http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/logo_small_copy_oW9.jpg

NOTE: Unfortunately, this project has been cancelled. The current version is built for Civ BTS v3.13. Saints and Sinners DOES NOT function with BTS v3.17, and iwll crash the game.

Some people have asked for the source code for SNS. I will be posting that in the next few days, and a link will be provided here.

Thanks to everyone who play tested SNS.

Known Issues

Thanks to everyone who is trying out the Alpha version of Saints and Sinners. Below is a list of confirmed bugs and issues.

Fixes and Upgrades in Latest Patch

Increasing Stash slider now correctly decrements Gold
Spreading a secret society now immediately updates the city info billboard
Blaming a civic correctly updates maintenance costs
'No Negative Leader Traits' option correctly turns off special buildings associated with a vice
Fixes to prevent crashing for players without shader support (waiting on confirmation of fix)
Amount of free food granted by Expansive trait reduced
Added +25% copycat research bonus to Resourceful Virtue. Also increased number of free units for a newly discovered from 1 to 2.
Pedia text for Bonuses, Leaders, Buildings
Game now notifies you when a building goes obsolete
Added Monastery as a cheap building for Philosophical
Added Cathedral as a cheap building for Creative
New logo and splash screen


Bugs / Broken Stuff

Fatalistic trait triggers panic in wrong years on Marathon speed
Zealous leaders can fulfill Missionary requirement with missionaries of any religion, not just state religion
Blaming a civic on the Civics screen when no previous civic was blamed doesn't trigger the Revolution button until you roll over another button
Font missing characters for Fast Food, Plating, Cola, DNA, and Nanofibers resources


Typos and Missing Text

Executive of Equitax called 'Standard Ethanol' executive instead of Equitax Lawyer (sorry, missed this one AGAIN :P)
Missing pedia and advise entries for corporations
Espionage mission claims to lower cost of stealing techs, but actually lowers research in the targeted city instead
Espionage mission claims to increase inflation, but actually increases city maintenance
Some leaders missing diplomacy text


Possible Future Improvements

Add more info about why a espionage mission is unavailable
Add ability to stop blaming a civic
Show Blamed Civics on Active Civics screen
Better explanation of when spy will flee after a mission
Divine and Corporate secret societies should shut off flow of money


Future AI Fixes

Teach AI to pursue Espionage victory
Teach Zealous AIs to properly use missionaries
Teach AIs to blame civics

Mod Features

Vices
Vices are negative leader traits. Part of the challenge of Saints and Sinners is overcoming your leader's Vices, and exploiting those of your rivals.

Aloof
Excuse me? Did you say something? I didn't think so. Your attitude has alienated you from the rest of the world, resulting in -50% political influence and -1 commerce per trade route. Not only are you vulnerable to the UN and the Apostolic Palace, rivals can use the Blamed Civic feature to drive up your maintenance costs.

Brutal
Your idea of empathy is free salt to go with those wounds. Invading a city leaves a trail of messy bodies behind. Where better to put them than in a Mass Grave (-2 Production, -1 Happiness)? Luckily, you can build Atrocity Museums to rewrite history with yourself as the victim of those vicious currs. Also, your populace never celebrates your rule with a 'We Love the King' day.

Extravagant
Why just one gold mine when you can have two? It takes 2 copies of any luxury resource for your greed to be satisfied. More than any other civilization this leaves you vulnerable to opportunistic pillaging and trade embargos designed to cut off your supply of fine goods.

Fatalistic
The sky is falling down! Your belief in everything paranormal leads your people to panic in 1 AD, 1000 AD, and 2000 AD. You also lose your cool if one of your cities falls to the enemy, or a nuclear strike lands on your head. Rival civilizations can exploit these weaknesses to great effect, so watch out when the nukes start flying!

Gluttonous
The best things in life are edible. Your uncontrolled eating depletes all cities of 1 food, taxing your start-up cities to find a good source of sustenance nearby or face starvation. Also, your flabby workers can only run half as far as your rivals.

Hawkish
For freedom! Or something. You've maintained power by promising to punish your rivals. Now your population requires you to make demands or go to war to avoid masses of unhappy mobs. You must also appease the populace by maintaining 1 military unit in a city for every 4 population points there.

Stubborn
Most people wouldn't walk into a hail of gunfire just to prove a point. But then, most people are not you. Anytime you are attacked by a unit with limited damage capacity your units take an extra 10% max damage before bothering to retreat. Be very wary of bombers and siege units, because they are coming after YOU!

Idealistic
Whoever said Idealism was a virtue wasn't a politician. Your moral reservations--whether real or feigned--prevent you from selecting any civic below tier 2 (though you are strangely willing to hold onto early civics until your grand ideas come to fruition.) In addition, you are unable to raze cities.

Libertine
Lead me not into temptation, unless of course you're hot. Your libidinous nature has led Hedonism to become rampant throughout your empire. It prevents religion from flowing naturally into your borders and results in -2 Espionage, -1 Gold per city. It also makes your rivals that much less likely to want to share Open Borders with you, as your lechery can spread.

Maverick
You've figured out the answer to the world's problems. Too bad the rest of the world doesn't agree. As soon as you or any rival has the technology to use your favorite civic, you are forced to switch to it. The populace rewards your cowboy shenanigans by rallying -25% less defense to protect your cities. You are thus vulnerable on two levels--inflexible in your policies, and an easy target for overrunning militarily, especially in newly founded or conquered cities.

Narcissistic
There's nothing you can think of that wouldn't look better without your face on it. Your narcissism means that any city without a statue of yours truly suffers -100 culture. And as the years press on, and you encounter bigger and more efficient ways to construct likenesses of yourself, expect your older statues to no longer satisfy your vanity. To make life the easiest for you, it's a good idea to track down marble, silver, gold, and other materials befitting of your statues. Just keep in mind the materials required become more exclusive as your ego grows.

Pampered
The world is a wonderful place as long as you view it through sculptured windows on a comfy couch with servants to attend to your every need. You suffer +25% war weariness and must gradually increase your spending on Culture, to the tune of 10% during the classical age and 20% during the Renaissance.

Paranoid
They're all out to get you! Your paranoia means you spend more and more on your espionage efforts, possibly at the expense of research or gold. You can not spend less than 10% on espionage during the Classical era, and not less than 20% after the Renaissance. In addition, any time a rival succeeds at a spy mission against you, your suspicions may lead you to eliminate one of your own spies.

Zealous
Onward Christian (or whatever) soldiers! Your appetite for the divine means your soldiers heal 10% slower when there's no missionaries around to validate their purpose in life. Also, once you choose a state religion, you're stuck with it forever. Be especially wary of multi-front attacks, because your clerics can't be everywhere at once.

