Hey guys,

I always seem to have these 2 problems, every time I start a game, I never seem to establish a GP Farm City, my Capitals his always busy with wonder/unit production and I cottages spawn it’s surrounding. Since I usually go for Great Library, my GP are Scientists (academy in 2 most sciences city) and I always struggle to bulb tech or to include as super scientist? Capital produce 90% of my GP while Tech research I get the free ones on occasion. My second problem is using them.

Now with BTS, you need those frigging GP!! to found Corporations. How to you manage it? I got a GM with Economics should I just hand on to him utile I can found Sushi?

I think my big problem is when to you chose your GPF do you conquer it, settle it or just plain ignore it and hope for the best after a few war and build National Epic + Pacifism in most favourable (which tend to be my capital)

My second and 3rd cities are usually resource grab (copper/food & future luxuries) with a tendency to cottages away green land in 2nd (Super Science City) and my 3rd city is usually for military production. Now by the time I get a 4th settler….no juicy land neither with lots of green pastures/flood plain to farm nor are any food resources available for the GP. So my 4th cities is usually a production oriented…I wait until cats for war.

In vanilla I had a lot of success with coastal GP Farm sea/land resources. But I don’t know if I have bad luck I never get those anymore.


I Play Standard map/Continents (this just seems natural)
Marathon, BTS 3.13
Monarch/Emperor/ with all available victories

You will definitely need to prioritize food over cottages in order to have good GP farm cities. Just a few specialists can swing the balance for what kind of GP you are likely to get. FWIW, I don't usually try to make my capitol a GP farm, because like you note, you really need to prioritize economy and production there quite often. Coastal cities with good food resources work well. A really great leader for starting a GP economy is Elizabeth--philosophical for increased GP, and financial so your need to build tons of cottages is reduced.

Now by the time I get a 4th settler….no juicy land neither with lots of green pastures/flood plain to farm nor are any food resources available for the GP.


You run out of good space with 3 cities? Sounds like you've had some hard luck being boxed in early there! Isn't there some jungle you could clear in the mid-game to make an all- or almost-all farmed grassland GP, er, farm?

And with BtS in the later game it's all the easier to get a GP farm going, as long as you remember it early enough. The National Park grants you a free specialist for every forest/jungle tile in the city radius that has been preserved, so you can easily get a 5 or 6 specialist city going before even considering the food level, and with a bit of an effort you can get 10 or more free specialists - just don't clearcut ALL the trees you see everywhere.

I have the same problem. I have yet to really figure out how to make the traditional GP farm, at least until later in the game. I seem to either end up having my capital be my GP farm by virtue of it being an awesome producer, having produced so many wonders, me not having any other city that I have that many specialists in, and National Epic being available to use on it.

The other thing that seems to happen a lot for me is that the first capital I conquer has awesome food resources and many forests (e.g. 12+). So I use it as a GP farm, but it isn't a traditional one, it is a late blooming National Park+National Epic GP farm that has mostly Free Specialists from Forest Preserves. That kind of city is super powerful in my opinion. Once you make the effort to get it online it can serve many purposes including an awesome GP farm.

In my current game, my capital in on a peninsula and has 3 fish, 2 clams and a corn in its fat cross. I was really excitied to play this game, but it is actually not easy at all because it is such a poor producer. My plan is to have it be my settler/worker farm early with lots of whipping, then be my specialist filled GP farm later. But I need another city to take up the production, and I have crap around me so far....

Duplicated via forum weirdness...

One thing that I have been toying with in my lst two games is the national park capital. If you happen to get on of those capital starts that has mostly forests and a few food resources around it I have found that it can be excelent to just use it as a wonder pump, keep theo forests though don't chop them out, and then later make it your National park city you get lots of good gpp's form the wonders you have build there and then you get the specialist later.

It is not obtainable all the time as it does depend on what you get for the capital and if there is enough food there to get the city nice an productive but the bonus is that you will have other improovments like universites etc there to allow you to pick and choose what specialists you want to run for your free specialists from the national park, unlike a lategame city that may still be building some of those which may or maynot beable to runt eh specialist type you want.
This has the added benefit in that it will produce them more quickly in the late game since it has the wonders and specialsts just more gpp's all around.

