a little anyway. (btw I played on Warlords at Noble setting so if you're on something else YMMV)

1. What Leaders are good for OCC? I'm guessing that there are some traits that really are not helpful. Organized comes to mind as does Expansive, Creative, and Imperialistic. I'm thinking that Industrious could be handy (To crank out National and World Wonders), Aggressive and/or Protective to help a stronger military, Philosophical to get great people (I'm thinking scientists for bulbing and Engineers to build), and maybe charismatic to help get your units promoted quicker.

As mentioned, expansive is GREAT. Your biggest problem in your city is going to be health. With the Globe Theatre (a must), you will never have to worry about unhappiness ever again so health is what effects your pop cap. Bismark is a nice leader for the wonders and health, I've won with him and with Ghandi.

2. What type of Victory do you go for? Cultural seems to be out as does Diplomatic.

Cultural is out, Diplomatic is definitely in. I'll admit I fudged my diplomacy game a bit and selected leaders (as I always end up with at least 2 of the following: Monty/Izzy/Toku/Saladin) but still no guarantee. With Bismark I won Space Race.

3. What should be the early focus? Teching as fast as possible? Wonders? Military?

Depends on what you're looking at. My Ghandi win was inspired by someone's no army game so the only military unit I ever had was my initial warrior. As that was Diplo, I focused on religions (founding and spreading) and wonders.

With Bismark I just built wonders (not all of them, just the good ones :) ) and military early on.

4. Do you pretty much hang it up if you cannot connect war resources? In other games...if you don't start with Copper/Iron/Horses you can go out and try to get them. With one city...if they are not in eventual range of your cultural borders you seem to be out of luck.

Nope, see Ghandi game :D But yeah, if you're going to try for Space Race, gifting and trading techs like crazy isn't really going to help you out. And without an army you're going to have problems with that unless you can finagle a nice pet dog.

5. What difficulty level would be best for me to start on? I can win pretty consistently at Emperor in a normal game.....should I bust myself back down a few levels?

Up to you. As mentioned, I'm not nearly as advanced as you and generally play my games on Noble. Non-OCC games aren't a guaranteed win for me on that setting but the OCC ones actually seemed easier in some ways (MUCH harder in others - you can't change all your cities to military production at the drop of a hat if you get attacked suddenly)

Good luck and have fun!

TBoner, iirc you can build more than 2 NWs in a city in an OCC. I could have sworn I did, but I could be wrong. Globe theater is mandatory.

And yeah, you want to leave some forests in your cultural boundaries and also put some junk buildings (forts, farms you can never work, mines etc) around the fringes outside the BFC to buy you time if someone attacks. KMad gave me that tip and it really helps.

xanadux
Sep 01, 2007, 04:02 PM
There is an article in the war academy for OCC deity level domination win (Permanent Alliance enabled). In general, forests within fat cross should be kept because a forest is better than base terrain and is not pillageable. At lower levels this is probably not quite as important. Specialists are better than cottages usually because of the problem of pillaging, and you should have enough workers to reconnect a key resource in 1 turn if it does get pillaged.

AnaNg
Sep 01, 2007, 04:08 PM
Are attacking armies on higher levels less likely to be distracted by pillaging?

I usually leave forests alone (because they are best) and junk-improve (or put forts with troops) on non-forested tiles. The reason for the junk-improve is to buy me time while the attacker wastes it pillaging tiles I never use and don't care about. But if it doesn't work that way on higher levels I probably shouldn't get used to doing that, huh.

KMadCandy
Sep 01, 2007, 07:19 PM
i'm addicted to OCC. i aim for diplo or space more often than conquering the world tho. i hardly ever set out to conquer even in zillion-city games, it's not my strength. so even tho this post got way way too long, some of it may not apply to "go out and bash head" OCCs, oops.

about what level to try for your first, i'm really not sure. i find them easier than non-OCC games, when i'm playing the type that is my strength, and can go two levels higher. for my "i'm gonna beat up the world" OCCs i step down, i suck at conquering the world in the first place. but i've played a lot of OCCs and truly can't remember what it was like for my first. maybe try lower than usual? IME you'll find yourself teching faster than you usually do, but in a warmonger game being able to make units from just one city is a REAL big difference of course. they're really quick games (until you get to the late game move-a-zillion-troops-around stage) and if that level is boring and easy you'll find out fast enough i think, and can start another at a higher level when the mood strikes you.

expansive gives +3 health in vanilla but only +2 in warlords/BtS. it was one of my favorite OCC traits, however i haven't tried one in BtS. with the new national wonder that eliminates unhealthiness from population, at that point you'd not need it at all. that point comes late in the game, so i haven't actually tested out in practice whether expansive is still useful enough for long enough. related to ...

in vanilla and warlords you can build each and every national wonder in your city. in BtS you're limited to five. when you build your first one, you'll get the standard pop-up that says you can only build 2, that's a bug don't freak out. but you do have to pick and choose.

