A lot of how your Civ-game will develop is decided within he BC time-frame (due to the snowball-effect)
Your skill can turn the tables but if you are left too far behind you will have a hard time (especially on higher difficult levels).
Therefore, I consider the opening play as one of the most important parts of the game.

This is not supposed to be an article about how to start a Civ4 game (there are some opening-guids in the forum, helpfull to a certain degree).
Often, newer players rely on a special build-orders advised by others or they apply the same strategy to every start they are dealt with, once they were successfull.
However, the unique leaders (traits, techs, units, buildings) and the starting position require different strategies for different situation.
In fact, there is no 'one-for-all' startegy concerning Civ4 opening play.

Since I first played Civ4 I experimented with this critical, initial part of the game, it has been something like a playground for me where I try different approaches, compare them and with each other and with the AI.
I played numerous test-games with various starts on (nearly) all difficult levels to gain experience and find out the most effective ways to build up from scratch.
Some Civ4 starts are rather straightforward (for example grassland-start near 2 wheat with agriculture) but sometimes real interesting positions turn up.
I want to share one of those challenging examples, a position that came up during one of my testings.

I will give you the 'case studie' first and wait for some response/input.
I also gave those starting position to 3 fellow civ players and I now have already 4 (including my own) different turnlogs for analysis.

BTS
small pangea, noble, 5 opponents, no barbs
HC (Inka)
financial
industrious
UU is the quechua (warrior replacement)
UB is a granary replacement with added culture
starting techs are agriculture and mysticism


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/30880/test017.jpg

Let's look at the initial position. First thoughts are, hey, very strong start, some clams out there, but hey, no fishing :(
Then one might think about all those woods but we got unlucky again, we don't start with mining.
And there are some stones within the radius, and what about our mysticism starting tech, well sooo many options.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/30880/HuaynaCapac_4000BC.CivBeyondSwordSave

My own analysis will come later, first you have the opportunity to show your skills regarding opening play.
I've posted the 4000BC save and will wait for any takers who would like to play until let's say 1000BC.
If you provide a written report of what you did (and why, perhaps with a few pics or saves) I could even analyse your strategy as I did with the ones of my fellow players.
I will then show you the different strategies and how they develop in BC-times, for comparison and to show you totally different,
interesting solutions to an extremly interesting starting position :)

So let the discussion begin, what would you do...

reserved for analysis

What difficulty is this?

It's noble level to compare to the AI and give everyone an opportunity to take a shot at it.

I would research fishing first and build another Quecha and stack it with the first one to go conquering whoops exploring. :mischief: But seriously, yes I would look for a close vulnerable neighbour with no early UU to terrorize. I'd then build another Quecha and keep it close to the capital and start work on a worker. But then again, I've never played Inca so I wouldn't really know.

Good idea for a thread, though I'm not sure anyone needs to be "graded." We can all use some improvement.

I'm on a Pangaea map, noble, as the Inca with 5 opponents and no barbs. Here's how I see it:

Long-Term goal: Conquest of all opponents!
Medium-Term goal: to locate and conquer out one nearby vulnerable opponent
Short-Term goal: to build a force of Axemen
Immediate goal: develop Cuzco and one or two other cities (with copper, hopefully) for axemen

Immediate priorities:
Research fishing and build workboats
Research masonry and the wheel to hook up stone and build the Pyramids
Research mining and bronze working for slavery, wood chopping, and copper
Scout for nearest opponent and reveal map to find copper
Build the Pyramids -- We have stone and are Industrious

Short-Term Research Order:
1. Fishing. I want boats now for food and commerce.
2. Mining. For BW. Also makes Masonry cheaper, and there are two minable hills with no forests in our BFC.
3. Bronze Working. We know why this is good.
4. The Wheel. To hook up with city #2 and (hopefully) copper and stone
5. Masonry. To quarry the stone and build the Pyramids.
6. Pottery. For UB.
7. Animal Husbandry. In case there is no copper and for more food.
8. Iron Working. In case there is no copper or horse, otherwise, delay this.

