What should the Chinese capital be?

Xi'an and Chang'an are two different names for the same city.

Beijing, just because.

Mmmm. Chang An is the ancient name for Xi An. The former means Eternal(literally long) peace, whilst the second means Western peace. The city you want up there would be Luo Yang.

Luo Yang!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ideally, it should be Luoyang or Chang'an. Nanjing does not belong in this conversation, at least not over the likes of Luoyang, Kaifeng, Hangzhou, and Anyang.

In Chinese Beijing (or Pekin - everything depends on the romanization method) means Northern Capital and Nanjing (or Nanking) means Southern Capital. So why shouldn't be Nanjing a candidate?

I wonder if there are any experts in Chinese history here. I know that China consisted of several feudng kingdoms for the most part of its ancient and medieval history. Occasianally one of them would unite the whole nation for a short period of time but eventually the country broke up again. So I am assuming that various cities could be the candidates for capital (depending on the rulling kingdom)

In Chinese Beijing (or Pekin - everything depends on the romanization method) means Northern Capital and Nanjing (or Nanking) means Southern Capital. So why shouldn't be Nanjing a candidate?

I wonder if there are any experts in Chinese history here. I know that China consisted of several feudng kingdoms for the most part of its ancient and medieval history. Occasianally one of them would unite the whole nation for a short period of time but eventually the country broke up again. So I am assuming that various cities could be the candidates for capital (depending on the rulling kingdom)
There is a list of all the historical capitals of China here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_capitals_of_China

In Chinese Beijing (or Pekin - everything depends on the romanization method) means Northern Capital and Nanjing (or Nanking) means Southern Capital. So why shouldn't be Nanjing a candidate?

I wonder if there are any experts in Chinese history here. I know that China consisted of several feudng kingdoms for the most part of its ancient and medieval history. Occasianally one of them would unite the whole nation for a short period of time but eventually the country broke up again. So I am assuming that various cities could be the candidates for capital (depending on the rulling kingdom)

You're on drugs. For most of its history, China was united as a single country ruled by several different dynasties. The country borders however changed constantly.
The main dynasties noted for being "China Proper" were Qin, Han, Sui, Tang, Sung, Ming, Qing. Of these, Han and Sung had interruptions, with the latter seeing a major loss of territory and Qing not really being Chinese, but just these 7 dynasties account for ~1600 years of China being a single entity over a period of ~2000 years. Periods of warring states did not last very long, threats of invasion and occupation of parts of China by foreign nations lasted longer.

The choice of capital should probably remain Beijing as I think it has the longest history of being a Chinese capital, though I personally prefer Chang'an because I believe it's more culturally "Chinese". Beijing was/is an awful location for a Chinese capital to be honest.

^ That's the remarkable thing about China. And why up until about 200 years ago it was pretty constantly the most technologically advanced and cultured civilzation on Earth.

The choice of capital should probably remain Beijing as I think it has the longest history of being a Chinese capital, though I personally prefer Chang'an because I believe it's more culturally "Chinese". Beijing was/is an awful location for a Chinese capital to be honest.

Chang'an and Luoyang have both been the capital of China for much much longer than Beijing as both have been capital of China for about 2000 years.

I prefer Chang'an or Luoyang for 3000BC start and Beijing for 600AD start. It wasn't call Chang'an or Luoyang in 3000BC but the capital, or center of activities was there. In 600AD, Chang'an was indeed the capital for Imperial Tang Dynasty. But then Beijing was the capital from 1200AD to present day almost uninterrupted. So...

I always want it to be Xi-an cause its Qin's capital but Bejing makes more sense than any other choice IMHO. Xi-an is the more impressive to look at though. Standing on the city walls today is far more impressive than walking around the Forbidden City or anything else for that matter in Beijing. I still voted Beijing though.

Heres a link to a photo I took there. (ok its just a shamless plug to say go see the place!) http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=468201

^ That's the remarkable thing about China. And why up until about 200 years ago it was pretty constantly the most technologically advanced and cultured civilzation on Earth.