It seems to have worked so far for me. It may not in all cases though.

One thing that I have been toying with in my lst two games is the national park capital.

I have considered doing this a few times too, but then early growth can be super slow without any chopping. I usually can't wait on it, but if you do I can see it being pretty ubar.

so to get a gp farm i click on the add ___ (Priest, artist, merchant, citizen, or scientist) on the right of the city screen? I still have to feed him right?

And then settle my Gp there to get even more?

I have considered doing this a few times too, but then early growth can be super slow without any chopping. I usually can't wait on it, but if you do I can see it being pretty ubar.

Yeah the early growth is the key, so often it can be hard to pull off, it is easiest when there is just enough productin there to get your settlers out quickly and preferably get some good wonder resources under your control.
IE stone or marble because that makes the wonders easer to obtain. and once you have a couple other cities you can then have them focus on the rest of the building you need to do. Military science expansion etc. and the captial just builds wonders and buildings.

it is not a strategy that fis in every captial by any strech but when you can :goodjob:

so to get a gp farm i click on the add ___ (Priest, artist, merchant, citizen, or scientist) on the right of the city screen? I still have to feed him right?

Yeah, that's the basics, do that in a high food spot.
And you build national epic in it ASAP

Do NOT add citizens : they don't give GP points and only produce 1 hammers! if no extra specialists slots are available (no more buildings) you can whip them, or use caste system.
The only time they're worth using is on a totally hammer depleted city (few tiles island w/ seafood)

And then settle my Gp there to get even more?

Errr... nope settled GP do NOT produce GP points. Settling them here would be a waste, since this city will not usually be your main research/gold/espionnage city.

In some cases added food from Great merchants can be useful, or added production from GE. But you won't have many multipliers on prod, nor hammers themselves in a city that doesn't work anything but food tiles.

Overall still a waste, great ppl have many better uses

What would actually make a more effective GP Farm eg. on an all grassland/forested city? Chop the trees and build farms, going for food? Or leaving the forests and waiting for National Park? I'm thinking the latter, since it will take care of both happiness and health problems while going the high-food route and combining National Epic with Glod theatre would sort out unhappiness but still leave you with health problems for high pop.

What would actually make a more effective GP Farm eg. on an all grassland/forested city? Chop the trees and build farms, going for food? Or leaving the forests and waiting for National Park? I'm thinking the latter, since it will take care of both happiness and health problems while going the high-food route and combining National Epic with Glod theatre would sort out unhappiness but still leave you with health problems for high pop.

i am notoriously indecisive about where to put my national wonders, so i usually don't build NEpic until centuries after i should have. i get to a late start. recently i've been building it in a forest-y place and saving the 2nd slot for NPark, since i want medicine early anyway for sid's sushi.

doing that, i haven't yet needed globe in that city. every forest preserve in a city's fat cross gives +1 :). every city, so you don't need to build NPark first for that to kick in, and it's true under every civic, not like the :) forest/jungle happiness from environmentalism pre-BtS. so as long as you can keep your designated NPark city happy enough until SciM + bunch of worker turns invested preserving forests, you'll probably be okay.

What would actually make a more effective GP Farm eg. on an all grassland/forested city? Chop the trees and build farms, going for food? Or leaving the forests and waiting for National Park? I'm thinking the latter, since it will take care of both happiness and health problems while going the high-food route and combining National Epic with Glod theatre would sort out unhappiness but still leave you with health problems for high pop.

I feel that an hall forest with a couple of food resources or fish would be the best...problem is at higher levels the slow start if you dont chop.

Yup getting an early GP fram up is tough and there are some compromises. Generally IMO the capital isn't great as due to multiple wonders what GP you get is out of control, though it will still produce some. If you make your third city your planned GP farm and be sure to have loads grass in its cross, wether forested or not, probably chop forests to be able to build some stuff such as libraries unis etc as its unlikely to have much production, then only use scientist specialists and use loads as you have so much food. Its a pain as early on its a poor producer of units and GP but later you have some regular guarenteed great scientists for the liberalism race path etc. Much later it will come into its own as a great GP farm outstripping your capital by some way, but you have to make the sacrafice early on to get the most out of this for the mid and late game.