Short-Term Build Order:
1. Start building Quecha (using forest hill 1F 2H tile) until Fishing is researched, then switch to workboat. We need to explore the map. Besides, we can't build a boat until fishing is done and we have nothing for a worker to do right now.
2. Finish Quecha, working clam tile to size 2, then clams and forest hill. Send Quecha scouting.
3. Build second workboat.
4. Start building third workboat, then switch to Worker so that worker completes when Bronze Working is done. Send worker to chop forest hill then build road to Stone.
5. Finish third workboat.
6. Quecha (settler escort)
7. Settler, finished with whip. Send settler to copper, if any. Otherwise, send him to high food location.
8. Terrace (UB), finished with whip.
9. Worker. Chopper and road-builder to city 2.
10. Quecha
11. Pyramids, chopped to completion.
12. Barracks
13. Military Units

When Pyramids are done, and assuming we have metal, switch to Police State and whip out a force of 12 axemen with two cities. I am intentionally not doing the Quecha rush because I'm going for the Pyramids.

Assuming a happy cap of 6 in Cuzco, we'll be working three Clam tiles (12F/9C), a plains hill mine (4H), a forest hill mine (1F/3H) and a stone quarry (1F/4H) at full capacity. We can also farm a riverside grassland tile (3F/1C) for those times after we've whipped when we need to regrow.

Good idea for a thread, though I'm not sure anyone needs to be "graded." We can all use some improvement.

I apologize if it looks like someone will be "graded".
Because everyone is biased in some direction one reason for asking other players to give their 2cent (or even play ;) ) on this particular starting position was to get different strategies and discuss them.
It's just a fact that this start is by no means an easy one to play in terms of efficiency.
This is not meant to be a competition but a fair discussion with some sporty criticism :)

*RESOURCE SPOILERS IN IMAGES*

This is a really good idea, so I went ahead and took your offer to play to 1000bc quickly. I don't expect my start to turn many heads, but I think it's respectable at least.

My first build was a quecha, while I researched fishing. I was planning on building a work boat right after the quecha, but Wang Kon showed up quickly and my first task quiclky became another capitol for a 2nd city. Oh, by the way, I got a scout out of that first hut as I expect most everyone will get.

With 4 Quechas in position against 1 korean warrior (I admit, I got lucky here, Wang left a warrior standing right next to his city for some reason)...

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0026.jpg
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg


... I had my 2nd city, a holy one at that, and 1 less rival. No wonders or even any buildings, but that's not suprising I think at this level of difficulty.

With a couple extra Quechas, I sent 1 scouting again and he was able to nab a worker for me. Good thing too because I was decidely low on them.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0029.jpg

Having all that done, I went ahead and got busy working that stone. I whipped a settler into stonehenge and had a forest chop...

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0030.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0031.jpg

... Stonehenge in 1 turn.

After that The Oracle was up. It took more than 1 turn unfortunately. I think it ended up taking 6, not certain though. I was going to 2 pop whip it, but through some poor planning my 4th pop came late and I decided to not whip it at all.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0032.jpg

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0034.jpg


So here I am at 1000bc with 4 cities, 2 wonders, 2 religions and nearly done with alphabet. I would likely be done with alphabet had I not founded the copper city, but if I were to continue this game I would almost certainly attempt a late axe rush against pacal or sitting bull.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee120/thorban/Civ4ScreenShot0035.jpg

If I were to continue this game a couple things I would also do is put a lot of hammers into the pyramids possible in 2 cities for the gold. Industrious+stone = $$$. I wouldn't bother completing them because I don't feel like they benefit a CE much at all in the early game. I would also block off the northern land from Saladin for settling later in the game when my economy is stronger.

*edit* I think my research order was Fishing -> The Wheel (so I could road to the stone while researching mining/masonry) -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Masonry -> Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood -> Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry -> Writing -> Alphabet. Hunting came from a hut.

Thanks thorban and slobberinbear for your input.
Any more takers?

I would move Settler 1) inland or definitely 2) into tile that produces 2 hammers (stone or hills/plains) leaving place for second city but not in initial position but perhaps 1S1E from there. It gives you opportunity to build leeve later.

1) seeking for some irigated corn or livestock - then worker first
2) focusing on founding an early religion and building settler at that time

It's all because I do not like building warrior first. Starting with fishing is completely another story ...

btw. I tried to go inland but went into completly wrong direction. No 1 food resource and retired. It reminds me one HoF game, when I decided to go inland seeking for a tile that produces 2 hammers. I found one around 3300BC and rather without 2 hammers. The game was won, but results were not satysfing ;)

The starts outlined above are all solid, but I would say not very imaginative... why not try something a little different. :D

I suggest a start that will use what you DO have from turn one, instead of focusing on what you don't have (fishing, mining, etc).

