Until my last game, I would adopt Free Religion as soon as I get Liberalism, switching back to Theocracy or Org. Religion only if I really needed. Cheaper upkeep, happiness bonus, less diplomatic trouble and a little science help. Pretty good.
However, in the game I'm currently playing, I managed to build the University of Sankore and the Spiral Minaret (I hardly ever research Divine Right, even if I can found Islam), and when I switched to Free Religion, I saw that wasnt any good. Less income, less science. As I'm playing a peaceful strategy, happiness isnt much of a problem, and diplomacy isnt bad either. So, I run Org. Religion most of the time, switching to Theocracy if I need troops, and that's all.
So, am I right to conclude that these wonders together make Free Religion almost useless?

If you're getting more science and money, well, then yea.

It gets worse when monastaries go obsolete, which isn't far past the University of Sankore though.

I usually have all of: Spiral Minerat, Sankore, AP bonuses, great library, parthenon, Temple of Artemis and monastaries in EVERY single city.

I don't research Scientific method untill its the VERY last tech to research, so I usually miss out on the free Gspy/scientist from getting physics/communism first. However, having assemebley line, steam-power, railroad, fascism, before any of the AI's is nice. I dont always manage to build cristo, but rarely I loose in building the pentagon. WHen I finally do realize i need SM, my science and gold per turn plummet severely, like (+1300:science:, :+133:gold:, suddently to (+984:science:, and -67:gold:)..(since often I have 5 monastaries in my Oxford city) but the step is nessessary.

I usually have all of: Spiral Minerat, Sankore, AP bonuses, great library, parthenon, Temple of Artemis and monastaries in EVERY single city.

i haven't gone FR in any BtS game where i've had the AP religion so far, regardless of other wonders. i haven't researched mass media even once *giggle*.

free religion has diplomatic benefits in some cases of course, but i haven't yet had a game where that would benefit me more than the AP bonuses. note i'm including the "stop the war against poor helpless KMad" vote option as a bonus, not just the hammers from buildings ;).

you're definitely right that SciM can be painful. some people don't realize that when monasteries go obsolete, you don't get the wonder benefit from them any more, even tho the wonder isn't obsolete.

I usually have all of: Spiral Minerat, Sankore, AP bonuses, great library, parthenon, Temple of Artemis and monastaries in EVERY single city.

:eek:

Perhaps it's time you move up in difficulty...maybe more than one notch. I'm lucky to get one of the above mentioned wonders and can still pull of victory on Emperor occasionaly.

There is another catch with the religious strategy: diplo ;)

:eek:

Perhaps it's time you move up in difficulty...maybe more than one notch. I'm lucky to get one of the above mentioned wonders and can still pull of victory on Emperor occasionaly.

I play Immortal/Deity. Even on Deity I can usually (obviously not always) built all these.

Spiral Minerat, Sankore, AP bonuses, great library, parthenon, Temple of Artemis

Not an impossible list with a plan.

I in fact only go FR on extreamly rare occasions, like the last 30 turns for a space win or something. (tho often then I adapt pacifism to farm that last GP for a golden age)

I played a game on this Thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242678&page=3,
(the flying dutchman, deity adventures)

Even tho the Dutch aren't industrial and this is on Deity, I still managed Usankore, SM, AP(i didn't built it but got benefits), and I built parthenon. I think I did miss out on ToA, but I've built that too on other deity games. I find I can usually build 4 of the 5 (UoS,SM,ToA,Parth,AP) regardless of the difficulty or wheither Im playing a non-industrial civ without marble/stone.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0056.jpg

Here's a link to the save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=160378&d=1189886072
Temples/monastaries in most of my cities. And its giving me a huge +2:gold:,+2:science:,+2:hammers: boost per building.

Org Religion (don't underestimate the power of that extra +25% production for buildings/wonders!) + AP (don't build it, have someone else build it an mooch off them) + Sistine + Spiral + U of Sankore = badass combo.

Nice job building all that stuff.

Can you explain what either Parthenon or Sistine Chapel have to do with the Spiral Minaret/U of Sankore/AP with religion strategy? Do the above two wonders count as religious buildings and get the same bonuses as Temples/Monasteries etc?

I understand that ToA and GL obsolete with Scientific method.

Nuwan

Nice job building all that stuff.

Can you explain what either Parthenon or Sistine Chapel have to do with the Spiral Minaret/U of Sankore/AP with religion strategy? Do the above two wonders count as religious buildings and get the same bonuses as Temples/Monasteries etc?

I understand that ToA and GL obsolete with Scientific method.

Nuwan

I dont know what the Parthenon has to do with this, but the Sistine Chapel provides culture for each state religion building (BtS only).

the tech tree needs to be reworked a bit so that scientific method is required for i don't know...almost everything in the modern age

It is. You can only go as far as assembly line and combustion (which without oil is a pretty useless tech).

It is. You can only go as far as assembly line and combustion (which without oil is a pretty useless tech).

yeah but this is still pretty far imo. Infantry, the pentagon, railroads, steam-power, Leeve's, machine guns, and factories is pretty far w/out having to research scientific method. I virtually always hold off on it till its the last tech to reseach. You may as well tech combustion too before SM, since you cant build wells unless you have combustion.

I'm usually a monarch player (I like to win all my games :p), occasionnally I play emperor.
I don't build loads of wonders, but I capture a large number :lol:.
It's rather frequent for me to have the SM+UoS combo.
In the rare BtS games I played, I usually had the SM+UoS+AP combo, making free religion a big :nono:.
I don't delay scimet for too long if I'm not running for cultural though. physics and biology are such too good to miss.

I generally beeline for Astronomy to get intercontinental foreign trade routes with Great Lighthouse. Having a religion would kill the strategy because the other continent hates you for being different religion and won't even agree to Open Borders.

