Just curious which wonders, both world and national, that people consider "must have".

I'm learning the basics still, and so my difficulty level doesn't require me to build wonders... I'm trying to understand the game so I can look at each wonder and say "yeah that will help me" or "waste of time". There's a few that interest me, but I've not considered all options yet.

The Great Library is the only wonder I strive for in every game.

Stonehenge if you're playing a Charismatic leader.

ALL OF THEM!!!

Ahhh hmmm.... sorry, builder's voice took over! :D

I play about 50% of my games wonder-heavy, which can be done even on higher levels with a lot of focus on it.

Key ones for me - obviously depending on the situation

Pyramids, G Library, Sistine, Statue of Zeus, Statue of Liberty, Taj Mahal.... later wonders I tend to be able to snatch up because I play production heavy -these are the ones I need to compete for!

I try not to depend on any wonder every game. Sometimes I will go for the Pyramids, sometimes I'll go for the Oracle, but I don't always go for the same wonders because I don't like to be wonder dependent. But I don't build too many wonders as it is, though I have no problem conquering them.

There are a few wonders that I never build, but I'll sometimes go out of my way to conquer. The Pyramids are the early wonder like this, but I also love to take the Mausoleum of Maus... (sp?) or the Cristo Redentor.

The AP. It's so powerful it feels like an exploit, if you spread your religion right, you can control a religious block that wars together, allowing you to conquer all, with relatively no diplo hits you care about.

I usually go after the Oracle, Great Library and Spiral Minaret. The last is a huge help financially if you have a religion.

Depends what strategy you're going for of course....

Pyramids are always great to have, although some times it can be better to just conquer them, rather than build them, still hat said i oten build them, (running representation is SUCH a shot in the arm.

I ALWAYS go for the Great Library, it's a fantastic boost, and will be giving you GSs like...er...a lot.

If I'm going for a cultural victory I might work a temple exploist, e.g Sistine Chapel, University of Sankour, Spiral Minaret, Apostolic Palace, (all that gives eash temple 1 happines, 5 culture, 2 production, 2 research, 2 gold), that works well if you're spiritual and you can build them quick and fast.

Oracle is fantastic to build early. Statue of Liberty is ACE, that's why the AI rarely trades techs on the way to it....

The cristo Redentor is really good, i really recommend it, as is the effiel tower, oh and the Three Gorgeres Dam.

TBH it really depends on your playstyle, if you're peaceful there's no point going for the Pentagon, but if you run a massiv military empire it's essential (well not essentiall but really usefull.)

AS far as National Wonders go the Globe Theater and National WOnder are fantastic, no game goes by when I don't build them.

I'm something of an obbsesie builder, (which I'm no weening myself of in BTS, or i get wiped out by the Physcho AI.)

I definitely go for The Pyramids and/or The Hanging Gardens. Neither for their effect, necessarily, so much as for the Great Engineer points they generate.

Other than that, and I realize I play wonder-heavy, I go for:
Great Wall--Ignore barbarians, get more Generals.
Great Library--Research is always good.
Apostalic Palace--Ensure it'll be in my religion, so I benefit from the hammers.
Statue of Liberty--Obvious.
Pentagon--Also obvious.

I try not to depend on any wonder every game. Sometimes I will go for the Pyramids, sometimes I'll go for the Oracle, but I don't always go for the same wonders because I don't like to be wonder dependent. But I don't build too many wonders as it is, though I have no problem conquering them.

Huzzah, the voice of sanity beckons!

The one reason why I don't care for a specialist economy is because it is quite wonder-dependent (Pyramids for Representation). I tend to build a few wonders based on what resources I have...if I have stone, then I'll go for wonders that build faster with stone. Same with marble, and the more exotic resources (Colossus with copper, Statue of Zeus with ivory, S. Paya with gold).

If I had to pick my favorite early on, I'd say the Oracle for free tech. However, I don't even research the Mysticism path in half my games (I'll trade for it while focusing on other techs). Besides, if you miss your favorite wonder, then the game is ruined for you. Don't depend on wonders, then you'll still be good to go.