You start with mysticism, you are financial, you are on a lake and have seafood. Plus this is Noble, so the other Civs are not cheating on tech research.

This means you are an unstoppable dead set certainty to found an early religion, and probably both. Settle in place and work a lake or seafood tile first to get those commerce points. Your capital is shortly to become the religious and wealth capital of the world.

Once you have founded Bud and Hinduism (build warriors while you do, and go exploring) go for masonry and BW, quarry the stone and chop your way to stonehenge. You will generate a great prophet shortly, get your first shrine, and be well on your way to world power.

(Of course you will need fishing soon too, to get the food boosts).

For an example of how such a strat can really pay off - check this awesome thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492

It changed how I play Civ IV - the best lesson in making the most of your Civ's strengths that I have ever seen :king:

Well I'm no pro or anything but here's what I did. Actually to start off I'm just gonna say I got a little carried away and the crux of my opening ends at 225AD.

Start by building a worker and researching masonry for the stone within the capitals fat cross.

Encountered Koreans on turn 4, 3840BC. Being protective they're not a prime target for early war. I'm going for some easy wonders with both stone and industrious.

Finished Masonry on turn 8, researching the Wheel next to hook up stone.

Met Mayans on turn 10, 3600BC. Being financial they may be a good target to take out early, as they would be a a potential powerhouse.

Met Saladin on turn 11 and popped a scout from a hut.

Met Sitting Bull on turn 12, lots of protective civs close by, ick.

Finish the worker on turn 15 and built a Quecha next for escort of first settler.

Finished the wheel on turn 16, mining->bronze working next.

On turn 21 met the Portuguese.

Popped pottery from a hut on turn 26, sweet UB tech for free.

Finished Bronze working on turn 33, the stone has been hooked up, and a settler is in production. Chopped a forest on a grasslands hill to hurry settler. Also switched to slavery.

Finished Fishing on turn 38, going animal husbandry next for horse reveal.

Popped another scout on turn 44, just built a fishing boat in capital, am now building stonehenge.

Founded second city on turn 47, near some bronze, cows & Corn. Start worker there and after a few more tiles are done on capital start road to new city for hooking up of bronze.

Animal Husbandry done on turn 48, now researching writing.

Stonehenge finished on turn 52, building another Quecha then settler next.

Writing done on turn 54, polytheism->priesthood next(hoping for the oracle)

On turn 62 I finished priesthood. Noticed Judaism hasnt been popped yet so I go for monotheism in 9 turns.

Finished monotheism and founded Judaism on turn 71, Code of Laws next. Oh and city 3 is up.

Finished the Oracle on turn 80 and took Metal Casting for cheap Forges with Industrious.(this is about where you originally asked to go, being at 1000BC or so, FYI)

With forges & barracks up starting to pump axemen, whipped a few but I'm already pumping them out of two forge-equipped production cities in 2 or 3 turns each so not so much, I mainly used it to get one city out of unhappiness where I forgot to limit growth.

Code of Laws on turn 91 founds confunscianism. Alphabet next.

Finished Alphabet on turn 104, traded Code of Laws for Meditation, Saling, Ironworking, and Hunting to the Portuguese who were lowest on the score chart and furthest from me.. Researching Currency next.

With about a dozen axemen, DoW on Mayans on turn 110, 125BC.

Mayan capital down. Finished currency on 119. Math->Construction next.

Took 2 Mainland mayan cities, razed another, and declared peace cause they have an offshore city, but they're crippled now and irrelevant. Gained a source of horses from one of their cities.

This leaves me with 6 cities in 225 AD, 4 built on my own, 2 captures. Stonehenge, Oracle, and pyramids coming in 11 turns. I'm seeing Native Americans and Koreans both Hindu so I may switch Hindu and reinforce relationships there for now as they're two close neighbors, and target saladin next who is second in line. After I get construction and spread a few more cities I will build cats and swords(or maybe maces if I'm close) and go to town on the Arabs.

