Back off BABEs!

Nothing for you to see here. That goes for those of you who don't play as well. I'm sure you just came here by mistake, so just use the door behind you please. :)

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Ok, still here? That means you're no BABE, so you can safely read on.

Niklas' start:

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/3319/startuw6.jpg

First city founded on the middle tile. As I noted in the other thread, far too good for my liking. It means the tech pace will be higher, which will only benefit the other team. On the plus side I'll be able to build maaaaaaany Jags. :D

Go Counselors!! :)

Thanks for posting this Niklas - are you and cubsfan6506 allowed to talk to each other before you meet in game to coordinate research paths, etc? In normal multiplayer obviously you wouldn't, but in deathmatch games like this, it seems people often play that you can.

Man! How can you not like your start? Jags will still be useful for a long time.

Is that water a sea or lake? Let's see some BABE :hammer:

Are you sure ti's wise to post this in here.

Go Counselors!! :)
:D
Thanks for posting this Niklas - are you and cubsfan6506 allowed to talk to each other before you meet in game to coordinate research paths, etc? In normal multiplayer obviously you wouldn't, but in deathmatch games like this, it seems people often play that you can.
I have assumed that we could talk to each other, I hope I haven't broken any rules by that. We discussed some tactics early, which even influenced our civ choices (or cubsfan's at least). I've also (obviously) shown my start here which cubsfan can see. I assume the BABEs will do the same.
Man! How can you not like your start? Jags will still be useful for a long time.
But with a worse start, Jags would be useful even longer! :p
It's a timing issue really though, if I can find and harass the bears early enough then it won't matter. But with a harder start, it would take longer for them to research key techs, something I intend to skip completely. ;)
Is that water a sea or lake? Let's see some BABE :hammer:
Thanks for the cheers! :D The water is salt, so I'm close to a coast. That won't influence my strategy much though, since I assume it's a pangea map.
Are you sure ti's wise to post this in here.
I trust the BABEs not to read this thread. And it will bring so much more enjoyment to those not in the game to read about our BABE :hammer:-ing. :D

:wow: VERY nice start...

Let's hope the babes don't have a start like this then! :D

Or that they don't know how to play its strengths well enough. ;)

I'm beginning to appreciate the start a bit more now. I've just calculated how to have 5 vJags out by turn 20, a second town settled by turn 26, and pumping 1-turn vJags by turn 36. :D

Heres my start.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x80/cubsfan6506/untitled-7.jpg
Not quite as nice.
Any ideas as to what I should do with the workers.

I would irrigate the cow, then mine the BG. Playing as an AGR, it looks as if you could have a 4 turn settler pump. Although, that may not be that great as this a deathmatch pangaea.

I'd check if I'd chop the forest for a barracks.
But maybe after an irrigation and an initial reg warrior.

I'd also start with a warrior and an irrigation of the cow. Chopping and mining the silk later will boost your research nicely. I assume you'll go full speed for IW.

The map is 60x60 I presume, so I reckon I should have found everyone by turn 40 at the latest.

one thing to remember - Enkidu don't upgrade to swords.

Update from Cub's turn.

All I did was press enter :)
It was rough, but someone had to do it!

Current Empire Status:
Building an EkWarrior - 2 turns left
Irrigating the Cow
Researching The Wheel??


I was a bit surprised to see The Wheel being studied. I was thinking Iron Working would be a better choice. Probably doesn't make sense to switch now? Of course, with the rapid game pace, maybe it's better to consider those 4 turns a sunk cost, and just move on?

Anyway – didn't want to make that much of a momentous decision on someone else's game.

Thoughts from the gallery?
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/StatlerAndWaldorf.jpg
Statler: You've got to get "a-round" to the wheel at some point!"
Waldorf: Yeah, you'd make a fortune! A wheel of fortune! Ha!

:eek: Definitely throw away TW, it'll do us no good at all. It's 4 turns wasted towards IW, but let's not waste any more than that!

@GW: :rotfl:

Sumeria - Turn 5 Update:
Ur: Building EkWarrior – due next turn.
Ur set to grow next turn.
Done irrigating the cow!
Dumped research on the Wheel
Now researching Iron Working, 30 turns to go.


Screenshot!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Sumeria_05.jpg

Suggestions on what to do next with that worker?
Chopping and Mining the silk has been suggested, and that makes sense to me.

You might want to road the cow before you leave it.

Yeah I'd second roading the cow, and then chop and mine the silk.

Does that river to your southeast flow over or under the ocean before it continues back on land?

Good eye, Chamnix. But that's a tsunami, not a river. :D (see post 10)

@ Chamnix: Is the river under or over the ocean? I think this will clear that up:

Simon: Unger, didn't you serve under Oveur in the Air Force?
Unger: Not directly. Technically, Dunn was under Oveur and I was under Dunn.
Dunn: Yep.
Simon: So, Dunn, you were under Oveur and over Unger.
Unger: Yep.
Clarence Oveur: That's right. Dunn was over Unger and I was over Dunn.
Unger: So, you see, both Dunn and I were under Oveur, even though I was under Dunn.
Clarence Oveur: Dunn was over Unger, and I was over Dunn.

:)

Reading that makes my head hurt like I'm Ung-Oveur :).

Woah there Chamnix. We don't want these jokes to be Oveur-Dunn!

:)

Will you two please flirt somewhere else :rolleyes:

:wow: Never noticed that!

It's probably a fresh water aqueduct over the sea? :crazyeye:

Now Now Peter – don't be jealous. :nono:

I'm in way over my monarch-level-player head here, if I have to use my svelte body to attract help from the uber-leet players like Chamnix here… so be it. :p



Sumeria - Turn 6 Update:
Ur: Finish EkWarrior – Start Ek Warrior due in 3
Ur grows to size 2, now unhappy! Yowza. I wanna go back to Monarch :cry:
Luxury Rate increased to 10%, citizen assigned to work Forest Silk.
Now laying a road on the cow!
Time to Iron Working Plunges to 20 turns. Thank you silk.


Screenshot!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/Sumeria_06.jpg


Help and ideas are always appreciated.
I'm new to Emperor or Deity or whatever we're playing on here.

:salute:

You're doing just fine. :)

Keep walking north and you'll find me. That's probably the best way for us to make contact, and I can send out my fast runners to find the bears' dens, probably in the west.

Wee, I have a first Jag! :D

I would have given a screenshot, but it was corrupted so you'll see one next turn instead. Exploration should be pretty fast now.

Sumeria - Turn 7 Update:
Ur: EkWarrior due in 2
Worker laying a road on the cow!
Current EkWarrior is headed North.
Science @ 90% - Iron Working in 19 turns.


The screenshot goody this time comes from the F11 screen!
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/07-F11.jpg

I’ll post the screenshot of it next time, but I moved 1 more tile directly north, and sighted a mountain. I may deviate slightly off true north to catch the sights from that mountain.

:salute:

For those that are still reading this thread?

Sumeria - Turn 8 Update:
Ur: EkWarrior due in 1
Worker done laying a road on the cow!
Current EkWarrior is headed North.
Science @ 90% - Iron Working in 15 turns, thanks to the road.


Time for an Empire shot…
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/08-Empire.jpg


As you can see above, I’m planning to climb that mountain next turn. I know that normally you want to stick with moving on the diagonals, but I usually make an exception for Mountains that are just 1 off my course.
Anyone disagree with that move?


Got a shot of that Jag Niklas? :)

The promised exploration screenie:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3747/007exploresk2.png

By the minimap, I predict your Enkidu will meet me pretty soon. I do the same as you, veer off the course for mountains or hills. Last turn the Jag took a detour and climbed the hill 2NW of Teno, to scout possible sites for the second city.

For those that are still reading this thread?

Don't worry, we're still here, just lurking!

And of course you should climb that mountain. When I'm exploring, I always walk from mountain to mountain. Maybe that's not efficient either though. Stick to your course as much as possible, but when you see a mountain, go climb it!

:pat:
I'm still following this nailbiter as well :coffee:

Well – I'm getting settled here in Cub's chair. :)
I'm going to have to start naming these units…

Sumeria - Turn 9 Update:
Ur: Finishes EkWarrior, next one due in 3
Worker moves to the silk, prepares to chop.
Explorer EkWarrior is climbs a mountain, views some floodplains.
New EkWarrior fortifies in the Capital, pacifies the unhappy people.
Science back up to @ 100% - Iron Working in 12 turns (saved 2 turns)


Empire shot:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/09-Empire.jpg

City of Ur:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/09-Ur.jpg


Keeping the EkWarrior for defense not only offers me some better safety in the capital, just in case this map is smaller than expected, but also allowed me to shave another 2 turns on Iron Working by cranking my Science back up to 100% :) … for now anyway.

I've moved my worker to the silk, and plan to chop, then road, then mine that tile.

Current plan for Ur is 1 more EkWarrior (done in 3 who will also go on MP duty), and then build a barracks to take advantage of the shields from the chop.
After that, I guess I can build another EkWarrior to explore to my west, and provide security for an eventual 2nd city.
I'm considering using the chop to power out a quick second city… but maybe that's overly risky in a Pangaea deathmatch game?

What do people think?

Not sure I'd have done the silks before the BG, but both need to be improved sometime soon.

You've probably already figured this out but Ur is a 4-turn settler factory, by just mining 3 BG and building a granary. I'd be tempted to pumped out a settler then go for the factory. Find a spot for a worker factory and let the rest of the nation produce barracks and units.

Is the investment in a granary worth it?

That's 6 Enkidus :eek:

It really depends if they expect this to be settled in the Ancient Age. If so, then I agree that it is waste. If this is going to be an late AA bloodbath, then this team is at a big disadvantage with EW(1-2-1) & JW(1-1-2) vs MW(3-1-2) & Immortals (4-2-1). Even with superior numbers they'll get sliced and diced. An early AA win is tough as Persia will have spears from the start (neither Jags or EW have a good shot against them). Their best shot would be to overrun the Iroquois before MW are available. Then they could work hit and run tactics on Persia until they can get enough units to make him fight a 2 front war.

If on the other hand research and unit support becomes an issue, then having an extra 10+ cities would probably tip the issue. The traits of Sumer are AGR & SCI, so their strengths are growth and research. If the Aztecs used swarms of Jaguars to harass the opponents, pillaging improvements and killing workers and lightly defended settlers, while Sumer expanded to 15+ cities each with a barracks building swords/horses, even though the Aztecs would suffer a large number of unit losses, they would weaken both opponents to allow for a large number of attackers to crush the weakest of the two opponents. Once it's two on one, this one is probably over.

GW, the chop will finish one turn early in MP, so you'll get the shields on turn 3 already. So another Enkidu now would waste those shields completely. I might have opted for a granary, or possibly a barracks.

I agree totally with keeping the second Enkidu at home. I'll be much more efficient on scouting, and you'll be more efficient on research. Better to play the strengths of each.

@denyd: Beorn is playing Rome, not Persia, so no BW in the other team from the beginning. I'm hoping we'll have IW in time for me to locate his iron sources and block them. We need to win fast, true, and I'm hoping I can "worry" them enough to seriously hinder their expansion, pillaging tiles and harassing settlers, while the General can expand without fear.

So yes, I'm pro-granary. :)

oh... ugh. So - should I switch to a granery now?