Virtues
Protective
Units can fortify for 6 extra turns. Also, can perform 'Spring Attacks'--lose only 5% fortification bonus per move as long as they stay within borders. Walls are free in any city founded. Double production speed of Fortress, Bunker.

Imperialistic
-15% Unit Upgrade Costs, +25% Build Speed of Settler, ICBM

Expansive
+2 Health per city. Extra food for all cities every time a new city is acquired. Double speed Harbor, Granary.

Creative
+100% Golden Age duration. +2 Culture / City. Double production speed of Arena, Theater, Library.

Aggressive
All land, sea, and air units start with Combat I. Double speed Barracks, Drydock.

Resourceful (NEW)
On acquiring a technology that unlocks a unit, receive 1 copy of that unit free, even if you don't have access to the resources required. +50% hammers from chopping.

Tactical (NEW)
All land units start with Amphibious, Guerrilla promotions. Units can upgrade outside borders.

Patriotic (NEW)
+10% military build speed. No tech pre-reqs to build national wonders (but other kinds of pre-reqs still apply.)

Organized, Financial, Spiritual, and Philosophical are unchanged.

Conspiracy Victory
The Conspiracy Victory is a new victory type. It involves out spying and ultimately outsmarting your rivals while appearing on the surface to be harmless.

The first step in winning a Conspiracy Victory is obtaining a Secret Society. The society must be founded by one of your spies in a city that has any of the following kinds of buildings:
- An obsolete World Wonder.
- A holy shrine
- A corporate headquarters

Found the society costs 2000 gold and deducts 1000 culture from the city. Guilds is a pre-requisite tech.

Once the society is formed, your spies are able to perform the "Spread Secret Society" mission in rival territory. When you perform the mission, you select the building in which to hide a branch of the society. You can only place the society in a building that grants a commerce bonus. The type you pick (Culture, Gold, Research, Espionage, or a new commerce called Stash) determines the benefits the society grants.


Gold - Rival's empire experiences increased inflation.
Culture - Increases odds of culture flipping the city and enables culture flips on cities that are conquested.
Research - To be determined.
Espionage - Spies performing missions warp back to this city instead of the capital if it is closer.
Stash - At this time no buildings provide this commerce. It is linked to the "Screw the People Victory." Details forthcoming.


Only 1 secret society can exist in a city at a time, but rival secret societies can disengage you from a city if they spend 50% more spy points to place a society branch of their own. Each time a branch is "flipped" out, the cost of putting a new one there increases.

You win a Conspiracy victory when you control at least 76% of the world population.


Spying Changes
Play testing has resulted in some changes to the overall way spies work in order to make Conspiracy Victories more manageable.

Spies now earn experience points for missions. Most missions grant 1 XP for a success.
Some missions require XP to perform.
If a spy mission fails, the spy is not always killed. Spy loses experience points first. If points are reduced below zero, spy is caught and eliminated, and the rival is notified. If the spy has XP left over, spy aborts mission and flees to capital (or nearest espionage-friendly secret society branch).
The amount of XP a spy loses when caught is equal to the number of buildings in the city that produce espionage (regardless of how much Espionage that building produces.)



New Civics

Plutocracy
+25% XP within borders, +100% Great General points

Nanny State
+20% production per city, -1 gold from winery, +2 health from hospital

Unionization
-50% worker build speed, +25% Stash, Can build improvements on tiles with no natural yield

Usury
+50% gold from pillaging, +25% espionage in capital

Sanctimony
+50% Political Influence, -2 Happy per City with State Religion


Corporation List

Yum! Burger
Big Cola
Equitax
Celebontology
Friends of Psychics
Envirobust
Helloburton
Verdsace
Pharmatech Labs


Included Leaders

in current patch:

Hirohito (by Chugginator)
Dido
Kim Jong-il (by Bernie14)
Mahmoud (by Bernie 14)
Harald Fairhair


next patch:

Caligula (by Ehkmek)
Nebuchadnezzar (originally designed as Hiram of Phoenicia, by Amra)




Other Changes

Numerous Changes to Early Game Tech Tree
Cost of Missionaries, Scouts, Explorers Decreased
Cost of Spies Increased
Incidence of Marble, Stone, Horses on Map Increased
Changes to Pre-Reqs for Building Most National Wonders
Goody Huts Never Pop Technologies
Monasteries No Longer Go Obsolete
Certain World Wonders Now Obsolete
Fortresses (formerly Castles) Obsolete Later (w/ Steel)
Fortress (formerly Castle) and Bunker both provide +5% heal rate


The Future
Screw the People Victory Details
A new Commerce, called 'Stash', has been introduced. Spending on Stash is unlocked by Banking. The stash represents money stolen from your empire (sort of the 'Swiss Bank Account' of the Civ world.) Spending on Stash is like spending on Gold, except that only 5% of the money spent on stash actually makes it into your coffers. The rest is used to secure payoffs, etc, and is wasted, to the detriment of your empire.

Spending on stash is risky, and there is a chance of exposure. This chance is larger if your stealing is blatant. It's much safer to steal small amounts of Stash at a time than to try to rip off your people all at once. Rival empires can also use the U.N. to call you out on your stealing. You will want ample courthouses, jails, and banks to cover your tracks.

Once you have secured a sufficient Stash nest egg (the exact amount is not yet determined but will probably end up around 2500-5000 Stash), you have the option of abandoning your empire. When you do this it is sort of like creating a colony, except that ALL cities are lost. You (and any other players on your team) become rogue leaders on the run. Any Stash your empire had is converted to Gold.

An avatar representing your leader appears on the map. The leader is invisible to other nations, but like a spy, can be exposed and brought to justice.

The leader is able to perform the following tasks (additional ones may appear later):
Purchase boats (from cities with at least one coastal building)
Escape by plane (from cities with an airport)
Sit back and relax (on tiles that contain a Cottage/Town)
Hide (on tiles that contain a Mine, Forest, or Jungle)

Relaxing leads the rogue leader closer to victory. The better the tile the cottage/town is located, the more Enjoyment points the rogue leader receives. Some things cause Enjoyment points to accrue faster:
Near a lake or ocean
Close to the equator
Wine accessible nearby

Hiding causes the leader to lose Relaxation points, but makes the leader more difficult to catch.

If a Rogue leader hits a certain Relaxation score, his/her team wins. If he is caught, that player is eliminated from the game.

OK i will be the first to d/l.

EDIT: OK first thing, you need to get rid of that stupid blue star flag in the America's and replace it with the R/W/B, thx.

This looks mad and really really great.

2nd to d/l !

Negative traits have always sounded like a good idea. Looks like a good start.

Hey, looks interesting. :D

looks good :goodjob:

Great work! I love the flavor and the implementation of your negative traits.

lol at Celebontology
but anyways, I will get to downloading when the regular version comes out.

