We all enjoy Civ at the difficulty level we set it at, otherwise we would not be playing the game at all, but we also aspire to play it at a higher difficulty level, or to just be better at playing the game, which is why we read this or other forums.

These types of forums are obviously rich in information for civ fans to help improve their game, but Civ is the most complex game ever produced, and it plays very differently, depending on what difficulty level you set it at.

I am sure that most of us have moved from one difficulty level to another, and been surprised at how quickly the game will beat us, if we use the same tactics and strategy that would have given us a win at a lower difficulty level.

As such we all have to experiment, learn, adapt and evolve our gameplay each time we move up the difficulty ladder. In other words, the tactics and strategies that work at the lower difficulty levels, just don't work at higher difficulty levels.

Reading the threads on this and other forums can therefore be a bit frustrating, because the players at the lower level don't need to know the stuff that players use at the higher levels, and like I said, most of what works at the lower levels just does not work at the higher levels.

I am not suggesting a division of the forum for any any elitist snobbish reason, but simply to make it easier for people to find information / tactics / strategies that are appropriate to the level they are playing at.

In an ideal world a billion people would be playing civ, and we could separate a forum into each difficulty level. Given that it's not an ideal world, how about just dividing the forum into two parts.

One section could be devoted to the casual player, who is new to civ, or just doesn't have time to play it much, and the other to the hard core sad cases who play far to much of it.

Needless to say, players will probably read both sections if something catches their eye, but they will only contribute / post in the section that is appropriate to them. I am not sure what the cut off point would be best, but I assume it's somewhere around Monarch.

Regards - Mr P

I support the general idea. Civ4 is by far more complex than any previous incarnation. The interface and tutorial provides a tremendous amount of useful information, but the complexities need to be addressed at the intermediate levels.

The forums are a treasure trove of information, but the sheer scope is overwhelming for us noobies!

k doen

Casual: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=259
Advanced: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=155

I think the divisions that exist already are sufficient.

Needless to say, players will probably read both sections if something catches their eye, but they will only contribute / post in the section that is appropriate to them. I am not sure what the cut off point would be best, but I assume it's somewhere around Monarch.

IMO that's a terrible idea. if a forum is "exclusively" to some extent for players below monarch, you'd be far less likely to get advice from the folks that play above that level but don't feel their advice is wanted. but those are the people with the most knowledge of the game, and chances are they got there starting below monarch too, they weren't born experts. it is true that some strategies that work at deity aren't worth a bean on settler, but the emperor+ players can and do post advice for the prince- players. mileages vary of course. if advice is above my level then i skim but mostly ignore it, and i'm not bored by the very simple questions of brand new players.

i learned a lot from CFC when i was new to civ. if the only people reading and posting were starting out as basic as me, that would not be the case. now that i'm more experienced (but still always and forever a permanoob), i try to point out where some advice is much more applicable to higher levels than lower ones, simply because i play a variety of levels and most folks stick to one. in a recent thread about how much of a priority to put on currency for example, the higher players mentioned the advantage of selling techs for cash. that's a benefit on all levels, but it's not going to make you nearly as rich on noble as it does on emperor, simply because the AI doesn't have as much money. on deity i can get enough cash to outright buy most of the UN in OCC ... settler i'm not likely to get 1000g from other civs before i win diplo victory. yes i've played both variants in the last few months :lol:. so anyway, i at least try to point out those cases of "this is more true at X level" so the lower folks aren't misled, and i know i'm not the only one.

:agree:

(what KMad said).

I post on another forum that makes too many different forums to specialize discussion too much, and it ends up making conversation in general die a lot because people don't see as many topics, since they end up only usually checking a few forums before they leave.

I think that that is a bad idea. A lot of issues are universal across playing level. I think that there should be things (like the HoF) that cater to the more advanced players and some things that cater to the more casual, but they most definitely should not be exclusive.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that people would be prevented from posting in in either section, I just assumed that advanced players would continue to give ideas / advice where appropriate to players in the casual section, and therefore be posting in both sections, but that casual players would be naturally reluctant to post in the advanced section, unless they had something relevant to say.

That said, I agree that it is divisive step, but I like others have to do a lot of speed reading to work out what I want to skip and what I want to read at the moment.

Perhaps a half way house might work, whereby to improve the current forum system players declare what difficulty level they play in their account profile, and that then appears under their name every time they make a post.

I am not saying casual players don't have interesting stuff to say and advice of their own to give, but you could quickly tell the relevance of a thread by skimming though the names who have posted on it. Example, let's say there were 20 posts on a particular thread, and 19 of them were from Noble players and one was from a Deity player. I am not saying that the advice of the Deity player would be better than that of the Noble players, but everyone would instantly be able to see what level of difficulty that overall thread is dealing with. Likewise another thread might have 20 posts by Immortal / Deity players, and only 2 from Noble / Monarch players.