Maybe the best thing to do would be to road first to buy time to finish the second EkWarrior, then chop.
I don't really want to delay that second EkWarrior, as it would require dropping my Science rate for more than 1 turn again.

Hmm, I was too quick there. You haven't started chopping yet, so the Enkidu will complete 2 turns after you start chopping, so the shields will come on the turn after that. My bad, and everything is alright. :)

And the Enkidu should complete in 2 turns instead of 3 anyway ;).

whew!

I think? :confused:

;)

Right, the town is growing, yet another detail I didn't pay attention to. :crazyeye:

ok - so I'm about to play the save here.

I plan to continue with the EkWarrior build, chop the forest, and NOT adjust my science rate back down, because I believe the city won't riot immediatly upon growing.

If I'm mistaken, please speak up asap! :) thanks for help... it's been too long! :D

Sumeria - Turn 10 Update:
Ur: EkWarrior, due in 2. (Growth next turn)
Worker (named “Farm Boy”) starts chop: eta 4 turns.
EkWarrior (named “Enkindu Ambassador”) heads north
EkWarrior (named “Enkindu Homefront”) continues pacification patrol
Science at @ 100% - Iron Working in 11 turns


City of Ur:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/10-Ur.jpg

So - I think after this next Ekindu, I'll go for a quick chop-powered settler build, then a granary to get Ur into settler factory mode, and just hope the Bears don't show up too soon. With luck, they'll try to make contact with eachother before they head east looking for me.

I could try another Enkindu after the settler for a little extra security, and then go for the granary?

Hmm, me not like the looks of all these mountains. I hope they aren't everywhere, or my fast warriors will be significantly weakened. :scared:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/3456/010explorewg1.png

And water out in the west too. There better be a land lane somewhere...

hmm - that is ugly. Hopefully it's not a very wide range.

And I'm pretty sure there will be a land bridge... wouldn't be much of a pangea map if there isn't! :lol:

EDIT: maybe try climbing that mountain due South... might give a better idea of what we're looking at here.

Mountains do provide a nice defensive bonus for your Jags, but I agree they will slow down your expansion, but at least they're not jungle or marshland

Sumeria - Turn 11 Update:
Ur: EkWarrior ”BigD” finished. Start Granary (due in 10)
Worker“Farm Boy” continues chop: eta 3 turns.
“Enkindu Ambassador” heads further north
“Enkindu BigD” fortifies, pacifies new citizen.
Science still at @ 100% - Iron Working in 9 turns


Empire shot:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/11-Empire.jpg

Very good timing on the city of Ur. It grew to size 3 interturn, and the governor assigned the citizen to work a 2 shield tile, finishing the EkWarrior a turn early… so he immediately went on pacification duty. Science stays at 100%! Plus I shave another turn off the journey to iron working, thanks to that commerce from the river tile.

Granary is now being built, due in 10, but it’ll be much faster than that, thanks to the chop.
Oops… just realized as I’m writing this that I meant to do a settler, not a Granary! :blush: Oh well, I’ll switch it next turn. There’s not a penalty for that on this difficulty level is there?

My culture expands, and I spot some furs to my south. So now I have to decide if I want my settler to go get those furs, or head for the floodplains for faster growth/worker factory duty.
I’m thinking the luxury from the furs would be very helpful, and if I build on that hill right by furs, I can shuffle EkWarriors between my cities in a single turn and improve my defense in case of an early attack if Niklas fails to keep them busy enough.

Thoughts on that?

Go for the flood plains first - you can have a Worker road to the furs and have them automatically on Turn 100.

Nah, I'd go for the furs. If settle on the furs you'd have 2 BG and furs available right away. The capital will be using 3 mined BG (NE, SW and NW-W) and the cow at size 4 (7 shields) and then the mined silks (assuming a standard GL tile under the silks) on growth to size 5. That's a 4 turn settler factory. Meanwhile city 2 would have 2 mined BG, 3 forrests & a mined GL for the the magic 10spt (1 lost to corruption). Once developed, that city would produce a Vet EW every turn (or a Vet archer every other). Also with once the GL is roaded you'd have furs available in both cities which will speed the research.

I agree with denyd completely. The possible long term gains of settling next to the furs instead of on top of it are too long term for this game.

I would also wait for a while longer with those flood plains since they are so far from your capitol. Possibly a 4th or 5th town could go up there.

@denyd: Good point on the mountains as defense positions. If there are mountains near our enemies, that's a very good thing.

Sumeria - Turn 12 Update:
Ur: Switched to Settler (due 4)
Worker“Farm Boy” continues chop: eta 2 turns.
“Enkindu Ambassador” heads further north
Science still at @ 100% - Iron Working in 8 turns


Empire shot:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/12-Empire.jpg

Very excellent advice on settling on top of the Furs. I’ll certainly do that. Thanks Denyd & Niklas :hatsoff:
I think I’m finally starting to get my mind wrapped around the higher difficulty and much shorter time horizon for everything in this game.

Settler will be done here very soon thanks to the chop, then it’s a quick skip down to the Furs for city #2.

I plan to start another Enkindu Warrior in Ur next to help get my defense up faster, then a granary build and then it's on settler duty.

New city will build an Enkindu, then maybe a worker(?) then a barracks and it's on to Military Factory duty.

Or at least that's my current plan. Feedback?

I’m hoping that the forest Enkindu Ambassador moved into is the one at the bottom of Niklas’ screenshots… so meeting should be in the next turn or two.

Comments/thoughts?

Superimposing your minimap on mine shows this:

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/9084/minimapsbs7.png

So we're likely to meet up very soon, though maybe not in 2 turns. Plan looks good to me. :)

Exploration shot from turn 13, with your minimap superimposed:

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/971/013exploreqt1.png

I also made an interesting discovery - we already know each other! Most likely killercane has engineered the scenario that way and we just didn't see it, since I don't think we could have met up yet. :hmm:

Yes you should be allied and also have contacts with the other two in a locked war. This was intended to leave war happiness as a moot point. If you dont have contact with BABE then that sucks and owes to my limited abilities as a mapmaker.

The BABE teams don't show up on the diplo screen, so I guess that's a no. No worries though, we'll handle our war the old-fashioned way. :mischief:

Sumeria - Turn 13 Update:
Ur: Settler (due in 3… actually next turn)
Worker“Farm Boy” finished chop? Shields show up next turn?
“Enkindu Ambassador” heads further north
Science still at @ 100% - Iron Working in 7 turns
Bronze Working sent to Niklas


Diplomacy:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/13-Diplo.jpg

Empire shot:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/13-Empire.jpg

Since I do, in fact, have contact with Niklas, I've now sent him the secret of Bronze Working. Hopefully he won't need the spearmen for defense, but just in case! :)

The chopping is kinda weird in PBEM… the forest is gone, but I didn't get any shields. He wasn't due to finish till next turn anyway – so I trust it will all work out on the inter-turn.

Meeting up with Niklas is now a much lower priority... any ideas for where I should go exploring? I'm thinking maybe to the East, to reveal what's south of Niklas for a possible second city for him?

:salute:

The chopping is kinda weird in PBEM… the forest is gone, but I didn't get any shields. He wasn't due to finish till next turn anyway – so I trust it will all work out on the inter-turn.



You got the shields already - the time needed to complete the settler didn't decrease because you were working the forest for extra shields.

On turn 12, you had 6 shields in the bin, and the settler was due in 4 at 6 spt.

With the forest chopped, you are now working a grassland instead of the forest so you are only getting 4 spt. You have 6+4+10 = 20 in the bin and 4 spt = settler in 3 now.

:salute:

oh... Thanks Chamnix! :blush:

I guess I should have switched that citizen to another forest tile. That's what I get for trying to play in a hurry before work!

New exploration shot from turn 15:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9113/015explorely2.png

Seems the coast extends far south. I don't like this one bit. :hmm:

In other news Abstraction has finished its barracks and will now build three vJags over the next 6 turns, then a settler. I was hoping to have found the proper route by now, but it seems I'll have to keep looking for a while longer.

Are you sure that's coast? Maybe it's a lake?

It'll be very interesting if there's just 1 or 2 choke points of access to the other side... would make it a very high priority for Summeria to get a city over the asap and fill it up with Enkindus to make sure your Jags can get over to the other side.

Is that your CIV experience talking again? If Sumeria builds a city on a choke, poor Aztecs can't pass no matter how good allies we are. If there are choke points, all the better for us since I'm the most likely to find them, and claim them, first.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x80/cubsfan6506/untitled.jpg

Please some help on where I should build my second city.

I would build it right on top of the furs - It would be on a river, have instant access to a couple bg and could still use the cow if the opportunity presented itself

You also need to get a 2nd worker ASAP as you need to road and mine at least 3 BG tiles. Once that work is complete (and there's a granary in Ur) you'll have a 4-turn settler factory. Have that city pump out settlers while every one else builds military. If you can find a 2nd 5fpt site, make that a worker factory.

I agree with denyd, like we've said before, put the town on the furs.

Well well, whaddya know, seems like there is hope for a land connection not too far away after all:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2682/016exploreap2.png

Full speed ahead! :salute:

The settler is moving towards the furs.

Keeps looking promising:

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6739/017exploreho1.png

:eek: :eek: Encounter! :eek: :eek:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6222/018encounterhk2.png

So this road leads to Rome, very very nice. For now, my scout is more valuable than his, and I don't want to give him any WH. So I evade for now:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/848/018evasionyo9.png

He will likely move E and I can move SW-W next turn, giving him no chance to strike me.

Now it gets interesting!

This encounter shows the major power of the jag fast scout ability... and the need to beat Rome to that choke point!

It's actually not a true choke point, since you can move straight east from where the Roman warrior stands. So to block it you would need two units. But yes, it would be great if we could get some Enkidus up here... But there might be a similar land bridge down south as well, so I would suggest to cubsfan that his next Enkidu goes scouting west.

Settled the furs, sent an enkidu west, worker in 1.

Strange, the bearskin warrior has moved W instead of E:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/4352/019encounterru8.png

I feel safely protected by the river at my current location.

lots of rivers over water around there.... there must be strange spirits around!

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2435/020killedfh2.png

:cry:

My next scout, a vet, is five turns from that point counting this one. He is followed by two more two turns behind. They won't keep me out for too long. :evil:

Will you have a second city before your Golden Age starts?

Right, he was trying to start my GA, I hadn't even considered that! Need I say this is my first (non-MTDG) multiplayer game? :blush:

As for having a second town, I most certainly hope so. I will settle my second town on turn 27, and this was turn 20. It won't matter much though, my GA will not do much for me whenever it comes. I'm just hoping I can make sure that the others won't get any GA at all, by pillaging their roads. ;)

Right, he was trying to start my GA, I hadn't even considered that! Need I say this is my first (non-MTDG) multiplayer game? :blush:

As for having a second town, I most certainly hope so. I will settle my second town on turn 27, and this was turn 20. It won't matter much though, my GA will not do much for me whenever it comes. I'm just hoping I can make sure that the others won't get any GA at all, by pillaging their roads. ;)
And then what is plan B?

Plan B is to spam out Jags 1/turn for a long while, paid for by the money I'm hoarding now, and road to the front with workers built from my second town. These will harass the BABEs to ensure they can't expand properly.

Plan C is to upgrade some of the Jags to swords, to go for the kill. Though we'll see how that goes, lots of water will flow before that time comes.