I stuck to this in my last game and it payed off very well, its now running 10ish specialists but have lost the guranteed scientist as no longer can afford to run caste system. Still an ace GP farm though.

GP Farm making consists of two things:

1. Making Wonders
2. Running Specialists.

Due to the additions Wonders have on GPPs, having your GPPs loop back into your Wonder production can have a powerful snowball effect, just as obsolete has demonstrated. Nevertheless, Specialists are also a strong part of where those GPPs come from.

An ideal GP farm is a site with multiple floodplains and food resources for over-the-top food production and about 3 or 4 hills for Wonder production. Early in its life, the GP Farm will concentrate on building Wonders to boost its GPP accumulation from Wonders. You can be selective about the Wonders you put in your primary and secondary GP farm so as to get the GP you like.

As you create Libraries and Temples and Monasteries, you can eventually shift or supplement GPP creation with Specialists. Recall that SE is very population intensive. You will probably not need that many tiles improved, but you'll need to have lots of happy faces and health bonuses. Since the tile footprint of the ideal GPP is small, you can actually spare about 5 or so tiles within it for Forests. Don't chop the Forests. Leave the Wonder-rushing to your primary Production or Capital city. Once the National Park comes online, boost Specialist content.

What would actually make a more effective GP Farm eg. on an all grassland/forested city? Chop the trees and build farms, going for food? Or leaving the forests and waiting for National Park? I'm thinking the latter, since it will take care of both happiness and health problems while going the high-food route and combining National Epic with Glod theatre would sort out unhappiness but still leave you with health problems for high pop.

If you can wait for National Park it is definitely more powerful. But there is the tradeoff that it comes late in the game. Your GP farm might be rather "meh" until National Park comes online, but twice now I've manage to wait with 15 tiles of Forest in the fat cross of that city (you need the city to have several food resources and maybe a production resource in the other 5 tiles). Once it is live, you have a city with good production, no health or happiness problems, excellent GP production rate (I could get over 200 GPP if I wanted to), near full control of the GP you get if you don't have any other wonders there(with caste system), and incredible flexibilty to focus on whatever your economy/game plan currently needs.

The first time I did it, it immediately stabilized my economy/techs by focusing on Merchants. Then once I had popped a couple Great Merchants, I switched to Scientists for making a beeline to Radio. I wanted to go Cultural victory and needed Eifel Tower before I popped the 100% culture switch. Then once the culture switch has thrown, I focused on Artists and it quickly caught up and surpassed my capital in culture and provided a awesome great artist farm to help keep the 3 culture cities even. I didn't even have Sistine Chapel, which would have made it ridiculous. It really is pretty god-like if you can get enough forests in there.

I have found that it can be excelent to just use it as a wonder pump, keep theo forests though don't chop them out, and then later make it your National park city you get lots of good gpp's form the wonders you have build there and then you get the specialist later.
It's a good idea to chop a few forests so you don't lose wonder races, just make sure you keep enough to grow back, and don't put anything else on the plots. Once you start building preserves they tend grow back pretty quickly.
Also, try to chop forests with multiple adjacent forest squares, this makes them grow back faster. Chopping the one in the middle of a 5 forest cross is ideal.

Is anyone else seeing the national park as a curse?

Don't get me wrong it's damn good, but when you see a good spot for it it twists your strategy. I tend to focus that city on wonders so that when the NP is available it'll be better. Unfortunately no chopping=painful wonder building = less other city improvements. No clearing of forest = slower population growth = less whipping. So I end up missing out on expansion, military, wonders and early GPP's.

How about you fellas?

@Xenocrates: That's EXACTLY what I'm wondering. I have no doubt that National Park outweighs any other nat. wonders in your GP farm (with the obvious exception of nat. epic)...but is it really that good that it outweighs the disadvantage of getting it that much later? Over the course of a whole game, which method would produce the greatest TOTAL number of Great people? Surely that's the most effective. If the food method just pips the forest method in total, even though the forest method is better at the end, then surely the food method is the best.

