View Full Version : Beta 3: Comments/Suggestions/Bugs

Sep 05, 2007, 04:40 AM
Use this thread to post anything about beta 3 which has been made available.


Please do NOT turn this into a political debate thread. Only comments about the actual beta 3 should be made. Any non-beta 3 related comments (yes, even the validity of certain ideologies or political parties) post in a new thread. :)


If you want to suggest something, first think about how it would affect the game. I will not add a suggestion that detracts any other part of the mod. Also, any sensitive topics will be glossed over too. :)


Please provide full details of the bug, and screenshots (press PRINT SCREEN and save into Paint) and save games (before and after the bug preferably). Also state whether what versions you are using (eg: BtS 3.03, beta 3 movies/no movies).

AI performance:

AI assault performance has been boosted, and it will attempt naval invasions (EG: Germany to Norway, Japan to the islands). However, AI defense has also been boosted. So it can assault and defend better. The result may be that the AI doesn't appear to be doing better than beta 2 AI, but in fact it's invading and defending against the invasions better.

Sep 05, 2007, 06:37 AM
The add-on pack thread should be sticky.

Sep 06, 2007, 01:31 AM
AI Performance:
1939, accurate historical events.
I am playing as the Soviet Union. Germany lagged a bit in conquering Poland. Did not manage to land in Norway. It took Germany a loong time to destroy the Low Countries. They declared war on me and still havent destroyed the low countries. Only Paris and Calais were captured from the French and West Balkan is still untouched. On the Eastern front I conquered Konigsburg and Warsaw as soon as they declared war on me. Later on Chisnau and Buchurest From East Balkan. Even the USA is in the war now and Axis havent acomplished nothing serious. I am yet to be attacked by a force larger then 2 infantry and a panzer. I havent noticed any aerial attacks from the AI either.
Its been very quiet and Germany didnt finish any invasion in time (or not at all) which in turn probably got them to this situation. Im expecting Albania, Danzig, Budapest , Breslau , Krakow to be mine by the end of the year.

I dont think the AI is more aggressive in Beta 3, on the opposite it seems a lot more quiet and defensive.

Sep 06, 2007, 03:49 AM

I think that's more an issue of the 1939 start. The new AI code is more designed around the '36 starts. From a '36 start I've seen armies over 300 each for Germany and USSR by June '41.

This will be an interesting dilemma. Have an AI that can play well from '36 or '39?

Edit: 400 -> 300. Hit the wrong key.

Sep 07, 2007, 01:07 AM
I definitely would go for '39 since thats when officially World War 2 started and all the invasions and fighting were going on.

I havent tried '36 yet. BTW are you referring to '36 open play or historical events or both ?

Sep 07, 2007, 07:54 AM
My preference is '36 Historic ... after all, how you prepare your infrastructure and build your armies in accordance with your plans is more important to me than starting in '39 with the standard 50 Infantry and 6 Tanks and little infrastructure.

Sep 07, 2007, 11:18 AM
I have noticed that the turns are a lot slower in the latest beta - possibly this is due to the better AI?

Sep 07, 2007, 02:14 PM
The AI will stay written for a '36 start. In fact the '39 scenario was only added later in development for those who didn't want to do the build-up. ;)

The AI will be a little slower, but I think the increase in war-ability makes up for it.

Sep 07, 2007, 02:15 PM
BTW, ran an AI Autoplay testgame, and when the Axis finally fell in '46 USA had taken most of Italy and southern Germany. A victory for the AI! :D

Sep 08, 2007, 06:16 AM
I'm definitely in favour of better AI over turn times, but it'd be good if somehow game turns could be sped up without detracting from the rest of the scenario.

Still, apart from that, it's great! Playing a game as the Soviet Union at the moment, and Finland is certainly going to pose a challenge...

Sep 10, 2007, 12:48 AM
Marines and Paratroopers.

They are overpowered. Having a strength of 20 (more powerful then most infantry's) plus a bonus ability; paradrop or amphibious warfare, they pretty much obsolete weaker countries infrantry. They also cost less to produce, one more reason to build them instead of regular infantry. They also can have the +25% vs gunpowder units promotion making them very powerful, flexible and able to destroy most infantry. Furthermore Paratroopers and Marines destroy the balance of the game from a historic point of view. Before Germany would be fighting improved French infantry (str 15) with Germany's 20str Infantry, being able to destroy em pretty easy. Now the French build Marines with str 20 and +25 % vs gunpowder units promotion :) You get the drift.
Because of these reasons the marines and the paratroopers are now the ultimate combat unit early in the game which shouldn't be so.