So to recap:

Plan A: Jag rush
Plan B: Continue jag rush?:mischief:

I prefer the term intensify. ;)

Some would equate that to a surge :lol:

But in all plans, the goal is to not let the enemy get out of the Ancient age, correct?

Doesn't Rome only need iron and iron working to be Jag proof?

That's exactly why I want to reach Rome before he gets the chance to connect his iron. We will have IW before him, so I will know where his sources are.

That's exactly why I want to reach Rome before he gets the chance to connect his iron. We will have IW before him, so I will know where his sources are.

Very clever. Better hope he doesn't settle on it though.

If he settles on it, there's still the possibility of pillaging roads. It's definitely a gamble, though - even a couple of spears will make the resource-denial campaign problematic.

Fortunately, Niklas just has to harass the BABEs enough to keep them stunted and focused on military defense while Cubsfan can expand like mad.

Well, I will have a lot of Jags, so if I can take the initiative and reach his iron sources first, I should be fine. But yes, it's a gamble, but it's definitely the best way to take advantage of the Jags IMO.

Maybe that's why I never like Aztecs, because I didn't utilize that strategy. I think I'll give it a try sometime, thanks. :thumbsup:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x80/cubsfan6506/untitled-2.jpg
I started researching a new tech. Niklass do you want Iron.

With 3 mined BG & 2 forest tiles (+ the 1 shield center), Sumer can produce 3 turn Vet Swords.

So hurry up and get Ur up an running as a settler factory and start spamming settlers & swords. 3-4 Vet EW with 10 swords should be able to do a lot of damage.

BTW: Ur should almost always be doing 5fpt. Until you complete the granary, that's 4-turn growth. You might find it helpful to add 1-2 workers with all the work to be done.

Hmm, no I don't want iron just yet. Having it would mean that if my GA is triggered, not unlikely, I could no longer build Jags. I'll yell when I feel the time is ripe.

Great that you have local iron though. As denyd says, get Sumer up to 10 spt to build 3-turn swords. And get Ur up as a 4-turn factory. That means build a granary asap.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1394/022encounterpv6.png

Let's see if I get my GA right away. :rolleyes:

Hmm, no I don't want iron just yet. Having it would mean that if my GA is triggered, not unlikely, I could no longer build Jags. I'll yell when I feel the time is ripe.


You could accept the iron working tech but not connect any iron resource, this will still allow you to build jags instead of swords

Right, of course! I shouldn't try to think too early in the morning. :blush:

Pass the IW my way cubsfan! :D

Yes, 1 PM is early in the morning for me, that's about when I finish my breakfast. :p

I don't know if this matters but if not taking IW means that the other team will have to research it longer since they have contact with you and not your teammate, presumably.

How do i turn the second town into a settler factory.

The first town, Ur, should be the settler factory. It needs a granary and +5 fpt, which you will get from working the cow and no 1f tiles. The following sequence should work just fine:

3.5->4.0: (City Center), Cow, Silks, mined BG, forest on growth => 7 (7)
4.0->4.5: (CC), Cow, Silks, 2x mined BG => 7 (14)
4.5->5.0: (CC), Cow, Silks, 2x mined BG, forest on growth => 9 (23)
5.0->5.5: (CC), Cow, Silks, 2x mined BG, lake => 7 (30)

Takes a little bit of micromanaging, making sure that the citizens are assigned to the right tiles each turn, but I assume you do that anyway. ;)

So, what you need to fix is two mined BGs for your capitol, and a granary.

Sumer should be a military town. Build a barracks, connect your iron, and start pumping out swords. To get up to 10 spt (actually 11 because of corruption) you want to mine its three BGs. That together with a forest and the iron and the city center should give you the necessary 11 spt at size 5.

Btw, skip Warrior Code, you can have it from me. Go for The Wheel instead (again). Not because we need the horses, but because we want to know where their sources are.

I'm with cubsfan on this one - I would make Sumer the settler factory and Ur the military factory, but I'm just trying to cause trouble :p.

Well – Cubsfan is playing quite a bit different than I would be…

I didn’t want to mess with what he’s doing, since I’m probably only going to be playing 1 or maybe 2 turns for him.

Both workers were done with projects and standing on BGs, so they both started to mine.
Ur and Sumer are both building more Ekindus – so they continue… though this will take Cubs 1 over his unit support limit.
With 2 luxury items, there’s no need for 2 units in Ur – so I send the one that’s standing around to go explore the South-west. Other EkWarriors climb mountains – giving an even better idea of the likely shape of this world.

If there’s another passage to the south, as seems likely, maybe Cubs’ two southern EkWarriors can block that passage off till he can get a settler down there?

Research is set to Alphabet – so I let it continue.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/24-Empire.jpg

Hope I didn’t mess anything up too bad! :)

My only complaint is that Alphabet probably wasn't a concious choice by cubsfan, but rather what the "advisor" auto-assigned when he received Warrior Code which he was researching before. A switch to The Wheel would be a lot more useful.

I agree that there's likely to be another passage in the south, and finding it should have high priority.

On my own side, I'm finally ready to roll again, and exploring unknown lands:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9117/025explorehh9.png
Lots of interesting rivers, and grassland composed solely of BGs. Quite incredible, but a bit too far to be harnessed usefully. Good thing my own lands are also full of 'em BGs. :D

I took your image from above and made an overlay of my own zoomed-out world:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8488/025overlaysh2.png
As you can see (if you look closely), I have my first settler out. He's going to settle on the hill 2NW of Abstraction, to share the tiles I will improve there. The GA cut me some slack with respect to what tiles to improve, so my worker can walk three turns to improve the northern BGs and maybe irrigate a FP instead of mining the (non-river) BGs in the south.

My only complaint is that Alphabet probably wasn't a concious choice by cubsfan, but rather what the "advisor" auto-assigned when he received Warrior Code which he was researching before.

oh! I didn’t even consider that. :blush:

Well – should I switch to The Wheel on this next turn then?

Yeah, we won't ever have any use for Alphabet or anything that follows down that path. So beakers there are really wasted. The Wheel at least gives us some practical use.

I'm thinking that after TW there aren't really any more useful techs for us. HBR maybe, as horses move faster than swords, which could come in handy if Whomp manages to get away scot free to get some MWs.

Ok – so I decided to begin the revolution :lol:

Alphabet switched to The Wheel, due in 9.
Ur stops building an EkWarrior, and starts on a Granary
Summer stops building its EkWarrior, and starts a Barracks.

Summeria really doesn’t need any more units at the moment with plenty of happiness from luxury items, no threat from the North – since Niklas has that cleared out, and I’ve already got to EkWarriros headed for the (assumed) Southern passage.
What we need now is infrastructure! :D

Here’s the big picture:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/25-Empire.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/10/027exploreky5.png
The bridge seems to be fairly long and winding. But I can't be far now, the X marks the spot to where the Roman warrior had wandered by his turn 17. Since he didn't start with a warrior, it must have taken him at least 4 turns to build one, more likely 5. That means he had 12 turns of movement to reach the X, and it's 6 steps from where my trailblazer is currently at. That means I should see Rome in roughly three turns, if my aim is correct. So far there hasn't been any other way to walk.

Ok – so Cubs still seems to be out. In the interest of keeping things moving, I went ahead and played. Hopefully that's ok! :)

Was a pretty boring turn.
Scouts revealed some more terrain, Ur grew and works a 1fpt/2spt/1cpt tile till I can finish mining the grassland plains.

Wheel in 7 turns.

Hopefully I'm close to a real narrow point like Niklas found in the north, and I can bottle it up with my two EkWarriors before Whomp can get there.


http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/27-Empire.jpg

Man there are lot of BG on this map !!!

I sent the turn to Beorn. But thanks for playing it. What turn was it General W.

Aha!

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7691/028romeborderjs8.png

No extended borders, so it's obviously his second town. Here's our overlay (getting a bit cluttered) to pinpoint his location:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8181/028overlayrm5.png

In other news, Beorn has IW now, I can no longer offer it to him. It's likely I will face a spear on an iron tile somewhere, but hopefully I can still cut off the roads to it.

Go get 'em Niklas! :ar15:

@Cubsfan - er... ok? So, you're going to play this turn - correct?

It would be nice to know where the river flows.
Maybe an attack on the second step is in order - if a warrior is all in there.

How about an early Jag army? :drool: :lol:

I would suggest healing up that Jag before attacking, it would be a shame to lose the attack on the final defender by a single HP.

Cubs has asked me to keep playing for a bit here.

Another pretty boring turn.
Workers keep mining, Cities keep building, Scouts keep scouting.

I know I'm not being 100% efficient with the movement of my middle scout, but given his location, I think following the coast to the chokepoint is my best move.
Other opinions out there?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/28-Empire.jpg

It would appear I’ve discovered the expected Southern Landbridge. So far, it looks wider than the one up north :sad: - hopefully it will narrow down enough for me to effectively block it with the units I’ve got.

Both of my mines finished this turn.
Having UR work the now mined grassland boosted my food, but not my shields – so I went ahead and switched back to working the silk tile also. This lowered my spt by 1, but boosted my fpt and cpt. As it was, I was set to finish the granary and grow on the same turn – and iirc, that means I wouldn’t have gotten the granary bonus anyway – so it’s better to sock the food away now and grow quickly. I went from 5 turns to growth down to 3 turns to growth with this mming. (I also shaved 1 turn off my time to The Wheel) Please let me know if you think this was a mistake, and why :)

Here’s the big picture:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/29-Empire.jpg

You are right that building the granary the same turn you grow won't give you a full bin. So it's usually better to either delay growth by a turn, or if you have the option (i.e. a lot of available fpt) to grow faster. If the issue in your case was between growth and Granary both in 5 turns, or the current growth in 3 and Granary in 6 then it's definitely better to grow faster. It's possible you will still finish the Granary in 5 turns, because of the extra shields you will making for being one size larger on the last three turns (yes three, it includes the turn you grow). So yes, you definitely made the right choice. :)

Are you guys checking f11? I'm curious to know how the other team compares.

Yes, I check it regularly. I'll throw up a screen shot next turn. I'm ahead in most categories though, not surprising since I'm in my GA. ;)

Btw, I just realized that Beorn's worker won't be able to escape into town, since in multiplayer it will have performed its move before he gets control. :D

EDIT: Doh, I just realized that I hadn't put up my shot of Beorn's worker, so the above comment must have been a bit cryptic to you. Here it is:

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1374/029sasquatchqi9.png

@Niklas - Whew! I'm glad I was right about the granary build on growth thing. I didn't have any options to reduce fpt, so yeah - this was my only good option if the game wasn't going to give me the granary benefit before calculating the growth.

you found a worker of Beorn's out in the open? Awesome!
I'm planning on sending my Northern EkWarrior over towards Beorn to sit on his closest Iron Hill tile - hopefully delaying his access to Legions a bit longer. Unless you think it'd be more valuable for me to keep scouting down south to make sure there's no middle passageway?

Are you going to keep him or just kill him? It's a shame to waste a slave but how would you get him back in time to do anything, enless he builds a road over the landbridge, but then the romans might rescue him.

Well, I'm counting on him to move in the warrior to cover. Haven't decided yet if I will attack or not, I want to find his iron, and equally important I want to find Whomp and his horses. If I attack and win, I will definitely disband him, he won't be useful enough and as you say the Romans might recapture him.

