18 months ago, we had a system for deciding important stuff. This is an attempt to revive it, or at least embarrass RegentMan and Ginger_Ale into taking over the discussion.

Unofficial Game Poll

Instructions: Anyone can and should start a thread in their team forum with this discussion so they can discuss among themselves. Please discuss how we should upgrade from the following options:

Keep patch 1.61 for the next few months.
Upgrate to patch 1.74 with some kind of Cossack mod.
Upgrade to patch 1.74 with no mods.

Please discuss the pros/cons of each style, and then decide which method will work best for the Civ4 MTDG. After your team has decided, your UN representative can come to this thread and cast their vote.

Are we talking about 1.74 pre 3.13 or 1.74 post 3.13 here? (:crazyeye:)

I made this offer in the other thread.

Ok in an attempt to get this game moving how does this offer sound to piffle.

For the reduction of the cossak bonus against other horses will agree to wear it on the chin with no extra units or any other modding of the game. In exchange we ask for a 15 turn ceasefire to adjust to the new situation.

Is that suitable to piffle?

I'm fine with teams discussing in their forum whether to patch, stay, or patch with conditions...hopefully it can be done ASAP, perhaps in a few days.

What is the difference between 1.74 pre 3-13 and post-3.13?

It changes the .dll file of vanilla

It changes the .dll file of vanilla

Which all 3 versions use. But since the changes are only relavent to BTS it doesn't impact on vanilla or warlord if your using different versions, except for that annoying warning about different files each time you log in

It does affect the way how you play PBEMs. I found that out with the ISDG. I had to have a triple install since the new BTS patch affects the way you play, since any change in the files will result in a version mismatch meaning that you cannot open it to play a PBEM.

There have been negotiations, over the last several days, between Aloha and Piffle in an effort to reach an agreement on the patch. Unfortunately, it appears that we have reached an impasse and will be unable to arrive at an agreement. There is no fault or blame to be assigned. Both teams negotiated in good faith, doing what they felt was in the best interest of their own team.

However, Piffle does not believe that the current situation should be allowed to continue in perpetuity. As such, we are calling on the game administrators to create an official UN vote to decide the question: "Do we want to patch? Yes or no?".

I would presume that most teams have a general idea of how they would decide this question. Thus I believe the game administrators should place a time limit for UN representatives to respond to the poll. I would presume that 3 days would be sufficient, but would be happy with any reasonable limit.

I will just keep it in this thread for organization:

UN Poll on Patching to Civ4 v1.74
The options are:
Stay with 1.61
Upgrade to 1.74, have a type of mod to deal with Cossacks
Upgrade to 1.74, use the standard rules
Other

Please discuss this in your team forums and have a representative from each team post the result. Try to get it done within 3 or so days, but time can be given if necessary. :hammer:

Well there has been a thread in the Loco area for ages and only 3 people (at least one of them was me) have look at it.

Innovia votes Upgrade to 1.74, use the standard rules, but with the addition that we have no big issue with using a mod, as long as we upgrade to 1.74.

Epsilon has also voted to Upgrade to 1.74, use the standard rules.

Like Innovia, we're open to the idea of a mod – but are unsure if this is even possible, or who would make it for us in a reasonable amount of time.

Here's hoping the first Civ4 MTDG doesn't die a bitter death! :beer:

Loco (basically me!) has voted to Upgrade to 1.74, use the standard rules

So is this measure achieved by a simple majority?...

If so, the proposal has passed ;)

So far the two team most affected by this have not had a say yet, so we need to consider their response.

:hmm: How would their responses be considered?

If they both vote YES, then it's unanimous and everyone patches.

If one votes Yes, the other No, what is there to consider? It's still majority vote. Do we disregard the 4 teams that voted yes?? :p

If they both vote NO, then this poll shouldn't have been started in the first place - as the two teams who haven't voted yet are the ones who initiated the poll in the first place :crazyeye:

It seems to me that either this poll is a simple majority or it's useless.

Unless a team wants to make arguments to persuade the other teams to reconsider their votes? ;)

Though the team has not spoken, I dont think Piffle has ever argued against patching.

Unless a team wants to make arguments to persuade the other teams to reconsider their votes? ;)

We could be bribed :mischief:

How is the game exactly patched?

I don't have BtS so I hope that doesn't cause problems...

Well, our UN rep seems to be AWOL. And not too many Piffles voted, but those that did voted to Upgrade to 1.74, use the standard rules.

finnaly, something useful,lol,not to put others down though

I was still waiting on more responses although everyone seems to have made their minds up:rolleyes:

I must say it is odd that i made an offer 3 weeks ago that was more than fair that with the exception of one team no one had a problem with. Yet in the end the one team that didn't agree will get exactly what they wanted and we get nothing. Ridiculous

...we get nothing.

