A couple major bugs have been introduced into the game from patch v3.13. The MP sync errors in particular will have people sitting at the edge of their seats waiting for verification that a new patch is forthcoming. I think most of us can understand the difficulty in posting an ETA for a patch. But I also think that most of us think it quite reasonable for there to be an announcement that another patch is in the works, if indeed there is. An announcement, minus an ETA, would be very appreciated by the CivCom I think. Would it be possible for you to make such an announcement?

The Poll question should read:
Civers: Do you think it reasonable for Firaxis to announce any intentions towards a future patch?

No, considering how many people acted, they should not announce anything on this forum.

I voted for yes, since I cannot agree with Warpstorm.

A reasonable, meaningful communication with the fanbase should be in the repertoire of a company like Firaxis/Take2 or any other company with such active fans.

No, considering how many people acted, they should not announce anything on this forum. Agreed. Too many here gave Alexman a hard time so I seriously doubt anyone else from Firaxis will make the same mistake.

I used to visit a forum for a Mac gaming website. They were a rather small company, and you were able to talk to the developers who made the games that website hosted. I thought this was rather neat since they knew exactly how their games worked and what issues might come out of them, and if something couldn't be solved they were able to explain why a solution wouldn't work. Another unrelated advantage of being a small company was that you were able to hire beta testers from the site without fear of something getting leaked. (The reward for being a beta tester was that you got a free copy of the game you were testing after it was released.)

From visiting that site and seeing how they did things over there, it sometimes makes me think that 2K and Firaxis are approaching the release of these games and their patches the entirely wrong way.

The problem is that Alexman was posting as himself and not as a Firaxis company representative. It's difficult for people to separate the difference and so a lot of feelings directed towards the company came out on him instead. It was completely unfair to Alex, but perhaps inevitable regardless.
What Firaxis should learn is that they need to designate someone with experience in customer relations (probably a product manager) to spend an hour or two a week participating with the community. Most of the hard feelings would dissipate if people thought that someone was listening and keeping them up to date, and it is simply good business to stay in touch with the people who buy the product.

They don't need to come here... just need to say it in their site or in the Greek Forum :p

I need to agree with Cabat Jet .... I think that Firaxis aproached things like a phant in a dish store about all the BtS stuff...

No, considering how many people acted, they should not announce anything on this forum.

It doesn't matter how people reacted to him. 2K/Firaxis have a responsibility to their fans. If the fans demand news on patches, then that's what 2K/Firaxis need to deliver, regardless of the (possibly histrionic) consequences.

If they don't, then the fans may move on to a different franchise. I doubt 2K/Firaxis want that.

If you're really serious about wanting something, then don't complain or beg to Firaxis; go above their heads, directly to 2K Games. When enough people demand that a developer blog be posted, 2K Games will make it happen. Until then, Firaxis can simply ignore it.

No, considering how many people acted, they should not announce anything on this forum.

That wasn't really the question, as far as I can see.

They should make a follow-up patch, and yes they should announce it. No biggie where they choose to announce it. A message at their website would seem sufficient, if having direct contact with a segment of their customers is deemed unnecessary.

Agreed. Too many here gave Alexman a hard time so I seriously doubt anyone else from Firaxis will make the same mistake.

What I don't get how it takes Firaxis months and months to release a patch, supposedly because of all the stringent 'testing' involved, yet when it does finally get released it's the most bugged abortion you could ever think of, with bugs so blatantly obvious that most are discovered within about 20 minutes of actual game play. The kicker of course is that most of these stuffups are able to be fixed by fans within a day or two, not months that it will most likely take for any kind of official fix. It speaks volumes for the absolute incompetence of Firaxis when it comes to supporting their product in a reasonable and timely manner!

What I don't get how it takes Firaxis months and months to release a patch, supposedly because of all the stringent 'testing' involved, yet when it does finally get released it's the most bugged abortion you could ever think of, with bugs so blatantly obvious that most are discovered within about 20 minutes of actual game play. The kicker of course is that most of these stuffups are able to be fixed by fans within a day or two, not months that it will most likely take for any kind of official fix. It speaks volumes for the absolute incompetence of Firaxis when it comes to supporting their product in a reasonable and timely manner!

Look at the job openings at Firaxis. It's telling.

Producer, multiple programmers, etc.

It speaks volumes for the absolute incompetence of Firaxis when it comes to supporting their product in a reasonable and timely manner! Yet I thank Firaxis for designing civ4 so fans like Bhruic and Solver could patched the game unofficially instead have to wait months for the official patch.

The problem is a new patch (ex, 3.26) will have a lot of bugs. Again, again, more! I think Firaxis can't handle these bugs. OUT OF BRAINS!

MOST BUGGY GAME EVER!

They should post an announcement on their site.

No, considering how many people acted, they should not announce anything on this forum.I agree that things got real sour after an ETA was announced and then was passed without much further comment (btw some of that sourness went much deeper than alexmans post.. that was just a straw that broke the camels back.. for some anyway). But at this point even just an acknowledgment of further patching would go along way towards mending this rift between Firaxis and some of their irritated fans. No ETA just acknowledgment that a patch is in the works. It would be great if that happened here at CFC, but at the very least there should be an announcement at the official website. Then fans will share it around and the CivCom will be made aware.

What happened with Alexman exactly?

He got flamed, so he left and stopped posting. Simple really.
Wether the flaming was deserved or not is not important - only the consequences of the actions are.

It's funny.. When I was a kid, if you didn't get what you paid for and you were unsatisfied, you were OBLIGATED to complain to the company and the company was OBLIGATED to listen to your complaints if they wanted to keep a successful company (remember, 'customers first?').. Now you get punished for complaining and/or get insulted by kiddies who think it's not 'c000l' to complain/keep companies in check.

Even assuming you were actually "obligated"... Were you obligated to do so in a 3rd party venue? Were you obligated to take out a newspaper ad, for example, decrying the company? If you saw someone who worked at the company relaxing at the bar, were you obligated to attack them? Or were you simply obligated to take it up with the company themselves.

These forums are not run by Firaxis. They are not Firaxis/Take Two property. While some Firaxis members do post here (or did), they don't do so as Firaxis representitives. Therefore this is not the proper venue to "complain". Either email Firaxis/Take Two directly, or write them a letter, call them, whatever you wish. But attacking them here is not the proper behaviour.

Bh

It's funny.. When I was a kid, if you didn't get what you paid for and you were unsatisfied, you were OBLIGATED to complain to the company and the company was OBLIGATED to listen to your complaints if they wanted to keep a successful company (remember, 'customers first?').. Now you get punished for complaining and/or get insulted by kiddies who probably didn't even pay for the game..
Agreed.

Solution:

(1) A really great patch that actually fixes problems rather than creates new ones.