General_W, I don't think using the Enkidus for scouting is to make the best use of their potential. If you could get that Enkidu over to sit on his iron, that would be awesome. It's a bit of a hike though, may be something like 20 turns to his iron, but I definitely think it's worth it.

Btw, having played a few HoF games as the Iroquois, I'm starting to fear their potential. Hmm, I wonder if he went for a Republic slingshot, that would be a very clever and bold move. And it makes it even more important that I find him fast.

The choice was made for me, since Beorn covered not with one but with two warriors. No point in attacking when I can't get at his worker anyway, better use my mobility to find his iron. I was leaning towards that option anyway. And I have more Jags coming up right behind... :evil:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2523/030foiledmp6.png

My turn 30 update…

Workers both start to road the tiles where they laid down their mines. EkWarriors all head west. The Wheel in 3 turns.

The Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/30-Empire.jpg


The F-11 Screen for the interested…
I'm not doing very well, but I hope that's because I'm gearing up for a Settler Factory and Military Factory that the others have neglected in favor of shorter-term gains.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/30-F11.jpg

Seems I have feared Beorn needlessly. I may not be able to kill him fast, but it seems I'll be able to cripple him pretty easily:

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/2456/031rometh1.png

I thought about attacking Grizzly on my second move, my trigger-finger was itching. But over the river the odds would be against me, I don't believe for a second that there's only one warrior there, and I wanted to find that iron. There's still a chance that there could be iron W-NW of Grizzly, but it would take a long time for him to connect it. I really think I can block all chances of him getting legions in this game. :D

I have 4 jags in the near area that can go on a pillaging spree over the next few turns. Wee! :evil:

I promised some demographics as well. I've tested two different, one where I let Continuation work a BG (2f 2s 2c) and one where I let it work the newly irrigated FP (3f 2c). In the outgoing save I'm using the latter, for growth in two turns.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6544/031demographicsrs4.png

Some things to note:
Population - I'm second and we know that Beorn is first. Sumeria is 3rd, meaning Whomp is last. His top town is at size 3, a good guess is that he has three towns by now.
MFG: Not very much difference between my 12 in the top and Sumeria's 8 in 4th. Beorn is probably at 9, checking the tiles he has.
Land Area: Again an indication that Whomp has three towns, since Beorn is below Sumeria's 28.
Family size: At 1 children, I'm (tied) 2nd. That means only Sumeria is making more fpt than I am, relative to population. I'm not sure how this computation is done, but at 6 fpt/5 citizens I'm at 1 children and 7 fpt/5 citizens I'm at 2. If Whomp has 3 towns with 3+1+1, he can't make more than 6 fpt. (There is of course a chance that he has done something this turn that changes things)
Military service: :D
Productivity: In my GA I'm at 34, Sumeria is at 29, so you are not very far behind, if at all.


Another interesting development is this:

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/5/031contactvf9.png

I haven't seen him anywhere, one possibility is that his starting scout saw me and then moved away before I could see him. Can't trade contacts until PP (or?), so we must have met somehow. We are at war at any rate, I don't know how that happened, I have no more WH than before.

didn't you start the game at war with them and knowing cub/general w?

No. I knew Sumeria from the start (though we didn't find out until later), but I didn't know the BABEs. I knew Rome from the moment I met his warrior, and we were not at war then. He gave me WH by attacking (and killing) my first scouting Jag. I didn't know Whomp last turn (at least I think so, maybe I should check again), and now I know him and are at war with him.

Nice analysis Niklas! :thumbsup:
Very exciting developments with Beorn. This game is about to get really interesting.

My turn was boring again.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/31-Empire.jpg
Since my southern passage is so wide, I'm kinda tossing around the idea of leaving one of my EkWarriors on that hill to act as an early warning sentry net.

I'm planning on pressing on to Horse Back Riding next – give me access to some quick attackers. Any other/better ideas on what to do next?

I went back to check, and I actually knew Whomp last turn as well, but not the turn before that. We were at war when I got the last save, so he must have declared right away. I got no WH from it though, which got me thinking. We have some sort of locked alliance going, right? So maybe being at war with Beorn automatically puts me at war with Whomp as well.

No big deal though.

@G_W: I think HBR sounds like a good idea. I would press on with both Enkidus, if you can find Whomp and plant one on his horses that would be great. They should still be able to provide early warning.

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2998/032rampagewl9.png

That's one tile pillaged, the irrigated FP, and one more blocked. He managed to get himself a spear in Grizzly now, a pity. I could attack Sasquatch with three Jags next turn, but I won't, he will have more than a spear there and I'm happy to just cripple him for now. :D

Here's the F11 screen for this turn:

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7901/032demographicsbf7.png

Whomp's second town has grown to size 2. Since I'm now equal with Beorn in size, and still in 2nd place, Whomp must be ahead (3+2+2?). I'm not completely sure how population is calculated though, does food in the bin count? I should go check...

Way to go Niklas! Get him! :ar15:


Both my roads finished – The Wheel is due next turn, HBR is up next. I forgot to see if I could adjust my science rate down :blush: I'm getting too accustomed to Civ4 and the beaker carryover.
Both my cities grew.

I plan to use both workers to mine (then road) another BG for each city, then it’s on to hook up that Iron. Unless anyone thinks I should prioritize the Iron over the second round of BGs?

I’d be happy to have any input here.

The Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/32-Empire.jpg

Going to play the save here soon.
Does this quiet mean that everyone agrees with my plan to prioritize the mining the BGs over the Iron?
Or that everyone ignores my upupdates now? :lol:

For me it means I agree. :)

I forgot to upload this before, iron as I thought, but with a guardian:

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5972/033iroironxu9.png

The good thing is, Whomp moves after Beorn, and I move after Whomp. So Beorn can't put a worker on that tile until Whomp has moved, and then I will get a chance first to block that tile.

Learned the Wheel - forgot to pass it to Niklas :blush: playing too fast as my wife and I are running out the door for dinner with her parents.
Next turn Niklas, I promise.

No other big news.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/33-Empire.jpg

Yikes! According to Beorn's battle log, they have mounted warriors already... and we're in big trouble. :scared:

Er... make that, Cubsfan and Niklas are in big trouble! ;) :mischief:

Not at all surprising, after all we're not very far from HBR either and we detoured via IW (and a bunch of lost turns). I'm not too worried - yet. What's more scary is that he is now in a GA and will likely produce at least one MW per three turns. The upside is, I'm two turns away from 1-turn Jags, and 3 Jags beat 1 MW easily. Hopefully I can sneak a Jag further in to find his core, that's really the pressing issue now.

In the long run, what worries me is not the MWs but the fact that it will be harder now to keep Beorn from Legions. But nevertheless, he will have a swarm of Jags to pass through. :D

The Wheel – sent to Niklas! :)

Lower worker starts mining. Top Worker moves into position to start work next turn.
Scouts still scouting.

I MMed Ur to grow and build a settler on the same turn. It’s my understanding that Ur will grow to size 5, then build the settler shrinking to size 3. I hope that’s right. It costs me some commerce and puts HBR further away – but I think it’s more important for me to get the 3rd city out sooner.
PLEASE post if you disagree, or if I’m mming this badly. I consider myself a good player – but I’ve never been much of an MMer (which keeps me from being anything close to a great player) – and I’ve played way more Civ4 than Civ3 lately.

Here’s Ur:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/34-Ur.jpg



And the Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/34-Empire.jpg

More food now -> more shields later.

Suppose you work the silks instead of the iron hill. The game will say growth in 3, and settler due in 5 at 7 spt. However, when you grow to size 5 in 3 turns, then you will get the shields provided by the extra citizen on that turn, and you can place him somewhere you choose the next.

By doing that you get 7 shields this turn and next turn, then 9 shields on the turn you grow to size 5, then you have 5 citizens and can easily get 7 shields on your 4th turn. The result is that your settler still completes in 4 turns, but you have more food in the bin, and you will get extra income over the next 4 turns :).

Thanks Chamnix :) - I would have to use the lux slider if I did it your way, but there's no real harm in that, I suppose.
The learning continues!
(I get one turn of grace in PBEM, right? ie, the town won't riot immediatly when it grows to size 5 and gets that 3rd unhappy face)

Sadly, I think it's too late to adjust strategy now...

My apologies to team-mate Niklas for my learning on the job, so to speak. :D

Yes you have the grace turn. And no need to apologize, learning is what life's about. :)

Nothing much happening for me. One of my surviving Jags is licking his wounds west of Grizzly, the other is trying to sneak past to scout as much as possible before he inevitably succumbs.

Here's an overlay combining our two viewports:

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5129/035overlaybu3.png
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/8223/035minimapxu7.png

Note that Beorn is actually south of the "equator", so chances are we'll find Whomp north of him. That's where I'm scouting now at any rate.

I would have to use the lux slider if I did it your way, but there's no real harm in that, I suppose.

Actually it looks like your Enkidu in Sumer is not necessary for happiness right now - he could move to Ur for the 1 turn that Ur is size 5, then be back in Sumer as it grows to size 4 :).


Sadly, I think it's too late to adjust strategy now...

It's not too late if you want to change. Next turn when you get the save, you should have 12 food in the bin, so you can still switch from iron hill to silks and get growth 1 turn faster without delaying the settler.

Thanks Chamnix – I actually played before I found your note, but happily, I figured out that I could MM back to the silk and still be ok :)

Moving the EkWarrior from Summer to Ur is a brilliant Idea! I’ll totally do that. Thanks.

I also had a major surplus of shields finishing the Barracks in Summer, so I MMed it to pick up an extra commerce.

All-in-all, brought my time to finish HBR down to just 4 turns [party] – but that’ll change as my maintenance costs go up here again.

Here’s the Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/35-Empire.jpg

Hopefully I’m getting close to Whomp, so I can relieve a little pressure off Niklas in the North.

Plan is to pump out another EkWarrior in Summer to guard my next settler – then I’m kinda thinking about doing another worker (since I’m in such good shape defensively, with Whomp and Beorn busy in the West) – and then building some horses before I start on a stack of swords.
Thoughts on that?

All-in-all, brought my time to finish HBR down to just 4 turns [party] – but that’ll change as my maintenance costs go up here again.
Maybe Niklas has some excess money? 5g will do the job, after HBR you are done with science...

But maybe it won't be necessary, you won't need HBR too soon. Maybe even delay it to build some chariots to upgrade? :hmm:

Switched workers around at Summer - growth now in 3 along with completing my next EkWarrior. This adds a turn to HBR, but oh-well.

Plan to turn my Middle scout North to climb the recently erupted Volcano, so I get a little less overlap with my southern most scout.

@ Niklas – any advice on how you want me to approach Beorn? Stick to the North, then drop down? Or follow your Jag straight in for maximum disruption?

@Paul – that’s an interesting idea. I guess we hadn’t fully decided if I was going to shut off research after HBR or not. If I’m going to, it probably makes sense to stall it at 1 turn left, pile up some cash while I build Chariots, and then do a mass upgrade. OTOH, Niklas and I have an opportunity to get a more long-term advantage if we can keep Beorn and Whomp 100% focused on Military while I expand and advance in Tech.
But it’s probably too early to be thinking about that – in the near term I guess I should probably focus on just units and settlers… meaning no more tech for a while after HBR.

So, a chariot is 20 shields, and costs 20gold to upgrade to a 30 shield horseman. Anyone have some thoughts on how long should I stall on HBR to pile up gold for Chariot upgrades?

