With the easier version (I can see just popping a great merchant and sending him to Asia) the money in 1700 isn't a problem. The problem I can't seem to solve is how to stop the Portuguese and Spanish from colonizing Belem and Rio first and once they do that, getting to raze their cities by 1600 is impossible (just getting there takes too long). Should I put cities in those places preemptively? Then how to beat the adventurers (I barely held them off with 2 macemen, 3 longbowmen and a catapult in Tucume)?

With the easier version (I can see just popping a great merchant and sending him to Asia) the money in 1700 isn't a problem. The problem I can't seem to solve is how to stop the Portuguese and Spanish from colonizing Belem and Rio first and once they do that, getting to raze their cities by 1600 is impossible (just getting there takes too long). Should I put cities in those places preemptively? Then how to beat the adventurers (I barely held them off with 2 macemen, 3 longbowmen and a catapult in Tucume)?

The answer is probably more units. This is certainly how i survived the european onslaught as the Mayans... I had like 15 units in Tikal. Being able to predict where they're going to land is also useful - but i'm just playing as the Incans right now, so i don't know yet. (Amusingly enough, I started the game as Carthage with the goal to make the Med a Phoenician lake. Conquered Greece/Rome/Egypt, and whacked Babylon. Let Arabia have Sur (I razed Jerusalem =) ) when they spawned. Nailed Spain shortly after spawn (*my* Med). And then went peaceful but mischievous by spreading islam to germany and judaism to france and england. I also settled in SAm in like 800AD.... Just before i swapped to Inca France declared war on me. (From contact with Carthage, i know france is dead, and Egypt respawned and died... Now my only question is - does Carthage count as European? They certainly don't trigger the adventurers event.)

Oh, if anyone wants a "What if Carthage won the Punic Wars?" game save for jumping into the 600+AD civs with a really different history, i've got a 550AD save i can upload. Just before the Vikings. (No you won't be able to win the Carthage UHV - that was intentional).

It is my considered opinion that the Incan UHV is impossible on Monarch (and presumably emperor). Heck, if its possible on Viceroy its probably still incredibly hard.

(1) You start hopelessly behind on tech. You will never be able to trade tech with anyone. And countries like Portugal start at approximately the same time and research just as fast. (It probably didn't help that the Mayans collapsed around 800AD to barbarian invasion, and the Aztecs collapsed within 10 turns of their spawn date, unsure of the reason as of yet.)

(2) Its actually impossible to build enough settlers to occupy all of the SAm coast before the europeans get to you. Even if you build *nothing but settlers*. (ok, i did try to let my cities grow some before i started building settlers on that run).

(3) The Incans get crazy barb spawns inside their cultural borders and city useable tiles. And they're dog soldiers. Which means if you do build nothing but settlers you're going to get hosed. Further, Archers (your best bet against Dog Soldiers) can't weather a dog soldier attack especially well, so you need 2-3 of them at either end of the Andes. This is a huge production drain for not amazing productivity cities. Especially as you really need market/courthouse in every city asap. (And probably forge/library)

(4) You'll get hit by a nasty plague about the same time as the europeans discover you. The only reason I even kept playing after this point is because England didn't get the adventurers event when they found me - if they had it would have been game over. I had 1 military unit left - a quechua in Brazil somewhere (and far from my cities). The rest of my forces had had to deal with barbarian spawns at both ends *during* the plague, and any who survived the barbarians promptly died to plague. (Those garrisoning interior towns died immediately to the plague - we won't talk about them).

(5) Sometime before 1600 Portugal will found in Brazil. You will not be able to build units capable of driving them out. Note that the europeans tend to found in SAm earlier than Africa, meaning that Ethiopia, for example, would have more time to tech/build settlers even if it started the game at the same time you did. And it starts ~1000 years earlier, with trading partners. And capable of researching techs it can trade.

Even something like "don't lose a city before XXX date", similar to the Mayan UHV, would be really hard as the Inca. And holding all of SAm is even harder than that.