(2) A scenario that sends factions to Mars based on philosophies, a new supermodern tech tree, mindworms, and instead of alien invaders -- folks from the "mother planet" trying to reassert their rights?

Something value added... just a thought

(A)ttacking them here is not the proper behaviour.

BhAgreed as well... gotta hand it to the crew though. I mean, where else would you find a community willing to fix all these problems on their own (Solver for instance)?

Still... BTS is a case-in-point on why not to release buggy code even if pressured by the gaming community to do so.

If/when Civ V comes out (or another add-on), I will be extremely hesitant to recommend or purchase it, if for any other reason than I don't know if I will be wasting my money or my time trying to get the game to run.

Some thoughts.

I think Firaxis' main problem is that they are not paying as much attention to their flagship product as they should. I mean, come on! If you were the owner of a gaming company wouldn't you kill for the opportunity to capitalize on a game as legendary as Civilization? They really blew it in that regard, in my opinion.

I'm not really concerned with bugs in the final release game, every game has at least a few bugs when it's released. What's really angering me right now is that every time they try to fix something, they break something else in the process, and, in effect, these patches keep piling on to the disappointment caused by BtS and even vanilla Civ IV as a whole. That's what's getting on my nerves, and if they keep doing crap like this they're going to loose the developing rights to the Civilization series.

Even assuming you were actually "obligated"... Were you obligated to do so in a 3rd party venue?

Yes, because Firaxis operates no venue of their own and CFC and Poly are known to have direct contact with Firaxis. By default, Firaxis has agreed that Poly and CFC _are_ their direct representative websites.

So the obligation to post that Firaxis released a buggy patch falls to CFC and Poly.

By default? You can't make something a direct representative of something else "by default". Especially since Firaxis does have a website. They may lack a forum, but a forum is not a necessity to report bugs, or general dissatisfaction. They have email addresses. That would be the way to directly contact them.

Bh

Since most of the problems have been easily fixable by the community- no harm no foul. That said, Firaxis should get a wag of the finger for how BTS has been handled so far...

Agreed.

Solution:

(1) A really great patch that actually fixes problems rather than creates new ones.

(2) A scenario that sends factions to Mars based on philosophies, a new supermodern tech tree, mindworms, and instead of alien invaders -- folks from the "mother planet" trying to reassert their rights?

Something value added... just a thought

:huh:

What does this has to do with getting what you paid for? I didn't think that "a scenario that sends factions to Mars based on philosophies, a new supermodern tech tree, mindworms, and instead of alien invaders -- folks from the 'mother planet' trying to reassert their rights" was among Beyond the Sword's advertized features.

I haven't been following the whole customer relations scene, but I think that attacking a single poster for trying to inform the community is pretty irresponsible. That'll learn him to try and be helpful.

I think a small patch that fixes MP, and a few bugs is a reasonable request. I'm sure they could have something to that effect out in a week or less if they really wanted it.

And let's face it. If you use Bh's patch single player is perfectly playable.

What does this has to do with getting what you paid for?
Compensation for the fan base because they did *not* get what they paid for (i.e. a working add-on), and repairing the Firaxis image...

Is it necessary? Probably not. Is something like this a good public relations move? Probably so...

Of course, if BTS and all the patches worked swimmingly, then no need to toss a bone to the fan base. No need to do it now either, but there's little question players are dissatisfied with how buggy BTS seems to be.

It's funny.. When I was a kid, if you didn't get what you paid for and you were unsatisfied, you were OBLIGATED to complain to the company and the company was OBLIGATED to listen to your complaints if they wanted to keep a successful company (remember, 'customers first?').. Now you get punished for complaining and/or get insulted by kiddies who think it's not 'c000l' to complain/keep companies in check.

I guess we grew up at around the same time! :) If you think about it, there are really only a small handful of posters who consistently defend Firaxis' behavior at every opportunity. They tend not to give an inch in terms of rationalizing everything Firaxis does. There's always some reason, some excuse why Firaxis can't get it right, do it on time and/or communicate effectively about it.

Why is this small band so unwilling to criticize Firaxis not one bit? One can only speculate. Of course, it could be they honestly believe that Firaxis can do no wrong. But, since everybody's human and Firaxis/Take2 have had more than their share of public problems, it's unlikely anyone could reasonably find their behavior above reproach every single time. I suspect it's more likely some hidden motivation which colors their view. Maybe they own stock in Take2 or perhaps one or more of them dreams of following in Alex' footsteps by moving from a helpful part of the posting community into a paying job at Firaxis.

But those of us customers who criticize Firaxis' approach to patching and communicating have every right to do so and to do so in a public forum such as this.

Guess I misunderstood the poll. I thought the question was whether or not a new patch would be nice, and my answer to that is: yes. Firaxis is under no obligation to announce (least of all on this forum) that a new patch is in the works.

I must say, in most cases if a product works in a way that is unacceptable to me, I definitely would complain. However, if that product is a mere retail purchase with an MSRP of less than $30.00, in most cases, I would simply take the product back and ask for my money back. In fact, I did exactly that with many games that were unacceptable to me -- Birth of the Federation really sticks out in my mind. That sucker went back to the store after one week of trying to enjoy it.

Point is, if you're really dissatisfied with the product, ask for your money back and offer to surrender the DVD-ROMs to the manufacturer. Or, just sell it on eBay. Or, even better, try to help fix it yourself -- Civ is good in that you can work 'under the hood' on it to some extent, and some very generous individuals such as Solver and Bhuric are doing just that for their own benefit as well as the community's. Maybe it's just the age I grew up in, but if something is not working correctly, I try to fix it instead of just sitting around complaining.

Is the product perfect? No. But it's good enough for me -- especially with both the 3.13 patch and the 'unofficial' patch by Bhuric, otherwise I wouldn't still be playing it. And it is good enough for a lot of other people, otherwise they wouldn't be playing it.

Why is this small band so unwilling to criticize Firaxis not one bit? Count me in this small number. I'm a big supporter to both Firaxis and Stardock. Just look at what Firaxis did with civ4 especially BTS shows me they did listen to their fans and tries to give us what we ask for.

Count me in this small number. I'm a big supporter to both Firaxis and Stardock. Just look at what Firaxis did with civ4 especially BTS shows me they did listen to their fans and tries to give us what we ask for.

Unless of course we ask for a timely patch that actually fixes the problems :lol:

Unless of course we ask for a timely patch that actually fixes the problems :lol: Then when we do get what we ask for it cause other problems.

I must say, in most cases if a product works in a way that is unacceptable to me, I definitely would complain. However, if that product is a mere retail purchase with an MSRP of less than $30.00, in most cases, I would simply take the product back and ask for my money back.

There's an important distinction here. I've said more than once that I think BtS is a great game, worth every penny and gives me hours of enjoyment. But here we're just discussing patches and the patching process. I'm not going to return a game I think is great (bugs and all) because the patching process sucks. OTOH, it makes sense to discuss the issues with other fanatics with the knowledge that Firaxis checks in on this (and other) boards, so bugs might get fixed.

