With all the new unhealthiness, once I get oil/uranium I normally windmill any coal resource in my territory. It is like popping a Hospital into every city as it loses 3 :yuck:


Is there any reason to keep coal, other than power plants, (which could be hydro or nuke for that matter) after you have combustion? The extra production from the 2-3 mines and IW I have seems like a poor return on my investment.

No railroads. No bonus for Mining Inc. And coal is a really powerful and useful trade tool. Mine it, and trade for two or three resources to some other guy if you hate it so much.

railroad also works with oil, so coal isn't really needed for that once you get oil.

A plain hill with a railroad and a near by river and a levee can give you 8 hammers. add factory and power and forge and that is 16 hammers. add Mining Inc and you get even more bonus hammers.

unhealthiness is not that bad - its hammer time dude so get mining! lol

I was aking myself the same question last game I played, and I think you can still get the hammers and not suffer health penalty the as long as you dont build a connection to it. That is, do not do this until you got oil !

someone pls correct me if I'm wrong.

I was aking myself the same question last game I played, and I think you can still get the hammers and not suffer health penalty the as long as you dont build a connection to it. That is, do not do this until you got oil !

someone pls correct me if I'm wrong.

that's true, but you can't pillage roads in your borders. coal is revealed so late that chances are you have a road on the hill already.

i traded away all my coal in a fairly recent game. i didn't want the :yuck:s and i didn't want the AIs building nuke plants. then again, i've also been known to pillage my own uranium mines and oil wells temporarily so that i can make privateers long after they're obsolete :mischief:. so i'm not exactly an example of normal :crazyeye:

The health loss is easily compensated by the work offset. Trade for some healthy resources, or just one/two/three turn that hospital.

It does seem that way.

What's strange is that Coal was only used becuase of the amazing upsides- if it will have costs independant of my using it, it should have bonuses independant of my using it as well.

I've sometimes deprived myself of Oil when going for a spaceship win. You can defend yourself with marines + artillery, later mechs; and if you do get invaded of course you take your Oil back immediately.

I always build coal plants, however, as they're the first available.

peace,
lilnev

For me, spending too much time managing unhealthiness = not fun. Buldings who's only purpose is to provide a few health bonuses are not fun to build. I have a hard time as seeing them as anything other than a waste of precious hammers.

Unhealthiness got pretty annoying with BTS. I'm not even sure the changes were really needed.
I don't understand why they added so much unhealthiness. Was it to make environmentalism more interesting?
If that was the case, they missed their shot because they nerfed the trait by adding a 25% cost to corporation. I know it may be realistic, but that is still a very big deterrent to using this civic.

BTW, you know what is really unrealistic? It is the fact that unhealthiness usually becomes a big problem during the industrial and contemporary period. Before that, it is usually (this is all very situational I agree) a minor or a mild annoyance.
It may sound odd, but think about it:
People in the 20th and 21th centuries are much more healthy than the were back in the days.
Yes, there is more pollution and all, but we also live to be 80-90-100 years old. Infancy death rate is much lower, Hygiene is much better, etc.

An History teacher of mine at University told me that, according to accounts of Middle Ages writers, you could literally smell big cities before you could actually see them... That is unhealthy!!!!!

With all the new unhealthiness, once I get oil/uranium I normally windmill any coal resource in my territory. It is like popping a Hospital into every city as it loses 3 :yuck:


Is there any reason to keep coal, other than power plants, (which could be hydro or nuke for that matter) after you have combustion? The extra production from the 2-3 mines and IW I have seems like a poor return on my investment.

Hey man, go with your moral obligation to protect the environment. DOWN WITH COAL! Let's burn it all...

wait, that's not what you want.

Yeah, I could care less about coal, except for ironworks production.

For me, spending too much time managing unhealthiness = not fun. Buldings who's only purpose is to provide a few health bonuses are not fun to build. I have a hard time as seeing them as anything other than a waste of precious hammers.

Unhealthiness got pretty annoying with BTS. I'm not even sure the changes were really needed.
I don't understand why they added so much unhealthiness. Was it to make environmentalism more interesting?
If that was the case, they missed their shot because they nerfed the trait by adding a 25% cost to corporation. I know it may be realistic, but that is still a very big deterrent to using this civic.

BTW, you know what is really unrealistic? It is the fact that unhealthiness usually becomes a big problem during the industrial and contemporary period. Before that, it is usually (this is all very situational I agree) a minor or a mild annoyance.
It may sound odd, but think about it:
People in the 20th and 21th centuries are much more healthy than the were back in the days.
Yes, there is more pollution and all, but we also live to be 80-90-100 years old. Infancy death rate is much lower, Hygiene is much better, etc.

An History teacher of mine at University told me that, according to accounts of Middle Ages writers, you could literally smell big cities before you could actually see them... That is unhealthy!!!!!