Edit: I'll note that the Incan UP doesn't precisely help. I mean, the production is nice from Mountains, but with no commerce you ultimately end up shooting yourself in the foot. 2 food/1 hammer/2 commerce might actually make the UHV plausible because of faster tech rate.

about the part where you can't produce units strong enough to drive the Portuguese out--that is actually not true (I got to knights and macemen by 1500) but it's getting them halfway across to Brazil that is the problem. I tried to anticipate the need by building roads halfway across to somewhere in Suriname but I still can't make both Belem and Rio. I don't have astronomy yet so galleons are out of the question.

One question--would the adventurers spawn if I founded my 4th city in eastern South America? If not I can just send a galley with settler/quecha early to Brazil and preempt the whole adventurer thing.

about the part where you can't produce units strong enough to drive the Portuguese out--that is actually not true (I got to knights and macemen by 1500) but it's getting them halfway across to Brazil that is the problem. I tried to anticipate the need by building roads halfway across to somewhere in Suriname but I still can't make both Belem and Rio. I don't have astronomy yet so galleons are out of the question.

One question--would the adventurers spawn if I founded my 4th city in eastern South America? If not I can just send a galley with settler/quecha early to Brazil and preempt the whole adventurer thing.

You're playing viceroy aren't you? (I was 2 turns from macemen and nowhere near knights in 1555, when i noticed Portugal had already settled Brazil with knights and macemen)

The adventurer event happens the first time you contact a european civ and they can see your territory. I think I managed to not trigger it because i contacted carthage (who had portugal as a vassal, and therefore contacted Portugal) first, and because Portugal couldn't see my borders, the first european civ contact blew the chance at the adventurer event. Similarly, you might be able to avoid it if you discover europe before they discover SAm.

I'm playing viceroy now and trying something weird. (Sending 2 of my 4 starting settlers to Brazil/Colombia and settling there really early). If it works i'll try it on monarch.

Attached image really says it all. Note location of french Galleon and my scout which it spotted. Note location of adventurer spawn (what the hell?). Note the year. Yes, its a mere 160 years (and 16 turns) in from the Incan spawn - and now i have to deal with knights/pikes/catapults/crossbows... and i have archers and just got bronzeworking like 4 turns ago (no bronze mined)...

I really hate the 600AD start. For some reason France always turbo-techs straight to astronomy and has galleons by like 1200AD. Totally ridiculous. How they manage this when they *tile their land in workshops* I have no idea.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=163064&stc=1&d=1193399637

Edit: (1) to add insult to injury, they spawned right on top of two of my workers. Apparently this means i lose the workers, yay. (2) I'm not even sure the Aztec have spawned yet. I certainly haven't gotten a message "would you like to play as the Aztec?" At this point my answer would be yes. (3) Why is the adventurers spawn strongest against the Inca? Shouldn't it be strongest against the Maya, who have had time to tech/build units/etc...? A colonizing power seriously gets 2x as many units vs. the Inca as they would vs. the Maya. (4) More adventurers spawned than I have military units in my whole country. (3 knights, 2 catapult, 3 crossbow, 2 pikemen or something like that to my 3 archers and 2 quechua). I suppose I could have like 2 more archers, if i'd done nothing but produce military units, and possibly a 3rd. I'm tempted to watch France annihilate me for laughs...

Historically, the Spanish forces that took Peru were much more powerful than those in Mexico, so the imbalance is at least realistic...

Cheers, Luke

Historically, the Spanish forces that took Peru were much more powerful than those in Mexico, so the imbalance is at least realistic...

Cheers, Luke

Yeah, but that was a force assembled in spain, not random adventurers. If they want to sack Peru with massive forces, they should have to *build* them.

(Similarly, I think an adventurers event should be available to American civs if they reach europe before europe reaches the Americas. Yeah, not likely to happen, but i see no real reason why discovery should be asymmetric. Ie, we should be just as capable of asking "what would have happened if a fleet of Aztec ships with cannon sailed up to a less developed Spain. See _Guns, Germs, and Steel_ for reasons why historically it was Europe that was more advanced).

