In this series of challenges I have started, the goal is to achieve a cultural victory, a victory type I have not often seen achieved in the challenges presented here. I will be using several different civs that have strengths that can be leveraged to achieve such a victory.

In this challenge, the leader is Gandhi, who is Philosophical and Spiritual. He starts with Mysticism and Mining. His strengths suggest pursuing religions and getting plenty of Great People.

The settings are Hemispheres (two continent) on a Standard map, Noble difficulty and Epic speed.

Here is the starting location.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/9751/civ4screenshot0000us6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Marble is perfect, as it allows us to speed up the construction of several Wonders that will help with a cultural victory. We've got riverside territory for cottaging and seafood, so Fishing will be a priority tech.

I think I should just settle in place and then pursue either Meditation or Polytheism to claim one of the early religions. Then get Fishing and Bronze Working, followed by other Worker techs that may be needed, depending on what's revealed to the east.

I don't think there's argument about settling in place, but how does the tech path sound? And any other input on how to leverage Gandhi's traits toward the cultural victory?

Saved game follows.

Religions and cathedral spam with a nice artist GP farm should to the trick.

Oh man! You win! Ive spent considerable time (certainly more than necessary) trying to perfect a cultural win with Gandhi and that start is simply awesome. Might partake in this challenge when I get home just because I like that start so much ;)

Since it is noble, I would grab fishing then polytheism.

Fishing is cheap, and shouldn't prevent founding hinduism. Problem with religious teching early is nothing for workers to do. You can build 2 fish boats if you go fishing first, and get the city developed. I doubt you will miss Hinduism by delaying it on Noble.

Going for culture, I see no reason not to grab 3 of the 4 early religions, balancing builder techs in there.

Fishing
Polytheism
BW (chops, bronze)

Then, depending on what else is to the east, likely:

Agriculture
Masonry
Monotheism (OR and Judaism)
Priesthood (open up oracle)
Pottery
Writing
Set for CoL from oracle.

Alternative: also research Meditation, and self research CoL and grab philosophy with oracle (not sure how risky this is on noble, but in my prince walk through game, Oracle still wasn't built in the ADs)

Along with CoL from Oracle strategy, could whip library when 1 turn from finishing oracle (it will wait to complete until ready for CoL), run 2 scientists,
use scientist to pop philosophy for ultra early pacifism.

This sounded like a fun game to try, even though I play on emperor level usually.

It's 1230 AD, a few turns from Divine Right which will give me my 5th religion.
3 cities over 100 culture/turn, and just started building first cathedrals.

I started with fishing. With nothing but mines for my first worker to build, I hate going for religion first, even when trying for culture. If I had started with agr or fishing, would have started with polytheism.

After fishing, made a stab at Hinduism. Apparently 2 civs starting with mysticism out there, one chose meditation, one chose poly, because I was only a few turns into poly and both religions had been founded. No biggie. I had a strategy planned to get the other 5.

After Hinduism was lost, immediately switched to BW. No reason to delay development. After BW, grabbed masonry, finished poly, and then mono for judaism. Grabbed Agriculture and then the Wheel to hook up the marble, then priesthood for oracle. Then writing to open up CoL. Built the oracle, and rather than CoL as I had planned, decided to grab theology for christianity. Self researching CoL should be easy. After the oracle, the capital built a library, and ran 2 scientists through most of the early game. The first one built an academy. The second bulbed philosophy.

Grabbed CS for the bureaucracy bonus, then MC for forges, then shot up the aeshtetics, music drama line, unfortunately missing the free artist by 1 turn. After that, went to optics to meet some people. Forgot to mention after researching CoL, I grabbed IW because horses were far away and no copper nearby.

After 2 workboats, a worker, then a chopped settler. First build was a 2nd warrior to scout and grow. There was stone nearby. That was city 2. 3rd city was a clear production city in the corn/cow site to the east. Shortly thereafter, a 4th city to grab corn and cows right by the HRE. I wanted to stake a claim to territory there, grab a clearly awesome GP farm. cities 5 and 6 were the 4 flood plain city S and slightly east of the capital, and the fish plus cow site east of the capital. City 7 was culture flipped from the HRE (idiot settled it on the wine between my 3rd and 4th cities and it lasted about 20 turns). In the far NW is room for city 8 to take the whales, and city 9, I think will capture the silver, 2 fish city of HRE in the NE

9 cities, 5 religions, free speech, +350% culture.
Having stone and marble, and 3 fair production sites, I made this a wonderspam culture game. All 3 cities have been building wonders. city 2's first build after a worker was the Pyramids. Plenty of forests to chop, and the 2 workers I had plus the one from the 2nd city all chopped till the 'mids were complete.

At this point, I have built most wonders, the only important ones I missed being the Great Lighthouse and the Hanging Gardens. I built the Apostolic Palace early for the excellent production boost, and future diplomatic help. With the AP, all new cities get in short order, a christian missionary, and then a chopped temple and monastery. quick +4 hammers. Now I am at the point that my 3 cities are working on their cathedrals, trying to build a few maces to take a city or 2 from HRE, and have 3 cities running 4 or 5 artist specialists to build Great artists.

All that's left is to grab another city, build cathedrals, make great artists, and take the victory.

Awesome start, this could be the game I claim my first Cultural Victory in, when I get my precious vacation... Ehm... Settle in place definately, and tech path, as mentioned, should be Fish->Poly->BW->Mason->Mono-->Writing->Priesthood, grab Oracle for Theocracy or CoL...

Eventually, you could use the two clam spaces (2:commerce:) to make a try at the 7headed hydra?

Round 1: 4000 BC to 2750 BC

A fairly short round as I played until a religion was founded and the initial tech path I decided was completed.

I settled in place and went with the gambit of going for Fishing first, followed by Polytheism. Unfortunately, I wasn't the first to Poly, and somebody else had founded Buddhism, so the gambit didn't work.

So after that didn't work, I targeted Monotheism. With Marble in my BFC, Masonry was going to be a priority anyway.

I did get some help on tech path, though, as I popped Bronze Working from a goody hut. On the flip side, I lost one of my Warriors who was exploring when another hut popped out a Barb.

And after missing out on Hinduism, I got to Monotheism first and founded Judaism in Delhi. And this is where I stopped. Here's a look at the map.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/571/civ4screenshot0011lf1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I've already built a Workboat and the Fast Worker is building a quarry on the Marble. I need to get a couple more Warriors out so I can get my first Settler out. Then I'll likely build another Fast Worker, and then decide on the first Wonder to pursue.

Stonehenge would be nice, but I'm thinking maybe the Temple of Artemis should be pursued instead? I've got Marble, so the ToA may be a better option.

Thoughts on where to go next on the tech path? As you can see, there's no Copper to be found. Animal Husbandry may be an option, as there are Cows in several possible city spots. And, of course, there's the Writing/Priesthood path to get to Code of Laws through Oracle.

A dotmap is in order, and if anyone wants to jump in, feel free. Saved game is attached.

Settler ASAP. I would settle 1S of cows, grabbing stone and wheat. For a cultural victory, wonders are gold, and having stone and marble makes it easy. Have capital keep building for expansion, and once stone site is settled, capital can build stonehenge and GW while city 2 chops the pyramids.

Get at least 2 workers ASAP. City 2 should probably build worker first.

With all of that wine and incense just south of you on the river, I think you need to beeline for Christianity <g>

Seriously, not a bad idea maybe for a cultural victory, since the AP is very useful. I've won a cultural victory with Gandhi on warlord level, but haven't tried him on noble yet for cultural. (I did get a diplomatic victory with him, though. I've got to say, I think the India is probably the most versatile civ for peaceful victories, with great UU as well as a great UB.)