"Philosophical to get great people (I'm thinking scientists for bulbing and Engineers to build)"

i don't think like you do for GSs and GEs. if you nab pyramids and can run Rep, life is spiffy. i settle almost all GPs. exceptions i can think of are academy, bulbing maybe edu/philo and in odd cases theo. i can't remember rushing wonders intentionally with GEs (except UN going diplo). if i'm doing space and get a GE late game, sometimes rushing a wonder to deny it to them does me a world of good slowing down their spaceship building, vs the value i'd get settling him that late. but most of the game, they move in.

globe theatre, don't build it until you need it. when you run HR, happiness is a nonissue with troops sitting there, and globe adds GA points which are gonna be your least preferred GPs. even for starting golden ages, those are worthless when your empire is one city. so artists are gonna get settled or bulbed (i great work the first if it gets me resources in the 4th? ring). you are gonna have happiness issues (well, i guess unless you kill 'em all before they go emanc *giggle*), so when you do, globe rocks since your entire empire loves you forever. then trade all your happiness resources for health ones if the world permits trading (see next paragraph). prioritize easily doubled ones (granary, harbor if you're coastal) and don't forget that some happies gain health with a grocer.

i micro the trade screen more than sane people do. if somebody has a health resource to trade today, they might not tomorrow, since there are other potential customers in the world. so if i can, i trade for them now, even before i need them, so that hatty or whoever thinks of those pigs as mine. if it's before currency i'll trade my only cows or gems (pre-globe) to her or whatever, it's that important to me to have health to support population/specialists. but i'm insane and have a high tolerance for micromanaging diplomacy. which you have to do, ongoing resource trades can be dangerous since "cancel trades with the vile egyptians" demands are guaranteed to get you a -1 with one side or the other, so you have to micro watch the relationships between the AIs too. if you have scary neighbors you're not ready to fight yet, you don't want to be caught trading with their worst enemy. i'm really good at the political mind-games and making alex my attack dog etc so i feel confident handling that sort of thing. you've experienced that in normal games i know, just emphasizing that it's synergistic in OCC ... you need resources from trades more than you're used to, but those "OMG i was not ready for this right now" DoWs hurt you more too.

that diplomacy factor is part of why (finally getting around to answering one of your specific questions) ... my favorite OCC traits have been expansive, philo, and spiritual. i adore spiritual since i tend to try to stay out of wars, fight fake ones, and/or hire attack dogs to fight for me. spiritual is the best thing evah for that. also lets me swap between rep and US, and various civics to get more exp if i do have to fight. you're probably gonna conquer the world so you may not get as much out of spiritual as i do, and expansive may not be worth it any more with national park available in BtS. i really love philo. altho financial isn't totally key since most of my tech comes from specialists eventually, i have done well as Liz on deity since fin lets me tech fast early game before my city becomes uber. well, fast for deity, which still means "here this might be of use to you" gifts from the AI, but hey, i got to alpha and GLib first. lots of options out there, and listen to people far more qualified than me about the warmonger ones.

i've never played with the industrious trait in OCC, only times i've missed it are on deity when gandhi and mansa beat me to UN by 1-3 turns when my entire goal was a diplo win, my GE can't quite complete it by himself since my city isn't big enough. ind might have helped there and that sucks soooooooo bad. but hey, at least losing doesn't take more than a few hours and i don't get ranked as dan quayle.

oh yeah, great wall totally rocks for war games, even tho your cultural borders really won't be that big. the bad guys will be coming to your cultural borders, and better for you to get the bonus GG points than them. in BtS the extra spy points will be cool too i imagine. and keeping the barbs out is a godsend, keeping in mind that i'm a terrible warmonger mind you. i find great wall essential if i'm setting out to conquer the world in OCC. the barb cities are gonna pop back up as the AI cities get razed, since by definition that city being there was fogbusting the area. once you're doing your job right "bringing back the barb fog of war" in that manner, barbs will have only you to harass on a certain area of the map. that is just flat a pain in the candyass. my military troops have enemy cities to raze, i don't want the bother of barb pillaging.