Any wonder that give GProphet points for my religion, so I can cash in a bit more money. For this Stonehenge isnt bad, adds culture; ergo a better city-defence in the beginning. After that, its purely how the game evolves... not one game is as the previous.

I'm usually a Wonder Whore, but a few key ones for me are the Pyramids, the Oracle and if i'm behind in tech, the Internet's a must.

Early Game: Statue of Zeus (I play Aggressive AI so there's usually a whole lot of fighting going on - the war weariness you get when fighting a civ with Zeus is brutal, so best to own it yourself).

Late Game: Cristo Redentor (being able to change one or more civics every turn is awesome (eg Police State for war, Universal Sufferage for peace) - I'll even incur the wrath of the UN if there's a motion to take away my favourite civics).

I like the Statue of Zeus myself; it is a neat idea for a wonder.

I typically don't reach the Modern Age in my games (or, if I do, it's almost over), so I've never seen the Cristo Redentor in action, nor have I built the Internet in but a few games.

Must have wonders? None. :D

I rarely build any wonders without having the resource which hastens their construction such as stone for Pyramids or Marble for Parthenon or not being industrious. Too much hammer investment if you are without the resources or industrious trait.

I don't build many Ancient/Classical wonders at all now. I used to have a slight obsession with the Oracle and the CS slingshot in Vanilla, and I'm probably a bit too fond of the Great Lighthouse on coastal starts. BtS has even killed my GL addiction. I've been trying a few games at the next level up in the last couple of days and I barely get a chance at most of the really early wonders anyway, unless I'm really aiming for just 1 of them. Seeing the Pyramids being built in 1500BC is a new experience for me.:(

After the Medieval Age I'll build more because 1 less production city isn't as much of an issue by then. I normally try to get most of the more useful ones, but particularly the AP, Taj Mahal, SoL and the Pentagon.

Very dependant on your play style. If you're going for an aggressive approach, build as little wonders as possible -- you'll get them once you conquer enemy cities.

But there are a few excellent ones that suit almost any style of play, IMHO. The Pyramids are an obvious choice, together with The Oracle, the brand new Statue of Zeus is also very useful. Parthenon and Great Library are good as well. Then it largely depends on your strategy I suppose.

Seeing as I play an SE in the majority of games, the Pyramids is a "must have" so as to get Representation much earlier than you otherwise would have done. Also it gives you great Engineers who can rush other wonders!

I also like
-Statue of Zeus
-Parthenon
-Apostolic Palace (to stop the AI from cheesing an early victory)

Everything else is pretty much optional to me.

Oracle, Taj Mahal, SoL, and Versailles are top priorities for me. I'm a wonder whore, so it was tough narrowing it down.

I've always wondered how to build an axe-rush, so now I find myself always building it.
But no matter how hard I try I can't shake the wonder habit.
So for me as far as the early wonders go it depends on resources most of the time Pyramids are nice but are expensive, I very rarely go down the religious path so Oracle is usually out. Stonehenge is really good if you Charismatic and it's cheap. Great Library is great.
Once I'm into the Medieval age I pretty much try and get every wonder except Divine Right enabled wonders as I'm always beaten to that and don't see the point in trading for it.
Oh yeah must have Taj Mahal :) I'm a sucker for that wonder.

I go for everything possible but must have...

Great Wall, Pyramids, Oracle, Statue of Zeus, Stonehenge(saves me time instead of making Monuments i can make troops) the rest I get so the AI dont get.

Great Wall becoming a source of Great Spy points really made me sad... Time was I could have Great Wall, Pyramids, and Hanging Gardens in my capitol, then I knew I had the rest of the game in my pocket--Any wonder I wanted, eventually a Great Engineer would pop up.... Funny thing, in Warlords none of those were essential, in fact the effects they give are all relatively minor (Barbarians aren't as scary as I used to think, and I can live easily enough without Pyramids, and Hanging Garden? Pfft...) but the GPP... Oh, the wonderful GPP...

As others have said, there are no 'must have' wonders, as you can do well without them, though they're all nice to have!