Now my only question is - does Carthage count as European? They certainly don't trigger the adventurers event.)

I've had the event happen numerous times as Carthage. I even had it happen TWICE within 4 turns, and ended up taking the Mayans and Incans. That surprised me.

So the answer is, yes, Carthage gets the event.

BTW I did a game similar to yours. I made my empire a trading monster, and got stupidly rich, and then conquered all of Europe and the middle east in the 16th century... and I razed ALL of their cities. It was funny having only Carthage, China, India, and America left in the 20th century! (The others that I didn't destroy collapsed by themselves) Best game I ever had. Most of the world was completely empty and full of ruins. That ruled.

I've had the event happen numerous times as Carthage. I even had it happen TWICE within 4 turns, and ended up taking the Mayans and Incans. That surprised me.

So the answer is, yes, Carthage gets the event.

BTW I did a game similar to yours. I made my empire a trading monster, and got stupidly rich, and then conquered all of Europe and the middle east in the 16th century... and I razed ALL of their cities. It was funny having only Carthage, China, India, and America left in the 20th century! (The others that I didn't destroy collapsed by themselves) Best game I ever had. Most of the world was completely empty and full of ruins. That ruled.

Huh, i met the Mayans and the Incans and never got the adventurer event. Of course, as the Incans i met the french in 1180 and it didn't trigger, but triggered on meeting them again in 1360. Is there something else to it other than 'American civ gets discovered by european civ'?

I actually just totally abused the mercenaries as shock troops to weaken city defenses. Dead mercenaries collect no wages. And when i had a few mercenaries that got pretty well xped, i promoted and then upgraded them (which stops you paying for them as mercenaries!). My economy could have been better, but i was busy killing stuff. (Athens also built every wonder except the ones which were already built when i started, just because. Well, every wonder except the Great Wall, which really wanted to be in Africa). If i hadn't switched to the Incans, my economy probably would have caught up to my expansion in little time, i shouldn't have held Barcelona, really.

Thank you squirrelloid and others...
So it seems the consensus approach is to be completely ahistorical--Inca needs to expand from the beginning into eastern South America. Will try this (in viceroy mode of course).

Kinda reminds me of Rome's strategy of concentrating on colonizing Eastern Europe because it knew that France, Germany and Spain are going to spawn in 1000 years; or that the Chinese should never build cities north where the Mongols roam. That's what you call historical insight. :lol:

If you fail at viceroy:( :( , try at monarch:confused: :confused: . Maybe one time, you'll be........;) ;) Lucky!:lol: :lol:

No joking, but luck is really important if you're playing as the incans.

It is my considered opinion that the Incan UHV is impossible on Monarch (and presumably emperor). Heck, if its possible on Viceroy its probably still incredibly hard.


I agree.

You'll get hit by a nasty plague about the same time as the europeans discover you.

If you can get Caravels first, go find them, and you'll get the plague earlier. Not that it makes the UHV any easier.

Better news for the New World civs: I've triggered the Adventurer's Event as the Japanese (and the plagues), and seen the Arab adventurers take out the Aztecs, so it's not just the Europeans, but the Old World versus the New World.

I'm going to cut down the area. Are you comfortable with "South America except Brazil"? Or maybe it's better "South America west of the Falklands"?

"West of the Falklands" still includes Patagonia? It would make it a little easier. Taking on Argentinian and Venezuelan cities is hard, but trying to depopulate European Brazil afterwards is frustrating, at best.

Wouldn't "West of the Falklands" be approximately the same area as the Viceroyalty of Peru, after the Treaty of Tordesillas? It would make historical sense, even if the Viceroyalty was Spanish, and not Incan.

Huh, i met the Mayans and the Incans and never got the adventurer event. Of course, as the Incans i met the french in 1180 and it didn't trigger, but triggered on meeting them again in 1360. Is there something else to it other than 'American civ gets discovered by european civ'?