I suggest either 'nerfin them down to 15-17' or disabling their +25% vs gunpowder units promotion to balance things out.

Sep 10, 2007, 10:11 AM
Marines and Paratroopers.

They are overpowered. Having a strength of 20 (more powerful then most infantry's) plus a bonus ability; paradrop or amphibious warfare, they pretty much obsolete weaker countries infrantry. They also cost less to produce, one more reason to build them instead of regular infantry. They also can have the +25% vs gunpowder units promotion making them very powerful, flexible and able to destroy most infantry. Furthermore Paratroopers and Marines destroy the balance of the game from a historic point of view. Before Germany would be fighting improved French infantry (str 15) with Germany's 20str Infantry, being able to destroy em pretty easy. Now the French build Marines with str 20 and +25 % vs gunpowder units promotion :) You get the drift.
Because of these reasons the marines and the paratroopers are now the ultimate combat unit early in the game which shouldn't be so.

I suggest either 'nerfin them down to 15-17' or disabling their +25% vs gunpowder units promotion to balance things out.

Maybe adding in upgrades for the marines and paratroopers like the rest of the units?

Sep 10, 2007, 10:43 AM
I've played a 1936 historic start into 1942 or so as Italy on Noble with the latest mod, and so far the AI seems improved. A couple of turns after the USA joined the war, they dropped 3 transports worth of units on Italian-controlled West Africa. Northern Europe did not go entirely 'according to script': Poland was eventually sacked, and Germany took some cities from France early on, but otherwise there has been little land changing hands other than in Poland and the Balkans.

There are some oddities though. The Low Countries do seem to be a powerhouse -- Germany bypassed them and did an amphib assault on France instead. Immediately after Russia joined the war, they dropped a transport-load of troops into Libya -- a transport they must have already had floating around in the central Mediterranean. I've also noticed the usual border-integrity/priority issue when I glanced at northern Europe: I am taking cities from Russia along the Black Sea, but they are dropping units into Denmark to fight with Germany (though it is possible that those troops have been there for quite some time, I didn't notice when they showed up).

I've noticed the marine/paratrooper superiority issue also. I can handle marines being more powerful than early and medium infantry, but perhaps they should cost slightly more also. Similarly for paratroopers: they are specialized and should cost slightly more; and one can make the argument that paratroopers should be slightly less powerful since they are designed to airdrop without heavy equipment/weapons (it would be a fine-tuning only, since paratroopers are balanced by potentially being intercepted during the airdrop). I think the promotions are fine as is, since one has to actually attend to them to make them useful.

Sep 12, 2007, 01:50 AM
Playing as Germany on Noble difficulty with Beta 3:

Air missions are now severely nerfed. Before, it was possible to cripple the whole of Britain and France with the Luftwaffe and keep them out of the war until they were conquered. That this has been fixed has improved the game greatly. Britain can now hold its own (to some extent) against Germany. However, I find that it is inevitable that Britain will fall at some point as I always manage to find time to launch a successful amphibious invasion of Britain. I suppose the only solution to this is to resist the temptation to invade Britain and waste the troops on campaigns in Africa instead. ;-) Although I am surprised that Britain's colony, Canada, does not bring more troops over to reinforce the British isles. America should be landing troops in Britain too after it enters the war in 1941.

Tank destroyers are now far too weak. They should either be strength 20 or should remain at strength 15 with +100% against armour. Otherwise they are weaker than artillery and the powerful German tanks have no real counter. The anti-tank gun should be replaced with the anti-tank unit in normal BTS because its graphics are better. ;-) The anti-aircraft gun, besides being rather weak and pointless, could be doing with some graphical polishing. ANd of course I'd love to see the remaining units get their unique graphics. The addition of new unit graphics in this Beta was awesome. I love seeing each plane and tank for each nation have its own graphics. Maybe I'm just superficial but this enhances the game beyond words.

I noticed that it is well worth capturing Norway (as Germany) as the terrain is rather good and one can pump out units from these cities quite quickly after a bit of worker investment. With airbases these units can then be flown in to garrison newly captured cities on the Ostfront or elsewhere in the world. Seems a bit of a waste to use them to produce ships, which I usually have the coastal cities back in German dedicated towards. HOwever, it takes absolutely FOREVER to conquer all the Norwegian cities! (Even longer if one has started in 1936 and they are all heavily defended.)