I think this question can only be solved by working out the absolute maximum no. of specialists a food-based GP farm can support, and how many a forest/national park city can support, and guesstimating the total number of GP points produced throughout the course of an entire game...

I like to use my capital as combined production/GP farm and my 2nd and 3rd city as big commerce generators. I try and get a settler out quickly so my capital can start focusing on wonder production while city #2 starts building the rest og my empire. Then I build Ironworks and Natl Epic in capitol. In addition to the production boost, the Ironworks lets you create 3 more engineer specialists, for a total of 9 in the late game. Then I can use the great engineers to build more wonders, and when I have no wonders to build it's also a great military production city.

My favorite leader for this strategy is Ramses. Industrial for the increased wonder production, and cheap forges in all my other cities, and spiritual so I can quickly switch to bureaucracy when I'm building wonders, and nationalism the rest of the time.

@Xenocrates: That's EXACTLY what I'm wondering. I have no doubt that National Park outweighs any other nat. wonders in your GP farm (with the obvious exception of nat. epic)...but is it really that good that it outweighs the disadvantage of getting it that much later? Over the course of a whole game, which method would produce the greatest TOTAL number of Great people? Surely that's the most effective. If the food method just pips the forest method in total, even though the forest method is better at the end, then surely the food method is the best.

I think this question can only be solved by working out the absolute maximum no. of specialists a food-based GP farm can support, and how many a forest/national park city can support, and guesstimating the total number of GP points produced throughout the course of an entire game...


I think it really depeds on the lay of the land and what your stategy is more than anything. Saving forests around your capital is only going to work in very specific situations where you a) have the forests, b) have the time to not chop them, c) have enough food resources to live without what beneath the forest canpoy. So that is super rare, and might be impossible at higher levels I would guess.

What I find a lot is my closest neighbor has a high forest capital, and not being as aggresive about getting Bronze Working as I am, when I capture it with an early rush, all the food resources are worked, but very few trees are chopped. That makes an ideal candidate, since you don't have to worry as much about growth at that point, the city will be an OK producer with the forests, and, if the food resources are good enough, you can use specialists there and its an OK early GP farm as well. In this case, I would guess this kind of city makes the most GP, since early it can be a specialist based GP farm (and might have a wonder or two as well), and late its an ubar NP/NE mega-eco-city. In this case, I would guess your GP production is maximized. But I'm still a bit of a newb, I just happen to have run into this a bunch. I've read people believe two GP farms is optimal now.

But, if you get a really productive Capital and can wonderspam, making NE in it right away might be better in the long run. Or if you find a really ideal GP farm candidate, or if you just don't have any good options for a NP/NE farm. I bet the majority of games are like this.

What I did notice with the couple of really ubar NP/NE cities I've had is the initial GP rate is insanely high. In the middle stages I'm trying to grow the population of that city to 20, in order to cover all the forest preserves, so I'm not using specialists there and my GP rate goes down. Once I hit NP, my rate goes way up to the 200 GPP range suddenly and a bunch of GP pop out very quickly. I timed it with a Golden Age once and it was just amazing. This can make a really awesome timing synergy with Cultural Victories. Because most of the game I am not worrying too much about culture, just preparing with spreading religions, temples, cathedrals, specific wonders, making a strong defensive military, etc. My focus is really teching to Radio which is where I like to flip the switch and do 100% culture, and all specialists focus on artist. If you time it right with the NP coming online you immediately get a large number of great artists to help your push to 3 legendary cities. Can you imagine all the Hippy Poets and Artists hanging out in the Forest Preserves making great works of art and dancing around naked?

Is anyone else seeing the national park as a curse?

Don't get me wrong it's damn good, but when you see a good spot for it it twists your strategy. I tend to focus that city on wonders so that when the NP is available it'll be better. Unfortunately no chopping=painful wonder building = less other city improvements. No clearing of forest = slower population growth = less whipping. So I end up missing out on expansion, military, wonders and early GPP's.

How about you fellas?

