I never ever trust an AI. I've been burned too many times. Besides, dealing with them is like dealing with a crazy person in an asylum. They don't perform actions that make sense to me. Why declare war on me when they are closer to weaker civs? How do I get to be your archenemy when i've never met you before?

In my current game Hammurabia or Ham sandwich or whatever his name is has declared war on me twice, both times his stacks have been repelled. Just before the second war he tried to make some lopsided trade with me, too. (Just as his stack appeared on my border, as if I couldn't see he was going to attack). I don't car that he DoW'd on me (because so far he's sucking at war), its just that I somehow became his worst enemy by doing nothing to him. When I ask for a cease fire he says I'm insulting Babylon. I'm insulting him? Dude! You keep attacking me for no reason. I don't even have ANYTHING he needs. (besides maybe tech, but he's not getting that)

In order to get to me, he has to cross through Saladin's territory. Yeah, my good pal, Sal has any option on going to war or stop trading redded out. Even though we share the same religion and I've traded with him a lot. Seems the only way to get the AI to truly be a friend is to kiss their butts. No way, man. Saladin's next on my list, just because he's a passive backstabber. That jacka** tried to get divine right before i did. I know if he had succeeded he would have changed religions and been my enemy.

I'm ahead in tech now, but what will probably happen is the AIs will all trade with each other but offer me crappy trades until one of them gets ahead. *sigh*. But my plan is to not let Ham-and-Eggs goad me into a drawn out war. I'll wait until I have cavalry at least and then I'll be paying him a visit. (and as usual i don't try to capture enemy cities far away from me, i just raze 'em).

I really wish there was a way to just indicate to the AI civs that you're not going to give up something for nothing though. Augustus keeps asking me for valuable advancements, but won't trade any of his own (redded out). Come on, even a very bad negotiator wouldn't go for that deal. why would i give you Theology for free when you won't even consider trading horseback riding or mathematics or something? Since that makes no sense I just consider the AI to be retarded.

I wouldn't call this a rant. I think its a fair observation. Boudica has DoWed me once or twice just because my army war stronger and advanced than hers and we shared the same religion but I refused to give her a tech as a freebie.

I really wish there was a way to just indicate to the AI civs that you're not going to give up something for nothing though. Augustus keeps asking me for valuable advancements, but won't trade any of his own (redded out). Come on, even a very bad negotiator wouldn't go for that deal. why would i give you Theology for free when you won't even consider trading horseback riding or mathematics or something? Since that makes no sense I just consider the AI to be retarded.


Good point, and it brings us to the somewhat philosophical question - Is it possible for an Artificial Intelligence to be more intelligent than the person programming it?

do androids dream of electric sheep?

Battle tactics aside, I kind of wish the AI would have a better reason than going to war with me than "you refused to give us tribute!". That might be a believable reason in 1000BC, but after medieval times it sounds kind of silly. especially since the tribute they ask for is often so outrageous its a foregone conclusion that you're not going to give it up.

Things like Ham-and-Cheeses attack remind me of Civ II when the AI would declare war "just 'cuz". Theres not really anything to gain. I outtech him enough that I can outclass his troops . I don't even have deploy troops. I can just kill the ones he sends until War weariness stifles his economy. It'd be in his best interest to leave me alone. But then, that makes sense, just like it'd be in saladin's best interest to help me out. We share the same religion, he's pleased with me, and we trade. If Hambone takes a chunk outta me, who do you think would be next, saladin? Not Rome, Augustus would eat him alive. Not Toku...he's way to hard a nut to crack. whats really crazy is I could offer Aug

Of course, this being Civ logic, Saladin will probably turn against me, just 'cuz. It doesn't matter how nice I treat him, he will sooner or later. I'm actually surprised (and relieved) that Auggie hasn't attacked me. But thats probably coming sooner or later.

Shaka does the same thing to me.