China started stagnating in technology due to many factors, lack of competition from the surrounding countries technologically was probably one of them as it made them rather complacent.
Into the Qing dynasty when the western powers started aggressively "trading" with China, many people were against reform and modernisation even after several humiliating defeats as they were stuck with the idea that China was going to eternally remain as a superpower because "it has always been as such".

^and it had "always been such" until around 250 years ago. For better or worse.

But anyways, I voted Chang'an. (and not Xi'an, because isn't that the modern way oof saying the city name?)

I prefer Chang'an or Luoyang for 3000BC start and Beijing for 600AD start. It wasn't call Chang'an or Luoyang in 3000BC but the capital, or center of activities was there. In 600AD, Chang'an was indeed the capital for Imperial Tang Dynasty. But then Beijing was the capital from 1200AD to present day almost uninterrupted. So...


Nanjing was Chiang Kai-Shek's capital until he fled to Taiwan in 1949.

I feel Beijing is somewhat inappropriate as the Chinese capital, particularly in the 3000 b.c. start. As far as I know, Beijing proper (as opposed to various settlements in the region) was founded by the Mongolians, and I always felt it should have been included in the Mongolian core territory, or at least shouldn't flip to the Chinese when China resurfaces. Whenever I play Mongolia I move my capital to Beijing as early as possible, as it was both a Mongolian center of power, and it's just a flat out better position. Of course, if and when China declares independence, this leaves me in a lurch.

A central city location would seem more plausible; It's my understanding that ancient Chinese civilization was centered a ways south of Beijing. Xi'an seems a good choice. Shouldn't the Chang'an and Xi'an votes be added together? They are, after all, the same city.

Well, LuoYang is old enough for it became the new capital of Dynasty Zhou in 770BC, known as LuoYi. But the position of the old city is different from the current one. Besides, according to the archaeological result, the old city is now severl meters undergound. Xi'an, called Chang'an in the past, is regarded the "traditional" capital of China because it was the capital of Qin, Han and Tang. The same as LuoYang, the city of Xi'an has been moving its position in the past 3000+ years.

Xi'an and Chang'an are two different names for the same city.

Sorry, didn't know that until you posted.:cry:

The reason why I don't like the Chynese starting from Beijing is because...

1. Historically, the Chinese first flourished in the Yangtze River Valley. In RFC, the would do the same but first in the Yellow River Valley, which makes no sense. Oh, and in addition, it means that Northern China will usually have more people than Southern China, which is unrealstic historically.

2. Gameplay-wise, Beijing is too close to the Mongolian spawn area. That can be REALLY annoying.:mad:

1. Historically, the Chinese first flourished in the Yangtze River Valley. In RFC, the would do the same but first in the Yellow River Valley, which makes no sense. Oh, and in addition, it means that Northern China will usually have more people than Southern China, which is unrealstic historically.

Are you kidding me?!

The civ of China originated in middle part of HuangHe (Yellow River) Valley, when the ChangJiang (Yangtze River) Valley was still full of barbarians. A majority of this valley was conquered & mergered into the Kingdom Chu (as an vassal of Dynast Zhou in its early years), and finally became a part of Dynast Qin -- a well-known empire of China.

Anyang or Nanjing. I would rather see Anyang, but one takes what they can. Better access to marble anyhow.

Anyang or Nanjing. I would rather see Anyang, but one takes what they can. Better access to marble anyhow.
I'm afraid neither is "appropriate".
Anyang was the capital of Yin (later name for Dynast Shang), long long history, but is (and has been for a long time) just a relic among farmland, no more a city. When we talk about a "capital", we talk about a city "alive".
As for Nanjing, it was a capital for several kingdoms, but never an empire (a dynasty which rules the whole China) until Dynast Ming in 1368AD, even after Beijing. So if Beijing not, neither can Nanjing. What's more, the title of capital was moved to Beijing by Ming's 3rd emperor in 1403AD, making Nanjing's capital history only 36 years.