East Balkans and Italy are completely hopeless at assisting my war effort in the East. I think the AI is building too many fighers and not enough units. THese fighers are then largely left to intercept, so that the aerial combat system has been neutered somewhat. I like that the Luftwaffe get decimated if they carry on operations against French and British targets, as this is realistic. But the French cities collapse in no time under the weight of the Panzer attacks. Why does France have next to no army? I suppose this is realistic as well. :-)

THe AI does not use ships to bombard tile improvements, it seems, and this puts it at a disadvantage. Ranged bombardment is one of the best additions in this game. I wish it was in epic BTS! The AI is probably not bombing enough, however, because I found my industrial output growing and growing until I was at the point, as early as December 1942, with an army four times the size of my nearest competitor (which was the USA I think). From there it was a case of mopping up and invading the USA over the seas. MAybe playing on a higher difficulty level would fix this. I also must play as nations other than Germany to see how the computer fares as the Nazis. (I'll definitely try the Soviet Union and Britain and use historical tactics: in the case of the SU, retreating from front-line cities, amassing forces further back and then encircling the Germans.)

I mentioned it once before but it's disappointing that there's no Soviet Union east of Stalingrad. The SOviet Union has very little productive capacity and is easily wiped out by the Germans. There should be more Russian cities on this map, and they should start out with little infrastructure, so that by around 1942/43 they will have started to build up a little and give the Soviets the chance to beat back the Germans. Don't really see how the Soviets can compete with Germany at the moment. This is highly unrealistic as the Soviets as you know took the brunt of German aggression and did most of the grunt work in pushing them back and defeating them.

That being said, the USA doesn't seem to contribute much to the war effort either.

The AI loves to build paratroopers and marines more than it does its own infatry. This is saddening because it means less of the unique unit graphics (for nation-specific infantry) and this reduces the flavour of the game. Another superficial point.

The UK no longer has any north sea oil?

Sep 13, 2007, 09:42 PM
Hmm....... so who do you think the winner is here? Mid-1948. :D

This is a AI autoplay under the new naval rules.

Sep 14, 2007, 02:50 PM
Hmmm -- kind of looks bad for the US --

In your modification -- did you give bombers ship kill?

I think that bomber should stay as they are, while fighters are only ones to have ship kill --

This should nerf the strength of land based air

(bombers are land only, while fighters are both) --

It would be interesting to see the list of units created and killed for US, Japan, UK, Aust

In the Auto play, do you collect information on what kills what?

Why do you think this result came about?

Sep 20, 2007, 06:45 AM
Dale, Will games started in add-on beta-3 be portable to future add-ons to the scenario? We're starting a PBEM and figure that our game will be portable if patches are issued but are wondering about the add-ons.

Sep 20, 2007, 07:07 AM
They won't be compatible with the new BtS patch up-coming, and won't be compatible with the final release of the add-on (which is now built on the patch). Sorry mate.

Sep 20, 2007, 09:09 AM
THanks. So, since we haven't started yet and the patch is imminent, it would behoove us to wait for the new patch/add-on. Any idea when that is due?

Sep 21, 2007, 05:31 PM
Ok much like the german scenario, mine with britian is quite similar. The AI seems a bit lax and skiddish. Germany had a formidible army to start, which *vanished* and then never managed to do anything.

They sent one fleet of 4 battleships, handful of cruisers, and about 8 landing crafts ... destination? presumably low countries. Those were obliterated by one of the six royal navy fleets. Which I then moved to the german coastal cities, obliterated every improvement with a battleship radius and recaptured copenhagen the same turn it was captured.

I quickly asked my buddies the french to invade Rhine, which they didn't but had the force to. 3-4 turns later its stocked full of tanks, marines, and paratroopers... I guess the french sent notice of the invasion. Well this left Kiel open so I obliged, as well as moving into Bremmen.

France never was invaded, and when the Italians joined the war they were just as laughable. I rolled through venice, turin, as well as africa then up through the islands grabbing them all. Which I give to the french so I could move on to the boot. Which is vanquished of any tile improvements thanks to the other third of the royal navy. The last two fleets have had a boring job docked in inverness and london.