Several games back, Darius was the top leader and I'm trying to take him down, and his only neighbor he had bad relations with was Shaka. So, obviously, I'm going to befriend Shaka. After many rounds of MORE than fair trades and gifts, including war tech and strategic resources, he and I are on friendly terms, like 10+ or something. I've even converted to his religion. Yet every single option on diplomacy is redded out because "We just don't like you enough!"

Well fine, Shaka, you back-@$$ed crappy UB-having no-love player-hater, I'll just take out Darius myself then. Because I'm going the war alone, and it's against someone three ranks higher than me, it's taking all of my resources, money, economy is tanking, but I've managed to score two cities, and am perhaps two turns from delivering the final crushing blow that will cleave Darius' empire in twain, and take me from my hard-earned spot of second to a resounding first.

Shaka pops up and demands I give him something retardedly high-priced, like Rifling, for free. I tell him politely to piss off. He declares war on me, and then proceeds to attack the cities I had JUST conquered from Darius. Since Shaka's forces are fresh and numerous (you know, from not having been in a WAR and all), he wins, secures second place, drops me down to even lower than when I started the war with Darius.

SCREW IT!!! Darius and I make peace, and I write off the whole experience as a major suckfest. A few turns later, I make peace with Shaka, because I juts can't take another war. A few turns after that, Shaka pops up again and asks me to join him in his war against Darius.

DAH!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Battle tactics aside, I kind of wish the AI would have a better reason than going to war with me than "you refused to give us tribute!". That might be a believable reason in 1000BC, but after medieval times it sounds kind of silly. especially since the tribute they ask for is often so outrageous its a foregone conclusion that you're not going to give it up.

Things like Ham-and-Cheeses attack remind me of Civ II when the AI would declare war "just 'cuz". Theres not really anything to gain. I outtech him enough that I can outclass his troops . I don't even have deploy troops. I can just kill the ones he sends until War weariness stifles his economy. It'd be in his best interest to leave me alone. But then, that makes sense, just like it'd be in saladin's best interest to help me out. We share the same religion, he's pleased with me, and we trade. If Hambone takes a chunk outta me, who do you think would be next, saladin? Not Rome, Augustus would eat him alive. Not Toku...he's way to hard a nut to crack. whats really crazy is I could offer Aug

Of course, this being Civ logic, Saladin will probably turn against me, just 'cuz. It doesn't matter how nice I treat him, he will sooner or later. I'm actually surprised (and relieved) that Auggie hasn't attacked me. But thats probably coming sooner or later.

This is one of the things that differenciates top players from good players.

A top player will be aware of the diplomacy situation between all civilizations, on how advanced every civ is (not just score but land, techs & military as well) and thus will be able to make a decition if giving away a free tech, just because they demanded will hurt him in any way.


Many times it is worth giving away techs(even expensive ones) or money/resources, even switching civics just to improve relations, obviously many times it is not, it is one of the puzzles you have to be ready to answer sometimes.

I think this emoticon would fit fine in this thread.... :spear:

This is one of the things that differenciates top players from good players.

A top player will be aware of the diplomacy situation between all civilizations, on how advanced every civ is (not just score but land, techs & military as well) and thus will be able to make a decition if giving away a free tech, just because they demanded will hurt him in any way.


Fair enough, mate. Now can you point us in the direction of a guide that can help with this? I've got plenty of time to read guides at work, but my actual play-time is limited. I'm willing to learn, but right now, I'm in the "No way in hell" camp on giving a belligerant arse of a civilization my best tech for free when the difference between my score and theirs is in the single digits.

Fair enough, mate. Now can you point us in the direction of a guide that can help with this? I've got plenty of time to read guides at work, but my actual play-time is limited. I'm willing to learn, but right now, I'm in the "No way in hell" camp on giving a belligerant arse of a civilization my best tech for free when the difference between my score and theirs is in the single digits.

There is no guide for this and there couldn't be one as it all situation related.

I never said I was a top player myself, infact I barely manage to win on Emperor, but I have seen it work in practice.

