As the public wing of the "Peoples Freedom Army of Phoenatica (PFAP)", we will do almost everything for implementing more freedom for our citizens. But we must condemn the rude methods of our more right wing, the "Radical Revolt for Phoenatica (RRP)".

Out manifests:
1) give all power to citizenry (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25010)
more polls! on all issues of the game!
2) reduce governmental positions (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25012)
best to be without it. but a few will be needed
3) minimalization of rules (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25014)
the less rules we have, the better they must be and the easier the game will run

If you want to Sign in, state below.
If you want to discuss a topic, please state a link to a discussion thread below.
If you want to discuss in general, feel free to do in here.

Disorganizer
Lovro
Major Guevara
Chieftess
Immortal
trade/warrior
chiefpaco
Phoenix

Count me in. :goodjob:

Im in too. Power to the people!!!

I'll join also, but only if you takeo out the 2) reduce government positions.
best to be without it. but a few will be needed
3) minimalization of rules
the less rules we have, the better they must be and the easier the game will run


parts...

2) All the current govermental poistions are mainly needed or helps, the only one's that are even possilbe(without making it to hard to run the game) is the govornors. But the lost of them could make it hard.

3)The rules are fine how they are.... If we minimize the rules everything will turn into complete choas and disorder.

Sign me up.

* with cutting down for example half of the rules, it will be ppbly fine. with 75% cut out propably perfect. all other things will be just a consensus of citizens who will take part in the chat.

* the government removal does not imply the position itself. i wanted to save that for a discussion thread (the how-tos). but an idea: the departments could still exist as citizen groups. they find opportunities in the saves, make plans and propose them to a poll. the leader position is useless and so is the deputy. you sign in to the department you like by participating in the coresponding threads.
the coc could be elected on each month, which will bring up a ranked list of maybe 10 players for the chat-runs.

more on this in a few days when discussions cooled down. in a separate thread. just to give you an idea.

I don't agree.... I'll have to refuse any support ;)

you already know I'm in dis :)

I'll post my opinion of the new government structure once all the stuff with the PI's cools off. (Not wanting to rattle any cages until I'm sure it won't cause a revolution)

BTW, the shadowy members of the RRP still believe in the same ideals you do. They just stay underground, and contemplate the downfall fo the government, I only know of two members....
I thought the acronym stood for Representative Revolutionary Party...

Im sorry you dont take part in it, Strider, but make sure you look at our discussions. Maybe we can break your sentiments to governmental suppression in our discussions soon ;-).

@Immortal:
I also hold back our discussions until the chat-incident is over. I hope the next one is not around the corner soon! I will then start discussion on the 3 topics.

count me in!

:king: :whipped:

first discussion up:
all power to citizencry (PPO discussion 1) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25010)
as DOM also started on this issue

second discussion up:
reduce governmental positions (PPO discussion 2) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25012)
as this relates closely to the first one

third discussion up:
minimalization of rules (PPO discussion 3) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25014)
as it also fits.
make sure to also discuss in DOMs thread on cutting the chats. i think the idea is evil.

I'm all for giving the citizens as much power as possible. I can't agree with either of the other goals though. What you are descibing is not a democracy but an anarchy.

These definitions are from the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:

democracy - Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.

anarchy - Absence of any form of political authority.

democracy - Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives

as you said. exercised directly... government directly by the people is what we campaign ;-)

the absence of authority=anarchy would be that somone takes the game and just plays a few turns without any polls or any decision base. and without anyone controlling him.

The people directly governing a land without political authority is an anarchy. Anarchy doesn't work. Pure democracy doesn't work either. It is not efficient enough to support itself. Even Athenian democracy was, in effect, representative. The people of Athens were divided into classes. Those in the highest classes ruled (represented) those below them. The vast majority of Athenian citizens did not involve themselves in politics. They gave proxy to the professional arbiters and politicians to represent their interests.

dont mix real life with a game. here, we can do electronic voting, which is much faster than normal elections. this is the reason why in real life, these system did not work->voting too slow.
here, we have a valid poll thru in 2-3 days. + eleectrnic discussion of 2 days, which will be a lead time of 5-6 days. 1 day for organizing the things will give us a week per decission. in athenian democracy, they had to discuss and vote for months.

another thing:
your definition of anarchy conflicts with the definition in the dictionary ;-P
you say democracy driven directly by the people does not work. the oposite is shown in every club or other private organization, to which we are comparable with only 30-80 citizens.
if we would grow over 100000s of citizens, then you might be right, but in the small scale it should work (and worked in the civ2-demo).