monarch and lower, it's easier than you'd expect to go quite wonder-crazy in OCC (even not ind). my high-level OCCs the only world wonders i think i really truly try for there are pyramids, GLib, oracle, and hanging gardens, add in GWall if war. lower levels it's fun to go wonder crazy. several are spiffy keen, like i've even been known to build SoL! sounds bizarre but it's a specialist, yummy GM points, and denying it to the AI ;).

i try to chop as few forests in the cross as i can for health, not even including defense. i'm hyper super nitpicky about putting anything (even a road) on a tile i hope a forest will spread to, since chopping is so handy for expensive things like oxford when that time comes around. as AnaNg mentioned, i improve outside the BFC so that incoming armies will pillage that junk and give me more time to prepare. your workers will have long stretches of time with nothing to do, but you want to keep them around to fix stuff that does get pillaged during wars or sabotaged during space race, that's something to keep 'em entertained.

i do restart if i don't have at least one of iron/copper/horses by the time i've discovered the techs. it's a personal call but for me, it's no fun to have at none of the first three, particularly the one my UU needs, so i restart. and i regen at turn 0 until i get a start i like, since i only ever get the one city. i played one game with iron/copper and ivory but no ponies, turned out i had no oil and no uranium. i was never ever gonna get oil, not in OCC always war! i had war elephants around until the end, but industrialism meant i couldn't make new ones. no cavs, no gunships, i learned why mech inf take no resources thank goodness. was hysterical fun and silly.

cultural is out unless you PA with an AI, which is really really odd. i did it once but just to have done it, takes a long time and a certain kind of mood.

random note that applies to peacetime: IME the higher level you play on, the more missionaries the AI will spread to you. i had a deity game where there were zero wars, and my city ended up with all 7 religions even tho i'd only ever founded conf!!! given that some of their mishes probably failed, that's a lot of effort they expended. sure they wanted gold for their shrines, but it gave me more culture options even tho i didn't need the happiness then, i'll take it thanks! in BtS, you can now build cathedrals in OCC with just one temple, so that should add tons of culture. that wasn't an option in other versions. and trust me, on higher levels they will settle as close to you as they can get, so you will want culture. well, if you're conquering their cities as fast as they can build them, maybe they won't get so close to you *giggle*.

my latest addiction is OCC deity diplo games. i usually lose. don't try it first, i'm crazy. if i'm aiming for diplo i save my first GE forever to build UN if i'm aiming for diplo. i can't capture it if someone else builds it, and i'll never be big enough in pop to qualify, so if somebody else builds it, oops! it's my favorite lately but i'm clearly insane.

ps haha compare our sigs!

Are attacking armies on higher levels less likely to be distracted by pillaging?

helps me outside the BFC even on deity. but then again i haven't played in BtS, maybe they've changed.

Depends on what you're looking at. My Ghandi win was inspired by someone's no army game so the only military unit I ever had was my initial warrior. As that was Diplo, I focused on religions (founding and spreading) and wonders.

haha awesome!!!!

AnaNg
Sep 01, 2007, 07:53 PM
Depends on what you're looking at. My Ghandi win was inspired by someone's no army game so the only military unit I ever had was my initial warrior. As that was Diplo, I focused on religions (founding and spreading) and wonders.

haha awesome!!!!

That game was so much fun and such a cheek-clencher. The first vote failed, the second, well, everyone LOVED my one little city! (btw the cheek-clencher part came at the vote, but MANY times before the vote. Tip - if you try this, check diplomacy ratings often and generously give techs and gold to friends whose opinion has dropped a notch - even before they ask).

(second pro-tip: Civs like cash bribes/trades. Settled great prophets make your income, without military upgrades to worry about, obscene)

prestermatt
Sep 01, 2007, 08:27 PM
The National Park is another good reason to leave forests. It can be a bit tricky at first, but if you've got a lot of forests and can keep them around until biology, you'll have a very nice city in the end. The NP eliminates unhealthiness (for all practical purposes), and 10-15 forest preserves help on the happiness front as well -- no need for the Globe! Plus, you've got a great big stack of free specialists that don't count towards unhappiness. It seems like biology is a long way off, but it's not really that hard to get if you beeline to it.

The only drawback is the fact that you'll lose the coal bonus to the Ironworks (and coal plants as well). Oh, and as I mentioned, it can be a bit rough in the beginning. You need some good non-forest tiles to help you along. I had the most success in a game with about 4 flood plains, a couple of hills, and the rest forest. I think I had corn, too. All of that food allowed me to run a decent number of specialists, and my production was good because of the hills, forests, and settled prophets.

