What is your least used civic? For me, it's a tie between Environmentalism and Pacifism, but I vote Environmentalism, even though I myself am a kind of "Environmentalist".

State Property for me.

I'd take Representation + Mercantilism or Univesal Suffrage/Police State + Free Market any day. In fact, I don't think I've ever used State Property.

I almost never use Feudalism or Pacifism. Voted Pacifism.

Heh, I just realized the civic is called "serfdom" and not "feudalism." Shows how much I use it.

I've never used Police State, not even once by mistake, and I have been playing this game since it came out, strange :-/

Police State for me. I am certain I've never used it. It comes late and there is almost always a better choice for me. Nationhood would be my second choice but I've at least used it and it allows drafting and happy faces for barracks.

Environmentalism for me. Police state I actually do use once in a while.

serfdom or state property for me. I love pacifism and the GP bonus. and environmentalism is good to get some health (more GP).

I almost never use Free Religion. If I'm playing a culture or science game, then I typically have at least one religion, and if I'm playing a warmonger then chances are I've taken a holy city before Liberalism. Not to mention FR screws up diplomacy like crazy and invalidates Spiral Minaret and the science version of that.

It used to be environmentalism but now that BTS bade the A.I. build more units, and I play with aggressive A.I. on, it's pacifism.
EDIT: I forgot nationhood. They're probably tied.

Environmentalism. The other choices have amazing bonuses, and health with a few smiles just doesn't cut it. Relatively expensive, too.

Nationalism for me.

Police State is good for anti-war weariness.
Environmentalism is good for industrial health.
Pacifism is good w/ Philosophical+Parthenon for SE.
Nationalism is good for nothing.

I've used State Property pre-BTS. Not any more now there's corporations!

Civics I don't use:

Tie between Hereditary Rule and Police State
Tie between Free Speech and Vassalage
Caste System
Tie between Merchantilism, Environmentalism and State Property, post-BTS
Tie between Pacifism and Theocracy.

Other than that, the other civics I might use at times or I have used a lot. One choice for all isn't very fair

Nationalism is good for nothing.

WHY YOU LITTLE!! -starts choking you-
In all seriousness though, Nationhood is the lifeblood of my Civ. Without my Stack of Conscripts of Doom (SOCOD), I could never go on a warpath on Settler. Besides that, if you're under attack by hostile enemies, like in my first Warlord game, conscription gets you out of a tight spot, along with the Slave Rushing (as you're most likely short on cash)

Bureaucracy is the one civic I *almost* never use. Used it maybe a few times in BST as part of the whole 2 or 3 Corp HQ + Wall Street gold generation method.

But I haven't used Serfdom in along time since I discovered the usefullness of Slavery. I never used Slavery till after having BSt already, I always thought it was one of those "depends on plan" type civics. But after trying it out in a lan game where I was already ahead, I ended up booming even more. I was only trying to test it as something new. Now it is a stable for me and I never use serfdom anymore as a result since I either keep Slavery till I have to switch to Empication or I go to caste system for a great person rush.

All the other civics I use now and then. Nationhood might be the least used, and in heavy wars I use Police state if its allowed. Theology I don't get often since I rarely even get monothism.

Serfdom. It's completely useless. It comes at a time when the most important improvements have already been built and workers are set to less important, non-urgent tasks. And there are already other, much better civics available, either Vassalage or Caste System.

For me its clear: Theocracy.
I run either Organized religion (+25% and missionaries without monastries + wonder-whoring) or Pacifism (GP-whoring).

Close second for go-away-i-dont-like-you is Environmentalism (dont you dare to interfere with my beloved State property).

I loathe Emancipation.
Every other Civic is a choice, Emancipation becomes mandatory at some point.

nationhood sees very limited use in my games too, though it at least has some uses.

Serfdom. It's completely useless. It comes at a time when the most important improvements have already been built and workers are set to less important, non-urgent tasks. And there are already other, much better civics available, either Vassalage or Caste System.or slavery

Agreed completely with my addendum in red

I was going to choose Serfdom, but realized that there were one or two occasions when I found it useful to switch to serfdom when colonizing a new continent in the middle ages for a while. Although I've run Environmentalism more, it was entirely due to a UN vote. I've never voluntarily chosen Environmentalism, even in BtS; the benefits of corporations are too great. And if I've missed out on corporations, I'm heading for a military victory, and State Property is far more useful.