I personally have absolutely zero desire to discuss and vote on every single aspect of the game. That level of tedium is what I want to escape from in my recreational activities. Whether it's feasible or not (and I do not for a minute believe that it is), it's not practical.
you say democracy driven directly by the people does not work. the oposite is shown in every club or other private organization, to which we are comparable with only 30-80 citizens.
Show me a club or private organization that does not have a president, treasurer or other officers that are in charge of aspects of the organization and have the authority to carry out their duties.

got me partially on this point, but on regular gatherings all decisions are voted on normally.
so there the president does not make any decission, he give the opportunities to the members to vote on.


could we redirect this to the discussion about giving all power to citizenry? it seems to better fit in there. or we will have to open a seperate discussion thread, as this should be a group-thread mainly not to be too much discussive.

Originally posted by Shaitan
I personally have absolutely zero desire to discuss and vote on every single aspect of the game.

And I had no desire for our president to ignore polls he starts. Nor do I have any desire for our President to be able to veto anything he sees fit. Funny how life works like that :D

Originally posted by disorganizer
got me partially on this point, but on regular gatherings all decisions are voted on normally.
so there the president does not make any decission, he give the opportunities to the members to vote on.

Kinda like a turnchat? ;)

there arent enough people at the turn chat for that to work punkbass, as we can see currently.

Well, maybe they should show up. If you can't attend the meetings of your club, why are you in the club? Also, I've been thinking that maybe people should just realize that they simply may not have a say in all issues. Last night, I was unable to attend the turnchat. Do I complain that I had no say in what happened in last night's turn? No! I couldn't make it, and am fine with the decisions that were made, regardless of whether or not it was what I would have done. Life's like that.

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, maybe they should show up. If you can't attend the meetings of your club, why are you in the club?

Self Destructive measure like that would only serve to reduce the number of participating citizens.

Originally posted by Immortal


Self Destructive measure like that would only serve to reduce the number of participating citizens.

So? If you don't want to play, don't play. Many of the other suggested measures will lose citizens as well. I can't think of many suggestions so far that if implemented wouldn't cause me to leave, to be quite honest. If we abolish the turnchat, I'm gone. That is the game, as far as I'm concerned. Giving the president too much power would also cause me too leave. I was very annoyed when I discovered on Thursday that the spot poll for trading medicine had not been carried out. Polling every little decision would cause me too leave as well. Simply from boredom. Remove most of the constitution? Gone, even more chaotic than before. Remove the government? Gone, again, even more chaos.

Well, I didnt say to abolish the turnchat, so I don't know why your attacking me with that... The president would have NO (read NO) power, so I don't know why you brought that up. I was also upset that the medicine trade spot poll was not followed, he held the poll and it is binding. Remove and revamp the constitution, not simply remove it, we would take it, reshape it and condense it for easier to follow rules. Remove the government is propoganda some are using to hurt our cause, I don't want to remove the government, I want to make it a group that origanizes the citizens wishes (through polls) into a flexible and coherent whole.

Originally posted by Immortal
Well, I didnt say to abolish the turnchat, so I don't know why your attacking me with that... The president would have NO (read NO) power, so I don't know why you brought that up. I was also upset that the medicine trade spot poll was not followed, he held the poll and it is binding. Remove and revamp the constitution, not simply remove it, we would take it, reshape it and condense it for easier to follow rules. Remove the government is propoganda some are using to hurt our cause, I don't want to remove the government, I want to make it a group that origanizes the citizens wishes (through polls) into a flexible and coherent whole.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. I never referred to you at all. I was just talking generally about cures that are worse than the disease, so to speak.

Originally posted by Immortal


And I had no desire for our president to ignore polls he starts. Nor do I have any desire for our President to be able to veto anything he sees fit. Funny how life works like that :D
Don't say that here!!! Are you crazy?!? This will turn into PI6 part 12.

Incidentally, the Presidential veto is only for changes to the constitution.

Originally posted by disorganizer
got me partially on this point, but on regular gatherings all decisions are voted on normally.
so there the president does not make any decission, he give the opportunities to the members to vote on.


could we redirect this to the discussion about giving all power to citizenry? it seems to better fit in there. or we will have to open a seperate discussion thread, as this should be a group-thread mainly not to be too much discussive.
This is sort of all of it combined into one instead of the individual aspects of the proposed changes. I'd prefer a new thread over one dedicated to only one part of the discussion. If you lead, I shall follow.