Encountered Koreans on turn 4, 3840BC. Being protective they're not a prime target for early war. I'm going for some easy wonders with both stone and industrious.


Protective only benefits archers and gunpowder units, so Wang Kon is actually a good target for a very early war in lower difficulties.

Here is my save at 850 BC, the date I poped my first GP and built my third wonder.

Pregame ideas

Leverage HCs trais while using his UU as defense to allow this.
Go after fishing ASAP.
Masonry is high priority because of the stone in the BFC.
Chop forrests as needed (I did not have to do this).
Shoot for Judaism since I start with 2 techs towards it.

Game progression

Tech path: Fishing/mining/BW/masonry/wheel/polytheism/monotheis (found Judaism)/AH/Pottery (times with oracle)/writing/sailing/hunting

Cuzco: Quncha (partial)/workboat/finish quencha/worker/workboat/settler (use first quencha for protecting second city)/Quencha (to protect road between 2 cities)/Stonehenge/Oracle/Forge/Colossus/Start pyramids

Second city: worker/military/barracks.

Second city is settled to the south to collect corn and cows using fresh water.

Got all three wonders, took temple of solomon with prophet.
Took metal casting as free tech.
Did not switch to Judaism yet because of diplomacy.
Got 114gold in huts. No techs or units.

Overall a great start for best AI IMHO. Shooting for early wonders with HC while working the high commerce tiles is my early strat.

I always play marathon speed/huge maps so this was a bit turbo for me.

edit: add Priesthood after monotheism.

Protective only benefits archers and gunpowder units, so Wang Kon is actually a good target for a very early war in lower difficulties.

Aye, but I wasnt going for a VERY early war, ie not a quechua rush. In a different setup I may indeed have gone for it but I decided not to in this case. Settled on a axeman rush.

Now maybe I SHOULD have gone for a Quechua rush, I won't deny that, as I said I'm no expert player, I consider myself to be intermediate.

Great input so far. All those warmongers out there :mischief: should have made this emperor :lol:



I suggest a start that will use what you DO have from turn one, instead of focusing on what you don't have (fishing, mining, etc)....
.....Settle in place and work a lake or seafood tile first to get those commerce points. Your capital is shortly to become the religious and wealth capital of the world.

This is one of the challenges the start implies, working the seafood isn't possible cause we don't have fishing.

Great input so far. All those warmongers out there :mischief: should have made this emperor :lol:



Great idea for a thread. I think you should have barbs on though. Most strats assume barbs, and you have to do things differently with them on.

Next one, yes please do another soon, use a non financial leader so we can see the differences.

What analysis are you heading for? You could look for total commerce, hammers,soldiers,land area, resources,wonders, beakers gained, diplo modifiers...

I'll try to play today too. :)

What analysis are you heading for? You could look for total commerce, hammers,soldiers,land area, resources,wonders, beakers gained, diplo modifiers...


As stated, this is not meant to be a serious competition so I won't go ahead and count the beakers ;)
It's more of a discussion of a very interesting starting position, what strategies different people will employ and how efficient they turn out to be.
I will wait further (at least until tomorrow) to give more forum members an opportunity to try the start, then I will post my own analysis and discuss some strategies.

As stated, this is not meant to be a serious competition so I won't go ahead and count the beakers ;)


Fair enough. I just played out some turns and it's an interesting map. I think diplomacy might play a key role, deciding who's who.

1000 BC. Nothing too astounding although I played this differently than usual owing to the difficulty level. I think the difficulty level dictates the opening strat more than anything, b/c I know what I can do and can't do. For instance, since this is Noble, the Quecha actually is less effective because the AI's start with warriors. Also, knowing the AI isn't going to expand very much or beat me tech-wise, I went religious early and didn't get BW very early. On Monarch I probably would have tried to hook up either iron, bronze, or horses earlier and definitely would have done a quecha rush on someone. I also would not have gone for monotheism and probably would have built the GW instead of stonehenge and used the spy to steal techs. Pics in spoilers.

My Capital:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/544/civ4screenshot0013el8.jpg

Two wonders- Oracle and Stonehenge. Took MC w/ Oracle. Founded Judaism and Hinduism. If I kept playing I would likely go Great Lighthouse and Colossus-- not possible on higher difficulties but I got Metal casting w/ the oracle so it's very possible to do both here. I also have some forests left over as I didn't chop very much yet so the Colossus won't take long even though I don't have copper.