OK, so build path will be two Warriors (including the one being built) then straight to a Settler, whipping on the final turns, then a Worker. Get Stone/Cows/Wheat city founded.

Tech path, thus, should be to AH, which also reveals Horses. After that, probably should go with Priesthood.

And oh yes... change to Organized Religion. Haven't done that yet.

....Temple Of Artemis is great for religion hydra as it provides a free priest for :gp: against prophets for shrines. Just my 2:commerce:

Now give me that vacation! I'm stressed! :run:

Looks like you may be isolated. This can help during a Cultural Victory, since no Aggressive civs are around, but it may also hinder teching.

Lotsa happiness resources, so Monarchy and Calender are priorities-Calender especially so you can see where you are in relation to the globe. Looks like you're a little north of the Tropics, since there's minimal jungle and the indicators are pointing down. Commerce is in large supply, but it looks like production is low. I see a city site already:

One tile south of the cows, on the coast. Instant hook-up to trading network via Sailing, and the fatcross has Cows, Wheat, and STONE!

After Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Sailing, and Writing are all set, grab Iron Working and start founding religions. A 5-headed hydra is the best bet, since clearly there are other Spiritual Civs. The 3-headed hydra may be all you get though.

ouch @ the tech situation. Obviously your looking to pop 15+ GA's before like 1000 AD or so so get those cities out there 20 turns ago... With marble you obviously want pantheon. Any other world wonders aren't very good(well a couple others of the +great artist ones might be usefull). Basically look to cottage up 1 maybe 2 cities 4 floodplains corn city can run like 18 cottages i think. You realy don't want overlap in this city as i want to work all it's titles. Might have to have the capital use some of the floodplains, haven't done the math but at least that river city looks nice. Captial can spam GA wonders / run great artists. The weath cow (stone) city can also run some great artists(though not too many obviously still enough to produce some in pacifism with philo). Other than that there is an non-seaside cow/corn/crab city that may be able to run quite some artists. Obviously you should be first to confuncanism and philo easy. Hope to get spread 1-2 more. Obviously you don't want to get a great priest so i would strongly avoid getting oracle in capital unless it is unavoidable(you do have marble after all...

Stone cow weath city is obviously strictly worse than the tripple floodplains + corn city so no idea why you want to found it first... Most of the great artist stuff require marble right?(pantheon is a must national epic and eventually heroic epic somewhere too i guess). You do need horses or maybe even gasp archers to defend against barbs though at this level they aren't that much of a worry... Pyramids might be usefull so you don't need to get to democracy to be able to be able to rushby but stonehenge in capital is a very bad idea(as is oracle since you want the pool to be pretty pure). As long as you can get pantheon up in time + code of laws it might be a good idea to get some combination of pyramids / oracle / stonehenge in the cottage city(which isn't going to run artists, this is also going to get the most cathedrals obviously). I can't see if your isolated but if you are you should just focus on settling the 9 most beneficial cities(you are playing standard right?) get the 3 religions and then lib for something along with as many usefull wonders as you care to stuff in your cities without poluting the great person pool too badly(you want loads and loads of great artist remember). There is another tripple floodplains city that might be used for cottages though it can only run like 13 cottages or something so might not be worth it... That would prolly need the most culture bombing(obviously bombing is better than settling most of the time). You could farm it a bit to have it grow faster to size 13 then cottage over the farms. main gp farm is likely capital(though not very good it will likely have some good wonders(ie pantheon and other great artist wonders). Cow / stone /weath city will also run some artists(more after irigation obviously). You can actually get all wonders you want at prince(though this might not be smart as it would produce a very wide varity of stuff). Hopefully you'll find some double fish + other food positive titles or something to get even more great artists. Settle the cities start generating GA's everywhere. Cottage up the 1-2 cottage cities, farm everything else(to get more GA's). No reason whatsoever to expand past 9 cities(or more if it is larger than standard map). Get religions and culture buildings in your 3 cities then spread religion and build temples everywhere while buildings GA wonders in capital. You did read the fast cultural diety thread going on in the hof forum right?

(yeah i know i should prolly have used some paragraphs).

Stonehenge and oracle in capital is definitely not bad. The great prophets can be used to build the shrines and pop the religions. I had 1 GP/GE city in my last cultural victory game, 1 GS city and 1 GA city (parthenon, globe theatre, sistine chapel, national epic). Later switched all specialists of course to artists. Production city is right now more important then heavy food city.

do you really need to play on noble level?:(

My gandhi strat when going for cultural has 3 keys :
- keeping away from any unwanted war,
- grabbing (not necessarily founding) as many religions
- using the philo and spi traits to juggle between $ and pop rushing and getting as many great artists as possible (from pacifism + mercantilism + caste system +representation to universal suffrage, slavery, orgrel and back again)

well shrines are pretty bad... they won't give you 4000 culture over the course of a game... and having shrine + oracle + stonehenge will definatly give you more GP's for even more wasted culture.

Consider Sistine Chapel. +5 :culture: for state religion buildings and +2 :culture: per specialist.
W00t.

Consider Sistine Chapel. +5 :culture: for state religion buildings and +2 :culture: per specialist.
W00t.

sistine chapel is the wonder that allows your GA farm to reach legendary status almost as fast as the rest.
This is really huge.

You have stone, you have marble, you have production sites, it's noble.
Getting much of your culture from wonders is perfectly reasonable.

I think Great Prophets are fine. Settle them to help with all that building you need to do.

All early wonders are useful just for their culture that will double in 1000 years. I think stonehenge is 6 culture? It will soon be 12, and with 5 cathedrals and free speech, that's 54 culture per turn.

Round Two: 2750 BC to 1775 BC

So I headed down the path to Animal Husbandry through Agriculture, as that was what would be needed for city No. 2, given its location. I also added Wheel so the Marble can be hooked up and to hook up the two cities.

This required I do fogbusting as there were a couple times in which Barb Warriors would show up after the second city was built. And I built it in the Cow/Wheat/Stone spot suggested.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7730/civ4screenshot0003hq3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As it turns out, I am not isolated... Charlamegne is my neighbor. He's already Annoyed with me, as he's the guy who founded Buddhism.

And we will not be building Stonehenge... that is because it was built just a moment after I finished my second Fast Worker, and opted to build a Jewish Missionary to spread religion to Bombay, so I could get that Stone online sooner. I suspect somebody already had access to Stone or prioritzed that ahead of building a second city.

After Wheel, I picked up Priesthood and am working toward Writing. Here's a look at the map.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1867/civ4screenshot0007dc4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Charlamegne is off to the east, and from what I looked at on the map, he's on the coast. So it looks like we have the same situation as last time... me and another guy on the same continent. The difference here, though, is we aren't close to each other and have room to expand.

I started Oracle in Delhi. I think ToA is still worth a shot, perhaps in my second city. But first, I think the second city needs to build a unit and a Settler, and after Delhi completes Oracle, that city will also work on a unit and a Settler.

As far as techs go, after Writing, I'm heading to Iron Working. No Copper that I've seen and Horses are far away, so IW is a priority.

Lastly, REXing is probably a good idea, so I can take as much land away from Charlie as possible. War is inevitable, but I can wait until I've build up a proper invasion force to take him down. With no Copper and no nearby Horses, and Charlie being so far away, an early rush won't happen.

Saved game follows. And FYI, I won't get to the next round until Sunday at the earliest, so there's plenty of time to discuss the next steps. :)

I suppose you will oracle CoL?
Or do you go for theology?
I strongly suggest theology, because :
1) it costs more
2) Apostolic palace is clearly a good wonder when you're going to build loads of temples (and monasteries).
3) theology opens up paper (with no need for civil service, although bureaucracy is always a good civic), leading to University of Sankore. Another good, stone based wonder, for a civ with loads of temples.
4) if you're teching fast, you can get CoL before the oracle.