I dont' understand why so many people disregard nationalism. In all due respects slavery is a much harder civic to use well than nationalism, yet so many use the former and deride the latter.

My least used civic, surprise surprise, is organized religion. +25% building production bonus is awesome, except that during this stage, you should be building settlers, workers and units, or whipping out granaries, courthouses and barracks. Maybe temples, but you'd most like whip them. After that, the high civic upkeep starts to kick in, and more importantly, the diplomatic difficulties that come with declaring a state religion.

Serfdom is actually very useful once you're done whipping buildings, and pacifism combos well with feudalism for the free units.

I was going to choose Serfdom, but realized that there were one or two occasions when I found it useful to switch to serfdom when colonizing a new continent in the middle ages for a while. Although I've run Environmentalism more, it was entirely due to a UN vote. I've never voluntarily chosen Environmentalism, even in BtS; the benefits of corporations are too great. And if I've missed out on corporations, I'm heading for a military victory, and State Property is far more useful.

You can run corporations under environmentalism.

The only civics I don't use much are State Property, Serfdom and Nationalism. I use Police State and Environmentalism alot.

You can run corporations under environmentalism.

For a huge markup. Why would I want that? :badcomp:

I would have said environmentalism, until I used it in a recent game.

It was variant play where no agression was allowed, it worked fantastically well in my 8 city (normal size map) empire - the health boost was well worth it, and the costs insignificant. It also did wonders for my national park city. Partly compensating for having less health resources than a 'normal' game.

Another one, like beurecracy, that is well worth considering for a small empire.


For me, it'd be a trade off between serfdom and theocracy. Neither are bad, but they're very situational.

IMO serfdom arrives after the time to use it has passed. Think it should be available earlier - perhaps with monarchy - becomes a competitive alternative to slavery - might be worth considering on some maps?

Theocracy I rarely seem to get to - OR, Pacifism or no/free religion normally seem better choices.

I've used serfdom when a good part of my work force was captured by an enemy. I've used pretty much every civic in some situation, except for enviromentalism and pacifism. What does that say about my playing style :hmm:?

I'm heading for a military victory, and State Property is far more useful.

As stated above, I don't use Sate Property. This leads me to believe that I'm doing it wrong. Please, educate me on State Property. (So you know where I stand, I can win Monarch games, but still trying to get a good Emperor game started.)

Serfdom is actually very useful once you're done whipping buildings, and pacifism combos well with feudalism for the free units.

Wait, what's does "done whipping" mean? :confused:

IMO, you're never done with slavery. Slavery is how I keep my happiness under control. Yes, happiness ;)

Though I have a few rules as far as whipping goes, and with every rule there is an exception (or three.) Hey, that sounds like a new thread idea!

As stated above, I don't use Sate Property. This leads me to believe that I'm doing it wrong. Please, educate me on State Property. (So you know where I stand, I can win Monarch games, but still trying to get a good Emperor game started.)


I am not a *huge* State Property fan, as I find that corporations mesh better with my preferred playing style. The advantage to SP, though, is that if you're going for that domination win, the more cities you own, the more city maintenance costs start skyrocketing -- especially with colonial expenses for overseas holdings in BtS. You COULD reduce these costs by spinning off overseas holdings into colonies, but that cuts into your domination % count for land (and doesn't help at all if you're a huge one-continent empire along the lines of the old USSR). In that situation, it's often more cost-effective to switch to State Property, which will significantly reduce those maintenance costs. It also has the advantage of allowing you the benefit of foreign trade routes (as opposed to Mercantilism, which cuts those off.)

SP is also helpful in that workshops receive no food penalty, and watermills provide +1 food, allowing you extra productivity and extra population growth.