The concept of negative traits may not be new but you really implemented it in an original way. Very creative! Can wait to see the full version (-and lay my hand on the sourcefiles):)

Very nice ideas :) :thumbsup:

Yeah an original mod !

Just an idea you may want to use. In FfH we assign genders to all the leaders and we have the ability to apply diplomacy modifiers based on the gender. Pretty simple code compared ot what you've done, I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems implmenting it yourself.

I thought it could be used as one of the effects of the Lecherous, a negative diplomacy modifier from all female leaders.

Wonderful "expansion"... now my mod has competition! :D

@Kael:

In FfH we assign genders to all the leaders and we have the ability to apply diplomacy modifiers based on the gender. Pretty simple code compared ot what you've done, I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems implmenting it yourself.

That sounds interesting. I may think of using that in my mod. How does it exactly work?

Wonderful "expansion"... now my mod has competition! :D

@Kael:

That sounds interesting. I may think of using that in my mod. How does it exactly work?

You are more than welcome to it. You can download the source for FfH here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=238077

Thanks very much! :D

isau , I've had no time to play so far. but when I loaded up a game it was hard to pick between negative things !! good though.

The best part for me is the new victory conditions. IMO this is the thing that is lacking and needed most in Civ 4. Different ways to win.

I guess i am not getting this MOD, i have now played 200 turns, and have NOT seen any difference in a normal game of BtS? HUH? Except way out of balance? i had a score of 500 and the leader had 1800??
Again the blue star got to go!!

Thanks for the feedback everyone. As I'm sure you guys who do modding know, it's invaluable after a few months sitting in the dark staring at pages of C++ code to get a response. Thank you for your time and encouragement.

OK first thing, you need to get rid of that stupid blue star flag in the America's and replace it with the R/W/B, thx.

I think this is a matter of taste. In any case, it's unlikely I will be altering any visual resources from the core game. It's not that I don't think some visuals could be improved. It's more an issue of:

Limited time
Excellent resources already being available to the community
Quality control -- if the mod crashes I need to know it's something I did and not a bad art file


Just an idea you may want to use. In FfH we assign genders to all the leaders and we have the ability to apply diplomacy modifiers based on the gender. Pretty simple code compared ot what you've done, I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems implmenting it yourself.

That sounds cool Kael. I haven't had a chance to look at your code yet (just getting Internet access back today after a 2 day hiatus). I may not end up using it, but I will definitely take a look.

isau , I've had no time to play so far. but when I loaded up a game it was hard to pick between negative things !! good though.

In the final version I hope to add an option that allows you to turn off negative traits. That way you can play with just the new victory types if you like.

I guess i am not getting this MOD, i have now played 200 turns, and have NOT seen any difference in a normal game of BtS? HUH? Except way out of balance? i had a score of 500 and the leader had 1800??
Again the blue star got to go!!

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game so far, but if you're seeing someone with a score that high that early, I'd say you're seeing some difference, bug or not. ;) I need more details: which civ are you playing, what game speed, who is the player with the high score, etc.

Remember that Saints and Sinners is still in a pre-alpha stage. This means I'm not even comfortable enough with it to call it an alpha release. The game is not finished; there is likely a very high incidence of bugs and gameplay imbalance. As the mod gets closer to final release, hopefully most of that will go away.

--isau

Update: Problems with player scores sometimes incrementing too fast confirmed. Not sure on the source of the bug yet, but will begin looking for a way to fix it. Thanks for reporting this issue. Please continue to point out any other problems you might run into.

Edit again: Not sure there's a problem now. I've run the game continuously and compared it to the regular BTS 3.13 and am not seeing a large score gap (altho there are elemtns about how score is getting calculated in the main game that leave me puzzled). Please send me screenshots/details showing score aberrations if you can capture them.

-isau

fantastic, original idea.
Keep working on it!

This sounds really great :) But how does it work with modular leaders and civs? And how hard is it to merge with other mods?

Great work :D

Will try, thanks.

I love this mod I think it is very well done.

Only one comment to make, Washington is pampered? That doesn't seem to fit him very well, since he was like Alexander the Great in that he lived with his men, ate what they ate, etc. Wouldn't he be more like an Idealist, or maybe fatalistic, (he complained to congress a lot saying how bad everything was). Sorry I have been researching Washington for my thesis and it doesn't seem to fit him. Just FYI. :cool:

I am playing the mod a totally loving the negative traits!

Update: Problems with player scores sometimes incrementing too fast confirmed. Not sure on the source of the bug yet, but will begin looking for a way to fix it. Thanks for reporting this issue. Please continue to point out any other problems you might run into.

In the Moonsong mod, there were huge score increases dependant on the number of plots capable of food production. Perhaps the trait that gives + :food: to the cities of an empire bugs things here?

Ive wanted negative traits for leaders for some time now. I will download it after finals.

Any news on an update?

I'd certainly like to see more work on this: it's a great concept.

Sad to see this project die :(

Hey guys,

Good news! Project is not dead. I've just been crazy with work lately.

I have made changes to some of the traits. Still plodding through the victories--Conspiracy is about 50% done. Screw the People has been more elusive and may be delayed till a later release.

Thanks for the encouragement and keep a lookout. I expect to upload another version of the mod soon.

Great to hear isau looking forward to your release keep it up !!!

New details on next release posted. See the first page of this thread in the "Next Release" section.

I've been looking forward to this...I still play the pre-alpha version...

Sounds good...Good work!

Glad to see that this mod is not dead :).

That espionage/secret society victory is simply awesome.

Couple of new screenshots from the testing floor:

Picture showing revisions to Protective and Brutal traits, and the new Maverick trait:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads//saint_sin_mao_6Et.jpg

Conspiracy victory conditions displayed on the Victory screen:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads//saint_sin_conspiracy_C5q.jpg

Spy attempting to embed a secret society:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads//saint_sin_embed_society_YsX.jpg

I'm not sure when the next release will be available. The test version has at least stopped crashing to the desk top and save games actually reload--yay! But there are some game play issues I need to hash out a little better. Namely, working out logic on what should happen when a rival siezes the city your secret society is based in. Little things like this sound trivial but require a lot of re-coding in some cases.

BTW, I've done some pre-lim work on the Screw the People Victory and it may find its way into the next release as well. No promises just yet but I'll see what I can do. If nothing else I may release with the Screw the People variabels already in play so save games between versions at least work.

-Isau

good to see that you're still working on this :)

This looks VERY good...I can't wait.