Unfortunatelly this is something you need to learn in practice and most importantly you need to spend more time studying diplomacy, power, military, economic screens between turns.

Once you have a new tech that no-one has it (or very few have it) or you have large cash surplus, then it is almost certain that someone will ask for something, so be prepared by having a good understanding of the situation.

It also depends what victory you are going for, if diplomatic, then give give, if conquest and you are going to wipe them out anyway don't etc.

Use your logic, your strategical genious, your diplomatic talent and take the best decision.

If all things in the game were do it step by step, it would not be this interesting!!!

There is no guide for this and there couldn't be one as it all situation related.


Not necessarily all, mate. There's some really valuable tools that one could use in such things. For instance, how many victory points a particular tech is worth. How many points are in having one resource available, versus another. How many points a military unit is worth. How to use spies to glean better information from your adversaries before making those decisions, whether spies decrease Diplomatic relations, and by how much. What the relative diplomacy levels are per leader, for instance, and what specifically scores you diplomacy points with who and by how much.

Those are just off the top of my head examples of stuff that could easily be quantified and placed into a guide, if one were to exist, so that the whole diplomacy thing wasn't just blind guesswork.

Fair enough, mate. Now can you point us in the direction of a guide that can help with this? I've got plenty of time to read guides at work, but my actual play-time is limited. I'm willing to learn, but right now, I'm in the "No way in hell" camp on giving a belligerant arse of a civilization my best tech for free when the difference between my score and theirs is in the single digits.

Well, if you've got enough espionage on them, it's invaluable to see what they are currently researching. The tribute can be misunderstood if you don't know the AI's current situation. It may look like "free tribute," but that is only if they have zero beakers invested already.

I find a lot of times where the AI is ten turns or less (on marathon) away from having the tech researched when they ask for it in tribute. This isn't a free tech as much as it is just tributing "beakers" to them rather than gold. Unless I'm building a wonder that the tech allows, I usually give them the tech. If it is a higher level one, you often get a nice + in diplomacy for "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright." This also helps when they ask for a tech trade, because you may find that they simply want help finishing their research and actually offer something decent in return.

That can change it from "no way in hell" to "why the hell not?"

Not necessarily all, mate. There's some really valuable tools that one could use in such things. For instance, how many victory points a particular tech is worth. How many points are in having one resource available, versus another. How many points a military unit is worth. How to use spies to glean better information from your adversaries before making those decisions, whether spies decrease Diplomatic relations, and by how much. What the relative diplomacy levels are per leader, for instance, and what specifically scores you diplomacy points with who and by how much.

Those are just off the top of my head examples of stuff that could easily be quantified and placed into a guide, if one were to exist, so that the whole diplomacy thing wasn't just blind guesswork.

Right, in this sense yes there can be guides, in fact there are many threads in the forums that talk about specific leader attitudes.

In my experience there is only a few leaders that are realy nasty and would backstab you anyway. Shaka, Alexander, Isabela, Napoleon, Cathrene & Montezuma, so be carefull with these ones.

As a general rule I would say that all the information you need is in the info screens after you have scouted AI's land of course, either through open borders or with spies or with great people.

Spies every time they get caught there is a random chance that you will get -1 relations. So it is very dependant on luck, but you can also see this by putting your mouse over the leader name every time a spy gets caught.

My thoughts:

I'm confused. This diplomacy thing you all speak of . . . I'm supposed to care what the other AI's think? I should try being nice to them?

Yeah, that's not going to happen. The various AI Civs are my rivals, my enemies, and my allies of convenience.

If I have to throw a bribe someones way to get a war of distraction going to further my ends so be it. Occaisionally I admit to some genersoity and friendship with a neighbor (usually because I'm not ready to invade) but that's about it. Once in a blue moon that relationship may actually develop into a permanant alliance, but that's about it.

"Diplomacy" and "Friendship" are just tools to deflect and soften someone up for my generous and benevolent leadership.

