The Earth 18 civs was one of the most popular scenarios brought by Vanilla Civ : 18 civilizations in a hand made map, with every civ facing diferent chalenges and oportunities ( European civs cramped in a tiny space, with no option except to fight each other or to expand overseas, the Incas cramped between the Pacific and the Andes, the Americans with wide open spaces to the west, like the Russians to the east, etc ) make it a very interesting variation of the normal maps ( especially before BtS, when the map scripts created less than varied maps ).
After our friend Neal had started ( and unfortunately not finished ) 2 games with this map in Warlords, it was suggested than a Open game using this map would be a good idea. So I decided to open a game where to discuss and apply strategies about this particular map. As the scenario exists in all the Civ IV incarnations, players using Vanilla , Warlords of BtS are welcomed to play and share their experiences ( in spite of some buildings ,techs and wonders could make a diference. For a example in vanilla Mali and Egypt were swarmed by barbs because they simply couldn't fill Africa before of barbs start to swarm in strengh. The Great Wall in Warlords and BtS can help a bit with that... )

Because we don't have any kind of bias against any civ, it was choosed the first civ that appears when we load the scenario ( Single Player -> Load a scenario -> Earth 18 civs ), the Egyptians leaded by Hatshepsut ( aka Hatty ) :
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Kingoftheworldstart0000.jpg
Hatty has the War Chariot as UU ( a stronger chariot immune to first strikes enabled by the wheel and horses ( that requires Animal Husbandry ) ), that became more useful with the inclusion of a anti axeman bonus to all chariot type units in Warlords and BtS. In Warlords and in BtS, Hatty also has a UB, the Obelisk, that replaces the monument ( thay in vanilla is called Obelisk :crazyeyes: ) and enables the hiring of two priests, leading to all kind of religious flavour strategies and Great Prophet settling ......

Here is the start:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Start0000.jpg
The touch of a hand made map.... riverside incense floodplain, riverside stone floodplain and riverside marble flooplain :drool: . Of course that so much FP means heavy :yuck: and besides the marble and the stone, no :hammers: in sight....

This are the settings that I am going to use ( BtS 3.13, no Bhruic patch to patch ;) ):http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg
I'll try to post in every 100 turns a small report saying what I did and what happened and I would like to see some others from other players ;) ( of course that you aren't obliged to that.... this for fun ,not a competition ).

First, some thoughts:
I don't play this scenario for a long time ( since Vanilla ), but I do recall that thre are horses nearby ( not sure if in the BFC )... but the nearest civ is Persia , not exactly the better candidate to a chariot rush :lol: . There are a lot of wonder options as well..... the Henge ( good synergy with the UB ), the GW ( no barb problems ), the Pyramids ( early Rep ), Oracle ( do I really need to explain? :D ).... maybe a Obsolete-type strategy may be in hand.
As far as I can remember, there are not good production sites nearby ( the nearest place is in Eastern Anatolia and I'm not sure that we can get there before Cyrus ) so BW may be in hand as well, even if only for pop control...

Oh well, good luck to all, and let the games begin !!! :goodjob:

what difficulty and game speed are you going to play on? It'll probably help if we all play with the same settings. I've never played an earth game but I'll give it a try until my computer dies.

you could rush Saladin instead...

Ramsess II would have been overkill here...:eek:
Rush saladin and musa, conquer Africa, head to the stars.
You don't mind if I play warlords and play at Noble, right?

@shyuhe
Check image on third spoiler ( monarch, epic speed )

@tycoonist

True enough..... I forgot him. But if I can remember well, he has crappy land, not worthing the effort

@Hackapell

Ramesses would be really a overkill here, but this is a Vanilla scenario....
And play what level, speeed and plataform you wish ;)

I will most likely join on this - I have been looking at the Earth map with some joy, just for the "lol Risk" element of it alone is fun. I'll probably play BtS/Prince and see how I fare.

I'm most definatly playing this one with the exact settings: epic/monarch.

marble/stone/wheat ON the floodplains in the initial fatcross :drool:

I've never seen a better start, period, that is once you fix the health problem.

Never played 18-civ earth scenario, really looking forward to this one, great idea rolo :P

France's start is even better IMO. stone, marble, wheat, horses, Iron, coal, AND clams. and its Luis XIV so he's industrious...AND he's cultural. you can flip london before the ADs easy.

Saladin has crappy land, but he almost always founds hinduism so he's worth the rush, because his location can mean it spreads to +40% of the world with nets 50-70GPT from the shrine if you get trade routes set up fast. I find that one fo the most important things is to get a religion set up fast along with the trade routes with the shrine if possible so the trade routes open up as soon as possible meaning your religion spreads as fast as possible. I'll probably play on emperor and just REX all of Africa.

^^I already played 80 turns ( couldn't play more , terribe toothache :gripe: )
and Saladin remained atheistic until Confu spread to them.... but well, in this game Alex founded Buddhism :crazyeye: .... Will see if I am able to play and post today.

the first game I played, Isabella managed somehow to not found Buddhism, but besides that it's almost always been Isabella founds Buddhism and Saladin Hinduism. I'll probably get around to playing it sometime soon. either tomorrow or tuesday

Wouldn't I have been involved in so many projects, RL work and fiancée overload, some minimum sleeping time, I would definitely gave this one a try :lol:

Stone&marble floodplains seems a little bit overkill ;) but what a great epic game would it be.

I'll be sure to book some time for your games in the near future r_rolo!

I've played to 1800BC.

I most often get "the villagers are hostile" from huts, but check this out:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0005-2.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0004-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0003-1.jpg


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0002-1.jpg
my capital, i settled 1NW from start to avoidbeing too unhealthy from the flood plains.

This is my favorite scenario, and my favorite start. Love Egypt.

I'm going to try for a Specialist Economy with three core cities: (1) at the start location, (2) a "Nubia" city south of Thebes near the elephant tile, and (3) near modern-day Israel. For added historical flavor, I will attempt to found Judaism and build the Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library.

My real question is how to best run a SE with Hatty. I see two options there:

1. Representation + Caste System, running scientists (and merchants when necessary). Good news: lots of scientists. Bad news: requires CoL and lacks way to rush production and/or reduce unhappiness.
2. Representation + Slavery, running scientists and priests (using Obelisks and Temples). Good news: uses UB, allows for pop-rushing. Priests provide a good all-around boost to commerce, production, and research (with representation). Bad news: Number of scientist specialists capped at 2.