The known world:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3898/civ4screenshot0014ry9.jpg

An early war with Wang Kon turtled him and kept him from hooking up the copper. I am researching iron, but the elephants below me will be nice for taking over sitting bull. Construction would be a priority if I continued. I have only two cities but I just completed a settler since I concentrated on wonders and religions early as opposed to REXing.

My techs:
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/2857/civ4screenshot0016my2.jpg

I believe I went Polytheism, fishing, mining, BW, monotheism... after that not so sure how I did it. Basically concentrated on religion, wonders, and getting out a settler or two.

I'll explain my start a little more. HC's traits and UU/UB are really made for a rather peaceful start with a burst towards a tech lead. My game had starting with lot's of wonders with an early religion (in this case judaism). The idea is to get to the middle age era the fastest and leverage that advantage as much as possibe militarily. Fast teching, wonders, fewer cities. No early war mongering for me.

HC's traits and UU/UB are really made for a rather peaceful start with a burst towards a tech lead.

The all-conquering Quecha is made for a peaceful start?! Now I've heard everything. :lol:

Decided to go for the Civil Service slingshot. Research was gonna be the holdup, but on noble, i knew it would allow for more techs to be researched anyway.
My tech order was:
Fishing...for the boats
Mining....for the mines
BW........Wanted to chop and whip
AH.........hook up cows
Iron Working...maybe early, but its noble
Wheel.....duh
Pottery....whipped a granary
Masonry...built GW before I found no barbs...a waste
Poly.........heading to priesthood
Priesthood..for oracle
Writing....whipped library
Math

I founded 2 other cities near gems so i could up the research. I also stole 2 workers from the Indians.....that was a huge help.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/97311/Incan.jpg

As of 975BC...I am 10 turns from Pyramids, 10 turns from Oracle, and 14 turns from COL. I had to slow down the oracle build in the second city to get CS in time, but it worked out. I hadnt played noble in ages, so getting allmost all the wonders from a beaucracy capitol was kinda cool.

For comparison purposes on early start, noble level may not be the best place to compare. Reasoning is simple. You cannot always apply a noble level early game strategy to high levels like immortal, but you can always apply a immortal level early game strategy to lower levels. Thus a better medium for comparison would be a high level.

The same thing goes for no barbarians. Also, I think 1 AD is the best date up until where people should play. 1000 BC isnt really enough time for some early game strategies, so the start up to 1000 BC may look weak if your doing something a more lengthy beeline/strategy or your REXXING to cut off land.

The thread is a nice idea though.

The all-conquering Quecha is made for a peaceful start?! Now I've heard everything. :lol:

I tend to use the Quencha as very cheap defensive units to replace archers. Very good until barbarian axes come along. Then again I am used to huge boards so a quencha rush is usually not available given the distance to other AIs.

For comparison purposes on early start, noble level may not be the best place to compare. Reasoning is simple. You cannot always apply a noble level early game strategy to high levels like immortal, but you can always apply a immortal level early game strategy to lower levels. Thus a better medium for comparison would be a high level.

The same thing goes for no barbarians. Also, I think 1 AD is the best date up until where people should play. 1000 BC isnt really enough time for some early game strategies, so the start up to 1000 BC may look weak if your doing something a more lengthy beeline/strategy or your REXXING to cut off land.

The thread is a nice idea though.

I agree with this, but Immortal may be a bit high. I'd say most of the players on here are somewhere between prince/monarch/emperor, so the OP's idea was to play a level everyone could foreseeably contribute to. I for one would definitely get smoked on an immortal save! (Although it would be interesting to see what advanced players are doing from the beginning.)

I also agree with you that next time around it should be up to 1 AD.

The starts outlined above are all solid, but I would say not very imaginative... why not try something a little different. :D

I suggest a start that will use what you DO have from turn one, instead of focusing on what you don't have (fishing, mining, etc).

You start with mysticism, you are financial, you are on a lake and have seafood. Plus this is Noble, so the other Civs are not cheating on tech research.

This means you are an unstoppable dead set certainty to found an early religion, and probably both. Settle in place and work a lake or seafood tile first to get those commerce points. Your capital is shortly to become the religious and wealth capital of the world.