I think next version will be included in many modpacks :)

Very nice idea's I'll try this some time soon keep the good idea's comming I like it!!!
Have you or will you ever consider adding this modcomp (superspies) I think that it would be a nice addition
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259221

Okay, finally have the details on the Screw the People Victory. For those of you who don't feel like going back to the main post, here they are. Keep in mind that these are only partially coded and are subject to change:

Screw the People Victory

A new Commerce, called 'Stash', has been introduced. Spending on Stash is unlocked by Banking. The stash represents money stolen from your empire (sort of the 'Swiss Bank Account' of the Civ world.) Spending on Stash is like spending on Gold, except that only 5% of the money spent on stash actually makes it into your coffers. The rest is used to secure payoffs, etc, and is wasted, to the detriment of your empire.

Spending on stash is risky, and there is a chance of exposure. This chance is larger if your stealing is blatant. It's much safer to steal small amounts of Stash at a time than to try to rip off your people all at once. Rival empires can also use the U.N. to call you out on your stealing. You will want ample courthouses, jails, and banks to cover your tracks.

Once you have secured a sufficient Stash nest egg (the exact amount is not yet determined but will probably end up around 2500-5000 Stash), you have the option of abandoning your empire. When you do this it is sort of like creating a colony, except that ALL cities are lost. You (and any other players on your team) become rogue leaders on the run. Any Stash your empire had is converted to Gold.

An avatar representing your leader appears on the map. The leader is invisible to other nations, but like a spy, can be exposed and brought to justice.

The leader is able to perform the following tasks (additional ones may appear later):

Purchase boats (from cities with at least one coastal building)
Escape by plane (from cities with an airport)
Sit back and relax (on tiles that contain a Cottage/Town)
Hide (on tiles that contain a Mine, Forest, or Jungle)


Relaxing leads the rogue leader closer to victory. The better the tile the cottage/town is located, the more Enjoyment points the rogue leader receives. Some things cause Enjoyment points to accrue faster:

Near a lake or ocean
Close to the equator
Wine accessible nearby


Hiding causes the leader to lose Relaxation points, but makes the leader more difficult to catch.

If a Rogue leader hits a certain Relaxation score, his/her team wins. If he is caught, that player is eliminated from the game.

Huch, sound hard to code^^ good luck!!

Huch, sound hard to code^^ good luck!!

Actually have about 30% of it done. The biggest battle for me, generally, is finding time to work on it. It's a very time consuming, but also rewarding task. :)

If things go well, expect a TRUE alpha release soon. The Stash commerce is already in play, saves and loads correctly--that's a huge amount of dev and testing time that's out of the way. The main battle right now is the mechanics for abandoning the empire (0% done as of this writing) and the leader unit.

Thanks for the encouragement. Will keep you guys posted. :)

This sound great really very inventive !!! this mod is one of the most promising in terms of new and cool features!!! keep up the good work! looking forward to the alpha release!

Very nice idea's I'll try this some time soon keep the good idea's comming I like it!!!
Have you or will you ever consider adding this modcomp (superspies) I think that it would be a nice addition
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=259221

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. I may contact the author and see how if s/he is willing to loan it out and figure out how hard it would be to roll into SNS.

I like your mod & original idea very much, keep going and tell us more!:goodjob:

So, is the strategy to go to war and raze every city immediately prior to abandoning your empire, so that you've got lots of unoccupied territory to relax in?

Regarding the Conspiracy Victory: What about late start games that have little or no obsolete wonders?

>>So, is the strategy to go to war and raze every city immediately prior to abandoning your empire, so that you've got lots of unoccupied territory to relax in?<<

That could work, but a more likely situation would be that you've been hanging around in 4th or 5th place for a while with no real hope of catching up. So you give up and start putting points into your stash, preparing to flee. There is a lot of balance work that needs to go in still.

>>Regarding the Conspiracy Victory: What about late start games that have little or no obsolete wonders?<<

Hadn't thought about this specifically because I have never tried a late start game. Considering modifying the code so that you can start a Secret Society with a Corporation or a Religious Shrine. I need to think this through before deciding to allow it.

Hey guys,

Looks more and more like we are looking at the next release date being in mid or late March. I have the game in limited alpha test mode until then. Things are coming together, but there are still many loose ends to tie up.

The game has been being tested by some faithful friends. Based on their comments and my observations, I have made several changes to the game to rebalance it and flesh out some of the Vices.

- The Brutal trait no longer automatically razes cities below a certain population. Instead all cities captured by Brutal players acquire a Mass Grave building in the city (+1 :( -1 :hammers:). Another new building, the Atrocity Museum, can be built by Brutal players who wish to rewrite history with themselves as the victim. The Museum removes the penalties of the Mass Grave in the city, but only 3 Museums can be built per player.

- The Zealous trait (which was not in the pre-alpha release) causes the player to burn 1 population per turn in cities that contain a non-state religion (with 25% chance / turn of removing the rival religion from the city). While this is tested and working, it was not balanced because it practically eliminated the possibility of a Culture victory for these leaders. The trait has been updated so that picking the Pacifism civic puts a halt to burning. This now leaves the leader with several choices:

Orthodoxy (formerly Organized Religion) - Burn Citizens and Build Missionaries w/o Monasteries
Theocracy - Burn Citizens but No Further Non-State Religion Spreads
Pacifism - No Burning of Citizens but Have to Deal with Extra Unit Costs


- The Fatalistic trait was changed so that the civ experiences panic whenever it loses a city. The "anarchy" this trait used to cause is being changed to "panic" and when the event occurs, will give the player a few different options on how to react.

- The Protective trait has been updated further. Walls are no longer a half cost building because they now come free in any city you build. Units can now fortify for 5 extra turns (total 10) instead of 3. Also, when you move units within your borders you lose only 1 fortification per turn instead of the full fortication bonus, allowing you to charge up your defenses and "spring attack" enemies who enter your territory.

Great news! I look forward to hopefully incorporating this into a future version of CivFusion! (with your permission, of course).

Cheers,
ripple01

Very cool ideas. :goodjob:

Great Ideas! I anticipate your mod with great anticipation.

Wow, coming off of a 3 hour streak of accomplishing nothing other than breaking every pop up in the game. Lovely... ;)

However, I did manage to make the following successful changes to gameplay:

I wasn't happy with the minimum commerce rate that Paranoid and Pampered enforced. Setting the min value to 10% was pretty much ignorable and forcing 20% on the player was too punishing in the early game. I have now changed the code so that the rate depends on the era. The minimum rates are now as follows:

Ancient Era - 0%
Classical Era - 10%
Rennaissance Era - 20%


Also another change for Fatalistic civs: they now panic if they are nuked. I may have to introduce some controls on this to prevent the player from getting stuck in perpetual anarchy, but it is tested and working for now.

The Maverick trait lost all research penalties. Research is just too important in this game for any penalties to it to balance correctly. For now, the penalty is -25% defense in all cities. This may change or go away entirely depending on how it tests.