Something posters forget to mention, though, is that map size has a lot to do with their value. If you decide to build a wonder on a small map, you're devoting a large amount of your total civilization's resources to build 1 thing. On a huge map, you're devoting much less of your civilization's resources (because you have many more cities, but you're still only devoting 1 city's output to the wonder). So the opportunity cost of every wonder goes down as the size of the map increases.

Conversely, most wonders affect every city in your civilization, or every city on your continent, so the benefit of most wonders is proportionally the same as you increase the size of your map. Thus, with most wonders, you're spending less of your total output for the same benefits when your map size increases!

As an example, let's consider the 'average' civ size the number of cities a civilization needs to build 3 cathedrals (a key threshold for culture victories). Then an 'average' civilization on small maps is 6 cities, and on huge maps it's 12 cities. Let's consider the Spiral Minaret. To do the math with real numbers, we'll say your 'average' city is producing 20 hammers per turn and has a monastery and church. We'll also say you've already built 3 cathedrals.

So, on a small map, your 6 cities are producing 120 hammers per turn. So the 550 hammers to produce the Spiral Minaret represent 4.58 turns of output of your entire civilization. On a large map, your 12 cities are producing 240 hammers per turn, so the Spiral Minaret represents 2.29 turns of output of your entire civilization. It's opportunity cost is cut in half!

But what about the benefits? On a small map, you have 15 religious buildings, so you get 30 gold per turn before multipliers. That's 5 gold per city per turn. On a large map, you have 27 religious buildings, so that's 54 gold per turn before multipliers. That comes out to 4.5 gold per turn. (Note, the only reason they're not exact is because you can have more cathedrals per city on small maps...if you were to take a wonder like the Hanging Gardens, the 2 numbers would be equal).

So on small maps, you're devoting 4.58 turns of production to get 5 gold per turn (before multipliers) per city, while on huge maps, you're devoting 2.29 turns of production to get 4.5 gold per turn (before multipliers) per city. It's a much better deal on bigger maps!

Another way to look at it is this. You're spending 550 total hammers for 30 raw gold per turn on small maps. You're spending the same 550 total hammers for 54 raw gold per turn on huge maps.

This reasoning works with most wonders. I like to play on huge maps, and don't generally launch offensive wars, so I tend to try and build wonders in 1 city, occasionally using a 2nd or 3rd when there are multiple ones I want. On a huge map, I still have plenty of cities to focus on military units and developing my economy. When I play smaller maps (which is rare, because I find I simply don't enjoy it as much) I have to remind myself to only go for only an occasional wonder, because your economy or military production will suffer.

It's worth pointing out that there are a few wonders that increase in power on smaller maps. Any wonder that focuses it's affects on 1 city is going to have a bigger effect on smaller maps because you have fewer cities. Most of these wonders are national wonders, however. World Wonders that only affect one city include the Temple of Artemis and the Great Library. Now, both of those are nice to have on large maps (the Great Library is actually great to have on large maps), but they're even nicer to have on small maps, because the benefits are better! I also think Great People are slightly stronger the smaller map you play on, so I believe the Parthenon gives slightly stronger benefits on smaller maps

--------------------------------

Anyway, the above is just a remark to remember when you evaluate what people say on this thread. Few people mention what map size they play at when they respond to threads like this, despite the fact that its an important fact to consider.

As I said, I generally play on huge maps, and the Wonders that have the best benefits for me are probably Pyramids, Parthenon, Apostolic Palace, Christo Redentor, 3 Gorges Dam, and the Space Elevator.