Once you have founded Bud and Hinduism (build warriors while you do, and go exploring) go for masonry and BW, quarry the stone and chop your way to stonehenge. You will generate a great prophet shortly, get your first shrine, and be well on your way to world power.

(Of course you will need fishing soon too, to get the food boosts).

For an example of how such a strat can really pay off - check this awesome thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=133492

It changed how I play Civ IV - the best lesson in making the most of your Civ's strengths that I have ever seen :king:

Huayna is Industrious. There is stone nearby. Going for the Pyramids may not be "imaginative," but it does "make the most of your Civ's strengths," in your words.

I spent a fair amount of time writing my post about my opening play. I'm sure it isn't the best. But I don't need you opining about my lack of "creativity," friend, when you yourself seem to advocate copying someone else's strategy, which doesn't seem terribly "creative" either. I also note that, unlike Spain/Cuba, the Incans are not spiritual and can't easily swap civics and religions, though being Financial would seem to dovetail with the multi-shrine strategy.

I can see a lot of ways to go with this start, which is probably why the OP posted this particular one in the first place. If you think you have a clever/good move, post it, and leave it at that.

For comparison purposes on early start, noble level may not be the best place to compare.

All openings offer good winning chances in amateur play.

Imho there are no lasting general gameplay lessons to be learned from noble, no barbarians, Incas. Unless you are doing something very specific like aiming to e.g. improve your launch times for fastest space race victory.

2000BC conquest victory using 27 unpromoted Quechuas.

2000BC conquest victory using 27 unpromoted Quechuas.

Hm, that's quite an opening. I don't think I'll play out my version after all. :lol:

Yes, next one up a level and to 1 AD. A Noble player can do the opening at Prince. A Prince player can do the opening at Monarch. It's later that things get tough, so OP, Prince would'nt knock out the Noble players.

2000BC conquest victory using 27 unpromoted Quechuas.

Nice. What was your build order?

Nice. What was your build order?

*Quechua .

Quechua rush won't work so well on noble, because they won't have archery for awhile. On noble you can leverage an enormous empire early.

I can see a lot of ways to go with this start, which is probably why the OP posted this particular one in the first place.

This is exactly the case. :)

For comparison purposes on early start, noble level may not be the best place to compare. Reasoning is simple. You cannot always apply a noble level early game strategy to high levels like immortal, but you can always apply a immortal level early game strategy to lower levels. Thus a better medium for comparison would be a high level.


The start came up during testing and wasn't actually "designed", but until now we really have some interesting opening play.
I fully agree on your reasoning but:
When I first did something like this (I gave a start file to some fellow players instead of posting it online) it was emperor, but problem was, 2 out of 3 refused to play on that level.
But if people are interested we can always repeat on a higher level. :)


2000BC conquest victory using 27 unpromoted Quechuas.

Way too easy for you, Dave :lol:
We did something like this in old Civ3, Arathorn's immortal SG, building just ~30 immortals und crushing the world. (on regent, which is ~noble)

*Quechua .

:))))))))))))

While building quechua is the right way to go for this map, I took the opportunity to play a quick demo game showing how to develop a strong capital.

The important steps are:

- Monarchy for unlimited happy cap
- Oracle for Philosophy which allowed me to produce two GS with Pacifism, the first founded Academy and the second bulbed most of Education
- CS for Bureaucracy
- improving health as much as possible, moving to the river, preserving two forests, building aquaduct and the Hanging Gardens, and trading resources
- not neglecting research buildings; monasteries are good for such a capital




http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106800/screen.jpg



http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/106800/cap.jpg

No way... Liberalism in the BC? That's... That's... I don't know what, but that certainly is.

Wow, DaveMcW and Unconquered Sun those starts are pretty amazing. Well done.

Unconquered Sun, would you say that kind of start is doable on monarch as well? I haven't checked out the save yet, but did you basically treat it like an OCC game, i.e. focusing on wonders and building up the city as opposed to expanding? Just getting 16 citizens alone by 1 AD is pretty impressive.

