GOTM 71 Pre-Game Discussion

Well, I'm out of town for 2 days, so I better put a pre-game discussion thread up for GOTM71 ... a little bit early! :eek: We've never played the Mongols straight from the box for PTW because the movement abilities of the Keshik couldn't be recreated in Vanilla Civ (back when Vanilla and PTW were run as one competition.) There was a very enjoyable Mongols game back in GOTM25, but which used special unique units that required additional installs. Here is your chance to play Mongols in the PTW GOTM as provided straight from the game. That's fairly special, but this is our quarterly big game, so the map is a Large, Deity Pangaea with 13 AI civs - extra special :drool: . And you'll have an additional week to enjoy this bloodba ... er, GOTM. :) Have fun!

Civilization: Mongols
Rivals: 13
Barbarians: Raging
Difficulty: Deity
Land Form: Pangaea, 60% ocean, Large map.
Geology: 3 billion years old, Wet, Temperate
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm71large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/gotm71mini.jpg

Expansionistic Bonus: Some of the closer Goody Huts will be eliminated to reduce the random effect of the Expansionistic trait, BUT I will leave in more huts than I normally do so feel free to explore widely. Conquest and Open levels will get a bonus Scout and 50 Gold.

Conquest-Class Bonuses:

Start with Deity Level AI Bonus Units!!!
Start with an Extra 150 Gold (in part to support the extra units)
Start with knowledge of The Wheel



Predator-Class Challenges:

Start without Pottery
Do not get Expansionistic Bonus
Your UU will not start your Golden Age


A reminder: do not post any game information to this thread after you have downloaded the save file. Absolutely no spoiler information for this or any GOTM is to be posted in this thread!

That's a lot of strong tiles. How about moving the Settler NW?

That's a lot of strong tiles. How about moving the Settler NW?

Away from the river ??

I want an early extra worker because of the inevitable cutting down of some forests, so the extra food available from the start by moving NW is desireable. But no, I'll build another warrior first anyway - if I dare go predator, otherwise a scout.

Away from the river?

As long as the capital is a Settler Factory, it doesn't grow larger than 6. Later, building an Aqueduct is costly but affordable. The advantage of getting the Cattle tile at once is considerable. Also the Game tile is very strong already without Worker actions. And we can found a city on Furs/Plains at RPC3, perhaps hoping there's a third of these tiles 2SE by the river.

I think I like NW also. Looks like coast 3 to the E so getting a bit further inland should give a better core. Scout 1st for explore. More contacts on Pangaea to decrease tech cost and increase trading opportunities. With this start and careful MM it should be a breeze.

The start site couldn't be better! I hope there's not a barbarian camp nearby; even if they stay at a distance they make me nervous :shifty:. Scout to Game, then towards west or south. Second scout maybe 2E. I'll probably end up moving my settler NW to get as many surrounding RCP3 cities as possible next to a river!

This game looks exciting. I've only won on deity once- but on a tiny map- so this should be a real challenge. I just hope I can pull off a victory(time may also be a problem what with college starting again).

If my calculations are correct, settling NW will give a slightly better return of shields and food in the first 10 turns of the game even with the turn lost moving. Drawbacks are having to build an aqueduct eventually, and losing the defence bonus(though of course we won't be needing that:scared:).

Finally, a deity game! I haven't even downloaded a GOTM save since the last deity game.

This looks like great fun, pangaea large deity. I'd settle on the spot, build a scout then a worker then a granary then settlers. Probably start researching alpha at max. And maybe, if there's another food bonus near the cow and or wheat make a 2 turn worker factory. It's hard to imagine that a deity game with a UU that only needs horses wouldn't have horses somewhere around here, so I'll probably base my early game plan around a horsie rush. So maybe I'll research The Wheel first. Or maybe alpha to capitalize on brokering opportunities. I don't know.

If NW is better, might not 2NW be better still? 3E has water. If coast not lake, it likely continues not far south of current span of view. 2NW gives more room to fill in with southern cities, restores river access, and grabs a little more territory to the north where the territorial race is likely to ensue.

If NW is better

I don't know if it is.

might not 2NW be better still?

That's very far to walk, and you lose the Wheat for the fifth fpt. This is PTW, so cutting the forest for Game takes a small eternity. Irrigating Game for a total of 6 fpt gives you MM hell sharing with another city. I wouldn't do that.

2NW [...] grabs a little more territory to the north where the territorial race is likely to ensue.

You mean: 2NW puts us even closer to the nearest aggressive deity AI, making it more likely to devour us between its first and second breakfast?

If NW is better, might not 2NW be better still? 3E has water. If coast not lake, it likely continues not far south of current span of view. 2NW gives more room to fill in with southern cities, restores river access, and grabs a little more territory to the north where the territorial race is likely to ensue.

Is there enough shields for a 4 turn settler factory? There's no 2-shield tile after the game forest is cut.

2NW gives more room to fill in with southern cities, restores river access, and grabs a little more territory to the north where the territorial race is likely to ensue.

Erm... we do start in the far north east right? So it figures that our enemies will be in the south west.


There's enough shields for a four turn factory if you settle in place- the cow, the wheat, the game and mined grasslands is plenty. If you settle on a grassland, and there isn't another in the radius, then a forest will have to be cut down. The scout(s) will reveal whether there's more grassland or not. There may be a lot of hills instead though.

If you settle 1NW, you can use the grassland 1E of the start, so either way there is enough ammo for a 4-turner (sizes 5 and 6); irrigated moo, irrigated wheat, unchopped game, 2 mined grasslands. Once you get a fur chopped, irrigated and roaded, you can use that instead of the game, which can then be chopped for a worker pump.