^ Yes, and you have to care what the AIs think to use Diplomacy+Friendship to properly prepare them for your leadership

Next time an AI comes knocking on your door demanding :gold:, do this:

Divide the amount they are demanding by the amount you have in store (i.e., what % are they asking for?)

Reload the last autosave before the turn the demand was made on.

Enter World-Builder and give yourself 10,000 :gold:.

Multiply 10,000 by the % from step 1.

End turn(s) until the turn-of-demand comes up.

Lo and behold, the AI will be asking for the amount you calculated in step 4!

I think that is stupidest part about the AI demands. They have absolutely nothing to do with what the AI might need ... it is based solely on what you have and some RNG that says it's time for them to ask for it.

And yes, I also think it's stupid the AI will declare war just because you won't empty out 50% of your treasury for them.

Otherwise, I often gift cheap techs and small amounts of :gold: every once-in-a-while, because it seems to reduce the chance of them demanding something for nothing.


-- my 2 :commerce:

do androids dream of electric sheep?


lol you beat me to it :lol:

Here is a pretty good general guide to diplomatic strategy. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/triangle_diplomacy.php It helped me heaps :)

Shaka does the same thing to me.

Several games back, Darius was the top leader and I'm trying to take him down, and his only neighbor he had bad relations with was Shaka. So, obviously, I'm going to befriend Shaka. After many rounds of MORE than fair trades and gifts, including war tech and strategic resources, he and I are on friendly terms, like 10+ or something. I've even converted to his religion. Yet every single option on diplomacy is redded out because "We just don't like you enough!"

Well fine, Shaka, you back-@$$ed crappy UB-having no-love player-hater, I'll just take out Darius myself then. Because I'm going the war alone, and it's against someone three ranks higher than me, it's taking all of my resources, money, economy is tanking, but I've managed to score two cities, and am perhaps two turns from delivering the final crushing blow that will cleave Darius' empire in twain, and take me from my hard-earned spot of second to a resounding first.

Shaka pops up and demands I give him something retardedly high-priced, like Rifling, for free. I tell him politely to piss off. He declares war on me, and then proceeds to attack the cities I had JUST conquered from Darius. Since Shaka's forces are fresh and numerous (you know, from not having been in a WAR and all), he wins, secures second place, drops me down to even lower than when I started the war with Darius.

SCREW IT!!! Darius and I make peace, and I write off the whole experience as a major suckfest. A few turns later, I make peace with Shaka, because I juts can't take another war. A few turns after that, Shaka pops up again and asks me to join him in his war against Darius.

DAH!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't call that AI stupidity, I call that brilliance! Shaka totally pwned you, :king: I can understand you feeling :mad: but in his place, wouldn't you have done the same? ;)

Also some people have suggested that the AI is stupid for attacking a strong human player instead of a weak neighbour... well, when I want to win a game, I usually want to take the strong guy down too... so I can understand them doing it, even though it often doesn't work for them because you are too strong... Or possibly they have done a quick calculation based on your position on the power graph and your wealth or wonders, and decided you are richer pickings than their weak, impoverished neighbour, so that is a fair reason for them to try a war. And I think the aggressive leaders are programmed to be more likely to go for it even if you are stronger than them.

nice point airefuego, he did to darius what shaka did to him (the hypocrite!)

note that the agressive civs attack more readily, and the protective ones are conservative traders. this is why shaka, julius, etc. blitz stronger civs all the time. its actually kind of realistic: some of the world's greatest empires were teh result of such wars. Greece vs Persia, Rome vs celts/Carthage/Greece/Egypt, united states vs england... the list goes on and on

regardless, it's still retarded

edit: this thread seems divided by the veterans going over the intricacies of manipulating the diplomacy and how everything fits into the big picture blah blah blah..., the people who are P.O.'ed because "the stupid AI keeps declaring war on me!", and the people who are slightly noobish but dont mind the occasional warmonger (those civs usually end up last place anyway).