Basically I'm ending my campaign now as its ascertained I could roll through germany and the boot ... probably before them traitors the US (whos spies have destroyed my Airforce base in Fredicton about 6 times) ever have a chance to get involved.

Oh yea and I think I was only bombed about 3 times the whole time. Each time by Duce, with a single improved bomber. Maybe they're scared of my aircraft carriers full of hurricanes? The germans have seriously had a better airforce the whole time... they should've been bombing my fleets.

Sep 21, 2007, 09:02 PM
I am coming to the conclusion that, no matter how improved the AI is, it is no match strategy-wise for a human opponent. Sure, it can stockpile units and throw them at weak spots. And it can focus on certain historical goals. But that's about it.

Here is my latest experience as Finland using historical mode. That's right, Finland. Finland's only opponent is Russia. First the Winter War: Almost took Murmansk after bracing for an attack that never came, but missed it by one turn because the diplomats intervened. No matter, USSR hadn't even bothered to attack other than to grab a wayward worker. Apparently too busy getting beaten up in Poland.

Now it is mid-1942 and I have been at war with Russia for a year. Things are going well, despite my erroneously planning to also have to fight with Norway. I've taken all of USSR's northern cities including Leningrad and am now one march away from a lightly-defended Moscow. Also took Talinn and am bombarding Riga into submission. Russia has a huge stack in Riga, 10-15 ground units, on their border with Germany (they have apparently only squabbled over Konigsberg but not echanged cities otherwise), so I may not be able to take it for a while. But no matter, just to the east are several cities with only 2-3 ground units each.

While Finland is on its way to superpower status, despite largely inferior weaponry (improved bombers are still just a dream on the drawing board, but am getting it done with standard-issue artillery/marines/tanks/paratroopers against superior Russian infantry and heavy tanks), the rest of the war can best be described as a stalemate. Low Countries and central Poland still remain independent, in 1942. Copenhagen and Oslo fell to Germany, Baltics fell to Russia, northern Africa is mostly in Italian hands, the Balkans are fighting amongst themselves. That is about it. No idea what Germany and France and Britain have been up to on the mainland, but apparently am not missing much.

The AI seems to send only token counterattacks most of the time. 1-2 ground units, a couple of air sorties, token shore bombardment from a navy that has no ports to call home. Leave an injured unit unattended, and the AI pounces. It is also pretty good at pulling off the stealth amphibious assault, from the transport that has been floating around full of units probably since the beginning of the game and maybe since before the DoW -- units that might have been better utilized in nearby city defense. But the AI is not so good at moving ships out of port before a city is taken. The Russians keep throwing units away attacking the square north of Leningrad -- I have a fort there now and they are crossing a river against fortified units, so it has been a slaughter. But they do not attack Leningrad at all and I am cleaning up all of the cities to the east with little resistance.

In an earlier game as USSR, I was able to take three cities from Finland during the short Winter War while also dealing with Poland in a timely manner. And this was no suicide run, knowing the diplomats would bail me out -- I tend not to throw units away, so I only took what I would be able to hold from a counterattack. So certainly Russia is strong enough to take it to the Finns if they plan accordingly.

I think ultimately the bottom line is that, as wonderful as this scenario is, anything less than multiplayer isn't going to do it a whole lot of justice strategy-wise.

Sep 22, 2007, 06:16 AM
I think ultimately the bottom line is that, as wonderful as this scenario is, anything less than multiplayer isn't going to do it a whole lot of justice strategy-wise.

I'm agreed on that. Maybe if Firaxis had spent less money on making fancy graphics for Afterworld and hired more AI programmers, this scenario would have benefited. In my latest game as the Soviet Union, starting in 1936, Nazi Germany built up a huge force by 1939 but ignored all of Poland except Danzig and launched an amphibious assault on Inverness instead. :lol:

Oct 02, 2007, 02:23 PM
That actually wouldn't have been a terrible idea, Horizons - wouldn't have given Britain and France casus belli to enter the war.

Anyway, great work on beta 3.

Oct 02, 2007, 02:58 PM
Having tried the beta-3 now with several different countries, and having the AI make decisions to take the war directly to me for the most part, I think that that is a feature either of the AI or the scenario. The latest example though got me wondering whether a modified-third or new fourth 'mode' option is in order.