There are some articles on SP in the Strategy Section, too (probably vanilla or warlords-centric, but still worth a read).
As I said, in my judgment, I'd rather have Sushi/Cereal and Mining/Creative Constructions in my cities, but if I miss the boat on those and I'm going to have to go military to win the game, SP is very attractive.

Environmentalism. Comes too late in most games.
Next would be Pacifism. I have too many unitd\s and too many wars.

I am not a *huge* State Property fan, as I find that corporations mesh better with my preferred playing style. The advantage to SP, though, is that if you're going for that domination win, the more cities you own, the more city maintenance costs start skyrocketing -- especially with colonial expenses for overseas holdings in BtS. You COULD reduce these costs by spinning off overseas holdings into colonies, but that cuts into your domination % count for land (and doesn't help at all if you're a huge one-continent empire along the lines of the old USSR). In that situation, it's often more cost-effective to switch to State Property, which will significantly reduce those maintenance costs. It also has the advantage of allowing you the benefit of foreign trade routes (as opposed to Mercantilism, which cuts those off.)

SP is also helpful in that workshops receive no food penalty, and watermills provide +1 food, allowing you extra productivity and extra population growth.

There are some articles on SP in the Strategy Section, too (probably vanilla or warlords-centric, but still worth a read).
As I said, in my judgment, I'd rather have Sushi/Cereal and Mining/Creative Constructions in my cities, but if I miss the boat on those and I'm going to have to go military to win the game, SP is very attractive.

Thank you, jkp1187. That was very helpful.

I see why I've never found it useful; I play on smaller maps. Unfortunately my computer is very old, about 6 and 1/2 years old now, and if I try to play on a map larger than small, my end game turns go literally like this: *End Turn?* *hit Enter* *Wait 5 minutes* *Okay your turn!*

Perhaps when I get a new computer, and can play on Huge maps without pulling my hair out, I'll be able to understand the greatness of State Property. But until then, I don't think it'll have as much use for me as would other civics.

Thanks again!

I voted bureaucracy. ALthough it is a tie for nationalism with me. I honestly can't recall a time I ever used either of them. Although what made me lean towards bureaucracy over nationalism is the fact that I can see some situations where I may use nationalism some day.

The only time I can see myself using bureaucracy is if I played OCC. And I just dont ever play that. And I doubt I ever will.

Voted Serfdom. Would rather be sacrificing my peasants to the whip than making them work as share croppers. Police state, nationhood, vassalage, environmentalism and pacifism aren't common for me, but there are times when I'll use them-- the usual stuff you'd expect, pacifism with philosophical for crazy GP, and if I'm spiritual and need war police state/nationhood/vassalage can come in handy. Environmentalism has it's periodic uses as well.

It's a tie for me with Caste System & Pacifism. They are the only two civics I've never used.

Serfdom for me. I use it sometimes, but I can skip it most games. Slavery is too good early on, and unless I have a lot of new territory to develop, faster workers don't help. I'd rather just get the bonus by tech, when I need it, and possibly build the Hagia.

I don't often like Environmentalism but once the UN is around it can be a decent choice. If everyone runs it, then your higher costs are countered by your competitors. I don't usually adopt it right off, but if you don't have corporations and don't have lots of health resources, it isn't a bad option.

Police State is conditional. It only pays if I'm in a lot of wars, have lots of war weariness, and plan to stay at war. So while I often don't use it, when I do it comes in real handy.

All civics are a lot easier to use when you're Spiritual. Either that or the Cristo Redentor, and I find I use a much wider variety of civics.

I almost never use Caste System, Mercantilism, Slavery (I should though), Organized Religion & Pacifism.

State Property & Hereditary Rule are my absolute favourites, except in very small scale games. :cool:

Bureaucracy is the one civic I *almost* never use. Used it maybe a few times in BST as part of the whole 2 or 3 Corp HQ + Wall Street gold generation method.


Not sure what you mean here. I thought that Bureaucracy increased Commerce and Hammers in the capitol. The sliders turn commerce into gold and beakers, but something that produces beakers or gold directly, like shrines, HQ, specialists, Sankore, etc, aren't affected by Bureaucracy, as far as I remember.