I'm going to try option 2. I figure every city will be running 5 specialists (2 scientists, 3 priests), so that means a lot of farmed floodplains. I may be able to throw an engineer in there too once I build forges.

Warplans:

1. Ancient period: War Chariot rush Mansa Musa. Mansa has gems, seafood, and cows in his area IIRC, plus Iron and Wine to his NW. More health resources = good for Hatty, who has major health issues.
2. Late Classical period: War Elephants against Saladin, who has seafood and sheep for more health goodness.

Wiping out Saladin and Mansa Musa pretty much guarantees Hatty will own Africa. She just needs to settle near Morocco and Carthage to keep the Europeans out and along the East African coast to keep Persian and India away. The Congo, East Africa, and South Africa all have decent resources.

I suppose the other issue will be choosing a victory condition and deciding whether to stay in a SE.

I'll play and post tonight.

with all those FPs you could probably do a hybrid economy from the get go and just cottage everything. all the excess food should allow you to run enough specialists to counter act unhappiness and health issues.

I've had quite a bit of fun playing this game. Cheers to a great idea.

I played through turn 104 (forgot to pause at 100).

I went AH, then mining--> masonry--> bronze working to turn out chariots as fast as I could. I then rushed Saladin and took Mecca while razing Medina. I then declared on Cyrus as well and took him out before he could hook up horses. At turn 100, I was building the oracle for a CoL slingshot and I had just founded my first city, Memphis near where Jerusalem is. India should fall pretty easily since they're only fielding warriors. It appears that France has picked up most of the wonders though so I'll have to go after them later for their wonders. Egypt is a little overpowered in this scenario but I'll take it... Definitely going for a domination win since this is epic speed.

This game has been extreamly fun so far. I'm playing 3.13 and am going for a wonder-based/settled GP ecomony.

warning: I played through to 190AD, and gave a VERY long and detailed rightup just FYI.


http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0011-2.jpg
I ventured out West to settle my first city, Memphis, ontop of the marble and near the sheep/fish. Since Health is going to be a huge problem, I wanted to secure as many health resources as possible.






http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0012-5.jpg
Since I hadn't connected memphis to my capital, I built the oracle there, and I decided to take Mathematics as my free tech, since I needed an aquedeuct ASAP in Thebes, not the mention the Hanging Gardens. (I forgot to take an ss of completing it tho.)







http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0014-3.jpg
I managed to complete Stonehenge, then Pyramids in Thebes (gotta love nested Priests +2:hammers:, +5:gold:, +3:science: with representation) Pyramids are huge since we're spiritual and have the power to change government civics whimsically.






http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg
I founded my next city to the south to link up the cows/ivory and start developing some floodplain cottages, I even cottaged over the incense tile later since it gives an extra +1:commerce: and I dont need luxury resources atm anyways.





http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0018-3.jpg
Next order of business was the raze a barbarian city to the south. Then settle where I can link the gems/fish. I'm also researching music first to use the free Great Artist for a golden age to kickstart my development (even tho I don't have massallos)



80BC: I have built some more wonders, and decided to impose sanctions on potential rivals, this means war later, but I'm not worried about it. Forcing the AI's to stop trading with each other slows em down.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0021-2.jpghttp://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0020-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0019-1.jpg





190AD: I get a great priest, and am eager to recruit him to work in Thebes.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0023.jpg



However, I am of the Hindu faith, and someone else has already discovered theology:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0022-1.jpg


So I'm going to lightbulb him and build the AP, then later tech divine right and make islam my state religion so one one else can reap the +2:hammers: per temple/monastary. I HATE lightbulbing great people, in most cases I consider it a waste, but this is one of the extreamly rare occasions I will do this. Having +4:hammers: per city and diplo beneifts > +2:hammers:, +5:gold:, +3:science: in one city. But it hurts, with 16 civs theres more competition for building wonders.

My game at turn 100 ( 375 BC )First of all forgive me for some :smoke: moves: half of the turnset I was having terrible toothaches and the other I was under the effect of strong painkillers ( so strong that they discourage people of driving until 8 hours after taking them ). That explains why it took almost 70 turns without noticing that I forgot to research AH ... :hammer2:
I decided to use the stone and marble to make some wonders..... First of all the Henge ( cheap and giving free UB to every city) and the GW ( to launch all the barbs in Africa to Mansa :devil: ). Some civs started knocking on our door:http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Firstcontact0000.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/2ndcontact0000.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Cyrus0000.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Mansa0000.jpg
While that happened I had this event by the first time in BtS ( interesting one )http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0002.jpg
The other options gave the possiblity of extra health in the future, with the expense of :mad: ( 1 in the second and 2 in the third )... Like in Civ IV happiness normally is far more important than health ( and even more in the first tuns, even a temporary happy boost is better than a permanent health one ( the game proved me right: the extra citizen allowed by the extra happiness allowed me to work all the resource tiles in the BFC, that permited me to finish fast a temple, making a temporary hap boost in a permanent one )
After that I started the Oracle and got the standart CoL slingshothttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Civ4ScreenShot0004.jpgConfu auto spread to my capitol and Saladin's one, and I used the remaining missionary to spread the good word to Mansa ( want to keep him friendly until he cutted the jungle and settled some cites ). Later Alex converted to Confu as well... that means that Alex has 3 cities and 2 are confu ( Alex founded Budhism in Athens :eek: ) .Most of the Old world civs are jewish ( founded by Louis) ... No sign of Hindu faith. Maybe Monty?

My plans with Saladin ( use him as a buffer state against EuroAsian threats while I grab the lion share of Africa and finish mansa ) recieved a unexpected help:http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Event20000.jpg Nice.....

Got 2 Gprophets ( settled in Thebes : ATM 4 hammers and 10 coins are more valuable than a shrine ... ) and continue teching towards IW and CS (both needed for ReXing Equatorial Africa ) In the meanwhile I'll try to do a safety belt in the southern shore of the Mediterraneum to prevent european powers of settling Maghrib. I'm using now a paper thin army ( 3 warriors.... ), but that will change soon....