KMadCandy
Sep 01, 2007, 10:38 PM
The National Park is another good reason to leave forests. It can be a bit tricky at first, but if you've got a lot of forests and can keep them around until biology, you'll have a very nice city in the end. The NP eliminates unhealthiness (for all practical purposes), and 10-15 forest preserves help on the happiness front as well -- no need for the Globe! Plus, you've got a great big stack of free specialists that don't count towards unhappiness.

you seriously were able to leave enough forests so that their happiness let you stay in caste when everybody else was in emanc? too cool! that was my fear, that the free specialists wouldn't do much good since without globe i'd not be able to use caste.

kniteowl
Sep 02, 2007, 02:45 AM
I've never played OCC... but the 1st leader that came to my mind if I ever played OCC was Saladin.

There's chance you may never get a strategic resource so the protective trait helps alot to keep the barb and warmongers away, especially if you can beeline to Feudalism.

And Spritiual is alway good to switch to the situtation at hand and there's the resourceless UU (knight) and also the UB which allows you an 2 Priest specialist allowing you to pump out those GPP faster so you can settle them.

vicawoo
Sep 02, 2007, 05:27 AM
Environmentalism rules in OCC. Drama helps me out a lot, as even before globe theatre, 2 happy points per culture notch results in a much larger city.
If you PA, it seems it's worth it to lightbulb (works up to around education/printing press), as you'll have a tech lead that'll last until you can PA. After that it's kind of downhill.
I like temple of artemis and great lighthouse if I can get it, so much trade routes.

prestermatt
Sep 02, 2007, 07:16 AM
you seriously were able to leave enough forests so that their happiness let you stay in caste when everybody else was in emanc? too cool! that was my fear, that the free specialists wouldn't do much good since without globe i'd not be able to use caste.

You can manage if you have enough preserves. And, of course, your culture slider is about as "empty" as it can be, so it doesn't hurt you too much to raise it if necessary. I also like to play as Lincoln, who gets all the happiness bonuses from Broadway, etc. multiplied both by the mall and the broadcast tower.

You also don't need to run caste system if you don't want to. I'm pretty flexible with the kind of gp I generate, so I don't mind having my specialists spread among scientists, engineers, merchants and priests. Say 7 scientists (with obs. and Ox.), 4 merchants (gr. and mar.), 3 engineers (forge and fac.), and a priest -- that's 15 specialists right there, and none of them "wasted". Toss in some more specialist-allowing wonders/buildings, and you're in good shape. Angkor Wat is always nice, Ironworks gets you extra engineers even with the coal penalty, etc.

jungmo
Sep 02, 2007, 07:57 AM
My big question is which National Wonders I should build, seeing as I can choose only two. An obvious choice would be Ironworks, otherwise Space Race is definitely out. I was thinking that the other one should be military, but West Point or Heroic Epic?

Because it's a OCC you can build ALL the national wonders in your single city. The requirements for Oxford, wallstreet, etc, are reduced to ONE bank, ONE university, etc. Also, you can build Catherdals as well with only one temple. However, there's a little bug with the new national wonders. I think the programmers forgot to make it so that all the new national wonders (modified scotland yard, moai statues, etc.) can be build in one city, so don't be suprised if some of the wonders say you can't build it because you have reached your national wonder limit while other national wonders are avalible to build.

uberfish
Sep 02, 2007, 08:05 AM
Philosophical - pyramids - great library is the best core strategy. Settle all your early GPs with the sole exception of 1 academy. Save as much forest as possible for National Parks later, 10 or so is good.

Julian Delphiki
Sep 02, 2007, 08:09 AM
BtS has limit of 5 national wonders for OCC.

sourboy
Sep 02, 2007, 09:28 AM
5? really? That helps a lot... which 5 are recommended though?

National Park, Ironworks, Maoi?

uberfish
Sep 02, 2007, 10:13 AM
national epic, national park, oxford, ironworks, 5th as needed (often globe)

Sleepless
Sep 02, 2007, 11:23 AM
Just tried a cultural OCC and managed a win on my third attempt. First try I didn't know you had check the PA box. :lol: I did manage a diplo win though so all wasn't lost. Second attempt my city site was very poor, my planned PA vassalised to someone else so I gave that up. :(

Third attempt success. Its a good feeling when your planned PA partner starts building culture and cathederals, trying to pick the right city to plant artists in is a bit of a problem though when they are only putting out about 20 culture points in 3 cities.

There is an interesting bug in BTS where the apostolic palace awards you cities and you get to keep them. :) I just gift them straight back to their owners though it is tempting to keep them.

Finally I think any philsophical leader for the early great people is the best trait. Virtually all of these would be settled.