Pyramids- early representation is really nice, and the Great Engineer GP points are nice. I get this maybe half my games
Parthenon- more Great people are really nice, but I usually don't focus on the tech, so I don't get it too often.
Apostolic Palace-can be mostly a non-factor in the game, but even then it gives you 2-6 hammers per city before multipliers!. Other times it can drastically affect the outcome of the game, affecting wars and trading relationships. Again, I don't generally focus on the tech, so I don't get it too often, but its one of the few early wonders I'll use a Great Engineer if one pops out around the time I get the tech. (I generally settle early GE's to increase my chance of getting more late game wonders, even though I might miss out on some of the big early ones).
Christo Redentor-very very powerful. And the AI seems to prioritize it last among the 3 wonders that come with it's tech, so I think I've gotten it each of the BTS games I've played so far that have gone that long!
3 Gorges Dam- If your cities are focused on one continent, it gives you less polluting energy to a lot of cities. Not something I'd probably recommend on smaller maps
Space Elevator- going for space victories, it gives you a nice boost. On a large map, you can just about build every spaceship part simultaneously in a separate city. So it's worthwhile to rush to the 2 tech requirements for this wonder before going back to get all the other techs needed to build your spaceships parts. Remember, you can't use great engineers to hurry spaceship parts or the internet, but you can use your great engineers to rush this! So once the corporations are founded and the space race starts, this is what your great engineers should be saved for (it takes 2 great engineers, and even then you still have to add more hammers). Once it's built, use other spare great people to start a golden age if you can to rush through your space ship production.

I don't go out especially to get any Wonders as such, I play almost everything on random so every game I have no idea what is out there.

One Wonder I did like was the Big Stone Heads can't remeber the name but it was built in a city on a small finger of land with 1 plains and 1 hill tile with 1 fish.

Turned out to be a great little city once the BSH were completed along with the lighthouse grew steadily with no requirement for any improvement and had good trade and production.

One Wonder I did like was the Big Stone Heads can't remeber the name but it was built in a city on a small finger of land with 1 plains and 1 hill tile with 1 fish.

Thats a national wonder called Moai Statues, and can always be built ;)

For me when i play Victoria with my usual stragey (which i have a hard time getting rid of), i aim to chop stonehenge asap to get the free monument in all my cities. Saves time so you can build more important stuff there earlier.

Then i usually try to build the pyramids in my production city, but mostly because of the Engineer points it generates, i'll manage without them.

Then i research towards Theology, and start building The Oracle as soon as there is only one prereq tech left before i can research it (theology that is). Time it so the research completes a turn or two before The Oracle, and whoop, pick Theology for free when The Oracle is completed. This will always make me found Christianity, and i switch to Theocracy immidately.

Usually after building those two, i tend to be more flexible and not dependant on any other wonders, but i always try to get The Hanging Gardens, Mausoleum of Maussollos, Taj Mahal and The Pentagon. These are wonders i can pop a great engineer to complete.

If i can get any other wonders, its just a bonus, but i wont do any special efforts to get them :)

The only 'must have' wonder in my games is the Pyramids; and if I don't build it then I will crush whoever did build it in order to capture it.

Running representation early in a game is a real eye opener.

Another wonder I like to get is the sistine chapel if I am playing with a non creative(?) leader, this gives each specialist 2 culture points.

No priorities for Rock n' Roll, Broadway, and Hollywood?

I think these take precidence over every other late game wonder...except for maybe Three Gorges Dam.

With corporations, the ability to dole out your hit musicals, songs, and movies to get more resources for your corporations is just absolute bank in every regard. 18 extra resources for your corporations.

Which other wonders to build depends on how the game goes. The pyramids are nice to have, but I rarely get them, without stone the Pyramids is a retarded venture. I'd rather get axemen and take care of a rowdy neighbor who'll be a problem if I build the Pyramids. I don't even really consider the Oracle a must have anymore, unless I can lightbulb metal casting. To me, the best advantage for Stonehenge is simply getting it wicked early, founding a religion, and getting your Great Prophet extra early and get the extra gold from the shrine.

The Great Library is a must to me, this is probably the only wonder I will go after regardless of circumstance.

I am also a big fan of the Spiral Minarette as well. It can really allow you to afford further expansion, or increase the research bar depending on your priorities. A capital with a religious shrine, SM, market, and a bank, is just great.

Great Wall is a MUST HAVE for teamer games on multiplayer.

why?

Increased chance of Great general alone is just awesome.

