All Leaders Challenge Pre-Game Show:
Game #19 - Sumer/Gilgamesh

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/sisiutil/ALC19/GilgameshSM.jpg

In the next ALC game, I'll be playing as Gilgamesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh), leader of Sumer. The purpose of this thread is to discuss, before the game, how to best exploit that particular leader's characteristics, which is the main feature and purpose of the ALC series. Just so we're clear, I'm playing with the Beyond the Sword expansion pack with its most recent official patch (3.13) and with Bhruic's unofficial patches (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246057) as well. The difficulty level will be Emperor and the speed is Epic. Here's the fact sheet:

Traits: Creative (+2 culture per city. Double production speed of Theater, Coliseum, and Library.) and Protective (Archery and Gunpowder units receive Drill I and City Garrison I automatically; Double production speed of Walls and Castle).
Starting Techs: The Wheel and Agriculture
Unique Unit: Vulture (Replaces Axeman; Strength: 6, Movement: 1, Cost: 35; Unique Characteristics: +25% versus Melee units (25% less than the Axeman's regular bonus))
Unique Building: Ziggurat (Replaces Courthouse; Cost: 100; Requires: Code of Laws; Unique Characteristics: 20 hammers cheaper than the courthouse, only four are required to build the Forbidden Palace.)

This is the first ALC game to be played with one of the new BtS leaders, and Gilgamesh may be one of the best of the lot. His characteristics make me think he's a natural warmonger--this despite the lack of traits like Aggressive or Charismatic.

The most obvious evidence in favour of this is the unique unit. Vultures have one more strength than the Axemen they replace; the price they pay for this is a loss of half the 50% bonus regular Axemen get versus melee units. I should think, though, that the increase in strength more than makes up for it, especially since the Vulture is most likely to be going up against Archers, the AI's favourite early defensive unit. And that's the key, I think, with Sumer: you want to get to at least one AI rival before they make the transition from Archers to Chariots, Axemen, and the like. I'm looking, then, to perform an early rush with Sumer. However, that's made additionally challenging because of the starting techs. I'll have to research both Mining and Bronze Working and claim a source of copper in order to start building Vultures. Since Sumer has an early UU, I'll probably ask Welnic to check the start to ensure I'm not isolated.

Not that the starting techs are anything to disparage. The Wheel and Agriculture are both very good, very important early worker techs. Having them in hand means Gilgamesh can pursue a strategic tech like Bronze Working without sacrificing early development too much. I may start by building a Worker first, especially if there's corn, wheat, or rice in the capital's fat cross, since the Worker will therefore have plenty to do as soon as he appears.

Gilgamesh's Creative trait also lends itself to early land grabs, and in more ways than one. With Creative, you don't have to spend hammers on things like Monuments or Stonehenge. You can put them into barracks and units instead. The cheap libraries argue in favour of a specialist economy this time around.

I'm less enthusiastic about the Protective trait, as are many Civ gamers. As I've maintained before, this is a trait that suits the AI more than the human player. In the early going, it will be tough to make the most of it. Hunting and Archery are low priorities compared to Mining and Bronze Working for the UU. I'm kind of hoping for a campable resource in or near the start to justify researching Hunting--either that, or some good luck with goody huts.

I'm also not that impressed with the unique building. The Ziggurat makes Code of Laws an early tech priority. I'm tempted to try to build the Oracle, but Gilgamesh already has many other early tech targets (Mining/BW and possibly IW for the UU, Hunting/Archery for Protective Archers, Writing for cheap Libraries). It's nice that they're cheaper than Courthouses, but I don't see a big advantage to only requiring four (is that map size dependent, by the way?) to build the Forbidden Palace. I mean, usually I want to have quite a bit of territory before I build the FP to justify it. In many games I don't build it for quite some time, until some distant conquest is finished. I guess we'll just see how things pan out in this game.

EDIT: As several people pointed out below, Ziggurats are available with Priesthood. Well, that changes things. It means that the game's first maintenance-reducing building (and espionage-enhancing one, too) is available much, much earlier. Suddenly the Ziggurat looks more attractive.

Overall, then, Gilgamesh seems like a mix of strength and weakness: good starting techs, a strong early UU, and the Creative trait; but combined with a so-so UB and the weak Protective trait. It falls to us to make the most of the former and see what we can get out of the latter.

Now, we also need to discuss a couple of other game elements.

First off, what map type should I play? We haven't tried the new hemispheres map yet, so I'm thinking that one might be worth a shot.

Second, should I play with any of the optional game elements on? Aggressive AI in particular, since I'm planning on warmongering? I myself am leaning away from this for this game. My reasoning is that this is only the second ALC on Emperor, and the first one with all the AI changes in the new patch. The AI may be tough enough as it is without loading up on units to boot. I'd rather save Aggressive AI for the next two games (Ragnar and Shaka), which will both be played as Aggressive leaders.

However, I'll definitely consider turning the "choose religion when founded" option on, just for flavour. What does everyone think?

Sound exciting, I can't wait.
One thing to note though: The Ziggurat's strength isn't that it costs less hammers, it's that it comes with priesthood, not CoL. With that in mind, maybe an espionage based early economy would be in order.

The Ziggurat requires Priesthood not CoL, making CoL a low priority tech. I would do a vulture rush. I've tried a couple and vultures eat archers alive.

EDIT: X-post

The Ziggurat makes Code of Laws an early tech priority.

You mean Priesthood, right?

The tech cost to get to Priesthood is much lower than getting Code of Laws. Since you're looking at an early war situation, you'll likely end up with more cities than you can pay for easily - that's where getting a Courthouse (well, Ziggurat) early will come in very handy. Going for the Oracle would be a fringe benefit, imo.

First off, what map type should I play? We haven't tried the new hemispheres map yet, so I'm thinking that one might be worth a shot.

I'll vote for that, it generally makes for some decent maps.

Second, should I play with any of the optional game elements on? Aggressive AI in particular, since I'm planning on warmongering?

I'd play at least one game with 3.13 without AggAI on. If the AI changes are what they are cracked up to be, it should be a challenge without it.

Bh

Very eager to watch how this ALC plays out! Sumeria has been one of my favorite BtS additions and it will be great fun to see Sis and the community put Gilgamesh through the paces.

The Ziggurat issue has been brought to light already, but I'd like to add that starting techs make pottery available as an initial research choice! This makes a quick cottage economy to power the early economy something to consider as well.

It's been my experience that Sumeria is well positioned to take and run with whatever the initial city site provides, basically allowing the first city's aptitudes to dictate the strategic approach to the early game. This flexibility melds well with creative and the UU and UB!

This one will be fun to watch. :)

I personally would like to see Gilly use the tech path to Priesthood plus Creative trait to try and aim for a cultural victory. Diplomacy shouldn't be too much of a problem if you can ALSO harness a Vulture rush on 1/2 nearby rivals.

It would also seem perversely fun to try a cultural win keeping in mind what Gilly was attempting when we met him as the delectable Izzy. Also for me - with no offence intended - a lot of the most recent ALCs have emphasised the use of war in expansion, something which I have recently learnt a lot from in my own games. However I recently had a random select outing as Zara Yaqob (with only Tao/Islam founded) and snared a cultural win on Prince. I'd like to see a cultural win without over emphasis on religions - very much possible a with a "GA economy".

edit- just to say, Protective (and in the case of my zara game, double drilled Oroko (?) ) can keep the wolf from the door in terms of a peaceful fight to victory.