Cabay Jet
Sep 02, 2007, 11:37 AM
national epic, national park, oxford, ironworks, 5th as needed (often globe)
Nope, National Park + Ironworks is a bad idea, as the National Park will decrease the productivity of Ironworks by 50% due to the fact that it eliminates access to coal from the city.

Bast
Sep 02, 2007, 11:39 AM
What do you guys think about Pericles for OCC. I know the +2 :culture: won't come in handy but would be great to recreate the Age of Pericles especially if going for culture victory. :)

prestermatt
Sep 02, 2007, 01:49 PM
Nope, National Park + Ironworks is a bad idea, as the National Park will decrease the productivity of Ironworks by 50% due to the fact that it eliminates access to coal from the city.

In most cases this is probably true, but sometimes even just the 50% from iron (assuming you have it) is worth building the Ironworks. Plus, you can run extra engineers.

prestermatt
Sep 02, 2007, 01:51 PM
What do you guys think about Pericles for OCC. I know the +2 :culture: won't come in handy but would be great to recreate the Age of Pericles especially if going for culture victory. :)

I think he'd be just fine. Any philosophical leader is good, since settled great people is what drives your entire game. You also get your theater, colliseum, and library really cheap. That may not seem like much, but in an OCC every turn of production counts.

Bast
Sep 02, 2007, 10:35 PM
I think he'd be just fine. Any philosophical leader is good, since settled great people is what drives your entire game. You also get your theater, colliseum, and library really cheap. That may not seem like much, but in an OCC every turn of production counts.

Yeah I just might try it. And who needs crappy Colosseums when you can get Odeons? :lol: Then we start mining artists. :crazyeye:

Warspite2
Sep 02, 2007, 11:22 PM
One day I will try a OCC, sounds like fun especially if you win it ;)

KMadCandy
Sep 03, 2007, 09:16 AM
One day I will try a OCC, sounds like fun especially if you win it ;)

well yeah it's more fun to win than lose generally *giggle*. but one good thing about OCC games, they're quick! i can be very perfectionist micro-manager at times, and some of my normal games take forever. OCC games your empire is so small that even if i fall into that trap, it won't last 17,000 hours.

Bird Brain
Sep 03, 2007, 01:09 PM
Peter is great for OCC. Last time I did that I just settled all my great people in place and built up a monster city with around 300 hammers. I was building wonders as if they were normal buildings hehe. It's a bit of a slow start, but once you accumulate enough settled great people things spiral out of control. Representation also puts your science through the roof with so many specialists . . .

Globe Theater is an absolute must. Since you have one city you want to make sure its growth is completely unrestricted. I'd also go National Epic and Oxford for sure. Both Ironworks and National Park can be good, but as somebody else pointed out you should pick only one of them since they don't play nicely together . . . unless you have no coal I guess . . .

KMadCandy
Sep 03, 2007, 01:18 PM
Both Ironworks and National Park can be good, but as somebody else pointed out you should pick only one of them since they don't play nicely together . . . unless you have no coal I guess . . .

you might have enough production even without the coal bonus. heck, with enough settled great folks you might have enough production without IW at all. but it does let you run 3 more engineer specialists, the hardest type to have access to, that by itself can be an argument for it.

Cabay Jet
Sep 03, 2007, 03:09 PM
If your city is at the stage were a +50% production boost would be substantial imagine what another +50% could do.

Bird Brain
Sep 03, 2007, 04:09 PM
Okay, just for the heck of it I played a quick OCC game on Noble using both Ironworks and National Park, and despite losing access to my coal the combination was still quite nice. Sure I lost the coal bonus, but the extra boost to my already substantial production base was excellent.

Here is my city 1 turn before spaceship launch . . .

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc56/FeatherHeaded/Civ4ScreenShot0018.jpg

Not bad, hehe . . .

KMadCandy
Sep 03, 2007, 05:21 PM
grats! 6 settled artists tho? bummer RNG luck there.

Cabay Jet
Sep 03, 2007, 05:23 PM
Could you turn on resource tags and mouse over the hammer rate, please?

Bird Brain
Sep 03, 2007, 05:47 PM
Crap, I never did save the game while I played it, and now the auto saves are overwritten :-/. So I can't post another shot. Thinking back to the game I had access to aluminum as well as a research lab so that would be inflating my hammers on that spaceship part. No space elevator though . . . I also had Christianity as my state religion and the AP built so all my christian buildings were giving me hammers. Wish I'd been smart enough not to overwrite the saves though. . .

And yes, I got way way too many artists. I was not happy about that, but the city location and random events more than made up for it . . .