There's an important distinction here. I've said more than once that I think BtS is a great game, worth every penny and gives me hours of enjoyment. But here we're just discussing patches and the patching process. I'm not going to return a game I think is great (bugs and all) because the patching process sucks. OTOH, it makes sense to discuss the issues with other fanatics with the knowledge that Firaxis checks in on this (and other) boards, so bugs might get fixed.

This is exactly right. It's plainly obvious their testing procedure is almost nonexistant, so if we WEREN'T crying and moaning about the bugs they might never be fully realised and therefore never fixed. This latest patch would have been great, if only SOMEONE had of actually played it for a few hours first to verify that everything worked as intended.

Even assuming you were actually "obligated"... Were you obligated to do so in a 3rd party venue? Were you obligated to take out a newspaper ad, for example, decrying the company? If you saw someone who worked at the company relaxing at the bar, were you obligated to attack them? Or were you simply obligated to take it up with the company themselves.

These forums are not run by Firaxis. They are not Firaxis/Take Two property. While some Firaxis members do post here (or did), they don't do so as Firaxis representitives. Therefore this is not the proper venue to "complain". Either email Firaxis/Take Two directly, or write them a letter, call them, whatever you wish. But attacking them here is not the proper behaviour.

Bh

hear hear.....or is it here here?

But those of us customers who criticize Firaxis' approach to patching and communicating have every right to do so and to do so in a public forum such as this.


And what about the rights of those sick of reading these posts by the usual suspects over and over?

You may note that I said there would be bugs within the patch and there is.

This isn't console gaming.

Is their beta testing solid? Not recently. It seems they lack manpower....where are their offices?? :)

Is their beta testing solid? Not recently. It seems they lack manpower....where are their offices?? :)

Nothing to do with manpower. Half the bugs could have been discovered within an hour of playing. It's clearly not tested AT ALL.

Nothing to do with manpower. Half the bugs could have been discovered within an hour of playing. It's clearly not tested AT ALL.

or 5 turns of multiplayer testing.

2-5 minutes.

Asking for 5 minutes of testing multiplayer code is apparently attacking Firaxis.

I'll say this: I won't buy another Firaxis product at full retail again. I'll wait until it's in the discount bin.

Other game companies I purchase from also release buggy products, but I buy anyway because I know that the company will patch it as quickly as they can once issues come to light and also communicate with the customer and say, "Wow. We totally torked that one. ETA on a patch is a week or two."

Yea, the patch really has seemed to mess with the MP gameplay - I really hope that the patch has.. a patch

Nothing to do with manpower. Half the bugs could have been discovered within an hour of playing. It's clearly not tested AT ALL.

I've played over 20 hours of as-shiped Beyond the Sword and at least an hour of version 3.13 and haven't come across so much as a single bug.

or 5 turns of multiplayer testing.

2-5 minutes.

Asking for 5 minutes of testing multiplayer code is apparently attacking Firaxis.
It was stated before the patch was released that one reason why the patch was delayed was the multiplayer issue. With so many here so impatience I wonder if they release the patch before they had the chance to correct this problem. They may plan to fix the multiplayer soon. One advantage of them releasing the patch early is you got a lot more people running the patch to find the bugs a lot faster.
I've notice that Alexman has visit here pretty much daily since the patch was released.

I've played over 20 hours of as-shiped Beyond the Sword and at least an hour of version 3.13 and haven't come across so much as a single bug.

Ahh. You must be one of their testers!

Try mp - The drops are as common as.. drops in bts

Firaxis should definitly release another patch. Though, a lot of the people here seem to be pretty spoiled when it comes to what they deem a bugged game. Go play Roller Coaster Tycoon 3, and then tell me that Civ IV is "the buggiest game ever." ;D

Another patch is necessary.

But given the attitude of people here, who confuse what they ARE owed (a decent BTS patch - 3.13 is a mess enough that I'm not planning to upgrade to it from my vanilla install, which I've been lucky with it seemsl) with what they aren't owed (any pre-release information of any sort whatsoever about any patch), and act like ungrateful little jerks to people who gives them the later, I'd say work on it in secret and release only if and when it's done.

At best, note on the webiste that further patches will be upcoming.

Then when we do get what we ask for it cause other problems.
So now instead of crashing the game the Civilopedia turns the terrain map into a technicolor mess.

Count me in this small number. I'm a big supporter to both Firaxis and Stardock. Just look at what Firaxis did with civ4 especially BTS shows me they did listen to their fans and tries to give us what we ask for.

I agree with your opinion that BtS is in itself a great game but that is not quite the point here.

Imagine buying a brand spanking new ferrari - worth every dollar you paid and in perfect working condition. And then you find out there's some device on the engine which limits the speed to no more than 50km/hr. This is like Bts Multiplayer at the moment. All the game is there, with its great game concepts etc., but it's just frustrating people that MP is giving so many issues and that the game can't be enjoyed the way it's supposed to be.

The single player problems are not very big on the lists of most. It is the crippling mp problems that most are complaining about.

I've played over 20 hours of as-shiped Beyond the Sword and at least an hour of version 3.13 and haven't come across so much as a single bug.

Try playing some MP - that's where the real problems are. Even in games where you can get around the OOS error on starting the game, they keep recurring perhaps every 20 turns or so. It really does get tedious when one or two players have to manually exit the game and then rejoin every time. Entire game crashes are a tad less frequent but I have seen at least a few already in the several games I have started.

Of course it is ok to use unoffical patches for single player bug fixes, but we don't get the same luxury for the MP games.


Now it seems people have gone far off topic in this thread, as is usual with risky topics like this.

I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect Firaxis to inform us whether a patch is in the works or not. That is not difficult at all and doesn't give any incentive for flaming of any kind. Don't dare give us an ETA though. Besides, we'd be intelligent enough to give our own personal ETA if we know what bugs are being fixed.

If it happens that 3.13 was the last patch, we would appreciate it if we were told, so we could start comitting ourselves to the unofficial patches such as Bhruic's brilliant work.

I bet half the posters here did not read the original post.

I think it would be entirely reasonable to expect Firaxis to inform us whether a patch is in the works or not. That is not difficult at all and doesn't give any incentive for flaming of any kind. Don't dare give us an ETA though.

If it happens that 3.13 was the last patch, we would appreciate it if we were told, so we could start comitting ourselves to the unofficial patches such as Bhruic's brilliant work.Quoted for Truth! That is exactly what I was getting at in the OP.

It is frustrating for an MP group anxiously awaiting a patch that may never come, or is so far out that there was no need to wait for it. PBEMs, PTBS, and GOTM are all community events which I've been a part of which have been delayed by the patching process. Indefinite delays for which we could not plan around due to lack of communication on the part of Firaxis. I've also seen Mods affected by this. And that blasted MAF issue and the Firaxian lack of communication about it was a serious problem. Take2's customer service even denied the existence of the MAF. A little communication from Firaxis regarding the patches would have saved our CivCom a great deal of delay and frustration.