My least use civic is definitely Environmentalism. The only time I've ever used it was in a OCC because I needed more health. One of Free Market or State Property will almost always be a much better choice, depending on the size of your empire.

I use Serfdom when I have a Spiritual leader, but mostly just because it's cheaper than Slavery, and has no negative events associated with it - not because the worker bonus is that exciting. Without a Spiritual leader I wouldn't bother with it though because of the cost of anarchy, along with losing the flexibility of poprushing units if I get declared on.

I never use Nationhood, although I think I might start using it for warmongering. Trading a single population point for 70-110 hammers worth of unit has to be worth something, and the extra :) from barracks helps compenstate for war weariness and drafting unhappiness. And there's the dandy new EP bonus. Seems like a solid civic, but I can never resist Free Speech. I'll have to learn to start using it more.

Nationhood. Most underrated civic ever?

I see Serfdom and Enviornmentalism are the least used here .

I guess it says something about people's playing styles and what kind of civ they run .
Lots of people like PHI trait and the SE , so caste system is an obvious choice . The other alternative is almost always slavery until later in the game .
STill , I've seen plenty of people manage to beeline to fuedalism and then use serfdom with vasslage . Serfdom can be very useful but often its overshadowed by even more useful civics of slavery and/or caste system .

Enviornmentalism comes way to late .

I usually run :

Gov : Representation or HR ( really it depends )
Legal: Vasslage (war) , mostly beauracracy ( peace)
Labor: Caste system
Economy : Mercantilism
Religion : shift between OR ( early game) , THeocracy ( war) , Pacificism ( peace)

Serfdom on the the Indian fast worker makes like a turboworker :D
Add Hagia Sophia to that and demnn..

But HS is a useless wonder to me 99% of the time .

State Property for me.

I'd take Representation + Mercantilism or Univesal Suffrage/Police State + Free Market any day. In fact, I don't think I've ever used State Property.

:O

You're missing the most gamebreaking civic in the game. And it's low upkeep.

Mine's Police State, it's simply not worth it.

:O

You're missing the most gamebreaking civic in the game. And it's low upkeep.

Mine's Police State, it's simply not worth it.

Diamondeye,

You are probably right. jkp1187 explained it to me, and I replied to him that I can only play the game on small maps or smaller due to my computer's limitations. This means I can win a game via Dominations with about 30 cities, or 20-22 high culture cities (though I'd probably win a Cultural victory before Domination that way.) Thirty cities without state property isn't too tough to manage if you do it properly. However on a Huge map, I imagine you'd need two times as many cities, thus making state property much more viable.

I almost never use Caste System, Mercantilism, Slavery (I should though), Organized Religion & Pacifism.

:eek: Bad boy.

Yes, you should. Slavery is a must. It's just too good not to use all the time.

:eek: Bad boy.

Yes, you should. Slavery is a must. It's just too good not to use all the time.

No.

Not in BtS. It's a medium upkeep civic with a really naster event that can ruin your game. It's worth it's cost, that's my analysis, but I'd rather stay on the lowupkeep civic without effect until Serfdom rolls around. And then Emancipation.

I agree, I tend to like serfdom to lessen my civic pocketbook. Plus it comes in around the time of CS so I have alot of farms to irrigate. Slavery is great but sometimes it isn't worth the hassle of slave revolts. There have been many games in BTS I just didn't have the spare time to gamble on if my cities would revolt or not over a civic.

Diamondeye,

You are probably right. jkp1187 explained it to me, and I replied to him that I can only play the game on small maps or smaller due to my computer's limitations. This means I can win a game via Dominations with about 30 cities, or 20-22 high culture cities (though I'd probably win a Cultural victory before Domination that way.) Thirty cities without state property isn't too tough to manage if you do it properly. However on a Huge map, I imagine you'd need two times as many cities, thus making state property much more viable.

Kesshi,

AFAIK, maintenance costs scale with map size, so the benefits of SP in the situation I described above would apply regardless of map size.

Again, you don't need to use SP to win consistently, but it can be very helpful when making a domination push, especially if you've missed out on the big name corporations.... I almost exclusively play on standard and (occasionally) small maps, for whatever that's worth.