Don't you think that getting the game moving again is something? :p

I don't have BtS so I hope that doesn't cause problems...

No, it won't. I talked to someone at Firaxis last week (on another matter) about the pre/post vanilla/warlords dll's. Legally it probably wouldn't be wise to just pass around the post patch dll for vanilla, but that doesn't mean someone can't create a modded dll that resembles the post BTS vanilla dll and pass it around to the teams.

Yet in the end the one team that didn't agree will get exactly what they wanted and we get nothing.

:sad: Like you, I feel really rotten that it's come down to this. But given the choice of patching (changing the rules mid-game) versus letting the game die, I think it's pretty understandable that most people (who have over a year invested in this game - first turn played on April 19th, 2006) voted to do what was necessary to finish.

As Epsilon and Innovia both indicated – we're still not opposed to patching this with some kind of mod to boost your Cossacks. It's just that no-one knows how to do this. If you could do some research into getting it done/find someone to do it – it looks like we'd have a majority to support doing that.

However – if it can't be done, or we can't find anyone to do it – I hope you'll understand that it's not personal and we all recognize that you're getting the short end of the deal. We're all just choosing worse over worst.

No, it won't. I talked to someone at Firaxis last week (on another matter) about the pre/post vanilla/warlords dll's. Legally it probably wouldn't be wise to just pass around the post patch dll for vanilla, but that doesn't mean someone can't create a modded dll that resembles the post BTS vanilla dll and pass it around to the teams.Methos: can you inform your contact @ Firaxis about the problematic situation we are in and what they advise to do ?

I'm sure there is a proper solution that is fair for all, but we just haven't found it yet. :)

Its actually sad that you guys cant agree to a peace deal with us... you simply wont agree because you know as soon as the patch occurs you will have an advantage. Tell me I am lying since the deal is so woefully lopsided in your favor. (if my team wants I think we should post our peace deal to show everyone how petty you guys really are, looking for any advantage possible)

Anyone on other teams when placed in a similar position would agree with Aloha's position. Its pretty pathetic that fair play was never really considered in this "vote" I expected better from our game admins to ensure that all teams were treated equally. Its COMPLETELY unfair to allow game changing votes to be made when teams can bride and have alliances.

/my view not my teams

If firaxis is involved then why can't they upgrade & provide a mod for the Cossacks?

All this aside this is how to Ginger Knows how to Upgrade the game:



Okay, I just opened the most recent save just to see how this all works. I entered the admin password to open the save, but I still don't see where I "unlock" the save. Any help? Should I just contact Gyathaar?

You delete the text in the password box.. this unlocks the save
you dont have to play a turn

Methos: can you inform your contact @ Firaxis about the problematic situation we are in and what they advise to do ? :)

Sent and waiting for a reply.

If firaxis is involved then why can't they upgrade & provide a mod for the Cossacks?

We're not contacting Firaxis to creat a mod, but to make sure what were considering doing is legal.

Further detail on unlocking the game for a patch, if re-locking it is desired. Having an admin pw allows the admins to open the save without knowing the team's pw, that's the only difference I know about between locked and unlocked, in a MP game.


Open the game using the admin pw
Go to game options in the menu
Clear the admin pw in the resulting popup
Save the unlocked game
Open game in new patched version
Go to game options
Re-input admin pw
Save locked game
Forward locked game to current team.


As for the cossak thing, what's the difference between old and new? I could go search for it, but it would be easier if someone knows offhand.

New Cossaks are only +25% against mounted units, whereas the old cossacks were +50%.

Aloha is fielding Cossacks in a war with Piffle, who are fielding Cavalry.

25% Reduction in thier (Cossack) bonus agaisn't other cavalry.

Aloha is concerned about thier war on Piffle and how this could swing it.

I already made an arguement here why anyone who attacks Aloha with Cavalry (with or with the patch) is looney tunes anyways...

So the other way of looking at it without revealing to much strategy of the game is:

Piffle and Aloha are at war right now. Piffle can build for their attack (defense) either Redcoats, or Cavalry. Knowing Aloha has + 50% versus any Cavalry Piffle would build I can't see them building anymore of that type of unit....

Even if the advantage was diminished to +25%, the Redcoat has a strength of 16 and a +25% bonus agaisn't mounted units...the logical choice to me is to build only redcoats.

The other option is for other teams to Attack Aloha in the next ~30 game turns before Cossacks become obsolete, well I know I can say for epsilon that sending over a Cavalry unit would be about the biggest waste of I can think of.

As it stands it doesn't make sense for anyone to attack Aloha with Mounted units with a 50% bonus or a 25% bonus because it is just a bad fighting situation.

So to me aloha takes one for the team and accepts and we patch up.

Again I can't answer for Piffle or aloha in thier war, but when was the last casulty that Piffle suffered on a Cavalry?