In other news, can't remember if I told you guys that founding a Secret Society with Corporations and Shrines is definitely in. This opens the door for three types of Secret Societies: Ancestral (obsolete wonder), Divine (shrine), and Corporate (corporate HQ). I am still formulating the rules around Divine and Corporate societies, but for now they work exactly like Ancestral ones. I may change this if there is time. The main change that is likely is that Divine societies will be able to embed in religious buildings (even rival religions) and that founding the society removes all monetary benefits the corporation/religion normally provides (tho you still get happiness, production, and whatever else).

It is also unfortunately starting to look like I may pull Screw the People Victory out of the March release after all. Just a time thing. I want to make sure as much about the game is stable as possible before the release, and while a good bit of Screw is in place, it may not be realistic to have it all by the end of the month. Keep your fingers crossed. :)

By the way, if anyone has a background in modding and would like to help me out, one of the hugely annoying things I'm stumbling against is making custom characters in a font pack show up.

I've got all my corporations set up perfectly, but I have a character for each type of secret society. I just can't for the life of me get them to display in the city status bar. What I've been doing is taking the ID of the Electricity icon and adding 6 to it to try to make them show up, but they come in blank. I've tested and can get any other character to show up. For now I am just using the Espionage icon, but since I have the secret society characters made I'd like to use them. Frustrating!

Also, if anyone would like to help me out by figuring out what turns 1 AD, 1000 AD and 2000 AD fall on each game speed (particularly Epic and Marathon) that would be a HUGE help.

Many, many thanks for your support and praise. :)

--isau

Some Q&As that have arisen from testers you might find interesting:

Q: What happens if the city I found a Secret Society in is captured?
A: Right now, nothing. Your rivals never know for sure that you have a secret society so conquests have no effect. If the city is razed, your society remains, even if the original building is but a distant memory.

Q: Can I get around the Maverick vice's requirement that I use the leader's favorite civic by avoiding the tech that unlocks it?
A: Nope. For Maverick leaders the trait becomes unlocked once anyone you're in contact with can access it. This means if your rival is Maverick and you suspect s/he is trying to avoid the favorite trait, you can research the tech yourself and force it on them.

Q: How does the changed Expansive trait calculate how much extra food you get?
A: The extra food is equal to 3 / # of expected cities for the World Size. For example, a Huge map expects the player to have about 6 cities, so you get about 3 food for every 6 cities (i.e. 1/2 food per city you own).

Q: How does the Extravagant vice work?
A: Extravagant increases the minimum number of resources you need to get a happiness bonus. For example, to get happiness from gold you need 2 sources of gold, not 1 like every other civ. This refers only to the base happiness for the resource, not any bonuses you would get from having Markets, etc (tho that is the way it was originally written).

Q: How can a Hawkish leader tell that s/he needs to take aggressive action?
A: In the city panel, roll over the happiness meter. If you see citizens stating "Our leader has no balls!" it's time to declare war or make a demand against a rival.

Q: Can Zealous leaders pick Free Religion?
A: No.

Q: What does the Headstrong vice actually do?
A: Headstrong causes your units to be vulnerable to more damage than normal from (mostly) siege units and bomber planes. These units have a cutoff above which they can do no more damage. Headstrong raises that cap by 10%, so a unit that can normally only do 75% damage to you can do 85%.

Q: What are the "false accusations" referred to by the Paranoid vice?
A: A false accusation can only occur when a rival hits you with a spy mission and you fail to catch them. Paranoid leaders have a 10% chance to blame one of their own spies (even if it's far away in another land) and dismiss that unit.

Accidentally double-posted. See post below.

Well I'm totally covered in blood after a vicious catfight with the code that lasted most of the last two weeks. The good news is I now have a probable release date of the bext version sometime next week.

Things that will be in the release:
- The tweaked Vice list, which now consists of:
- Brutal
- Honorable (formerly Idealistic)
- Vain (formerly Narcissistic)
- Hawkish
- Worldly (formerly Extravagant)
- Stubborn (formerly Headstrong)
- Maverick
- Zealous
- Gluttonous
- Fatalistic
- Lewd (formerly Lecherous)

- The revised (in some cases completely rewritten) Traits
- Protective
- Imperialistic
- Aggressive
- Creative

- The full Conspiracy victory

- Alpha test of minor Screw the People victory components (full victory will likely come out in about 2 months)

- 5 New Civics
- Plutocracy (Government)
- Nanny State (Legal)
- Unionization (Labor)
- Usury (Economy)
- Sanctimony (Religion)

- Revised spying
- Spies gain exp when succeed at mission, lose xp when caught (don't always die)
- 4 new missions for embedding a secret society into a city

- International Propoganda
- New ability to "denounce" a civic, using your voting influence outside of the UN to create diplomatic penalties for rivals using that civic

- Revised Tech Tree

- Revised Corporation List (now with appropriate icons and screen fixes)


Things that won't be in the release:

- Full Screw the People Victory, though you will many vestiges of it for you to try out (and technically, you can even win the victory if you enter the world builder and slap a Leader on the map)

- Some things related to bonuses that will need to wait till the next release


Of course, I can't leave without giving you a few screenshots:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/saintsin_newcivics_3po.jpg

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads/saintsin_vicky_402.jpg

isau,

hi!

im really happy that you still develop this mod, i really like it, its very original and interesting,

i have one requast to you,

i (and im sure others) will be very greatfull if you will include the sdk source code in you release, and hopefully, with tags of the changes,
so i can merge this great work into my overlord2 mod,

your work gives another sparkle to the gameplay,
hope youll share the sdk :)

I know, your rapidly approaching your next release date... I was just wondering though, If you could find a way to combine the 2 victory conditions and maybe create...
an evil genius

you know, you have secret societies everywhere that skim cash, science, culture and resources. You can make it that once you run, you have to go to a volcanic island and establish a secret layer, heck, I don't know. I:evil:t's just a thought. Make the goal to construct some crazy thing like the "moon laser" that will fry earth, and take the world hostage, and if you last x number of turns after you take it hostage, they capitulate, and the world is yours! (insert evil laughter here) :evil:

keldath - Yes, the SDK will be made public about a week after I release the core code. The relevants areas are labeled. If I have time I will also go through the code and add bookmarks in the sln so people using Visual Studio will be able to quickly find everything. Unfortunantely, I am not a professional programmer, so you will find some laughable code, but hopefully it will be useful. :)

ou know, you have secret societies everywhere that skim cash, science, culture and resources. You can make it that once you run, you have to go to a volcanic island and establish a secret layer, heck, I don't know. It's just a thought. Make the goal to construct some crazy thing like the "moon laser" that will fry earth, and take the world hostage, and if you last x number of turns after you take it hostage, they capitulate, and the world is yours! (insert evil laughter here)

Great ideas! I wouldn't rule this out completely. Part of the reason Screw the People isn't coming out with this release is that I am rethinking how to approach it. I may consider allowing leaders-on-the-run to have dastardly plans like this. As it turns out, I don't yet have a Conspiracy mission for the Stash commerce, so a combined Conspiracy / Screw victory is a possibility.