There's enough shields for a settler fact. even if the game gets chopped, which would be a smart thing to do for the food bonus for another city.

I say I'll be dead before I get my second tech researched!:goodjob:

I like the 1NW idea since it shaves a turn or two off growth at first. 2NW kills that idea though. With no knowledge of what the land is around I wouldn't go 2 off start on a wild goose chase for better RCP. I think I'd keep game at status quo until the first worker and go irrigate the plain wheat across right after. The forest N of the N fur can be chopped for routing the beavers after fur and wheat have been worked.

Predator-Class Challenges:
Start without Pottery


Giving me quite a headache. The problem here seems to be getting Pots before the 30-shield prebuild becomes a settler. I suppose if my scouts haven't found anyone from whom I can buy Pots, then I will just have to build an early second town.
Ignoring the Pots issue, I didn't find much difference between moving and settling place; moving gets the first settler out one turn earlier, and allows the game to be chopped and used by another town a turn or so earlier. Settling in place gets more commerce, in part because the factory runs smaller, at 3.5 - 5.5 instead of 4.0 - 6.0, so other towns will be less often burdened by lux taxes they don't need.

Well here goes. Wish me luck. ;)

Settling in place gets more commerce, in part because the factory runs smaller, at 3.5 - 5.5 instead of 4.0 - 6.0, so other towns will be less often burdened by lux taxes they don't need.

Is the extra commerce because the city will be on the river, or due to resources?

Regardless, I'll be settling NW, seeing as I've already advocated the move.

iirc the gross extra commerce for the capital amounted to about 70-80g extra, so yes; just the extra 1gpt for being on the river. Whether on or off the river, every other tile you work will sooner or later be at 2gpt. I forgot to note which scenario got the furs hooked quicker though... that's an important consideration when counting out the pennies.

This is going to be my first ever Deity game! Hope I don't get butchered...! I first wanted to play COTM40 instead, as I like C3C a bit better then PTW, but finishing it in two weeks is just completely impossible for me.

I'm still uncertain whether to settle on the spot or move. I think, if I try to turn the capital into a powerhouse (like in my GOTM70), then having it on the river will save the Aqueduct. But if I try the "Palace jump plan", that everybody here seems to be so fond of, then investing into the capital won't be necessary anyway, will it? The capital may be abandoned, before an Aqueduct becomes necessary, so in this case moving doesn't hurt much.

However, for a Palace jump you'll need to have conquered a good spot where you can jump to... And I doubt that I'll be capable of conquering anything early on against Deity opposition...! So I guess I rather use my capital as long-standing powerhouse, and then I want it to grow quickly, so I stay on the river. (Unless my scouts reveal something that makes me change my plan...)

Lanzelot

Checked my numbers, and settling in place is 43g ahead by turn 50 (including the fact that the granary is built later), earns 2g extra per settler thereafter, and builds the first scout/axe one turn earlier. But it is one turn behind in terms of the settler timetable. I'm undecided. And I still don't know where I'm getting Pots from...

Settling in place gets more commerce, in part because the factory runs smaller, at 3.5 - 5.5 instead of 4.0 - 6.0

Why wouldn't you use exactly the same tiles for both factories?

I will move my scouts and then make the detailed spread-sheets.

Because when you settle in place, you can use both furs as 2f2s tiles. Moving 1NW means you can reach only one of them, so you need to run slightly larger to make up the extra shields (assuming you want to free the game up for another town).
I too will move my scout before the final decision on where to settle, but given the rough terrain around us, and the power of the tiles we see, it seems unlikely that we will see anything new that will make much difference.

Checked my numbers, and settling in place is 43g ahead by turn 50 (including the fact that the granary is built later), from...

I will move my scouts and then make the detailed spread-sheets.

I know my opening will be played much weaker, but it will be played and not "spread-sheeted" ;).
I am never sure, whether I should appreciate the amount of planning some people spend on the game before starting. :confused:

PS: No pun intended!

tao, I'm not sure what to think either, but we would all like to do our very best, wouldn't we? Read Più Freddo's spoiler for GOTM70 and tell me you wouldn't have liked to play that game yourself...

Più Freddo, was that a plural "s" I saw after "scout?"

Più Freddo, was that a plural "s" I saw after "scout?"

Yes. I'm not at Deity player. I'm not comfortable with the amount of exploitation of game mechanics that is needed to survive the initial phases. I've simply too litte experience. I play no other Civ games than the G/COTM, and there I can usually only complete the one or the other each month. That's no way to reach Deity.

I know my opening will be played much weaker, but it will be played and not "spread-sheeted" ;).
I am never sure, whether I should appreciate the amount of planning some people spend on the game before starting. :confused:

PS: No pun intended!

Depends on your definition of play? I've already played the start of this game three or four times, and I haven't even downloaded the save yet. Of course, when I do it for real, my plans will have to change to take account of the stuff that I don't yet know about; this time last month, I had a highly detailed plan of how to get a 10-10-10-10-10-10 factory running, which got thrown out completely when I found the extra food bonus. So I started from scratch, planning how best to get a 4-turn factory. But that's okay, double the fun in a way. I do it because I enjoy the optimisation exercise, not because I expect an extra citizen and a couple of extra pennies will make a big difference in the results table.
And because just occasionally I manage to beat Più in the QSC. :D

I appreciate the spread-sheeting approach and the attempt to optimize (and the discussion, which makes the information more available), but I've rarely actually done such activities; just not enough time!

I appreciate the spread-sheeting approach and the attempt to optimize (and the discussion, which makes the information more available)

My spread-sheet is available in all my QSC submissions. It originally comes from SirPleb. I know Paper Beetle uses his own and then there's Offa's sheet, which probably is the most sophisticated of them all.