Kesshi,

AFAIK, maintenance costs scale with map size, so the benefits of SP in the situation I described above would apply regardless of map size.

Again, you don't need to use SP to win consistently, but it can be very helpful when making a domination push, especially if you've missed out on the big name corporations.... I almost exclusively play on standard and (occasionally) small maps, for whatever that's worth.

State Property > effects of any two corps.

Kesshi,

AFAIK, maintenance costs scale with map size, so the benefits of SP in the situation I described above would apply regardless of map size.

Again, you don't need to use SP to win consistently, but it can be very helpful when making a domination push, especially if you've missed out on the big name corporations.... I almost exclusively play on standard and (occasionally) small maps, for whatever that's worth.

jkp1187,

If the maintenance costs scale with map size, do they take into account the fewer cities one will build on a smaller map? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Working under the assumption I am correct, if the distance cost were between 1 and 11 gold per city on the other side of the world, and I had 20 cities, that's 20 cities time 5 average, or 100 gold distance maintenance. Where as if you had the same distance cost but now you're on a larger map with 40 cities, that's now 200 gold distance maintenance. That is, assuming that maintenance costs scale for distance, but do not take into account the fact that fewer cities need to/can exists on a smaller map. Does anybody know if this is correct or not?

caste system or pacifism. i voted pacifism because i NEVER have used it. i once used caste system, but i never have since then and never will because it gives very little back, costs a lot, and because i always end up missing slavery. with spiritual leaders, i often rune serfdom (yes, serfdom) for a few turns while i develop a newly available resource, such as coal, oil or aluminum, which gets me cranking out planes, trains, and automobiles (tanks) sooner rather than later

I tend ALWAYS to use Representation, Free Speech, Emancipation, Environmentalism, Pacifism

I'm not understanding why there's not more votes for Caste system.

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd want a caste system in place when almost any other civic in it's tree is a better option (IMHO).

For someone who really likes the Caste system (or at least sees it's worth), please explain why I would want a caste system... I have an open mind, but for the life of me, it doesn't sound like anything useful or something I want compared to other systems.

No.

Not in BtS. It's a medium upkeep civic with a really naster event that can ruin your game. It's worth it's cost, that's my analysis, but I'd rather stay on the lowupkeep civic without effect until Serfdom rolls around. And then Emancipation.

The pros of whipping completely outweigh the cons, IMO. I just can't see not using it often. The risk is worth the reward for me, at least until Free Speech rolls around. Besides, I have yet to have a revolt that ruins my game. :D

I'm not understanding why there's not more votes for Caste system.

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd want a caste system in place when almost any other civic in it's tree is a better option (IMHO).

For someone who really likes the Caste system (or at least sees it's worth), please explain why I would want a caste system... I have an open mind, but for the life of me, it doesn't sound like anything useful or something I want compared to other systems.

I use Caste System for when I'm not doing much whipping, which is the whole point of Slavery. Which almost always happens to me...:crazyeye: :scan: :nuke:

I also revolt to Bureaucracy the minute I gain Civil Service. Why wouldn't anybody want to use Bureaucracy?:confused:

caste system is terrible, i dont know why so many people like it. probably because they're bad at civ

priests and engineers are the important early specialists, you only really need one or maybe two merchant specalist cities to keep you making a profit at 100 percent research and you can get them from marketplaces and grocery or whatever. all the scientists you'll ever need early game you can get from libraries, and if you're playing single player great library. artists are worthless, slave rush a temple instead

State Property for me.
The only civics I don't use much are State Property, Serfdom and Nationalism. I use Police State and Environmentalism alot.

State Property RULED in Vanilla and Warlords. But, no corporations at all with State Property in BtS. :(

In Vanilla and Warlords, you often got atleast +40 gold/turn with State Property.

I never use Vassalage though, and I like Free Religion because I dont get into wars based on religion then.

I'm not understanding why there's not more votes for Caste system.

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd want a caste system in place when almost any other civic in it's tree is a better option (IMHO).