Anyone on other teams when placed in a similar position would agree with Aloha's position. Its pretty pathetic that fair play was never really considered in this "vote" I expected better from our game admins to ensure that all teams were treated equally. Its COMPLETELY unfair to allow game changing votes to be made when teams can bride and have alliances.

I completely agree with you, except for the part about the admins. They have contributed little to this discussion, and have been leaving it up to all of us to hammer out a mutually acceptable arrangement. :yup:

That said, it's all too easy to forget that this is just a game, and games are to be played for enjoyment. Right now, with the save stalling several times per round due to lack of turnplayers, it's not fun for anyone. It's also easy to forget that when the patch first came out, the almost unanimous opinion was that it was unfair to change the rules in the middle of the game, so we all opted to not patch. But since then, participation on some teams has fallen precipitously. And so here we are again.

I'd rather that we didn't have to patch to keep the game going, but it seems that I'm in a small minority. In a perfect world, this issue would never have arisen. But such is life. :old:

Aloha has all my sympathy, and I sincerely wish there was a better solution.

Its actually sad that you guys cant agree to a peace deal with us... you simply wont agree because you know as soon as the patch occurs you will have an advantage. Tell me I am lying since the deal is so woefully lopsided in your favor. (if my team wants I think we should post our peace deal to show everyone how petty you guys really are, looking for any advantage possible)

Anyone on other teams when placed in a similar position would agree with Aloha's position. Its pretty pathetic that fair play was never really considered in this "vote" I expected better from our game admins to ensure that all teams were treated equally. Its COMPLETELY unfair to allow game changing votes to be made when teams can bride and have alliances.

/my view not my teams
You're lying :crazyeye: .

Just kidding. Piffle isnt the one pushing the patch and has offered straight up peace. How is that lopsided?

I probably know how to mod it and make the new save accept the mod. Can't say for certain without testing. I'm thinking two command files to swap between the modded asset and the regular one. Opinions on this?

BTW I was just asking what stat changes, not for the whole history. :p

I probably know how to mod it and make the new save accept the mod. Can't say for certain without testing.

The easiest mod would be to give all existing cossacks Formation, bringing them back up to 50% vs. cavalry. Newly built ones would be out of luck, but we wouldn't need to worry about asset checks.

The easiest mod would be to give all existing cossacks Formation, bringing them back up to 50% vs. cavalry. Newly built ones would be out of luck, but we wouldn't need to worry about asset checks.

That would require an editor which can modify MP saves. I know a few people who should have enough info on the save format to be able to do it. However, it's not surprising that they all seem pretty uninterested in actually doing it. It's actually quite surprising that similar methods of giving compensation have received any serious discussion, knowing the technical hurdle.

Unless you know someone more willing than I do, of course... :mischief:

We could always just go to the C&C forums and ask someone how. Than one of us who feels willing (and has the time) can attempt it. Myself, I don't know how, nor do I believe I have the time.

However, it's not surprising that they all seem pretty uninterested in actually doing it.

This is a bit of a problem now adays. :sad:

New Cossaks are only +25% against mounted units, whereas the old cossacks were +50%.


I have an interesting finding on this. Where did the 25% vs 50% thing come from? Here's what I found in the actual XML files.

1.61

<UnitCombatMods>
<UnitCombatMod>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMods>



1.74

<UnitCombatMods>
<UnitCombatMod>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMods>

1.74

<UnitCombatMods>
<UnitCombatMod>
<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_MOUNTED</UnitCombatType>
<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMods>


So the patch notes were wrong!

:rotfl:

UN-BE-LIEV-ABLE!

So, I assume that means no further objections to patching?

You have to be sh***ing me.

Does this mean we held up on patching for nothing?:rolleyes:

Piffle isnt the one pushing the patch and has offered straight up peace. How is that lopsided?

You fail to mention what the sticking point was.

And for the record, the reason piffle rejected the peace/patch deal was they did not want to lose there galleon full of cavs which had been trapped by us after putting them where they didn't belong. We didn't feel we should let them go considering they attacked us hence no deal.

That's what I got.

source: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/ & Anion's reference sheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236346)

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5950/cossacksbk6.jpg

No problem.
I verified this in anion's sheets for 3.13 and 1.74.

Conclusion: :)

Let's get patching then.

Who would have guessed that the patch notes were wrong :rotfl:

Let's get moving, then! :salute:

Unbelievable that someone didn't discover that sooner. :lol:

The positive part is that we can patch while no one gets the short end of the stick. Problem solved. :)

Thats made my day! :lol: Lets get that patch!

Sent and waiting for a reply.

We're good.

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/5950/cossacksbk6.jpg

Looks like they are 15:strength: though, down from 18:strength:.

So it's actually a bigger nerf, since they do worse against rifles too.

:nono: but only 90 :hammers: to produce, instead of 120 :dunno:

Looks like they are 15:strength: though, down from 18:strength:.