Playing as France using historical mode, I advanced to 1941 with little incident. I decided to lay low and build up my defenses, letting UK/GE fight it out around Bremen (exchanging amphib invasions and naval pleasantries). However, Germany did throw 19 units away in an attack on the Maginot fortifications in just one turn -- the defenders weren't even scratched. Germany brought the war to my borders when they invaded the Low Countries, but it was easily handled. When Italy entered the war I was able to concentrate on their navy and eventually taking cities in northern Italy, before having enough units built up to work on the North African cities.

But the critical choice-point came just before the hard-coded DoW between Germany and Russia. I had retaken the Low Countries without heavy resistance and was massing to move into Germany-proper. Italy was on the verge of collapse in NA, their navy was all but eliminated, and had already lost two mainland cities and one of their islands. Certainly we know from history that the decision to invade Russia was an unwise one, but in that case the Germans had already defeated France, Italy was still a viable ally, and there was no threat at all to the homeland from Norway, the Low Countries, or Poland. In the game in question, Germany had taken Oslo but was facing a large stack of Norwegian troops near occupied Copenhagen, Poland still held on to one city, and Italy was on the verge of collapse -- hardly a good time to attack the USSR.

So, as a modification of the semi-random events mode or a new mode in itself, why not have the AI somehow assess the later DoWs based on the current war situation? Some factor where for Germany it sums up the number of objectives in-hand (e.g. from earlier DoWs such as Poland, LowCountries, etc.), number of original cities lost, and decides then whether to make a new DoW. Perhaps it should also assess military strength of current allies and current opponents, such as the historical decision to invade Russia being based on a 'defeated' UK after the Battle of Britain. There could be a random element to it also. The additionally-tricky thing would be Italy's DoW (does Germany need to be 'strong enough' to warrant Italy joining in?), whether the USA DoW is always automatic or could it be delayed by how the war is going, and whether the USSR would DoW on Germany if somehow enticed by the Allies? I know, I know, too many questions.

Obviously this not an option for the true-historical mode, but something maybe to think about. This came to mind for me, knowing that the DoW with USSR was imminent, to bide my time a bit and watch as German troops were siphoned off to the new eastern front. I would need a slightly different overall strategy if I wasn't certain that Germany would DoW with USSR. But, unlike open-play, it preserves the historical alliances.

Oct 03, 2007, 01:19 AM
When does Germany invade the West Balkans? It's the start of 1941 and still no DOW.

Also, I think the AI invests too heavily in fighters. At the end of 1940 the only enemy I have left is British Canada of which I have a large stack over there conquering thier cities. I occupy all of England, Ireland, Norway, Low Countries, Denmark, Poland, Northern France, Iraq, Kuwait, Egypt and Libya I have enough forces on the border of West Balkans and Russia to be able to not create another unit in the game and still win. I've done all this and barely lost a unit. The maximum units defending cities is 4-5 but in every city there is 5+ fighters. When I invaded England I unleashed the entire luftwaffe angainst them but I lost 75% of my bombers. Every time I go on bombing raids I lose at least half of the planes. Because of this I have given up creating an airforce. The AI hardly ever build bomber either.

Nevertheless, it's a great scenario.

Oct 03, 2007, 09:22 AM
Germany DoWs West Balkans sometime in spring of 1941, before the DoW with Russia in June.

I routinely encounter stacks of 4 fighters in almost every enemy AI city I attack. If they are shooting down bombers, then that is what they are supposed to be doing. However, does every city need 4 interceptors? I would think that 2 would be enough, unless units are healing and/or the air assault is heavy. Shouldn't some of the excess fighters be attacking units or cities or improvements? I see some of this, but perhaps not enough. Perhaps it is also an issue of not always knowing what the AI is up to when it is fighting amongst itself while I am waiting for my turn. I can see what it tries to do against me, but don't necessarily know what it does against my allies or its other enemies. It would seem to be a waste of resources if there are unutilized air units when a couple of extra ground units in the same city might be more useful. I am always pleased to topple a city that has a bunch of air or naval units in it with only a couple of ground units for defense, even after 1-2 turns of bombardment they are usually still there.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think this is a difficulty level issue. I have been playing on noble or prince, and feel that as the levels increase the AI has more units but doesn't necessarily use them any differently?

Oct 03, 2007, 10:17 AM
Ioannis Metaxas Greece = democracy?

Oct 04, 2007, 05:54 PM
I know Beta 3 was written for 3.03 and probably isn't fully compatible with 3.13 but I thought i'd post this anyway.