Edit: Not sure how the resource tags got turned off since I always use them. I know I had aluminum, cows, 2 spices which I never used since I wanted to save the forests, copper which appeared in an empty mine (lucky), and marble . . . This wasn't my starting location and at first I thought maybe I'd made a mistake by moving, but as more and more resources started popping up around me I realized just how good a location it was.

Cabay Jet
Sep 03, 2007, 05:51 PM
You never saved the game while you played it?

Nasty habit. Oh well...

Bird Brain
Sep 03, 2007, 06:05 PM
You never saved the game while you played it?

Nasty habit. Oh well...

I usually do, but I just played this one in one sitting this afternoon after seeing this thread and never bothered. Then I started another game and overwrote the autosaves. Stupid me . . . :wallbash:

Cam_H
Sep 03, 2007, 06:09 PM
Re. National Park and Aluminium Inc.

I just played my first two OCCs in Civ4 in Beyond the Sword (both Bismark) - another view on the National Park ...

... In both games I didn't 'pop' any Aluminium in my borders but in both I did have Coal outside of the fat-X, however on the second game I opted not to go with the National Park and instead founded Aluminium Inc (Rocketry) - giving me a 'fully operative' Ironworks and access to Aluminium just when I needed a fast-build Apollo Program. I endured some health constraints, and ended up going after Medicine (Sid's Sushi, Hospital) a lot sooner than I would in a traditional game.

(Very handy post #7 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5900334&postcount=7) KMad - thanks- nice to see you back :))

Harbourboy
Sep 03, 2007, 06:29 PM
Expansive is the best OCC trait because you can never find enough health resources. That makes Peter a great option, so long as you have some horses in your borders, for Cossack filled mayhem.

popejubal
Sep 03, 2007, 06:45 PM
Okay, just for the heck of it I played a quick OCC game on Noble using both Ironworks and National Park, and despite losing access to my coal the combination was still quite nice. Sure I lost the coal bonus, but the extra boost to my already substantial production base was excellent.


Losing Coal bought you 3 fewer :p points and National Park's "no :p from population" dropped another 24 :p points. That's a grand total of 27 :p that you didn't have to worry about, or another 11-12 population that you got to run NOT COUNTING the free specialists that you got from the National Park. With the National Park's free specialists from Forest Preserves, you picked up another 7 specialists for a total of 18-19 extra real population in your city.

I'd say that an extra 18-19 population is worth dropping from x3 production to x2.5 production in your only city. :eek:


Expansive is garbage. Just build the National Park in your city and suddenly :health: is just as irrelevant as :) is with Globe Theater.

Bird Brain
Sep 03, 2007, 07:14 PM
Losing Coal bought you 3 fewer :p points and National Park's "no :p from population" dropped another 24 :p points. That's a grand total of 27 :p that you didn't have to worry about, or another 11-12 population that you got to run NOT COUNTING the free specialists that you got from the National Park. With the National Park's free specialists from Forest Preserves, you picked up another 7 specialists for a total of 18-19 extra real population in your city.

I'd say that an extra 18-19 population is worth dropping from x3 production to x2.5 production in your only city. :eek:


Expansive is garbage. Just build the National Park in your city and suddenly :health: is just as irrelevant as :) is with Globe Theater.

Indeed. I suppose Peter is not as good an OCC leader as I thought. My thinking before was that his expansive trait helped to remove one of the two constraints on your city growth (with happiness taken care of by the Globe of course). However, National Park cuts unhealthiness by such an absurd amount that the +2 bonus from expansive just goes to waste.

I did like getting two more scientists from Peter's UB, though the lab does come pretty late . . .

KMadCandy
Sep 03, 2007, 08:21 PM
With the National Park's free specialists from Forest Preserves, you picked up another 7 specialists for a total of 18-19 extra real population in your city.

I'd say that an extra 18-19 population is worth dropping from x3 production to x2.5 production in your only city. :eek:

Expansive is garbage. Just build the National Park in your city and suddenly :health: is just as irrelevant as :) is with Globe Theater.

well but you can't really get that extra population in OCC. unless maybe you have sid's sushi and the AI really will trade you that much fish? he had room for 14 more people than he could feed!

(Very handy post #7 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=5900334&postcount=7) KMad - thanks- nice to see you back :))
why thank you! as you can see, being gone so long didn't help me with my "typing too much" problem at all *giggle*

prestermatt
Sep 03, 2007, 09:11 PM
Expansive is garbage. Just build the National Park in your city and suddenly :health: is just as irrelevant as :) is with Globe Theater.

As a huge fan of the National Park, I generally agree, but sometimes you can manage without it and free up space for another useful wonder. If you don't have many forests to give you specialists, is it really worth it?