As others have mentioned, Ziggurats come with Priesthood, not Col, which make them much more versatile than regular courthouses. therefore, you have a lot of early reasearch priorites; BW for Vultures, Priesthood for Ziggurats, Archery for upgraded archers,but neither of the starting techs help in that regard.
I recommend you use an espionage economy, especially seeing as your early UU lends itself to that and that the GW is an excellent wonder for defense along with protective archers. Use Spies and Scientists(taking advantage of cheap libraries, your starting techs, and castles for more :espionage:) to fuel your expansion, while you steal from others and self research other techs.
I posted in another thread this dissertation:
Sumeria
Leader(s): Gilgamesh- Creative/Protective
Starting techs: The Wheel, Agriculture
UU: Vulture-replaces axeman: 6 :strength:, 25% vs. melee
UB: ziggurat-replaces courthouse: 90 :hammers:, Requires priesthood to build

Gilgamesh is built for the early axe-rush. With more powerful axemen, earlier and cheaper courthouses, creative to push borders of conquered assets and allow you more room with dot-mapping, and protective to rush archers in to protect your cities, Gilga is an unstoppable rusher with which land you can settle back into a peaceful victory. The Wheel allows you to hook up resources earlier, and Agri gives you a leg up on an SE, seeing as Gilga has no direct economic bonus, but cheap libraries. Some problems are all the techs you need to acess all these early goodies. Too much of a god thing can hurt you. You need BW for vultures, Writing to get your economy going, archery to protect your axe rush gains, and a minimal religious strat to grab early courthouses. the cool thing though is tht you can use the oracle to slingshot yourself to a free tech since you'll be going ater that anyway. IT's just that the two starting techs don't have that great synegy with getting the techs you need to get your axerush going. Otherwise, Gliga is a great leader to use to understand the axerush, an then recover from the inevitable economic recession.
Using espoinage to recover from your large expansion should allow to exploit something you haven't used much and will allow you to catch up in the tech race. Pray for a nearby Mansa(so you can steal from him, of course)!

Suggested tech path:
Mining>BW>Mysticism>Polytheism>Preisthood>Animal Husbandry and Hunting, or Masonry and Monotheism if you don't have a religion founded nearby.

Now, the start may alter the viability of this path, but it nets you hit UU and UB very early on. His extra early courthouses will help pay for territory you will be conquering with your vulture rushes. Time is of the essance with Gilgamesh, you have to start moving early. The only thing Vultures fear right up to the Midevel era is Axemen, so chariots are a secondary priority to help stacks deal with them. AI favors archers over axemen for some odd reason though, so I doubt you'll need to deal with many of them if you get going early.

If you take out a rival or three (I've done it before, vultures are absolutely nasty on a level only matched by Immortals) early on the game is essentially in the bag provided you don't get seriously unlucky and have Mansa, Monty and Boudica buddied up under Buddism on the same continent with Emperor level mansa happily feeding the two big guys techs. Ziggurats are the only thing that is nearly as cool as the Zulu Ikhanda early expansion wise.

I'd agree with Kietharr's tech path, except I'd put Pottery after Priesthood (unless you have an obvious need for Animal Husbandry or Hunting).

Bh

Giggles always seems to be the strongest whenever he appears in my games. I'm assuming that's because early courthouses = huge empire = tech lead?

While I am certainly not an Emperor-level player, I think the Protective trait has more upside than most people suggest. Free Drill I is very nice because it leads into the higher level Drills, which reduce collateral damage to the unit. The AI loves using siege weapons to damage your stacks. High Drill stacks don't care, especially if you have a medic in there too. The free strikes don't hurt, either. You need to include some other troops to deal with the 'immune to free strikes' mounted units (at least until Riflemen, after which few of them are really a threat), but against everyone else, lots of extra free strikes make for a potent offensive and defensive unit.

Equally, City Garrison I isn't just handy on defense: it's good on offense too. Attack, take a city, watch the inevitable counter-attack break on the City Garrison troops. It also saves you from building specifically defensive troops to follow up your offensive stacks.

If you go with the Hemispheres map, you won't need to check for neighbors, especially if you choose the two continents option. Whether you'll get Copper, and a neighbor close enough to rush . . that's another story. Protective Archers can make pretty good fog-busters (saving your Vultures for the AI), though, and you're likely to have a fair amount of territory to light up on a Hemisphere map.

I had two AIs declare war on me around Construction in my first run on 3.13 at normal aggression, though they were Boudica and Survy. Aggressive AI might well wait for another run through. (And Boudica was at Pleased!) Nothing to add yet on the AI vs AI front, though.

With a little luck, Gilgamesh is a very strong leader. You might be headed toward one of your highest ALC scores yet.

I think you can use Gilgamesh to build a specialist economy and do an early rush, but it seems to me that what he's built for is a cultural victory. The Theater and Coliseum imply heavy use of the culture slider as opposed to gaining happiness resources, and protective also implies a defensive rather than expansive empire.

1) You do need to pick an appropriate difficulty level. Monarch is easy for any experienced player, I would say unlosable. Or it was unlosable in Warlords (pre-2.08 ) anyway.
2) If you're going to rush, have the courtesy of letting the AI know by turning on Aggressive AI. Be a wolf amongst the lambs if you want, but it's fairer to be a wolf amongst wolves.

Because Aggressive AI does not so easily fall victim to trivial rushes, it does play significantly harder - or at least, promotes a balanced game.

(As for why this is: There was way too much whining about the AI training too many units. So the default AI is pretty wussy, much like the default player. Aggressive AI embraces unit spam in all it's glory).

I would have liked to remove the Aggressive AI setting and replace it with Peaceful AI setting, making aggressive AI the default and making it clear what the suboptimal setting (for challenge) is, but that wasn't high on my list of things to get changed...

edit:
So to just spell it out.
Non-aggressive AI is non-competitive. It's what players wanted.


Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.

Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.

I agree with this. Put Aggressive AI on :p (or at least consider it for the next game ;))

Looking forward to the thread.

Seems to me that if Military, Research, and the Economy are the top three concerns in a civ game, Gilgamesh takes care of the first two right away with his UU and traits. Your economy is, frankly, the only question.

And that's where the UB comes in. The Ziggurat is not only available earlier (at Priesthood) but also costs 25% less than a regular courthouse. This is significant. This frees you up to pursue any form of economy you choose, bolstered by reduced maintenance costs.

You could do some serious REXing with Ziggurats + Creative.

Gilgamesh has to be one of the most versatile leaders in the game.

You could do some serious REXing with Ziggurats + Creative.
Seconding this. If you get stone and build the Great Wall for the great spy that will help you catch up with tech by stealing.

I do like the sound of Aggressive AI, let's see some carnage!:ar15:

Seconding this. If you get stone and build the Great Wall for the great spy that will help you catch up with tech by stealing.

The cost for stealing techs is so ridiculous that a single -- even two -- GS won't make up for the difference, I think.

Move ZIG. For great justice.

So Ziggy lives in Priesthood. Which means that Code of Laws has less leverage than it usually does. Anybody got clever ideas on how to best take advantage of this?

Have been playing a game as Gilly and found that my espionage rate is nice and high.

Only wonder built so far is the Great Wall and I settled the first great spy. This has allowed me to direct my espionage points nicely to current and future victims.

Economy is going so-so and I am tech leader. Playing on Prince mind you so not quite the same as emperor.

Anyhow, Gilly is a natural espionage focused leader and with his vultures can war well early.

Move ZIG. For great justice.

So Ziggy lives in Priesthood. Which means that Code of Laws has less leverage than it usually does. Anybody got clever ideas on how to best take advantage of this?

CoL grants religion, courthouses, caste system, and access to Civil Service. Taking away courthouses still makes it a worthwhile tech. If he delays researching CoL, he'll need to get his religion elsewhere and work in a non-SE economy (which is frankly not a problem early, due to low happy caps).

But let's say Sisiutil whips/chops the Oracle. What free tech could he choose instead of CoL?

* Alphabet. It's available early but is a fairly cheap tech to get with Oracle. The choice for the early spy economy, especially if you can get the Great Wall too.
* Currency. Not a horrible choice, and it would provide an economic boost if we're running a CE or hybrid. Requires Math, though. This choice would mesh nicely with a peaceful / rapid REX strategy.
* Feudalism. Synergizes with Protective nicely and gives a nice warmonger civic, but may not be realistic on Emperor, especially after teching to BW, priesthood, writing, and monarchy first.
* Theology. Gives a religion and warmonger tech, but will require going up Monotheism tree after getting writing. Perhaps not realistic on Emperor.

Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.
Sither or dither?

I hear ya. I still think it would be best to play one game with the new patch but without the Aggressive AI. I had been intending to turn it on for the Ragnar and Shaka games anyway, which are next, after Gilgamesh. And by the sounds of it, depending on how the map turns out, I may not be going for a domination/conquest win, but rather leveraging Sumer's early advantages to claim a large enough empire to work towards a peaceful victory. We'll see.

Sither or dither?

Slytherin? I noticed the typo after it had already been quoted. Shrug, I don't figure one more tyop will soil my legacy.

* Feudalism. Synergizes with Protective nicely and gives a nice warmonger civic, but may not be realistic on Emperor, especially after teching to BW, priesthood, writing, and monarchy first.

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

So this would allow us a caste system switch along with a longbow rush?

Here's an idea why not play an Espionage economy???

Go 100% EP after Alphabet or maybe after Civil Service, it's something definitely different and will mesh well with his UB, and if you get the Great Wall, all the better. You'll still have to cottage though, probably a Hybrid Economy is best, lots of Cottages for research and Merchants for Maintenance.

I haven't play a Full on Espionage only economy so you'll have to do some searching and research for more information.

I say ignore Archery, and make a beeline for Gunpowder and Nationalism for drafted Protective Muskets, if you want ot leverage the Protective trait and it happens that Creative fits well with drafting with cheap Theaters and Coliseums and raising the Culture slider for a quick army produced out of no where (they also ignore walls and castles).

Although you may still want Hunting for spears to defend your UU from Chariots. For the early game let your UU and UB do the magic, The middle ages are for peace economy building and tech beelines maybe a GL for GS for the Liberalism Beeline.

Have you tried playing with No Tech Brokering? I find it's a welcome change to the game.

CoL grants religion, courthouses, caste system, and access to Civil Service. Taking away courthouses still makes it a worthwhile tech. If he delays researching CoL, he'll need to get his religion elsewhere and work in a non-SE economy (which is frankly not a problem early, due to low happy caps).

But let's say Sisiutil whips/chops the Oracle. What free tech could he choose instead of CoL?

* Alphabet. ...
* Currency. ...
* Feudalism. ...
* Theology. ...

Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

Sisiutil, if this is your first Gilgamesh game ever, enjoy. Playing Sumer is a blast.

Ziggurats might cost fewer hammers than courthouses, but they're still expensive. Build the Oracle, since you're getting Priesthood anyway, and take Metal Casting for the forges. Steal the religious techs you don't have with your spies and jaw-dropping espionage lead. Pop Theology with your great prophet.

I would prefer non-aggressive AI, mostly because I'm still adjusting to the patch on monarch. If you do aggressive emperor, I'm gonna be totally bewildered.:crazyeye:

Obviously, it's too early to get despondent about it, but my Flames and Kings are not getting off to a good start. How do you feel about the Oilers and Canucks?

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts? The point of the ALC is to display skillful play and the civilization's traits, no? Goody huts are based on luck, not reproducible skill. Sure, building more scouts gives you a higher chance to get more huts, and presumably the AI also gets some techs from huts, but if you really want to distill the essence of the civ and the strategies you are using, it is better without them. For the scout argument, there is still a great amount of luck involved as you can get 2+ techs a game or get gold/maps or angry barbarians. No skill there, and the techs can be game-making, which dilutes the importance of the human strategy employed. For the equality argument that the AI also gets techs, it's even more equal to just have everyone start out with no goody huts. If you're going to have the map checked to better highlight the civ (which I agree with), then it only makes sense to turn off goody huts, which can only dilute your civ and gameplay.

I would say if you get a gold or gems (or heaven forbid 2) in your BFC, go for a machinery slingshot and spam Xbows since you're protective. Another thing is to build early GW in your cap or w/e city you'd want to produce GSpies, and work a spy specialist to pump out Gspies faster. build your other wonders (oracle) in a 2nd production city so you dont pollute the GP population (unless you wouldnt mind getting a GP). I say ignore CoL for now and go with MC and research alphabet and then move to machinery and just steal all the techs with your GSpies/EP advantage you'd get through Zigs and REXing. you dont have to worry about founding a religion when you can just capture one ;)

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

I agree. getting Feudalism/Machinery/CS is pretty much impossible without at least one or more gold/gem/silver/furs.

Gilgamesh is like Augustus in Warlords, but
a) does everything earlier
b) is balanced.

Like Augustus, you can rush (but earlier), run 2 scientists everywhere, and build Courthouses (but earlier). Either Cottaging or Farming the capital is fine.

Gilgamesh can rush a capital that's farther away than usual. The Vulture lets you get there before a lot of border cities are in the way. The Ziggurat lets you build Forbidden Palace in the foreign capital, solving the distance problem.

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts? The point of the ALC is to display skillful play and the civilization's traits, no? Goody huts are based on luck, not reproducible skill. Sure, building more scouts gives you a higher chance to get more huts, and presumably the AI also gets some techs from huts, but if you really want to distill the essence of the civ and the strategies you are using, it is better without them. For the scout argument, there is still a great amount of luck involved as you can get 2+ techs a game or get gold/maps or angry barbarians. No skill there, and the techs can be game-making, which dilutes the importance of the human strategy employed. For the equality argument that the AI also gets techs, it's even more equal to just have everyone start out with no goody huts. If you're going to have the map checked to better highlight the civ (which I agree with), then it only makes sense to turn off goody huts, which can only dilute your civ and gameplay.

lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.

Protective is a later-game war trait rather than early game. It leverages better once you get Rifling and later: who doesn't like free Drill 1/ City Garrison 1 on their Mechanized Infantry?

What I'd like to see is joining Great Generals to your Vultures as warlords to create super infantry units that get the Drill/ City Garrison once they're upgraded to Rifles. Using warlords, you keep all your experience and upgrade for free: it'll be awesome for your super-promoted Vultures. I recently used warlords with Hannibal and it was really awesome. Infantry gets CR3, March and Commando. My six generals were real monsters and never lost a fight, 99% even attacking from a boat without amphibious onto hills. At 200XP they each had CR1-3, Combat 1-6, Drill 1-4, March, Commando and Leadership. I think joining is just as useful as War Academy and settling- especially since War Academies aren't supposed to work until after Military Tradition.

I'd beeline for Maths or Alphabet + Currency after BW, skipping the rest of the Worker techs until later in tech trade. Between BW, Mining, Wheel and Agriculture you have all the important early Worker functions already. Mining/ BW/ Pottery/ Writing/ Maths/ Currency/ Alphabet/ Mysticism/ Meditation/ Priesthood/ Monarchy/ Feudalism/ Civil Service/ Metal Casting/ Marchinery/ Paper/ Education/ Liberalism/ Printing Press/ Guilds/ Banking/ Economics/ Replacable Parts/ Gunpowder/ Rifling -> just a hard, lean, economy/ liberalism/ infantry beeline, and you can get to Rifling even earlier if you took out the Liberalism path.

I would definitely leave off Priesthood until you are going for Monarchy/ Feudalism. That early, Library >>>> Courthouses.

Cheers,

Dai

I can see 3 interesting options, which are essentially going into the same direction.
In any case, you go for priesthood asap, for early zyggurats.
- option 1 : RExing. best use of the creative trait, IMHO.
- option 2 : rushing everyone with vultures.
- option 3 : using your early zyggurats to fill yourself up in the EP departement. This would require early (through the oracle?) alphabet to work best as a "Spy economy".

In fact, I see no big contradiction in following all 3 directions.
Of course, without caste system, you can't assign merchants, and without currency you can't trade for gold, so the Spy Economy isn't going to win the game if you overexpand.

I guess protective will just allow you to be a bit lower in the defensive departement.

I would like to see the chose religions option on, provided you found one the religions that usually get nowhere (Taoism, Christianity, or Islam).

Have you tried playing with No Tech Brokering? I find it's a welcome change to the game.