Also, as far as evil laboratories go, keep your eye on Pharmatech Labs. Once Corporations get the full set of changes I have in store for them, expect something about that corporation to... mutate.

great isau,

i cant wait !!!

This is an innovative work. I am particularly interested in how you've related the traits to so many different aspects of the game. That portion alone probably deserves its own separate modcomp. :goodjob: Will you be releasing the source code with this? :drool:

Also kind of funny that you made Lincoln idealistic, since he can't raze cities... ever hear of Sherman's March? ;) :lol:

>>Will you be releasing the source code with this?<<

Yes, about a week after the release. One of the things I think you will like is that the XML options available for traits have expanded a lot. I've also modded the way the trait info displays in the game so you can override the default trait descriptions, in case you want to add Python-based traits and explain what they do to the player.

>>Also kind of funny that you made Lincoln idealistic, since he can't raze cities... ever hear of Sherman's March?<<

I considered this, but decided that of the list of traits, Honorable/Idealistic was still the best for old Linc. Atlanta will be lucky this time. :)

well guys, you got me to read in wikipedia on shermans march :)

now i can say civ4 has enriched my knowldge :)

Suggest renaming "Maverick" to "Idealist" - many if not all of the civic diehards are so because they seriously believe in the virtues of said civic.

Also, strongly suggest moving Maverick/Idealist (Nationhood) from von Bismarck to Lincoln - his actions and policies leading up to the War Between the States pretty well prove that he was well wide of "Honourable", being mostly concerned with preserving his own power-base.

The screw the people victory seems very interesting - can't wait to try it

I owe you guys a huge apology. I had hoped to release the next version 2 weeks ago, but called off on business. I've also discovered some problems in the code that sometimes lead to infinite recursion. There is also a bug that currently allows you to place a secret society in the same city over and over and thereby win the game. Oops!

I do have some good news though. I've been looking at some of the excellent artwork other modders have made and incorporating some of them as new leaderheads in saints and sinners. So you can expect to see of these popular leader heads in the next release:

Dido of Carthage (artwork by C. Roland and Refar) - Libertine, Honorable
Hirohito of Japan (artwork by Bernie14) - Narcissistic, Maverick (Apotheosis)
Kim Jong-il of Korea (artwork by Bernie14) - Narcissistic, Paranoid
Harald of the Vikings (artwork by C. Roland) - Fatalistic, Stubborn
Mahmoud of Persia (artwork by Bernie14) - Zealous, Stubborn

Awesome! Will there be more leaders to come following the next release?

>>Awesome! Will there be more leaders to come following the next release?<<

I haven't ruled out the possibility. It just depends on what the community comes up with. :) There are some very talented 3-D modders out there.

I played a full game of Saints and Sinners last night and got stomped by, of all people, Kim Jong-il. No crashes to desk top, infinite loops, or otherwise. Still some buggy issues though that need to be resolved.

Cool, can't wait.

Alpha version is posted. Have fun and let me know what breaks. I am going to post a better description of everything later but I am exhausted. I will also need to post a known bug list (unfortunately not bug-free this time).

FYI parts of Screw the People are in the game to see if they "survive" the alpha test. It is currently NOT possible to win a Screw victory. Expect that part to come together much tighter once this version gets debugged.

FYI there are a couple of last minute surprises I through in I didn't tell y'all about. 3 new virtues (positive leader traits). I'll post on them later but have fun checking them out.

-isau

I've just read the full list of features you introduce here... WOW!
I thought it's just a mod which implements fun traits (it's a nice idea to give bad traits along with good, I don't think there were perfect leaders ever).
But this is a TOTAL spying overhaul! Now spying makes sence! At last it becomes a living thing, not just a "side" feature.
Tell me please, are you able to release this features as different modcomps please? I'd like to integrate the secret societies and screw the people to other big modpacks I like to play (to have revolutions + ability to screw your own empire... Civilization becomes a new perfect game!). Also I don't think I will love EVERY game with bad traits. I think I will play with it often enough, but sometimes I'll definitely want to play just with new features without new traits (with old ones).


^_^ ^_^ ^_^ You're a genius.

Thank you for your work!

Downloaded and installed the game, but it crashes every time I try to load it. It makes it to the point where music plays and the main menu should appear, but then a message pops up saying Civ4 needs to close.

I run it fine.

>>Downloaded and installed the game, but it crashes every time I try to load it. It makes it to the point where music plays and the main menu should appear, but then a message pops up saying Civ4 needs to close.<<

Ouch, sorry about that. Are you running the game out of your Beyond the Sword folder? I've never seen the game crash out of the gate like that. It may be connected to the new leaderheads or another graphical problem. My testing is limited to the computers I have at my disposal. I can send you some instructions on how to get a dump file if it keeps crashing. The dump file may tell me what's causing the problem.

>>I've just read the full list of features you introduce here... WOW!
I thought it's just a mod which implements fun traits (it's a nice idea to give bad traits along with good, I don't think there were perfect leaders ever).
But this is a TOTAL spying overhaul! Now spying makes sence! At last it becomes a living thing, not just a "side" feature.
Tell me please, are you able to release this features as different modcomps please? I'd like to integrate the secret societies and screw the people to other big modpacks I like to play (to have revolutions + ability to screw your own empire... Civilization becomes a new perfect game!). Also I don't think I will love EVERY game with bad traits. I think I will play with it often enough, but sometimes I'll definitely want to play just with new features without new traits (with old ones).<<

I'm glad you like the mod so far. :) I wouldn't call it a total spying overhaul, but there are definitely some new features added.

Unfortunately almost all of the changes in Saints and Sinners are from the SDK, so it's not possible to partition them. What is very possible though is to modify the XML to eliminate the negative leader traits (and in a lot of cases even reverse them so that they can do good things instead of bad).

There is also a No Negative Traits option available to custom games which I've just discovered only half works. I will be fixing this for the next iteration (which will contain only bug fixes, no new features). I expect to have that done over the next 2 weeks as bug reports roll in, unless something turns out to be way more broken than I'm aware of.

Thanks again for your encouragement.