I actually just totally abused the mercenaries as shock troops to weaken city defenses. Dead mercenaries collect no wages. And when i had a few mercenaries that got pretty well xped, i promoted and then upgraded them (which stops you paying for them as mercenaries!). My economy could have been better, but i was busy killing stuff. (Athens also built every wonder except the ones which were already built when i started, just because. Well, every wonder except the Great Wall, which really wanted to be in Africa). If i hadn't switched to the Incans, my economy probably would have caught up to my expansion in little time, i shouldn't have held Barcelona, really.

The event doesn't trigger until after 1300 AD or so. I actually met the Mayan's first in 900 AD or so with a caravel, and no event triggered, not even the plague.

I'm going to cut down the area. Are you comfortable with "South America except Brazil"? Or maybe it's better "South America west of the Falklands"?

Actually, I'm not totally convinced the Incan UHV needs to be modified anymore. I have a few things I want to try on Monarch to see if they work. But i have won a viceroy uhv at this point, which means i see a light at the end of the tunnel. (Strategy guide to come when i've won a monarch UHV, as i figure that's the default difficulty).

I'm going to cut down the area. Are you comfortable with "South America except Brazil"? Or maybe it's better "South America west of the Falklands"?

Ok, having tried a few games on monarch (including one in which the adventurers event didn't even trigger), I have to say that this is not the part that's making it difficult.

Viceroy is doable because you can actually catch up in tech, and so can compete militarily. Monarch is impossible because you are hopelessly behind, and therefore can't evict european colonies once they've been formed. It takes 30ish turns to get Feudalism, which is necessary to survive the adventurers event, and getting it before the adventurers event is a gamble. (Of course, if you don't, you might as well quit because the game is over for you - and i mean that literally. They can and will take all your cities).

Having survived the adventurers event a few times, I'd get stuck in this hopeless position where someone would colonize (ugg... Spain in Argentina last game), and I'd try to go attack their city and they'd whip a musket. To which the best unit i had was a longbow. And I couldn't match the production power of spain to win a war of attrition.

You can't even really trade for tech, because they ask ridiculous amounts of money for them. So by the time you've bought 1 or 2 techs you're out of cash (remembering that you need to pay to upgrade archers to longbows as well, because you won't be able to build longbows fast enough after reaching feudalism). And buying a tech that might almost be good, like Machinery? Forget it - you can't afford it.

The only things that could help the Inca are (1) improve their "handicap" (research costs less), (2) Have mountains provide commerce as well as food/hammers. Anything else won't actually make the UHV any easier, because you'll still be fighting knights and muskets with longbows - which is ok so long as you're only defending cities, but a losing proposition if you have to attack somewhere.

I suppose you could also open the passes earlier. I don't think I could have even gotten a settler to Argentina before the Spanish settled there besides sending one of my starting settlers, because I had to walk all the way around South America since the only exit is out through the jungle into Venezuela/Colombia. Alternately, I suppose that goodie hut could always give a settler to the Inca like it seems to in Viceroy... at least, i've always gotten a settler from it in Viceroy as the Inca.

(I'm also hopelessly confused as to what triggers the adventurers event at this point, as Spain discovered me on turn 239, and no adventurers event triggered - and they were the first European power i'd seen.)

But not requiring you to prevent settlers in Brazil... eh. It would make it very mildly easier, but not in a way that was especially useful.

I'm going to cut down the area. Are you comfortable with "South America except Brazil"? Or maybe it's better "South America west of the Falklands"?

You may make Incas able to reach the atlantic coast via a land route after they discover a certain tech.

You may make Incas able to reach the atlantic coast via a land route after they discover a certain tech.

That is a good idea (maybe Engineering which is required for bridge building?)