Good shout, I always pick this. :goodjob:

So this would allow us a caste system switch along with a longbow rush?

No, you still need CoL for caste system.

I think the benefits of early/cheaper ziggurats are (a) a cheaper, quicker way to get lowered city maintenance and EPs and (b) Gilgamesh can trade/steal CoL instead of beelining it himself.

Ziggurats might cost fewer hammers than courthouses, but they're still expensive. They're the same cost as one knight. They're an easy 2-pop whip after a few turns of regular building.

Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

All true. I just know Sisiutil has done a MC slingshot a few times recently, and I was trying to suggest something that helped with espionage, supported a REX strategy, or gave us a good warmonger civic.

Nothing wrong with MC though.

Sumer = Spycraft

uberfish started a thread about it a while ago:
Sumerian Spy Scam (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5892859)

and you can use protective to aid you, castles give +25% EPs and a trade route so no need for economics for a long time (you can steal it later). So you can make good use of the production bonusses from the protective trait. If you can get stone somehow, these buildings become dirt cheap :).

early game techs: BW, Priesthood, alphabet
mid game: Engineering, nationalism (nationhood = +25 Eps, +2 happy), constitution, democracy (spy buildings)

Would be a game with a cool new BtS strategy and a leader well suited for it.

maybe an axe rush to get some good land, then a spy game would be nice. However, one of the succession game (without patch) showed it was quite unbalanced. If it's still too easy, you will miss the aim of the ALC (demonstrating a leader capacity)...

Protective and Creative are my two least favorite traits. I am sure I will learn much about how to use these traits from this game.

On fractal, big&small, and hemispheres there is a good chance that your nearest neighbor/target will be far away. That would make it hard to feature the Vultures.

Featuring crossbows to turn protective into an aggressive trait is attractive.

The Agg AI setting is more fun. Defense - including coastal defense - is more important. There are more AI v. AI wars. If your power slips, you will be attacked sooner or later.

Yeah, the axerush or vulture rush is a given in this ALC. The old fashioned culture win is the easiest for Gilgamesh.

Yeah, the axerush or vulture rush is a given in this ALC. The old fashioned culture win is the easiest for Gilgamesh.
really? why do you say that?

cheap libraries and theatres, creative trait to start and how close Gilgamesh came in this last ALC..

Aggressive AI can make the game easier or harder.

I think it mostly comes down to who borders who. If you border many AIs, and they don't have as many AIs bordering them, you will likely be attacked early, and likely by more than one foe. This may not be so bad being protective if you can get Great Wall, feudalism for longbows, and have a target city to defend. But it could be deadly if you have a large open border o defend.

If you are on a continent with only 1 AI, or at the end of a continent, bordering only 1, the game could be way too easy. All the AIs war amongst themselves, and you tech to a dominating position.

If the last ALCS had been played with Aggressive AI, you probably would have been toast, likely facing a war on 2 fronts, one with prats that you couldn't win. Switch your starting location with either AI in that game, and it would probably be easy. Whoever gets stuck in the middle loses.

I think Aggressive AI puts a lot more luck into the game by making relative starting locations so much more important. As soon as culture borders get contested, war is likely to break out soon, and if you have too many contested borders, you are likely to get overwhelmed.

The Vulture is very useful UU much more efficient than common axes at early rushes. And the cultural trait makes claiming copper for it easier and faster, though still map dependant.
However comparing the UU to Praets goes a bit to far. After all, swords are just one tech away.



More so vults are vulnerable to standard axes. And while the AI is much less likely to amass axes than a human opponent, i have to agree with prioritising xbows as per the following suggestion:
Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

Xbows provide a good counter to standard axes that would otherwise prove a pain to deal with, even if Drill I/CG I isnt excactly a critical bonus.



I wonder if walls are worth mass building though.

The UB is a bit of extra help, but nothing critical. The EP from them are not enough IMO to justify running a "spy economy". Aiming the second GP to be a spy in the right neighborhood is still a sound strategy.
But, i'd aim the 1st and 3rd as GScientists for an academy and bulbing respectively.

PS: Hemispheres are nice maps to try, but not the most suitable for early rushes, as civs are usually conected but not really close.

I agree with what Porphy's saying Sis. MC should be a priority, as should Crossbows.

Also, Hemispheres for the map type, and Choose Religions. :D

lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.

True, but they don't seem as game-making as popping two important techs before 3000 BC, or suddenly popping an important mid-game tech from a hut on a lost island. And most of the random events involve some sort of choice or action on your part.

Quite a lot has already been said about the new leader of choice.

Gilgamesh might not have the best traits nor the über starting techs, but his UU and UB definitely asked for traits and techs to be like they are.

This being said, I'd surely take a Vulture Rush on a non-protective neighbour or two (that's the beauty of ziggurats: you can support an 8 city empire before the ADs if going on a Food Economy).

That sure makes Mining, BW, Masonry (build GW), AH , Myst, Poly, Priesthood, Writing a likely research path.

It'd be nice to Oracle slingshot Theocracy, but that might be too much. Metal Casting or even Aesthetics are a nice backup plan for the Oracle and using the Oracle generated prophet (if you don't get the GSpy) for bulbing Theocracy shouldn't be ruled off.

As for the Map script, Hemispheres is nice, though I tend to roll starting positions with low commerce and loads of trees with it (but that might be my bad luck showing).

True, but they don't seem as game-making as popping two important techs before 3000 BC, or suddenly popping an important mid-game tech from a hut on a lost island. And most of the random events involve some sort of choice or action on your part.

I understand your point of view, but bear in mind that hut-popping is an important advantage for civs that start with Hunting (which is otherwise a crappy starting tech in most situations), and that the AI can also pop huts.

Also, in previous games, Sis has demonstrated how effective it can be to take a gamble on building a scout to seek out huts, and to send scouts/explorers to grab untouched huts after caravels become available. Since both of these are valid strategic choices in 'normal rules' games, I think it's right that Sis has those opportunities in ALC games.

On fractal, big&small, and hemispheres there is a good chance that your nearest neighbor/target will be far away. That would make it hard to feature the Vultures.



I was thinking the same thing. Actually he could very likely have one neighbor to rush on the same continent, then be alone for a while until Optics. An espionage game would be effective in some regards, but you need to physically get those spies across the ocean, which can be be delayed and more challenging. The Great Spy's infiltrate city mission is almost overpowered, but you will need a neighbor you can get to and who has techs to steal.

A nice way to leverage the protective trait is to take Nationalism from Liberalism, beeline Rifling, then draft an army. Using theocracy and barracks everywhere, drafting a large army of riflemen with 3 promotions each is really powerful. Requires getting a pretty large empire before then which has nice synergy with the early UU and UB.

Z

On a standard size hemispheres map with 2 continents, you will almost always have 2-3 neighbors you can "visit" on land or with coastal/galley access. They are usually not lined up in a linear fashion, either, which tends to happen on the snake-like maps of Fractal and Big & Small.

To be sure, Sisiutil could go with a large Hemispheres map and 2 continents, though I think part of the ALC tradition is to play on Standard size maps.

Hemispheres to me is a more balanced, predictable version of Continents that usually results in larger landmasses.

To leverage the Protective trait on offense you need to make drill promotions more effective. Drill promotions become more effective as your combat rating increases compared to the defending unit. This occurs when attacking units that are from an earlier era or have previously damaged by cats. This suggests an army consisting of cats and bows.

Gilgamesh does seem set up for early expansion, either through rushing neighours or rexing the open spaces. Ziggurats are worth aiming for because city maintenance is pretty high on emperor. If you can get half a dozen cities and a decent tech rate by 1ad you should be in a reasonable position for any victory.

Sisiutil, I've been reading your ALC threads since BTS and they're a lot of fun.

For your next game here are the options I would recommend:

1. No Tech Brokering: this will make technology trading more challenging and strategic, I think it's a must for your games.