EDIT: that will also mean prioritizing getting the Horse hooked up over getting the Iron. Happily, it’s very close at hand.


Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/36-Empire.jpg

Behold the power that is Abstraction!

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3911/037abstractionbv4.png

The 16 will drop to 14 when my GA runs out, but I still have (exactly) enough time to mine one more BG. The next step of the plan will be to have workers start roading towards the front. :D

Some more exploration of the west shows no immediate path northwards, so it seems Whomp will be to the south after all. I might just stop and "rest" some.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3194/037explorefl0.png

The healed Jag is outrunning an archer-spear pair. I just love it how he diverts that kind of resources to hunt down a single Jag, whom he won't get close to anyway. He might herd me towards a mountie somewhere, but it will still have cost him.

Well – the tension mounts on the Western exploration front… I must be getting close!

I MM my towns and manage to pick up some extra food and commerce – Settler due next turn from Ur.
Where should I settle? Here are my ideas:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/37-Settlement.jpg
Red = A BG, a couple river tiles, and a bonus Sugar tile.
Blue = Grassland and 1 BG – but it’s on the coast, and would allow me to open up trading with further flung cities (like a Southern Passage city between Whomp and I?).
Green = Lots of forests to chop, shares a BG with Ur, lots of river tiles.

EDIT: Actually – as I look at this, I also had the idea to build a city on that hill directly south of my Red Circle (thanks to Civ4, temporarily forgot I could build just 1 tile away in Civ3!) – this location would give me immediate access to that mined BG tile when Ur isn’t using it, and would save me from having to road a hill to connect the city. It would also give me costal access… hmm – I kinda like that! Thoughts?

Of course, I could also take a flyer, and try to throw a city out in the Southern Passage right away, or one up by the Floodplains – my defensive situation seems pretty good at the moment, so maybe that’d be ok? In general, it seems like I should probably stick with building closer to home.

I plan to drop research down to 0% next turn and stockpile gold for upgrading horses.

The Empire:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/37-Empire.jpg

I also like 1 W of green, on a river (3fpt in ctr) and wheat in starting radius (that's like a BG).

That’s good DenyD – I like that :) – that would also allow me to wedge another city in there 2 tiles North-West of Ur. If I’m going to ICS, might as well do it in style! :D

I think I’m going to settle that hill first. It’s closer and can get up and running faster, thanks to the occasional use of a BG from Ur. (once I finish that southern BG, anyway.)

Sadly, the second mined BG I need to run a full time settler factory out of UR won’t be ready in time for this round – but next time it will be!

Science turned down to 0% - time to rack up some gold!

Turn 38
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/38-Empire.jpg

Some pics from my turn, didn't have time to upload an hour ago:

The Archer-Spear pair has disappeared from view, they must be in the marked area:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/562/038archerpairxi6.png

Some bad luck with my explorers (or good strategy from Beorn) means I'll most likely lose both my Jags next turn:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/7470/038encounter1mo9.png
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/2627/038encounter2fm5.png

Regarding your settler strategy, I think your reasoning is sound, with one exception. It's very unlikely that we will ever get to Map Making in this game, let alone build any harbors, so coastal locations will only mean less good workable tiles for you.

I like denyd's suggested site, rule #1 should be to settle on the river whenever possible, unless there are good reasons not to. Settling the hills will be good since you can share the tiles with the capitol, but it will take you longer to grow. I think that's fine though, and it will allow you to settle a town on the river 3 N of the capitol to get the BG there, maybe even 4 N.

I'll most likely lose both my Jags next turn
Sometimes I hate being right. :gripe:

For this turn I'm trying to be a bit clever:

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5470/039evasionio2.png

The red lines mark where I think his archer-spear pair has gone to. So instead of taking the extra step, I've stopped at the position in the picture, hoping they will take another step forward so I can sprint past. It may be a bit worse for the Enkidu though, he won't do well against a vArcher. Not sure what we should do with him. :hmm:

My other Jag will try to hunt down a mountie. I'll try to move one more turn towards the NW, then I'll employ a stalker tactics.

The EW should move 1 E to force the any attacks to be across the river (+10%) if he's fortified that would make his defense 3.2 to the archer 2 attack. With that a Reg EW is 58% chance to win. Use the JW to draw him into that trap, then send the JW along the shoreline. When he makes it to the mountains, he'll be to beat against anything except MW.

Turn 40

Well – it probably going to be an ugly turn for me :sad: - hopefully I’ll help to take a little pressure off Niklas at least.

@Denyd – good idea, but you posted about 10 minutes after I’d already played the save :wallbash:

I made a break for the East with my top EkWarrior – and wound up right next to that Archer Niklas warned me about. Now I just have to pray for a lucky RNG. More likely, I’ll just be drawing the archer away from Niklas – so hopefully I give his Jags the break they need!

In the South, I spied a Mounted Warrior on a Mountain, so I moved onto the hill, rather than retreat. I know it’s not great odds, but if he wants to attack me, he’ll have to come across a river and onto the hill. Still, since he has two units that can reach me, I’m probably a dead man. Again, the best I can really hope for is that I draw the Mounted Warrior away from my southernmost scout, allowing him to penetrate deeper into Whomp Land.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/40-Trouble.jpg


Back on the homefront, I built my 3rd city, and started on a regular EkWarrior to perform MP duty. Then I think I’ll build a worker, as I desperately need those. Both mines are now finished, so I’ll road those tiles – then it’s off to hook up the horse, and then the Iron.

Summer will build 1 more EkWarrior after this one, then a worker, then I should be ready to go on Chariots – so I’ll start pumping those out for eventual upgrade to Horsemen.

I’ve also mapped out my next 3 cities
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/40-Homefront.jpg



Please comment on any part of these plans! I need all the help I can get, lol.

Sigh, this isn't going too well. He's put up a complete block of the northern path now:

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/7749/041blockzk7.png

I only have one Jag past that line now, on a mountain but within range of a MW, so likely he won't last long regardless. I guess it's time to hit plan B... or rather, devise a plan B. :undecide:

It looks like there's a path to the south (where the EW are). Leave a couple of JW to harass the spearmen and send any new JW that direction.

Turn 41

Well, it was a blood-bath, as expected. Happily, two good things came out of it. First – I managed to kill at least one unit! Whomp’s warrior.
Second, it looks like I got a nice burst of War Happiness :D
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/41-Ur_warhappy.jpg


I’m up to first place in land area and second in population – so even though our war isn’t going so well, at least it looks like I’m pulling ahead in # of cities. I have another settler set to finish next turn.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/41-F11.jpg


I finally found Whomp’s borders!
I plan to move NW to the hill, then West to the Mountain to spy out his land. Hopefully I won’t be intercepted by a MW before I can at least get a peek.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/41-FoundWhomp.jpg

The blockade continues:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1985/042blockadejl2.png

His archer moved SE to threaten the Jag I had fortified there. I really don't want his blockade to reach the river in full, so I intend to make a "last stand". I've gathered three Jags on the tile N of the moving one in the picture, and one more on the plains as seen. Together they have 74.2% chance to kill off a spear, and on average one should retreat. I'd be trading 45 shields for 20 of his, but better that than the alternative.

Turn 42
.. and yet, I still strangely feel like I’m missing some part of the answer to the big questions. :)

Whomp pursued me with his MW, but thanks to the rugged terrain, I’m going to be able to elude him for now.

In happy news (and we’re in sore need of some) – it looks like I’m going to put at least a small crimp in Whomp’s expansion plans. I’ve happened across a settler of his with only a warrior for protection. That’s relatively safe for Whomp – but he also knows what I know… that my Ekindu’s days are numbered anyway, and I might be crazy enough to gamble on a 20% shot of killing a settler… so hopefully I can delay him into a game of cat-and-mouse at least.
In any case, it looks like I’m going to be able to get a mountain vista view of Whompland, unless he’s got more MWs lurking to take up position on those mountains.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/42-EnemyTerritory.jpg


In other news, I finished another settler, and it’s headed for location #1 – two tiles NW of my capital.
My lower worker is done with his road, and will now head for my horse to hook it up.

Turn 43

Well – despite disaster in the North, :sad: I’m continuing to give Whomp a merry chase in the South. I’m slipping past his MW again, and finally was able to catch my first glimpse of Whomp’s capital. It’s undefended! Oh, I can dream, can’t I? ;)

Maybe I’ll just fortify on that Gem Mountain, if it stays open, and keep an eye on Whomp till he digs me out? We’ll have to see what he does on his turn. No sign of the Settler.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/43-EnemyTerritory.jpg

My guess iS whomp set a trap. That the're is actually a mounted warior watihing to pounce once you move into the bg. I suggest you go onto the mountain. Also you guys can't win that quick war that you were hoping to win. I think you must now prepare for a long drawn out war.

I agree with Cubs Fan, that you will not win this quickly. Probably keep sending JW to harass the Bear Bunch while building swords and adding cities.

The problem is that the Jags won't harass anyone if they can't get past that spear block.

I'm worried. The problem at this point is that the Bears will pull ahead in tech, they will be able to get out of despotism and will generally outpace us, or me at least. If they can get to maces, pikes and knights, we're deader than dead.

It seems to me as if I may have to switch strategy completely, ditch my 1-turn Jags in favor of expansion. I can get a granary in 4 turns, and build 4-turn settlers. We may also need to get cracking on research, we can't afford to give the Bears even more head start than they already have.

I have the save now, but I haven't started playing yet, I'll wait for some input first.

yeah - I think it may be time for expansion mode.
I'd send whatever Jags you have left down around the South - see if we can keep the Bears believing that we're still going after them full force - so they'll keep building military for a while.... still no matter what, we'll eventually just have to face armies of MW and Legions on our home terf. :sad:

Perhaps if we focus our expansion on bottling up those passages, we can hold the line against them? (till they build boats?)

If research is the path of choice, consider that you've got one SCI tribe, so maybe heading for literature (Great Librady gambit anyone?) might be an idea.

Isn't there a southern path that you could take to harass them?

Turn 43

Late-in-coming update.
Whomp’s capitol was still undefended, but I agree with Cubsfan, it’s got to be a trick. So I struck north onto the gold Mountain. And spotted his settler! Obviously, I’ll never catch him, but it should throw off his planned settlement :D
So basically, it’s “operation: pain-in-the-neck” till Whomp manages to kill me.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/43-Whompland.jpg



Founded my 4th city. Started roading my horse tile. I’ll pump out a few chariots, then finish HBR & do a mass upgrade – and by then hopefully Niklas and I will have a tech plan. Going for the Great Library is an interesting idea… I could probably devote a city to a prebuild on that, it seems really unlikely I’d have any competition on building it, so it wouldn't have to be a great high spt city even.

I'm betting that settler is heading 1 NE. That would be on a river with a wheat next door. If you move E to the mountains you'd be able to force he somewhere else. He could also be heading for the iron, but where you're at makes that a no-no at the moment. Staying on the mountains make you 35% chance to win against a MW (he withdraws 33%). (if you promote that would move you to 37% with a 42% withdraw). On a hill you're less than 20% to survive.

Well, after losing a wildly ridiculous battle with Whomp’s regular warrior – I can now see that Whomp settled that town in peace :mad:
Oh well – this game is going badly for the Bear alliance anyway :lol:
When you add up the rich starting locations, the distance between our capitals, and the easy choke points… there’s a lot here to favor the Roman/Iroquois civs over Sumeranis/Aztec.