Thanks to Squirrelloid and his insights I finally won (as Warren G. Harding only).:p
Some comments:
1. The trick is not to have the adventurers even appear. This seems to be possible if you contact the Europeans but they can't see your cities. I did this by building my capital south of Cuzco, captured Tucume, built Quito, and another city (whose name shall remain unprounceable) in the middle of Brazil (where Rhye has thoughtfully placed some corn for health and some iron). The landlocked city expanded with terraces and its culture just reached the coast minus one square. There's enough space for even another landlocked city to cover the northern part of Brazil. I placed a scout at the very eastern tip of Brazil and another one in northern Brazil where the European caravels have to see me first. France and Netherlands and then Spain reached me by 1450. Then I founded the city north of Quito and expanded eastward rapidly to cover the whole northern half of the continent by 1550. There must be a stop date for the adventurers which you have to pass by to avoid them--it's around 1450-1500.
2. When the Europeans appear, some jungles disappear and the mountain passes appear. It's important to have some settlers in waiting so that they can just race towards Uruguay where Spain tends to like their settlers.
3. The 2 great merchants can be spawned in the 1600's (using castes and pacifism) within 50-60 years--just make sure markets and grocers are whipped before hand in your capital and usually Tucume (your 2nd largest city). The best city to send them to is probably Amsterdam (got 1500 and 1700 gold) because it's the largest European city other than London.
4. The only potential Europeans that like to build in SAm early are the Portuguese and Spanish. Once you destroy the Portuguese colonies they will not bother you again. The international conferences are troublesome, but if you befriend enough people (like the French, the Dutch, the English) usually their votes will be enough to override your cities being handed over.
5. Environmentalism is amazing in SAm (probably impossible to reach in Monarch mode)--it made my cities grow to 21 by 1800.:health: :gold:

The problem is not winning viceroy. (See other thread where i detailed my doing so, despite triggering the adventurers event). The problem is winning monarch - something that *should* be doable with good play, but doesn't seem even remotely plausible.

I agree, Squirrelloid--it's impossible to beat the Europeans at tech. But avoiding the conquerors event is possible (in fact essential), which potentially gives you breathing room for evicting them after they settle, or so I thought...
I started a game in Monarch mode. I built no farther than Tucume and in the south a city on the first copper. Then I had a settler waiting on the corn above the northern pass so that he will be the first contact with the Europeans. If he didn't work, I had a scout waiting on the northeastern tip of Brazil. I had an inland city that nobody was going to see, not even the Portuguese. I thought I was set...until the freaking Chinese shows up with all their knights, musketmen and cannon!! Captured everything in sight.

Rhye, in the next update please make only the Europeans have the conquerors event (for historical accuracy). :mad:
(I wasn't complaining when I was playing as Khmer) :lol:

I've had the Independents come in and demolish Tucume, with superior weaponry... I couldn't recover it before the Portuguese took it.

Rhye, in the next update please make only the Europeans have the conquerors event (for historical accuracy).
But if any Asians of Africans were in the same position as Spain, the same thing could have happened.

Well, the Chinese or Japanese could have never made it to the Americas (their ships are no way as sturdy as the Europeans) and I believe their religion(s) forbid such barbarism (be it Buddhist, Taoist or Confucian)...:p
And we are talking about a historical simulator, so Europeans (and not Malians or Turks) should have the conquerors event).

Well, the Chinese or Japanese could have never made it to the Americas (their ships are no way as sturdy as the Europeans) and I believe their religion(s) forbid such barbarism (be it Buddhist, Taoist or Confucian)...
And we are talking about a historical simulator, so Europeans (and not Malians or Turks) should have the conquerors event).
If it is such a simulation, why don't we forbid the Aztecs, Inca, and Maya from developing the Wheel etc.... before contact with Europeans?
Why isn't there an event causing barbarians to conquer Rome in 476 (since in the game it cleary focuses on the Western Roman Empire).
Why isn't it hard-coded that the Arabs can't win battles in France.
etc...
etc...

The game is about paralleling history (and changing it), not recreating it. In a game of RFC the Chinese can be the first to build a ship capable of going to the Americas (though they do seem to have had ships capable of it historically, they just didn't do it, unless you believe the 1421 hypothesis). As for religion: Christianity preaches peace, and conquered the Americas. The Chinese and Japanese didn't have any problems with conquering (or at least trying to) nearby civilizations (Koreans for example), so what would be different about the Americas?