This is why what you really want to pull of the NP strategy is a good coastal city with a lot of seafood surounded by a lot of hills with forests all over them.
This is why I like to place it in the capital.
You from what I have seen a failry good chance at getting this for a start position. At least I always seem to.
My current game has 2 clams 1 fish and Corn but there are still a total of 12,13 (cannot remember for sure which) other times that are forested with a couple of forested hills. These provide the hammers to get you going on wonders without needing to chop all the time.
It still has an element of risk to it. (any wonder building does right :-) do I get it or not.
But the high food tiles getyour pop up and let you at least whip a cople pop points to finish the wonders a couple turns sooner than normal..

It is by no means a no brainer for a strategy but so far I like it.

Because you have high food and at least decent production. you get the wonders for the early gpp and the park to finish it out.

In my last game my capital had four dear so I had a LOT of food from a few tiles and later I could turn those forest tiles into preserves for free specialists. Also it was on a coast but also near a fresh water lake, so the lake was 3 food a tile with a lighthouse.

Now with BTS, you need those frigging GP!! to found Corporations. How to you manage it? I got a GM with Economics should I just hand on to him utile I can found Sushi?



I get a Great Merchant by picking a high food city, usually with farms, and build (or pop rush) a marketplace and grocer in it. Colossus, too, if coastal. Run 2 to 4 merchants at all times. Be careful to not allow the computer to assign other types of GP. You probably won't get a GP from this city very soon, but you are saving GM points. When I discover biology, then I start my first golden age. Switch to caste system on turn 1 and run as many merchants in this city as possible. A golden age also doubles GP points! You should get a Great Merchant soon after you discover medicine. Don't forget to switch out of caste system before the golden age ends.

I think in BTS you should have at least two or three GP farms... With the additions of Sid's Sushi and the National Park, it really makes no sense to me to stick with only one GP farm.

I think in BTS you should have at least two or three GP farms... With the additions of Sid's Sushi and the National Park, it really makes no sense to me to stick with only one GP farm.


Indeed . One GP farm usually doesn't cut it . But making one of my production cities ( i.e. city that puts out . .. .. .. . load of hammers) a secondary GP farm seems to work too . I don't neccessarly have to put many specialists in that secondary ( or third string) city since I can construct wonders there more quickly and many of them add to the GP growth anyways . Still , doesn't hurt to have a couple specialists there .

And the specialists I usually assign in those production cities are mostly Gr.Engineers since the buildings are there to make them specialists . Pumping out a GE at a decent rate is pretty nice but I try to plan ahead on which wonders I want them to rush .

@Xenocrates: That's EXACTLY what I'm wondering. I have no doubt that National Park outweighs any other nat. wonders in your GP farm (with the obvious exception of nat. epic)...but is it really that good that it outweighs the disadvantage of getting it that much later? Over the course of a whole game, which method would produce the greatest TOTAL number of Great people? Surely that's the most effective. If the food method just pips the forest method in total, even though the forest method is better at the end, then surely the food method is the best.

I think this question can only be solved by working out the absolute maximum no. of specialists a food-based GP farm can support, and how many a forest/national park city can support, and guesstimating the total number of GP points produced throughout the course of an entire game...

I think that the best strategy is to have more than one GP farm.

I find that in the very early game, my capitol generates a few GP due to wonders as has been mentioned earlier. While the choice of the type is less controlable, all GP can be useful in the early game, so it doesn't matter much.

About my 3rd or 4th city is usually a more planned GP farm. I try to have at least three food resources, primarliy sea food if possible, in this city for the benefits that you mentioned.

In the late game, I find that it is best to have my GP farm with both the national forest and the national epic with mostly preserved forests in the city cross. If I can find a city with mostly grassland forest tiles and a couple of food resources it will be the prime candidate. In addition to the free specialists that the national forest gives, the heppy and healthy benefits help the city to grow very large supplying even more specialists.

I have never kept track of the total number of GP, but late into the game I am still cranking them out on a regular basis.

how do libraries and temples and unis help Great people points

how do libraries and temples and unis help Great people points

You need libraries to have scientist specialists and temples for priests and the specialists help the GP points.

how do libraries and temples and unis help Great people points

Yes , libraries and temples give you the ability to appoint those valuable specialists . Besides that libraries give you a decent bonus to beaker production very early in the game . They also give you some culture .