If Niklas and Cubsfan can pull this one off, it’ll be amazing ;)

I hooked up my horse, and started 2 chariot builds. At 20 gold a pop, I’ve already got enough gold for 8 upgrades and am acquiring more than enough gold for additional ones. That’ll trim back after my golden age ends – of course – but I’m still going to have plenty of gold… I’m just lacking chariots!
I’m thinking maybe I’ll try to build 10 chariots before I turn research back on? Opinions on that?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/45-Empire.jpg

The upgrades are 30 gold each in C3C. Hmm, 10 horses joined by a bunch of my Jags scouting ahead could probably make a nice dent into Whomp. What do you think of the ETA for such a force?

When you add up the rich starting locations, the distance between our capitals, and the easy choke points… there’s a lot here to favor the Roman/Iroquois civs over Sumeranis/Aztec.
Uh uh. Defeatist talk is not allowed. You CAN win. It will be more difficult than you imagined however. The distance between the capitals is somewhat of a mixed bag... it cant be too close or too far or it will favor one side or the other. Looks to me like you thought it was close enough to rush! Easy choke points favors you more than Iro/Rome. You can build 3! EWs for every MW and jags are 50/50 to kill said MW. Legions are tough, but dont let em get on the mountains and clean em up with horses and swords.

Sorry KillerCane – I wasn't attempting to smear your map – it's great :D

I'm just in a foul mood after losing a battle I had better than 95% chance to win. You are, of course, correct. This game is still far from over.

EDIT:
@Niklas – I'm not sure how long. Depends on how many SPT I can get out of Summer, now that it's corruption is higher than originally planned, thanks to my ICSing. Off the top of my head, I'd say 20 turns till the mass upgrade. Maybe 25.

I'm also thinking about sending my next settler down to the Choke point to settle on that hill, and use my 2 Veteran Ekindus to protect it. It won't be very productive, and Whomp will easily by-pass it if he wants too… but I think it's more likely he'll try to take it out first if he comes for me… and It'll be a good opportunity to bleed him with EkWarriors on a hill behind city walls. Unless he brings more of those uber-warriors of doom with him. :rolleyes:

Or do people think it'd be better to stick with slamming cities down close to home for now, and just use the EkWarriros to watch the passage without the protection of a city?

I don't think such a city would be very good, it would likely cost you more resources than it would drain from him. Better to settle a town in the hills where the land bridge reaches the mainland, close enough to home to be easily reinforced, but also a nice staging/defense point. Though I would settle all the productive towns first.

@Niklas – here's the spot I was thinking of – the red circle:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/45-GapCity.jpg
(from an old screenshot – it was all I had access to at work)

It wouldn't be TOO far to road, but the corruption would be bad, and it would delay getting a much better city up and running.
With my settler factory doing 4 turn settlers, it's only a delay of 4 turns though – so I'm still thinking it might be worth it. Depends on if we really want to go after that stack of Horseman for a desperate last-charge of the light brigade (Horseman and Jags) – if that's going to be our short-term strategy, then it'd probably be best to settle close to home and build a chariot.

If the strategy is going to be hold the line, research, and build the Great Library – then it's probably a better idea to try to start bottling up that passage way now, before it's too late.

I don't know… I'm still torn.
Thoughts?

Since you haven't seen any Legions yet, it'll probably be awhile before they come after you. MW are quite vunerable on defense, so they'll probably wait until they can get a lot of them. There's also a good chance that the Iroquois player will go for SoZ. AC & MW are a deadly combination until pikes are on the board.

Both very good points (as always) Denyd.

Given that I likely have some time- should that make me more or less likely to go for the early choke-point city??
On the one hand, it means I have less of a rush to get a big army for defense, and I can get more time to build it up a bit.
On the other hand - sticking close to home lets me build up a big army quickly, and maybe hit them before they can hit back.
... course, that was our theory originally, and it hasn't worked out so well :sad:

Also - I'm thinking we should probably seriously consider a SoZ build - just from a denial standpoint, if nothing else. What do you think Niklas, want to head for Math?

Both very good points (as always) Denyd.

Given that I likely have some time- should that make me more or less likely to go for the early choke-point city??
On the one hand, it means I have less of a rush to get a big army for defense, and I can get more time to build it up a bit.
On the other hand - sticking close to home lets me build up a big army quickly, and maybe hit them before they can hit back.
... course, that was our theory originally, and it hasn't worked out so well :sad:

Also - I'm thinking we should probably seriously consider a SoZ build - just from a denial standpoint, if nothing else. What do you think Niklas, want to head for Math?
Dont you need IVORY for SoZ? Now where the heck could ivory be?

Sorry KillerCane – I wasn't attempting to smear your map – it's great :D

I'm just in a foul mood after losing a battle I had better than 95% chance to win. You are, of course, correct. This game is still far from over.

EDIT:
@Niklas – I'm not sure how long. Depends on how many SPT I can get out of Summer, now that it's corruption is higher than originally planned, thanks to my ICSing. Off the top of my head, I'd say 20 turns till the mass upgrade. Maybe 25.

I'm also thinking about sending my next settler down to the Choke point to settle on that hill, and use my 2 Veteran Ekindus to protect it. It won't be very productive, and Whomp will easily by-pass it if he wants too… but I think it's more likely he'll try to take it out first if he comes for me… and It'll be a good opportunity to bleed him with EkWarriors on a hill behind city walls. Unless he brings more of those uber-warriors of doom with him. :rolleyes:

Or do people think it'd be better to stick with slamming cities down close to home for now, and just use the EkWarriros to watch the passage without the protection of a city?
Well the map isnt great, there are some mistakes I have noticed (that dont necessarily favor the other team mind you!). But I can see where you were headed in your thinking and wanted to head that off before it started.

You have some really nice options still available, and exploiting those will win you the game.

Dont you need IVORY for SoZ? Now where the heck could ivory be?

If they agreed on the MTDGII ruleset, SoZ is not bound to Ivory.
However they still need to know maths... :mischief:

If they agreed on the MTDGII ruleset, SoZ is not bound to Ivory.
However they still need to know maths... :mischief:
I dont think ruleset was mentioned.

I thought that was a good hill to settle a while back. But I wouldn't sacrifice a close city to do it, when you get your forbbiden palace message and have the core established, then get it.

Go, go, G_W and Niklas!

Ivory might be on that island in the middle... if that's an island...

Math would be useful anyway, for catapults. The best counter to legions, I think.

I would settle close towns first. Some sort of block to prevent those MW's from running around your side of the board will be highly useful, however this block could be made of units. And jags vs MW's is pretty nice on the attack. Enkidu's vs anything is nice on defense (normally speaking, warrior-heroes excluded).

Hmm – that's a good idea about the center island zyxy – it does seem likely there's at least SOMETHING nice hidden there. Ivory is a good guess.
Problem is that to get there, we'd need Alphabet, Writing, and Map Making. Then 2 harbors just to get the Ivory back.

Sadly, our other option (to race for Catapults) requires a totally different tech plan… Masonry, then Alphabet, then Math.
This plan seems like a pretty good idea to me, since (as you note) Catapults are wonderful to have against Legions.

I suppose we could have Niklas start on Alphabet right away, then work on Masonry followed by Math. That leaves me free to finish Horseback Riding (1 turn left) as soon as I have enough chariots – then I can beeline Writing and Map Making. With Niklas doing Literature after he finishes Math to setup our Great Library contingency plan to catchup to the Middle Ages when the Bears likely pull ahead.

How's that for a plan?
What do you think Niklas?


Niklas = Alphabet, Masonry, Mathematics, Literature
General_W/Cubsfan = Horseback Riding, Writing, Map Making


Enkidu's vs anything is nice on defense (normally speaking, warrior-heroes excluded). :gripe:

Looks good to me. I'll get cracking on Alphabet right away then, I have a nice stash of gold saved for this. I'll probably play the turn in an hour or so.

Sounds good Niklas :thumbsup: I won't be able to play the save for another 3-4 hours at least anyway. So no huge hurry.

If all this goes according to plan (hah!) As our next technology steps, we could consider a plan where one of us piles up gold while the other researches to Monarchy. It'd be an ideal government for us, especially if we just managed to stockpile a bunch of gold.

You only need Alpha to build a scouting curragh. That might be enough to explore if the island is small or narrow.

Of course you can transfer gold from the nonresearching team to the researching one. In fact, you probably want to let General_W do most of the researching (once he finishes HBR), especially the cheaper techs, because of the higher chance of SGL's.

Good point on the SGL's zyxy... that'd only be fair with how horrible the RNG has been to us!

Still, no reason to hold off on Alphabet, as the Iroquois started with that. And I'm a ways away from re-starting research yet.

Aye, we're some ways behind the Bears in research so we're not likely to get any SGLs for any of the cheaper techs. And it wouldn't surprise me if they have gone for Monarchy as well. Literature is one tech where we might get an SGL though, and possibly Masonry and Maths, so maybe you should do those. I can go Alphabet and Writing.

Off to play now.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/170/046scoutsbv4.png
Beorn is advancing. I hope he continues on, I will gather up all my boys and meet him. I have 6 vJags now, the odds to take out both units is >75%, and even if I leave one of them wounded then I will get another shot with any unit that's relatively unharmed thanks to my better speed. Mean surviving units is ~4.4, so I will have to hope I only lose one.

Started Alphabet, ETA 7 turns. Granary ETA is 2 turns, after that I'll spam out some settlers.

As much as the builder in me hates to admit it, this game is indeed more of a nailbiter than the main one :lol:

I only wish I had the good fortune to be able to read both spoilers!

Well – I somehow butchered getting my screenshot this turn. Nothing really exciting happened anyway.

However – I do have an even better picture for you.

This is a true story – I swear.

I was giving my daughter a bath tonight, and she’s got the little letter & number things that stick to the side of the tub when they get wet. – she likes to have something to look at on the walls of the tub – so they’re a real hit.
Anyway – tonight, I reached in and pulled a handful of letters out, and then stuck them to the wall… and here’s what I saw…
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/RNG.jpg


Ok, ok, so actually it came out as GRN.
But with only a tiny re-arrange, I got RNG.
I think this is a sign from the RNG gods that Niklas and my luck is about to change!
[party] ;)


Or as my wife says, it’s a sign that I think about my MTDG games too much :lol:


P.S. Those other letters you see in the tub were put in the water by my wife while I ran for the camera. the RNG letters were literally the only ones in the tub when this sign from heaven was bestowed upon me.

That's just too precious. :) My daughter is almost 3, it's really something. And if my daughter had letters too, I'd probably be seeing things, too. I have Civbrain too.

Chances of RNG: 1/26*25*24

I was never too comfy with probabilities, but I think that's it, right?

Chances of RNG: 1/26*25*24

I was never too comfy with probabilities, but I think that's it, right?

Depends on the total number of letters, and the number of R's, N's and G's.
By the way, yours is only right if you want the specific combination RNG, not all combinations off 3 with a R, N and G.
Which reminds me, I've got a math test coming up :cry:

The trap is being set:
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/737/047waitinghj4.png

ETAs:
Alphabet - 6 turns
Granary - 1 turn

Nothing real big to report.
Settler is in place to found town #5

Here’s my plan for my next 2 settlers.
I’m thinking, maybe I should do the Red circle first, then the blue circle, as I can get to red faster, thanks to the roads. Thoughts on this?
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/47-Homeland.jpg


Also, since I’m going to be delaying sending a settler to the Southern Pass – I’ve come up with some forward positions for my Veteran Ekindus to watch for Whomp:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/47-Frontier.jpg
Any thoughts on a better locations?