A Map of Egypt in 375 BChttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Egypt375BC0000.jpg
And a city screen of Thebes in the same yearhttp://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x257/r_rolo1/KotW%20Open%20game%20Hatty/Thebes375BC0000.jpg
Good to see that people are having fun... that's the point ;) ( P.S. I also love this map.... but I like more his 1000 AD incarnation. Maybe in another time I'll try to do a open game with it )

I went a much different route than you ;). I researched Pottery from the get go and started spamming cottages in my capital. I also settled 2 cities pretty fast in between building the GW, Oracle, and half of ToA. I also used oracle to get math in the hopes of getting hanging gardens for the health...but got beat to that 5 turns before it because i felt safe and put it off :(. currently it's turn 107 and i'm gearing up for REXing the rest of africa/blocking off saladins expansion into it (he's already got 2 cities on it :mad:, and then building an army to take out his hindu holy city which has spread to ~25% of the world already. after the Great Library is built i think we'll be golden.

I feel like the only warmonger here :lol: I've played my current game past turn 350 (about 1600 AD) and I should be able to wrap up my game soon. I'll try to post more then.

@r_rolo1

The other options gave the possiblity of extra health in the future, with the expense of ( 1 in the second and 2 in the third )... Like in Civ IV happiness normally is far more important than health ( and even more in the first tuns, even a temporary happy boost is better than a permanent health one ( the game proved me right: the extra citizen allowed by the extra happiness allowed me to work all the resource tiles in the BFC, that permited me to finish fast a temple, making a temporary hap boost in a permanent one )

I found out the hard way that not selecting the +1 happiness option can really hurt a growing empire; it potentially causes 20-30 (can't remember) turns of unhappiness in some cities so even whipping becomes difficult and it can really put the brakes on a growing civilization at the most critical time, when happiness is already low. I'd agree that in most situations choosing the +1 happiness option is the best there.

Also good stuff getting this started, I'll give this a go sometime this week. I am curious to see how the new patch changes things...

I've had some free time on my hands and have played a little further.



After I lightbulbed Theo I built the AP in Thebes.

Here's my Egypt 445AD:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0031.jpg

Anyways, if any of you looked at my earlier posts, I forced many trade embargo's on other civs to prevent them from having open borders/trading with each other. Well eventually some of them got mad at me for that.



Since I had a big tech lead, i would sometimes sell old techs to civs for whatever gold they had + make them stop trading / declare war if possible, so I knew people weren't going to like me.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

So I set up some fortifications on my ONE border tile.

I played the game RISK at my cottage this weekend, and this sort of reminds of massing all your armies in Indoneisa, since its the one square u need to get past to break into the continent.

Since its a fort (+25%), hill (+25%, another +25% for longbows), and the city defence promotion works for forts as though they are cities (+45% from my longbow), and +25% fortify bonus, I had 6 + 145% = 14.7 str +1 first strike from that one longbow with only cg1 promotion.


So when the inevitable happened. I was somewhat ready:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0025-3.jpghttp://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0028-2.jpg


So once I made peace with Frederick and Louis, I sold some techs for cash/declaring war/stop trading with whatever civ would be bribed into it.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0029.jpg


Once I had finished the AP/UoS/SpM, I immeadiatly built up temples/monastaries in ALL my cities.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0033.jpg



Since there's a very resource rich area to the south I marked it off as my next place to settle:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0034.jpg
There's virtually no food down there, but I plan on farming 2-3 Great merchants and found sids sushi to solve that problem later.

I also need to finish off Musa sooner rather then later, his cities are still defended by paltry skimishers, but I've been too busy with other things to get around to it yet.

My monarch game is almost at the point where I want to replay it. The save is attached if anyone wants to take a gander, sorry for the lack of any SS but my imageshack account was getting a little crowded and I need to clean it up. (It's a 3.13 save I believe, it's also huge earth so make sure your PC can handle it!)

It's 1890 and I am researching Industrialism, on my way to what I thought was a domination win, but Qin has just become too damn powerful. I own half of Europe (Qin has the western half, oddly enough) and 70% of Africa, (Cyrus vassalized Mansa while I was taking him over, another tactical error on my part) and I am at around 1000 beakers per turn with about 15 or 16 cities. I have been very slow in my tech pace for the last 3/4 of the game, which is another reason I am not too pleased with this one and want to try a different route next round. I never really built many universities, observatories, banks, etc., as I was going mostly military from 1300's onwards and I never really had many cities until I took over Europe.

Qin just vassalized Catherine, who I was beating up and trying to vassalize myself, and he has rocketry so I am sure he is building the apollo program. If I didn't have to worry about the space race I'd just sit back and relax and wait until I had a massive enough force to take over the entire continent (which is what I would have to do if I went to war with Qin- he practically controls everything besides Europe and Africa) but I don't want to take the chance that I'd play out another 100 turns and lose to a space race.

As for general strategy with this map: Hatty's start is deceptively difficult. I say "deceptive" because it seems great to have FP, marble, stone, and horses, but in reality the unhealthiness and lack of any good sites other than the initial two or three cities on the floodplains makes it not as good as one would think. It becomes a production powerhouse once you settle all the plains hills on the southern end of the continent (and US helps immensely) but it takes some time to get things rolling to the point where you are really churning out units. (I am at that point now, but its just too much of a time investment to make without really being positive I am going to win.)

I think I should have farmed more of the FP's and gone with a specialist economy from the beginning, and tried to take over Europe quicker to get some of the good grassland for a late switchover to CE. Therefore a move two places north by the beginning settler to settle thebes on the coast is a wiser move, because this allows me to build galleys to transport troops over the Europe quicker than having to go to Carthage and settle that area in order to get a navy up and running. Taking over Saladin is also risky and difficult as he is protective and has CG 4 archers on all of his hill cities, which is an absolute nightmare. All in all I think a redo with a northern push coupled with an earlier destruction of Mansa is the way to go for me. I'll give this a try and report back.

And nice game so far cheffster, your methods to really max out your beakers in all your cities is impressive.

As for general strategy with this map: Hatty's start is deceptively difficult. I say "deceptive" because it seems great to have FP, marble, stone, and horses, but in reality the unhealthiness and lack of any good sites other than the initial two or three cities on the floodplains makes it not as good as one would think. It becomes a production powerhouse once you settle all the plains hills on the southern end of the continent (and US helps immensely) but it takes some time to get things rolling to the point where you are really churning out units. (I am at that point now, but its just too much of a time investment to make without really being positive I am going to win.)