Usually the AI will only give me a trade that's in their best interest. I did have one game though where Brennus for whatever reason kept giving me free tech after free tech. I wasn't even being nice he just totally hooked me up with like 5 techs and leveled me out. I ended up winning a space race.

worlds greatest empires. United states vs england??

Explain that one please :D

do androids dream of electric sheep?


Dick!




...was the writer of that novel.;)

Similar situation to this in my current game. I noticed that Ramses (ahead of me in score) was teching in the hundred-turn range. My first thought "He's going for a culture win!" So I start churning out a SoD to send his way, then Bam! Ramses DoW's me and I'm swarmed by destroyers and fighters. He lands a pretty puny SoD of his own and takes one of my main culture cities (for about 1 turn, then my SoD railroads over and retakes the city. That ends the land threat, he does bring a couple more stacks, but I hurl them back into the sea easily as I churn out tanks at the cyclic rate.

His fighters and destroyers are pillaging away, so I have to hurt him, drive for rocketry and start producing SAM infantry and guided missiles to go with my own fighters, bombers and battleships. I think I've blunted his attack, but all my crab, clam and fish are pillaged, along with a lot of my luxury tiles. My workers can't repair as fast as he can destroy. He's got a city on a nearby island; I'm putting together an amphibious landing to give him a taste of steel since he's determined to keep this war going.

The lesson here, as always: 1) I'm an idiot, and b) Don't neglect your navy.

This is one of the things that differenciates top players from good players.

A top player will be aware of the diplomacy situation between all civilizations, on how advanced every civ is (not just score but land, techs & military as well) and thus will be able to make a decition if giving away a free tech, just because they demanded will hurt him in any way.


Many times it is worth giving away techs(even expensive ones) or money/resources, even switching civics just to improve relations, obviously many times it is not, it is one of the puzzles you have to be ready to answer sometimes.


You are completely right. But this isn't about working the system the way it is now, its about how the system is illogical atm.

I have no problem when an ally decides to backstab me, but it has to be for a matter of gain, not 'just because'. It should be because they need my copper or need to expand etc etc.

A civ I havent even met before on the otherside of shouldnt me my arch enemy.

The diplomacy is the 2nd system in most need of being remade (spying being the first). It makes no sense, the way it is now is all random.

You are completely right. But this isn't about working the system the way it is now, its about how the system is illogical atm.

I have no problem when an ally decides to backstab me, but it has to be for a matter of gain, not 'just because'. It should be because they need my copper or need to expand etc etc.

A civ I havent even met before on the otherside of shouldnt me my arch enemy.

The diplomacy is the 2nd system in most need of being remade (spying being the first). It makes no sense, the way it is now is all random.

I don't think it is all random....Bottom line is everybody wants to win (even the AI) so backstabing and hating you just because you are the tech leader, or the one next to them makes perfect sense to me....

Sometimes I admit you get declarations of war from someone in another continent that never sends a single troop...I think this is propably someone bribing them into the war.

Diplomacy should never be counted on if you ask me. However, I like to have open borders so i can gift mercenaries to certain low ranked civs in thier wars.
Spies and mercenaries coupled with opportunistic Diplomacy is my theory.
(Prince/Standard/Random Map /Lincoln)

I don't think it is all random....Bottom line is everybody wants to win (even the AI) so backstabing and hating you just because you are the tech leader, or the one next to them makes perfect sense to me....

Sometimes I admit you get declarations of war from someone in another continent that never sends a single troop...I think this is propably someone bribing them into the war.


I aint disagreeing with you with backstabbing or whatever, thats all apart of diplomacy and adds the spice to the game. There is just alot of declarations of war that make absolute no sense. Just because you don't give someone a tech shouldnt be a reason to declare war.

Usually the AI will only give me a trade that's in their best interest. I did have one game though where Brennus for whatever reason kept giving me free tech after free tech. I wasn't even being nice he just totally hooked me up with like 5 techs and leveled me out. I ended up winning a space race.

Great! :)

Was he your vassal?