So it's actually a bigger nerf, since they do worse against rifles too.

The second one is from BTS, which we're not going to play. We'll be playing 1.74, which, if everyone here understands it correctly has strength 18, +50% against mounted units.

The second one is from BTS, which we're not going to play. We'll be playing 1.74, which, if everyone here understands it correctly has strength 18, +50% against mounted units.
Then everyone here doesn't understand it correctly, because looking through the vanilla 1.74 xml reveals this:
<iCombat>15</iCombat>
So we got a new problem unfortunately.

:( is this game ever going to move again?

...So is the 1.74 Cossack indeed 15:strength: +50% vs Mounted at a cost of 90:hammers:?

If so, then we should still patch up - take a look at how many hammers yield how much strength:

vs. Mounted
1.74 Cossack = 22.5:strength: / 90:hammers: = .25:strength:/:hammers:
1.61 Cossack = 27.0:strength: / 120:hammers: = .23:strength:/:hammers:

vs. all others (minus cannon)
1.74 Cossack = 15:strength: / 90:hammers: = .17:strength:/:hammers:
1.61 Cossack = 18:strength: / 120:hammers: = .15:strength:/:hammers:

In other words, the Cossacks are actually a better value under 1.74 numbers :crazyeye:

We should still patch.

Not to be joy killer, but you can't really calculate that way. With the reduction of the strength from 18 to 15, the odds against, e.g. a rifleman, changes dramatically and you would need more than 120/90 = 1.333 times more cossacks to do the same amount of damage.

To put it another way, is a fight between a spearman and two warriors even, since the warriors' combined strength is the same as the spearman's? The answer is of course no, because of the way the combat mechanics of the game work.

edit: Found a calculator - the odds for a cossack against a rifleman with no defensive bonuses changes from 64% to 29% with the strength reduction.

edit: Found a calculator - the odds for a cossack against a rifleman with no defensive bonuses changes from 64% to 29% with the strength reduction.

Do i dare ask what the odds against redcoats are

Do i dare ask what the odds against redcoats are
Against a redcoat the odds change from 31% to 22% with the strength reduction (a redcoat has strength 16, yes?)

But you're still negecting the reduction in production cost. 120:hammers: in 1.61 is 33% more than the 90:hammers: in 1.74! That's a huge difference.

And when you consider the combat odds posted above [Against a redcoat the odds change from 31% to 22% with the strength reduction] the post-patch Cossacks still come out better economically than the pre-patch Cossacks.

Really the only thing I see that this impacts is the chances of developing a level 5 Cossack for West Point enabling.

Let's patch up and get moving! :hammer2:

But you're still negecting the reduction in production cost. 120:hammers: in 1.61 is 33% more than the 90:hammers: in 1.74! That's a huge difference.

And when you consider the combat odds posted above [Against a redcoat the odds change from 31% to 22% with the strength reduction] the post-patch Cossacks still come out better economically than the pre-patch Cossacks.

Really the only thing I see that this impacts is the chances of developing a level 5 Cossack for West Point enabling.

Let's patch up and get moving! :hammer2:

31% to 22% isn't too big a difference in the grand scheme of things so Aloha is ok with that.

However you forgot one tiny detail. We have already invested 120 hammers into our current cossaks not 90.

So we should get 1.33 times the cossaks we built. Since we built 20 (this can be verified in the statistics) that equates to 26.67 which rounded to the nearest whole number is 27.

We had made an offer to go with the new patch in exchange for 15 turns of peace from all other teams guaranteed. Piffle rejected this generous offer so it off the table for good.

The new deal is this, we patch, then we get 7 cossaks to go along with that. Otherwise no one from Aloha we even view the save let alone play it.

This is offer is final and non negotiable.

4 Cossacks (360 :hammers:) with 15 :strength: would do better than 3 Cossacks (also 360 :hammers: pre patch 18 :strength) ....

Someone could set it up in world builder but pit 4 cossacks post patch versus 2 redcoats, as well as 3 cossacks pre patch versus 2 red coats. I know battle I would take...(especially if you take barracks / theoracy into account)

I back up with Robi says...we wont view it or play it. Piffle is using this to get an advantage...we wont stand for it.

The problem now is certain teams cant play the save...set them to AI and lets play. IF you decide to set Aloha to AI when we dont play its shows how far gone fair play really is. Same thing.

We should stay with the rules we started with.....if you cant play your turns then perhaps you best get started recruiting players who know how to have a dual install..or in my case a triple install after the latest BTS patch.

Both of the units have been nerfed in the new patch. The Cossack is still 120 :hammers: to produce and it is now 15 attack just like a regular Calvary, but the Redcoat has been nerfed also since it is also the same as a regular Rifle but just with a 25% bonus against gunpowder units. So unfortunately Peter's info is wrong.

