1. No big loss letting others build AP and adopt their religion.
2. No Line of sight anymore
3. More :) in the begining, founding a religion to get :) not that important.
4. AI seem to aim for early regilion more often.

you still get a espionage bonus when you have the HC, not to forget the +1 credits if you have the shrine

it's useful for the 1 :gold: per city

but i usually tend to ignore the early religions, there are more important techs
and i can always conquer a shrine city ;)

i used to always try and found one of the early religions (buddhism/hinduism/judaism) but the more i played the more this became a burden on having a good start. now if i do not found a religion at all, im not bothered. i usually capture a shrine by 1000AD anyway.

I find a lot of times too that the guy who founds hinduisim usually founds another religin too, so you can get two holy cities if you wait.

Shrine is awesome if you spread your religion to everyone, everywhere.

You mean shrine and Spiral Minaret = awsome!

In my current game I took over the Christian holy city, as that religion was borders with my land and the English had spread it like it was going out of fashion.

Que several hundred years later - build Wall Street along with founding two coprs in what I had now renamed Jerusalem. I was topping nearly 1200 gold per turn from this city, max population 9 lol.

I don't think it would be grossing anywhere near that if it had not been for the fact of the early christian spread.

Not quite as useless as you think.

I always try and get an early religion and HC, because the money from that helps offset expansion costs and keeps my coffers from tanking too early.

In my currento game at monarch i found Judaism, Confucianism and CHristianism, and still im the most advanced...trying a quick cultural win :-)

If you found several, say all religions, that is a very good indicator in the early stages that you are dominating.

I've found that generally only one of two approaches work with religion. Either found an early one, like Buddhism, let it spread on its own and eventually build the shrine, and otherwise, ignore it.... ....or to go at it full force as your primary objective. Get Writing ASAP, set up border towns to pump out missionaries as fast as possible, and spread that religion as your primary objective, to as many people as you can, then work towards the diplomatic or cultural victory. Trying to warmonger AND spread your religion is almost impossible from what I've seen.

Anything in-between, and all you're doing is taking away vital turns from more important projects.

If your warmongering theres a fair change you will "steal" the religion from some other civ in the first place. Then you can spread it as you see fit when your in a break.

I never bother with early religion, I do go for the later 4 though, and you can cram later 4 into 1 city. the trick is before you research the religious tech, make sure all your cities have same number of religion in it, build missionaries to spread other religion to your other cities if you have to. With 4 holy cities and 2 corps + wall street in one city, that city is a sight to behold.

you still get a espionage bonus when you have the HC, not to forget the +1 credits if you have the shrine

i didn't know about the espionage discount for owning the HC, it's really handy. zara for example didn't have my SR as his SR, but he did have 2 cities with my religion in them. i got a 40% discount using my spies in those 2 cities as opposed to any of his other cities. if would have been much less if i didn't own the holy city i think. 25% if for holy city, 15% is for the state having your SR, but i might have the numbers reversed. i stole MilTrad and Rifling, i'd never have been able to afford both without that.

you don't need to found the religion yourself to get the holy city of course. but since i'm not much of a warmonger in general, especially early (which IMO is before steel ;) ), in my case it's generally better to found it myself.

If you found several, say all religions, that is a very good indicator in the early stages that you are dominating.

i think of that more as a sign that i'm concentrating on that aspect and dominating there. it's quite likely that my focus on faith has left me pretty far behind in other areas. to me the major disadvantage on founding multiple religions is that unmet civs out there are more likely to have a common religion (or 2 blocs with different common religions). that can be a big fat mess, so sometimes in culture games i end up trying not to be the first to the late religion techs, so that somebody else can found it and break up their buddy-buddy relationship with the neighbors.

that doesn't always work of course. but it can be a big consideration, particularly on maptypes where you're isolated or have only 1 neighbor, and most of the civs are out in the great unknown.