2. Hemispheres with 2-3 continents: These maps result in more than 2-3 landmasses (so aren't as predictable as they sound) and ensure not everyone meets one another pre-Optics and trades like crazy.

3. A couple more civs than the default number: If you're playing standard hemispheres I'd suggest 9-10.

Just to throw in two more cents on the Aggressive AI or not argument, here's my personal experience, in case anyone has had something similar.

In Vanilla, I played with Aggressive AI, because they were entirely too passive, both with the human player and each other. After a couple games where there was only war if I started one, the box got checked and I never looked back.

After a couple games on Warlords, Aggressive AI got turned off. Yes, the AI would build larger armies, but it seemed that the increased parity led to fewer (almost zero) AI vs AI wars. At the normal settings, the more peaceful civs wouldn't build up their military as much, and the warlike civs would occasionally- not always, but enough- take a chance and declare war. Yes, that's right-- Aggressive AI led to fewer wars, at least in my experience.

Now with BtS, I haven't played with Aggressive checked because the tech rate for the AI was so clearly screwed. (And most of the players at Emperor or above here were noticing the same thing.) Adding unit cost to already poor research rates felt almost like it would be an exploit, because the human player has always been better at war. Sure, there would be the odd game where I got rushed, but it just didn't feel right, especially if there was a lot of water on the map (Big and Small, say). Now that the patch has fixed some of the worst problems, apparently, I'll go a couple games at normal setting, then see what aggressive looks like-- and check in at CFC for feedback, of course.

Long story short, I don't know that there's enough information about the new patch to warrant switching just yet. What's the rush? Sisiutil doesn't sound as if he's losing steam yet, and another week or two of input (here and at home) might be very helpful. Too personal to be useful, perhaps, but thought it was worth saying.

I've found that Hemisphere Standard size maps tend to have a lot of land. More than Continents anyways. So I'd advise against using a Hemisphere Large map, unless you want there to be a ton of land, and you computer can handle it. One or two extra civs on Hemisphere Standard might be interesting.

Z

Tech Paths have already been suggested, but...
The Wheel and Agriculture will allow quick expansion.
Vulture is enabled by Bronze Working
Ziggurat is enabled by Priesthood.
Thus...
You'll be focusing your tech research in the Mysticism-Mining Tech Family (i.e Religious Techs, Metals, Masonry). This line of research enables 5 Wonders (Temple of Artemis -it think-, The Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Parthenon), 2 resources (Iron and Copper), 3 units (Vulture, Spearman, Swordsman), and a couple other things. Knowing this, I suggest:

Mining-Bronze Working (early military will help prevent Aggressive AI from overrunning Sumer), followed by Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood-Pottery (cottages, Writing)
Build the Oracle and Ziggurats.
Use the Oracle to grab Code of Laws or Metal Casting
If you don't get Oracle, then grab Iron Working anyways, then Writing, Alphabet, trade for improvement techs.

I too would like to see Choose Religions on :)

I too would like to see Choose Religions on :)

don't know if this suggestions has been made or not. I'm short on time and haven't read everything here.

What about trying for the oracle and taking alphabet. I don't know if the GW and oracle are feasible on emperor. If it can pulled off, it would be nice for an espionage economy. Alphabet allows for some early trades to fill in all those gaps to get things rolling and then spies can be built to take advantage of an infiltration (great wall great spy) to start stealing techs.

Looking forward to seeing the vulture in action. Never played as gilg.

All true. I just know Sisiutil has done a MC slingshot a few times recently, and I was trying to suggest something that helped with espionage, supported a REX strategy, or gave us a good warmonger civic.

Nothing wrong with MC though.

Fair enough - good point that the idea with the ALC is to pursue different strategies. If MC just weren't such a great tech, especially in this case. Kill archers with vultures, then kill axes & swords with protective crossbows. (Crossbow promos... Drill II and then D3 or Formation?)

I don't think too many settings should be changed from standard, since part of the purpose of the ALCs is to make some sort of comparison between leaders possible. 3.13 will probably provide enough of a change to the AI compared to the Isabella games, so I'd steer clear of aggressive-AI this time out and see how the new Emperor copes.

Gilgamesh is a nicely balanced leader. Ziggurat's coming with Priesthood rather than CoL is a big bonus in the early to mid game, beacuse it gets you:
Early courthouses.
REX-ability (creative plus low maintenance cities early on).
A head-start on EP against your rival(s).
More freedom in early research priorities.
In this case, the creative trait and the UB work very nicely together because you can keep spreading much longer than you would otherwise do during the initial expansion phase of the game (map-permitting).

Not needing CoL for courthouses also allows you to pursue other techs. Given the tweaks made to the AI in BtS compared to Warlords, my favoured approach with Gilgamesh has been to tech to priesthood, chop the oracle and grab monarchy with it since this can give you a real headstart in city growth vs the AI - something you can really leverage rather than waiting for them to research it and be willing to trade (in which case you'll always be playing catchup in that regard until the war machine takes over).

Population = Power and with the UB unlocked you'll be able to afford more, bigger cities early in the game, which has to be a good thing.

In terms of tech, not needing CoL as early leaves you free to pursue other techs such as calendar and aesthetics/literature, which gives you a shot at some useful wonders and can increase the availability of health and happy into the bargain.

Ironically, I think the main problem with Sumeria is the Vulture being such an early UU because you're so well set up to REX (imperialistic rather than protective would be complete overkill). This leaves us praying for a non-Babylonian/Malinese neighbour to take out in the early game, in which case I'd save all the cities you take (free settlers) and use rapid access to the UB to dig yourself out of the financial mire. In many of the ALC games, you raze cities to refound on the perfectly dot-mapped location hundreds of years later. My gut feeling is that you'll gain more benefit from keeping a city in a slightly suboptimal location and having it available sooner, especially with the Ziggurat to lighten the cost.

Long-term goals are really map dependent and probably not worth dwelling on here since UU and UB are so early on the tech tree.

I haven't read all posts but here are some ideas on GILG

1) He starts with agr + wheel. What he can tech will largely depend on the lanscape but I think he can adapt to almost anything. Unless he has alot of forrests I would go hunting/AH/archery/Pottery, otherwise Mining/BW.
2) Ziggurats come with Priesthood but he also needs three techs to open it up. The problem is those three techs have no real advantage (you do not need Monuments).
3) GILG can overexpand real fast because of the creative trait and can maintain that with fast Ziggurats as well as a very early forbidden palace (needs only 4 Zigs if I am correct). Very nice to cut off distant AIs but found a city with food/forrests, grow fast and whip/chop the last Zig and FP.
4) Unless you want the religion, I would favor currency ASAP and only get COL via a trade.
5) I see GILGAMESH as a very peaceful but agressive expander. Early archery for fast archers and use the hammers for settlers.

Just some ideas, sorry If I have repeated anything.

Ok, I've been trying the Theology slingshot with Gilgamesh and I must say I've succeeded 3/3 in Monarch/Hemispheres. I might try it later at Emperor to see if it's still doable.

Game one I had Marble in a quite convenient spot for a second city (2crabs+corn+marble). Game two I popped Mining and Writing from Huts. Game 3 I had one Gold mine. All three starts were forest (8+) and hill heavy (3+) with 2 food resources (at least).

In none of those starts I had bronze reasonably near to settle my second/third city. Horses were easier, but also quite far.

In all of the starts I had an AI's Capitol at 10-18 distance from my Capitol (Zara/Justinian/Ragnar).

I think I'll keep playing save #3 getting to Machinery/Bureaucracy whilst playing a la Obsolete (as three of my cities are high hammer and I do have quite some commerce going)

I really would like to see a more spy active system. I remember a tech steal game some other people did on emporer.

Just played an emperor game with Gilgamesh (version 3.13)

Here are some of my thought´s of the leader, UU, UB etc.

First of all, the UU is VERY good early on. I was lucky to get the random event with Shock promotions for all my "axemen" :eek:

First thought, this is great !
Thought´s after the game; that event won the game for me. So if you get lucky with this event aswell, either remake the game or go rush your enemy´(s) as they have no chance.