It might also help beginners, as they could judge the weight of the advice that currently appears in the "Beginners Guide Thread" stuck to the top of the forum. It currently has 600 posts and the quality of the advice varies, and declaring your difficulty level would allow beginners to give different weight to the ideas / advice posted.

Regards - Mr P (Immortal = just moved up and getting my ass kicked at the moment - LOL)

These types of forums are obviously rich in information for civ fans to help improve their game, but Civ is the most complex game ever produced, and it plays very differently, depending on what difficulty level you set it at.


Firstly, Civ isnt the most complex game ever.

Secondly, its much better to have a mix. I am pretty casual in my gaming, but I am interested in finding new mods etc for CIV and I find alot of good advice from the more extreme civ fans, advice I probably wouldn'T have worked out on my own, because I just play the game casually.

The main reason to have a split is if there are so many posts that items keep falling off the front page within a few hours. If that happens then some questions never get answered and some discussions never get going. But as far as I am aware that is not happening here.

If they did do a split I think a better one would be by type of question rather than expert/beginner. We already have that as there is a strategy section and a Multiplayer section etc. But if a particular board becomes too popular that so many topics fail to stay on the front page for more than a few hours then a split might not be a bad idea.

Yes it is.

I have been playing PC games for 15 years and each of the various civs has been miles ahead of other games made in a similar era.

Name one game that's more complex.


Regards - Mr P

IMO that's a terrible idea. if a forum is "exclusively" to some extent for players below monarch, you'd be far less likely to get advice from the folks that play above that level but don't feel their advice is wanted. but those are the people with the most knowledge of the game, and chances are they got there starting below monarch too, they weren't born experts. it is true that some strategies that work at deity aren't worth a bean on settler, but the emperor+ players can and do post advice for the prince- players. mileages vary of course. if advice is above my level then i skim but mostly ignore it, and i'm not bored by the very simple questions of brand new players.

:agree: What she said!

Absolutely not. I thank god for the fact that some die-hardcore Civvies post here, because I learn from their suggestions and experience. And I'm always happy to see n00bs here because it means there's still enough growing interest in this game to keep the franchise alive. I like to help out casual players with their game, and answer their questions, and I like it when advanced players show me the same courtesy.

This is a great forum. Don't ruin it by trying to pit 13375 vs n0065.

Name one game that's more complex.


Master of Orion 3 was more complex, but not in a fun way.
Talk about the biggest letdown of my gaming life.

Don't ruin it by trying to pit 13375 vs n0065.

So - for the more "uneducated" of us here (at least when it comes to online slang) can you translate 13375 and n0065? I am assuming that n0065 is noob...

:confused:

Yes it is.

I have been playing PC games for 15 years and each of the various civs has been miles ahead of other games made in a similar era.

Name one game that's more complex.


Regards - Mr P

Hearts of Iron 2: Doomsday, Superpower 2, Europa Universalis III, Close Combat 1 - 5, Victoria and even Master of Orion 2 are all more complex.

Don't get me wrong I love Civ, its a fun game but it is not the most complex game ever. But it is one of the most fun games ever, which counts for alot more.

Civ is more of a casual strategy game, its got some complexity there, but its more balanced towards the casual gamer. Its a formula that works well. But Id really like to see alot more complexity added to Civ for u more hardcore strategists.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that people would be prevented from posting in in either section, I just assumed that advanced players would continue to give ideas / advice where appropriate to players in the casual section, and therefore be posting in both sections, but that casual players would be naturally reluctant to post in the advanced section, unless they had something relevant to say.

That said, I agree that it is divisive step, but I like others have to do a lot of speed reading to work out what I want to skip and what I want to read at the moment.

Perhaps a half way house might work, whereby to improve the current forum system players declare what difficulty level they play in their account profile, and that then appears under their name every time they make a post.

I am not saying casual players don't have interesting stuff to say and advice of their own to give, but you could quickly tell the relevance of a thread by skimming though the names who have posted on it. Example, let's say there were 20 posts on a particular thread, and 19 of them were from Noble players and one was from a Deity player. I am not saying that the advice of the Deity player would be better than that of the Noble players, but everyone would instantly be able to see what level of difficulty that overall thread is dealing with. Likewise another thread might have 20 posts by Immortal / Deity players, and only 2 from Noble / Monarch players.

It might also help beginners, as they could judge the weight of the advice that currently appears in the "Beginners Guide Thread" stuck to the top of the forum. It currently has 600 posts and the quality of the advice varies, and declaring your difficulty level would allow beginners to give different weight to the ideas / advice posted.