Question : did you switch to Org rel?

Unless you grab CoL with oracle, i´d say REX might be a bad idea. It will hurt your economy greatly since there is no gold/gems/silver to pay for the maintains... Maybe go for 1 more settler and then go for some wonders now that you got both stone and marble... It´s a "wonder" start and it will help greatly with the culture.

Unless you grab CoL with oracle, i´d say REX might be a bad idea. It will hurt your economy greatly since there is no gold/gems/silver to pay for the maintains... Maybe go for 1 more settler and then go for some wonders now that you got both stone and marble... It´s a "wonder" start and it will help greatly with the culture.

A few cottages in the wanabee cultural city cannot hurt;) .

Rex is never a bad idea at noble. As long as he have some specialists or cottages there is no way he can go broke. or just run off trade routs. Seriously settle the floodplains/corn city asap and start cottaging it up. There is also another triple floodplains city that you can cottage up. Bombay have a 3 food source which means it is strictly worse to to build the worker from scratch than to grow to size 2 and whip 1 pop into the worker... So many strange priorities... Oracle is fine i guess but it shouldn't be in capital if possible because that means you can't actually turn the capital into a heavy GA farm which is the best site on this map and it is by far the fastest way to win cultural with gandhi. Sistine chapel / pantheon are the wonders you need... not the GP generating oracle / stonehenge. Getting culture from great artists wold serve to highlight the philosophical / spiritual combination as a mean towards getting cultural victory. I strongly advise you read the threads in the hof forum about diety cultural(even though you have to selfresearch instead of trade stuff loads of the principles still apply. Main focus should be to get start generating great artists as fast as possible. Getting to philosophy is of outmost importance(through col) so you can start running caste + pacifism to generate great artist. Nothing beat great artists in speed towards getting cultural victory(along with cottaging up the cities that are actually going to be legendary).

Another thing what good is writing going to do you? You need BW to chop/whip and you need pottery to cottage up the two flood plain cities... Pottery also speeds up writing itself. If there is noone else but charlemange on the continent it might mean you'll have to take him out though a protective leader with holy city will be rough even if it is on noble. Another holy city and a capital would likely be a good spot to go legendary though. Which is also a consideration.

A very very very bad side effect of settling the cow/stone city before the corn/floodplain city is that you realy realy don't want the cow/stone/weath city to be a holy city(for confu) while the corn/floodplains city would be realy nice to have as a holy city because it is in a very good spot to get one of your legendary cities(18 cottages...). At least settle that city before you finish oracle and make sure the cow/stone city isn't bigger than the corn city(because then that will get it), if possible have the corn city bigger. Delaying the oracle also means you can delay writing enough to get BW first which is more important now... Too bad you allready started building a worker in bombay instead of a monument or something...

what terrible luck with copper! and this isn't a case of "iron is just as good" since we want cath doublers! :gripe:

A very very very bad side effect of settling the cow/stone city before the corn/floodplain city is that you realy realy don't want the cow/stone/weath city to be a holy city(for confu) while the corn/floodplains city would be realy nice to have as a holy city because it is in a very good spot to get one of your legendary cities(18 cottages...).

shouldn't be a problem. there's a jewish missionary on the way to cow/stoneville already. if a 3rd city is settled before the next religion is founded, and religion doesn't spread there, it'll be the holy city unless maybe cow/stoneville has muuuuuuch more population.

OTOH, sometimes i hope for my GA farm to not be holy, even when it's one of the big 3. if i'll be sticking with a state religion for most of the game, the +5 culture from a non-SR holy isn't a factor. building a shrine is a factor, since a shrine pollutes your GA pool with a prophet point. if we don't get a lot of prophets, then we won't be building multiple shrines so that might not matter.

Rex is never a bad idea at noble. As long as he have some specialists or cottages there is no way he can go broke. or just run off trade routs.

looks like we have only one neighbor for a while, and he doesn't particularly like us. i'd not count on juicy trade routes yet.

you can't really say anything is "never" or "always" a bad idea based on difficulty level, or that there's "no way" something can happen. noble may be a walk in the park for you, but for somebody struggling with chieftain, noble may as well be deity, and they certainly could goof up. i'm kind of a "mother hen" watching out for noobies i suppose, and i worry about them getting discouraged seeing blanket statements like that. i say that not as a reflection on ratrangerm's abilities, just on general principle. and i don't mean to sound condescending toward you oyzar, i hope what i meant comes across.

@ cabert: Yes, I did switch to OR just a few turns before I completed the round. Forgot to do so right at the start, but at least I was just building units.

I may check Delhi out as well to see if I can squeeze more production out. My thought is to go with production when doing wonders, then work the food/cottages when going for buildings.

And yes, I agree with you that Theology should be the free tech from Oracle. Code of Laws can probably be researched easily enough to still found Confucianism.

@ oyzar: Somebody suggested building a Worker right away in Bombay. Perhaps I should switch to a Library once I get Writing?

Also, I have BW. I already chopped forest for my first settler and the Worker will be there to hook up the Marble and chop more forest.

As for Writing itself, it gets you Libraries. Libraries give you culture, and cultural victory is the goal.

@ KMad: No offense taken. :) I've played at Prince before, but haven't always done as well as I would like. I'll admit to being a more casual player, but still would like to brush up on my tactics.

And yes, I am thinking the next challenge should be at Prince level. :)

On another note, as for techs, Pottery should absolutely come after Iron Working. Since I can get food from flood plains, cottages on top of that are always a good thing.

And I'll work on a dotmap later tonight.

OK, here's the dotmap of the immediate area around my current cities.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/2030/dotmap1.JPG

Red: The third cultural city.. floodplains to cottage, grassland as well, plus Wine and Incense in the BFC.

Blue: Production city... can work Corn and Grassland along the river and some hills.

Green: Another city with floodplains and Grassland on river... either cottaged or farmed, it will work nicely.

Yellow: A potential GP farm with Cows, Corn, and those forested squares adjacent to an Oasis.

Round Three: 1775 BC to 290 BC

I went a little longer with this round. Mostly it concentrated on getting cities founded, infrastructure built and looking for resources.

I got Writing in 1600 BC and went to Pottery next.

And one turn before Pottery was finished, the Oracle was completed in Delhi. Hooking up the Marble helped, as did a forest chop. I picked Theology as my free tech and Christianity ended up being founded in Bombay. Maybe not the best spot for a holy shrine, but I'm still going to cottage it up, and besides, the culture from the shrine will certainly help.

After Pottery, I went with Iron Working and got it in 1000 BC. And good news there... Bombay had Iron in its BFC.

In the meantime, my third cultural city, Vijayanagra was founded.

I grabbed Sailing... I probably didn't absolutely need it, but I figured getting a Galley out might help at some point. I immediately followed Sailing (researched in 800 BC) with Code of Laws.

Patilputra was founded in 525 BC. This will be the production city.

I got a Great Prophet that same turn in Delhi. Naturally, he was used for the Jewish holy shrine. Judaism spread on its own to my other cities and I built a missionary for my fifth city, Varanasi.

And in 290 BC, I got Code of Laws and Confucianism was founded in Vijayanagra. So each of my three cultural cities are holy cities.

I stopped in 290 BC. I've attached the map of my land, as well as a map of the eastern half of the continent.

Items that are on the "to build" list include another Fast Worker, plus some additional units and settlers to claim that land to the east.

I haven't switched out of Slavery yet... I think I could use some whipping to get buildings out quicker before making the switch to Caste System. Thoughts?

Bombay is building the Temple of Artemis. The Great Wall and The Great Lighthouse have already been built, so I figure going for ToA isn't a bad idea.