Here the UB comes in very handy and helps your eco big time. Though the +2:espionage: only helped me in the way, that i did not fall behind in espionage points.

The protective trait is very nice for semi early war.... If you get Crossbow men together with the UU the AI will be struggling in wartimes.


I got my first tech stolen by the AI !!!!!!!!!! it grabed literature from me :eek:

This is just one of the things that prove the AI have improved, along with greater tech rate i´ve encountered in my game.

part of the benefit of courthouses is that you can run early spy specialists. run them in your GPP producing cities and try and pump out as many Gspies for infiltration or of course settle them so you can still spread your EPs to everyone and dominated them on the spy playing field

I understand your point of view, but bear in mind that hut-popping is an important advantage for civs that start with Hunting (which is otherwise a crappy starting tech in most situations), and that the AI can also pop huts.

Also, in previous games, Sis has demonstrated how effective it can be to take a gamble on building a scout to seek out huts, and to send scouts/explorers to grab untouched huts after caravels become available. Since both of these are valid strategic choices in 'normal rules' games, I think it's right that Sis has those opportunities in ALC games.

I can accept that, but I still think getting techs from huts is a broken game mechanic. You don't need to scout aggressively to get two important techs. It's the equivalent of starting with a gold mine; everyone agrees that it is a much easier start, and sometimes you can already have two free techs in the first several turns in the critical early development phase. It shouldn't be a problem, but if we get some big techs early on and are able to get a wonder that we probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise or are able to rush a neighor 20 turns sooner, we will have to discount the effect of our own direct control and strategy somewhat and that's why I feel it goes against the ALC. But it's just something that I can do in my own games if people want it in; we don't need to talk about it more.

part of the benefit of courthouses is that you can run early spy specialists. run them in your GPP producing cities and try and pump out as many Gspies for infiltration or of course settle them so you can still spread your EPs to everyone and dominated them on the spy playing field

trading techs asap might be getting important now, if you want to get something for them!:eek:

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts?
Nope. I like them. They're fun. Sometimes I get great hut luck, sometimes it's mediocre, and sometimes it just sucks. That's part of the game. And the higher the level, the more often the AI beats me to more of them anyway.
lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.
That too. Plus they're fun. Did I mention that?
Sumer = Spycraft

uberfish started a thread about it a while ago:
Sumerian Spy Scam (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5892859)

and you can use protective to aid you, castles give +25% EPs and a trade route so no need for economics for a long time (you can steal it later). So you can make good use of the production bonusses from the protective trait. If you can get stone somehow, these buildings become dirt cheap :).

early game techs: BW, Priesthood, alphabet
mid game: Engineering, nationalism (nationhood = +25 Eps, +2 happy), constitution, democracy (spy buildings)

Would be a game with a cool new BtS strategy and a leader well suited for it.
That's a cool idea, I may try it. I say "may" because it's somewhat map dependent. I played a hemispheres map on the weekend where I started on a landmass with Monty, who was immediately terminated with extreme prejudice. That left me pretty much isolated for a long time, so I would have been unable to "infiltrate" anybody.
1. No Tech Brokering: this will make technology trading more challenging and strategic, I think it's a must for your games.

2. Hemispheres with 2-3 continents: These maps result in more than 2-3 landmasses (so aren't as predictable as they sound) and ensure not everyone meets one another pre-Optics and trades like crazy.

3. A couple more civs than the default number: If you're playing standard hemispheres I'd suggest 9-10.
I don't know about tech brokering just yet--maybe after we see how the new patch plays out. I'll keep it in mind. I like your suggestions on the map, but I'll probably stick with the standard number of civs. To be honest, starting with an early UU next to a whole bunch of potential victims feels kind of unbalanced.

Obviously, it's too early to get despondent about it, but my Flames and Kings are not getting off to a good start. How do you feel about the Oilers and Canucks?
Don't really follow hockey anymore, sorry. :(

I am wondering how much differences are there between Monach and Emperor. I just recently attempted my first Emperor game with Aggressive AI and Ragging Barb turned on. Got trashed. :eek: Got boxed pretty quick without those two turned on as well whilst I can win easily on Monach doing SE.

The most obvious evidence in favour of this is the unique unit. Vultures have one more strength than the Axemen they replace; the price they pay for this is a loss of half the 50% bonus regular Axemen get versus melee units. I should think, though, that the increase in strength more than makes up for it, especially since the Vulture is most likely to be going up against Archers, the AI's favourite early defensive unit.

Vultures have NO price at all. They are strictly stronger units.

5*1.5 = 7.5 versus melee
6*1.25 = 7.5 versus melee

Vultures have NO price at all. They are strictly stronger units.

5*1.5 = 7.5 versus melee
6*1.25 = 7.5 versus melee

sorry to say so, but this is a wrong calculation
* vulture attacking an axe is 6 vs 5*1.25= 6.25, axe "wins"
* axe attacking a vulture is 5 vs 6/1.25=4.8, axe "wins"

He is propably talking about vultures against archers I guess. Otherwise yeah he is wrong. I am very curious to see how well the vultures do against the archers.

He is propably talking about vultures against archers I guess. Otherwise yeah he is wrong. I am very curious to see how well the vultures do against the archers.
vultures vs archers is clearly better than axe vs archers, no contest here.
vultures vs warriors or swords are clear winners too, no problem here.
It's just that you don't want your opponent to fill his cities with axemen.

You talk about different situations, therefore your calculations are not comparable.
Actually, there are 3 cases:

1) axe versus vulture
2) axe or vulture versus melee unit (like sword, spear without bonus against melee)
3) axe or vulture versus other unit (where only basic strength matters)
3b) axe or vulture versus non-melee unit with bonus against melee
this is a subcase of 3, the ratio is the same because the negative bonus affects both.


1:
5 vs 6/1.25 = 4.8 ratio: 1.04

axe/vulture ratio: 1.04

2:
5 vs 6(sword)/1.5 = 4 ratio: 1.25
6 vs 6(sword)/1.25 = 4.8 ratio: 1.25

axe/vulture ratio: 1.00

3:
5 vs 3(archer) ratio: 1.67
6 vs 3(archer) ratio: 2.00

axe/vulture ratio: 0.83

subcase3b:
5/2 =2.5 vs 4(chariot) ratio: 0.625
6/2 =3.0 vs 4(chariot) ratio: 0.75

axe/vulture ratio: 0.83


Summary: against each other, the axe is slightly better,
against other melee units, both are equal
against all other units, the vulture is better because of his higher base strength.

Aggressive AI can make the game easier or harder.

If you are on a continent with only 1 AI, or at the end of a continent, bordering only 1, the game could be way too easy. All the AIs war amongst themselves, and you tech to a dominating position.

Slightly OT but I'm just playing my first game with Aggressive AI and I must say I'm slightly disappointed. I do admit that I started at the end of the continent but the land was quite poor and Gilgamesh was very close to my Spain (I only managed to settle 2 cities in addition to my capital before Gilgamesh had me cornered with his Creative trait). Obviously I was teching quite slowly but I still managed to keep about on par with AI. Also Giggles was in good relations with his other neighbour.

When I finally attacked, I took 2 cities easily with just a bunch of Axes and couple of Spears to keep Chariots at bay. After 10 turns of peace Giggles attacked me with a stack of 1 Chariot, 2 Vultures, 1 Sword and 1 Catapult (and boy, how did he attack - Chariot and Vultures kill themselves against my Axes and Spears while Swords and the Catapult just camp in the woods)!

After I got Catapults I just rolled over his cities. For example on 520 AD his capital was defended by 1 Archer, 1 Horse Archer and 1 Spear (this after him being in war for about 10-15 turns, never making any major assaults and me just waiting to finish Construction)! I was really expecting to see bigger armies but honestly I didn't see much difference to normal AI. This was on Monarch with BtS.

So based on my very limited experience the jump from normal to aggressive AI is not nearly as big as some are suggesting (whether that should encourage Sis to use it now or not is a bit unclear to me :crazyeye: ).