Good locations, but I would consider taking safer routes to reach them. I.e. the lower one moves plains-hills-plains-dyes-plains(NW)-hills-mnt and the upper moves plains-forest-mnt-mnt.

If you can reach the red dot faster then go for it, definitely.

As much as the builder in me hates to admit it, this game is indeed more of a nailbiter than the main one :lol:

I only wish I had the good fortune to be able to read both spoilers!

As you can probably guess from the lack of pages in their spoiler thread, you're not missing much. Lately we've seen a few screenies of your units being butchered by their warrior-heroes, but they haven't been discussing much otherwise.

To Anyone Who Can Read Both Spoiler Threads:
Please take care that you not reveal anything the Babes (and their dirty dirty allies ;)) might find spoilerish. We all know that the above post doesn't come close to the line, but I just want to make sure that anyone less circumspect maintains good judgement :D

Meta-game info can be surprisingly useful :shifty:

Beorn keeps advancing, and much as I suspected he has another spear trailing along. The third one might come just after as well.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4996/048advancevv4.png

I'll set my trap, though the river might complicate things if he has two spears to cover with. Depending on where he moves his archer I'll hit either the coming turn or the one after.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/1245/048trapzy6.png

ETAs:
Alphabet - 4 turns
Granary - complete
Settler - 2 turns

Turn 48

Settle my 5th town.
Produce my first 2 chariots.
I send one chariot over to explore to my North-East a bit, as it will still have plenty of time to get back for upgrading.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/48-Homeland.jpg

I’m going to follow Niklas’ suggested safe paths to my mountain watch points.

Not much else to report… except that Whomp (sorta) offered me peace again by accident! :lol:

To Anyone Who Can Read Both Spoiler Threads:
Please take care that you not reveal anything the Babes (and their dirty dirty allies ;)) might find spoilerish. We all know that the above post doesn't come close to the line, but I just want to make sure that anyone less circumspect maintains good judgement :D

Meta-game info can be surprisingly useful :shifty:

Good point. I was careful to avoid anything spoilerish in my previous post, but there's definitely a slippery slope in posting about the contents of the other spoiler thread for this game. I don't plan on posting anything more on the topic, so hopefully I can avoid the slope :)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8813/049foiledvm7.png

Nope, he didn't walk into the trap. I guess I'll just wait for a while and see what happens.

Turn 49

Finish a settler – heads East.
Finish the road to my iron – mining operations begin.
Still no sign of Whomp in the West.
Chariots scouting around my core, to identify any good settlement spots.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/49-Homeland.jpg

And an F-11 shot:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/49-F11.jpg

I'm not sure I would build any more regular units unless there was imminent danger and no time to produce vets.

I would also be inclined to stop producing settlers for a while and spit out a bunch of workers from Ur, but that might be just me ;).

Taking a break from Settler duty for a few workers sounds like that's probably a really good idea :)

The only reason I'm building regular units, is I'm in a hurry to get a bunch of Chariots for upgrade so I can restart my research. And I'm building a regular Ekindu in Umma because he's just going to be on MP duty, and I don't need to waste a Veteran unit for that.

No change on the Beorn front. I think he might be waiting for backup from a few MWs or something. In any case, I'll be ready when he moves.

First settler complete. ETAs:
Alphabet - 2 turns
Settler - 3 turns
Town#3 - 3 turns

Well – it looks like I’ve run into Whomp’s “return the visiting favor” committee.
I’m just glad my Ekindu made the Mountain!
That way I can take out 1 MW hitpoint instead of just dying to Whomp’s next flawless victory… :gripe:

Anyway – pessimism aside – now I’ve got to decide if I should send my chariots out into the field, or maybe pull them back to Summer, finish HBR, and do my upgrade a bit earlier than planned?

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/50-TroubleBrewing.jpg

I guess I’ll have to see if he attacks me, and how much damage I can do. Still, I’m thinking I may need to get HBR and do my upgrade sooner than expected.
Thoughts?
Help!?
:help:

Turn 51

Ok, so Whomp left me alone… what to do?

I use my Westernmost Ekindu to push further into Whompland – hoping to distract him into holding back his forces.
My other Ekindu will never make it to the mountains in time, so I fall back to the hill, where I’ll fortify next turn. From there, I can keep a better eye on the field of battle, and if Whomp tries to bypass me, I can send him toward’s Whomps home to make trouble.

In the meantime, I’m sending 2 chariots to the plains field to try to intercept Whomp if he does try to blow past my EkWarriors.

Thoughts on this strategy?
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/51-Empire.jpg


Back at home, a little MMing brings my next veteran chariot down to just 3 turns. I’ll found another city next turn, and in 2 turns I’ll have another settler before Ur goes on worker duty. The city of Kish really doesn’t have much to do – so it starts a granary. I’m not sure if I want to let the finish, or use the shields for another regular chariot once I get a road hooked up to supply horses (will build that road, as soon as the workers are done connecting Iron). I guess it depends on what Whomp does with those Veteran MW’s (one marked that I could see till I moved) – if I’m in trouble, I’ll go for the chariot. If not – Kish would probably be a good spot for a granary… or a barracks as another military town? :hmm:

Help is always appreciated!

I'm wondering if your two chariots would do better staioned on the Mountains - they can see just as far, and can swoop down at a moment's notice.

On the plains, they are vulnerable to attack by MW that you can't see in the fog.

I'm pretty sure Chariots can't go into Mountains.
Hence the reason I'm taking the long way to the plains with my second chariot.

I think you chose the right strategy with your Enkidus. As for the Chariots, I would continue as planned with the southern one, but the northern one will be one turn too late. Depending on how Whomp moves, the southern may be too late as well, but we can hope he presses on in a straight line. I would in any case keep the northern one on the eastern side of the mountains. The southern one will hopefully get a shot at the front MW two turns from now.

I would go for HBR now, or maybe after the chariot in Lagash is complete. You really need it.

If not – Kish would probably be a good spot for a granary… or a barracks as another military town? :hmm:


In this type of game, I would think the majority of your towns should be military towns.

In this type of game, I would think the majority of your towns should be military towns.

Exactly. Deathmatch kind of says it all. You aren't going to win by culture here.

Quite right… I am properly chastised now :) – I'll switch to a barracks build immediately.

Also – good point Niklas – I'll send that Northern Chariot back home for upgrade.
Timing the jump to HorseBack riding will be a little difficult. On my next turn (turn 52), Lagash will be 1 turn away from finishing a chariot, and Sumer will be 2 turns away from finishing a veteran Chariot.
If I wait for both to finish, that means no HBR till turn 55 (restarting research on turn 54) – which means my horsemen won't be ready to move till turn 56.
Whomp could certainly have his lead MW in range of Sumer by turn 55.

I guess how long I wait depends on what his MW does in the next 2 turns. If he comes right for me, I'd better fire up research on turn 53. If he dallies, I think I can wait till turn 54.

Or am I being too greedy here?

You guys might wan't to watch you're back their could be a land bridge behind niklas.

No, I've mapped out all the relevant land there (I think :hmm: ).

Anyway, looking at the map again I realize I have a (regular) Jag standing on the westernmost mountain in the range, just where the plains start. He might be useful against the MW, at the very least he should be able to pick off an injured one.

I think your reasoning is sound. Wait for the next 1 or 2 turns to see what happens with the MWs, then possibly turn on research again.

And so it comes back to us:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2011/052yikesch4.png

I was curious, since I suspected all along that he was waiting for MW backup, so I went ahead and looked. The three stacks are, from right to left: 2 vSpears + 1 vArcher; 3 vMWs; 1 vSpear + 1 vArcher + 1 vWarrior.

The spying Jag that already moved a step to get into the position in the image couldn't escape the wrath of the MWs, and he would do a lot more damage attacking, so... I killed my first MW! :woohoo:

The rest of the units I gathered as shown in this image:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6515/052defensewn3.png

If he advances the MWs at all, I will get to attack them with all I have (well, not the spear) without crossing a river. He could let Beorn's units advance first though, which will force me to take to the hills instead. I'm not worried about most of those units, and if I can kill the MWs I'm almost of a mind to try to run past him and head for his core again. I should be able to get a few 2-turn swords out of my capitol before he gets closer.

Why don't you move you're spear down to the sea so you can see if he advances.

– Turn 52 –

Hooray for our first offensive Kill! [party] – I told you, the sign I got in the bathtub heralded good things to come! ;)

Well – it was a big turn!
I sighted 2 more MW’s headed for me. It looks like Whomp means business, though I’m glad the bulk is headed for Niklas – who is the more skilled player here.

Here’s what I saw, pre move:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/52--PreTrouble.jpg

I don’t have a screenshot of it after I moved, but according to plan, My Westernmost Ekindu headed further West, jumping to another mountain top – from that vantage I didn’t see any more MWs.
My Southern Ekindu fortified on his hill, and my Chariot moved up on the hill by the river. Whomp will still be able to slip past my chariot if he beelines East, as seems likely. I don’t want to expose my chariot to being attacked… so ideally, I won’t even let Whomp see it, so I can spring a trap on him, thanks to my LOS from my Ekindu fortified on the hill.

Back at home – I made a big decision that was maybe some people will think is a mistake – but after thinking about it for a while, I decided it was want I wanted to do. I dumped my Settler build in Ur into a Swordsman. (Called a Zambrano in this game? Am I missing something?) – anyway, at 30 shields, I didn’t lose any more than I was going to on the Settler anyway, I’ve already got more cities than I can defend well if Whomp is going to be sending a steady stream of MWs at me, and I need some time to get my other towns functioning as Military Towns. This swordsman will allow me to deal with Whomp’s first MW at least, until I can get Horsemen.

Here’s what I expect Whomp to do:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/52-AttackPath.jpg

With the Swordsman from Ur, I can wait for Whomp to move into range, then hit him with my Sword. This gives me the extra time I need to build another veteran Chariot out of Sumer (or maybe even more than that, if I manage to intercept Whomp out in the open plains with my chariot?) – I really believe that the more chariots I can build before I have to upgrade, the better, since I’ll save 10shields every time I can produce a chariot.

So, the current plan is wait at LEAST till Summer finishes it’s next chariot before turning research back on. Maybe longer, depending on what happens in the field with Whomp’s other two MWs.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/52-Core.jpg

Thoughts?
Public whipping for my poor strategy?


EDIT: on further examination, my city of Kish should really be building a Barracks, not another Ekindu warrior. I’ll fix that next turn.

No public whipping from me, I think you made the right choice. For the record, my regular Jag is now located here:

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/4263/052southty5.png

If that MW beelines east, I can hit him next turn. Odds will be against me, but just maiming him will do fine in that case. ;)

Ok, just noticed Beorn played without attacking me. I was hoping for that, since it means he didn't block that tile with his stack, waiting for the MWs to advance. It means he will have seen my stack in waiting though, so Whomp might not advance after all.

Too bad he has the tactical advantage, in that Beorn moves before Whomp. That will make it that much harder for me to get a clear shot.