On a general note I have a question for both of you and others in this thread. When you guys play, are you really micromanaging your games and taking a long time with your turns to optimize everything? Or do you find you can still perform impressive starts and games with a more laid-back approach. I'm asking because I'm the type who tends to fly through my games, and while trying to manage my empire at optimum efficiency I still find myself playing "fast and loose". This sometimes leads to mistakes along the way, some worse than others (such as discovering CS and forgetting to switch to bureaucracy!). There was a thread on this a while back but I think it may be relevant here as I'm kinda curious.

On a general note I have a question for both of you and others in this thread who are fairly advanced players. When you guys play, are you really micromanaging your games and taking a long time with your turns to optimize everything? Or do you find you can still perform impressive starts and games with a more laid-back approach. I'm asking because I'm the type who tends to fly through my games, and while trying to manage my empire at optimum efficiency I still find myself playing "fast and loose". This sometimes leads to mistakes along the way, some worse than others (such as discovering CS and forgetting to switch to bureaucracy!). There was a thread on this a while back but I think it may be relevant here as I'm kinda curious.

I am a monarch player, been playing since CIV IV came out. Whether that's advanced or not I'll let yo decide.

I flew through this game although I tried to pace it. I normally play marathon games because I feel the game (and civilization) flies through too fast otherwise. Marathon games I tend to think between turns which leads me to not make many mistakes but I nake enough of them anyway.

BTW, I did not realize this game had no barbarians so I was a little more cautious in early expansion.

I am a monarch player, been playing since CIV IV came out. Whether that's advanced or not I'll let yo decide.

I flew through this game although I tried to pace it. I normally play marathon games because I feel the game (and civilization) flies through too fast otherwise. Marathon games I tend to think between turns which leads me to not make many mistakes but I nake enough of them anyway.

BTW, I did not realize this game had no barbarians so I was a little more cautious in early expansion.

I actually edited my previous post and took out "advanced" as I am curious about everyones play, didn't want to make it sound exclusive or unreasonably subjective. Sorry 'bout that.

Interesting point on the marathon play- I generally play monarch/normal as I can't stand waiting so long for my units to be built/techs to be researched, but maybe I'll give epic another try to minimize my inevitable mistakes/misplays.

I only focused on a demo capital development (which I played really fast). If not OCC, do expand. Capital development can go pretty much the same way, only a bit slower for some settlers and more workers.

Interesting point on the marathon play- I generally play monarch/normal as I can't stand waiting so long for my units to be built/techs to be researched, but maybe I'll give epic another try to minimize my inevitable mistakes/misplays.

My games (huge maps too) generally are taking me a week in BTS (about twice as long was warlords). Like I said, I really hate seeing the ages fly by. I am a little older that most here, and prefer NOT to see life pass by so fast ;)

... (epic speed helps reduce) mistakes/misplays.

I'm not sure about that. It can be hard to recover from a series of bad mistakes on Epic. A bad tech order early can kill you at the slower speeds. If you start with a civ with few/no worker techs (Spain, Aztec, Celt, etc.), it is a huge decision early whether to go for a religion, get worker techs, etc.

On the other hand, Epic/Marathon do make you appreciate the value of a turn. Since (theoretically) you're getting more done with each turn on Normal, yeah, it feels like less margin for error when you're going faster.

I play Epic because I enjoy the military aspects of the game and my units don't go obsolete as fast.

On a general note I have a question for both of you and others in this thread. When you guys play, are you really micromanaging your games and taking a long time with your turns to optimize everything? Or do you find you can still perform impressive starts and games with a more laid-back approach. I'm asking because I'm the type who tends to fly through my games, and while trying to manage my empire at optimum efficiency I still find myself playing "fast and loose".

For me, it just depends. I tend to micromanage much more in the early game because for me if I can get far enough there I can relax later on and cruise to victories. I also find the early game more fun to micro since there is less overall cities and it does not take way too much time to change your cities around. Just as an example, sometimes in my games, I will take 4 hours to play up until 1 AD, and then only like 4 more hours to finish the game off (For space race/cultural/diplomatic). War games just take more time in general.

I also tend to micromanage more in succesion games and RB tournament games then I would do in my solo games that I am just playing for myself.

I only focused on a demo capital development (which I played really fast). If not OCC, do expand. Capital development can go pretty much the same way, only a bit slower for some settlers and more workers.