Well I know patched or Unpatched Epsilon has still moved every single turn in under 24 hours.

I think we need an Admin descision here to get the game going... Really it doesn't matter to myself (or epsilon) as we can play...but it is hard to play it if the save never makes it back...

Let’s all take a deep breath before anyone quits this game. I’m sure we can work something out.

If classical hero is right (and I have no reason to believe he isn’t) and Redcoats have been Nerfed also – is that good enough for Aloha?

Or perhaps we need to add Redcoats to Piffle and Cossacks to Aloha?
Off the top of my head, this seems like it would be pretty fair to me.

Both of the units have been nerfed in the new patch. The Cossack is still 120 :hammers: to produce and it is now 15 attack just like a regular Calvary, but the Redcoat has been nerfed also since it is also the same as a regular Rifle but just with a 25% bonus against gunpowder units. So unfortunately Peter's info is wrong.

Well there seems to be an awful lot of confusion about what changes have be made.

Every time i log in someone has a different story about the changes that have taken place in the patch.

So is your saying the actual changes have been made to the cossask unit. Yes or No?

Let’s all take a deep breath before anyone quits this game. I’m sure we can work something out.

If classical hero is right (and I have no reason to believe he isn’t) and Redcoats have been Nerfed also – is that good enough for Aloha?

Or perhaps we need to add Redcoats to Piffle and Cossacks to Aloha?
Off the top of my head, this seems like it would be pretty fair to me.

I never said quit, just that we would not continue to play until the compensation issue had been addressed to our satisfaction.

However now i log in and i see CH has yet again a different version of the changes that have taken place. If this is for sure the changes that have been made and he is actually right about the cossaks and redcoat changes in the patch then Aloha will reconsider our position.

Well there seems to be an awful lot of confusion about what changes have be made.

Every time i log in someone has a different story about the changes that have taken place in the patch.

So is your saying the actual changes have been made to the cossask unit. Yes or No?

I knew I would need to do this sooner or later, so I took screenshots of the two relevant units when I played a game in 1.74 and here they are.

Here is the stats of the Cossack.
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5332/cossackot6.jpg

Here is the stats for the Redcoat.
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/787/redcoatuu9.jpg

Ah, so the redcoat is nerfed as well. In that case the combat odds for a cossack against a redcoat on open ground changes from 31% to 29%, a change which lies within what's acceptable, IMHO.

Is the hammer cost for a redcoats reduced with the patch or was it also 110 before?

1.61 redcoats are 110:hammers:, 16:strength:

Then the conclusion stands that the balance between cossacks and redcoats is practically the same pre- and post-patch 1.74 (they are, of course, both weaker against all other units).

We had made an offer to go with the new patch in exchange for 15 turns of peace from all other teams guaranteed. Piffle rejected this generous offer so it off the table for good.That's the offer that YOU turned down, remember? ;) I still have the PM. "Then no patch" was your response.

I back up with Robi says...we wont view it or play it. Piffle is using this to get an advantage...we wont stand for it.Using this to get an advantage?!?!?! Yeah, right! Your "5 or 6 solid players" have been going up against 1 person who has zero MP experience and you accuse me of looking for an advantage? The only advantage that I am looking for is to be a part of a team.

Oh wait! I'm supposed to force people to dual install, right? :rolleyes: The last person that joined Piffle left after getting frustrated at not being able to open the save.

I negotiated with Aloha in good faith. IN GOOD FAITH! I'm sorry we couldn't work out an agreement. But then to come into this forum and state that I'm being petty and unfair? We have had ZERO DISCUSSION about your precious little Cossacks. A FACT that the game admin can easily verify!

Every time i log in someone has a different story about the changes that have taken place in the patch.Since one of YOUR teammates has a "triple install", why doesn't Aloha tell all of us what the differences are between the various versions?

Well it seems Aloha is ok wit hthe nerf, now that they know the Piffle Redcoat also gets nerfed.

Piffle wants to patch.

I would say All we're waiting for now is an admin (hint hint) to open the save patch it, and get us movign again!!

Since one of YOUR teammates has a "triple install", why doesn't Aloha tell all of us what the differences are between the various versions?

Simply because I havent had the time. My posts have been from a non-civ computer.

As General_W mentioned, let's remember this is a game that we all signed up for to have fun.

Anyone who is against patching, speak up now and state your reasons.

Otherwise, let's patch and get this game moving again :hammer2:

So as soon as Ginger Ale patches it we can get going? Hint, hint.

I need to find some time to patch it. My computer is as slow as can be so patching will probably take a few hours sometime this week...

Have any special changes been decided upon? That means: is there anything I need to do besides following the instructions already posted?

I think That it is patch the game and play as is...unless Piffle or Aloha have any other voices on it now?