Regards - Mr P (Immortal = just moved up and getting my ass kicked at the moment - LOL)

You can tell what level many forum members play at, as it is in their profile. For example, look in the profile of 'Osama Bin Davis' and you can see what levels he plays Civ IV, Civ III and so on at. (Don't look in mine 'cos I don't play Civ much, if at all. :p)

I voted "No" because dividing the forums too much divides the community too much and discourages lively discussion.

I voted "no" because (a) I like reading about what people are doing at higher levels than I'm playing on now because I intend to play on those levels someday; and (b) I like to occasionally offer a tip to someone struggling on a level that I've already mastered.

That said, I really would like people to open their threads (and most do) with some indication of what level they are playing on.

I played Europa Universalis, Close Combat and Master of Orion and my experience was that Civ was far more complex than those games. I can't comment on the other games in your list, because I have not played them, but perhaps someone else has and could add their thoughts.

If there is a great civ beating game out there then I would love to play it.

The reason I think Civ is more complex, relates to how it plays on the highest difficulty levels. It just won't give you an inch of room, and you really do have to scratch your head to stay alive, let alone win such a game.

Regards - Mr P

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that people would be prevented from posting in in either section, I just assumed that advanced players would continue to give ideas / advice where appropriate to players in the casual section, and therefore be posting in both sections, but that casual players would be naturally reluctant to post in the advanced section, unless they had something relevant to say.

a major reason for your proposal, if i'm reading it right, is that you and others have limited time to read the forums. that is indeed true. but, it also applies to those that you're assuming would help out in the casual section but not really learn anything there themselves. if the division is sharper and easy to tell before entering a forum at all, those "experts" (for lack of a better term) might not read the lower-level forum. they'd never stumble upon a post and reply with great advice like they do now. so i really wouldn't bet that your assumption would work out as well as you hope.

i'm coming at this with a bias from when i used to play WoW. i raided a lot a bit more than a year ago, but i was in a casual guild. we didn't have purely level 60s in it, to raid we had to group up with other guilds. because our own guild varied so much in levels, no matter which character we were playing, we had guildchat to talk in. we had people brand new to the game who learned a lot from those who'd been around a while, and i'd learn things all the time even from people 1/4 my level. some guilds in WoW are set up hard-core, only level 60s are allowed to join (well, 70 now i guess but whatever). all lower-level alts are in a different guild. that means those people aren't available on guildchat at all when playing their 60s. even when they're not busy raiding, they're just sitting around the auctionhouse with plenty of time to talk, the avenue is missing. they can only share their knowledge with the lower-levels when they're logged on as an alt.

CFC is set up like a casual guild now, not a hard-core raiding guild. i like it that way.

i'm also biased relative to the last line i quoted. "casual players would be naturally reluctant to post in the advanced section, unless they had something relevant to say." i don't have a natural reluctance to post when i don't have anything relevant to say. added bonus, i ask questions a lot, even if i know they'll sound dumb, because i'm not ashamed of my permanoob status. if i had a GPP for every CFC member i've annoyed that way, i could probably live in a permanent golden age ;).

I played Europa Universalis, Close Combat and Master of Orion and my experience was that Civ was far more complex than those games. I can't comment on the other games in your list, because I have not played them, but perhaps someone else has and could add their thoughts.

If there is a great civ beating game out there then I would love to play it.

The reason I think Civ is more complex, relates to how it plays on the highest difficulty levels. It just won't give you an inch of room, and you really do have to scratch your head to stay alive, let alone win such a game.

Regards - Mr P


For what it is Civ is the best game out there. I just dont agree its the most complex.

If you have beaten Master Of Orion, Europa Universalis and Close Combat on the highest difficulty, I commend you, you must be a better player of those than I am.

If you ever get a chance I'd really recommend the other games to you all great games, especially if you like lots of thinking.

While you and I will never agree about civ's complexity I am sure we can both agree thats its one hell of a game.

I appreciate the thought and idea behind the OP, but I don't think its necessary if people follow some basic ideas when the post. For example point out what level you play on, what map type, etc... when asking questions or for help.

So - for the more "uneducated" of us here (at least when it comes to online slang) can you translate 13375 and n0065? I am assuming that n0065 is noob...

:confused:

Heh, yeah. 13376 = "Leets", as in "Elite Players", the ones that write the guides and such in the war academy, and regularly achieve an Emperor level win.

n0065 = "Noobs" or Newbies, those whom are still figuring out the strategies necessary to win on Noble.

I'm in between those two categories, hence why I don't want to see my choice of discussions to have to be between one or the other.