Niklas, cubsfan, Council roster list ...

zyxy
Aigburth
Niklas
peter grimes
fe3333au
Nikodemus
AutomatedTeller
General_W
Paul#42
tomasjj
donsig
TheLoneMan
dl123654
tonyf12
Judge Dredd
sirdanilot
cubsfan6506
Hasdrubal Barca

... bug off!!






Yeah, we've been slacking on the spoiler :p We're still discussing our team strategy right now, often over msn - I'll make sure to post transcripts every now and then.



Now for some content.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Cage01.png

So we have mid-AA UU's, they have early AA UU's, the starts are super uber good. You figure it out: we're happy about it.

I'm smack in the middle of the place while Whomp is to my South-West. I'll be tanking and he'll be gunning.

Opening plan is to pull a few scouts out each. I'll send my first to the NE, since we're in the general SW, and the next ones should go north or east. The both of us will send 3-4 warriors to look out ahead and see what we can find.

Right now I'll just guess the starts are symmetrical and that they'll have an Enkidu meat shield handy. This will be a bummer but we'll have to manage.

More to come ;)

Here's the start. Not a bad start with river cow, lux, bg's and chops early. Will get off a couple warriors early. Research set to wheel.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8422/whomperroomvk9.jpg

Good luck. You may need it, or maybe the council will need it. ;)

I'm a pragmatist. I believe in building up my luck by myself. It's much more reliable :D

Fear not, lurkers, one day we'll have hit enter enough to put a warrior scout out ...

Question is whether I should finish the next warrior in 3 or 4? If I shift down food from 5 to 4 it can be done but will give me a odd food allotment. I'm inclined to keep food at 5 and grow to pop 3 in four turns.

I plan to head north after both hills. Is this a wraparound map btw?
Here's a pic...
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2318/whompfw4.jpg

Doing it at 4 you lose a few shields but in the end what's 5 shields vs 1 pop?

I sent my scout North, it'll go E-NE to find trouble ASAP. If you're going NW, I can send my #2 to find you and get back on scouting track afterwards. I counted 3 warriors before my first settler so we still have 2 spares, one each and then meeting guy, for scouting directions. 1N, 1W, 1E?

Maybe meeting guy could take a hike around our likely settling lands ?

That's kind of my feeling B. As Charis said "Growth is power".

As far as our second warriors we could meet in the middle and head north?

This is our joint map, on scale. Minimap is sloppy but I think the picture is still clear.

We are very close, my second warrior can make the trek on its own, really.

Nice job on the map B. My scale is way off so that really helps.
OK along the hill and NW I'll go with #1.

I'll keep a bit of suspense before the next pic, but man, that's more BG's than I've ever seen.

Ok, Counting the wines, that's 44 BG's in the near vicinity. Someone wanted things to get bloody - bloody fast.

You want those despotic golden ages to be useful dont you?

And here I was thinking about delaying that :lol:

I really wonder what they have to talk about, this early, in the other spoiler. They picked 2 of the best early disruption units in the game. We have better UU's for mounting large scale attacks, they don't want that, they harass us with jags and EW.

Maybe they're wondering where to search. Maybe they're pondering whether to race off to chivalry, builder-style. Maybe they're searching for players to replace players as they go - they're already one down :p

So, well, this is where the mentalities really shift from one team to the other - we'll see how good planning fares against reacting.

Turn 16, F11 intel:
Both of them are AGR but neither grew as fast as Whomp to 4. Mined cows? Forests?
Cubsfan got a settler first, went from size 3 to size 1, so it wasn't on growth but he probably had time for an EW first. Doubtful he'd have two.
Niklas is getting 7 shields at size 3, he definitely mined his cow and working a forest or something.

Bronze and Wheel are in but I took the screenie on player switch screen so that I wouldn't have to move it around. You have horses in your cross, Whomp.

My warrior will hit a water wall North and head west from there, I think you should go South.

FIRST CONTACT!

As expected, Niklas did not declare war upon finding me. He ate it though :cooool:

Wow. What did you kill?

Congrats on first blood.

Just a 3/3 jag, but now he is dead and I keep exploring.

Just noticed something in the civilopedia: someone didn't want to provoke unwarranted golden ages ...

That is for you? Send me the save to let me look into it. I think I got a little too cute w/ Cubsfans swordsman.

Here you go:

this is my turn, the last received from cubsfan.

Ok the only problem is in upgrading, you can still build legions normally. However, it looks to upgrade to a sword, rather than a legion, and since you cant build swords, you cant upgrade warriors. After some searching, the good news is I can go in and upgrade it manually (subtract 60 gold/delete warrior and add in a legion). So play on, just when you upgrade a warrior post it here or pm me.

Well if Whomp and I go according to plan, this is going to be a very exhausting off-game relationship, Mr Cane ;)

I take it from your post you can't edit the build tree, right? Even if it means for me to manually not build swords (I can vow for that) and take 2 turns per upgrade (warrior-sword-legion) every time I need it...

I dont think so. I can ask Rik when I see him around.

Sooooooo someone got a Golden Age!!

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage08.jpg

Assuming he mined his cow, he is now about to have mined his 3rd tile - that's 18 worker turns in the bin for him. Within 20 turns he won't have enough pop to really compensate either, so this GA is a radical waste of time for him.

His jag was veteran so he built an early barrack. If he did that, there's no reason he wouldn't pile jags from scratch. He's had enough time for 5, 6, maybe 7. If he pops a settler soon we can remove one from that total. 6 jags coming for my butt is rather scary.

He might (well, imo he should!) go for a pile-up of 1-turn jags (he needs 7 pop for that at 4fpt, 5fpt GA if he bothers to irrigate over his mined cow). If that's the case, we'll need to hold the choke with all we've got. Won't be easy, but meanwhile he doesn't expand, which is all good.

Beorn and I are keeping a close eye on Niklas' capital to see if he'll pop rush through in GA. So far nothing has been rushed.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7683/demoga8.jpg

Noteworthy: Ur has grown smaller twice, meaning he is most likely doing low-pop settlers. Niklas hasn't gone down in pop yet. Whomp and I are working 5fpt most of the time, with odd ends for more units these days.

Ok, we're due for a full debrief - Whomp was away for a few turns and we've been slacking on spoilers; got some laundry lined up so if you have questions (Whomp or anyone), shoot and it's coming up.

OK B--What's the situation? It sounds like you've given them a bit of a beating. I opened the save and notice a jag warrior on a mountain near you. He's within striking distance of one of my MW's.

Where to settle? On iron so I can get you some?

Are we going CB so we can get in a government or for monarchy sling?

I was chessboarding that jag, if you like your 60% odds over the mountain I'd definitely take him out. Otherwise we can always wait and see what he does, or send a couple warrior fodders.

They are still down Alpha so I was planning on going philosophy (slowly, ~24 turns building a cashflow) while you could race through Polytheism (~24 as well, counted beakers vs your gold input) and establish a pair of monarchies for the both of us out of that free tech. Not the original plan but there's an opportunity there that I think we'd be fools to miss.

One spot I liked for you is next to the wheat, on the other side of the gold mountain: 2 chops, low worker turns in plains, is on river.

Another spot I liked was besides the deer: it puts one city of yours for a front eastwards. More on that to come with the full debrief.

Do you want to take this turn? It would help for me to get back in the swing of things.

Will do, I'm just finishing the debrief, one more or one less won't add much to the load. Still half into the laundry though, so ETA 15.

Battle reports are at
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242204&page=10
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242204&page=11

Action starts on turn 32:

32http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage32.jpg

Someone never played AW, his troops are all scattered. He did pillage me twice but that won't really slow me down as much as not settling and lousy GA will slow him so I'm cool with that. He has 1 stack of 2 units so I plan on attacking it and keeping units within the cities. Reinforcements are underway.

33http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage33.jpg

Turn 33 sees the first MW action of the game, where one jag is balls deep in poop. I have an archer lined up so I play dare and (IIRC) leave a worker undefended while sending units to cover for the spear that went too far and attacked a jag. MW hunting parties are sent left and right to find the survivors of the first attack.

It's a real shame (for him anyways) that he did not consolidate troops outside of my roads' range, take a position where he can attack either of my cities with all his stack, and take one of them. He definitely could have. Instead, he scouted and pillaged 2 tiles. Way to go, GA!

Next interesting stuff happens on turns 36 and 37 where the chessboard play pays out: one of his wounded jags has been hiking, the other has been running. Both are soon going to be missing.

36http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage36.jpg
37http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage37.jpg

After that the enkidus show up, with a major new threat: a path through the South for General W (yes, Cubsfan officially bailed out (probably shi†less)).

A new guy shows up North on turn 38 before I can dam our land-bridge with spears.

38http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage38.jpg
39http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage39.jpg

Then I establish our presence with an attack on the enkidu: chances were on my side but really, it was a win-win; I lose: he gets a GA. I sent your warrior as GA fodder that same turn so we're good with Sumeria's GA. He could have a GA almost as productive as yours if he had more pop. Right now we have the best GA (i believe) and mine is yet to come.

I could have pushed it forwards this turn but I'd feel better opening it up so that 1 jag can sneak through only to get eaten by a mountie.

40http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage40.jpg

So there we are: jag on the mountain, landbridge dammed, passage east below the sea and both of them hit their GA's. I produced a settler from your capital once it was certain to grab 10spt after shrink, this way you lost no real productivity. We'll need good coordination if we want to really push the landbridge down to a more manageable 2-tiler where I would lay down a defensive city and you could keep fresh reserve mounties on nearby roads.

41http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage41.jpg

Possible hazard here with the EW but he won't reach your place before you do, or before you have a fresh mountie up and running.

I'm headed towards philo, will then do MM for right of passage agreements. You are running down towards polytheism and a timely monarchy. We're both good to go with gold and neither of us can effectively upgrade anything. I planned on settling 2S of my iron to have a flatland disconnect spot and get really good warrior upgrade profitability.

They will be at the end of their GA's so it might be that they will send the biggest threat right around that time so we'd be wise to consider our timing anarchy very very well. Other than that, we will beat them to a government like they've rarely been beaten before.

the enkidu pulled a double move on you, so don't worry, next turn he won't be able to move (DM's used to be much trickier!)

Next move he has will be met with deadly arrows.

Settler due next turn, will settle 2S of my iron, next settler after will move North to establish a foothold on the frontline.