And you first great person is likely to be a great spy. Perfect for scouting enemy territory. i think it's a sin for those who waste it on something like "infilttrate enmy city"

I like The 'Mids, Oracle and Great Library, AP is powerful but the only game I had it, I was only able to spread my faith to one AI, against my will, and I was at war with him the entire game, not much to do there...

Later on, I dunno, I have a idiosyncracy about not researching Divine Right as the first person. Seriously, I can't make myself do it. It's a nice tech with a religion and 3 wonders, but... I... Simply... can't!
I hate, hate, hate that tech, dunno why, so I often miss the Minaret.
I tend to grab atleast one of the "hit" wonders, and in BtS I find the Space elevator rather useless...

The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have

The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have

Stonehenge is now to astronomy not calendar.

Stonehenge is now to astronomy not calendar.

Im still stuck on warlords my polish friend

Im still stuck on warlords my polish friend

You are currently in the Civ4 - Beyond The Sword forum, my friend.

Touché

You are currently in the Civ4 - Beyond The Sword forum, my friend.

Touché

I know, but Warlords is a dead forum and General is usually quiet, its not like I cant enjoy the Poland conversation and I have been in this forum for months, I know most of the features of BTS

I know, but Warlords is a dead forum and General is usually quiet, its not like I cant enjoy the Poland conversation and I have been in this forum for months, I know most of the features of BTS

Nobody enjoys the poland forum - it's sick! :yuck:

ankor wat for GPfarm otherwise i can live without all wonders

because 11 turns on the hanging gardens
is 11 knights less u hav

Pyramids (representation i think it should come ealier)
Stonehenge (free culture)
Effieltower (char)

pre Bts
sistine chapel
I've just tried oracle sling shot and now owning the game.

something with an engineer. gw or pyrams

Hanging gardens and Notre Dame you can always find a way for all the other things but in the late game it's always the question about health and happiness. Then the three resource wonders rock and roll etc are quite good and the AI pays very well for them.

Another one I don't feel pleased to leave out is the Oracle by using it to get Metal Casting then building the colossus plus the AI is quite generous in it's trades for it.

The Stonehendge is a great beginning wonder. Until Calender, it helps spread your culture and land, and works quickly with creative trait

Oracle, a must have to propel yourself forward

Great Library, That GP is great

Hagia Sophia, it makes improvements work faster this is a nice to have

I think having the creative trait defeats the whole purpose of having stonehenge..... What's the point? Unless creative/charismatic which no leader is AFAIK for the happiness bonus....

Hagia Sophia? 500/750/1500 hammers! That is 9-12 workers! Why not just build workers instead. Even with stone.... Could build units instead too. The only time I ever really built it was when I had a GE to burn and it was about the only wonder available for a long time since the others had been built.

I've recently discovered the Moai Statues... they seem ridiculously powerful to me. I think it should be a world wonder, but there you go. I basically find myself a nice peninsula city with loads of coast, and a few sea food resources, build the statues and add library and collossus if I can and I've a great city. In my first 3 games playing BTS, I've ended up moving my capitol to there for the beureacracy boost because it's just so much better than my other cities.

Anyway, as for world wonders, I quite like the Great Library. I tend towards a central economy too often but the GL gives me an easy great scientist for academy without much effort on my part. :)

There are 2 world wonders i MUST get in my 5-10 city civ.
They are The Great Lighthouse, and The Great Library.

It all depends on many factors, but the Oracle is usually a good choice in every game, and so is the Hanging Gardens. The Natural Park is a great wonder for a late, heavily forested city. I pretty much only guarantee that I'll build Oxford every time.

For example, for some civs, Stonehenge is a great bargain, but for other civs, its a waste of hammers, unless very cheap.
Just curious which wonders, both world and national, that people consider "must have".

I'm learning the basics still, and so my difficulty level doesn't require me to build wonders... I'm trying to understand the game so I can look at each wonder and say "yeah that will help me" or "waste of time". There's a few that interest me, but I've not considered all options yet.

I really like the Christo Redentor. Really handy if I have to go to war and need units quick - just switch to nation and draft them.