/me looks around "hope nobody heard that!" I whisper
/me craws out of the window (its a joke) and toward compusmart, Im gone for the rest of the week getting a new computer. Hopefully this will all be resolved by next week.

@punkbass:
either you dont work or you are still at school or you live in usa. this is not a usa only game, so participating in the turn-chat is nearly impossible for about 30% of our citizens, as they live in a timezone where 23:59GMT is way out of scope for a chat (for example here it is 0:59 AM!). We could also start to vote for a european president who hold chats at 21:00 GMT, this will automatically throw our us citizens out of the game. So please dont be so rude unless you want to destroy the game.

Originally posted by disorganizer
@punkbass:
either you dont work or you are still at school or you live in usa. this is not a usa only game, so participating in the turn-chat is nearly impossible for about 30% of our citizens, as they live in a timezone where 23:59GMT is way out of scope for a chat (for example here it is 0:59 AM!). We could also start to vote for a european president who hold chats at 21:00 GMT, this will automatically throw our us citizens out of the game. So please dont be so rude unless you want to destroy the game.

I am in school, but that's not relevant. I make time to attend the chats, much like I make time to visit the forums. If you work the night shift, do you join a bowling league where the games are at 8pm? No. If you can't attend, you can't attend. There is nothing that can be done. I have not seen a viable solution to the turnchat problem. I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but I cannot see a better solution. I personally do not see it as a huge problem if I can't attend. Up until recently, I missed most of the turnchats, and I did not feel the least bit left out of the game. The only thing I can think of is staggered turnchat times, ie. 24 GMT, then 6 GMT, then 12 GMT, then 18 GMT.

Count me in, disorganizer

Sign me up! I think that the officials should be downgraded to advicers of the people instead of just removing many of them.

Another thought what shall we call this new government - what about the peoples' republic, and the leader to be know as the first citizen?

I think that at the next election time we should try for a revolution. We could do this by having the revolution option with a candidate (or more than one entery if allowed) then the people could vote for a 'Revolution Candidate' if they want a revolution (how many times have I written revolution?).

many times, phoenix.
the removal is not planned as removing the people but removing the governmental positions. if you read the corespoding thread then you will see that an organization like citizen-groups was proposed for the departments there.

I feel the same as Strider, and am hence unable to join your cause.

A new suggestion from donsig and supported by me has been introduced to the new Constitution thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=343489#post343489). Please check it out and comment. It greatly increases the power and responsibility of the citizens.

Nominations have opened. Shall we move for a revolution?
Personaly I feel that the time is right.

I could go for democracy but not until the wonder program is completed.

I am adamantly opposed to any "revolution" or otherwise, which is not voted on and debated by all the people.

Bill
...in PDX, the happiest place in all the land

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, maybe they should show up. If you can't attend the meetings of your club, why are you in the club? Also, I've been thinking that maybe people should just realize that they simply may not have a say in all issues. Last night, I was unable to attend the turnchat. Do I complain that I had no say in what happened in last night's turn? No! I couldn't make it, and am fine with the decisions that were made, regardless of whether or not it was what I would have done. Life's like that.

I've stepped away from publically calling for an end to turn chats, as I can clearly see that some Phoenaticans enjoy it.

However, everyone should keep in mind that the Demo game is not, was not, and should not, be designed as a vehicle to support turn chat.

The chats evolved out of a good idea to play the turns in public, however, all significant governing and discussion has always been intended for the forums, not the few people who can make chats.

Bill
...in PDX

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
Bill
...in PDX
Isn't PDX the happiest place in the land any more? :eek:

i like to encourage all our members to actively take part in this discussion:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25340&pagenumber=2
especiall the part of article J. in my opinion, this article reduces power of citizenry in some point for rule-changes (standards are also rules). i would like to hear other PPO-opinions about this.

Originally posted by Shaitan

Isn't PDX the happiest place in the land any more? :eek:

LOL

Of course, PDX will have excellent chance of remaining the happiest place in all the land given the wonders already built. ;-)

I was in a bit of a rush when I typed that last note.

Just for you Shaitan...

Bill
...in PDX, the happiest place in all the land!!!!!

why dont you put in in your sig?

I like my Einstein quote better, I've used it ever since my days of discussion boards on BBS's in San Diego. I wanted to keep my sig lines down too.

Does this citizen group still exist? Since im comiling all the citizen group for the tourism association i need to know weather to add it or omit it from the records.

thx
Phoenatica Tourism Assoc.