-isau

>>Downloaded and installed the game, but it crashes every time I try to load it. It makes it to the point where music plays and the main menu should appear, but then a message pops up saying Civ4 needs to close.<<

Ouch, sorry about that. Are you running the game out of your Beyond the Sword folder? I've never seen the game crash out of the gate like that. It may be connected to the new leaderheads or another graphical problem. My testing is limited to the computers I have at my disposal. I can send you some instructions on how to get a dump file if it keeps crashing. The dump file may tell me what's causing the problem.

Here's the normal dump file. I had to compress it, as .dmp files are not uploadable. Let me know if you need the full dump instead.

Here's the normal dump file. I had to compress it, as .dmp files are not uploadable. Let me know if you need the full dump instead.

Just checked out the dump file and unfortunately wasn't able to see where the crash was. If you don't mind sending a full dump it may help me pinpoint the problem. I am looking at graphics settings in the meantime to see if I can make my game crash.

I will stay satisfied just with the "no negative traits" option.
For now it's hard for me to keep the monarch-emperor playing difficulty with these penalties. And A.I. as Cyrus and Zulu seems to be pretty well while the carthagen and germany in my game (maybe because of Zulu war) were very unsuccessful.
I wanted to ask about AI to use new tech tree and evade trait penalties but it seems it works pretty fine.

Just checked out the dump file and unfortunately wasn't able to see where the crash was. If you don't mind sending a full dump it may help me pinpoint the problem. I am looking at graphics settings in the meantime to see if I can make my game crash.

Just did the full dump, and don't think I'll be able to send it. The file size is 642 Mb.

Zifnab, mind taking a screenshot of your graphics options? Also, just to verify, are you running Beyond the Sword v3.13 on a PC? Sorry it's been such a hassle!

Zifnab, mind taking a screenshot of your graphics options? Also, just to verify, are you running Beyond the Sword v3.13 on a PC? Sorry it's been such a hassle!

Here is the screenshot, and yes I am. I have not had this problem with any other mod either. Well, I did once or twice, but it turned out I just needed to clear my cache. Which is why I disabled caching of the files.

Also, I don't know what I am doing with the debugging, but I tried loading the dump file, and got this:

This dump file has an exception of interest stored in it.
The stored exception information can be accessed via .ecxr.
(6b4.b64): Access violation - code c0000005 (first/second chance not available)
eax=21580000 ebx=00172fc0 ecx=00000007 edx=7c90eb94 esi=00172f98 edi=00172ff0
eip=7c90eb94 esp=0012e4d0 ebp=0012e4e0 iopl=0 nv up ei pl zr na pe nc
cs=001b ss=0023 ds=0023 es=0023 fs=003b gs=0000 efl=00000246
ntdll!KiFastSystemCallRet:
7c90eb94 c3 ret
0:000> .ecxr
eax=00000000 ebx=1b78eb70 ecx=00000000 edx=0012f82a esi=0012fa30 edi=0012fa9c
eip=01f7e6d0 esp=0012fa1c ebp=00c29648 iopl=0 nv up ei pl nz na pe nc
cs=001b ss=0023 ds=0023 es=0023 fs=003b gs=0000 efl=00010206
*** WARNING: Unable to verify checksum for CvGameCoreDLL.dll
*** ERROR: Symbol file could not be found. Defaulted to export symbols for CvGameCoreDLL.dll -
CvGameCoreDLL!CvThroneRoomCamera::getFileName:
01f7e6d0 83b98c00000010 cmp dword ptr [ecx+8Ch],10h ds:0023:0000008c=????????
*** ERROR: Symbol file could not be found. Defaulted to export symbols for Civ4BeyondSword.exe -
0:000> .ecxr
eax=00000000 ebx=1b78eb70 ecx=00000000 edx=0012f82a esi=0012fa30 edi=0012fa9c
eip=01f7e6d0 esp=0012fa1c ebp=00c29648 iopl=0 nv up ei pl nz na pe nc
cs=001b ss=0023 ds=0023 es=0023 fs=003b gs=0000 efl=00010206
CvGameCoreDLL!CvThroneRoomCamera::getFileName:
01f7e6d0 83b98c00000010 cmp dword ptr [ecx+8Ch],10h ds:0023:0000008c=????????

Tried it with those settings and still can't seem to crash it. If you can wait a day or two I can try a version that removes the custom intro screen and music and see if that will let you through the gate.

BTW, has anyone managed to pull off a Conspiracy Victory yet? I've gotten close but never actually won one. (Which isn't surprising, because even on warlord difficulty I lose a lot. :) Some of us have talents in different places...)

I figured out the crash. I have an ancient video card that does not support shaders, and there was an error in the main menu art file dealing with shaders.

More specifically in CIV4MainMenus.xml in the XML/Art directory,
<SceneNoShader>NONE</SceneNoShader>
should be
<SceneNoShader>MAINMENU_SCENE</SceneNoShader>

additionaly, two of the leaders have messed up art, Mahmoud and Kim

I had a problem with noshader files with leaderheads with one other mod in the past, but it had an assets/art/leaderheads folder which contained the added leaderheads, so I was able to track down a few typos and fix the problem. I'm not sure what directory this mod is referencing for its leaderhead files, but let me know, and I can see if there are any entry typos

Great mod, isau, any chance of you including the modified source with future versions?

Cheers,
ripple01

>>I figured out the crash. I have an ancient video card that does not support shaders, and there was an error in the main menu art file dealing with shaders.<<

YOU ROCK! Thanks for the info Zifnab. I am very new to working with Civ IV graphics. Those leaderheads have only been part of the mod for the past week or so. Thanks so much for helping me debug this.

The leaderheads are all part of a packed file. There's two ways you can get to them. You can download the Civ IV packing utility or you can wait till I do my next release, which is likely to be tonight (I spent hours today fixing things and think I have patched about 75% of the bugs and missing text areas.)

>>Great mod, isau, any chance of you including the modified source with future versions?<<

Definitely! I need to take one more pass through the code before I release it but I hope to help the community by releasing it shortly. You will no doubt catch many errors I made (since like everyone else I do this in my spare time.) Thanks so much for your support, it means a lot after months of work. :)

Zifnab, I have made these changes, which I think may fix the issue:

For Mahmoud:
art/LeaderHeads/Mahmoud/julius_caesar_noshader.nif

(There was an extra f in there in the word .nif)


For Kim:
I don't see an included version of this guy that's non-shader, so I reused Hirohito out of convenience. Not sure what else to do. May end up having to have a version of this pack that's non-shader.

Hito's path is art/LeaderHeads/Hirohito/julius_caesar_noshader.nif.

First patch is out as of now. You can download from the first page of this thread. Hopefully this will fix any issues for folks with don't have shading features. Just in case, this time the art files are not packaged, so you can take a look at them if you want.

Looks good, Isau. Well done.

The download server at filesave is down...Would you consider uploading at another site? Thanks!