And nice game so far cheffster, your methods to really max out your beakers in all your cities is impressive.

I personally didn't find the start difficult at all once I settled my second city to the far west where I had access to fish/sheep to raise the initial health cap. My capital was settled 1NW of start to avoid the initial unhealthly citizen at pop1. I also took mathematics from building the orace (which i rarely do) in order to build aqueducts and hanging gardens asap, my health was fine since then.

I usually cottage spam almost all my tiles, but this game I decided to try balancing towns with workshops, (+4hammers with caste system), and keep representation and settle/hire loads of specialists. Floodplains with castesystem/leeve/SP, give a whopping +3:food:, +5:hammers: +1:commerce:, my military city has taken full advantage of this. I also built UoS, SM, and AP, and then expanded as fast as possible to build those cheap temples in each city that give +2:hammers:,:gold:, :science:. I founded islam, built a shrine and spread it to most of my cities too keep up my :gold: flow.

After building some infastructure, I conquered Musa thus claiming the entire african continent. I then ventured overseas to hook up some much needed corn that was availible in South America. Then the Persians and some other civs declared war on me, but by this time I had calvary/rifles to fend off their maceman/muskets/trebs, and soon after I massed infantry and did some serious conquest. Qui Shang however kept making other civs his vassals so the war waged on for a long time and he is still quite powerfull. I didnt bother conquering europe yet, but I did make some nice $ pickups (see ss's)

Once I hit about 1600AD, i started to slack on the time consuming micromanagement so alot of improvements/buildings aren't ideal since I set most workers on auto and put building in the production que for my less important cities.

I founded sid's sushi, but I still think adopting SP is best for now since I have lots of workshops and distant cities and +10%hammers is not to be taken lightly. I might switch to FM later if I can found Mining inc.


Here's my SS"s (most of em from my current date of 1806)


This city was the jackpot, I build wallstreet after capturing it.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0036.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0048.jpg


and I laughed when I saw how many GG's were settled here:
Another huge pickup, this city will be my Ironworks city and soon be massing 1 turn tanks with 21xp.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0049-3.jpg


Heres some other shots. (dont have time to elaborate on all of em)

My capital with NE, oxford, farming another GP for a golden age since I have MOM now.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0051.jpg

My south american colonies (ie: corn link-up)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0052.jpg

My current stats: Note 30 hindu temples (+30:hammers::gold:,:science:)
Also note I killed lots of longbows/Cuirassers(sp?)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0053.jpg

My SP military production city, again, 1 turn tanks with 17xp? or so.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0050.jpg

I have full visibility of Qui Shangs cities:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0047.jpg

An overview of my cities 1794:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0039.jpg


ATM I'm banking about 500 gold/turn and 1500 beakers/turn and soon will make a switch to US to hurry some buildings/units, and in 15-30turns I plan to amass an army of 40-50 tanks to wipe out the rest of the asia/europe (vs thier longbows/rifles and some infantry), I'm hoping for a domination win by early 1900s.

I personally didn't find the start difficult at all once I settled my second city to the far west where I had access to fish/sheep to raise the initial health cap.

I settled that city as well (the Carthage city site in the 24 civ version) but it's a ways away and not exactly the ideal 2nd city site due to its distance. It was my 3rd city I believe.

However, on my second run I've found that heading east to Israel/Palestine for your 2nd city nabs you some sheep and some wine, and it is close enough to be a good second city site. It also has 2 dye, and 1 FP if you put the city in the right spot, plus some hills and forests for chopping. It also boxes in Saladin. Finally, it lacks any culture pressures from Spain and Rome.

I think my problem at the get go of my first game was I settled my second city directly south on the floodplains so I had zero production coming out of it.

I guess "difficult" wasn't the right word as it's not exactly hard to get things going if you do it right. I just don't think it's as great a start as it seems at first glance. Also, Africa isn't the best continent in general in the beginning due to the low food and massive amounts of jungle. IMHO the best start on the map is China. China is always a powerhouse in every incarnation of the Earth map.

My second attempt at monarch. Normal speed, update circa 780 AD

I settled Thebes on the coast and went east for my second city, and put my third city on the coast near the cow:

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5844/creativecityplacement00ne0.jpg

I did this for a number of reasons: 1) maximize the number of cities I can put on the Nile; 2) I wanted to be able to quickly build galleys so I needed at least two early coastal cities; 3) Mali was destroyed by Barbarians (!) in 3040BC so I had the whole continent to myself for the foreseeable future; 4) I needed the health; and 5) It prevents Saladin from settling the cow site, which he usually does.

The fact that Mali was out of the picture was great, because I didn't have to worry about land grabbing AND I got Timbuktu for free, essentially:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4605/twocitiesfor10000kz0.jpg

One warrior! The war chariot guarding my settler took it so I got two cities for the price of one. I took over Corinth in Turkey relatively early and settled for peace, it only took 3 war chariots as Alexander had one archer protecting it. It also gave me two workers. About 50 or so turns later I built up some galleys and took Athens, and then went down and took Mecca with the same force. Luckily Saladin just researched feudalism the turn I got there so he didn't have too many longbows and I took it easily:

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1570/mecca0000fg8.jpg

Galleys and the Mediterranean go hand in hand- it makes expansion extremely quick and easy since the AI isn't very good at defending itself from surprise attacks in the early game when it can't spam units. Also forts are great in BTS because they act like canals; no need to build a city to bridge the suez like in warlords and vanilla.

I am pondering going after Rome, but I think at this point expanding into Africa and peacefully building my empire is the better alternative. I founded christianity and am now running theocracy and vassalage, which I never do. I am not going CS early because I have war elephants and my capital is running farms, so the bureaucracy boost wouldn't be very benecificial. Once I get trebs/macemen/crossbowmen I plan on going for Europe. Europe is such a cluster-f*@k that you really need to be prepared to take over everything. Frederick is powerful in this game, but he just declared war on Catherine so maybe that won't last.

My empire at 750 AD:

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/6946/theworld7800000wg9.jpg

Not very many beakers right now, I am on my way to liberalism (which I LOST last game to elizabeth:mad:) and hopefully I can nab astro with it so I can build a navy and sweep through Europe.