+20 or 30 gold per turn very hand. as is converting others, espec war mongers such as shaka and co. if thye like you the game is WAAAAYY easier.

i didn't know about the espionage discount for owning the HC, it's really handy. zara for example didn't have my SR as his SR, but he did have 2 cities with my religion in them. i got a 40% discount using my spies in those 2 cities as opposed to any of his other cities. if would have been much less if i didn't own the holy city i think. 25% if for holy city, 15% is for the state having your SR, but i might have the numbers reversed. i stole MilTrad and Rifling, i'd never have been able to afford both without that.

you don't need to found the religion yourself to get the holy city of course. but since i'm not much of a warmonger in general, especially early (which IMO is before steel ;) ), in my case it's generally better to found it myself.



i think of that more as a sign that i'm concentrating on that aspect and dominating there. it's quite likely that my focus on faith has left me pretty far behind in other areas. to me the major disadvantage on founding multiple religions is that unmet civs out there are more likely to have a common religion (or 2 blocs with different common religions). that can be a big fat mess, so sometimes in culture games i end up trying not to be the first to the late religion techs, so that somebody else can found it and break up their buddy-buddy relationship with the neighbors.

that doesn't always work of course. but it can be a big consideration, particularly on maptypes where you're isolated or have only 1 neighbor, and most of the civs are out in the great unknown.

No, once I get my main first religion thats me.

If you happen to get the others, without beelining for them.. it is still clearly a good indicator.

Shrines are still incredibly powerful, especially on huge maps. Last game, Capac was getting around a base 50:gold:pt from the Budd shrine on my continent (every city just about Budd) in the late middle ages. Add in a market, bank and grocer, and thats 100:gold: pt even running 0% gold rate. Thats probably more of a bonus than even cottaging everything in site and being financial.........

I hate it when I capture a holy city and find that the AI had failed to build a shrine.

I have a hard time getting the first tier religions on Monarch, unless I settle next to seafood with a financial civ or something (and of course start with Mysticism). I find more often than not that I go for the Code of Laws slingshot. Research Meditation->Priesthood, then set it up so you finish Writing just before completing the Oracle. Free religion, open borders, caste system for an SE, and courthouses, all in one shot. And the oracle will eventually generate a GP for your shrine.

If you found several, say all religions, that is a very good indicator in the early stages that you are dominating.

Did I read this right? You can actually found ALL the religions?

I let the AI get all the early religions, my research goes elsewhere. I find I can usually get Taoism or Islam.

I never bother with early religion, I do go for the later 4 though, and you can cram later 4 into 1 city.

I like to have one early on, if I can, especially if not Creative. It can be tough to expand borders early on without a Religion you can spread around. Monuments only give you +1 cpt, and they are otherwise entirely useless, so I prefer to miss them out altogether. And expanding borders to get to those key iron, copper and horses resources, as well as blocking off land from your competitors is so very vital. I find I simply can't count enough on 1. a neighbour civ developing a religion and 2. them then spreading it into my lands for it to be a good gamble.

Capturing a Shrine city? Careful, you'll have a hard ask getting enough culture built up of your own so that the city doesn't revolt every now and again, or at least have lots of unhappy 'return us to our own civ' faces. Unless you wipe out that civ, which can be hard in the middle and later game, even if you have the advantage.

Founding a religion is far from useless simply because it can be a money machine. However I dont really go out of my way to ensure I get an early one, it just depends on my circumstances. I also like to have the benefit of being able to manipulate diplomatic relations

Last games I do not care about founding religion myself... Even I do not convert into religion what I get first... When I have no state religion I have no penalty for being heathen. When 2 my closest neighbour have same religion then I try to convert to same as they have... Basically what causes me easier gameplay in future... no need to have heathen for the rest of the world... Usually when Isabella founds buddism and you have judaism he is maximum annoyed with you, borders closed and you can't spread judaism into his territory... If I play continents and nobody in my cont. have religion and I found confusianism for example(first in code of laws) then I spread it and we have same religion in our continent.

Sometimes I do not get right religion until liberalism then free religion suits the best :)

There are some things you have to do yourself, there are other things you can let the AI do for you, and then steal the benefits.

I almost never found a religion, because I know it's almost always better to concentrate on military, and then take the holy city by force as soon as the event log tells me the shrine has been built. It saves you having to research religious techs and you basically get to steal a free GP when you capture the shrine.