Following updating to patch 3.13 , when I try to load any saves for Europe '36 (Hitler) , the game goes CTD.

Also, if I try to launch a new game using Europe '36 (Hitler) there isn't any option whatsoever for playing Germany.

Oct 09, 2007, 01:36 AM
Same Problem with the pacific 36, after you try to load a saved game under 3.13 the game crashes ...

Edit: clean installation, no mods, patch3.13

Oct 21, 2007, 05:03 AM
Same here, clean install of the new patch. Civ is 3.13, RtW is the current patch. I can load the scenario but saved games ctd.

The app.log says: ERR: Error during inflate.

Oct 21, 2007, 06:27 AM
Load the patch for the release version. :)

Oct 21, 2007, 04:16 PM
Just to make sure I am clear on this....

I am using BtS 313.
The RtW version I am using is from the file RtW_AOP1_Full.exe from Oct. 7, 2007.

I get a CTD whenever I try to load a saved game.

Should I load an earlier version? Beta3? The one that came with the original BtS DVD?

Thanks for the help.

Oct 21, 2007, 05:29 PM
I went back and re-installed 3.13, then re-installed RtW release 1, still getting a CTD.

What is the zlib.dll file and does it factor in to the problem?

Oct 21, 2007, 10:30 PM
Dale posted a patch for can find it on apolyton

Oct 22, 2007, 04:47 AM
Thanks. I will check it out.

Yep, that did the trick. Thanks. Its a patch 1.1 over at Apolyton.

Oct 22, 2007, 01:49 PM
It's also listed in the installation instructions on the DL page here. ;)

Oct 28, 2007, 10:11 AM
Awsome Mod Dale btw. just a few things i noticed when playin with the lastest additions patch. Only from My USSR point of view doh.

Im currently playin open 36' Europe, emperor difficulty with USSR. Been in war with Germany for most of the time since 38', with counties like GB, France, Finland, Sweden, East Balkan also Declaring war on me. so far, i have taken the MiddleEast up to italy, a Front to Germany through east Europe, and Skandinavia is mine.

I see alot of flaws and things i cant seem to understand, like how "the low counties" can survive against France and Germany until 1942 and been in war for like 3 years... Doesnt the AI use it superior forces?? it seems like a stalemate. and Germany with superior Air and Tanks Forces, dont do much against my Infantry based army.

ATM i got an Army Consiting of only 200 Advanced Infantry, 60+ Artillary, and 50+ Figthers, and thats it.. what about the other units you say? i just found no use for them...

-I dont see the use for T34 Tanks (unlike the German one) cause of their Weak power of 25 and Slow Production , or the Heavy with 30str with its slow speed.. both needs a Boosts somehow, either to power or speed or something else.
- Improved and Advanced Infantry for USSR makes tanks useless, especially the move of 3 on Advanced, making them the prefered Blitz unit. there's also no counter against Infantry. Infantry is the I-Win unit, with Artillery support.
- Artillery is sweet :), One of the Best Unit in the Mod, without a Doubt.
- AT Gun needs to be -alot- Cheaper to build, and perhaps needs a boost, like 125% against tanks, I never build one, i can get 2-3 infantry for its costs.
- why use Tank Destroyers when Artillery does the Same Job with Collertal DMG and Bombarment as bonus. Artillery dont need bonus against Tanks, and if it does, only 25%

Air :
-All my Bombers dies after leaving the factory, want range bombardment? use figthers, they survive.
-I havnt seen the AA gun doing anything yet. seems like figthers are superior to them also.

Submarines needs to be able to take down Landing Crafts without having a 50-60% chance of dieing in the process.
otherwise, the Sea war has turned alot more interesting with the improved Subs and Destoryers.

Other :
-Disable Upgrading if Possible, 20 gold to upgrade your Units is a bargain, and whole armies can be upgraded when you get a new tech, totaly unreal, turn it off. it ruins the feel that you should get when gettin a new superior unit with a new tech. since you dont need to build it, just upgrade your old for 20 gold.. insane... and can be a game winner/breaker.
- Let us build old versions of some units, especially the tank. the t34 is superior to KV-1 because of its speed.. only reason to discover heavy tanks is because you need it for other techs.the heavy tanks have no role whatsoever.

anyway, i'll see if i can try a USSR vs Germany with me and a buddy, would be a change vs the stuiped AI.