I didn't notice the DM so I rushed the MW in Ditka Falls. I think I should whack the guy since I'll have 3 vet MW's available to hit him. I can't wait till you get legions. :devil:

Started Myst and it's due in 5.

Sic em ... sic em ... sic em!!!

Hopefully we can push our luck and fortify several troops on the 2-tile choke while waiting for a settler to reinforce our position with walls.

I got incredibly lucky. My warrior wasted his enkidu. We've got a major league upperhand here. I've started a granary in the capital since there's 3 MW's around the area...and a wounded warrior that took one for the team. :D

I posted in their thread a question so I will put it here too. Where the heck could ivory be if you wanted to build the SOZ?

My bet on the (probable so far, from our map) island that shows just south of the bridge. Looks like a nasty place to keep an active military at and it also would require a rushed harbour on the other end. The kind of place where a lot of strategical calls have to be made: keeping so much on this side, so much on the other side, spending on boats or legions, etc.

No battle? :huh:

GPS General_W.

They're off balance: they think we'd be reckless enough to attack a vet enkidu on a mountain. Attacking enkidus on mountains at home for protection is one thing, taking one out in the open is just foolish...

Either way I guess they assume we're overagressive. How can we use this?

Let's keep pressing forward. We have the speed advantage and honestly once the legions start popping they can't match MW's and legions.

I also have zero concerns about some random enkidu on the high ground. At some point he has to move off the high ground. Then he gets whacked.

Closing in on the philo monarchy sling!! B--I'll send you CB now so I can forward poly when it's time.

Here's a look at the southeastern Front. Plenty of units still at home including a newly minted MW, couple spears, archer, warrior, settler along with 2 MWs and workers in the works.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8573/cageng5.jpg

He's closer to that choke than you are. One thing we could do is push a spearman forward to that mountain and plug an outpost. Mountain outposts see 3 tiles far across mountains and a pair of spears (later legions) will definitely deter them from hostile intentions. 3 tiles means we'd see all the way across the peninsula, whatever happens.

:goodjob: with the jag; their move now :borg:

They have a good stack up there, 5 jags is a bunch we don't want our horses exposed to - we'd probably lose much more than them if we just pushed across right now, he knows the terrain. I say let him move while we can monitor him and try to find a weak spot.

Err...what peninsula, Beorn? I didn't see a peninsula in Whomp's screenie. I assume you're talking about the choke where the Enkidu is on the hill, but I'm still :confused:

Yeah, it's not really a peninsula, more like a piece of land that the sea doesn't quite surround... :lol:

The word you're looking for is 'isthmus' :)

I seriously dislike the look of this volcano. It has range to hit your MW's anywhere and there ain't much we can do to circle them around.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage56.jpg

Here's what I propose we do, though if you'd like to hit them we could but they have a defensive position established already.

1st, I split troops. This is the risky part. It would be 1 Spear, 1 spear/1 archer, 1 spear / 1 archer, warrior in clockwise order. They could fully well decide to blow their jags on one stack and get an opening to mounties, but they would need 3+ jags getting through and they have 5. Still, this is the danger zone.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage56b.jpg

Then, if all goes well, I fall back on one square, opening up for your mounties to take the hills. This is the good part. I'd try attacking the present jags with archers: rather lose an archer than a mountie.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage56c.jpg

Holding for comments, and again, I could very well send my warrior and archers hiking. Odds aren't at their best though, mind you, but we'd get (yuck imio!) our shot at killing some (not free, they get 105% bonus fortified on volcano) cheap jags.

Here's the thing. If we clog this choke then we can strike with MW's and legions going the other direction.

I think we should feign resistance at this point, let monarchy come in and start cranking out legions and MWs they're screwed trying to push through this choke. I think the game is in our hands to win or lose not theirs if we press the other choke.

Good thinking. I'll fortify this turn, you move back 1W, I fortify the river square? There'll be a settler on its way within long if we decide to take this course of action. Forces them down the hills in plain flatland if they want to risk it :borg:

More emphasis on workers and iron once I get my 2 new cities up.

Good thinking. I'll fortify this turn, you move back 1W, I fortify the river square? There'll be a settler on its way within long if we decide to take this course of action. Forces them down the hills in plain flatland if they want to risk it :borg:

More emphasis on workers and iron once I get my 2 new cities up.
Yup. Let's let them try to push through. Over the next 20 turns we should have complete control of both ends.

I guess it'll come up to which choke do we decide to hold on to: there's several locations, with blind spots and all, and putting a city somewhere on the bridge would enable us to see them coming from further away while retaining our ability to coordinate movements: it's much harder to get good movement breakdown for 2 on a 2-tiler. Eventually we'll have to make this decision, for now let's skip our piece turn and play pawns.

Got philo in 1 whenever you send poly, right now I'm holding off at 10% research.

Poly this turn, pre-accepted, or we lose philo on another tech, which is bad.

Gotcha covered Cap'n.

Keep up with the updates, boys! It's more interesting reading when I get both sides of the story rather than only the Council meetings constantly going on in the other spoiler thread ;)

We can't keep up with that amount of bureaucracy, really, but we try and coordinate our chats ...

Hail to the :king: !

Legions ETA 6 turns, should have 4 upgrade-ready vets by then. They'll take a run down there and see if something happens.

Seems like Gen_W is stacking on that hill. He's sending his enkidu that was nearby back in that direction.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/314/deathmatchya4.jpg

This is the best shot we'll have of them for a while so I'm posting it in:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Choke71.jpg

Jungles/forests removed so we can see the borders. I pillaged the tile instead of scouting 1E further, which may or may not be an error. Niklas has got to have low commerce if he skipped building roads. A shame he had swords handy, this could've been a good expedition.

Mountie and warrior 1W would be wise up north in the strait.

Whenever you want me to suicide my archer down south, do tell.

I'll need reinforcements top but so will you down there. You regroup your stuff, I'll regroup mine and we'll see how this goes?

I'll move the MW's and warrior 1W. I think we should let Gen_W's units move onto low ground...if they don't then they attrite themselves on the mountains. If they try hitting units on moutains then we have the advantage due to their damage.

Eek...I hate the enkidu trade off here. I wonder if I should back down the MW's towards our cities so we can catch them on low ground and keep the other units fortified on high ground. The high ground is really mitigating some of the MW's advantages.
Here's the stacks coming...
http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3829/deathmatch1yc9.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5483/deathmatch2tm3.jpg

So much maneuvering, so little fighting! C'mon, let's see some action! :hammer:

Oh yes, action coming as soon as they lower their guard and step down to low ground :p

In pictures, the latest manoeuvering developments:

The Northern Front has caught 2 mounties unprepared and has kept pushing towards my cities. Next turn, a city, a wall and a legion will appear ... or will it be more legions?

As soon as I get my GA, I'm set for 4-turn legion/settler making.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Sanstitre2.jpg

The Southern front is more of a wildcard. We are starting to be swamped by Enkidus. This could be bad on a short timeframe but as soon as we hit catapults, it'll become a drag on their economy more than the work it involves on our plate.

There is some dangerous material here, namely the horsemen and the mountain spears. Attacking spears on mountains is borderline-stupid but it could give abreak to their units. I'd strongly suggest to wait for reinforcements before sending mounties downhill, especially since there's a number of EW that will take hits before we start doing some useful damage to swords.

If they come North, I'll put a city and roads up but not all will be done on time. If they come South, I'll put up a wall on the mountains with Legions and force them to walk grasslands. Either way, all my new legions are headed east-south-east.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Sanstitre-1.jpg

News from QSC:

We are still #2 and #3 in score, preceded by a heavily REXed General W and a heavily Jagged Niklas. The good General has reached the point of settling right on top of his partner's lands.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage80-1.jpg
We just might have found a safe passage Westwards
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage80-2.jpg
And the stacks are looming closer for a second wave of attacks on my civ. Guesswork says they'll try to both strike at me rather than take separate takes in the fight. Hopefully, we can use terrain and speed to our advantage once in my territory. We won't have RoP for another while though, so all bets are off.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage80-3.jpg

OK we were about even on the battle report. He lost 5 EW's and I lost a MW and archer. All the units are damaged so that helps. I would move your legion directly south. My guess is he may try to meet the two stacks and countinue along the mountains and hills to my capital. I have 4 spears/2 cats out of the picture along with the ones you see here. I'm upgrading my warriors to swords and will have 3 in 5 turns along with additional MWs.

Stack two will have a tough time attacking.
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8805/councilzj8.jpg

Here's the battlefield at the end of my turn:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage84-1.jpg

My moves highlighted in orange, with the idea that you'd do the purple arrows and Niklas would do the green one. Niklas looks like he'll either try to head for you or flank me at this point. I'd figure he'll take the mountain ASAP, or bluff me into dividing my guard. With 4 moves roads, no obstructing rivers and legion defenders on my side, I doubt he'll manage.

If you DM your spear from the N mountain (selected alone, apart from the MW's) and the ones in Urlacher, you can have 4 up on the mountain waiting for him. That should convince him not to move.

Now that I have legions in your backyard I think we'd need to give them precise orders, otherwise they'll just be in your way. With that in mind, I could either play very aggressively with them (attack his N stack as soon as possible), put up a wall on the S-SE of Urlacher, or directly bypass everything and head East to the edge of the mountain chain, attacking Gen_W if a window opens.

Either way it'll have to be coordinated with your moves otherwise I'll block you off and we'll get the lower hand of the deal, like with the archer back at the beginning of his incursion :blush:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage84-2.jpg

OK sounds good. I'll follow these moves as you suggest. I think the spears on the gold hill should head east and SE and fortify.

My northern attack force will be MWs and the southern attack force will be swords.

I think there's a good MGL opportunity with the southern stack since it's primarily EWs and two of three injured attackers.

He'll try consolidating on the mountain S of the volcano, that's for sure. Maybe I have my half-empty glasses on but I was just thinking about containing him as long as possible, not going after his second stack ... risky, though the idea doesn't seem bad at all otherwise.

It's not necessary however it is mostly cannon fodder in that stack. With Gen_W in anarchy hopefully they'll move to the low ground for some opportunities. High probability targets would be nice with his 10s EWs

I'm considering building the pyramids. Sasquatch has a steady 15spt and will increase as it grows and I mine more stuff. It would cost us a dozen of legions in the short run though.

Niklas' swords have taken a nap on the other side of my border. That's what he was after: healing. I'm in no position to engage him this turn though :( I guess it wasn't as tactically thoughtful as I expected he'd be, although it does screw me sideways for now. I'd have loved to jump him while his spears were at 2-3/4. He obviously has more coming up but so do I.