You finish the game with the rules you started with. It what I teach my 5 year old. If a team cant or wont then kick them to AI. We all based every decision in the game on the rule-set and current code of the game...INCLUDING THE BUGS/EXPLOITS( whipping). Lets finish it and then start a new BTS or warlords or patched vanilla game.

I am and always was against patching. Its about fair play and following the rules we all agreed upon. This game is falling apart not because of the patch but because its simply taking to long to reach each other for combat and interaction. This game was showing signs of falling apart long before the patch became an issue.

This game is falling apart not because of the patch but because its simply taking to long to reach each other for combat and interaction. This game was showing signs of falling apart long before the patch became an issue.

All teams have reported drops in participation, but they only became life-threatening after the 1.74 patch became ubiquitous. The save is taking so long to go around because more than one team has to rely on a single turnplayer. Why? Because of the necessity of a dual install due to the patch. Why is there only one turnplayer? Becuase participation is low. Why is participation low? Because on many teams, only a couple people are able to open the save. So you see, the patch is the reason participation is low, and participation being low is the reason the game is on life-support.

4 teams have voted, and so far they all support patching. This isn't about fairness. None of the teams are for patching just for the sake of patching - but patching is the only way this game is going to go forward. This is also the first time that the whipping fix has been brought up. Does that mean that Aloha's position on the Cossacks/Redcoats issue has been resolved? If so, then the whipping thing is a non-starter, as it's a level playing field for all of us. Every team will be experiencing the same consequences.

Let's finish what we started before talking about starting up a distracting second game.

I think I said that..finish this then start another one with the new rules.

Aloha is waiting for a few answers first...Robi D will have the teams suggestion.

Hi,

This game is falling apart not because of the patch but because its simply taking to long to reach each other for combat and interaction.
Uh, huh? :confused: Sure doesn't feel like this from my team's perspective. Lots of interaction and combat, we have!

But that isn't the point anyway. The discussion was about whether and how we should patch.

-Kylearan

Thank you for your effeorts CH :)

Given that no one has jumped in with yet another version of whats changed i'll take that one as fact and let the team have their say.

Hi,


Uh, huh? :confused: Sure doesn't feel like this from my team's perspective. Lots of interaction and combat, we have!

But that isn't the point anyway. The discussion was about whether and how we should patch.

-Kylearan
I mean the months leading up to now...by then everyone had left.

With the info provided by CH, no one at aloha has objected to the patch being applied as is and moving on.

I hope everyone is happy with that

:D That's great news! :clap:

:dance: I hope this helps bring participation back. Let's all sacrifice some fruit and get this game rolling again! :banana:

I suggest you offer some units and techs to the Hindu gods :D

I need to find some time to patch it. My computer is as slow as can be so patching will probably take a few hours sometime this week...?

Wehoo We're all waiting :D :D


Have any special changes been decided upon? That means: is there anything I need to do besides following the instructions already posted?

Nope we are good.

With the info provided by CH, no one at aloha has objected to the patch being applied as is and moving on.

I hope everyone is happy with that

Thanks for being reasonable Aloha! :hatsoff:

So... Where are we at on patching? :D ... Ginger Ale?

Someone: just send the admins (Ginger & Regent) a PM to let them know you are ready to be patched. They have the passwords.

done :) PM sent

Just FYI: it'll probably be Friday afternoon when I have the time to update this game. I'll just take the most recent save, do the stuff, and send it on its way, barring no mishaps.

Apparently my computer is unable to open the save...at least, it takes a really long time and is too old. I've sent an email to RegentMan with all the instructions and necessary info, so I'm waiting to see if he can patch up the game hopefully either tomorrow or in the days coming very soon.

Could Rik (Meleet) do it?

I'm hitting a few roadblocks. I've unlocked the save, but since I cleared the admin password, it won't recognize that, nor will it recognize Loco's password for some reason. So I have an unlocked save I can't open. Thoughts?

Could Rik (Meleet) do it?I think I can. My laptop has vanilla 1.61 installed. But the version on the laptop is unimportant to me, since I don't play cIV on it. I could install any version required.
But I will need instructions on how to do it.

In short; I need:
1 - confirmance that I need to start the upgrade with 1.61 installed.
2 - the admin PW (+ the team password ?)
3 - the save
4 - a walkthrough on how to upgrade (in case Dave's list is incomplete)

Send it to rikciv (-at-) gmail * com

Further detail on unlocking the game for a patch, if re-locking it is desired. Having an admin pw allows the admins to open the save without knowing the team's pw, that's the only difference I know about between locked and unlocked, in a MP game.


Open the game using the admin pw
Go to game options in the menu
Clear the admin pw in the resulting popup
Save the unlocked game
Open game in new patched version
Go to game options
Re-input admin pw
Save locked game
Forward locked game to current team.

nor will it recognize Loco's password for some reason.Have you tried Piffle's password?