Bah, I was hoping you'd go for No Tech Brokering. Have you tried using this in an offline game? Seriously, it makes the game much better. If you don't use it, once one Civ has a tech, they all get it, no?

I have noticed that tech trading is a big part of your game, and ever since No Tech Brokering has been available, I've always wondered how you'd cope if you used it. Maybe for the ALC after this one?

You're missing a case of melee with bonuses, Belisar.
Eg. swordsman with C1 + Shock + 3 turns of fortify (=+15%). This would give the sword +50%.

Axe vs. sword+50% = 5/6 -> ratio 0.833
Vulture vs sword+50% = 6/7.5 -> ratio 0.800
-> axe/vulture ratio 1.04 (same as axe vs. vulture)

In most cases of vs. melee, axe is better. In some cases vulture reaches axe. This all depends on how much bonuses are applied - you just happened to pick the case that is best possible for vulture :)

I think with base strength of 6 Vulture would need +35% or so against melee to be exactly as good as axe in majority of cases (again fringe cases could lead to vulture being better even).

But the Vulture is much better in two important cases:
1) The Vulture is a much better City Raider than an Axeman;
2) The Vulture defends against Mounted Units (see Chariots) better than an Axeman.

One observation I noticed with BTS 3.13, the AIs tech alot faster than 3.03 with solvers unofficial patch. Something to consider, Gilgamesh's emperor AI tech speed is gonna be different than ISabella II's AI tech speed.

Indeed, Vulture is better oriented towards city raider tasks where axe is better counter. Vulture won't lose much to sword when it comes to city attacks - sword has only the +10% innate city attack bonus compared to Vulture's +25% vs melee.

Maybe I subconsciously recalled the ALC order but last week I played out a few Gilgamesh starts.

I haven't played a full game as Gilgamesh but just from playing out the start, he has a lot of excellent early game options. Which is great - don't get me wrong. But too many option can be a bit overwhelming. I doubt it will be a problem, your play is pretty strong now and the ALC crowd will keep you in line if you wander too far off the path, but it's something to keep in mind.

Creative is clearly the stronger trait in the early game. There are a lot of projects clamoring for hammers and not spending them on monuments or missionaries is crucial. Pushing your borders out further also helps get your troops closer to the front line before actually declaring war.

Gil can either peacefully REX, or aggressively REX, and it's great to have that flexibility. The trap you want to avoid is building up your cities too much. You can should be able to grab your first and maybe second city sites quickly, but don't stop there. I think the people advocating pushing your economy to the brink are onto the right path with Gil.
You can get close to collapse and definitely dig your way out. Obviously watch out and don't expand far beyond your means, but the safety net is much bigger than you may be used too.
You can whip cheap libraries or more expensive courthouses, and both are great tools for getting your economy humming.

Pottery is a good early priority - I was lucky to pop it from an early hut in 2 of the games I played. I found that copper wasn't nearby in any of the games I played, but a few cottages made getting Iron Working a definite possibility before I founded city 3 in a normal timeframe.

Pray for farmable resources, not fish or animals. Having to research fishing can kind of screw up the early game. You really want to put early hammers into workers - for mining, chopping, farming, roading, and cottaging. Researching Mining->BW isn't that bad, but Fishing->Mining->BW seems much longer. At least you have the Wheel already to hook up resources but it's not usually a problem to grab it after you discover where the hidden resources are.

Ziggurats: I know I was tempted to research and build them ultra-early, just because I could, but I think that was a mistake. A Ziggurat is 9/10ths of a settler.
You don't need to research Myst->Med/Poly->Priesthood early. It's a quick path, particularly if you grab Pottery early and have a few cottages. I think, more importantly, it gives you the flexibility to pursue Iron Working early if you don't have copper. This works even better if you start in/near the jungle. You'll want workers to clear jungle/build cottages and to get your cities up and running.

Honestly I'm not sure what I would do if I started with Stone/Marble nearby. So many hammers and worker turns are already accounted for before you even get started.

I've seen a few topics about Horizontal vs Vertical expansion recently - I think Gilgamesh is the essense of horizontal expansion. If you have farmable resources then your tech needs are basically nil, so value production and food above all else. If you have a great commerce spot nearby that's terrific, and don't ignore it, but you don't need to get a tech lead to have an edge over the AI - Creative plus the Vulture and Ziggurant effectively give you a tech and production edge, coming earlier and costing fewer hammers.
None of that is earthshaking, I just wanted to share so you don't fall into the trap I did and build up my first three cities early without pushing my expansion out.

You are Gilgamesh, King of all you survey! Don't let another civ beat you to whatever you want, or if they do, have your Vultures rip it from their corpses. Or your spies steal it from them without them even realizing what's happened.

You're missing a case of melee with bonuses, Belisar.
Eg. swordsman with C1 + Shock + 3 turns of fortify (=+15%). This would give the sword +50%.

Axe vs. sword+50% = 5/6 -> ratio 0.833
Vulture vs sword+50% = 6/7.5 -> ratio 0.800
-> axe/vulture ratio 1.04 (same as axe vs. vulture)


You can get additional bonuses for an axe as well as a vulture and also for the units they are up against.

Yes, Belisar. Exactly what I meant. My example certainly was a bad one - I just wanted to show one where axe again is better against melee. I believe that will be the case always when the net modifier is zero or positive in the opponent of axe/vulture. Meaning: Axe is better against melee than vulture, in many or most cases in my rough guess but I haven't bothered to consider all possible cases.

Okay, ALL.

It appears the consensus is a espionage-intensive game coupled with early conquest to max out the benefits of Gilgamesh's UU and UB.
Next, Map seems to be the next issue.
I haven't been tracking the BTS maps, but hasn't Sisutil been using Fractal?
If so, it should be kept that way. Thus, we might see what could happen to an isolated Sumer. Also, random landmasses are very interesting.
As for Options:
No Tech Brokering
Assuming this means no tech trading, I suggest this is turned off.
Tech trading is a huge part of the Civ experience, and turning it off doesn't really teach much, since techs are a vital part of diplomacy. Even though tech trading may make the game 'easier', it still is somewhat essential. Plus, new players checkin' out the ALCs may not learn as much.
Aggressive AI
I guess this would work. The Monarch and above AI is pretty aggressive already, so not to much of a difference. I tried it today and found out all the AIs have one less starting diplomacy (Gandhi is Cautious, Isabella is Annoyed).

I think i've hit on the major points of this area of gameplay. Let me know if I missed anything and feel free to comment!

Gilgamesh is not going to play with axes in this ALC. Not being as vulnerable to chariots is a big plus over axes and being as strong as swords lessons the need for iron as the resource or the tech as a priority.

There's another thread claiming you can found 6 cities in 24 turns. Now Gilgamesh is a ruler I think you could try to do that with because his Ziggurat comes along so early. I'd like to see Sisiutil try.

Gilgamesh is not going to play with axes in this ALC. Not being as vulnerable to chariots is a big plus over axes and being as strong as swords lessons the need for iron as the resource or the tech as a priority.

There's another thread claiming you can found 6 cities in 24 turns. Now Gilgamesh is a ruler I think you could try to do that with because his Ziggurat comes along so early. I'd like to see Sisiutil try.

That sounds like a Joao stunt. Or is that up and running cities?

As for Options:
No Tech Brokering
Assuming this means no tech trading, I suggest this is turned off.
Tech trading is a huge part of the Civ experience, and turning it off doesn't really teach much, since techs are a vital part of diplomacy. Even though tech trading may make the game 'easier', it still is somewhat essential. Plus, new players checkin' out the ALCs may not learn as much.

no tech trading means nobody can trade techs at all (stealing is still an option). no tech brokering means that you can trade only techs that you researched yourself, not those you got in trade. you can "safely" trade/sell techs to the AI knowing they can't hand it around to everybody else. the AI is programmed to consider this factor and they won't take trades at times that they consider the "i can trade this" benefit better than "i can get this from somebody else's beakers".

i haven't tried either but i assume that makes a big difference.

one "is this a bug or a feature" mystery is that you can trade techs that you stole from another player and never researched yourself. if this game has a heavy emphasis on spies to leverage zigs, that probably would have a bigger impact than in a "normal" game.

i'm curious to watch this game option in action, but like you i'm hesitant about the showcase being an ALC. i'm sure there's more than one SG that used the option. following traditional SGs isn't usually as fun as taking part in the ALCs, but i love that part of the intent of ALCs is to learn, and that we can contribute/ask questions without feeling like an intruder in a team's thread.