They haven't shared Monarchy yet, Niklas is still a despot :lol:

You've got a tough round of choices to make with that stack there. Either you attack him on a mountain or you wait for him to consolidate his whole force together. With the amount of defensive cover we have for your cities, I'd attack the top stack now, to injure everything and thus slow him down.

A map at the end of your turn and orders for the legions would be nice. I don't think I screwed up but after looking at your save I think it could've been better on my end.

I felt I needed to get in a better position to attack his stack. If I hit them this turn I would've been in the open with the MWs. Here's a picture.
Underneath the sword is another sword and MW. There's 2 MW's under the spear west of Urlacher. If he tries to blow through the spear fortified on the forest he'll have to use one of his two healthy horses and his odds are 28% win and 36% withdraw. If he wins then he'll have a lot of action from attackers next turn.
My odds with MW's hitting on forests is 58% win and 22% withdraw. The elite is 71% and 16%.

B--depending on what how he moves here's my thoughts for the legions...

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5285/councilvd1.jpg

Oh, I was thinking about the small mountain stack - more risky but hurts directly his attack units. Well, next turn he consolidates, but we'll be much more ready.

Unless I see something odd, I'll send 3 legions south and hit him ASAP, unless there's some blockade action that would be more beneficial.

I'm thinking about sending the odd one East to scout the border from a mountain top. I doubt a fortified mountain legion is worth wasting troops on - there's no way he'll beat it without losses.

I'm not so inclined to hit him with a 3 vs. 4. I think that stack will be handled easier than the huge EW stack simply due to numbers. I think their next move is huge for both sides and could determine a lot in this game.

Oh and quatloos due next turn. What did we say I should research next? I forgot...

I'll research faster so I'll take construction, then the only other tech left is CoL.

I'm due for 3-4 more warrior upgrades then I'll set full steam to research towards construction. I'm not sure whether to go full or min towards Chivalry, but I do know we want to get there before them. Or win this game before that. I'd like to see us having Eng and Chivalry in the end, it makes everything less of a hassle, but I see no need to go further than that.

I have the bad feeling that he'll sit there on the mountain and heal for 3 turns.

Here's option #1: we keep moving forward to block.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage86.jpg

Option #2 is to avoid a stalemate at all cost: we open the door.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage86unorthodox.jpg

This is highly debateable, but if he jumps in the hole, we have a turn of whackage on him and then he only really has 3 swords to attack with. The spears you have can cover Urlacher and we get to farm for elites.

Of course there's risks, but I'd rather take this one than have him heal his horses to full HP.

I like the idea of opening the trap door. We really need him on low ground to make a dent in his stack.

Trap laid on both fronts. Let's see how the mice react.

Well, he seems decided to get a heal: nothing moved, horses are back to 2HP.

Should I take the hill? If you open up the hill he may jump on it or not, but for it to be convincing and useful it needs to be this turn. If he lets me go on the hill, I get a defence bonus he won't try to face and I'm in a no-river attack position against his stack for later. You get a lower defence forest but still will be able to catapult him down a little.

If we go this course I'll take the horse grass this turn.

I don't really see any other brilliant alternative.

Either way, whatever we do, I'll send one legion across mountaintops eastwards.

... and for some odd reason, the computer won't take C3C today. It runs NWN2 and Civ4 (not 'fine', but they run) so it's a config glitch of sorts, but I'm still working on that. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have something, otherwise thursday for sure.

OK can you give me a picture of what your'e thinking with legions. We have another stack coming btw. To be expected I suppose.

One HD2600 in the box and I'm back in play.

That simple: I roll in behind you on the hill next turn. You should also move your warrior out of the way, up there. Next turn I'll have available workers to road under my feet as I engage Niklas. If he plays coy, I'll send troops towards his base but will make sure to road as I go, to be able to reinforce either way.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage87.jpg

B--I got the GW save but not yours.

My side is still slippery but he's just biting for time, eventually I'll catch him.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage89.jpg

Here's the situation: he moved, kindof weird, especially since he has some units not fully healed and he didn't leave someone on the mountain to claim a defence tile +vision ... anyways, we need to control it. I will climb a Legion up there if you don't have a spear to spare.

Otherwise I would move one (two?) legion up on the forest and fortify the tile I'm on. Be prepared for his horses' onslaught, the rest will be MW fodder. Let him move first, you have a dreadful stack there.

Will finish my turn when you confirm me you have a spear lying around for the mountain, or not.

I would block with the legion on the mountain and then the other stack will be stuck since they took such a battering on his last round.
This one needs our attention and I think we can take it down quite a bit.

I'd like to use the spear fortified on the forest north with my swords/cats while I hit his stack with the MWs. I know it's across a river but this will be the best chance for low land hits. It will be near impossible for him to run through either of us without taking more hits on his attack units with either stack.

Alright, legions are split, fingers crossed for him to move onto us.

I was really agressive with my legions, hoping they'd think we're desperate. I sure do wish they bring whatever forces they have to attack. That would be devastating for them. Until then, I'm about 5g short of a legion upgrade :please:

I'll send the cash...

I think tactically I was wrong on my attack. In hindsight, I should've waited for them to hit me.

The only mistake was cover, as far as I'm concerned. You had good enough odds to attack, not to leave units standing there to be shot at. You want odds to be at least as favorable as the ratio of unit costs when you attack like this, including the counter-attack cost-odds.

This is partly why MW's are so tempting to attack: 30 shields down if you go kill it with an EW, 20 even if it takes 2. Legions on the other hand would take a lot of fire to go down and not be worth the 30 shields they cost me, for them.
So I can go all out legions while you'll need more spears (I wouldn't say and more swords though, MW's are awesome with cover, and moreso the cheaper the cover is).

There will be a next time, though :devil:

Just got my save, do you remember what you had for troops in there? AKA do I need to take out 1, 2 or 3 EW's?

I'm done with Niklas' not wanting to fight, I'll send my 6 worker doom squad upstream within 3. I have enough legions to make the grass shiver all the way to Continuation anyways.

Request from the peanut gallery: I'd really appreciate a few screenshots of the big-picture view of your land - the Council types have been posting more pictures, and it's fun to see how the game is progressing. It would be even more fun to see both sides of the story :)

Since we're not relying on outside advice (did I actually say that? :mischief: ), we didn't bother doing it a lot so far. So if there's interest, I'll post the super gigantic world map from our side, when Whomper tells me how nuts I have to go against the blue stack.

I couldn't fit the whole thing all the way to Continuation in the one picture, especially zoomed in, but here's what it looks like.http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage91.jpg

The last update we got at cdz you guys were on their border! what happened?

Yes, we had a scouting party on their border :p

On the northern choke, I tried pushing the frontline further but Niklas outmade me in unit count. Now I have more cities and a GA so I should be able to put together a sizeable counter-counter-attack.

On the southern pass, they went from disorganized horse pumping to Enkidu swarming. We're still good to go but you can't push forward against that, not before building up more mounties and catapults - more expensive units, but ones that survive much better as well.

So all in all we are back at home defending but in a good position. Gen_W is in Monarchy right now which implies he is totally strapped for gold, with all the Enkidus. Niklas had a slower start to cripple me and it hasn't paid off. We've been in Monarchy for what, 20 turns more than they have? I think this will make a difference in the end. This, and the middle ages we'll reach ages before them.

I wouldn't call it a "calculated" setback, because you just roll with the puck in this kind of game, but we're in good, controlled shape. We'll have to manage against a strong civ: Gen_W is way ahead in pop and score so he settled a lot and probably grabbed good (AGR) land. OTOH Niklas has an obsolete UU and a crippled empire (with a mined cow capital, I must remind everyone).

I have a strong empire with well developped tiles during a Monarchy GA, they'll never get that chance. I'm not using it for infra, however, since we have neither the techs for infra nor a big interest in making it past the point where you build up a number of settlers, workers and legions - except if we do knights.

Whomp has a more difficult position but he's AGR/COM, possibly the 2 best traits for effortless comebacks: passive food and corruption killing is huge. Both our UU's are arguably better than knights for their costs so we'll most likely go for Feud-Mono-Chiv-Eng. I do Mono and Eng, he does Feud and Chiv. This enables him to build templars, me to build trebs, and it doesn't disable my legions. Legions are beyond awesome in multiplayer because of the scary 3 defense. Mounties are great but the 1 defense is dangerous, so knights could be worthwhile.

Thus this game is still up for grabs and I plan on making a strong move soon, right after Niklas' brand new assault.

GrrrRRRRrrr, Gen_W showing some teeth :ninja: ;)
Some recent highlights (ignoring the battle results that fell within expected ranges)

Turn 89:
Council loses an 84% odds to win battle.

Turn 90:
Council loses a 89% odds-to-win battle.
Bears win 3 straight battles that each only have a 55% chance to win.

Turn 91:
Bears win a 39% battle and 35% battle back to back – and every battle that turn without fail.

Turn 94:
Council loses a 92% odds to win battle.

Last turn:
Bears win a flawless stream of 6 battles, odds of winning on each are between 48% and 63% at the highest.

Seems like I'm detecting a trend there…
And that's not even going all the way back the original warrior of doom who could win battles with the odds 98% against him.

So basically, this thread should be called the "Niklas & cubfan6506 v Whomp & Beorn-el-Feared & RNG" thread.

Does this mean Niklas and I can get a third player to join our team? :mischief:
Emphasis added on the bold line: the odds have been bad for them, but not devastating - only devastating for their morale, if anything. They're not happy with the odds , and I can't blame them, although there is a really strong trend showing up here: fate favors the bold.

You don't see them with elite units on the field: they don't attack. They wait and wait and eventually, we attack, take chances, and the puck has rolled for us. Make that a lesson learned from this game for everyone ;)

I'd tell them to try and move their units' butts a little more but, you know, that would be against our own best interests.

So I'm having a hard time wiping that little grin off my face right now :)

Whomp and I have been chatting by IM and PM a lot, so that would increase our post-count somewhat, but not quite to that level. What usually happens is we have similar ideas and agree within 2 lines anyways. With the amount of active lurkers on the other side, however, there's bound to be all kinds of ideas thrown around and I must say I'd be willing to call it "Complete Team Council v Whomp & Beorn-el-Feared & RNG."