Have you tried Piffle's password?
No I haven't, but I'm using the Epsilon --> Loco save, so it is King Kong's turn.

Is that just as a test? And then if it works you'll use the most current save?

No, the Loco --> Piffle save isn't a save at all.

I wonder what it is then???

Oh well. So can we maybe ask Ainwood for help?

all this discussion and we cant patch..should we proceed with out the patch?

Ok the request has been put out:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6168390#post6168390

Thanks Memphus. Hopefully someone will be able to sort this out.

Didn't DaveShack provide a step-by-step at some point?... Maybe that was for a dual install... :hmm:

Send me the save + the passwords (admin + all teams) and I will take a shot at it, like I said here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6161014&postcount=97).

Done ...

If Rik has trouble, I can convert it when it's Innovia's turn, and then shred the admin password. I'm :old: enough that forgetting it will be no trouble at all. ;)

Upgrade completed (I think) and forwarded to Ginger_Ale.

Okay, well, I have now forwarded the save to Team Piffle so they can attempt to play. :)

I'll try to play tomorrow (ya had to send it on Thanksgiving??).:)

Lets wait and see if someone else on Piffle can load it, but it didnt work for me. (Assets protected).

Do you happen to have Beyond The Sword patched to 3.13?

Yes. +xcl.....

If there's going to be problems with the BtS and non-BtS dll compatibility, I suggest using the solution that's used in the GotM which allows all players to play with the BtS dll. Unless, of course, if someone has a simpler solution or iif it turns out that it isn't a problem.

That was a problem with the civ4 ISDG. Look Here. http://z9.invisionfree.com/Civ4_ISDG_Alternate/index.php?showtopic=2&st=870

So the plan now is....?

If we ask Rik to do it again, now with the BTS compatible GOTM add-on (and someone can explain to the rest of us how to get it too :confused:), we *should* be ready to go.

If we ask Rik to do it again, now with the BTS compatible GOTM add-on (and someone can explain to the rest of us how to get it too :confused:), we *should* be ready to go.
The GOTM add-on solution is only available for Warlords at the moment AFAIK, but I'll try to consult with my fellow staffers to see if they can work something out.

It appears the solution is much simpler than I thought, since there's no legal issues using the only part of the GotM add-on that's relevant to us - the dll.

If everyone, including the one that will make the next attempt at patching the game, without BtS downloads the dll supplied here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/Civ4_BtS_DLLs.zip) (it also includes the Warlords dll, but that's not needed for us) and places it in assets, we shouldn't have any compatibility problems.

For those worried about having to manage a pre- and post-BtS dual install, that's not neccesary. Simply switch the pre- and post dll back and forth as needed, remaning the unused one with a different file extension.

So Epsilon wins?

So Epsilon wins?

I don't think we have the tech to do a UN victory poll yet...

True… No UN… but I think The Leader (may he live forever) would probably accept a mass pledge of fealty by all world leaders.
:D

Nevermind who would get the pseude-victory if this game ends inconclusive... what's important is that we need to finish this and the only solution, as I see it, is that everyone patches up to version 1.74 post-BtS. If anyone has objections to this, speak your case, but otherwise, why don't we patch up and continue?

:agree:

I am, of course, kidding. I really hope we can get this game patched and moving again.

So do I. I don't care what version we play, next tiem the save comes to Epsilon it will move in 24 hours :)

Everyone should patch, absolutely. Bear in mind that I'm playing on a sub-standard mac, and the patch seems to be a bit unpredictable for people like me, yet I still advocate we patch to keep the game going. There's a very real chance I won't be able to open the save after this - but I'd rather be a part of a game that completes without me being able to see the turn-by-turn events, than be part of a game that fizzles under any circumstance.

Looks like I'm headed off to the Mac forum to learn the arcana of a dual install there (tho' a cursory examination of the threads implies that it's a bit simpler on the mac :p)

If any more patching needs to be done - my time for that is getting scarce due to changes in my private life and the honeymoon immediately afterwards :D.

so who we waiting on Thoeden?

Can someone let Rik know what he has to do to the save?

We are waiting for someone (a game admin or someone we trust) to repeat exactly what Rik did, except that it has to be with the post-BtS 1.74 installed. Alternatively, we could solve the problem if the turn-players who have post-BtS "de-patch" their versions to pre-BtS, making them compatible with the current patched save provided by Rik.

Downgrading turnplayers is a really bad idea. :lol:

Here is the file (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=171033) you need if you don't have BTS.

so now it is back to Piffle to move the save :|

We are waiting for someone (a game admin or someone we trust) to repeat exactly what Rik did, except that it has to be with the post-BtS 1.74 installed. I think I can. My laptop has vanilla 1.61 installed. But the version on the laptop is unimportant to me, since I don't play cIV on it. I could install any version required. (..)Why didn't you just ask me ??