I almost never go for Hinduism/Buddhism, unless I start with Mysticism and a useful worker/workboat tech. If multiple neighbors still lack religion in the Classical era, I may try for Confucianism and try to spread it for the diplo and espionage benefits. More often, I'll adopt a neighbors early religion for diplo reasons, and/or conquer the founder of an early religion. Mostly, I consider religion to be a diplo factor and focus my efforts on military and traditional economy.

peace,
lilnev

Did I read this right? You can actually found ALL the religions?

I let the AI get all the early religions, my research goes elsewhere. I find I can usually get Taoism or Islam.

Yeah you can found all.

I haven't personally had them (Prince / Marathon)

Bet every one right up until the last foundable religion right up to Devine Right and Islam. Had all the other 6.

Was three or four turns from catching that last one too, before the AI on another continent that I hadn't met yet got it! :mad: There went my plan on putting off religion hitting that continent as long as possible to make it hard for them to deal with unhappyness.

The Shwedagon Paya also enables a skip religion route. Some threads above mention taking a shrine city and its benefits - and this i stumbled on inadvertantly during a war -while i realized "hey, way better" i never really followed that tactic. However, if you adapted a foreign religion, and had Shwedagon, (and the great wall i suggest) - and had nice diplo with the country next door until a well timed switch to free religion- attack the civ and take their shrine!

Did I read this right? You can actually found ALL the religions?

I let the AI get all the early religions, my research goes elsewhere. I find I can usually get Taoism or Islam.

Yes you can although on the higher levels it woudl be very hard.
On noble and lower it is just a mater of who the oponets are and do you start with mysticysim.

I have even manged to get 6 of the 7 founded in one city.
It is very nice for a culteral victory. Heck even if you do nto get them all in the same city it is very nice.
Imagine 7 cathedrals in each culteral city.
It does put you significantly behind the curve in other techs at the begining though so you have to make sure you play nice withthe other civs. IE give in to demands spread you primary religion etc.....

I like to found an early religion as a rule, but after BTS (I went from Vanilla to BTS) I found that I do not get a prophet very early any more to build shrines. I used to get way too many, now I get very few.

I usually get 3 to 5 of the later religions and have yet to get Buddhism or Hinduism. I like getting one religion to spread and utilize its benifits along with the extra gold once I get a great prophet (great to help decide where Wall Street and corporations will go). By grabbing the rest of the religions I keep allies from doing those odd switches when they found them, causing them to no longer like me for sharing a religion.

I find it best to try for a late religion.

I usually try to get masonry first so that I can try for the great wall. I like the bonus spying when I pop a great spy, and the barbarian defense is a must on higher difficulty levels. The early religions are usually founded before I get the chance.

I then go for priesthood to get the oracle if possible. I like to research monarchy while I am building the oracle so that I can use the free tech for feudalism. Once I have feudalism I can build a few longbowmen to defend my cities before I start my early game warmongering.

It's nice if I can get both of these early wonders, but I usually have to settle for one or the other.

While I build up my milirtary forces, I research theoacry and then devine right. I usually spread Islam as my state religion since Islam buildings give a production bonus (why only Islam?).

Once my forces are ready, I invade my weakest neighbors first. I try to have one or two cities that can still build wonders while the rest continue to build units to resupply my war effort. Since the AI does not seem to bee line devine right or paper, it is usually easy for me to build the spiral gold bonus building and the university education bonus building for my state religion. These two buildings will secure both my economy and my research for the late game.

If you are going for a cultural victory you can't go wrong with religion. Temples, monasteries, temples built by prophets, Cathedrals, etc. You can start taking cities via culture. Add some spies and unhappiness. Right now I'm playing and I have founded 4 religions. I was losing big time until about 1500 AD when I turned up the heat on culture. Everyone wants to war me. They can't take my cities. I kept trucing and the Capac guy right next to me stacks all his knights on the border. So I declare and attack his stack with pikes. Now I've got all his wonders and he's my vassal. #1 falls due to 3 cities being captured by a guy in last place.

While I build up my milirtary forces, I research theoacry and then devine right. I usually spread Islam as my state religion since Islam buildings give a production bonus (why only Islam?).

?? my only guess is that you mean the buildings show up on the list as +2 :hammers:. that happens for whatever religion the Apostolic Palace builder was in at the time it was finished. the AP never changes religion even if the owner does. so if my guess of what you meant is right, it's not always Islam, it can be any of the seven.