I'm still going domination this game. Domination wins are fun on Earth because, well, it's Earth!

Nice game illram... better than mine ( that is stuck somewhere in turn 180ishs ( had a small car acident: no injuries but had all the car issue to resolv ( a new bumper, new lights,.... ) ) And nice luck with the barb ( this is BtS : anything can happen :lol: )

I agree! Nice game so far, Illram!

There is some killer land in Africa that needs settlin' - south Africa with gems/iron/copper/crab all in one city, and just a heapin'-helpin of jungle that needs to be cleared, and we all know what tons of grassland is good for.

I also agree 100% about Europe - if you're going to attack it, be prepared to take all of it (though you can let England pass - not too much cultural push once you get Paris cranking out the notes, and Liz is easy to keep happy and a good tech-trading partner).

On my way to domination win. Update circa 1927

My quest began with Rome in 1832. At the time I was still running theocracy so all my units were either combat II or CR 2. (I also needed the good diplo bonuses for Cyrus, I didn't want him sneak attacking me.) I needed Rome first because it was right next to me and I wanted the AP, to prevent anyone from any annoying city gifting. It also had the SOL, which is great on this map because all the cities are on one continent. With some galleons and a bunch of artillery and infantry, it was mine:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6307/romefirst0000qa2.jpg

The other cities were mop up. After about 7 or so turns, Rome was history. Next was Paris, which was also quick and easy and FULL of wonders. Poor Louis, all he could do was sit there and wonder spam.

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6515/parislotsofwonders0000ut4.jpg

I wanted France next because Paris had rock and roll and broadway, and Louis had some annoying cities at the southern end of Africa that I wanted. Paris was also culturally impinging on everything. Next was England, largely due to culture concerns. England also has the Temple of Solomon, which was good for about 50 extra gpt.

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9458/englandnext0000in6.jpg

I had Tanks soon after this. Frederick was getting oil from Cyrus so he had Panzers, but he didn't have enough of them. Spain was his vassal so I took Madrid first, which had the Pentagon. I didn't concern myself with wonders this game because I knew I was just going to steal them all anyways. In the midst of all this, I didn't even realize I was also at war with Catherine, who wanted to capitulate! OK, more free land, sure thanks Catherine. I wondered why she capitulated so easily (I hadn't even attacked her, since I wasn't even aware we were at war) but my power ranking was pretty high:

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9195/powercatcap0000em1.jpg

If you are powerful enough the AI will give in, and Cat is one of those leaders that capitulates easily.

I now had 22% of the world (1890). Frederick went down relatively easily, I now had a good amount of tanks with Combat I and Barrage, which essentially makes them mobile artillery. It speeds things up a little if you don't have to wait for the artillery.

My Euro invasion force:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/2716/europeaninvasion0000tz5.jpg

Frederick wants no more of me:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1565/capfred0000er3.jpg

I took Berlin, razed Hamburg and razed the city in Norway/Sweden to get some cultural breathing room for my shiny new European empire. Took about 40 turns to take over Europe. A lot of that was waiting for stuff to heal and travel time. If it was just tanks it would have been quicker.

Here are my big specialized cities:

Capital:
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4387/capital19270000et6.jpg

Wall Street:
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7890/wallstreet0000gf0.jpg

GP Farm:
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8681/gpfarm0000jy3.jpg

Ironworks:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/9699/ironworks0000tf5.jpg

I currently have 33 cities:
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/7205/cities0000yh1.jpg

Only a few of them are really producing a lot of beakers, most of them are for production. When you have so many cities it really doesn't matter, and for a domination win all I really need are modern armer and mobile artillery. I find that with the limit on 4 bombers per city (8 with airports) having a bunch of bombers doesn't really work as it used to. Mobile artillery serve the same function essentially.

Cyrus is next:

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4586/cyrusnext0001xu8.jpg

Sorry buddy. Nice knowing you! ;)

I am currently running Free Market, FS, US, and FR. I switched to FR once Cyrus became annoyed and I was powerful enough to repel a sneak attack from him. (The Pentagon also provided me with the extra XP, so it was superflous.) I was running SP once I discovered communism, but I wanted to spread my Cereal and Sushi corporations so I switched to FR once I had both. It hurts because SP was good for about 250 extra GPT, but I figure if I spam enough Corp to Catherine and the western hemisphere I can get that gold back. I am also kind of curious to see how much GPT I can get out of my wall street city. I predict this one will be over in about 50-60 turns or so, depends how quickly I can vassalize everyone.

I might also try and see if Monty will vassalize; he gives up quick and he has a lot of land that could really give a boost to my score.

Well, you really got Cyrus with his pants down... Rifles vs tanks + arties is not a fair fight :lol: . But India and China can be troublesome....

My game is progressing quite nicely.

I cripled the Chinese economy by blockading all their costal cities. On other fronts my tanks are making gradual progress on world conquest:



I really lol'd at this one:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0066.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0071-1.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0075-1.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0076-1.jpg

yeah, its my tank vs a longbow...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0078-1.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0077-2.jpg

more spoils of war:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0074-1.jpg

i just played a new game. i was set to have annihilated mansa, saladin, AND cyrus by turn 90, until a motherf#$@$%% barbarian uprising of 6-7 SPEARMEN! i mean wtf :mad:. luckily i was able to hold mecca despite defending against 4 spearmen with soley war chariots :(. I made the mistake of going for mansa first i think. I think i should have gone for saladin first, then alex and cyrus. they are a lot closer, and mansa has such terrible land.

hmm my game froze so I think i'm going to start another game and this time not screw up/get pwned by barbarian random events. This time i'm going to go straight for saladin and cyrus, or possibly go all the way up to alex. my goal is to get around a 1600 AD domination victory on emperor. however, i doubt i will actually be able to play it all the way through unless I get a MUCH better computer to play on :sad:.