I respect and was very appreciative of alexman's posting of the changelog for the upcoming patch. But I do think he should have updated that post on a weekly basis with a one liner such as.. "Sorry folks the patch will be delayed but we are still working on it". That would have taken much of the heat out of that thread. But hey he's human just like the rest of us and I hold no grudge against him. In fact I respect him for what he did do. However, Firaxis as an entity should be held accountable by their fans for the lack of communication regarding the fixing of the game they sold us. Firaxis is great about incorporating fan feedback into the game and tweaking it beyond mere bug fixing. But that should not absolve them of a fundamental responsibility to keep their consumers informed. Beyond common courtesy it just makes good business sense.

But for me it goes a little deeper than that... (see next post)

Back in the Civ3 days I was very impressed at the Firaxian involvement here. The Firaxians felt like one of us, and I thought that was very cool. It mattered little to me that Civ3 didn't ship with MP and the editor as advertised. Firaxis was communicating with us and I had complete trust that they would make things right. I saw them as part of our unique and passionate Civing Community and the relationship between gamer and developer transcended the normal consumer vs producer paradigm. After Warlords that feeling began to dwindle somewhat. I felt cheated when they stopped patching Warlords despite the unresolved issues (Vassals chief among them). But what really did it for me was that they didn't tell us what was going on. I kept waiting for a patch which never came. And indeed what some posters here had predicted, had actually come true.. Warlords would be 'patched' by BTS. Fine, I am a Civ addict and the pre-ordering of a Civ title was a given for me (or was). But then Warlords Vassals Still had problems in BTS.. and there are Still problems with them post patch. But I could deal with that just like I dealt with Civ3's belated MP and editor if only Firaxis would communicate with us better.

I can't help but wonder that the same thing which happened with Warlords will happen with BTS. That one day the patching will stop without a word while the game is still in need of repair. Firaxia feels distant to me now, and the feeling I once had for the game developer being just "one of the guys" is diminishing. This saddens me. And it makes me a little concerned for the future of the Civ franchise. Firaxis has a great resource in its fanatical fans. I found this to be unique and priceless. Though I think Stardock is rapidly overtaking this niche which, in my mind, used to be pwned solely by Firaxis and Civ. I think it would be very wise for Firaxis to become more involved with their fans here at CFC and Apolyton. Fans can be quite forgiving and understanding when they think they matter. But when they feel they are little more than dollar signs, they can become fatuously unreasonable. A little communication would go a looooong way.

^^I have to agree on that... If he are going to speak the truth, most of the today's Firaxis programmers were civ fans in the past, and some of them jumped directly from the CFC and Apolyton to the Firaxis drawing bench ( Jon Shafer, Blake,.... ) and even the Firaxis page directs people to the forums about technical issues.... If Firaxis start to alienate people ( intencionally or not ,that is not the point ), they are shooting their own feet in terms of troubleshooting and about the game mechanics itself ( some glitches and mechanics flaws can only be noticed after some thousand games, and I believe that Firaxis programmers simply don't have time for that ( Revolutions is coming.... )....
Unfortunately the post warlords fuzz that happened here ( most of it because a lot of people felt that Firaxis didn't hear them in some particular regard ( Poland, HRE, the Vassals mechanics ( that is still seriously bugged ( BtS new mechanics of espionage and corps added more unreasonable results to a already buggy implementation )),....) soured things a lot between Firaxis and the forums. And the alexman post about the changes didn't helped either.... ( not the post itself, but the fact that the only visible search of feedback from the part of Firaxis was a unofficial post from a programmer that had been a forum member before that....).
I think the best Firaxis could do would be opening a mirc forum or even a thread or forum in the forums to gather suggestions, with someone acting as a PR in it.... and maybe a "thank you guys" in the manual they sent with BtS would had helped too ( they thanked the fans in the vanilla one, why not in the BtS? A big part of the x-packs content is code made by or inspired in fans work ( the most famous example is the Blake's Better AI mod, that became a core part of Warlords 2.08 and 2.13 and of BtS ) )

I voted no, if there are MAJOR bugs as you call them we don't need any announcement, they will fix them period. But I have experienced no OOS problems, and I multiplayer (DC) with my wife every day...

Hear hear, White Elk! But I'd like to ask, what does MAF stand for?

Memory Allocation Failure.

i thought the mp problem had been sorted?

And what about the rights of those sick of reading these posts by the usual suspects over and over?


Hmmm.... maybe if you PM'd a mod, they could stop the "usual suspects" from forcing you to open and read threads you find troublesome. I know I hate it when anonymous posters compel me to read their horrible, horrible posts. Speak up for your rights and demand satisfaction!



:rolleyes:

My informer inside Firaxis just told me that they fired the cleaning lady who was in charge of assembling the patch on a part-time basis after her regular work of cleaning the offices. So there won't be another patch, sorry folks :(

Also, you might be pleased to know that Firaxis has indeed a large department solely occupied with game testing. The only problem is they outsourced this to Bangladesh to save money and the testers don't have any computers. So they just read the machine code and process it in their brains which makes for rather slow testing.

i thought the mp problem had been sorted?

What multiplayer problem? We don't have one :)

I voted no, if there are MAJOR bugs as you call them we don't need any announcement, they will fix them period.Well thats what I would have assumed pre-Warlords. That game received two patches. Second one came a year after the first and included an incomplete user mod (Blakes AI) which drastically changed the AI behavior. But it was incomplete, and even by the time that the patch was made available, Blake had already resolved some of the issues with that latest build of his. A build for which he admitted was buggy. Yet the game was never patched further, nor did Firaxis give ANY information regarding further patching (or the lack thereof as the case was).

Furthermore a significant portion of the CivCom couldn't play on maps larger than standard without experiencing game ending MAFs. Naturally this also adversely affected the bigger MODs. There were PTBS issues and much more. But Firaxis stayed silent and left it to BTS to sort it all out. It would have been nice to have at least known that they would no longer support Warlords. Mod development and the organizing of MP games would have benefited from that knowledge. As would have everyone else who was anxiously awaiting those fixes.

Why should we simply trust that BTS won't go the same route as Warlords did? The only way we can KNOW one way or the other would be for Firaxis to tell us. And that is why I ask Firaxis if a new patch is on the way; and is why I ask our CivCom if they think it reasonable for Firaxis to announce any intentions towards a future patch

Why should we simply trust that BTS won't go the same route as Warlords did?