Varanasi could work as either a GP farm or a cottage city. What does everyone think is the better option? I have land for at least two more GP farms to the east.

I picked Aesthetics next... should I go for Monarchy instead? I have Wine, so Monarchy needs to come on the research list.

I haven't heard much from charlemegne at all. I think my production city should get a few units going as soon as the Barracks is finished and send a couple that way to fogbust, look for Barbs and see what Charlie is up to.

Delhi will probably build the Fast Worker once its Library is finished. Does anyone think I should get going on the Apostolic Palace there next?

Saved game is attached.

thats an awfull spot for cities... vija**.. should have been 1w to be a perfect spot for legendary city. Of course the other city would have to be scrappyed. But seriously that city is crap anwyays... not getting the corn for the river city is soo bad it is not funny... It also misses out on like 2 riverside grassland from this position...

yeehaw we have three religions! but oh boy, there are 5 religions founded and 4 of those are on our continent. i wonder what the other 5 civs are up to? *giggle*

"I haven't switched out of Slavery yet... I think I could use some whipping to get buildings out quicker before making the switch to Caste System. Thoughts?"

the freedom to change back and forth is part of why spiritual is the key trait for me in cultural. but it doesn't look like you whip the way i do ... you don't have any granaries built yet, you don't even have dehli's 2nd clams hooked up ;). i think if you do stick with the non-artist wonders (see below), you probably will want to be able to run artist specialists soon to not get flooded with prophets.

techs i lean to aesthetics now more than monarchy. it leads to music/drama and some nice artist wonders. you should have enough temples to handle happiness for a while is my guess, but that may depend partly on your whipping style.

"I haven't heard much from charlemegne at all. I think my production city should get a few units going as soon as the Barracks is finished and send a couple that way to fogbust, look for Barbs and see what Charlie is up to."

the thing i hate most about having just one neighbor is that there's no way to find out when he has enough on his hands :eek:. if he does start something, we'll wish we had monarchy and longbows oops! i think you know what a paranoid chicken i am ;). we do want to know what land he's claimed. the horses closest to you are actually closer to him, so i bet he's heading there shortly if he's not there already. he's imperialistic, he spits out settlers like crazy.

about the wonders, i just don't know.

i have no clue how fast you have to race for the AP, since i've built it in every single BtS game i've played :lol:. i have no idea what the AI build date would be. i love it for stopping wars, the +2 hammer bonus, etc. i really should play a game where i'm not even a member one of these days. it costs a lot of hammers and has no doubler, so delhi's probably the quickest spot. but you already have +2 prophet points from the oracle and +1 from the shrine there. the AP would bump that up to 5 prophet points a turn, and if you get ToA then bombay will be getting merchant and prophet points. no artist points anywhere in sight.

ToA, there again i'm useless for advice. i almost never build it. i let them spend the hammers and then i know where to send my GMs if i need quick cash. my gut feeling is that it won't do you any good at all right now except for the culture (which is very good) and the GPPs (which aren't the type you want). your trade routes are internal, you don't know currency yet, and my guess is that chuck may never sign OB with you. if you just want a wonder for culture, i'd go for aesthetics and then build the parthenon, it's got culture, artist points, and makes all our GPPs better. maybe SoZ too if you're bored. but i really have no clue how useful ToA is later in the game, so i may be completely offtrack there.

i'm really irritated by those fish north of delhi. health resources are eventually more important than luxuries for CV, at least for me, so why do those fish have to be in such an ugly inconvenient spot? :gripe: maybe there are some north of that corn/yellow dot area. when you fogbust, i'd recommend a complete seafood check up there (walk on every single tile that touches water, to be sure you don't miss anything).

and a peek into just how obsessively i micromanage: i cannot stand unirrigated farms, they drive me up a tree!!!! if i have to chain 5 tiles to get irrigation to rice, more often than not i do it. i'm so stubborn about it that my brain automatically works out the chains before i'm anywhere close to knowing CS. so, being me, i'd not have cottaged that grassland NW in bombay. i don't want to farm the cows of course, so my chain for the wheat would be coming from the plains forest north of the hill the workers are chopping, then onto the now-cottaged tile, the forest S, and then yay finally the wheat isn't dry. knowing that cottage wouldn't stay there in my world, i'd grow a different one and leave that tile be for now. but most sane people aren't that obsessive. some people can live with dry wheat. i don't know how, but they manage *giggle*.

even if irrigation wasn't a factor, i'd have cottaged the one that's adjacent to jungle first, just to prevent the jungle from spreading.

but that's just me. you should see how hubby rolls his eyes at my quirks like that.

I agree with oyzar. confucianist holy city should have been 1 W. Well, too late. Maybe you should try to think about another legendary city.
What's the name of the holy roman capital again? ;)

So you mean, founding on top of the wine is what you would have done?

Eh... maybe it's just me, but I don't like founding on top of resources. But, perhaps you guys are right.

I'm surprised nobody spoke up when I did my dotmap. ;)

I don't think it's entirely lost, though. Who knows, maybe Charlie's capital is the answer. ;)

I still have a few good city sites left, though. I'll need to draw up that dotmap for the next phase of expansion... there should be at least a couple good sites available. On the original dotmap, there's still that yellowdot city (does that look OK) and then there's another Cow/Corn/Wine city waiting to be founded.

Oh, and city No. 5... cottage it up or try a GP farm? It could work either way... I'm a little more tempted to make it a GP farm, given that it lacks food, but has lots of floodplains to be farmed.

So you mean, founding on top of the wine is what you would have done?

Eh... maybe it's just me, but I don't like founding on top of resources. But, perhaps you guys are right.

I'm surprised nobody spoke up when I did my dotmap. ;)

I don't think it's entirely lost, though. Who knows, maybe Charlie's capital is the answer. ;)

all is definitely not lost! that's the spirit (and the truth).

the resources i'm most likely to settle on are plains stone/marble and plains elephants for the extra hammer every turn until 2050, even when nobody is working the bonus tile (which isn't self-supporting for food, so IMO that's a big plus. and wines just because i'm not overly impressed with wineries.

i'm on fairly hard-core drugs this week and plead that as my defense for not speaking out when the city was still a dot on the dotmap.

cottage up the FP. FPs don't let you assign enough specialists.

I spoke up right before you did your dotmap in quite some detail about city placement. It would be silly to repeat myself.. Go rex out your continent and conquer the holy roman empire and then win from there would make it easier to see what should be legendary now that you missed the opportunity of the really nice legendary city by stealing all it's food. Wine is a pretty bad resource most of the time and is very often better cottaged over than built a winery on. Building on the wine would also make you free to cottage up the other wine resource and not lose the +1 happiness.

OK, I'm hoping to get the next round tonight,and probably make it a short one. Hoping to build the next two cities in that round, and I'll beeline to Drame on the tech path.

Round Four: 290 BC to 70 AD

A short round. I built just one city this round, and I may not need to build any more cities, considering that Charlemegne has been busy building his own. He's Imperealistic, so of course, he's going to be cranking out Settlers faster. So that means more cities for me to take. ;)

I did get my sixth city built, Agra, claiming Cows, Corn and Iron. Got it just in time as Charlie was sending Archers and a Settler in that direction.

I also completed Temple of Artemis in 35 BC. I was running a Scientist for a period in Bombay to control growth and speed research a bit. I would later whip a Temple to raise the happiness cap and then I started Parthenon.

I teched to Drama so I can Theatres up and running soon enough.

Only random event to take place was the "forest burned" event, so I replanted it to keep the forest available for future chopping.