Well, I think the unhealthiness is a cumulative look at a population's general health level and pollution. It's just super simplified for game play purposes. I don't actually mind the changes, I like mixing up my strategy.

do'oh i forgot you cant pillage roads :p

Sometimes I feel that I do rather keep the population for specialists than having the increased production. Sometimes I fuel an enormous arms buildup with Coal Plants and Railroads and start a world war. Either way, you can allways disconnect/trade away Coal once it is not needed anymore.

In a way, it's realistic. Some developed countries in the real world are trying to reduce their use of coal, in order to reduce pollution. Also, as someone else once pointed out on these forums, if Margaret Thatcher were added as a modern leader, she'd pillage all of her own coal mines. See? It's very realistic in the modern world! :lol:

lol @ the thatcher comment.

I don't really mind, I normally try and get the Three Gorges anyway.. and by the time oil comes along.. it is superfluous.

If I cannot sort out city health with all the buildings alone, I am not that interested in deleting my accesable resources to suit. I'd rather trade it off, but wouldn't want the AI to have that advantage anyway.

If I cannot sort out city health with all the buildings alone, I am not that interested in deleting my accesable resources to suit. I'd rather trade it off, but wouldn't want the AI to have that advantage anyway.

Advantage? You're selling them +3:yuck:! :lol:

Coal plant, the production is well worth the hammers. Every time, immediately powers them factories.

I so strongly disagree here.

I mean, the least you should do is TRADE your mined coal to other civs. You can get 3 resources, for just one coal.

I don't understand how you can say that the work isn't worth it. At that point in the game, you should be able to crank out any health related building in 3 turns or less. Coal related buildings should only be in your production cities anyway. 3 turns for a hospital is a drop in the bucket when you look at the big picture. Those three turns of work are far and away worth the 25% increase in work, the two engineers from an industrial park, and the work you get from coal.

railroad also works with oil, so coal isn't really needed for that once you get oil.

wow...i didnt believe it until i tried it in worldbuilder.

when did this change?? i could've sworn railroads required coal AND iron

Let me get this straight, you get base unhealthiness from coal even if it's not being used in a powerplant?

If you have a factory, yep. I must admit, while I like the idea of access to a resource causing unhealthiness, I'm uneasy that you don't get any benefit in return. Sure, it does cause unhealthiness in real life, but there's a reason we keep burning it regardless.

Same goes for oil. Okay, if your citizens have access to it, they're going to drive cars and create smog, but it's not like they only do it to generate the unhealthiness. The availability of personal transport makes people happier and wealthier. If anything ought to give you a commerce bonus, it's oil.

If you have a factory, yep. I must admit, while I like the idea of access to a resource causing unhealthiness, I'm uneasy that you don't get any benefit in return. Sure, it does cause unhealthiness in real life, but there's a reason we keep burning it regardless.

Same goes for oil. Okay, if your citizens have access to it, they're going to drive cars and create smog, but it's not like they only do it to generate the unhealthiness. The availability of personal transport makes people happier and wealthier. If anything ought to give you a commerce bonus, it's oil.

If it's not giving a bonus it shouldn't generate unhealthiness, that makes absolutely no sense.

If they think it warrants a higher health penalty when being used, sure, slap a higher penalty on a coal power plant and the iron works. But don't just apply and arbitrary penalty with no benefit.

actually there is a benefit, else we would to just destroy the mine and build something else.

For me, spending too much time managing unhealthiness = not fun. Buldings who's only purpose is to provide a few health bonuses are not fun to build. I have a hard time as seeing them as anything other than a waste of precious hammers.

BTW, you know what is really unrealistic? It is the fact that unhealthiness usually becomes a big problem during the industrial and contemporary period. Before that, it is usually (this is all very situational I agree) a minor or a mild annoyance.
It may sound odd, but think about it:
People in the 20th and 21th centuries are much more healthy than the were back in the days.
Yes, there is more pollution and all, but we also live to be 80-90-100 years old. Infancy death rate is much lower, Hygiene is much better, etc.

Don't you think one of the reasons we have better health now is BECAUSE we have good hospitals? I think if cities didn't build hospitals, there would be people sick and dying all over the place, and life expectancy would plummet.
So needing buildings for their health bonus seems kinda realistic to me. Or at least the CIV equivalent of realistic.
:)

If only the hospital provided a +5 health bonus...

Coal's benefit in real life is that it's cheap and plentiful, unlike oil which rarer and harder to extract once you find it. So coal gives you an easy production boost, and a bad cough.

So to be "realistic" the game should make coal abundant, but unhealthy. It should make oil rare, and more useful and healthier than coal. I'm pretty sure that's how it is, too... :D

I also thought for a while that oil tiles should provide commerce, but i guess you can sell it to get that cash.

PS Railroads running on oil came in with BTS.

PPS People are healthier today largely due to better medical knowledge, better hospitals and medicines, better water and sewage services, and better and more varied food. These outweigh the modern day negatives of smog, industrial pollution, lack of exercise etc, making us healthier overall than our great-grandparents.