Harbourboy
Sep 04, 2007, 12:19 AM
There is no National Park for those of us who don't have BtS installed yet........

KMadCandy
Sep 04, 2007, 12:43 AM
ah, but if you're playing vanilla or warlords you don't have to limit your national wonder choices either, so you're lucky that way :)

Bird Brain
Sep 04, 2007, 10:43 AM
That's partly why I was advocating Peter before since his health bonus really was useful in vanilla OCC. Like everybody else I'm still getting used to BTS . . .

So who is the best leader for OCC then? I'm thinking Philosophical is a must . . . To me Charismatic, Expansive, Aggressive, Creative, Imperialistic, Financial, Organized, and maybe Protective all seem rather useless. So that just leaves Gandhi . . . Or am I missing somebody?

Still, with OCC I don't switch civics very much. I pretty much stay with Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism . . . In vanilla I used to take Environmentalism, but it doesn't seem needed now, does it? It seems like Mercantilism would be best now since you're not going to be having many trade routes anyway.

Bast
Sep 04, 2007, 10:50 AM
So who is the best leader for OCC then? I'm thinking Philosophical is a must . . . To me Charismatic, Expansive, Aggressive, Creative, Imperialistic, Financial, Organized, and maybe Protective all seem rather useless. So that just leaves Gandhi . . . Or am I missing somebody?


Yes because there's no philosophical/industrious. So you're pretty much advocating Gandhi or else for OCC. :lol: :crazyeye:

I think yes Gandhi is probably the best. But other philosophical leaders can work too. All militaristic ones are out especially imperialistic. :lol:

Peter (philosphical,expansive), obviously.
Pericles (philosophical, creative), ok so the +2 :culture: sucks but he does get cheap theatre, library and odeon. I guess it's got to count for something.
Elizabeth and Frederick are the other possibilities.

So it's

1. Gandhi
2. Peter
3. Take a pick: Pericles, Elizabeth and Frederick. That's it.

tboner23
Sep 04, 2007, 12:47 PM
I though Louis was Phil/Ind... or is it Ind/Cre?

KMadCandy
Sep 04, 2007, 01:09 PM
Still, with OCC I don't switch civics very much. I pretty much stay with Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, and Pacifism . . . In vanilla I used to take Environmentalism, but it doesn't seem needed now, does it? It seems like Mercantilism would be best now since you're not going to be having many trade routes anyway.

mercantilism ... are you planning to be always at war? if my OCC is coastal with harbor, the trade routes are a serious portion of my commerce. one free specialist wouldn't nearly make up for the loss of that. in fact, when the other guys start swapping to merc, i watch and pray for them to get close to econ so that they'll swap to FM. but maybe that's different in BtS, since looks like the screenshot was in merc? i dunno, haven't done it myself yet.

spiritual is pretty much my number 1 favorite trait for anything, so i'm completely biased. but even in OCC, where i don't tend to change civics very much, it gives me the freedom to cave in to demands to change civics or state religions, which can be a lifesaver if you're as bad at fighting actual wars as i am! but i'm totally biased there. if you don't get any use out of spiritual ever in any game, you probably won't here either. like any trait, it's one you have to develop a style with i suppose.

Julian Delphiki
Sep 04, 2007, 01:09 PM
I though Louis was Phil/Ind... or is it Ind/Cre?

Latter.

10ch.

Bhruic
Sep 04, 2007, 01:16 PM
In vanilla I used to take Environmentalism, but it doesn't seem needed now, does it? It seems like Mercantilism would be best now since you're not going to be having many trade routes anyway.

Environmentalism is still pretty valuable. Assuming you did the "save the forests" route, it'll give you +2:commerce: per forest preserve, which'll give you more than any single GP will. Plus, if you didn't build the National Park, it'll give you some more :health: bonuses, which you'll likely need.

Bh

popejubal
Sep 04, 2007, 04:07 PM
With the National Park's free specialists from Forest Preserves, you picked up another 7 specialists for a total of 18-19 extra real population in your city.

I'd say that an extra 18-19 population is worth dropping from x3 production to x2.5 production in your only city.

Expansive is garbage. Just build the National Park in your city and suddenly is just as irrelevant as is with Globe Theater.


well but you can't really get that extra population in OCC. unless maybe you have sid's sushi and the AI really will trade you that much fish? he had room for 14 more people than he could feed!


You can, indeed get that extra population in OCC... and he did get exactly that in this particular game. Except for the one tiny mistake I made... :mischief:


Without the National Park, each person would have consumed 2 food and produced 1 pollution. He gets away with not having 2-4 pollution from coal because National Park eats coal for breakfast.