I'm afraid that it will. Undoubtedly all their best employees are working on Revolutions because it's such a lucrative cash cow. What do they have to gain from devoting sufficient resources to BtS at this point? All the reviews are already written, and they can afford to screw up a lot with BtS and suffer very little financial penalty. Yeah, they'll take a reputation hit, but I doubt it will amount to much since they're already ahead of the curve. Of course the actual *people* at Firaxis care, but their hands are tied because, like all corporations, they are ultimately driven by the bottom line. Watch the movie called "The Corporation" if you don't believe me :).

Let's just be thankful that we have such a devoted fan base with people like Bhruic and Solver and co. to fix bugs-- and that Firaxis itself made the game moddable enough to allow us to fix their bugs.

I agree with everything you've said jray, except that I think Firaxis has more to lose than a "very little financial penalty" if they do with BTS as they did with Warlords. I for one will most definitely not pre-order the next Civ title if they do that. And from what I have read on these forums I will not be alone. I will wait and watch the forums and then if that new release has problems I will wait the long wait and see what the patch does. If that goes as these have gone then I will not purchase the game and will likely turn my back on the series.

Already I have begun to immerse myself into the realm of RTS and FPS games. There once was a time when Civ was the only computer game I played (well besides a little chess and poker along with some occasional Diablo and AOE). I even pre-ordered Age of Empires III the same day as Civ4 but didn't start playing it till after the final Warlords patch. Now I'm getting into Battlefield 2, Diablo 2 and back into AOE. And I will soon explore Galactic Civilizations which might altogether replace my need to Civ. And my Warlords experiance, along with reading fan forums, kept me from purchasing Pirates! and Railroad Tycoons. And I was gonna gift a copy of Railroads to my father but didn't want to gift him a bundle of frustration. I have also stopped gifting, and have stopped trying to get my non-civing friends into the world of Civ. And like I said earlier I know I am not alone in all of this. I think Firaxis has a bit more to lose than just a "very little financial penalty".


But your right, I am quite thankful for both the modding community and for Firaxis making this game so moddable. I do forsee many more hours of playing Ryhes mod and I very much look forward to future versions of FfH2.. along with some other mods still in development. So if the modders can continue to work around the issues of BTS, then I do know that no matter what Firaxis does, the game was still worth the investment. :)

Hmmm.... maybe if you PM'd a mod, they could stop the "usual suspects" from forcing you to open and read threads you find troublesome. I know I hate it when anonymous posters compel me to read their horrible, horrible posts. Speak up for your rights and demand satisfaction!



:rolleyes:


Just for that I'm not eating at Chik Fillet today! ;)

Just for that I'm not eating at Chik Fillet today! ;)

I should hope not! I don't think your shift supervisor at Mickey D's would be happy to see you supporting the competition.

;) :p

It's too bad that alexman stopped posting because of flaming on these boards. It would be nice if we all learned and practiced the difference between Flaming vs. Criticizing vs. Constructive Feedback. Flaming and criticizing are not necessary. Providing constructive feedback is healthy. The difference between these 3 are now what you say but how you say it.

It is easy to slip into criticizing and flaming - I know i have in the past and i always regret it. I didn't always intend to but when I re-read my post, I realize that I came off that way.

I believe that we get much farther with Constructive Feedback than we do with flaming or criticizing.

I hope this post is viewed as Constructive feedback versus criticizing. :)

i'd say they should keep quiet about any new patch in the works, simply to quell the people who acted immature. They should release a change list hte day before the patch is released.

Firaxis could always put news on their gimpy as hell official site instead of having employees leak info on forums, where they can be grilled/flamed/fried/loved/whatever. Firaxis' lack of communication is pretty pathetic in this day and age, especially considering how popular Civ is and how much money they make off of it. It's not like their some one-off dev that loses money and folds - and STILL has a better site and better communication.

I voted for yes, since I cannot agree with Warpstorm.


At least we know where we stand ;)

I'm liking how Valve has been patching their products lately. Silently and frequently. Every few days you get a small patch to TF2 with no warning.

My informer inside Firaxis just told me that they fired the cleaning lady who was in charge of assembling the patch on a part-time basis after her regular work of cleaning the offices. So there won't be another patch, sorry folks :(

Also, you might be pleased to know that Firaxis has indeed a large department solely occupied with game testing. The only problem is they outsourced this to Bangladesh to save money and the testers don't have any computers. So they just read the machine code and process it in their brains which makes for rather slow testing.
Let me guess, the code is in English isn't it?

People like IronCrown are why the rest of us are not going to get any more pre-release announcements and information.

Lets all thank IronCrown.

I should hope not! I don't think your shift supervisor at Mickey D's would be happy to see you supporting the competition.

;) :p

funny bugger.

:goodjob:

He got flamed, so he left and stopped posting. Simple really. Wether the flaming was deserved or not is not important

That abysmal Firaxis guy got the reaction he deserved. No wonder he run away with the tail between his legs. :lol:

Warned! - Flaming

- only the consequences of the actions are (important).

That is disputable. On this matter, people are broadly divided into two camps:

CONSEQUENTIALISTS say that actions should be evaluated only in terms of their outcomes.

DEONTOLOGISTS object that the rightness of an action is not merely determined by its consequences.

My two cents: deontologism is less controversial than consequentialism.

I agree that things got real sour after an ETA was announced and then was passed without much further comment (btw some of that sourness went much deeper than alexmans post.. that was just a straw that broke the camels back.. for some anyway). But at this point even just an acknowledgment of further patching would go along way towards mending this rift between Firaxis and some of their irritated fans. No ETA just acknowledgment that a patch is in the works. It would be great if that happened here at CFC, but at the very least there should be an announcement at the official website. Then fans will share it around and the CivCom will be made aware.

I agree. It is not rude, ungrateful or somehow villainous to express one's desire for an official announcement that a patch to deal with the new (few but annoying) bugs will be forthcoming, that they are working on it.

Even assuming you were actually "obligated"... Were you obligated to do so in a 3rd party venue? Were you obligated to take out a newspaper ad, for example, decrying the company? If you saw someone who worked at the company relaxing at the bar, were you obligated to attack them? Or were you simply obligated to take it up with the company themselves.

These forums are not run by Firaxis. They are not Firaxis/Take Two property. While some Firaxis members do post here (or did), they don't do so as Firaxis representitives. Therefore this is not the proper venue to "complain". Either email Firaxis/Take Two directly, or write them a letter, call them, whatever you wish. But attacking them here is not the proper behaviour.

Bh

With all respect, I hope you are not saying that *all* criticism of Firaxis automatically consitutes "attacking them". Of course people at a site dedicated to a certain game are perfectly entitled to voice dissatisfaction with aspects of the game, or with the behaviour of the company producing it.

I'm a late comer to Civ fanatics. But I've had a great time reading the strategies and various threads.


Also had fun castigating those I thought worthy.

But this takes the cake

That abysmal Firaxis guy got the reaction he deserved. No wonder he run away with the tail between his legs.