I build wonders depending on a few factors. For example, what is my victory method? Does it mesh well with my leader/civ?

That being said, the Pyramids is the best overall Wonder. It's an early game wonder. It helps produce great engineers (which help build more wonders). It also gives you access to more civics (duh). Finally, it never goes obsolete (unless you count discovering all the techs for the civics...)

Apostolic Palace. This might be the second Best Wonder. You can pretty much end any war against you. You can make people fight wars for you. You can force embargos... Basically, if you can spread your religion far and wide, you unofficially RULE the world. It's good to be pope.

The only true MUST have is the Palace.;)

The only others for me are Heroic and National Epic. Some of the world wonders like Oracle, Great Library, Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Versailles/Forbidden Palace I would consider building, but none are "MUST have"

Oracle is good, pyramids too, but i usually build Stonehenge and spam settlers. :p

when im playing raging barbs, it's the Wall, all the barbs that spawn near my border go to my neighbor and weaken him for my invasion :mwaha:
but in a normal game , the pyramids are great



yay, my first post :beer: , lurking for a loooong time, decided to take a more active role

Oracle!Then i get feudalism.

Playing Hannibal:
Great Lighthouse, Colossus for synergy with the UB. Usually miss ToA :(

Otherwise:
Oracle, University of Sankore, Spiral Minaret (if going CoL)
Pentagon, Space Elevator (if space victory)

yay, my first post :beer: , lurking for a loooong time, decided to take a more active role

Welcome to posting! :band:

Mmmm ... lessee ... no "must have" Wonders for me. Many of them are nice to have (Pyramids, Stonehenge, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, and a few others), but none of them will break the game for me.

Actually, I spoke too soon. If you're going for a Space victory, then you really should get the Space Elevator. That one's kinda critical. ;)

Otherwise, Wonders are very situational for me. If there is a Wonder that would complement my current strategy, then I'll probably try to build it. If I miss it, I'll go conquer from the poor fool who built it. (On my way to capture Izzy's Apostolic Palace now....) If the Wonder isn't particularly important to me in that game, I'll usually pass.

However, if I happen to have the production-doubling resource for a particular Wonder -- and I also have a productive city that doesn't need to build anything right now -- then I'll often take a pass at it. If I lose the race, I'll still get a nice pile of gold for my efforts. :gold::gold::gold:

All the early game Wonders are situational. If it seems like a good deal to try for them, I'll go for it. If I can't build them quickly enough, I'm tying up a major city for too long when it could be building other stuff to expand my empire, with too high a risk that the AI will get them.

If I have a Great Engineer at the right time, I'll look at available Wonders and select one. It is almost always worth doing for any early game wonder, which the GE can build completely anywhere.


The modern Wonders, even middle ages, those are the key ones. Apostolistic Palace and the UN are must-try-for if you want to control their diplomatic power. Having a guaranteed shot at election is worth a lot.

Three Gorges Dam is pretty helpful on any large continent. Making sure no AI gets it is a pretty good reason to get it as well. Unfortunately, it is pretty hard to get it on normal speed before you've built coal plants everywhere of importance, so you don't need it so much for power as for a slight reduction in pollution. But it can be a great help for newly conquered power-less cities, especially if you use Mining Inc to boost production.

If I want a modern war I want the Pentagon. The extra experience is nice, and again, I want to deny my enemy.

Statue of Liberty is always worth shooting for. It pays pretty well, especially on larger maps.


If I have a dominant state religion, I'll try for Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore to take advantage of that, as well as of course getting the Apostolistic Palace. It can be hard to get both in a competitive game.


Pyramids and Great Library are an obvious great combo, but if I don't have stone or lots of forests or both then they aren't exactly must-haves. Instead, building an army to take them is better :crazyeye:

I've recently discovered the Moai Statues... they seem ridiculously powerful to me. I think it should be a world wonder, but there you go.

If they are ridiculously powerful, then if the were a World Wonder they might give the owner too huge an advantage.

The only two essentials for me are the Pentagon and Three Rivers Gorges. Since I usually apply the Conan principle.