Usually my GP Farm is a captured enemy capital, typically they have heaps of food and some production for the buildings and wonders.

But this thread's timing is sheer gold - in my current game I messed around and didn't bother with a food-based GP farm, instead I have a wonderspammed capital with NEpic and about 10 forests left still, and I had no idea about the NPark potential until this thread popped up... sounds brilliant! I'm gonna try it.

Thanks Mexis;

I just finish a space victory and indeed Charlemagne capital, my science City plus my Capital were all GP Farm Marchant/Scientist/Scientist

And for earler GP...Im trying an SE for the first time....No good result so far

If your going to play for GPs, you might as well start in the industrial era. Before that, you can generate 2-4 and assuming that one goes toward an academy in your bureaucracy capital and one goes to a golden age (your third), that leaves 2. One for education, and one (engineer if you ran an engineer alone after your first forge) for?

Anyway, 4 GPs is as agood as you can do until industrial thanks to 700 years of alphabet added to philosophy/caste system.

No more cavs in 1000ad (now, i dunno), no more astro in 400ad (now, 700ad), no more lib in 125bc (now, 800ad). The best (scientist) GP strat has been nerfed to broke.

If your going to play for GPs, you might as well start in the industrial era. Before that, you can generate 2-4 and assuming that one goes toward an academy in your bureaucracy capital and one goes to a golden age (your third), that leaves 2. One for education, and one (engineer if you ran an engineer alone after your first forge) for?

Anyway, 4 GPs is as agood as you can do until industrial thanks to 700 years of alphabet added to philosophy/caste system.

No more cavs in 1000ad (now, i dunno), no more astro in 400ad (now, 700ad), no more lib in 125bc (now, 800ad). The best (scientist) GP strat has been nerfed to broke.

Are you kidding me? You seriously think the most GP you can get before the Industrial Era is 4?

And build an invading army to conquer 1-2 civs? Let me know when u get your 5th with one civ conquested. I'm guessing 1400s+. How about without a philo leader?

Perhaps I was assuming some parameters.

Quick speed, no tech_trading, no barbs, no tribal villages, no random (partisans break game / ruin MP agression), preferably an isolated island start.

Post a save with 5 GP (explain where they went) and 1 civ either vassal or out of game.

It is difficult to discuss strat with the wide range of options.

I play SP to prep strat in MP. Obviously, noble+ wins under the above options are exceedingly easy. Against players is different. Nonetheless, if you can take an AI civ, chances are that a player would have less defense. People have 1 warrior 10 population capitals in 1000ad, the AI does not.

Multiplayer, Internet Games, Log in

And/or, if you would, explain how you get alot of GPs and include the turn/year they arrive. Thanks in advance. Until Sushi Corp, I cannot generate an appreciable amount of GPs, and at that point, they give me 2-4 turns of research for lightbulb. GA ftw.

Perhaps a 1st scientist GA in a 2 scientist specialist cap could get 2 more pretty quick.

I usually do nat. epic with oxford university at my science city, better if I can also get great library there. I build ironworks and nat. park at my production city, a city with lots of forests naturally. this makes a great gr engineer factory ! finally I build wall street at the city my shrine. so I usually try to kep these three seperated (eg, try not to build the gr library in a shrine city)

I reckon it's a waste to cripple a good city until Biology just to give it National Park. The free specialists don't care how good the city is, as long as there's forest. I find it's best to build in some crappy tundra-forest city (you know, the sort you found just to grab a seafood resource and some coastal trade and commerce), where clearing the forest wouldn't help, and where the city has bugger-all potential before Biology anyway. It's then a great city to stick factory/forge/industrial park in and run engo specialists for a Mining Inc GP, or to stick espionage buildings in and run as an espionage centre (specialists are by far the best way to run espionage anyway).
It's likewise a waste of National Epic to wait until National Park a couple of eras later.
I wouldn't ever even begin to contemplate putting it in my capital; those forests are worth waaaaaay too many early workers, settlers and axemen when it's most crucial.

Merchants are easy enough; a specialised money city (to pay for a higher science rate) with a bunch of merchant specialists is bound to generate a couple, and it's just a matter of having the discipline to save one.