If this poster had taken the few minutes I took to look at that gent's posts he may have realised that this 'abysmal' person had been faithfully tracking bug reports and taking our save games in to work for some many months.

Dear Reader, I'm not sure which expletive best fits this, so insert your culture's favourite OK?

And what about the rights of those sick of reading these posts by the usual suspects over and over?

You may note that I said there would be bugs within the patch and there is.

This isn't console gaming.

Is their beta testing solid? Not recently. It seems they lack manpower....where are their offices?? :)

I'm begging everybody on my knees: Please don't start another flame war. Please avoid personal attacks and phrases such as "the usual suspects", "a small minority", "fanboys", "whiners", whatever.

I think a new patch would be nice. It obviously wouldn't need to be huge like the recent one. I also think it would be nice with an announcement that such a patch will be forthcoming at some point. I also think it would make sheer business sense for Firaxis not to "punish" the posters at CFC for their "ingratitude" by snubbing this site. One doesn't antagonize one's customers! Above all, I do think they should employ someone to post updates about what's going on and so forth at their own website. Finally, since Firaxis don't have a forum of their own, they have to read CIC and Apolyton for feedback, and I'm pretty sure they do.

i'd say they should keep quiet about any new patch in the works, simply to quell the people who acted immature. They should release a change list hte day before the patch is released.

You mean that Firaxis should punish the blasphemers by maintaining absolute silence? That would be quite immature. :rolleyes:

Well, speak of the devil...

I'm begging everybody on my knees: Please don't start another flame war. Please avoid personal attacks and phrases such as "the usual suspects", "a small minority", "fanboys", "whiners", whatever.

What he said.

What he said.

If I seemed to make a personal attack, I'm sorry. But I do think the suggestion that Firaxis ought to somehow punish posters by maintaining complete silence is quite bizarre.

If I seemed to make a personal attack, I'm sorry. But I do think the suggestion that Fitaxis ought to somehow punish posters by maintaining complete silence is quite bizarre.

:confused:

I was trying to support you.

Usually , when I do the sarcasm people notice. This time, not so much... ;)

I agree with everything you've said jray, except that I think Firaxis has more to lose than a "very little financial penalty" if they do with BTS as they did with Warlords. I for one will most definitely not pre-order the next Civ title if they do that. And from what I have read on these forums I will not be alone.
I already am not likely to buy CIv 5 on release considering 4's track record. And the only way to do anything about it is for people to not go running for Civ titles as soon as they hit the shelves like they are their next hit of morphine.
What jray said is the sad truth from the eyes of T2 and always has been since they gained the title. Support has been shabby at best for this entire incarnation.

And I will soon explore Galactic Civilizations which might altogether replace my need to Civ.
I would highly recommend checking out Gal Civ 2. :goodjob: SOmetimes, it will get me in the mood to play Civ. :p But my problem with that game is I can't keep myself out of the shipyard. So when I have been designing ships for 3-5 hours, I want to play a TBS that wont distract me. :lol:

I have also stopped gifting, and have stopped trying to get my non-civing friends into the world of Civ. And like I said earlier I know I am not alone in all of this. I think Firaxis has a bit more to lose than just a "very little financial penalty".
I have recently been trying to get my non-civing friends into Civ. I have had them get Civ 3 to sort of pre-play it. They have also downloaded the demo to 4. They bought Civ 3 first because of the price and are liking it. When 4 came out, I told them not to buy because of multiple reasons. I was having them wait for the Civ4/Warlords combo. But by the time that had came out, BTS had been announced, so I told them to hold off for that and just get either Vanilla+BTS, or Gold+BTS hoever they wanted to do it. But now, here I sit saying hold on man, it isn't really patched yet. Now we don't even discuss it that much.
I bought BTS at full price on purpose because I complained so much about Vanilla and Warlords quality I wanted to make sure I supported a quality product. But now, although it is a good expansion, it seems a little rediculous.

But your right, I am quite thankful for both the modding community and for Firaxis making this game so moddable. I do forsee many more hours of playing Ryhes mod and I very much look forward to future versions of FfH2.. along with some other mods still in development. So if the modders can continue to work around the issues of BTS, then I do know that no matter what Firaxis does, the game was still worth the investment. :)

Well put. :goodjob:
The moddability is really starting to seem to 'save' (for lack of a better word) this version for me. I am happy that Firaxis is allowing such open modding in the game.

I find it odd though that Firaxis doesn't put any announcements on their website for Civ 4. Then if fans want to complain on fansites, that's fine I guess - but the official announcements shouldn't be on fansites IMO. It's like trying to feed a hungry rabid dog by walking in the pen to hand him the steak when you should just throw it into the cage.

Warned! - Inappropriate Language

:confused:

I was trying to support you.

Usually , when I do the sarcasm people notice. This time, not so much... ;)

Oops! Well, I appealed to everyone to stay cool (and still do), but then I couldn't help reacting at what I simply regard as an amazing attitude by some posters (who are no doubt gentlemen to the bone and really decent citizens I'd be proud to shake the hands of). I think it is perfectly legitimate to voice dissatisfaction with a game, or with the performance of its publishers. It's not as if we all belong to a church dedicated to the worship of Firaxis Games. We simply wish a great game could be made even greater.

I think it is perfectly legitimate to voice dissatisfaction with a game, or with the performance of its publishers.

We agree. :coffee:

It's because most companies, nay business processes, don't do transperancy real well.

The companies (like the Aforementioned Gal Civ Lot) that do are in the minority. It's simply hard to get people to dot the i's and cross the t's.

While I understand all this and can empathise, Personally I'd like to take a stick to the testers at Firaxis right now...but I daresay they don't speak my language. :D

This is now a different issue. There is no reference point, or catalyst, such as Alexman said something.

If "we" (a big if) chased him away previously, or he left on his own accord, in either case, there does not seem to be any way to get to ATTN Firaxis...or can it be done? They (Firaxis) might just read our info is about it...Right?

You mean that Firaxis should punish the blasphemers by maintaining absolute silence? That would be quite immature. :rolleyes:

dont bite the hand that feeds you ;)

and if you do, do it in a pragmatic cute way.

LOL, I just read IronCrown's post. Is that why Alexman left? I hope not, that was pretty funny. I would think Firaxis has a better sense of humor than that.

Ah, nvm.
That abysmal Firaxis guy got the reaction he deserved. No wonder he run away with the tail between his legs.
Seems like it got pretty nasty.

dont bite the hand that feeds you ;)

and if you do, do it in a pragmatic cute way.

Well you started. This point-of-view was bandied about even by some luminaries here. Without writing pages and pages, how about "The hand took the food away".