Not much else happened... I've attached the saved game and the maps. Charlie seems to have founded part of the western continent, so I'll have units explore what I can there. No way will I get Open Borders, as Charlie remains annoyed with me.

I'm building that Christian Temple in Delhi to raise the happiness cap, then I'll want to whip a Work Boat and start Apostolic Palace after that.I may end up getting a lot of Great Prophets there, but I have two more Holy Shrines to get, could end up with two or three more if things work out (don't forget that Charlie found Buddhism, so that's another Holy City that could soon be mine ;) ), and can always use one for a Golden Age.

A question regarding the forest... when I started the temple, its build time was five turns, the same time it would take to chop forest. How does that work when that happens... do you get a good amount of hammers to go into the next build or do you lose a lot? That's why I didn't start a forest chop when I started the temple, because I wasn't sure if that was the right thing to do.

Once Bombay finishes Parthenon, I'll get a Galley whipped out and start a Theatre, then I can run Artists.

Vija has lots of forests to chop... perhaps a Wonder could be plopped there? Or chop infrastructure?

Agra has GP farm potential, with the two food sources and grassland/plains next to an Oasis. Who knows... it might be a candidate for the third cultural city. Or as cabert suggested, there's always those cities Charlie has. ;)

I'm working to get Axemen to defend my border cities and then will start building other units to raise my power rating and put together an army. I also need to get Courthouses up so I can raise my espionage rate and find out what Charley is up to. It will definitely be best to go after him before he gets too close to Feudalism. Otherwise, his Protective trait will make it tougher to take his cities.

What are thoughts on the tech path to choose? I've currently set it to a Music beeline, but am wondering if I should pick up some other techs first. Since Charlie is annoyed, there's no reason for Alphabet at this time, as he won't trade techs with me (and wouldn't even then unless he has established contact with somebody). Still, I'll be on my own as far as research goes for the time being.

The next round, I'll be exploring what I can of Charlie's territory... won't get to find out much, obviously, but any knowledge I can gather will be helpful.

I think you don't need charlie around, so better get rid of him asap

Agreed. :)

Obviously, Construction should be on the research path before Music. Should I then head for Music, or head toward Macemen to help with war?

Agreed. :)

Obviously, Construction should be on the research path before Music. Should I then head for Music, or head toward Macemen to help with war?
go for music, I don't think you'll get too much trouble from the holy roman empire.

He is protective so cats would be nice. That said why are you building the pantheon in bombay and not in dheli? Don't plan to use dheli to produce great artists at all? that would be a huge waste given that it is the best spot for main GA farm on the map... If you do go along with this get those riverside forests around dheli turned into riverside cottages asap eh? Why is agra building a library? first build in pretty much all cities should be either a granary or a worker(granary to size 2 then swich to worker and whip it if you have a 3 food source is better than just building a worker from scratch). Why do you need a library in that city anyways?

OK, I played the next round last night. I am hoping to have the update later this afternoon/evening, but that's not a promise. Have some things going on and I may not get to it that quickly.

Round Five: 70 AD to 775 AD

Most of this round was spent building an army as I prepare to invade Charlie's lands, along with some infrastructure. Delhi and Bombay concentrated on buildings, while the rest did either units or buildings. Those cities, other than Delhi and Bombay, will focus on units as I prepare for war.

I got Mathematics, Construction and Music during the round, and threw in Hunting (for Spearmen, as Charlie has Chariots) and Meditation, so I could build Monasteries for extra culture and science.

I have been putting Theatres in as many cities as possible, so that some can run Artists when they can.

I got two Great Prophets and two Great Artists during this round (one GA came from being the first to Music). Both GAs settled in Delhi and Bombay (one each) and the GPs build Holy Shrines.

One thing Charlie did do is build a city atop Iron to the south of my lands. There's no food anywhere, but there is forest. I'm planning to open the next round by attacking that city, as that's the only place he's settled a city near Iron. When my exploring units were able to get in spots to see his cities, I only saw Archers and Chariots, so I wonder if he has any metal at all. There is Iron near his lands, but it's in desert and not in his cultural borders when I last checked. So if I can take that city on top of the Iron first, that will help.

Also, stealing Workers will help, as I expect some to come that way to build roads to that Iron city he has.

Wonders that have been built were Parthenon in Bombay and Apostolic Palace in Delhi. Bombay is now building Sistine Chapel.

My Espionage points are accumulating to the point that I am starting to get visibility in Charlie's cities. And he'a also teching very slowly... clearly he's been REXing but it's crippling his economy.

I will add that I was trying to play this round while watching the MLB playoffs, so at times I didn't whip when I should have. So the lesson to be learned... don't play a round when watching sports. ;)

Seriously, I'll be looking to play the next round Monday so I can concentrate on what needs to be done. Whipping will be important as I build additional units to supplement my army and defend any captured cities.

I've included a map of what is known about Charlie's territory. There is at least one city I think should be razed, given that I see a better city site than where it's at. And the saved game is also attached.

Thoughts on where to go on the tech path? I've chosen Metal Casting and am thinking of heading to Machinery, then Engineering for Trebs. Is there a better path to follow?

OK, I did get to play the next round Monday, but the update is going to be delayed a bit. Had something run longer tonight than expected and won't have time to update tonight.

I am hoping to get the update done during my lunch break tomorrow. Apologies for the delay and for neglecting the thread.

Round Six: 775 AD to 1240 AD

This round was mostly spent cutting down Charlie to size. My warfare tactics weren't always where they should have been. Part of that was my fault, as I didn't always have enough catapults when I was attacking cites. But the other part was that I was going in blind, given that I never was able to get Open Borders signed, due to Charlie always being annoyed with me.

At any rate, I declared war in 920 AD by stealing one of Charlie's workers as it was building a road to Pisa. As for Pisa itself, I never had to worry about it, as the citizens revolted and it fell under my contro the very next turnl. I disbanded it... it wasn't a particularly good location.

However, Charlie did manage to snag a barbarian city that had access to Iron, so he did pop up a few Axemen and Swordsmen. Ironically, though, he never tried sending forces my way much of the time... usually it was a Chariot, which was easily finished off by my Spearmen, or it was a Catapult. A few times they attacked my stack, but didn't do much damage as I had a Medic Warrior accompanying the stack. And at one point, Charlie send a single Cat to attack _one_ of my Swordsman. I though the AI was supposed to be improved when it came to warfare?

So anyway, in 940 AD, I completed Sistine Chapel in Bombay. And then it was on to my stack hanging around Augsburg, which was in a good location after all... in fact it's about where I had it on my first dotmap. The city fell to me in 970 AD.

I got another Great Artist in 1040 AD from Bombay, where he settled.

It was then that I started moving forward into Charlie's territory, uncovering land that was unknown to me at that point. I uncovered Nuremberg in 1030 AD, but I had to do a lot of bombarding with my Cats because its cultural defense was so high. But it did fall to me in 1060 AD. I decided to keep it... although it was settled on flood plains, it would get Corn and Cow in its BFC, whereas if it got razed and resettled 1N, it would lose the Cow.

A few turns later, I came upon Vienna, a city surrounded by mined hills, but none of them had a resource. I captured that city and razed it... I thought that Aachen, the Holy Roman Empire capital, would be nearby, so I figured it was best to not keep Vienna. Taking Vienna down led to my first Great General, who I carefully guided to my stack so I could turn my Medic Warrior into a Medic III unit.

Ultimately, I came upon Aachen, and again, it took time for me to strip away the cultural defenses, meaning Charlie was able to whip quite a few units, including a Cat that damaged my stack a bit. But luck was on my side, as I was able to use my stack to whittle down his troops, one by one, and the Buddhist Holy City fell to me. Unfortunately, there was not much else in the city... Charlie didn't build a wonder there.