I'll get rid of BTS and cIV and simply install cIV, 1.61. Then open the save and continue the upgrade to 1.74 like I did before.
Will that work ??

Why didn't you just ask me ??

I'll get rid of BTS and cIV and simply install cIV, 1.61. Then open the save and continue the upgrade to 1.74 like I did before.
Will that work ??
Yes, that will work, providing you upgrade it to 1.74 via installing BtS.

Downgrading turnplayers is a really bad idea. :lol:

Here is the file you need if you don't have BTS.
I know, it wasn't a serious suggestion as much as it was a way to produce an exhaustive overview of the situation.

The files seem to be the same as I linked to on the page before, no? Or have I misunderstood which dll is needed?

So in simple terms...if you have BtS and upgraded your vanilla at that time...you will be able to play the save.

^^ yes, and it would mean that i could play the save for Loco again.

Yes, that will work, providing you upgrade it to 1.74 via installing BtS.


I know, it wasn't a serious suggestion as much as it was a way to produce an exhaustive overview of the situation.

The files seem to be the same as I linked to on the page before, no? Or have I misunderstood which dll is needed?So the correct way for me is:


Uninstall cIV and BTS
Install cIV
Patch to 1.61
Open the save, clear admin PW and save the game
Install BtS. That way having cIV 1.74 installed.
Open the save and put admin PW back.


right ?

It might be best to get the lateest, non BTS patch for vanilla and then patch BTS.

So the correct way for me is:


Uninstall cIV and BTS
Install cIV
Patch to 1.61
Open the save, clear admin PW and save the game
Install BtS. That way having cIV 1.74 installed.
Open the save and put admin PW back.


right ?

Just to be sure, after you've uninstalled everything, remove any files left behind in the Sid Meiers Civilization 4 folders.

Just to be sure, after you've uninstalled everything, remove any files left behind in the Sid Meiers Civilization 4 folders.

Including your My Documents folders.

So the correct way for me is:


Uninstall cIV and BTS
Install cIV
Patch to 1.61
Open the save, clear admin PW and save the game
Install BtS. That way having cIV 1.74 installed.
Open the save and put admin PW back.


right ?
Almost. Including what the others said, the complete procedure is:


Uninstall cIV and BTS
Remove any files left behind in the Sid Meiers Civilization 4 folders including your My Documents folders.
Install cIV
Patch to 1.61
Open the save, clear admin PW and save the game
Patch to 1.74
Install BtS. That way having cIV post-BtS-1.74 installed.
Open the save and put admin PW back.

Doing that now

Almost. Including what the others said, the complete procedure is:

Uninstall cIV and BTS
Remove any files left behind in the Sid Meiers Civilization 4 folders including your My Documents folders.
Install cIV
Patch to 1.61
Open the save, clear admin PW and save the game
Patch to 1.74
Install BtS. That way having cIV post-BtS-1.74 installed. AND patch to 3.13
Open the save and put admin PW back.

sorry for intruding - just to make sure you don't need to do this a third time ;) bold part is important only the 3.13 patch screws with the .dll files of Vanilla (and Warlords) :)

Thx - I wasn't finished yet. I've done Theoden's steps 1 to 4. Starting on step 5 now.

I'll create a save for the BtS 1.74 patch and after that a save for the 3.13 patch and I will send both of them to the admins and team Piffle. Then they can figure out which save works best.

OK ?

Sure, but Piffle is going to choose the 3.13 version. :p

My laptop is unable to have BtS installed. I'll get back to you on this. (Might have to do it on my PC).

You don't need BTS, all you need is Theoden's DLL.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/Civ4_BtS_DLLs.zip

Are you sure ?
Can I simply add the dll's to the assests folder ?
Do I not need to upgrade to 3.13 (impossible since BTS isn't installed) ?
And can I then open the save on my desktop (with BTS 3.13) for the admin PW ?

OR

Shall I remove BtS completely from my desktop, reinstall BtS on my desktop, (re-) patch to 3.13 and then do the admin PW ?

OR

Can I simply move the unlocked 1.61 save to my BTS 3.13 desktop and do the admin PW there ?
(if that is the case I'm quickly finished).

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes

Do whichever is easiest. :)

Conversion completed. Admin password back in and save send to Piffle + the admins.

Play on.

Great to see the game moving again.

And a big thanks to you, Rik. :thumbsup:

Bedankt Rik!

And we're moving again.

I don't understand what happened. I had Civ4 patched to 1.74 and BtS patched to 3.13 but I can no longer load the save. Looks like I need to use some special .dll but if I do I can't play my other pbems. So basically I still need a dual install, right?

If you have BTS 3.13 and can't load the save, your installation is corrupted somehow.

Yes it was. Ok so I can now load MTDG saves, but what do I do to play my other games? Do I need to do a dual install or swap that .dll every time?

A dual install would be best.