Oops! Well, I appealed to everyone to stay cool (and still do), but then I couldn't help reacting at what I simply regard as an amazing attitude by some posters (who are no doubt gentlemen to the bone and really decent citizens I'd be proud to shake the hands of). I think it is perfectly legitimate to voice dissatisfaction with a game, or with the performance of its publishers. It's not as if we all belong to a church dedicated to the worship of Firaxis Games. We simply wish a great game could be made even greater.

Sticky that statement. It speaks volumes.

I think some people ate the hand. :lol:

If Alexman was the only conduit for providing concrete bug reports (note that this was a not a recognised business process, rather just 'cream' in our favour) then I am guessing we're back to sending in bug reports to their support page and crossing fingers.

People keep referring to the guy as "Firaxis" , he just worked there.

Although I've seen the odd abberation, most people that work at a company are not really on board with their corporate values and decision making. They simply work there.

Blaming an employee for the actions/lack of action/silence of the company makes about as much sense as terrorists blowing up civilians on the thinking that all citizens of democracies are equally to blame!

I think some people ate the hand. :lol:

Touché

(perhaps perhaps)

I think some people ate the hand. :lol:

Even though Firaxis/Take2 is biting the hands that feed them, my hands are still attached as I believe are most customers'. I guess some people wish they weren't. Then we couldn't be typing. :lol:

If Alexman was the only conduit for providing concrete bug reports (note that this was a not a recognised business process, rather just 'cream' in our favour) then I am guessing we're back to sending in bug reports to their support page and crossing fingers.

People keep referring to the guy as "Firaxis" , he just worked there.

Blaming an employee for the actions/lack of action/silence of the company makes about as much sense as terrorists blowing up civilians on the thinking that all citizens of democracies are equally to blame!

The analogy is "You cannot shout Fire in a crowded movie theater" or you cannot say "Bomb on an airplane" :) or maybe you can...and then there might be a reaction to it...

The analogy is "You cannot shout Fire in a crowded movie theater" or you cannot say "Bomb on an airplane" :) or maybe you can...and then there might be a reaction to it...

???? because people are foolish, and thus blameless when they act as a mob?


Seems it will be this guys fault whatever happens. Poor bastard!

Anyways. I'm unsubbing from the thread. Have fun!

Would a mod please close this, the infantile attitudes of those here have done enough damage.

Would a mod please close this, the infantile attitudes of those here have done enough damage.

Pardon me? :confused:

I don't see any reason to close a valid thread. Discussing other fan's views on if Firaxis should release a statement on further news of a patch is a valid enough conversation topic in my book.

I don't see many infantile attitudes in here. Most I am reading are valid consumer opinions. SOme are satyr sure, but I personally found IronCrown's post quite funny as I am sure people at Firaxis would find funny too. (I know I would even if I worked for Firaxis.) I don't know if IronCorwn was trying to be hateful or not but "take it with a grain of salt", and it doesn't matter. It is funny regardless then.

No matter what is said in this thread is not going to change the minds of the subject in question. They will either release news or they won't. So long as the forum rules apply, I see no reason to close it.

If Alexman was the only conduit for providing concrete bug reports (note that this was a not a recognised business process, rather just 'cream' in our favour) then I am guessing we're back to sending in bug reports to their support page and crossing fingers.

People keep referring to the guy as "Firaxis" , he just worked there.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, when I write Firaxis, I mean Firaxis and not some particular employee of theirs. I can't speak for others, but I suspect their usage is the same.

After all, this thread is about how nice it would be if Firaxis were working on a new patch, and also about how nice it would be if they notified their customers of the fact without necessarily mentioning any definite date for its publication.

I'm liking how Valve has been patching their products lately. Silently and frequently. Every few days you get a small patch to TF2 with no warning.

I wish this were the case. But since we all know it isn't due to the size of T2 and the amount of titles it has out right now, I think a public response is reasonable.

I believe the only quick patches (as in a few days time) the game has received is from 1.08 to 1.09.

I don't see any reason to close a valid thread. Discussing other fan's views on if Firaxis should release a statement on further news of a patch is a valid enough conversation topic in my book.

I agree. At the risk of sounding grumpy, let me add that the subject line for this thread clearly informs people as to its content, so those who don't like such discussions can easily choose to read other threads. They could start a thread called "Don't Bite the Hand That Feeds You"; I promise I wouldn't call for it being padlocked.

I've also seen Mods affected by this. And that blasted MAF issue and the Firaxian lack of communication about it was a serious problem. Take2's customer service even denied the existence of the MAF. A little communication from Firaxis regarding the patches would have saved our CivCom a great deal of delay and frustration.

To be fair even Brad at Galciv2 (as well as other developers) noted that he just understood this problem a few months ago. Windows 32-bit will only allocate 2gb of memory to each program period. (Unless you take from the other 2gb that goes to window's kernel when using a 64-bit OP). So the problem is with the 2gb limit. If I load up ViSa mod with A 18civ Huge map, it's size starts out at 1.6 Gb of memory. Less than 400 mb left until you get MAF. That's twice the size of a normal huge,18 civ game.

I wouldn't either but threads started to debate the validity of other threads tend to have a master lock on them after only a few posts. ;)

I'm liking how Valve has been patching their products lately. Silently and frequently. Every few days you get a small patch to TF2 with no warning.

Um, you realize that TF2 is still in beta, right? It's much easier to update a beta product than a commercially released one.

Bh

dont bite the hand that feeds you ;)

and if you do, do it in a pragmatic cute way.

Exactly, Take2 should stop insulting their customers who pay their salaries, get a Community Relations professional, and communicate with their fans.

Firaxis isn't immune to bankruptcy, no matter what they think.

Every Civ-fan over the age of 20 owned at LEAST one SSI game back in the day, and they died a horrible death regardless.

And even Civ itself couldn't save Microprose.

Um, you realize that TF2 is still in beta, right? It's much easier to update a beta product than a commercially released one.


Yes, I do, and this is how they work on their released titles also (and it will be released officially on Wednesday).

SSI game? Like the AD&D goldbox series (which are buried somewhere in the closet where game boxes end up in)?

Anyway, has anyone here any idea about how WoW forums fare? Yes? No? OK - CFC forums are tame. Of course there's a difference that WoW generates quite a few real (not just egold) coin and there're paid staffers on those forums. Guys who get money for being flamed.. Maybe that's why they can take it.

From my part - I will eventually by Civ 5 as well. I know that already - even without knowing what kind of game it'll be, how many bugs, expansions, when, at what price.. The only question is when I will buy it - pre-order and pay the highest price market can bear? Or wait for eventual gold/platinum/complete/other box that contains all expansions and whatever at pocket change? That's where Firaxis' handling of civ4 era can have an effect. Not on whether I buy it at all.

Um, you realize that TF2 is still in beta, right? It's much easier to update a beta product than a commercially released one.

Bh

Valve making any patches is a shock in the first place.

