Has anyone else noticed that the Space Elevator has become, essentially, pointless to a space race win in BtS?

In vanilla and Warlords, Computers enabled Laboratories for faster SS part building. Computers, in turn, led to both Genetics and Robotics. You needed both for space ship parts, and the latter enabled the Space Elevator (though they added the Satellites as another SE requirement in Warlords, as I recall).

Now you can bypass Computers and Robotics altogether. And, indeed, why would you bother with either of them? Computers only enables the Internet, which you only need if you're desperate; it also obsoletes not one, not two, but three wonders, and some darned nice ones at that. And while researching Robotics to build the SE would save you time, if time is an issue, are you really going to take several turns to research a tech that no longer green lights any space ship parts? If, on the other hand, you can afford to research these techs, do you really need them?

Maybe I'm just not going about things in the right order for a space ship win in BtS, but this change to the tech tree isn't making sense to me.

I have also stopped building the space elevator and I have been skipping computers and robotics in my BTS space race games. Note that if you skip computers then you must research laser in order to get to fiber optics, so you don't really save any time by skipping computers. Robotics, however, is completely useless for space race except for the space elevator. The space elevator does help a little, but not much. This is partly because you have to take one production city away from building space ship parts in order build the Space elevator, and partly because you are usually already done with a lot of the spaceship by the time you complete the elevator.

Even so, the main reason that makes the space elevator useless is the way production bonuses are added in civ4. If you are building a spaceship part in a city that has:

Ironworks (+100%)
Forge/factory/power(+100%)
Access to resource that speeds part (+100%)
Laboratory (+50%)

Then you already have +350% to building your part. Space elevator only adds another 50%. Assuming your main production city has a base production of 100 (which is quite obtainable in BTS during a golden age), then the space elevator would increase your production from 450/turn to 500/turn, which is only an 11% increase in production. This more often than not won't save you a turn on the production of your part.

So, is the space elevator worth building if you have an extra production city, or if you have some great engineers or cash lying around? Sure. But is it worth taking 5 or so turns to research robotics? Not at all.

Notably, the Elevator can be rushed, so it is a backdoor rushing tool for SS parts. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Isn't that supposed to be the case with all wonders? Why should the Space Elevator be an always-build-if-you-can-get-it?

Maybe it should grant some additional non space race benefits.

Notably, the Elevator can be rushed, so it is a backdoor rushing tool for SS parts. Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. Isn't that supposed to be the case with all wonders? Why should the Space Elevator be an always-build-if-you-can-get-it?

Maybe it should grant some additional non space race benefits.


Note you need to burn 2 GE on the space elevator. The 50% hardly helps you in terms of building spaceship parts. This wonder should cause less (only burn 1 GE) and becomes available earlier. To be fair, every nation should be able to build their own space elevator.

I think that Space elevator appears too late. Espececially the tech path that generally I take. I build most space ship parts before I am able to build the Space elevator.

Computers only enables the Internet, which you only need if you're desperate; it also obsoletes not one, not two, but three wonders, and some darned nice ones at that.

I've also noticed that. Angkor Wat is very nice wonder, and if you have much Priest specialists, and a lot of production-multiplying buildings in all cities, I think it may give even more production bonus than The Space Elevator.

And if you have strong state religon, University of Sankore nicely boosts your research even in late game as well as gives better Great Scientist odds, and for those using Universal Suffrage, The Spiral Minaret can give the money they need to rush buildings and settlers to maximize the score.

I agree with Sisiutil. I mostly built the Elevator in my pre-BTS space races, but with BTS there isn't much reason to do so. I also generally don't research computers any more if I've got one or more of the wonders that get obsoleted. Currently, Computers is an optional tech with several bad effects and not a single positive one. This could be designed better, I think.

for the Elevator to be worthwhile it should be +250% to Spaceship parts
(giving a total of 600% from 350% or 7/4.5 so about a 55% increase)

In any case it seems like computers and robotics have become the military techs (required for MInf, MArmor, Stealth units, and Missile Cruisers.)