I stopped at this point. I've attached the map of the HRE territory I've captured, along with the saved game.

The tech path this round took me to Engineering, meaning I added Machinery along the way. I'm thinking of going for Alphabet next, and here is why... I'm planning to capture Prague and claim its Gems, then take Ulm as well. At that point, I want to see if I can get some techs from Charlie in exchange for peace. He has Calendar, for instance, and I'm hoping I can pry it from his hands.

While I could just finish off Charlie now, he's got quite a few cities left and war weariness is becoming a problem in my cities. Also, my economy is taking a hit, so I'm wondering if I should take a moment to rebuild... once I take Prague, I should have really crippled Charlie, as he isn't building Cottages and doesn't have much left that will help him with commerce. Then once I've rebuilt, I can finish him off.

The fact I never got Calendar meant I lost out on Massoleum of Massoulos, which was a bit disappointing. Another civ built the Great Library as well, but that was less of a loss.

Back to techs... Currency and Civil Service are definitely on the research list now, then I may just head straight for Liberalism. After that, I can concentrate on getting to Optics and find out who else is out there.

But as far as my next thought for tech goes... should I try Alphabet, or go with Currency instead and keep the war effort going? Thoughts?

Looking at the cities I've captured so far, and the cities I'm about to capture, any thoughts on which one might be a candidate for the third cultural city? At this point, Nuremberg might be the best... the Corn and Cows will give it plenty of food to run a couple of Artists and there's still forest that can be chopped for anything I need there and the land can be cottaged up. Augsburg looks like a GP Farm candidate once I can get irrigation to it.

Really, though, I'm not sure that Aachen is the best candidate for the third cultural city. All it has is Cow for food and not much else. I really don't think a city with just one food resource will work as a cultural city.

going blind????
didn't you build a spy?

About aachen,
- it has enough food to grow, and
- it is filled with commerce bonuses dye + gems!
- it is a holy city!

If you can't get this city to legendary you don't deserve to win :p

can't build spies without alphabet, cabert :p. with one trade partner who's guaranteed not to trade, alphabet's not such a priority, so i can see how that happens!

i have a toothache, so all i can do is respond to kermit, not think of my own stuff ;)

can't build spies without alphabet, cabert :p. with one trade partner who's guaranteed not to trade, alphabet's not such a priority, so i can see how that happens!

i have a toothache, so all i can do is respond to kermit, not think of my own stuff ;)
you know I could change my avatar, and no one would understand why you call me kermit ;)?
I saw later that he didn't have alphabet.
Am I too tired to think or is alphabet required for drama?
It's still quite a strong priority.

but kermit is so cool!

the BtS tree goes writing -> aesthetics -> drama, alphabet isn't even an or pre-req. i'm thinking about my tooth too much to make meaningful comments, but not too much to play an easy noble game and therefore have the pedia handy *giggle*. thankfully the dentist has agreed to help me this afternoon :dance:

but kermit is so cool!

the BtS tree goes writing -> aesthetics -> drama, alphabet isn't even an or pre-req. i'm thinking about my tooth too much to make meaningful comments, but not too much to play an easy noble game and therefore have the pedia handy *giggle*. thankfully the dentist has agreed to help me this afternoon :dance:

I'm playing too much vanilla these days:blush: .
I guess you could win without going for alphabet at all now :lol: .

Alphabet isn't required for drama, but yes, in retrospect, I should have remembered Spies. :hammer2:

OK, so we'll take a closer look at Aachen. It should look better once I get those other two nearby cities.

As for when the next round comes, that depends on when I can squeeze it in. No way do I dare attempt to play when the World Series is on, especially when the Rockies are involved.

Although last night, I probably could have played the round during the final innings when the game was already over :p

alpha is all weird now. in vanilla you can build a spaceship without alphabet. but in BtS you can't, since you need it for printing press.

alpha is all weird now. in vanilla you can build a spaceship without alphabet. but in BtS you can't, since you need it for printing press.
Which made alphabet weird in vanilla, I think. What good are printing press and writing down physical formulas for space research if you don't have characters to make yourself understandable?

And were would you and I be without the alphabet? :eek: (and the then inability to throw sarcastic remarks around ;))

Round Seven: 1240 AD to 1415 AD

A short round... the rounds will probably be like this until I finish off Charlie for good... and the way things are going, that should happen in the next round. ;)

I opened the round with Engineering acquired, so I decided to build Notre Dame in Bombay. With war weariness kicking in, I could use the happiness boost when my next war against Charlie would take place.

Next war, you ask? Well, the war I first declared was still going, but as I said earlier, the plan was to ultimately make peace with Charlie so I could rebuild before finishing him off.

First things first, though. Prague fell easily enough in 1280 AD and I kept it. It would claim a Gems resources in its BFC and with the Corn there as well, it could serve as another GP farm.

My next Great Person was another Great Prophet. There was definitely a use for him, as with the Buddhist holy city under my control, I could now build the Buddhist holy shrine.

Got Alphabet in 1310 AD. Before I approached Charlie, though, I took down Ulm to the south of Aachen. I razed that city... all it would get was Corn and there were no seafood resources nearby, so I deemed it unnecessary to keep.

After that, I sued for peace with Charlie, and he gave me every tech he had that I did not have... that included Calendar, Archery and Horseback Riding. Calendar was the tech I really wanted, as it allowed me to build Plantations on the Incense resources in my borders, as well as take advantage of the Dye around Aachen.

I ended up getting yet another Great Prophet and I used him for a Golden Age. That really proved useful, as it allowed me to run my science slider at 60 percent and get techs such as Currency and Civil Service quicker. When I got CS, I switched to Bureaucracy to further help my economy. What also helped was I got a random event in which I got extra research toward CS from city ruins in my borders.

Notre Dame was completed in Bombay in 1340 AD.

I've attached the saved game, but don't have a map, as there really isn't much else to show you, except that Charlie founded a couple of junk cities with Settlers he had stockpiled. There's that land with mined hills, which sure looks like he'll use to found another city.

So now the time has come to finish Charlie off (and for those who load up the saved game, notice how long it will take him to get Feudalism... not that I'm going to wait that long to finish him, mind you ;) ). Once that's done, I'll switch to Caste System and start running Artists like crazy. I've got at least three cities that can serve as GP Farms and most of my other cities will have enough food to run at least two Artists (and most of my cities are already doing that, so I can get more GAs).

I started University of Sankore in Aachen... we'll see if I can get it in time. The Wonder will help with culture. Aachen will likely be the home for most Great Artists that I will settle.

As for techs, it's on to Liberalism, then I'll head to Optics so I can find out who else is out there. From there, I'll head to Banking so I can run Mercantilism.

One question for everybody: Once Charlie is gone, should I run Pacifism? It might be worth it to get more Great Artists generated and speed up the finish to the Cultural victory.

Round Seven: 1240 AD to 1415 AD


I started University of Sankore in Aachen... we'll see if I can get it in time. The Wonder will help with culture. Aachen will likely be the home for most Great Artists that I will settle.

As for techs, it's on to Liberalism, then I'll head to Optics so I can find out who else is out there. From there, I'll head to Banking so I can run Mercantilism.

One question for everybody: Once Charlie is gone, should I run Pacifism? It might be worth it to get more Great Artists generated and speed up the finish to the Cultural victory.

you should run orgrel for a time, to build all the temples you need and to be able to build the missionaries you need in "secondary" cities where you don't need monasteries

Round Seven: 1420 AD to 1620 AD

So this round was spent claiming the continent for myself. I immediately started the next round by declaring war on Charlie, with the intention of finishing him off.

And the very next turn, Florence fell to me. I kept it... it would serve well once cottaged up and I could run some Artists as well.