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage95.gif

But that debate is for another time. I don't like arguing with Niklas anyways, he always throws these arguments that he knows make no sense /are already refuted and then I'm all mixed up, my arms fall and I lose my motivation to reply.

Whatever the de facto settings of this game are, I've been enjoying it, from the "OMG there's jags everywhere and he'll capture one of my cities for sure" turns to the "I hope I can pull 4/6 battles and at least the other ones should do some damage" ones. So it's all good.

But for the sake of thoroughness, let's just mention that you're all welcome to chip in on that topic. I wouldn't like it if this became a thread for everyone to discuss game strategies, but game questions and off-game chatter are always welcome - I try to answer them as well as I can, as the last post can illustrate.

I think that it generally balances out. In the MTDGII, The Council got lucky with some battles. Now their luck has turned here. Whatever, in the long run the RNG will balance out (unless you forget to make your sacrifices ;) ).

Double Post.

Nice recap B. I wish some of our Babe people would post.

Oh by the way you may have the Plague turn up periodically. Really cant remember what all is out there.

:lol:
Did anyone ever try plagues? I wonder what it does, and how it's triggered. If it goes with FP/jungle sickness, I think Niklas has a little more of that so it's all good :p

Looks like someone has been busy with the same idea I had, only he starts from halfway - unless he's done it all the way already ... !

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage98-2.jpg

And I mapped your southern coast for dot-mapping purposes.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage98.jpg

Your capital's SE side needs some populated fields :) and there's still 2-3 more river spots with BG's around.

3 legions on the hill, how many catapults do you have again? If you have 3-4 I'll let you slowly work them down, otherwise I could send 1 or 2 guys to soften his guys up there before you get an easy kill for your elite sword.

I have two cats to hit him next turn.

Elevation is on a hill with walls, add fortification bonus and you have 100% defense upgrade for units in there. How about we just completely ignore that place?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage100.jpg

Here's the roading progress, as soon as I can pull him out you'll have a free road running west of M-B-P. After that I'll road the east and you can have an even faster path up.

I'm also making a galley for expanding in the middle. That is, if any useful lux is in there, which I have no doubt there is.

Your mounties will no doubt prove extremely useful up there but I'm just not sure how much we can afford to commit that way. There needs to be a pre-emptive strike defense ready for the next wave of Sumerians and mounties are the best unit at that, which anyone can field at this stage - and at all, until cavalries anyways, imo.

I'm tempted to send the boys packing and get a little dirt under their soles by pillaging around in Sumerian land but I absolutely don't want to compromise the mountain pass' security. While you have breathing room to put every shield into settlers and workers, I encourage you to do so. We'll keep the fort.

I encourage you to bring a worker (with your spears) to outpost the tile I'm protecting, 3 vision range is awesome.

I still have 2 turns of GA left, after which I'm back to slow science like everybody. That means you'll have feudalism WAY before me at your current rate. It also means you very well could keep the gold for yourself and cash-rush/upgrade everything you've got. Losing a bunch of food to put an empire up together fast will be worthwhile.

OK B--I sent my MW's back towards Gen_W. Without protective cover there's not much I can do going towards Niklas as you say. I have a settler on the ground and five more finishing over the next few turns.

Here's a few ideas for placement. I'd like to get a couple coastals up so we might be able to back door them with galleys. Thoughts on dotmap? I don't like some of the distances but would like those coastals...

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1457/cage1dj6.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/6544/cage2yx1.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5246/cage3vg6.jpg

Right, the grid. That helps. Brb.

I'm sorry, I have a really really hard time working with the normal blue dots so I made a template with big idiot-friendly BG's.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterW.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterE.jpg

I copied your dotmap on it:http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterWWhomp.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterEWhomp.jpg

And tried my own:http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterWBeorn.jpg
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/CageDotterEBeorn.jpg

They are rather similar in the west but I thought there were really really good spots on the east side that deserved dots.

You also want to maximize the amount of tiles you can work and minimize the number of cities in which to build culture so CXxXC is doubleplusgood.

I wasn't sure whether to do 1 or 2 dots with white, black and orange. I'm leaning towards 1 for each, but I'm not sure where I'd place black and white myself.

West side:
Sayers Who has a lot of inland tiles it can work otherwise I wouldn't have put a dot on the horses. If it's too cramped, your red dot gives you horse tile access and allows me to have them :D

East side:
Dark green looked cramped, especially without water and with blue already grabbing deer. Removing it lets you move your teal up and free more space for cities on your direct S. I'm also really in favor of a city all the way East on the hill.

Either way, your iron and deer spots are probably best and least corrupt.

What do you think?

1) The current settler will go to 1SE of the deer. Good spot
2) Sayers Who settler will hit the horse spot which totally makes sense to get you some horseys. :D
3) Halas Hall settler will go 2W and capture potentially six bgs on the coast.
4) Ditka Falls settler should probably go another tile south of the red dot (2S 1SE) so it can get coastal I'd think.
5) Whomper Room settler will go to the spot 1S 2SE of it. Easy one.
6) Payton Place settler to the black dot near the spices. A hill going out towards Gen_W and another lux would be helpful.

On the settling topic, in C3C, the more cities is better: the inflation is only to your unit support ;) Economically, it's viable to irrigate and farm settlers out of new towns at some point.

So here, they have got their shiny middle-age freebie BUT I have 2 good news in my pocket.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cageFP.jpg



http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage107.jpg

I probably will not bother with taking that hilly mess of a city, I'll just blockade from my end with legions and worker-built fortresses. I'll have a run at killing the enkidus that stand in my way and send over half of my stack straight into his alleyway to disrupt core improvements. I doubt I'll have much luck capturing anything but I can pillage him to the stone age. With a couple horsies, this will be a lot of fun.

And then, eventually, I'll have enough catapults to either run around him, control the middle island or just keep his troops at bay. Either solution is fine by me.

That's quite a stack B!! I think going right for the core and pillaging him to death makes a ton of sense. I'm starting to build as well and have 12 MW's here. I'm not sure it's enough to bust through but here's a couple pics.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7836/council1ea1.jpg

Two more settlers this turn so here are a few thoughts.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4275/council2rp7.jpg

Settling the frontline hill (defensive bonus!) would make your mounties invisible and leave them guessing as to what amount you actually have. This gets my first priority vote. Then it's a choice between river and more BG's ... your call.

Good point. Halas Hall goes to the river coast and Whomper Room will go to the front. There's also a river there too.

2 HUGE news on the exploration side: we have found ivory, possibly incense, and a 3-tile strait towards Niklas' core. Emphasis on how huge this news is. It means you can backdoor his core with mounties by rushing a couple of boats. Meanwhile I keep him busy. Should work.

Out of curiosity, could you post a screenshot?

Yeah, but then I'd have to kill you.

OK I have a number of galleys going right now. I'll finish feud this turn and build a little cash for some short rushing. I kind of thought that we might be able to find a coastal route and do some damage. :D

B--fyi after last turns combat I moved to average after being weak to Niklas.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4361/coucil3bf5.jpg

Wooooooo average!!!!!

OK now weak to Niklas and average to Gen_W. I will turn on research again after next turn when I'll short rush the MW's and galley again. I should be able to have one boat ready in the next couple turns.

Should I keep rushing the other 2 galleys or turn on research do you think? I presume you don't want feud, correct?

I won't want Feud and I'll be a while on Mono. You may as well take your time and short-rush a lot of stuff.

Ok, let's try to get a plan together, shall we?

Both sumeria and Aztecs are amassing troops near my Northern stronghold. That means they are both weakening their core and their South. A push South could be in order, but we'd need a couple of pikes from you.

After my GA I still am #1 in production and land, with #2 in GNP and pop. That means I should be able to hold the fort up there. Eventually, SoZ will pay off and I can really start swarming them with my cheap legions.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage115-1.jpg

SoZ ETA 7 or 6 turns, depending on growth tile assignation. This will kick ass.

The ressource island final count:
iron x2
horses x2
incense x1
wines x1
ivory x3
gems x1
furs x1

That's 2 more luxes each, with an extra fur.

... but we'll need settlers and we'll need units to block the coast off. I think you should get a settler on the coast and join the fun.

The faster we block the coast, the merrier we are. This is what this game is about anyways: holding a grudge against coastal blockades. Let's race for that.

I'll put 4 horsemen on boats while you have 4 mounties on yours. You go from the east, I go from the west. Hopefully we can raze a couple of towns up there.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage115-2.jpg

OK pikes to the south, settlers to the island and the backdoor with horses.

Forgive me if lurkers comments are not welcome, but would it not make more sense to put the "centre town" on the centre island on top of the ivory not the wines? One other town would need to be relocated but you'd get the extra food from the wines.

Yes, it would be sensible, but now we'll have to kill you.

Hehe...thanks Bartleby!! It's good to see we have you lurking. :D

Thats quite the goody isle- you should see if there another one if only to stop them getting it.

Already on it, I have a rather extensive knowledge of the seabed. We're launching an amphib assault on Niklas soon, trying to get him off guard, hopefully doing some damage to his core.

Been lurking on both sides, so can't really say anything. Except I'm learning as much from each side's planning discussions as I did from the War Academy (well. . . . slight hyperbole!) & find it absolutely fascinating. I'll be sorry when it comes to a close. . . .

kk

The big difference between this and the military academy is the amount of layers to the thought process that comes from playing a human rather than an AI. The AI may or may not decide to take advantage of the slightest military, UU, economic, growth or tech advantage it has to try and screw you sideways with it.

This means a lot of guess work, a bunch of leaps of faith and a very close look at the advisor screens. It also means having enough discipline to carry on big plans while retaining enough flexibility to react to whatever surprises come knocking at your door.

Much more interesting to play and fascinating to watch, imho, though you can't really practice extensively just from multiplayer, and both modes' gameplay doesn't necessarily apply to each other.

Nice to have you aboard Snarkhunter. Succession games are a lot of fun too and it's where I cut my teeth in this game. Playing with some of the best at CFC but I have to say playing against humans is quite a lot of fun. Not quite so easy to manipulate. Undefeated too so I have a rep to keep up. :D
B--here's a couple pictures with dotmaps and where my boats are.

Thoughts on new placements?
Settler in Urlacher Way. Green dot is a complete block off.
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7867/coastalys9.jpg

Settler due next at 51 Butkus Place.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1870/coastal2ld8.jpg

SoZ completed this turn (121). Fireworks and stuff.