I'm afraid neither is "appropriate".
Anyang was the capital of Yin (later name for Dynast Shang), long long history, but is (and has been for a long time) just a relic among farmland, no more a city. When we talk about a "capital", we talk about a city "alive".
As for Nanjing, it was a capital for several kingdoms, but never an empire (a dynasty which rules the whole China) until Dynast Ming in 1368AD, even after Beijing. So if Beijing not, neither can Nanjing. What's more, the title of capital was moved to Beijing by Ming's 3rd emperor in 1403AD, making Nanjing's capital history only 36 years.

You mean you do.

When I talk about starting 'capital' in a game that starts in 3000 BCE, I'm talking "Dawn-Of-Civ-in-a-river-valley." Therefore, Anyang is the best spot, as it's IN said river valley.

And, if you're going to get technical..."In politics, a capital (also called capital city or political capital — although the latter phrase has a second meaning based on an alternative sense of "capital") is the center of government."

Which means even a country hovel qualifies, if it's the center of government. As for the term empire...lets not go there please...it's a misnomer Fixaris uses anyway.

Can we reignite the discussion on this please? I really think Luoyang would be preferable, since it centrally located and has most of the same resources as Beijing, and historically older.

I profer Xi'an but it isnt a good enough site. Luoyang would be my second choice though.

Xi'an for me.

Bejing, awsome name and its current capitol

Outside of the discussions about what capitol is best, most are ignoring the gameplay concept of this. Rhye and others have talked about this before. This topic is bringing back a lot of deja-vu, heh. Bejing, gameplay-wise, despite being so close to Mongolia's spawn area, is the best choice. If the capitol is south, then China expands southward way too much, and nearly completely ignores the north; I tried it myself a few times, and when they spawn at a more southern capitol, the borders get really messed up, with them going right into Khmer before they spawn. I know gameplay-wise for the player, it would be an interesting twist, but the AI just messes it up.

Also, northern China is a production mega-house. I like expanded evenly both ways, not just being locked right in the middle of China.

Outside of the discussions about what capitol is best, most are ignoring the gameplay concept of this. Rhye and others have talked about this before. This topic is bringing back a lot of deja-vu, heh. Bejing, gameplay-wise, despite being so close to Mongolia's spawn area, is the best choice. If the capitol is south, then China expands southward way too much, and nearly completely ignores the north; I tried it myself a few times, and when they spawn at a more southern capitol, the borders get really messed up, with them going right into Khmer before they spawn. I know gameplay-wise for the player, it would be an interesting twist, but the AI just messes it up.

Also, northern China is a production mega-house. I like expanded evenly both ways, not just being locked right in the middle of China.

Same viewpoint as yours.
As I have mentioned in the Turkish capital thread, gameplay is also a crucial element. Additionally to Fallensig's points, Luoyang, Xian, Chang'an....these cities which are located in the middle of China are nearly surrounded by mountains in the map of RFC. Even if there will not be any negative impact on the development, the present strategies will have to be greatly altered:lol:

Also as a Chinese myself, it is "quite" unnatural for me to see Chinese having capitals elsewhere:lol: (Not important though:lol: )

This issue, if only based on historical factors, may lead to a great debate, so let's focus more on gameplay:)

Being the God that he is, Rhye can flatten mountains, move resources...:)

We are trying to be more historically correct, right? (Jerusalem now has the Church of the Nativity, Europe has more time in the Medieval Ages, Christianity is binding all those nations, trying hard for Islam to spread faster, etc) So gameplay can be adapted to make history more correctly simulated. It is very easy to put more forests near Beijing while moving some of the resources down to Luoyang (which has 2 mountains in its big cross, as opposed to 1 desert for Beijing). Luoyang is right on the Yellow River which is good for future production (levees, 3 Gorges Dam). A central location for the capital will also allow easier spread of religion. Conversely, Beijing will no longer be able to rely just on cultural defenses when the Mongolians spawn.