If Firaxis is making Civilization V (Which is a 95% probability, what with Revolutions and such.) then I'm not going to buy that game until a year after it has been released. It's what I did with vanilla Civ IV, and I was very satisfied by what I received in return: a relatively flawless game with only a few minor bugs here and there. (This would have been patch 1.62.) That way, it's as if Firaxis had actually stuck the game in development for that extra year like it should have been and I don't get stuck with a disappointing product when I buy it.

Judging from Firaxis' reputation with patching that's what I'll have to do. *sigh*

May I point out there is a considerable amount of resentment in the casual MP community concerning the latest patch. Usually when I see OOS errors in games, one or two of the players are quick to note, "It's because of this (insert expletive) new patch!"

The fact is, even the casual gamers are probably dropping like flies now - not just us fanatics - since this patch has been causing massive MP issues.

Unless Firaxis are sensible enough to fix these issues in a timely fashion, they'll be losing many fans. I'm not trying to be melodramatic - I really believe this.

Undoubtedly all their best employees are working on Revolutions because it's such a lucrative cash cow. What do they have to gain from devoting sufficient resources to BtS at this point? All the reviews are already written, and they can afford to screw up a lot with BtS and suffer very little financial penalty. Yeah, they'll take a reputation hit, but I doubt it will amount to much since they're already ahead of the curve. Of course the actual *people* at Firaxis care, but their hands are tied because, like all corporations, they are ultimately driven by the bottom line. Watch the movie called "The Corporation" if you don't believe me :).

Let's just be thankful that we have such a devoted fan base with people like Bhruic and Solver and co. to fix bugs-- and that Firaxis itself made the game moddable enough to allow us to fix their bugs.
(emphasis added by me)

I fear you are right jray. We're all suckers. If only the reviews could be reviewed.

On topic, I still have not seen ANY logical reason for why Firaxis should not divulge whether or not another patch will be in the making. Sometimes it might be clever marketing to keep customers in suspense (actually that's usually potential customers) but it's not a good idea when they're angry.

Many posters on these forums have the courtesy to present very reasonable arguments as for why fixes are necessary and perhaps a bit urgent. Others may take a more insulting approach to demanding fixes. In any case, eventually many of the more patient type will also resort to demands out of desperation. As was pointed out earlier, it's the feeling that requests fall on deaf ears that irritates most of the reasonable posters.

I dunno, compared with other games I have played, firaxis has done better post release support than 90% of the ones that don't include a monthly fee to play. And made the closest game to perfection i've seen in my particular gameplay demands. I can understand the discontent from MP people, as I used to MP a lot. Poor support ruined Rise of nations as a MP game(being a RTS ruined its SP game). While I hope you guys get a patch, it's not likely, find a new game : /, and i'll enjoy my SP masterpiece.

Yes indeed it is. And I think it's not just reasonable, it's a must. The game obviousley has still some major bugs, that NEED to be fixed.
"Civ 3 Rather-not-so-complete" should be a clear indicator for everyone, that there's not that much difference betwenn Firaxis and EA. Sad to see a name like Sid Meier, who always stood for quality, trying to get away as cheap as that. I hope, they learned a bit from that and do a better job for Civ 4/BTS.

Guys, I don't want to put salt on a wound but from the fan relation perspective, it would be useful for some people at fireaxis to learn from Stardock (dev and publisher of Galciv2) how to handle patching process. And communication with their fan-base.

It's really a pity because the work gets done. It just seems way more painful that way.

It is, I should think, entirely reasonable that a company having released a product that is not fully fit for its purpose should give its customers reassurance that it will fix the problem and, with that, to give a rough estimate as to the time this fix will take. It is, perhaps, unreasonable for us to expect the estimated time to be anything other than that - an estimate.

In the meantime SP is OK with Bhruic's patch. Let's hope MP will soon have its equivalent!

Why is it reasonable to give information about fixing the problems?

1) Courtesy
2) Good customer relations
3) Providing a good service

all of which amount to

4) Good business practice!

Or am I mistaken?

Why is it reasonable to give information about fixing the problems?

1) Courtesy
2) Good customer relations
3) Providing a good service

all of which amount to

4) Good business practice!

Or am I mistaken?

Expecting Firaxis/Take2 to make good business decisions doesn't seem like par for their course. :D


At the annual meeting on March 29, 2007, Take-Two investors ousted five of six board members, including the chief executive, Paul Eibeler, who was replaced by Ben Feder[1]

Ryan Brant, former chief executive of Take-Two Interactive Software, pleaded guilty in February 2007 to falsifying business records. He faced up to four years in prison but received a lighter sentence in a plea agreement after agreeing to cooperate with prosecutors.[2]

In 2005, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission alleged in a lawsuit that Brant, with the company's former chief financial officers, Larry Muller and James David Jr., and its head of sales, Robert Blau, inflated revenue in fiscal years 2000 and 2001.

I have a problem with the way the poll is worded. Is it "reasonable" for Firaxis to do this? Well, yes. Is it "reasonable for us to expect Firaxis to do this"? Probably not. "Do you want Firaxis to do this"? That's a simple vote.

Which of these does the poll intend to do? Beats me.

Wodan

I asked that question within the following context (from the OP)... "But I also think that most of us think it quite reasonable for there to be an announcement that another patch is in the works, if indeed there is."

I was asking Firaxis for an 'official' announcement, and wanted to back up my assertion (with the poll) that most of us think that such an announcement would be a reasonable thing for them to do.

Wanting an announcement and expecting Firaxis to give it are different than simply thinking it a reasonable thing for them to do. And finding it reasonable for Firaxis to announce it while taking into consideration the events that transpired after 3.13s unofficial announcement is also a very different question.

I just wanted to demonstrate to Firaxis that we the CivCom
think it reasonable for there to be an official patch announcement.

Hmm, well, I think the wording may have gotten some people to vote No. Certainly, right now there are almost 40% naysayers, and I think Firaxis would take that the wrong way if it were presented to them the way you just described.

In any event, 40% is far from a clear majority. Why do something when almost half of a focus group says no?

Anyway... to be constructive... my suggestion would be to make a new poll with different wording. :)

Wodan

Why do something when almost half of a focus group says no?

How does 21.84% (as on this writing) equal "almost half?" 78.16% saying "yes" seems like a pretty overwhelming majority to me.

Your right, and I have a problem wording things and often labor at it for mixed results. But I think they'll get the point if it actually does come to their attention. Though I think it really wasn't necessary. I just hope that things at Firaxis will change and the bond between gamer and developer will strengthen.


But what do you mean 40%?

I see 78.16% for "Yes indeed!" and 21.84% for "Not really".

My bad... I saw the "39" not the "22". I should pay closer attention. :/

I guess the question at this point is do I still have a point, given 22% (not 39%). Hmm. Maybe. Not sure.

Wodan

Cool then. Thats not the first time I've seen a disparity in what a poster says is a poll result, and that which I see. I've been beginning to wonder if something was amiss.