Very nice B!! My boats should be ready to go across in 3 turn iirc. I'm thinking of sending another force towards General W's western outpost. I can reach it from the dyes forest.

Also at the end of my turn, a volcano erupted two tiles east of Kracken. That may have wiped out Niklas' units sitting on the mountain and volcano there!!

It could also have wiped mines out :o

Luckily I split the troops about ...

Suspense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B--I have 3 cats ready to plunk Gen W's vet galley coming from the east.
I was planning to plant the settler on the NE coast so I could get a galley over to the island.

I wasn't sure if a coordinated attack on Gen W while hitting their backside should be considered. I'd think that the backdoor is hit first and then Gen W's western city. Your call.

Crush, mkay?

Hmm, I'll try ;)

Whats going on in the main thread? 'demotivating'?

Remember the trebuchets that I burned? Well, they were sacrificial offerings to the God of volcanoes.

Did either of you receive a warning on the volcano?

Whomp got a "volcano has erupted" message, on the end of his turn, after hitting enter. I didn't notice anything before that, though he did mention something about a volcano in an email.

Alright. Just wanting to know so if I have to be the arbiter of a dispute, since there is no one else. They havent said anything to me about it, but who knows?

Howlin' Wolf sings our song. *clicky here* (http://youtube.com/watch?v=lyAa4Xp3sTg)

Wuddya think B? North or South or both or four way?

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/3082/backdoorhu3.jpg

I say North: less likely to have defenders. You really need to get one city, and then play safe / use roads. We want a distraction, hopefully a couple of cities, but we won't get huge gains there misfortunately.

Bear in mind that Niklas has zero fast units. I wonder how he can cover so much ground.

With rivers, maybe he can't. He'll have aturn of rushing before you attack, though.

Five more settlers coming this turn.

What do you think about massing an attack on General W? I'm not sure it's going to help much as it seems we're in a stalemate to the south. I could send all of my fast units north and mass against Niklas instead. I'm not sure what the best option is right now...

What happened with your galley?

Also feel free to drop by the sub form anytime :)

It's rolling around to Niklas' north and he's blocking his coast all the way. I'll post in the MTDG thread so you don't feel all alone. :D

Here's some eye candy

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Cage130-1.png

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Cage130-2.jpg

The flood plains 1S of Disjunction are empty bellied but I wouldn't send the MW's there: it's exactly 4 tiles away from the new town, redistribution, where his maces probably are chillin' out.

Running 0% lux now!! I'll have dyes to you next turn. I won't need the other yet.
I'm about 10 from invention and will run hot. I'm wondering if I should hit them a little with some units to get my unit support down. I'm average compared to both.

We'll have a good economical advantage with battle island. It'll also enable me to run tons of scientists within long. However, they have a big lead on Mil Trad. We'll need to build up a strong defence with muskets and fortresses on your sides' mountain ridge by then. I'll try to compute the time we've got but I'd say roughly 40 turns. That's 40 turns of massing settlers, workers, knights and muskets.

A joyful alternative to catching up the research would be to snatch the great library. With luxes and specialists, I doubt we'll need to play from behind for long but there will be an adaptation period and they are ahead, right now. They just got Monotheism, though, so we're closer to knights than they are.

With enough knights, we can build cavalries (knights -> cavs is the only upgrade I believe is worthwhile in this game, cats are good enough on their own: spend cash on infra rushing!).

I took quite a beating there on my defensive units along with the trebs and cats taken. I have a lot of offensive units that I can counter with and press the action. The only issue is I'd need some cover with some defensive units. What do you think?

He got 6 units on you with his offensive, and all were more expensive than yours. So far it's nearly cost-even, so if you think you can get a few units up on him with an offensive, I'd go ahead. This is probably his full force since he would have attacked harder if he had the manpower - it was down to 1 defence units at the end.

I have several knights and Acav's that could make the trip in a few clicks. More where they came from, too. Hang tight and keep a cover of at least his amount of (remaining, assuming a bad roll of rng luck) offensive units. If you can't get that cover, don't attack. He's got 2 elite promotions though, so I'd hope for the best there and cross my fingers you can take that knight out.

It's been awhile since we updated this page so here's the economy. Beorn and I are #1 and #2 in most of the important categories. I'm researching physics and it will be due in about 7 and he's starting on metallurgy and looks like he may be able to get it in 4 or 5.
I sense they have cavalry and are preparing to make a huge push into my territory. I'm weak to both of them and they're building a considerable stack of cannons, cats and trebs with a lot of defense units nearby. Caravels will start to come out which is pretty big since there's sea lanes that can be had for the potential to backdoor them.
Here's my economic picture...
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1263/economyvz2.jpg

Because we need to thoroughly intimidate the readers into putting their betting coins on our side, here's the latest Red side of the F11:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/Cage160.jpg

Note that this GNP omits the presence of dozens of scientists, and dozens more to come (no bluff there). Niklas' ICP core and General's tundra galore are no match for the fully developed resource island. They still have more total points than we do, but we are gaining about 3/turn on them, getting even next turn IIRC. Also note that my population growth has slowed down because my farmlands have been developed to optimal beakering.

As you can deduce, they'll be hard pressed coming back on top of us now by means other than military. We'll brace hard for a cav invasion and get our own cavs shortly enough. They shall not succeed.

It appears we have a cavalry attack. They hit my pikes and spears on the dyes so my guess is they've tried to disconnect it. It should be interesting to see if they've moved their defensive units into position as well. If they lose the stack of arty it could be a reversal of fortunes on that front.

Got you covered, I'll retaliate and screenshot the field a lot - wait you'll be gone, so I'll prep a top-secret report and post it once his cavs are done.

It appears that they've lost double the shields 1180 to 590 (if you count AC's which are equal to 40s) so it looked like a very nice round B. If you didn't have the bad RNG of MDI losses versus MDI's it could've been a complete rout and had a chance at all that arty. What are your thoughts?
Wins

4/4 Knight v 5/5 Cavalry + cannon(hit): 1/4 Knight 80
4/4 Knight v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 Knight 140
5/5 AnCav v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): AnCav 2/5 200
4/4 MDI v 4/5 musket + cannon(hit): 3/4 MDI 260
4/4 Knight v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 2/4 Knight 340
4/4 Knight v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 2/4 Knight 420
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 2/4 Mountie 500
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 4/5 Mountie 580
4/4 MDI v 3/4 musket + cata(hit): 3/4 MDI 640
4/4 Mountie v 3/4 Cav + cata(hit): 1/4 Mountie 720
4/4 MDI v 4/4 Enkidu: 3/4 MDI 730
4/4 MDI v 2/4 musket: 3/4 MDI 790
4/4 MDI v 2/4 musket: 4/4 MDI 850
4/4 MDI v 2/4 musket: 4/5 MDI 910
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 MDI: 4/5 Mountie 950
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 MDI: 1/4 Mountie 990
4/4 Mountie v 4/5 MDI: 3/4 Mountie 1030
4/4 Mountie v 4/5 MDI: 4/4 Mountie 1070
4/4 Mountie v 4/5 MDI: 4/4 Mountie 1100
5/5 Sword v 2/4 Cav: 5/5 Sword 1180
Retreats
5/5 AnCav v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 AnCav retreat, musket 3/4
4/4 Knight v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 knight retreat, musket 3/4
4/4 Knight v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 knight retreat, musket 4/4
4/4 Knight v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 knight retreat, musket 2/4
4/4 Mountie v 3/4 musket + treb(hit): 1/4 Mountie retreat, 2/4 musket
Losses
5/5 AnCav v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): musket 3/4 40
5/5 AnCav v 4/4 musket + cannon(miss): musket 2/4 80
4/4 Knight v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): musket 4/5 150
4/4 MDI v 4/4 musket + cannon(hit): 1/4 musket 190
4/4 Knight v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 1/4 Cav 260
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 Cav + treb(hit): 3/4 Cav 290
4/4 MDI v 3/4 musket + cata(hit): 2/4 musket 330
4/4 Mountie v 4/4 Cav + cata(hit): 1/4 Cav 360
4/4 MDI v 5/5 MDI + cata(hit): 4/5 MDI 400
4/4 MDI v 2/4 musket: 1/4 musket 440
4/4 MDI v 4/4 MDI: 4/5 MDI 480
4/4 MDI v 4/4 MDI: 1/4 MDI 520
4/4 MDI v 4/4 MDI: 1/4 MDI 560
4/4 Mountie v 2/4 Cav: 1/4 Cav 590

I think I should've forced as many retreats as possible on both sides, just to clear trash out and get to the artillery - hopefully. Still would've been doubtful but it could've happened.

Otherwise it'll throw them off their feet and buy us time to make more MDI/knights until we can upgrade to cavs. Been a good show :)

B that looked like another mass bludgeoning of their units. 670 shields they lost to our 360 shields and you got an MGL out of it to boot!!!

Almost captured their arty it looks like. I see a 2/5 EW left?


Their losses
4/4 MDI vs 4/4 musket: 3/5 MDI 60
4/4 MDI vs 1/4 musket: 4/4 MDI 120
4/4 Knight vs 1/5 cav: 4/4 knight 200
4/4 MW vs 4/4 EW (Cannon hit): 3/4 MW 210
4/4 MW vs 4/4 EW (Cannon hit): 3/4 MW 220
5/5 MW vs 2/4 Musket (Cannon hit): 3/5 MW 280
5/5 MW vs 2/5 Cav (Cannon miss): 4/5 MW 360
4/4 Knight vs 2/4 Cav (Treb miss): 2/4 Knight 440
4/4 Knight vs 3/4 EW (Treb hit): 1/4 Knight 450
4/4 Musket (oops) vs 2/4 EW (Treb miss): 2/4 Musket 460
2/4 MDI vs 2/4 EW (Treb miss): 2/84 MDI (he's really badass when healed) 470
2/4 MDI vs 1/4 Musket (Treb hit): 1/4 MDI 530
2/5 Zam vs 1/4 Musket (Treb miss): 2/5* Zam 590
3/8 Momma Bear vs 1/4 Cav (Treb miss): 4/9 Momma bear (2 knights in) 670

Our losses
4/4 MDI vs 3/4 Cav: 3/5 Cav 40
4/4 MDI vs 3/5 Cav: 1/5 Cav 80
4/4 MDI vs 1/4 musket: 1/4 musket 120
4/4 MDI vs 1/5 Cav: 1/5 Cav 160
4/4 MW vs 5/5 Cav (Cannon hit): Cav 2/5 190
4/4 MW vs 3/4 Musket (Cannon hit): 2/4 musket 220
4/4 MW vs 4/4 EW (Cannon hit): 2/5 EW 250
3/5 MDI vs 3/4 EW (Cannon hit): 2/4 EW (maybe 1/4, not sure) 290
4/4 MW vs 2/4 Cav (Treb hit): 2/5 Cav 320
2/4 MDI vs 1/4 Musket (Treb miss): 1/4 Musket 360

4/4 MW vs 4/4 EW (Cannon hit): 3/4 EW, MW retreat

At the end it was down to 1/4 cavs. We did good but they gained a flat 230-0 on their turn and Niklas has a nasty musket stack incoming. We'll lose all of the units sitting on the offensive square, most likely, which is about another 300 shields. Fortunately, Momma bear is on the lookout :)

They'll have a good 10 healthy cavs this turn also, so they will start tipping the scales their way. I tried hard to raze dyesville but it just didn't happen. I was relieved to get a MGL in the end - the 2/4 MDI attacks had reasonable odds but still, I felt half desperate even attempting that.