For someone who really likes the Caste system (or at least sees it's worth), please explain why I would want a caste system... I have an open mind, but for the life of me, it doesn't sound like anything useful or something I want compared to other systems.

Wolfshanze,

One thing that I like to do every now and again is this combination: Representation + Caste System + Mercantism + Pacifism. This combination makes for wonderful Great Person farming. It works especially well on a Pangea or Inland Sea map in conjunction with the Statue of Liberty (+1 free specialist) for a grand total of 2 free specialists per city, and an unlimited amount of merchants, easily funding a mighty empire with just the free specialists alone without neglecting your science needs.

Each turn your specialist is producing great person points makes it more likely that you will get a specific great person. Often times I'll end up with far too many great prophets, and far too many wonders produce great prophet points. To offset this, I'll take another city and literally starve a great person out of it by forcing all of their workers to work as whichever great person I want. This can be useful if you need a specific great person (Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi, or a Great Artist to win the game, etc.) Remember that each time you build a great person in that city, the points needed to get to another great person are greatly increased, and some cities have their great person points saturated with far too many great prophet points to be worth trying to force anything else out of there.

It is also fun to play a game with OCC variant, but build only one production city (your main city) and build every other city as a GP city, and focus on Great Merchants. Put all of your great merchants into your capital, and see how high of a population you can get! I've ended up with a population 40 capital that had very few flood plains, and I'm sure others could get higher under more ideal conditions. :P

The game doesn't always have to be about winning, sometimes it's fun to just sit back and do something goofy while having a good time.

Wolfshanze,

One thing that I like to do every now and again is this combination: Representation + Caste System + Mercantism + Pacifism. This combination makes for wonderful Great Person farming. It works especially well on a Pangea or Inland Sea map in conjunction with the Statue of Liberty (+1 free specialist) for a grand total of 2 free specialists per city, and an unlimited amount of merchants, easily funding a mighty empire with just the free specialists alone without neglecting your science needs.

Each turn your specialist is producing great person points makes it more likely that you will get a specific great person. Often times I'll end up with far too many great prophets, and far too many wonders produce great prophet points. To offset this, I'll take another city and literally starve a great person out of it by forcing all of their workers to work as whichever great person I want. This can be useful if you need a specific great person (Great Merchant for Sid's Sushi, or a Great Artist to win the game, etc.) Remember that each time you build a great person in that city, the points needed to get to another great person are greatly increased, and some cities have their great person points saturated with far too many great prophet points to be worth trying to force anything else out of there.

It is also fun to play a game with OCC variant, but build only one production city (your main city) and build every other city as a GP city, and focus on Great Merchants. Put all of your great merchants into your capital, and see how high of a population you can get! I've ended up with a population 40 capital that had very few flood plains, and I'm sure others could get higher under more ideal conditions. :P

The game doesn't always have to be about winning, sometimes it's fun to just sit back and do something goofy while having a good time.

lol i called it

caste system is terrible, i dont know why so many people like it. probably because they're bad at civ

you can only effectivly great person farm in two or three cities tops, after that your most productive great person cities will be pumping out great people and sequentally raising the great person cost faster than less productive cities can catch up. your less productive "farm" cities will never be able to fill the ever-increasing gp bar in these conditions and never turn out great people. beside great person farm cities should be maximized for food production and if all your cities are all farm tile and none are cottages you'll advance too slow.

caste system is terrible, i dont know why so many people like it. probably because they're bad at civ

priests and engineers are the important early specialists, you only really need one or maybe two merchant specalist cities to keep you making a profit at 100 percent research and you can get them from marketplaces and grocery or whatever. all the scientists you'll ever need early game you can get from libraries, and if you're playing single player great library. artists are worthless, slave rush a temple instead

Do a search for "specialist economy". Caste System is massive, and not just for Philosophical and Spiritual leaders (for whom its use is pretty much mandatory).

My least-used is Serfdom, though it's fantastic with Spiritual after a big conquest, or when a new worker tech has come along (like Civil Service or Railroad). Generally, I'd rather just whip in a whole load more workers, though.
The other is Mercantilism. Good in bursts with Spiritual (with CS/pacifism etc), but once you get Astronomy those juicy intercontinental trade routes are just too good to pass up, and can often account for ~1/4 to 1/3 of my economy. Even with an SE, I'd rather have Free Market.