Well I replayed the game and the war in the middle east went much better. though when i went into greece, my war chariots and swordsmen broke on the spartan city. my chariots just couldnt stand up against crossing a river to attack a city on a hill :(. but other than that this is going to be a very fun and challenging game from the looks of it. Qin Shi is keeping up with me in points and is close behind in GNP. I'm still not sure if I'll be able to get the 1600 dom/conquest win, but it's looking like it. even with capture 4 cities very quickly, i was able to pull off a CoL slingshot via the oracle. I've also built the parthenon, GLib, Chicken pizza, and SoZ. europe is very ripe ATM, so I may just go into europe and ignore the rest of africa and let mansa fill it in for me. however, he has some very mature cottages now, so it may be worth it to nab those cities for the boost to research. he's also researching at a pretty fast rate.

right now i'm on the path to construction, and then i'm going to probably try for CS/Machinery and then military tradition via liberalism slingshot. I plan on taking over Asia with cavs. I still have no idea what city i should make my HE/WP city. I already settled one GG in my capital, and have one saved atm. europe is doing a lot of war with Caesar so there will probably be a pretty nice city with GG's settled already. I think i'll save him until i conquer europe and make one of those very nice cities it. anyway, here are some pictures :D. I think for an early domination victory, that settling africa is probably a bad idea. later on when you can produce settlers in one turn, it becomes much easier to finish settling africa. the only probably is taking care of mansa, and stopping europe from taking it. However, by settling africa, you just give your opponents much more time to advance militarily. that's why it's so important to rush Saladin and Cyrus early. however, by taking out cyrus, a huge void is left in the area that he usually settles, so i'm expecting to face a much large china and russia. hopefully they over expand and stifle their economy, though they will eventually come huge powerhouses if i dont do something about it eventually. China appears to already be the main contender for this entire game. I think i'm going to take a page from your book cheffster and blockade china.

EDIT: a note, you'll see that my soldier count is very low. that's in part because i had very bad losses towards the end against cyrus and alexander. and i've been focusing solely on rebuilding my infrastructure. I think the next x amount of turns I need to build up a huge army that will be able to sweep across europe before most of the countries get long bows.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0110.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0111.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0108.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0109.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0105.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0106.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0107.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0103.jpg

and finally the whole country.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y107/mrfelony/Civ4ScreenShot0104.jpg

Chickened out and went diplo win, 1965. Got kind of bored so I ended it. (Could have done it earlier but I wanted to persevere...oh well) Certainly not a 1600AD domination win, but I was impressed at how much money you can get spamming corporations to your rivals.

China was last. I had about 40% of the 60% or so that I needed, I figured China and Mongolia would get me there if I vassaled them quick enough. China's main weakness is they only have one source of oil, which is easily neutralized. By the time I got around to Qin I had plenty of military and was quickly building more:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6083/plentyofstuff0000tf2.jpg

Not very fair. Mobile artillery are awesome by the way, this was the first time I really got to mess around with them.

Mecca turned into a cash cow. I spammed sushi and creative constructions to my vassals and was beginning to also spam them in the New World after Monty kindly signed open borders with me (even though he was in mercantilism, go figure).

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/6938/mecca0001ri2.jpg

I've never had that much gpt out of one city.

123 million population, not bad:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4210/demographx0000av9.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7526/diplovictory0000iv1.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7135/30k0000bx0.jpg

I don't know how you guys get early domination wins on this map, it's so damn big!

I'm thinking it's not going to be near 1600. FRANCE just vassalized to CHINA. how are they even friends :confused:. China is becoming a huge problem fast. they're power is sky rocketing, and my only hope is that they don't bribe their best friends russia to gang up on me too. currently i'm at war with qin shi, frederick, tokugowa, julius caesar, and louis XIV...wiped out alex, about to wipe out julius, and then moving on to either louis or frederick. and only reason why i said 1600 was because i wanted to beat my all time record ;). but in that game i was more than twice 2nd place's score by now...and now mansa just decided to become catherines vassal out of the blue...

so I think my initial thoughts that taking out cyrus would allow qin and catherine to become power houses was right :/

I'm thinking it's not going to be near 1600. FRANCE just vassalized to CHINA. how are they even friends :confused:. China is becoming a huge problem fast. they're power is sky rocketing, and my only hope is that they don't bribe their best friends russia to gang up on me too. currently i'm at war with qin shi, frederick, tokugowa, julius caesar, and louis XIV...wiped out alex, about to wipe out julius, and then moving on to either louis or frederick. and only reason why i said 1600 was because i wanted to beat my all time record ;). but in that game i was more than twice 2nd place's score by now...and now mansa just decided to become catherines vassal out of the blue...

so I think my initial thoughts that taking out cyrus would allow qin and catherine to become power houses was right :/

Sounds similar to my first game that I quit on monarch; Qin vassalized just about everyone. My second attempt I got lucky in that for some reason Asoka and Genghis put up a good fight on Qin and kept him under control for most of the game.

Any domination win on this map before 1900 is an impressive feat though, I think, particularly with BtS and the additions to the tech tree (notably, no more ridiculously early Cav rushes!). My earliest is 1921 I believe, with China.

You can still do a cav rush on this map. I finished in 1655 with a score of about 211k. I could have done a lot faster if I had vassalized Qin 100 years earlier... but I wanted to wipe him out because he was being annoying. And I didn't even end up killing him in the end :blush: Cathy and Toku voluntarily vassalized around 1000 AD (by which time I was preparing to destroy Europe with maces/trebs/knights, quickly followed by cavalry/rifles/cannons. I finished the game after vassalizing Khan and Monty (who took forever). The only non-vassal civs left were Qin and Huayna.

My finishing demographics:
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9924/demo0000ej2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I attached my save file from the turn before victory... but it's a massive 700kb :eek:

My game started with a chariot rush of Saladin, Cyrus, and Asoka. I also boxed in Alex (who was destroyed by the other European powers eventually) and I took out Mansa fairly early (he only had 2 cities when I killed him). I then built infrastructure via the AP + SM + UoS for all of my cities (a free 4 hammers, 4 beakers and 4 gold with both a monastery and a temple). After that, I built up a small army of maces, trebs, and knights and started to attack Europe by going Alex --> Caesar --> Frederick (who had killed off Alex, Isabella, and Louis by this point). I got Cathy and Toku as vassals around this time.

Frederick didn't last too long - WW was doing more damage than his army. I then built some boats and quickly took out Liz while I moved my army eastward and started to attack Qin. I took a long time on Qin and eventually just took peace (I didn't want to adopt police state and WW was killing me). I turned around to attack the Americas and wrapped up my domination after that.