Is there a place to check your progress towards a quest? I don't remember how many buildings I need to build before I pass....

It's in the message log; there should be a "Quests" tab.

I played a quick game last night...I was impressed.

The only bug I saw was that Harald Fairhair did not have any diplomatic text.

For Kim:
I don't see an included version of this guy that's non-shader, so I reused Hirohito out of convenience. Not sure what else to do. May end up having to have a version of this pack that's non-shader.

Hito's path is art/LeaderHeads/Hirohito/julius_caesar_noshader.nif.I recommend that you simply change <NIF>art/LeaderHeads/Hirohito/julius_caesar_noshader.nif</NIF>
to: <NIF/>
This should force the game to use the nonshader art whatever.

I recommend that you simply change <NIF>art/LeaderHeads/Hirohito/julius_caesar_noshader.nif</NIF>
to: <NIF/>
This should force the game to use the nonshader art whatever.

Thanks NikNaks. Do you know if this will cause the game to crash for people who can't use shaders?

I doubt it'll be perfect for them, but it's gotta be better than using Hirohito instead ;).

Also, I thought that the LH didn't have shaders. IIRC, Bernie made it before we'd advanced that far.

Update from the testing floor: Just got a confirmation that Caligula (designed by Ekhmek) will be added in the next patch. He's been tested and is up and running.

Here's a sneak peek:

http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/4/4/25/f_caligulam_d4a8fc4.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/4/25/f_caligulam_d4a8fc4.png&srv=img27)

Also some other major issues should be closed off. Hope to get the next version out in the next 8-10 days. Thank you all again for your help and support!

How much SDK/Python coding is there to the Conspiracy Victory?

I would love to include something similar in my mod (as I already added a Religious and Mercantile victory and Espionage is currently the only commerce that can't 'win' so to speak), and I think how you did it was very clever.

I already have spies with experience and an expanded espionage system in my mod. I'm all right doing python, but my SDK never comes out right.

How much SDK/Python coding is there to the Conspiracy Victory?

I would love to include something similar in my mod (as I already added a Religious and Mercantile victory and Espionage is currently the only commerce that can't 'win' so to speak), and I think how you did it was very clever.

I already have spies with experience and an expanded espionage system in my mod. I'm all right doing python, but my SDK never comes out right.

Thanks for your interest! Almost all of the logic for the Conspiracy victory is in the SDK. The only pieces of the Victory that come from Python is output text for the Victory screen. Everything else is handled inside the .dll that comes with Saints and Sinners.

Since it sounds like your mods are mostly based on Python, what you may be able to do is simply use Saints and Sinners as the base for your mod. This will require some minor reconfiguring on your part because some of the XML files used by Saints and Sinners have changed. Luckily, I anticipated that some people would want to build off the S&S base mod, so I have not made any changes to the XML schema for things that people most commonly add to mods: Promotions and Units. Also, there is only one extra tag in there for leaders (which is probably being removed) and one for buildings (which defines the relationship to a Trait).

As long as you credit me and disclose in the credits section that your mod uses Saints and Sinners as its base, you are welcome to experiment with this. Let me know if you have implementation questions. I'm excited to hear that you're interested in S&S!

A couple of updates:

- In the next patch the AI will have learned how to blame civics. In the testing instance Boudica first let me know she wasn't a fan of my policies, then rudely invaded not long after. I may need to tweak the values around some, but some version of this will be in.

-Next patch also includes more changes to Civics. Right now these changes are:

Plutocracy is removed from the game, replaced with Cabalism. Cabalism provides +25% espionage in all cities and grants spies, missionaries and recon units 1 extra move point and +1 visibility
Nationhood no longer provides espionage points. It grants naval units the sentry and morale promotions
Serfdom grants +50% defense in all cities
Usury has been replaced with Plundering. It grants +100% gold from pillaging and grants all siege units Barrage I


Also I think I finally tracked down and fixed any remaining bugs preventing the No Negative Traits option from working reliably.

Release date of the patch is likely to be at the end of next weekend or the weekend after.

I appear to have a problem.
Everytime, I load the mod, all letters in the menues and the game disappear.
I am playing BTS V.3.13 german

Hope you can help me

My saved game keeps crashing at 1520 BC. Any idea how to fix it? Thanks.

I started a new game and found a bug. I captured a city, and when it put in the mass grave, it gave the city a bonus of like $50,000 for some reason which is now there every turn. I have attached the save file.

I have another broken crash file. I turned off the mass grave option in the buildings file and was playing fine. Now awhile later I have a crash.

Yet another crash i cant seem to fix

Your screen name seems quite apt, Gremlins, coz your finding them all over the place :)

(A subscription post, so I can DL this when I get the chance. Coz it looks freaking awesome :D)

Seems promising isau! Please keep up the good work.

my computer can't open the mod why is that?

Welcome to Civfanatics, amishdemon. Where specifically does it go wrong, and do you get an error message come up?

I think his problem may be due to the fact that this mod has not been updated to 3.17 yet.

isau hasn't been on since May 10th. I really hope this mod is still being worked on, I was really looking forward to it...

Cheers,
ripple01

I think his problem may be due to the fact that this mod has not been updated to 3.17 yet.

i finally opened it but now it gets to some random point and crashes. so, you maybe right

Strange, I DLed the mod then started it up to see if it worked, and it worked fine.

Now everytime I try to play it it crashes right as I start up a game. Has anyone else experienced this, or is there something wrong with my settings.

I am running 3.17 though, so that may be the issue.

Any insight?

This mod has a custom DLL, so it needs 3.13. There is no source code and the creator is MIA, so this mod is probably dead.

Well, it seems to be popular, maybe someone can "hijack" it and fix it up, if the creator doesn't mind that is.:mischief:

It would need to be rewritten most likely, as the DLL source code isn't included.

well that sucks

Believe it or not I am actually still around. I just recently came off of a nearly 3 week episode with no power, and before that had been traveling around with little access to the Saints and Sinners dev tools.

Unfortunately what others have said is correct--SNS no longer functions because of patch 3.17. I have talked to some folks about releasing the SDK code and will post here when that happens. I will most likely not be continuing with Saints and Sinners in the future (the last time a patch dropped on me it took ~40 hours to upgrade everything), but I may be around to answer questions about the code.

Thanks for your interest in the mod, and sorry for the bad news!

-isau

Sorry to hear you are leaving. I really think this mod is an interesting idea for presenting more balanced leaders with faults that you can exploit at times... I really like the idea of certain leaders having faults that you can use and have to overcome yourself as well... Washington if he is in could have an idealistic fault. Less likely to realise manipulation in negotiations by a certain percentage... Lots of potential in this mod idea, especially if someone combined it with something like Wolfshanze Mod with all those additional flavour units in it...