As far as the AI is concerned, it can be directed not to found more cities south (just like the British who always found the 4 cities they're supposed to). If they over extend in Khmer too bad for them, they'll lose those cities. Historically southern China wasn't "sinicized" until the late Han dynasty, so current game play isn't correct either.

I don't think Rhye is going to do any of this though.:(

As far as the AI is concerned, it can be directed not to found more cities south (just like the British who always found the 4 cities they're supposed to).

Do they though? In several games I've seen a Celtic city (don't remember the name, unfortunately) sitting where Dublin normally is - generally being culture swamped by Belfast :lol: It's not there when the British spawn, so it must spawn afterwards which implies they were tardy settling Ireland. Rhye, what exactly is this city? When does it spawn?

As for the movement of the Church of the Nativity, I got the impression that was as much for gameplay as for historical reasons, and clearly gameplay is of high priority. I don't want to see China regularly losing half its cities to the Khmer, that seems screwy to me.

Do they though? In several games I've seen a Celtic city (don't remember the name, unfortunately) sitting where Dublin normally is - generally being culture swamped by Belfast :lol: It's not there when the British spawn, so it must spawn afterwards which implies they were tardy settling Ireland. Rhye, what exactly is this city? When does it spawn?


it's Dublin

Similarly, I think the capital of the United States should be Philadelphia. It was the first capital, after all.

Similarly, I think the capital of the United States should be Philadelphia. It was the first capital, after all.

It was not, however, for long.

Washington was built to be the capital, Philadelphia was an extended provisional government.

it's Dublin

I saw that too a while back. Al-Cliath or something. It was celtic.

Do they though? In several games I've seen a Celtic city (don't remember the name, unfortunately) sitting where Dublin normally is - generally being culture swamped by Belfast :lol: It's not there when the British spawn, so it must spawn afterwards which implies they were tardy settling Ireland. Rhye, what exactly is this city? When does it spawn?

As for the movement of the Church of the Nativity, I got the impression that was as much for gameplay as for historical reasons, and clearly gameplay is of high priority. I don't want to see China regularly losing half its cities to the Khmer, that seems screwy to me.

It's the Irish name for Dublin...I think that it should be producing more culture so it doesn't just flip to England

Áth Cliath is Irish for Dublin county; the city is called Baile Átha Cliath.

I think Dublin should not be founded as a scripted event at all. Dublin was a Viking city built on a small Celtic settlement, incorporated in 988 AD. England always seems quite eager to found it; its removal would slow English growth a bit, but it would still exist in most games.

Áth Cliath is Irish for Dublin county; the city is called Baile Átha Cliath.

I think Dublin should not be founded as a scripted event at all. Dublin was a Viking city built on a small Celtic settlement, incorporated in 988 AD. England always seems quite eager to found it; its removal would slow English growth a bit, but it would still exist in most games.

I think it should be founded and let the english try and conquer it...ireland wasn't fully conquered for centuries afterwards and even then there were numerous rebellions against the english supported by the french and spanish at different times

I think it should be founded and let the english try and conquer it...ireland wasn't fully conquered for centuries afterwards and even then there were numerous rebellions against the english supported by the french and spanish at different times

But Dublin was under English control whenever they controlled any significant portion of Ireland in the past. If it's supposed to be a specifically Irish resisting city, Galway would probably be most appropriate.

The most appropriate rebel city would be Cork. Capital of the so-called "Rebel County".

Just an idea: if the problem with China's capital being Luoyang or Xi'an is that AI China then doesn't settle the north, why not have Beijing spawn as an independent city called Yanjing or Zhongdu in 900 CE? (Representing the Liao and then the Jurchen, although it could theoretically spawn much earlier as Ji in 400 BCE.) The AI appears to be far more aggressive towards the independents in the new patch, so I imagine an AI China would pounce on the target if they hadn't settled up there yet, especially if their spawn area still covered the site.