The AP was a very useful tool in my game. I used it to start many crusades against the infidels and constantly stopped trades between the AI. That definitely slowed down the overall tech rate as at the end of the game, the most advanced civ was Cathy who was researching military tradition. Toku teched decently (he was at banking) but the others like Monty were still waaaaaay back.

I played another game and went about exactly the same route you did. but instead of massing an arming, i've been building infrastructure. except I got lucky and India was killing by either barbs and seized by china. I also got lucky cause khan had asuccessful war against china and took his capital, thus neutering my only big threat. though frederick is kind of powerful. I'm massing an army of elephants/knights to upgrade to cavs and will see how my. Also, Saladin didnt found hinduism for some reason, but luckily it became the holy city for both confucianism and christianiy.

You can still do a cav rush on this map. I finished in 1655 with a score of about 211k.

:goodjob: Nice. I often eat my words on these forums. But I would still say the warlords days of the 1100's era cav rush are over for average players such as myself since you can't grab cavs with liberalism as easily anymore.

If you want to cav rush, you should grab rifling from liberalism and tech MT after that (assuming the AI isn't even close to liberalism). In the meantime, build HA and knights (you may want to keep knights so that you can flank attack enemy trebs). Upgrade as you see fit (economics GM can be useful for this as well), then go to town.

I played it pretty far, but pre-attack phase. I've placed it in my "to play later when i'm at home with my brothers muhc better computer" file since i can't justify playing 20 hrs for a game that can take 6 at home. my research rate was such (thanks to 2 repeated GAs) that I was getting any tech like MT, democracy, etc in 3-5 turns so i decided to take advantage of my research rate to save liberalism. I should plan a trip home soon so i can finish the game :lol:. do only fredericks actory UB get 50% increase in production rate with coal?

After and ETERNITY of paying this game.... massing tanks and capping cities non-stop for the last 100 turns I finally got a domination victory. It was really fun for the first 90% of the game, then pure tedium.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0101-1.jpg
60k or so.. not horrible, but Im sure if I cav rushed in the renassaince I could have done much better.

yeah 26 hours of my life wasted
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0102-1.jpg

my army 1889
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0100.jpg

Another war scene, I eventually got all modern armors but was too lazy to take ss;s
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d101/Shamshaw/Civ4ScreenShot0099.jpg

http://files.filefront.com/Hatshepsut+CHeff+AD+1910+dSave/;8823621;/fileinfo.html

if ur curious I uploaded on filefront since something wasn't working on the manage attachments

as a side note... somehow I'm getting all these random popups on my PC, this never happened. I did dl full version of Limewire and Utorrent recently. But my IE setting to block them. Any advice to stop this?



stupid web isn't letting me attach my save, oh well.

you guys wanna do another one?

Chefster, I just would like to know how you have plot lists with 16 units across.

you guys wanna do another one?

I still haven't finished mine :lol: .... but I'm open to a second round. Must see who is next to Hatty on list...

I still haven't finished mine :lol: .... but I'm open to a second round. Must see who is next to Hatty on list...

I'm keeping my time slot open to jump on this one asap :bump:
Gimme China or Monty :lol:

Definitely up for another one.

King of the World, Open Game, Inca anyone? :) Only for those looking for a challenging game.

I'm currently enjoying going for an early immortal domination win with rome. that is a lot of fun :king:. I think i might start the game over. even though i have the game by at the latest 1800 (hopefully, it's still about 4-500 years away), there were a lot of things that set back my world conquest. Like saladin getting LB's the TURN after i scouted him making sure he didnt have LBs (which he didnt) :sad: and then Cyrus getting them right after saladin double :sad:. that and i did a TERRIBLE rush against bismark in teh beginning which set back the rest of my european conquest i'm not sure how many turns :/

I'm willing to play almost any civ except mansa I HATE mansa's start. Every game I play poor Roosevelt is getting beat up by Montezuma, how about we teach Montey a lesson :mischief: I have no idea what inca's start is like besides it's skinning and sucks lol. It does sound like a challenge though. Hatshepsut was a fun challenge. I would like to see If it would have been better to rush through europe after saladin instead of after cyrus and india. btw the civ thta comes after egypt is...India!

in order just for reference its Egpyt, India, Chinese, Greece, roman, persian, japanese, german, mongolian, french, arabian, spanish, english, russian, malinese, Incan, Aztec, american

in order just for reference its Egpyt, India, Chinese, Greece, roman, persian, japanese, german, mongolian, french, arabian, spanish, english, russian, malinese, Incan, Aztec, american


Thanks for the list... just going in order looks like a good idea. If this continues I am definitely looking forward to China. Rome is always fun too. India would be interesting as there is a lot of jungle and you are boxed in by Cyrus and Qin Shi Huang.

Agree with Mali- thats the one civ on this map that really has an unplayable start. Inca is boxed in by Mountains, although they have all of south america to take over (but with loads of jungle).

It's really a credit to Rhye for making such a well balanced earth map that every civ save 1 has a playable and winnable start.

Mansa start is winnable, but it is not trivial ( you need to make your second city in Morroco ( the iron site ) and axe rush Spain or Egypt or skirmisher rush to Egypt, both things that you wouldn't do without previous knowledge of the map. I put it in the same level than the Inca start.....

I'm thinking in launching the second instalement of this soon ( can finish my game later ;) ) .... India seems a nice chalenge: good starting area but loads of jungle and very powerful and fast expanding neighbours... But a european start is a load of fun: the typical learning map for how to make a effective axe rush ( or two, or three.... :lol: )

I'd love to have another game like this. Esp with Inca.

And please elaborate mice as to what you mean:
"Chefster, I just would like to know how you have plot lists with 16 units across."

I got bored with micromanagement at the end so idk..

But a european start is a load of fun: the typical learning map for how to make a effective axe rush ( or two, or three.... :lol: )

Only Germany starts with copper, though - everyone else has to beeline Iron Working, which isn't much of a "rush". Rome is just way too easy on this map, but any of the other European powers can be big fun.

Domination, by the way, is just pure tedium at the end of this one. It becomes unfun, so I never finish domination earth 18s.