Even then, i can't figure for the life of me how you can get Lib at 1 AD ^^
I must be missing something, and i'd like to learn what it is =P

Percy...Unconquered Sun's 1 city 1AD Liberalism is more of a paper tiger in my opinion. This is not how you could win with the higher score than someone else who actually built cities or conquered neighbors. I took Railroad with Liberalism from my game. More expensive than even Democracy. If this was a OCC, then I would say good job...but its not.

I know, but even then, it does mean that his research was blazing fast. I mean, i wish i could do that in a OCC...

Even then, i can't figure for the life of me how you can get Lib at 1 AD ^^
I must be missing something, and i'd like to learn what it is =P

I'm with you, I wanted to know exactly how this was even possible... So I tried it taking hints from his research path and log. Here's my detailed results... BTW, since I'm not nearly as skilled, I reloaded a couple times to get better results! Not ashamed to admit that I need the handicap to even come close to that level of skill.

0: Move settler SE, Warrior sleeps 1 turn
1: Found Cuzco, Warrior pops hut for Fishing (!), first build is work boat working a 1f2h tile to get the work boat out fast, researching mining -> BW
5: Quech pops hut for 23g
13: work boat done, queue another, working improved clam tile to grow
16: Cuzco grows, working imp clam tile and 1f2h tile now
17: Quech pops hut for 48g
18: Adopt slavery, begin researching Sailing
24: Cuzco grows, add 2f1h tile temporarily
26: Putting 1 turn into a worker, but will switch to lighthouse next turn
27: Sailing is done, begin researching The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing (this is different than Unconquered Sun). Working 2 4f3c and 1 1f2h tiles
30: Quech pops hut for 37g
31: Wheel is researched, whip lighthouse to completion, restart Worker
32: Working 2 5f3c tiles now
35: Pottery is researched, start on writing
36: Worker is done, he will chop a granary, mine 2 hills, and road to the stone.
42: 1 pop whipping the "Terrace", next up is another work boat
43: Writing is researched, starting on meditation -> Priesthood, warrior pops hut for hunting
45: Mine is done, working 2 5f3c tiles and 1 1f3h tile
50: 2nd mine is done, working 2 5f3c, 1 3f3c, 1f3h, 1 unhappy citizen
51: Priesthood is finished, researching Monarchy, work boat is done and moved, bulding a library that will be whipped to completion asap
52: 3 pop whipped lib start on Quechua for happiness
53: Working 3 5f3c tiles and 1 1f3h tile.
55: Hired 1 scientist, working 1 5f3c tile and 2 1f3h tiles for a bit. Whip will be ready again in 7 turns.
56: Quechua done, building another
58: 1 more quechua, 1 more in queue
59: Scientist fired, working 2 5f3c tiles, 2 1f3h tiles. Growth in 4 turns, but I will whip in 3.
60: Quechua done, 1 more in queue... 1 turn of hammers than I whip it into the oracle.
62: Quechua done, 15 overflow into the oracle, worker moved to chop some lumber into it as well. Working all food+commerce tiles now, monarchy will be done in 4 turns so red faced citizens will soon be gone
66: Monarchy done, researching CoL, in anarchy but setup city with 2 scientists, 3 5f3c and 2 3f3c tiles.
74: Oracle in 2, CoL in 2... Scientists were fired last turn to get everything times properly
76: CoL, confucianism, The Oracle, Philosophy, Taoism, convert to taoism... 2 scientists rehired
77: Civics change to Pacifism, time to get those GS's... Waiting on caste system til I whip the monastaries.
78: Researching alphabet
82: Both monastaries have been whipped, GP due next turn
83: GS born, he built an acadamy, building a couple quechuas
84: Traded for IW and AH, can't get masonry... So I'm gonna research it quick, than head for math/civil service
85: Civics to caste system
86: Running 6 scientists for 5 turns
91: GS born, all scientists fired... Building aquaduct - moai stones
103: CS done, researching paper... Working 3 scientists and chopping out moai stones
107: I reloaded to this point and starved out another GS when I realized how close I wasd at turn 112 or so.
109: Paper done, used 2 GS to fully bulb education, obviously this isn't something anyone should or would do in a normal game! Building science through liberalism now
119: Liberalism researched in 100 ad, only 4 turns behind Unconquered Sun! :cool:

Well, there it is. I learned quite a bit from doing that, hopefully some of my fellow mortals can as well!

Very interesting thorban, thanks a lot =)