Okay, ALL.

No Tech Brokering
Assuming this means no tech trading, I suggest this is turned off.


It just means that you, or the AI, can't trade techs that wasn't researched. Meaning that if anyone traded for, say, iron working, they can't trade it. No third party tech trading.
It makes it easier to keep a tech monopoly, and, in my limited experience, is more of a hamper for the AI than the player.

Edit: Curses! Beaten to the quote by a giggling permanoob!

;)

The question of whether axemen or vultures are better against melee is complicated. As Elandal pointed out other bonuses that are applicable to a particular battle will change the odds that the two units would face.

Consider three cases where the axe/vulture is defending against a sword:

Case 1: No promos and no defensive bonus
Axe: 6 vs. 7.5 (5 + 50%)
Vulture: 6 vs. 7.5 (6 + 25%)
The two perform equally.

Case 2: Sword has Combat1 and Shock promos; no promos or defensive bonus for the defender
Axe: 6.6 vs. 6.25 (5 + 25%)
Vulture: 6.6 vs. 6 (6 + 0%)
The axe has better odds.

Case 3: No promos; 50% defensive bonus
Axe: 6 vs 10 (5 + 100%)
Vulture: 6 vs 10.5 (6 + 75%)
The vulture has better odds.

Which one performs better will depend on the particular battle, but generally speaking there shouldn't be much difference in their performance against melee. Of course the vulture will definitely do better against all non-melee.

I just wanted to show one where axe again is better against melee. I believe that will be the case always when the net modifier is zero or positive in the opponent of axe/vulture.

That's what I originally thought, but when you look at the actual numbers the vulture does better whenever either attacker or defender has a much higher modifier than the unit they're fighting. Regarding the last case I detailed above it seems clear that as the defensive bonus increases the vulture would gain a greater advantage over the axe. What's not intuitive is that if the sword has a much greater bonus the vulture would still do better. Consider these cases where a sword is attacking a city defended by a vulture/axe with no defensive modifiers available:

Case 4: CR1 Sword
Axe: 6 vs 6 (5 + 20%)
Vulture 6 vs 5.714(6 - 5% or 6/1.05)

Case 5: CR2 Sword
Axe: 6 vs 4.762(5 - 5% or 5/1.05)
Vulture 6 vs 4.615(6 - 30% or 6/1.3)

Case 6: CR3 Sword
Axe: 6 vs 3.704(5 - 35% or 5/1.35)
Vulture 6 vs 3.75(6 - 60% or 6/1.60)

Case 7: Combat1, Shock, CR3 Sword
Axe: 6.6 vs 3.125(5 - 60% or 5/1.6)
Vulture 6.6 vs 3.243(6 - 85% or 6/1.85)

As the sword gets better the vulture does better relative to the axe. Not what I expected. :crazyeye:

B]No Tech Brokering[/B] doesn't strictly limit trading to techs not researched. It disallows trading of techs you have received in trade (be that fair or unfair, asking nicely or demanding, taking in peace or giving something more material in return).
What you can thus trade with NTB turned on:
- Techs researched self
- Techs stolen via espionage
- Techs found from huts
- Techs received by Oracle or Liberalism
- Techs received by lightbulbing
- any other means that do not acquire the tech from another player (AI) via trade screen

@Validator
Not what I expected either. I guess I'll have to work out how the combat really works - probably I'll find some neat curve that has some disjoint at zero.

It makes it easier to keep a tech monopoly, and, in my limited experience, is more of a hamper for the AI than the player.

No Tech Brokering is actually a hamper to the human player, especially those that trade techs heavily, because:

- When you discover a tech and trade it for new techs, you cannot then broker away those new techs to another AI to leap ahead in the tech tree. Basically, you cannot exploit situations in which two AI's are not trading their techs with each other by doing the buy/sell for them and getting ahead. Note that this happens way too common with the default trading option because most AI's have tons of excuses not to trade (attitude, WFYABTA, % known etc.) and a heavy-trading human is essentially like Mansa and takes unfair advantage of this.

- You cannot sell techs to the AI that the AI has partially researched and make easy money. The AI won't accept techs they have started researching because once they buy the tech they cannot trade it away. Same goes for the human player too of course, it forces you to think strategically about buying/trading for techs that you already started researching.

- You cannot always count on acquiring a tech through trading (even when it's well-spread) because it is common that your main rival who hates you will have discovered it first and traded it to his friends, but the friends cannot trade it to you so you have to research it yourself or wait for others to research it.

Finally, regardless of whether people think it's an advantage or disadvantage to the human player, no tech brokering leads to much more diversified tech inventories across players, which in my opinion makes the game more competitive.

I, personally, prefer to play with No Tech Brokering on. I find that trading opportunities or the techs I need are much rarer. Finding markets for your monopoly tech is as easy as ever - the pickings are much, much slimmer.

Diplomacy becomes a much bigger factor: you were hoping to trade for Code of Laws? Turns out Izzy is the only rival that actually researched it, and she happens to follow another faith. . .

The popular strategy of trading for filler techs is a little riskier.

This actually leads into Gilgamesh and an Espionage-heavy game quite well: with this option, the earlier you can find out what your friends are researching (so you know what you can trade for later) is very important.

Case 7: Combat1, Shock, CR3 Sword
Axe: 6.6 vs 3.125(5 - 60% or 5/1.6)
Vulture 6.6 vs 3.243(6 - 85% or 6/1.85)

As the sword gets better the vulture does better relative to the axe. Not what I expected. :crazyeye:

Better, yes. But at that part of the curve I don't think it matters very much. Even if the difference caught a jump point, at that scale the jump is going to be small.

Here is a quick graph to illustrate additional bonuses.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/30880/test1.jpg
Purple is vulture, blue axe.
x is the defense bonus of the sword, negative means bonus for the axe/vulture.
Y is the ratio axe or vulture versus sword.
At x=0 both perform equal, for high defense bonuses (more than 75%) the vulture is better,
if the axe/vulture gets a bonus (negative x) the vulture profits more.
In the middle range (0-75% bonus for the sword) the axe performs better.

Finally, regardless of whether people think it's an advantage or disadvantage to the human player, no tech brokering leads to much more diversified tech inventories across players, which in my opinion makes the game more competitive.
Yes, that's it! It also makes each game different from the last. Hurrah!

That sounds like a Joao stunt. Or is that up and running cities?

Theoretical duiscusion as far as I remember,though Joao might try it. Ithink Gilgamesh would be able to afford it better becxause he has Ziggurats at Priesthood that act as Courthouses. The popuilations would be 1s and 2s.

Bah, I was hoping you'd go for No Tech Brokering. Have you tried using this in an offline game? Seriously, it makes the game much better. If you don't use it, once one Civ has a tech, they all get it, no?

I have noticed that tech trading is a big part of your game, and ever since No Tech Brokering has been available, I've always wondered how you'd cope if you used it. Maybe for the ALC after this one?
I'll consider it in the future. It sounds like an interesting variation. I suggest moving this debate over to the ALC Bullpen thread.

In the meantime, I've begun the ALC Game 19 thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6038117). Go to it!

your thinking that the ai's all trade with each other is very wrong... Even if they do have trade available they might not trade with each other cause they don't like each other or similar. No tech trading makes the game actually harder instead of easier once the ai get loads of reaserch bonuses since it means you can't take advantage of their reaserch speed to fund your trading.