@ cheffster, he was wonder how your stacks icons showed 16 wide i believe because they usually only regiter as 8 wide. (their picture icons in the middle lower area of the screen)

I think in terms of rushing europe, germany is the best, but for the best long haul world conquest rome takes the cake. I don't usually try immortal, but since the AI's are much weaker on earth 18 civ, i started playing it. germany is the only real problem for rome, since they'll have copper/axes before you can rush them.

so India it is? I think i'll play them a lil tonight ;)

@ cheffster, he was wonder how your stacks icons showed 16 wide i believe because they usually only regiter as 8 wide. (their picture icons in the middle lower area of the screen)

Yes, that's it.

Here's chefster's

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/mice2_photo/plotlists.png

usually they go 8 or 9 across. Handy for big big stacks like this. how's it done ?? ,

sorry for the off topic rolo ;)

so i played a couple practice games as India and i'm not really sure which way to go. I might play this one on emperor soley so i can archer rush cyrus, which won't work on immortal since he gets them pretty early. Asoka starts with mysticism, but with the AI's tech rate it's too big of a gamble, if not impossible to get an early religion. I guess the best path is to just go

Hunting>AH>Agr>the wheel>pottery>BW>IW?

I'm going for pottery mainly because there is a lack of early commerce in this start and plan on putting cottages down to help speed up the research to IW. I also think i'm going to try to REX this jungle like crazy so i'm going to need some :comerce: to back it up. or do you guys think BW>IW would be better?

build

partial warrior (grow to size 2)>start worker>finish warrior>settler>warrior>warrior>settler>worker>warrior.

this is highly dependent on how where the builds fit into the research. but i think we'll only need 2 workers for every 3 cities, maybe less. by the time the first settler is out, most of the city should be improved.

Here are shots of the India start for those of you that are curious or want to discuss it. (Attached, my imageshack wasn't working for some reason) I included the tech tree for reference. Mr Felony's tech path got me thinking about alternatives for this start; after a cursory look at this I can think of a few:

(For all the following, the turn count is based on 10 beakers per turn, the amount Delhi gets by settling in place and working the cow with 1 pop. Therefore multiply the turns by 10 for the approximate total beakers.)

AG-->AH-->writing-->BW-->IW

Go for libraries and scientists instead of cottages for early beakers. Based solely on the beaker count off the first turn, it takes 45 turns to get to writing via AG and AH, 42 if you go Hunting instead of AG. If you go AG instead of Hunting, you get the rice and the wheat and you can build farms, whereas with hunting you get the ivory and the scout. (Scout is pretty useless for this map IMO.) You also get AH quicker with hunting, but with less resources. With all the jungle, an extra health resource may be helpful for the 2nd city. Then again, the cows alone can fund two scientists... but how long can you really delay AG?

You could try

Poly-->AG-->wheel-->pottery-->PH-->BW-->IW

PH in the middle for an oracle run. Poly for hinduism. It's 47 turns to Pottery this way. Would taking IW off the oracle be a waste of the oracle? If you do that maybe it allows you to research other stuff. Don't know if Hinduism is feasible on Monarch and above on this map and this start. (On monarch maybe, though I probably won't try for it.)

The quickest route to commerce is wheel-->fishing-->pottery, at 33 turns, although fishing might not be that helpful off the bat here. Maybe it will, I can't remember but I believe there is fish to the west.

Quickest way to writing is med-->PH-->writing at 41 turns.

Quickest way to IW is obviously via BW. At 36 turns IW needs some extra beakers first.

I think you can settle to the west for your second city to stop Cyrus from encroaching, and then go east for the third city to block of Qin, who doesn't get there for a while. You then have the entire subcontinent of jungle for yourself and your fast workers.

Thoughts? As usual I am probably overlooking something obvious...:crazyeye:

I'm currently playing an india start testing out what i planned. I ended up adding in fish because I founded my 2nd city on the ivory so it'd also get the iron when it popped up and the 3rd city I took a pretty crappy start to finish off blocking cyrus that basically just works 2-3 cottages until i got the sugar up. I was BARELY able to block Qin from expanding into the really juicy area to the west (N and S korea?). by barely i mean i founded a city that pushed his settler back into his territory. I'm trying out immortal on the earth maps so anyone on emperor or below might be able to get that decent city site to the west before cyrus.

I decided to grow my cap to size 2 before starting the worker so maybe even that will help you get that much better site next to cyrus before he grabs it. also, I dont think you really need agriculture that early. the cows are enough since our happy cap inthe capital is something liek 5. all the wheat is good for is maybe growing quickyl after a whip or helping to run those 2 scientists, but it's not really necessary

After pottery, I basically started spamming settlers and workers (which we actually will need a lot more than i originally thought), and prayed no one attacked me. I also went writing very shortly after IW and threw a library in my capital and started working 2 scientists. once a religion gets over to you and you get calender, happiness problems are almost a thing of the past. now that I got a good land based settled, i've been building infranstructure and troops pretty hard core. the plan is to build an army to take China's ripe main land and to also send a pair of settlers to australia to start a colony.


@illram: I think hinduism is possible on monarch, but i think it's best to let saladin found it and do all the work of spreading the religion for you. in my game i think saladin founded hinduism on turn 17 or 18, which is pretty late. the oracle was also founded in 1360BC, which makes me think that it may be possible to get it on emperor and below.

update: so i tried it out and for some reason i can liberate my 3 australian cities to a new colony :confused: anyone have any ideas why? do they need to be very close to each other? because they are kinda far apart..and one of them keeps wanting to join egypt :confused:, except now that i made my 3rd city on australia, i cant liberate it to egypt anymore....maybe i should have just gone into world builder to find this out lol. changes in strategy will probably be to try and get that first settler out quicker for blocking off cyrus, and to get the 2nd one out and send him much closer to china to block expansion off that way. there is some non-jungle land that can be improved and forests to be chopped for a monument. also focus on back-filling my land more and maybe make some more workers to get it all improved just a tad faster and then build up a better army for the conqueuring of China.

what about toku?

someone needs to colonise australia and its easiest with toku, also, toku is fun!!!!

australia sucks. I tried colonizing it as india. it wouldnt let me form my 3 cities into one (i think cause of distance). and one of them kept asking to join egypt :confused:

wow that is wierd, but australia doesnt suck!

well the country doesnt suck in real life, but in civ...there are only 3-4 spots that you can settle realistically and they are very far away.