I ended up getting my next Great Person, a Great Artist, and sent him to Aachen to settle. I got two more Great Artists this round as well and settled them in Aachen too. That will help get Aachen generating culture.

As would the University of Sankore, which I completed during the round as well.

Meanwhile, I captured Mainz in 1455 AD. This city was kept as well and I decided to leave up the cottages that were there.

In 1470 AD, that Barb city that Charlie captured fell to me and I kept that one as well. By this point, my cultural borders were expanding so that I wouldn't need to found too many more cities and the ones that I took from Charlie would serve me well enough. And with four religions to spread, that allows me to put four Cathedrals in each of my culture cities.

Strassburg fell in 1490 AD and I razed it... it wouldn't serve much purpose, given that there were no seafood resources it would claim.

I ended up getting my second Great General during this conquest... I have him waiting in my military production city. What shall I use him for? Waiting until I can build a Military Academy doesn't make much sense, I don't think, so I may just settle him there as a military instructor. Thoughts?

In the meantime, one of the civs on the other continent found me first... it's Zara Yaqob. And he's the guy who has been churning out the techs. I ended up swapping Philosophy with him for Literature, Compass and his world map. And as it turns out, he's got Nationalism! Still, during the round, I never got word about him building Taj Mahal.

A random event happened that would prove beneficial, as I learned of a songwriter who composed a ballad that gained popularity. I chose the second option to pay 38 gold to get 450 additional culture points in Delhi. I really wanted the third option... I mean, I _really_ _wanted_ the third option, which would give me 250 culture points in every city for 130 gold, but I needed to have Radio to pick that option. Ah well.

In 1520 AD, the last of Charlie's cities fell and the Holy Roman Empire was history.

A few turns after that, I switched to Caste System and started running Artists everywhere I could. Aachen is the only city that isn't running an Artist, and that's because it's still growing, and probably won't be able to run an Artist until I get Mercantilism.

In 1615 AD, I won the Liberalism race. Although Zara had Nationalism, I went with that. I would have gone with Astronomy had I been able to select it, but I was mostly concerned with getting to Liberalism first and didn't want to risk Zara doing so. He's a tech monster right now.

And then a turn after this, I met another civ on the other continent, Hammurabi. Since Zara had ended up with Education, I decided it was best to deal it to Hammurabi, for which I got Feudalism, Optics, 70 gold and his world map. It may not have been the best decision, but I needed to catch up with Zara in tech and I didn't want to trade with him any more than I had to.

I stopped the round here, and I have attached the map of my continent... and as you can see, Monty is alone on a continet to the south of me. I really don't get how the Hemispheres setting with selecting two continents generated like this again. Then again, it's probably good that Monty is off by himself, as he'll certainly be lagging in tech, but he's also the founder of Hinduism, so he'll be none too happy with me once I establish contact with him.

On the other continent, both Zara and Hammurabi have converted to Islam, and the others there are Julius Caesar (I know it's him because his name came up when news came that he got a Great General) and Sitting Bull. It appears as though Julius, who founded Taoism, and Sitting Bull are at war with each other.

So what I'll be doing soon enough is getting a Caravel out to make contact with Julius and Sitting Bull, and then I can find out if I can get anything from them in terms of tech. I'm thinking I may just ignore Monty until he finds me first.

As far as the tech path goes, I have Constitution selected, which will lead to Representation (something that would certainly come in useful with the number of Artists I'm running) and the unique India buidling, the Massoleum. Or would Astronomy be a better choice? My cities are nearing their health caps and it might be nice to trade resources with the neighbors on the other continent.

Next round, my culture cities will concentrate on getting their Cathedrals completed. I'm not sure if I can get Taj Mahal before Zara does... it could go in Delhi, which I really want to use to generate Artists now instead of Prophets (and the chances of getting Artists are higher now, and should stay that way as I continue running Caste System).

Saved game is also attached. Time is certainly coming to think about when is the best time to turn up the Culture slider.

IMHO, time to turn the slider as already come!
can't remember if you have the pyramids or not, but going for democracy certainly is worth your representation beakers, if only for the SoL.
My suggestion :
- switch to representation/caste system/mercantilism (do you have banking?if not it's cheaper than democracy and gives you a good boost) + org rel while you need to build cathedrals then pacifism
- turn the slider to 100% culture
- if you run mercantilism, run merchants in all your secondary cities
- build wealth in secondary city if you need more money
- don't neglect your military. I don't mean in techs, i mean in numbers. 10 archers are certainly better at detering an attack than 2. 10 catapults can turn a stack of cavalry into knight fodder.
- you're spiritual, so if need be you can switch to slavery every now and then and whip all temples in a row. Loads of unhappiness, but with 10 happies from the slider+happies from the temples, you have room for quite a lot ;). + temples are cheap for you so it's only a 1 pop whip most of the time. (this is for secondary cities, you need your population in your 3 big ones)

OK, so it looks like this is what I'll do, based on Cabert's suggestion:

* Tech to Democracy and chase SoL.
* Try to trade for Guilds and Banking to get Mercantilism (Zara is the only one who has both, but I would suspect Hammurabi will get them soon, and he's the better bet for trading at this point).
* Once I can switch to Representation and Mercantilism, turn the culture slider up to 100 percent.
* Spread religions and pump out the Temples (the good news is Delhi already has two Cathedrals, Bombay has one and is doing its second, and Aachen is building its first... and with four religions under my control, it could mean as much as four Cathedrals in each city).

And the rest... well, what Cabert said. ;)

EDIT: And I don't have the Pyramids, so I'll have to tech to Constitution to get Representation. With any luck, I can trade Liberalism to get other techs, including Guilds and/or Banking.

OK, I'm trying to get the next round finished... I have two more turns to go, but my computer is having issues and I'm having trouble figuring out what the problem is. CIV does tend to crash on my computer after playing it for an extended period, but now it's doing so after five minutes, and I did not have this problem with the last challenge I did.

So... I'm going to try to get those final couple of turns played, but if CIV and my computer keep having issues, I'll have to address that before I can finish.

Bear with me... some of us are still on dialup and trying to figure out the best way to get the latest patch. ;)

Round Nine: 1620 AD to 1732 AD

Apologies for the delay... was busy Saturday and then dealt with a little illness the past couple of days.

The first turn into the round, I got one of those random events that allows you the option of increasing culture in a city. Unfortunately, though, the city chosen was not one of the three cultural cities, which was unfortunate. Apparently the "running with the bulls" event requires cows in a city's BFC and it would have been nice to have had that for Aachen.

Also, I ended up getting the circumnavigation bonus without having to send out a single ship, thanks to being able to acquire world maps from the other civs. See, it can be done. :D

In 1630 AD, another random event led to a source of Deer appearing in forested Tundra, and that helped raise the health caps in my cities a little bit.

Julius Caesar and Sitting Bull both eventually established contact with me. Neither one was willing to do much trading.

Hammurabi, on the other hand, was easier to deal with, as I was able to get Guilds and Banking from him, both which would help the economy and allow for Mercantilism.

As far as my tech path went, I headed to Democracy, but Zara got there first. He's really becoming a tech fiend... he's not at war with anybody, he's best buds with Hammurabi, and it's been Julius and Sitting Bull who have been at each other's throats throughout the round.

I did get a few more Great Artists generated and they have all been settled in Aachen.

The saved game is attached. I've hit the point at which I am definitely turning the culture slider up to 100 percent. The question I ask is this...

I have two Great Person farms that are running a lot of Artists. I've already switched to Merchants in most of my other cities, except the three culture cities and the two GP farms. Should I run Merchants there instead?