Nope, Whomp didn't advance, so I had to keep falling back:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/5641/053evasionhf0.png

And in the south Whomp foiled our plans by moving E-SE instead of due E, meaning neither of us got a chance to strike him. I've taken to the mountains, but he will still have 3 vs 2.25 on his attack (and more hp). I hope to take a few hp from him though, and you will need something to take care of him back home.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1849/053southyi2.png

I would move the chariot NW-W, assuming there isn't a second MW that can strike at that tile. He won't have visibility to that tile, and you could strike at the next MW that comes along.

On the home front, Alphabet is in (and sent). Started on Writing, I'm sure I won't be first to that anyway, ETA is only 9 turns! I also settled my third town, and have a settler out for the fourth (ETA 3 turns).

- Turn 53 –

Moved my Chariot as Niklas suggested – lack of a battle log from Whomp makes me think I succeeded in escaping his attention.
My Westernmost Ekindu presses closer to Whompland… still no sign of enemy resistance.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/53-FrontLines.jpg


At home, my new swordsmen moves into position in Sumer along with the chariots ready for upgrade. I’ll have one more veteran Chariot next turn, and I will be turning on research. Ur starts work on a Worker. I think I’ll build 2 before I do another settler?
Alphabet received from Niklas, no problem. :hatsoff:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/53-Core.jpg

The Zambrano is a swordsman, named after Carlos Zambrano of the Chicago Cubs (cubsfan).

The Zambrano is a swordsman, named after Carlos Zambrano of the Chicago Cubs (cubsfan).
Very nice touch! :thumbsup:

No battle log from Whomp suggests he didn't attack my Jag either, wonder where he went. :hmm: I have the save, but it'll be a few hours before I can look at it.

Sigh, this is getting harder by the minute.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/9875/054blockingsb5.png

The front stack is two spears, the second stack is a spear, two archers and a warrior. The problem is that the BABEs have way better units total here than what I'm facing them with, there are at least two MWs apart from Beorn's units shown. I have only my mobility to make use of, and I have to make the best of that. But the BABEs are playing it really clever here, kudos to them.

In the south, Whomp is trying evasive maneuvers for some reason:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4240/054southxv7.png

This turn he can reach a mountain without fighting though, and I think that's what he will do. G_W, defenses on the ready?

– Turn 54 –

Calm before the storm.

I restarted my research this turn. – only took 10% science to get HBR in 1 turn. :)
Some MMing in the core gets me another worker from Ur next turn – then it’s back on settler duty.
I’ve got a bunch of chariots stacked in Sumer, ready for upgrade and MW-killing duty next turn.
I moved my swordsmen into place on my Iron hill, in closer proximity to where Whomp is likely to emerge. Hopefully he’ll walk right up next to me, and not know it till it’s too late.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/54-Core.jpg


On the Western Front – I move my chariot into position to strike wherever Whomp moves his MWs. Hopefully the RNG will be kind and let me kill one.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/54-Frontlines.jpg

My Westernomost Ekindu pushes closer to Whomp land – still no sign of enemy units. The Uber-warrior of doom is probably lying in wait for me when I get closer :scared:

Looking good. Regarding the sword though, he will be able to see it if he steps on either of the plains tiles W-SW or W-NW of there. I would move him one step east, to the grassland mine. Then every turn you can move W-E, up on the hill to check where he is and possibly strike, but back again so he can't see you. :evil:

Excelent idea Niklas! I'll certainly do that. :salute:

This is getting to be tremendously tense! I have no advice to offer - just a plea for the RNG to be fair :worship:

Minimize the effect of the RNG - stack your units. Attacking the mounted warriors with a chariot there means your best realistic result (which is still less than 50%) is that you kill one mounted warrior then lose your chariot on the counter-attack. More than 50% of the time, you lose a unit for no gain.

That's a good point Chamnix - I originally hatched the plan with the chariot back when there was just 1 MW in the field.

It'd probably be smarter to send the chariot home, and upgrade to a horseman now that Whomp has 2 MW stacked out there.

Thanks for pointing that out!

Chamnix has the right of it: Stack your units at all times. Having them spread out in ones and twos just invites harassment attacks from Horsemen and MWs from the BABE stacks.

I would start moving you're citys closer to whomp land right behind that mountain range.

I'm not sure I want to be too close to the mountains before the pass is secure. Makes it too easy for Whomp to hide in the Mountains, then strike at will.

Perhaps I should send my next settler from Ur down to that hill in the pass... assuming I can take care of the current crop of MWs.
Thoughts on that?

I played this turn with a severe headache, so it certainly wasn't perfect, I would have moved differently in the north had I another chance, but alas.

But the good news is from the south, where I saw this sight:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7075/055southnd5.png

and figured that the regular Jag wasn't good for much other than maiming, hoping for a kill, didn't even bother to check the odds this time. But yay for heroism anyway:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8074/055killcv4.png

Dunno if that was really the clever thing to do though, considering I might lose track of the northern MW now. We'll have to be very careful to try to track his whereabouts (asuming he doesn't turn back and kill me, but I wouldn't have in his shoes).

In the north, the BABEs are still playing it really clever, outright outsmarting me:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1631/055northblockdw3.png

As I said I don't really like the moves I chose, but at least I'm safe for now. I'm thinking I might hug the high places for a while, let them pass if they want to, he can't keep a block against me all the time.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6461/055runforthehillsye1.png

Looks like you did good to me Niklas!
And I can't claim a headache for not seeing what better options you had.

Anyway - Thanks for knocking off one MW in the south for me. :hatsoff: I wonder where the other one went? :hmm:

I expect to have time to play my turn in about 2 hours or so.

General_W, if you can spare a few Enkidus from MP duty, you might consider sending them to the mountains to act as a floating defensive shield. If you can "trap", at least temporarily, some of the Whomper's MWs in the mountains, you effectively negate his current speed advantage. He'll be forced to either do a time-consuming end run or attack you on the mountains. I think even a regular Enkidu on a mountain will have equal or better odds against a vet MW.

Also, the BABEs now have a significant power advantage with their UUs since your guys' early UU advantage has mostly worn out. Fighting them on their terms--such as by taking on MW with horseman in an open confrontation--doesn't seem to promising, IMHO.

One possible solution: use the cost-effectiveness of your cheap spears. Manufacture Enkidus in droves, throw in a bunch of catapults, and then use a slow SoD. Trading MWs for Enkidus (30 shields to 10 shields) might prove too costly for Whomp, even if he kills two Enkidus for every lost MW.

Just my $0.02. :)

Yeah - that's actually a reall good point Othniel.
Thanks for jumping in!

Especially since it looks like I'm going to get a breather here from the Whomp Invasion, it might be a good idea to start work on that Stack of Doom to go make trouble.

That strategy will create a support issue – but Ur can keep spitting out settlers to keep my support costs low, as my other towns build a barracks, and then pump out Ekindus.

There's also a War Weariness issue – but with an eventual plan to switch to Monarchy, that shouldn't be un-manageable either.

I was supposed to start work on writing next…

Niklas = Alphabet, Masonry, Mathematics, Literature
General_W/Cubsfan = Horseback Riding, Writing, Map Making


But since Niklas beat me to it, I'll go for Masonry instead, as Mathematics for the Catapults is a high priority for us, methinks.

Aye, Othniel has some good points. But throwing in some swords in that SoD will certainly be worthwhile. The horses are really only good for home defense, where we have the advantage of better vision and movement (roads), so you will always have the attack opportunity.

As for research, I went for Writing since I find it more likely that the BABEs have gone for it already, going for a slingshot of some kind. Masonry might have more chances for an SGL, hence my deviation from the plan. :)

I see Whomp killed my Jag after all. That's great, it means I slowed that first MW down by two turns. :D

– Turn 55 –

Sorry for the big delay in posting this update! I played this save in way to big of a hurry right before we had company over and made a few mistakes :blush:

I’m breathing a little easier defensively, as Niklas killed one of the MWs in the plains, and the other one apparently turned around to go home? At any rate, I can’t see him anymore.

I see now that Whomp did fall back to kill Niklas’s Jag – maybe I should have hung around with my chariot for an attempt at revenge… but I expected Whomp to continue on, and my odds of victory weren’t that great anyway.
Water under the bridge now, I turned my veteran Chariot around to head home for upgrade.

My westernmost Ekindu presses on, still no sign of Whomp Resistance.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/55-TheWest.jpg



I discovered Horseback Riding, and upgraded 4 Chariots to Horesmen.
Here’s where my mistakes came in – I forgot to send the tech to Niklas, and I forgot to turn research back up above 10% - I’ll correct both of these things next turn. Sorry Niklas!

Fortunately, my judgment call to stop building another horse in Summer and produce a Swordsman instead is looking better :)
I’ll have 5 horses when my last chariot gets home for upgrade. That ought to be sufficient for now. So I’ll have Summer produce a few more Swords as it has the highest shield counts, and my other cities can make Veteran Ekindus when they’re done with their barracks. I’ll also jam in a catapult here and there as I get opportunity of course.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/55-Core.jpg


Final bit of good news:
After upgrading all my chariots, I was STRONG compared to Beorn, and AVERAGE compared to Whomp! :thumbsup:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/55-Military.jpg

No rush with HBR, I don't have any horses in my vicinity so I can't make use of it anyway. :rolleyes:

That's some really really good news about the relative strengths. Probably means that Beorn's whole army is on the prowl near me, and that Whomp's front runners aren't followed by a bigger stack. On the other hand, it means they are focusing on expansion... :scared:

Btw, question to killercane, are the MTDG changes to map and contact trading in effect for this game?

I’ll also jam in a catapult here and there as I get opportunity of course.
If you want to build cats you should spare a barracks and dedicate that town to cat building.
Or make cats the first builds of a town before you build the rax. Every "vet" cat is waste of the rax. :old:

Right. I was actually thinking that - but I appreciate you not taking that for granted. :)

First build for each new city will be good - and maybe I'll end up with a town without a baracks dedicated to just that... we'll see!

Btw, question to killercane, are the MTDG changes to map and contact trading in effect for this game?

Not that I recall, I will double check.

Just a reminder, we need Maths for cats. ;)

killercane, no worries, it doesn't really matter. It would have been nice to share the maps ingame, but we're already doing it here, just a matter of convenience.

Seems I gave the BABEs a bit of a pause with my random evasive maneuver. :lol:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6668/056standoffja9.png

He can't continue south without leaving at least one opening for a whack at an MW, and he can't attack the mountain without risking severe losses. In the end I'm sure he will continue anyway, and put a dispensible warrior up to block the last spot.

killercane, is the Eye of Sauron warrior an addition of yours, or is it Whomp's own creation?

– Turn 56 –

Another quiet turn with no sign of Whomp.

I'm sending one of my Ekindu's to go keep watch on the mountain range – and I'm sending my 2 veteran horsemen towards the plains also. I'm keeping my 2 regular horsemen at home for now – till I can verify the location of Whomp's MW that's near my territory. My veteran chariot is on his way home for upgrade.
Science goes to 60% - and that's enough to get me Masonry in 3 turns and still turn a profit :D - I'll be very sad when my golden age ends.
Horseback Riding sent to Niklas.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/56-Core.jpg


And here's an F-11 update:
As if we needed verification that the Bears were back in expansion mode, they've passed me in land area again. :sad:
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c232/GeneralW/56-F11.jpg