If you are going for a cultural victory you can't go wrong with religion.

you can if you concentrate too much on culture/religion, neglecting military techs and your power graph, and your state religion ticks somebody off! in BtS i like a state religion much more for CV than i used to, with the improved sistine and the adorable AP. but pre-BtS i'd try for religions but often i'd be no-state-religion for more than half the game. i'm a wimp and truly terrible, horrible, awful at mongering wars.

That's why I leave slavery on until the modern era. If someone does attack me I bust out the whip.

*giggle* i figured you meant what you added in the edit after i posted my teasing response, can't go wrong as far as having culture options to build. but i just couldn't resist! and i do love winning by culture when i've been in last place from very early on :). take that HC!

?? my only guess is that you mean the buildings show up on the list as +2 :hammers:. that happens for whatever religion the Apostolic Palace builder was in at the time it was finished. the AP never changes religion even if the owner does. so if my guess of what you meant is right, it's not always Islam, it can be any of the seven.


That explains it. I think that you are right, Islam was the AP religion in my last few games. It is nice to know that I can choose any religion, and not Islam to get this bonus. I will try to build the AP more often now. Previously I was only building it to deny the AI. I hate when the AP vote for me to end my warmongering.

I usually ignore religion in the early game, but I will normally end up getting Taoism as I like to lightbulb philosophy to get into pacifism ASAP. I'll then make a bit of an effort to spread it around to my cities and maybe some nearby allies to make it a good Wall Street city later on.

I want to add that it's way easier to capture a Shrine city than to found a religion in higher difficulty. And an early GP is better used to settle than to build a shrine in most cases.

Also, there is not much point to make a religion you find as the state religion.

I think state :religion: is pretty damn important . Especially if your a builder or a warmonger . Getting Organized Religion for building +25% , creation of missionaries ( to convert AI neighbors for better diplomacy) is essencial . The :) factor is nice . Getting the GrProphets to construct the special buildings = some nice :gold:

Theocracy is very nice for the warmonger too .


However I usually don't gun for the very early religions ( Buddhism , Hinduism, Judaism) . Like somone already said , there are far more valuable techs to aquire early on . I usually do find myself getting one of the next (middle) batch of religions ( Christianity, Confuscism) since I consider Code of Laws pretty important and Theology a must for a warmonger strategy . If I fail at those then I definatly make it a point to aim for the last batch ( Islam , Taoism) .

Of course , being of no religion has its advantages , especially in diplomacy and especially if your playing a . .. .. .. .. . like AI Isabella . I play on noble ( also prince a few times) and ALWAYS find myself near AI Isabella ( stupid . .. .. .. .. .) . Its almost a must to go to war with her . I do everything but my civ random but the computer just hates me like that . It manages to put AI Isabella * close enough* to me but with a cannon fodder civ between us . I usually end up wiping out the that civ between us early and then it gives Isabella enough time to build up nicely . Then I find myself at odds with her diplomatically because of :religion: . Even if I manage to break her down some she ALWAYS vassels to SOMEONE which sux . Having no religion keeps spiritual ( especially aggresive spiritual civs like Isabella) at bay in the diplomacy.

When I get a start with no hunting or mining :) resources, and start with Mysticism I will always try for either Hinduism or Buddhism and can normally get one (Monarch). With Priesthood (likely when researched a religion tech) you get 2 more citizens in every city which is huge.

Useless? My god no. I only play on noble and prince still (in higher difficulty levels I hear it's pretty much impossible to found one anyway) but I find it highly useful there.
In one game I founded buddhism with gandhi and then proceeded to spread that around the entire map. My civilization was quite small that game but I got a ridiculous amount of income out of the fact the every city on the continent had buddhism in it (the gpt from this is included in any economical buildings such as Wall Street you build in the Holy City btw) and I ended up winning the game easily, also because almost the entire game was peacful as everyone except Brennus was buddhist.
I agree that it wouldn't be too useful if your strategy is less focused on spreading the religion but still the extra income can help

One word: Plastics

EDIT: lol, why plastics? xD I meant shrine