What I would suggest is that the Internet also give a +50% commerce to all civs with the Computer tech... making it worthwhile to build, even if you are not behind, and more importantly making Computers worthwhile to research.

add on a +250% from the Space Elevator and the pathway becomes worthwhile

You now need Superconductors to be able to build Laboratories which add 50% of base production to SS parts construction. But by the time I have researched Super's I have already made several SS parts and have others partly done, and it simply is not worth the time to build Labs just to slightly reduce building time for the remaining SS parts: better to go straight for parts production. Nor is the 25% base science worthwhile: instead, switch production to Research in those cities not busy on the SS, which will normally generate more flasks during the relatively short time until the ship is ready. So if going for a Space victory I avoid Computers and Labs.; although Laser costs a few more flasks than Computers, the loss of three wonders does not happen.

or perhaps the spaceship requires more parts to make the elevator worthwhile.

You now need Superconductors to be able to build Laboratories which add 50% of base production to SS parts construction. But by the time I have researched Super's I have already made several SS parts and have others partly done, and it simply is not worth the time to build Labs just to slightly reduce building time for the remaining SS parts: better to go straight for parts production. Nor is the 25% base science worthwhile: instead, switch production to Research in those cities not busy on the SS, which will normally generate more flasks during the relatively short time until the ship is ready. So if going for a Space victory I avoid Computers and Labs.; although Laser costs a few more flasks than Computers, the loss of three wonders does not happen.

Yes, the placing of Labratories now makes it almost useless.... and not utilized, pre-BTS I would find myself building labratories quite often because I had not even begun building parts yet. Now, by the time labs come, I probably have finished the casings and some other parts (probably totalling almost 10, so labs are not a time and hammer worthy investment).

It all depends on how the game develops. I have sometimes build all/alot of Laboratories before most spaceparts. Once I have finished the Space Elevator before appr. half of the spaceparts was finished but I can admit that all this is with BtW all exceptions.

I have built (and got any use off) the Internet once only. I usually are in the lead (tech) so I usually build the Internet so nobody else does.

It all depends on how the game develops. I have sometimes build all/alot of Laboratories before most spaceparts. Once I have finished the Space Elevator before appr. half of the spaceparts was finished but I can admit that all this is with BtW all exceptions.

I have built (and got any use off) the Internet once only. I usually are in the lead (tech) so I usually build the Internet so nobody else does.

Heh, contrary to what I said before, it seems in my current game in which I am only "within the pack" in the tech race and it is early modern now, I will find myself building labratories early to get the edge need to win this extremely tight race (something like 7 civs are looking to contend in the space race and about 4 are beating me in terms of land size and production - soon to change :mischief: )

I agree that the Space Elevator is lackluster in its benefit. I disagree about the Internet.

OK, if you're trying to avoid Computers, then you won't go for the Internet. Otherwise, the Internet can be built earlier than in Vanilla/Warlords, with more techs following afterward. In a race that I'm not completely dominating tech-wise (all of them to date), the Internet helps me pick up a couple useful techs along the way to launch.

I find myself working on defenses and research while building up my spaceship-building infrastructure (including Laboratories), then build/launch in a compressed timeframe.

Yes, the placing of Labratories now makes it almost useless.... and not utilized, pre-BTS I would find myself building labratories quite often because I had not even begun building parts yet. Now, by the time labs come, I probably have finished the casings and some other parts (probably totalling almost 10, so labs are not a time and hammer worthy investment).

It depends on the route you take through the tech tree. Physics is now much more important to research early thanks to airships. Electricity is a valuable tech now the "hits" resources are more useful, and the souped up supermarkets of refrigeration are also worth going for with the greater health problems (let alone if you have the misfortune to miss Sushi). I often find I end up with superconductors rather early (before much of the Artillery/Rocketry part of the tree), and find the extra boost from early labs to be quite handy.

I agree that you could skip the elevator and the computer/robotics techs. Admittedly you'd have to go via the Laser to reach fibre optics, but the tech is only fractionally more expensive, and avoids the obsolescence of three wonders. The Internet is not an incentive for going for computers. While it's not that unusual for there to be one other civ at a comparable point in the tech tree, it is very rare to see two. Particularly given the Internet can't be rushed, I've never actually got anything worth having from it. I think I got advanced flight about two turns from the end once, but that's it.

It all boils down to what the limiting factor is on the launch. I usually find it to be getting to fusion and completing the engines, and the elevator may shave a few turns off that. It just depends if you can get Robotics from somewhere other than research (e.g. espionage).