Since he has 14 :p from non-population sources, he has 14 :health: remaining until he runs out. That puts him at 14 population consuming 28 food and breaking even on health.

Each person beyond 14 consumes 3 food. 2 food is consumed by the citizen and 1 food is consumed by the :p that the citizen adds. That means the extra 20 food he has will "fund" an extra 6 people. He ends up with 14+6=20 people without National Park. If he has Coal, that becomes 14+5 = 19 people without National Park

With National Park, he ends up with 24 + 7 = 31 people. That's 12 more people with National Park than without (if he has coal).

It's not the 18 or 19 that I had originally claimed because I somehow thought that he would have 0 more people than the 14 where he breaks even on :health: vs. :p.

This difference becomes even more significant with more food (and also with more significant with more pollution) because the 2 food per person for National Park continues to compare with the 3 food per person without National Park.

KMadCandy
Sep 04, 2007, 04:14 PM
You can, indeed get that extra population in OCC... and he did get exactly that in this particular game.

i'm still not seeing your point. i'm sorry, i'm honestly confused. look at his screenshot, he does not have food to feed anybody else. he has health room for 14 more people but that spare health is doing him no good because he cannot get that extra food to turn it into population is what i mean.

uberfish
Sep 04, 2007, 04:39 PM
Forest preserve + environmentalism + national park = 3 (food or hammers) + 2c + 1 representation specialist, which is the best output in the game you can get from a tile. If you're going into the late game you definitely want national park.

I generally pick Liz, just to get the bonus commerce from any cottages I build early and Financial is useful in the late game with +1c per Environmentalist forest preserve.

popejubal
Sep 04, 2007, 04:51 PM
i'm still not seeing your point. i'm sorry, i'm honestly confused. look at his screenshot, he does not have food to feed anybody else. he has health room for 14 more people but that spare health is doing him no good because he cannot get that extra food to turn it into population is what i mean.

The spare health that he has is irrelevant. He could have 4800 population instead of 48 population and he would still have 14 pollution.

What is relevant is that each person is costing him 2 food.

If he had to worry about people producing pollution, each of the first 14 people (assuming he has no coal) would cost 2 food, but each person after the first 14 costs 3 food. That's because he breaks even on :health: vs. :p at 14 people.

Since he has 48 food available, the first 14 people would cost him 28 food. He'll have 20 food left. That remaining 20 food can only support 6 people since these people consume 3 food each. That's a total of 20 "normal" people in the city.

If he has access to Coal, I believe he'll only get 19 people since I believe Coal produces 4 :p on its own. If Coal produces 2 :p on its own, then he'll still be able to support all 20 people that he can without.

With the National Park, he can support all 24 people that he (obviously) has in his city. He also gets an additional 7 free specialists which brings him to a total of 31 real population (rather than his listed 24).


I'm not saying that he could support even more people than he has now. He obviously doesn't have enough food for that. What I'm saying is that he can support a lot more people now (his total of 31 real population) than he could support if he did not have the National Park.

With National Park (see screenshot): 24 "normal" people + 7 free = 31 total.
Without Nat. Park: 20 total people.

McGoo
Sep 10, 2007, 02:46 PM
I am finishing up a game (Warlords) with Brennus. I did a feudalism slingshot and had Longbowman by 1250BC. With those I went out and beat up on Shaka. Rounded out my techs by Suing once for peace and then 10 years latter finished him off (by now I had my Celtic Warriers and Cats). I got 3 workers from him (never had to build my own.

I didn't know have useful Charismatic would be, but with generally fewer units those extra promotions come in handy. And with the early war, I had several 6th level units so I didn't have to use any GG's to get West Point.

At this point in the game (1950AD) I just started building my tanks and am about to go medieval on Toku. He's got tons of Cavs I will need to get though, but I am pumping out a level 6 tank every turn. I am giving most of the formation and first strike as much as possible, but some I am making commandos.

Stuff I have learned...
early war is good. allows herioc epic and west point...and all those CR4 swordwmen become CR4 rifles/inf/mech inf.

When/if wiping out an AI, pillage everything you can. You are creating open space for another AI...don't give them the advantage of existing improvements.

Use those traits...I could have more wisely switched back and forth between civics to help my cause. Swich to Vass/Theo when building units, etc.

The Feud slingshot seemed to work well at least this time. One nice thing about it is that you do not require special resources and the longbows make good defenders or (early) attackers with the right promotions. Give them cover and FS and they do very well against archer defenders.

Another mistake I have made is playing on too big of map. Smaller maps tend to concentrate resources more and limits the AI's.