I need to get a Granary rebuilt in Aachen once its Cathedral is completed... should I switch to Slavery temporarily and whip that out so I can get stated on the Granary? FYI, it got destroyed thanks to a random event, along with a Courthouse, which I quickly rebuilt.

In fact, I'm wondering if I should switch to Slavery for a few turns so I can get buildings whipped out before turning up the Culture slider to 100 percent. I could use Grocers and Banks to help with the economy so I won't run in the red for too long with the Culture slider up to 100 percent.

a few things :
- you should not settle your great artists anymore. keep them for culture bombing your cities into legendary. Each turn, you should check how many artists you would need for a victory = count how many of them are required in each wanabee legendary city. Note that it doesn't matter if you reach legendary status through the bombing are after adding one turn's culture, you can only win at the end of your turn anyway.
- what civics are you running? You now should be running mercantilism+representation+caste system+pacifism or FR if the diplomatic situation is tense.
- running slavery for a granary is a bit, hum, futile?

The civics I'm running are the ones you mentioned, with OR but not pacifism. And, of course, Free Speech.

I don't think diplomacy will be much of a problem until Monty pokes out his Caravels and contacts me. Although I'm sure the other civs have and he's probably annoyed with several of them, so Monty may not be an issue.

OK, I'm almost finished with the game. I've been taking it slow given the issues with my computer. I'll get the final update done as soon as I can.

Round 10: 1732 AD to 1906 AD

Not much to report other than I did achieve the Cultural victory. Bombay was the first to achieve Legendary Culture, then Delhi followed a couple turns later. It took longer to get Aachen to that point, though, for several reasons.

First of all, I had to turn the slider down at certain points because I was running so far into the red. I was able to get some Great Merchants generated to get some cash from foreign trade routes, and after the last of the infrastructure was built, I set cities to accumulate Wealth. That allowed me to put the culture slider back to 100 percent.

It was a long gap between Delhi reaching Legendary Culture, and then Aachen following suit, but it eventually did happen in 1906 AD.

The saved game is attached from the turn before it finished. Worth noting was my GNP was far ahead of everybody else, meaning I could have probably caught up in the tech race and gone for a Space Race if I wanted to. Of course, that wasn't the purpose of the challenge. ;)

I ended up with the top five cities... Bombay, Delhi and Aachen, of course, were the top three, but Nuremberg was fourth and Vijayanagara was fifth. Nuremberg got there on population alone.

And as for the final score... ended up at 17606. Not as good as my last Cultural victory, but respectable.

Looking at this particular challenge, I believed these were a few things I should have done a better job with.

* Utilizing the Philsophical trait. I didn't use that to its maximum benefit, both in terms of running enough specialists and in terms of picking which cities should house certain Wonders that generate particular Great People. Looking back, Bombay should have housed the Great Prophet wonders with the Great Artist wonders going to Delhi. That would have allowed me to generate more Great Artists, as Bombay couldn't run that many specialists.

* I still need to work on the usage of Slavery to its maximum benefit. As I've said before, whipping is my biggest problem when it comes to my Civ tactics.

* I need to get out of my habit of not wanting to build on resources, unless it's a resource that needs to be mined to achieve it. That alone may have allowed me to get the Cultural victory sooner.

* A minor point, but I probably could have used the Spiritual trait better... as in switching to Slavery long enough to whip out culture generating buildings (particularly in Aachen, although that city had a slow growth rate, even with a Granary) then switching back to Caste System.

* I forgot to skip my tendency to build Libraries for generating culture early and going to Theatres instead once I had Drama.

With all that being said, I really do hope that, if my next challenge is on Hemispheres, that I actually get two continents instead of three when I pick two (and I swear I selected two continents). Of course, in this game, it wouldn't have helped much, given if my hemisphere had been one continent, I would have had both Charlie and Monty as neighbors... true, I could have just adopted one religion to make that guy my friend and take it out the other, but then I run into the problem of not being able to trade for tech. And in this game, it made a difference as Zara was one of my opponents, and his Organized trait meant he teched quite well.

Computer issues aside, I enjoyed this challenge and I'll be looking at starting the other one fairly soon. I'll just need to check into a Photobucket account as Imageshack has become a pain as far as uploading images. Or maybe I need to stop using dialup. ;)

I think you did well, seeing how slow the beginning was.
Generating great merchants instead of great artists isn't good.

Why?
because it allows you to get at best 3000 gold, while a great artist is 4000 culture on normal speed.
+ it allows you to run the cultural slider higher al right, but the added culture is not added in the city you need it, it's added all around the place.
At best (very unlikely best), it's 1/3 where you need it.
Meaning that a great merchant is worth less than 1/4 of a great artist!
Did you build wealth in all your non wanabee cultural cities?

Yes, I did run Wealth in all cities once infrastructure was done. I may have to modify that tactic a bit, to running Wealth sooner, except in the three cultural cities when other buildings are needed.

Looking back on this one, I probably could have ran Wealth sooner in Bombay and Delhi, as both ended up with three Cathedrals. Aachen was the only one of the three cities that had to keep doing buildings (it ended up with Hermitage as well).

You did suggest running merchants, and a couple of cities were able to run quite a few of them. Nuremberg was one in particular... it had lots of food and floodplains, so it ended up being a very good city. I probably should have modified my two GP farm cities so they both ran Artists, as one switched to Merchants.

At any rate, another thread coming up. Want to talk up who people think should be the next leader to use for this challenge.

The start looked fun, so I gave it a try as well.

I hit on a lucky break with a hut popping a scout. I was able to map almost all the contenent before putting down a city.

I went up the religion tree, with polytheism, masonry, monotheism first. Unhappily, i missed both religions by one turn. I ignored fishing because I wanted to work on stonehenge and marble-wonders.

My capitol build queue was something like: worker, warrior, settler, Stonehenge, Oracle, T of A, library, parthenon, Great Library.

I founded my second city down by the stone, on the river for the levee later. Both stone and marble with two cities. I decided to pursue a 3 or 4 city strategy, so I left a gap between my second city on the capitol. The second city build was warrior, warrior, settler, then Pyramids, I think.

I left another gap for the third city, also stayed on the river. Looking eastward, didn't really show any new kinds of resources that were one city size away, so I decided to stay with 3 cities.

No copper. :( I got lucky with iron close by to the south. Still only need 3 cities. 4 would let me build two cathedrals per religion, but I decided to work on wonders first.

Took CoL with the oracle and got my first religion. Researched Theology and bulbed Divine Right. Missed philosophy somehow. I had intended to found 5 religions, only got 3. Not good for my 3 cities/3 cathedrals strategy.

I forgot I was Spiritual, so I forgot to change up my civics promptly. I figured it out, when I was asked to convert religions and complied. Duh!

I missed the apostolic by 2-3 turns. The production bonus would have been nice.

Made a beeline for libralism, then grabbed gunpowder for some protection. Then democracy, then a beeline for mass media. After MM, researched rifling, then switched from 100% science to 100% culture. Used the extra cash from my religions and democracy to buy improvements.

I'm not used to epic speed and started neglecting my defence and diplo at 50k, changing production to culture. Oops. Need 75k. Thought Riflemen might not keep me safe. started buying upgrades to old units. Built some wonders I didn't need.

I gave everyone tribute and they left me alone, allowing me my 3 city culture victory. Hail Ivan the terrible. Not the best score, but at least it was a quick game.

I decided to try this out as well but since its noble i tried a 3CC.
Founded 4 religions Charly got 2 and monty got the other so the large continent was devoid of religion untill I converted them all to Islam via carvels (I Found poly mono theo and Islam btw). I was the tech leader until I decided to go all culture after discovering liberalism, then signed a defensive pact with Zara who was VERY powerfull. I was very surprised that charly or Monty didn't DOW on me. End date 1871 ok but not great.