Historically, Chang'an (Also known as Xi'an) should be the capitol. Especially the leader of choice is Qin ShiHuang.

Hi ,

nanjing or xi an with the forbidden palace in bejing ( !! )


having tested the idea of letting bejing be owned by the independent , the results of that are not at all promising , for the balance the start should stay at bejing or why not devide it over two locations , .... ??

Have a nice day

The Chinese capital should definitely be something other than Beijing. Xi'an sounds good, but would its culture somehow affect the birth of Lhasa?

Best solution is still Luoyang, because Xi'an(Chang'an) has too many mountains. Luoyang will allow the spawning of an independent Seoul more often. The only problem is that some of the resources up near Beijing need to be moved closer to Luoyang to allow them to be competitive in early game.

It was not, however, for long.

Washington was built to be the capital, Philadelphia was an extended provisional government.

First capital for US was actually in New York City, albeit VERY temporary. George Washington was sworn at Federal Hall near Wall Street. They then moved it to Philadelphia while they began planning the city of Washington for the permanent capital.

At the same time, Japan does start of with Kyoto (instead of Tokyo), since Tokyo wasn't made the capital under after the Meiji Restoration.

I'd still put Beijing as the capital at this point. Though several cities have served as capitals at some point, Beijing has still served as a significant capital for a large portion of Chinese history, including today as well.

I would say Xi'an/Chang'an for 3000 B.C. and Beijing for 600 A.D.

Best solution is still Luoyang, because Xi'an(Chang'an) has too many mountains. Luoyang will allow the spawning of an independent Seoul more often. The only problem is that some of the resources up near Beijing need to be moved closer to Luoyang to allow them to be competitive in early game.

I was wondering about the map area for China. It seems that the mountains around Xi'an down to Chengdu seem a bit much. While there's a lot of mountains in the area, especially compared to the Himalayas to the west, would it make more sense to place hills there? It'd also just help to stimulate growth in these areas (as opposed to having just mountain spaces that provide no food or support).

I would say Xi'an/Chang'an for 3000 B.C. and Beijing for 600 A.D.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm still sticking to Luoyang, which was the capital of Eastern Zhou. Anyang is closest to Ye, the Shang dynasty capital (first archaeologically documented Chinese dynasty), but for gameplay reasons Anyang is rather wasteful. Chang'an was simply too far west to be defensible, even though the Western Han dynasty and later dynasties tried it there again.

And as far as the Qin being the first to unite China and had the capital in Xianyang (south of Chang'an), one should read Wikipedia on the Qin in the Spring and Autumn period:

"Qin was in a rather backward condition compared to its rapidly transforming neighbours to the east. The demography of Qin consisted of a large proportion of Sinicized semi-barbarian people, believed to be descended from the Rong tribe of the steppes. This was a main factor that caused a distinct unease and discrimination amongst the other states in China toward Qin at the time."

Only later did their power grow to enable it to unite China, and the Qin dynasty did not last long, whereas the Han dynasty did (and again had Luoyang as the capital in the Eastern Han).

As for game play, even if some mountains were changed to hills, Xi'an cannot grow big until windmills (see Hattusas). Whereas Luoyang can be a monster site with lots of rivered plains and only 2 unusable tiles (mountains).

I wonder, does this thread have any effect on will the capital of China remain Beijing in the 3000 AD start? Will Rhye read this thread? Even if so, would he do anything to change it?

I have a solution: Edit it yourself. Get python, and in Assets, Python, there is a city name manager, and barabarian city founding thing. Mess with that, and you can change it to whatever you personally want.

I didn't mean that, just wanted to know what people are going after here. This could be discussed to death but the original modder still wouldn't do anything about it. I wondered if that was the collective objective here or do people want Rhye to really change it.