You just donated a town to me so I can heal my guys :thanx: That means 10 knights in 2 turns. A little late, but will be useful yet. I'll disband an ancient cav or 2 in it for a 1st turn barrack.

I changed your research path to Magnetism after Physics: I probably will get to ToG 1 turn sooner than you would since Coper's is coming in hot.

I'd just like to encourage you guys to keep posting your thoughts. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of us lurkers who love reading them but can't really post any comments since we're reading both spoiler threads. Exciting action!

I'd just like to encourage you guys to keep posting your thoughts. I'm sure there's a whole bunch of us lurkers who love reading them but can't really post any comments since we're reading both spoiler threads. Exciting action!


Ditto. Will there ever be a post-mortem where everybody gets to see what everyone else was thinking? I've got questions, can't really ask either side without tipping someone's hand. . . .

kk

When the game's over both spoilers will be wide open for questions and answers. We'll try to keep this more up to date since things are happening hot and heavy now.

We're just not as opinionated and talkative as the other side I guess. We're also only 2 playing and happy about it this way, if I may make a blunt rehearsal of my thoughts about their spoiler thread.

Either way, most of what could(should?) be in here happens in turnover emails; I might (don't take my word for cash right there but I just might) take the time to post that and comment on it when it's over.

Now, if I may tease the crowd with some *actual* spoiler action, the skirmish was meant to be ugly for us and it will be yet, but it's not THAT bad all in all, and should we survive the next 5-6 turns without losing more than a dyes spot and a bit of momentum, the cards will be even when it is our turn to draw. Their plan had a big pothole in the post-MilTrad recovery and we're all set to exploit it. More will come, probably directly in the turn tracker thread.

Scout reports they have a mere 4 units defending their artillery stack down there, but it's off-road and on a forest fortress (+150% defense means 2x 7.5D cavalries and 2x 5D MDI's).

My useable troops consist of a 5/5 Acav + 4/4 knight, yours are like 2 4/4 mounties and then the rest is injured.

If our troops were in shape I'd be all over it but I doubt we can push it, pillage the tile and steal the artillery stack with under 10 units. Either they are trying to bait us out or they are really desperate, but we have nothing with which to take the dare.

I say we pull a Niklas and do nothing. Your thoughts?

I'd agree. The longer we hold them off the better. 0nce we get cavs the playing field is even again.

Alright, let's pull the sheet our way and see whether they make a move. Them not using the musket/cannon stack certainly hurt their momentum tremendously. Now it's only a matter of time ;)

Frontline status: roaded for them, all towns are within cav range and need troops. 3 cavs + 2MDI in the stack (one more than what I glimpsed hastily earlier), as well as 450 cannons, 762 trebs and 48 catapults.

Might be best to pull back to the hill city Monsters of the Midway. I think I'll wait to play this tomorrow.

Yeah, everything back on hill sounds best to me as well - especially since we're hurting for 1-2 muskets each.

Niklas was inactive, as he should. We're almost there.

Lots of MM here in the shift to optimize 70s towards 80; I'll be broke next turn but after that we can talk business again. Do you think you can have a decent punch packed on cue or should I hold my horses still for a turn or 2?

MT this turn, Coper next one.

Oh and if you can sail up and snipe this little bugger, we'd all feel better back home.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=184438&d=1217537490

My theory still holds, the RNG favors the reckless :D
Is there any other way to play? Oh wait, theirs...

Sorry, I had to. But this isn't proper turn tracker talk at this time.

Heh...
I'm inclined to have a fully healed army to arrange an attack and leader fish in the process. I'm setting up for 80 s finishes as well. I'm going to short rush a MI in the capital so it will finish just in time since I slowed it to 20s twice. I will probably have 2 or 3 cavs finishing that next turn.

Starting on Theory of gravity this turn and physics on the way unless you think we should wait so it cost them more...I figure you can resesearch mag faster than I after Cops comes in.

8, 9, 10, 16, 20, 27 are top dogs, 12, 14 second picks (12 perfect for muskets). I have a hopeless 18 shielder that'll be my ToE and/or Hoover prebuilder. Lower than that, they're probably still on infra/growth tasks for a bit.

Bring physics, I'd rather have a chance of discouting them physics than making sure we discount them banking. We have 3 techs to go in MA, you do 1 I do 2? This'll let your wallet breathe a bit for upgrades. Mag in 8 and I'll catch up in time to start the IA in 9, with you getting an IBT swap to Med or w/e.

Next turn the army will be healed but I think we'll be short on troops, especially you, to really start the home delivery business. Fish on!

B--I'm scared to death that if Da Bears flips it would be a big problem. It might be worthwhile holding your units outside the city.

OK switched to Mag and sent physics.

Here's the economy. Looking good and I'm now average to the Gen W's Sumerians. Look out when those cavs come in. :D Still weak to Niklas' Aztecs.

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/4962/economysa3.jpg

I'm not sure what they're planning with all these workers. They've already abandoned the idea of planting on the dyes. I'm inclined to bring a couple units around his rear with those caravels. What do you think? I can also send out some obsolete units from our western shores and back door that side as well. Worst case it forces units to their rear just as we're bringing the cavalry forward.

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/5043/unitste8.jpg

Here's what's on their fort.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3267/units2gg1.jpg

Yeah they have a lot of mountains we can exploit, and it would make a nice diversion anywho. Muskets?

Ok, time for some longer term planning. Will you be on msn some time today or tomorrow?

I just got home and will turn on MSN. Give me a jingle.

Dang it. I move workers to the road in front of Monsters but I thought 3 were available but it was only 2. Eeesh..

Anyhow the army, a couple of muskets, cannon and 2 buchets are with them.

Hopefully they'll stay invisible for a turn or 2...

Well they didn't attack so either I can put more muskets on the tile and start roading or if he has brought more cavalries forward I may have to pull back. I also have a sword and 2 MW's in a caravel hitting his borders and another on their backside with a spear and MW. .

They are between 1 and 2.5 techs behind us atm. We will have a better and better estimate when we hit banking, ToG and Mag.

Here's my latest data, with new high spikes coming up shortly as we ram into the new era's rails and pollutants.

We're up 14 points on them and growing. Fast.

Be aware that Niklas has a couple caravels headed our way. I also moved the settler out of Monsters of Midway since it seems to make more sense roading the dyes instead of trying to protect it will units. 3 turns till mag and Heroic Epic comes in this turn.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/8357/deathpw9.jpg

I'll ride my elites back home then.

Roading it will be hazardous this turn but after that it forces them to sacrifice a cav every time they want to pillage it - might be good or might not be, since it makes you pull your boys out on the field again and again to re-road, I guess we'll see.

Inland stack of anti-landing friends:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage172.jpg

Grats on passing me for #1 pop and MFG :hatsoff:

General_W has 5 caravel in the pond, I don't trust that. I sent 3 ACs to cover the mountain range in the sea's western end, they have that much usefulness in them still. I also brought legions back from my core defence garrison, the cavalry roll is now big enough to defend against drops.

Niklas has started Sistine Chapel - meaning he either will finish it next turn OR he's using 2 pre-builds and has ran out of shield-buffers. Building Sistine is suicidal at best and I doubt we'd face anything of the sort from him.

Possible builds available:
Sun Tzu: not likely, he has cheap barracks already
Leo's: possible, but since we're past the knight -> cavalry upgrade stage, I wonder if he'd go to the length of massing cannons (after losing 15) and upgrading them to artillery
Newton's: possible, but only 400 shields rather than 600
ToE: possible, but far away (especially for them), and he's using his capital so I doubt that he would consider mobilizing a super shielded 3-turn cavalry maker (assuming his is as good as ours).
Hoover: Not quite yet
US: useless
Bach: unlikely, he has smallish cities except the capital, so Mausoleum sounds more likely
Shakespeare: he would make Mausoleum/temple/cathedral instead, and there's no way they'd research up there
Magellan: I wouldn't bet on them researching Navigation but it would be possible
Smith: Since he's the small one and Gen_W the big one, he could very well gear up for a fueled research economy towards Gen_W and use massive wealth, banks and Smith to boost cashflow. That's what I would lean towards.

So, in order of likelihood from my perspective and ill-willed opinion:
Smith, Newton, ToE, Hoover, Magellan.

I hope he goes Magellan :p

Thanks B. It appears losing Great Lib for Pyramids may have been a blessing in disguise!

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of cathedrals with a war government. I'm not sure I understand Smith's since it would be so many cities building infrastructure. I'm not sure any of us can afford that many cities building instead of making units. Magellan's extra movement could be quite useful in this game considering we're at a stalement on land but again what a waste. Leo's makes the most sense imo. I plan to start a pre build for Hoovers in a few turns. It will be tough losing a 10+ shield city.

Also, be very careful in Da Bears with flipping. What's the flip probability? We can't lose any of your units.

Deal will be renewed next IBT, no disorders in the forecast.

Yeah we're losing a city but we have confirmation that they are losing some as well, so it's all good, and we're on top of the food chain. With all your scattered shields, you can afford one city - your production wealth is spread around a lot. You won't see much of a difference - especially once w ehit railroads before they do (unless they roll that for free :cringe: )

Flip probability is 0 due to garrison, IIRC. I keep it populated well ;) I don't know how are required to make 100% sure they don't flip, but both are quite safely beyond the threshold that way. Those are the only riskies: I'll rush a lib in Seal Clubber.