Also I'm always at war on my own continent and I crack that whip so extra happiness is great.

Cheers,

Dai

Religon rarely affects my ability to get open borders (Tokugawa is the only that has be pleased). You might not be able to get the them right away since you don't have the supplied resources and fair trades +s.

I dislike the plummet that occurs when one researches Scientific Method... This could be remedied by modding some files so that when you research said technology, your educational facilities get a significant output boost. How one would argue for Scientific Method adding commerce points to anything, I'm not sure... And I just can't see that happening.

But, Scientific Method adding at least a 50% Science output boost to Libraries and such would make up for missing out on or losing the Spiral Minaret / Sankore / Great Library combo. And it seems only logical that such a historically important technology would increase science output by so much.

I dislike the plummet that occurs when one researches Scientific Method... This could be remedied by modding some files so that when you research said technology, your educational facilities get a significant output boost. How one would argue for Scientific Method adding commerce points to anything, I'm not sure... And I just can't see that happening.

But, Scientific Method adding at least a 50% Science output boost to Libraries and such would make up for missing out on or losing the Spiral Minaret / Sankore / Great Library combo. And it seems only logical that such a historically important technology would increase science output by so much.

hmm well i will have to disagree with you there. The scientific method in itself wouldn't give a gigantic boost to research. For some technological areas, it would have been possible to make most of the advances without the scientific method. However, once you get to certain, more intricate branches of science, the SM is required to analyze the evidence and find solutions.

That is why you don't need SM for building a factory or learning how to build a rifle. To an extent, these accomplishments can be gained through more rudimentary scientific techniques, like trial and error, direct observation, etc. Keep in mind that before scientific method, it was still the case that scientists were very clever and exacting in their research.

However, for Physics and the like, working with subatomic particles, you need more advanced research methods.

Well FR v. Spiral+Sankore
Pre SM

+10% res v. + 8 base commerce (gold+science)

given you probably have ~+50-70% already (university..monasteries)
so FR gives a 1/17 to 1/15 bonus
Religion is better if base science is less than 120 to 140

Religion wins hands down (only advantage FR has is the bonus is free.. no buildings required)

Post Sci Meth
+10% v. 4 (gold+sci)
base bonus is probably +75% or +50% so FR gives 1/17.5 or 1/15 bonus
which means Religion is ahead as long as your base research is less than 60 or 70... true for many non cottage spam cities but not all

by this point Free Religion is a contender

Well FR v. Spiral+Sankore
Pre SM

+10% res v. + 8 base commerce (gold+science)

given you probably have ~+50-70% already (university..monasteries)
so FR gives a 1/17 to 1/15 bonus
Religion is better if base science is less than 120 to 140

Religion wins hands down (only advantage FR has is the bonus is free.. no buildings required)

Post Sci Meth
+10% v. 4 (gold+sci)
base bonus is probably +75% or +50% so FR gives 1/17.5 or 1/15 bonus
which means Religion is ahead as long as your base research is less than 60 or 70... true for many non cottage spam cities but not all

by this point Free Religion is a contender

you seem to say that you can have 75% bonus to gold and science in all cities at this point, which is rather rare for me.

+ you seem to say that the 10% bonus applies to gold and science too, which is clearly untrue.

or do you mean that only science matters? This is clearly untrue too, it's quite often a big difference to lose 2 gpt (+ a few more for cathedrals) in every city.

What I wanted to say is I try to stick with a religion if I have the "ultimate religious combo", up to the point where I just can't keep building religious units and buildings, andthat is when I go all out war.
At this point science matters, but not as much as production, so I stick with a religion only if I have the AP bonus.

Those 2 gpt can be 'changed into' science by increasing your slider (and science->gold by dropping the slider)
SO
Spiral+Sankore essentially gives you 4 extra science points on every state religious building

So Pre-Sci Method... assuming Libraries and one Monastery in each city that's at least 35%...2 Monasteries is 45%... add a University and its 70%

so 50-70% .. not in every city, but in reasonably developed ones... in less developed ones,
Free Religion is a 1/11 bonus in a city with nothing more than a temple and a Monastery so it beats SM+UoS if base science is >88 Not likely with an undeveloped city (or even a developed city pre Sci M)

Post Sci Method... by this point you have Libraries and Observatories as 2 cheap science buildings(Obs replacing the 2 Monasteries) so the range is the same
Still even in an Undevelepoed FR=1/10 bonus and that means base research must be >40 to match the Temple bonus... do able, especially once its a strong cottage city. Even if developed only has to be more than 60-70 commerce.

So the combo makes religion automatically better in a research output sense, until after Sci Method.. then it becomes more of a possibility to go FR with the combo

Of course AP tilts the balance further in the favor of religion.

Another point to consider...

With Free religion, the bonuses are some happiness and research. Happiness is often not even needed at that point.

Say the bonuses from your buildings do not equal the extra 10%, you MAY want to keep a state religion civic anyways.

Lesser bonus to research, but double GP rate, or +2 exp to units, or 25% production to buildings. Could be more valuable.

I either delay SM as much as possible or beeline for it. Both strategies still works under monarch. A religious-based strategy gives u less flexibility compare to a tech-based one in diplo though.

Another point to consider...

With Free religion, the bonuses are some happiness and research. Happiness is often not even needed at that point.

Say the bonuses from your buildings do not equal the extra 10%, you MAY want to keep a state religion civic anyways.

Lesser bonus to research, but double GP rate, or +2 exp to units, or 25% production to buildings. Could be more valuable.

right, but double edged
with free religion, you get no religious diplomatic penalty, and this may be more valuable than any Xp to units or bonus to GPPs or to production