I've computed a few tech paths but none are to my liking thus far. We still have a couple of turns to get something productive; I've been able to crunch our entry into modern times from 247 to 239 but that gives us a number of idle turns and it also makes us research nationalism/espionage (the latter of which could be just idle turns, really). I think i can do better yet.

Also, you do about 270 bpt while many techs cost 2800, so if you can crank that up to 280 we'd optimize several techs' research times a lot. I do around 350, so it's hard to get sharp tech times (costs vary from 2000 to 3600 by leaps of 400), but I can ease it up on cheap techs and force myself into a deficit for expensive ones. This way we probably can save a bunch of turns in the end.

I'll be back to you on this later in the week.

Sumeria has reached industrial ages. They would be 1 tech behind us, considering we have 2x ½ tech on them, but then again he gets a free industrial tech. My time for Steam has not moved a bit, if your time for med has lowered then that's what he's got. Otherwise we'll have to assume Nationalism.

Other news: Gen_W decided to protect his assets and hide a few units behind the lines. I see a vMk in his front town so I'll guess they're just sitting in there, but one can't be 100% sure. Worsst case scenario, he's plotting more intense shenanigans for 3 cavalries, and we can take that.

It was tempting to go into an all-out assault on that stack, but I'll wait and tear him down a little more. If anything, this should make them strengthen their frontline to cover for that.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage179.jpg

3 West ! :ninja:

Hmm...should be interesting whether it's simply to protect some assets. I'm not sure why he's keeping units in the open in that fort anyhow. I will play this tomorrow since I've got a ton going on the rest of today and tonight but will be wide open tomorrow.

:salute: As the grand idiot of them all AK would say...NUTS! It's what idiots do. :crazyeye:

NUTS!

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage180-2.jpg

I don't know what spot to land on for you, he has a cav on the other hill. The 3rd hill is far from the front and the other spots are closer, but the N most one is furthest from possible defensive retaliation.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/cage180-1.jpg

Remember that Niklas' cavs are a little more inland and might have range to come haunt us, if he spots us, so invisibility is prime. Whatever landing spot you pick, he probably has range to come in, so it's up to you to go more or less agressive. I'll try to clear you a way with my cavs so you're all on roaded grounds when you go.

Also, I revised my tech time and I think they could've gotten Steam after all. Bad on the big picture, good for operation Sea Wolf since they can't draft. Let's hope we can get 3-4 valuable towns and work from there.

How many troops do you have landed there?

8 cavs each, more incoming, but I doubt there will be a need and/or a possibility for a second wave, at all. With Niklas unable to respond (he plays first, and unless Whomp PM'd them something he doesn't know where we are) and General's whole army sitting far away on the frontline, it should sum up for a good amount of damage.

Marsden has better start counting his Quatloos :)

Landed 8 cavs on "Question Mark Hill" in between Fertile Port and Sumer Cove. Two Muskets, cav and MW can either land on "Question Mark Hill" or on top of their horse/lux/cow resource to his west next turn.

NUTS!

No action from Niklas!! Let's see how General_W responds. It will be interesting to see if he abandons or counters. Question is whether we should send units towards him on the other side while he's scrambling to send his units the other direction.

Also do you think getting replaceable parts and using TOE towards combustion and mass production? I'm not sure getting Hoovers is absolutely critical here since it would require building factories which will take an awful long time while we're trying to build units. Whereas, controlling the air and sea might be even better. Researching through to Electronics after factories have been built might make more sense.

Interesting day ahead!!

No action from Niklas indeed!!

I think the Hoover Dam slingshot is a classic and it didn't get such status out of a whim. Factories mean 2x the production capacity, 2x the troops, at the cost of a few turns of infra. This game will not be won by 5 artillery and 10 infantry units, so the base cost will be worth it. I'll take the job of building plants by hand, you can prebuild for Hoover. My pre-build for ToE has already started and is well underway.

OK I'll continue with my prebuild on Hoovers. I'll have to be judicious building factories to double the output of those cities. Knocking out multiple 240s builds at the same time could be tough but 1 turn cavs/2 turn infantry/tanks/bombers is pretty nice.

Yes, gradually is best, so you don't lose everything at once.

I'm running a table of the tech tree and costs and trying to figure the fastest way around it... My ToE prebuild hits at turn 201 (would be possible at 199 but detrimental to cities around), so far I have you getting Sci Method on 200, which is perfect. However, they can beat us to it if they have Steam already.

Be back later with pictures even I will be able to follow around.

Turn 241 is the best I could do for modern. It is not the best for RP or Flight but it gives the best Motor transportation and Scientific Method times. It might need to be revised to get us to ToE in a rush should they wish to grab it under our nose.

So here's plan A:

Notice that you finish Nationalism at 221 and I get Combustion on 225: that's a 4 turn breather for you.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/IndusTech.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/IndusTechW.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u204/CFC_Beorn/IndusTechB.jpg

Plan B will occur if they beat us to Electricity. At that point, we can't afford to miss Scientific method for any consideration. I'll take 4 turns to go into starvation mode, scientist everything, and you'll fund me so I don't implode. After that, we can breathe. I hope plan B does not occur.

I'll monitor their tech progress closely until then.

Awesome. I'm so glad that I'm partnered with a math genius! :D

Whomp - I know you're playing two civs right now, but with all the action, an update/pics/plans would be great for us spectators. :D :worship:

Will do next turn. Sorry for not updating this much but I didn't think anyone was reading ours.

Will do next turn. Sorry for not updating this much but I didn't think anyone was reading ours.

On the contrary, we lurkers are riveted. . . to both fora :D

kk

I've been following the Council spoiler thread closely. Back when this thread had some activity, I was following it closely, too ;)

As many of you know we were beat on the same turn to ToE. Beorn and I felt that it would be a gamebreaker and as you can see that's been the case. Desperate times call for desperate measures. We now have replaceable parts and corporation. We'll need a few turns to upgrade units before we start in on refining and steel. We had a setback last turn when they disconnected Beorn's gems and 4 major cities went into disorder.

The plan will be to slowly pull back and draw them into Beorn meanwhile starting to put pressure on General W on the other end.

Since I'm on my own feel free to contribute any thoughts without being spoilerish. I'm sure it's been useful to them having players like Chamnix helping out.

Here's a couple pictures of the fronts...
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3865/beorndi9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
When I looked Der Wall had a cavalry protecting the city and the other barricade was lightly defended. Obviously they can get to this spot in a jiffy so hopefully they either commit to Beorn which I think they will or they'll try to simply hold us off by using rails.
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/3613/beorn2gi8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

OK here's the situation on both fronts. Let's see if you see what I see assuming anyone's lurking.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1271/1generalwrq8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6301/2generalwlu9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:devil:

Anyhow, here's the plan.
It's 860 AD and Beorn's military academy city Squirrely has 59 shields in the box and is doing 30 spt.

Next turn (870) he'll have 89 shields and we'll short rush with factory for 240 shields.
In 880, we'll have 270 shields and we'll rush an army.

In 890 we'll have an infantry army and if you see what I see we'll try and counter with our infantry and cav army. It might catch them off guard if they're trying to siege Beorn's cities.

Let's hope we can hold them off. There's 2 infantry in Buffone and 5 coming next turn.

Whomp, thanks for the updates. :hatsoff:

The big question is whether to counter on General W with armies and land enough infantry behind their lines (assuming they don't cover) or simply land the armies on the worker while I keep rushing armies. I wonder if they realize I have a outpost viewing the situation.

I'll have a little time to catch my breath this week, Mr Whomper, so if you want to send me the save and have a chat about it I'll definitely take the time for that.

Sounds great B. I've been slowly backing away until the army is finished which is this turn. Let's hope we can hold them off. My thoughts are this is the time to hit them head first with our cavs to weaken their stacks which are considerable. The infantry/combo they have is making for a rough time but we have all our factories in and are 2 and 3 turn everything. I'm inlcined to keep rushing the armies for the time being rather than turn on research.

Well if they bust through this turn this game is over. Let's hope they decide to consolidate after I concentrated fire on Niklas. If they send enough cavs there's no way I can stop them. Cross your fingers.

It appears these guys may have made a crucial error. Though we haven't seen General W's battle log it appears he gave us a MGL on defense. They've whittled Beorn down to minimal forces. The thing is General W has left his arty stack lightly defended. I plan to take that stack somehow and then either use it against Niklas or disband them and all the workers underneath. I've emailed Beorn since I really need help strategizing this turn since this could be a big break in what looked like a hopeless situation. Maybe losing the ToE on the same turn could turn back in our favor.

I have two galleons in Perf's Avatar and think I'll move Beorn's arty to the island and bombard from there. The big question is whether to build a cav army or infantry army. The cav army would only be 9hps so a big decision. The Iroquois could easily finish but I'd like to cut off the stack that's sitting in front of Perf's Avatar since it wouldn't be able to use any roads and would be subject to incessant bombardment.


General W's arty stack.
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/8104/battlefrontzy4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Niklas' arty stack (about 15ish).
http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/9664/battlefront2qt5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

For anyone who's still watching this thread I've decided to try and turn the tables a bit. I sent a infantry army and 2 cavs with more to follow this turn to Der Wall which is the border city on General W's front. I don't think they realize that I got a MGL on defense last turn so hopefully this will come as a total surprise. Niklas goes first so hopefully he won't be able to tell and General W might have to scramble since I think I've destroyed most of his arty and cut off roads for his infantry to retreat. Hopefully I can survive their onslaught this turn but even though we're even militarily they still have the advantage.

For anyone who's still watching this thread. . . .

You kiddin'? I'm absolutely riveted! This is easily the climax of the match thus far--I don't wanna miss a single move! :wow:

It's this point in the future that would be a really interesting post-mortem by both teams, once it is all over. . . .

kk

For anyone who's still watching this thread I've decided to try and turn the tables a bit. I sent a infantry army and 2 cavs with more to follow this turn to Der Wall which is the border city on General W's front. I don't think they realize that I got a MGL on defense last turn so hopefully this will come as a total surprise. Niklas goes first so hopefully he won't be able to tell and General W might have to scramble since I think I've destroyed most of his arty and cut off roads for his infantry to retreat. Hopefully I can survive their onslaught this turn but even though we're even militarily they still have the advantage.
So you did destroy the arty? Pics? We are all still following. Im sure if you solicit opinions other people will pop up.

Yep, still sitting in the lurker's seat. :scan: Keep up with the updates please. :please:

Aye, we'll still here. :)

OK good to see we have some lurkers.

So you did destroy the arty? Pics? We are all still following. Im sure if you solicit opinions other people will pop up.
Yep wiped out about 12 or so arty pieces and disbanded 17 workers. I used two of the captured pieces to destroy incoming roads to the Perf's Avatar front but the rest are gonzo.

I'll post pictures next turn and anyone is welcome to chime in.

One thing you'll notice about the other team is they've been swapping workers with each other to keep costs down. Beorn and I haven't needed to do that except for a few instances since our unit support cost has been kept to a minimum.

The more I think about the infantry army the more I wonder if it was the right call. If I had probed Der Wall with a cav first I would've noticed that they didn't have any cover in Gen. W's city Der Wall and could've taken it down with a cav army. Problem with cav army is it easier to wipe out and taking the city would be all that was accmplished.

Another question is whether I should continue to rush armies or go full tilt on research again.

I am lurking and am happy to see you guys fighting back :goodjob:

I won't comment though as I have been lurking both sides.

I am lurking and am happy to see you guys fighting back :goodjob:

I won't comment though as I have been lurking both sides.

Same here. I'd love to interject, but even the slightest comment to either side could inadvertently tip something--I don't want to risk it!

kk

Add another entry to the lurker's list.

I will say, though, that the choice between army-rushing and full-bore research is a risky one. Hold the front without rushing armies and go full-bore research, and you'll have a decisive advantage once tanks and bombers come in -- but you risk being overrun.

Slow down the research pace, rush armies every turn, and you shouldn't have a problem blunting the enemy advance -- but you risk being in the middle of researching Combustion when the first bombers start flying overhead.

I'm on the edge of my seat, watching this match! :)

Thanks for continuing to lurk.
OK here's the status at this point. I'm waiting on a little confirmation or idea sharing with Beorn if he's around today since you guys can't talk to me. :p

Anyhow, here's my thoughts...
On this front I want to wipe out the barricades and roads that connect Kraken and Fabrication. Both Gen. W and Niklas have given me some respite by not forcing the action at Perf's Avatar. I have a feeling they fear the damage I can do with the army on the other front and no arty to counter with.

I have 12 arty ready to do the job and if it takes less the two galleons will transport the arty back from Donut Nugget Island back to the Donut (really it's more like a Cruller) continent.
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7365/cagematchnorthzx6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

My plan here is to move the army back one space now that I've given them something to think about and will move two workers 2 SE of Da Bears so I can rail up and attack either barcicade next turn. Beorn has 9 cavs to work with and will have some arty (depending on road damage) to soften their positions. They don't have arty to work my position down since Gen W lost his and Niklas will be cut off from moving that direction. Cavs is their best defense against this potential counteroffensive.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9284/cagematchsouthit1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Oops...I'm hoping I didn't show them that explorers can cut rails behind lines. I would hate to road mountains leading up to the southern front.

Keep up posting updates. Just recently found this one out, very interesting situation developed here.

OK steel and refining are finished this turn. Beorn will research combustion and hopefully the oil is on the island so they don't have access. Doubtful but we'll see...
I thought about researching espionage but honestly I don't know if stealing is an option in a locked alliance all war game.

Things still look pretty dim but hopefully we can hold out for a little longer.

Things still look pretty dim but hopefully we can hold out for a little longer.
Hang in there bunkie:D

OK we have 3 oil spots (2 outside cultural borders) in Iroquois lands on the tundra and none in Roman lands. They have some inland that I can see on desert but none on the coast that I could see. I'll look again because it may be under a city.

Two of ours can be pillaged from the sea so a new city will planted on one so that we have 2 secure sources.

Combustion is started and the Romans will help fund the research. It should be due in 8.
I checked to see whether steals are possible through the embassy and it appears getting espionage would be a waste when there's locked alliances so no steals. Kind of a bummer. Bombers will be what changes the stalemate we're experiencing right now.

Hey B. Good to have you back!


Here's the current status. We have a statemate on both fronts and it appears we have a race towards tanks and bombers. I turned off your research temporarily so we could rush a army and accelerate research towards combustion. It might be time to turn on research again and start a prebuild towards Hoovers. I am average to them but you are weak to them so it might be worthwhile for you to get it.

They're not threatening your borders but have massed at my borders. They have a lot of units in the area and honestly I'm not sure what they're waiting for. I think they're afraid to lose lots of arty on the attack.

I had a couple of your frigate heading south to take care of some of the pirate ships they have that are bothering my coast. Most of my frigate production has gone to destroyer prebuilds so I don't think I'll have many more frigates built.

I've been trying to protect the gems which it appears for the first time was successful against Niklas' bombardment. I was building a fortress on the mountain as well. You may need to transport back and forth some healthy infantry in place of the injured ones on the mountain. I think it can hold with enough support which eventually we'll need on the island as we approach marines.

12 turns?? Someone must have picked up my pace :lol: ;):p

So I had a first look, it doesn't like outright grim, so the situation has improved, but I'm not sure what's to be our priority orders either.

Research looks feasible, but I got hit very very hard. If we are average/weak, then it's a bad sign. I'd propose no research for me until we can branch out for tanks/planes, with whoever is faster going planes.

They have kept playing hard to get all game, so it's not surprising that they're holding back now - I guess this will only change once bombers have started decimating us.

At this point it's an air race, Hoover would be of doubtful cost-efficiency.

I'll try to dig up an old Fighter interception data thread, see what we can do.

So, what should we put on the menu? Gems, infantries, fighters?

You know building coal plants is not very expensive. They're 160s and most of your cities can get that done between 3-5. The pollution is a nuisance that can bust a build sequence however the way I see it that only is impactful on the last turn of a build. The other times something can be rushed to fill in the gap.

I think the priority is most definitely bombers, flaks and I'm not sure about fighters. I'll have combustion in 5 with a 80gpt deficit so I may need 30-40g at the end of the cycle.
I would hide the army that's being built since there's no need to show them everything we've got on a counterattack. Right now, they can only reach my one city with arty attacks. The problem with their attacks is it's a city on a hill with walls and rax. Our return fire is on a fortress.

The gems can be protected but it might take 4 infantry to do it. It also works against them since we'll see any counterattack they try to pose since Niklas would never move his foot soldiers without arty support.

Sounds good, I'll shoot for shield optimization, let you work on flight and try to match you on mass production. 4 infantries for the mountain.

B: Miss
B: 3/4 Infantry => 1/4
B: Miss
B: 3/4 Infantry => 2/4
B: Miss
B: 3/4 Infantry => 2/4
B: 2/4 Infantry => 1/4
B: 2/4 Infantry => 1/4
B: Miss
B: 3/4 Legion => 1/4
B: 3/4 Cavalry => 1/4
B: 4/4 Archer => 2/4
B: 3/4 Horse => 2/4
B: 3/4 Archer => 1/4
B: 3/4 Archer => 1/4
B: 2/4 Horse => 1/4
B: 2/4 Archer => 1/4
B: Miss
B: Road destroyed

Tabarnack. Free crater too :cringe: They'll pay!

The happy hit wasn't much: only 2 cities rioted, one of which has no production anyways.

More MM, more picky tweaks.

Niklas' Frigates are coming in 4-strong towards my western bay, I'm regrouping ships out of his sight to counter.

CA2 says 1 cavalry outstanding for Gen W on the eastern front, 4 frigates to the west. IIRC I get an army this turn so i could safely remove the cavalry.

Gems still quite embattled but I got myself a barrack to heal troops.

You got your tech last turn, what did you continue on? flight?

I started on flight and it can be finished anywhere from 8 to 11 turns if you gift cash. General W has combustion but Niklas does not.

I would start on mass production this turn. If you can move some workers to the island you can probably finish the fort and eventually you should be able to turn down lux to 10%.

Royalties in the mail for flight research, Mass Prod in 12 here while breaking even. West frigates still have me retreating, more infantries, more workers to the island in hopes i can get a fortress in time for my flaks and their bombers.

OK research at 100% for about 6 turns and flight should be in within about 8.
Just a little heads up on the demographic screen.
I'm average to both militarily. For some reason, Niklas still doesn't have combustion.
#1 in population, mfg goods and productivity
#2 in GNP and land.
#3 in annual income

OK a little update...
The game has become a bit of a statemate and should change considerably over the next 20-30.
Beorn and I both have military academies and are knocking out armies. My next army is coming in the next 6 turns. I'm now average to General W and strong to Niklas militarily. I'll need some cash to get flight in the next 5 turns and we both have cities that will prebuilid them over the next few turns. We have most of our productive cities with coal plants and are knocking out 33-70spt.

Tank armies should be coming soon but we need to discuss where they're least expecting us. :D

Back, and sick as a dog.

A few things I noticed when I opened it up:

They have furs and wines on their east coast (pillage friendly)
They keep bombing useless units on the island to soften them pre-bombers
I only have 120g but can output 100gpt to lump it as we go
His frigates on the west have been inactive and invisible, I suspect a retreat
You probably won't need all of the 200g since they'll get it 2 turns early and we save a turn etc.

Tentative order of business for today:

Keep pumping (empty) armies,
Keep the island stocked,
Keep softening their artillery stacks before bombers,
Keep building war boats on the west coast and transports for battle island.
Send 121g

Anything else?

Nope I think you've got it. I would start building forts on all the island luxs if you haven't started already. My luxs and resources are all forted so we should anticipate those being their first order of business.

They busted my gem fortress but I'll have one done this turn again, then I'll start on ivories - good call.

Gold in the mail, and I'm now average to Niklas (weak to you and GenW).

If you need to get more forces back to MotM, I can take back AnthroPC and the surroundings. I can't take the very front town yet, I think, but I can definitely take the one behind.

Looking good B. Flight comes in next turn and I have 5 cities that will have bombers ready the turn afterwards. I was able to turn research to zero so it appears they have flight this turn so brace yourself. I turned lux up a notch just in case. I sent back 226g that I didn't need so you can crank up your research a notch.

I'm #1 in population, GNP, Manufacturing and Productivity right now. Strong to Niklas and average to Gen_W. The power graph is showing we're gaining a lot of momentum and is the best we've seen in 500 years. Army due in 3 as of this turn. I'm considering leaving it empty until we get tanks since they're not attacking.

I think I should start researching the bottom half towards atomic. That way once we finish mass prod. and tanks we'll be able to move to the next age. What do you think?