The other big-scorers in this poll are ones I use all the time (although I use Spiritual a lot :D). Police State is good when a big war is dragging on, and the anarchy for the switch barely matters when your commerce and production are all tied up by the massive unhappiness.
Nationhood is good for when you're attacked and need defenders in a hurry, but it's best when you combine it with Slavery and abuse the hell out of them both to whip/draft an entire massive offensive army in the blink of an eye. Sure, your people won't be returning your calls for a fair while, but that's okay because you'll have a lovely new empire's worth of people in the blink of an eye. Also, the no-upkeep is very nice and the barracks happiness is great.
Pacifism for the obvious reasons, and because the cost is nowhere near as high as everyone makes out.
And Environmentalism lets you spam factories and power everywhere during the industrial period where you don't yet have the health buildings to deal with it. Good for having factory buildings in those riverside cottagespam cities that have turned into production powerhouses with levees and Sufferage. Mining Inc still pretty much pays for itself, and it's overall cheaper than the Free Market+Sushi approach to the health problem (and you can still add sushi sparingly over the top where appropriate).

Not sure what you mean here. I thought that Bureaucracy increased Commerce and Hammers in the capitol. The sliders turn commerce into gold and beakers, but something that produces beakers or gold directly, like shrines, HQ, specialists, Sankore, etc, aren't affected by Bureaucracy, as far as I remember.

I assumed it was, but been awhile, and not something I really paid attention to.

Mercantilism for me. I'm a commerce whore, and no foreign trade route is the way to hell. It's good enough for autists like Toku, but come on, we're civilized persons. I just try to get the Democracy soon enough, build the Statue of Liberty and that's it, I have my free specialist in each town without losing all these juicy trade routes. If I don't get the Statue, well, I'll survive.

I don't use Caste system often. I don't need all these lazy guys doing nothing but singing all day, I need productive cities. I just try to grab the Great Library, and put excedent people as scientists, and that's it. Who needs artists and merchants ?

Environmentalism rocks. When like me you go to industrialisation soon enough, your cities start to smoke green, people die and get all smelly, and an enlightened ruler as I am can't accept that. I can take the +25% upkeep for the corporations if my people are healthy and happy, and celebrate their leader in one or two cities each turn (no upkeep cost).

I agree, I tend to like serfdom to lessen my civic pocketbook. Plus it comes in around the time of CS so I have alot of farms to irrigate. Slavery is great but sometimes it isn't worth the hassle of slave revolts. There have been many games in BTS I just didn't have the spare time to gamble on if my cities would revolt or not over a civic.

Running Bureaucracy at the same time as Slavery can also be bad for revolts since they seem to mostly happen in your capital. Maybe Firaxis was trying to curb the power on both civics.

I'm not sure I've ever seen or experienced a slave revolt occur anywhere other than a capital.

lol , I can't believe how much stink caste system got , frankly I'm shocked . :eek:

Obviously these are people who probably DO NOT run a SE and therefore do not realize the awesome power of the SE . :worship:

If your running your SE right , caste system is almost CHEATING , no I'm serious . Hey when you can run your beaker research down to 0% and still produce over 300 bpt in the classical/medieval era all the while taking in all the extra income , then you'd be singing a different tune . :thumbsup:

Generating :gp: much faster than other civs has many advantages . I'm not going to list them but I think we all know .

Well if you discount the first 30 turns of the game, my least used civic is Tribalism.

I would type here Environmentalism but UN forces me to use it... so the winner would be State Property. While I try to use atleast 2 corporations(Mining Inc and Sushi State Property would just cancel their values).

never use vassalage anymore, bureacracy is commonly much better IMHO

Well if you discount the first 30 turns of the game, my least used civic is Tribalism.
Haha.
Touche!

Running Bureaucracy at the same time as Slavery can also be bad for revolts since they seem to mostly happen in your capital. Maybe Firaxis was trying to curb the power on both civics.

I'm not sure I've ever seen or experienced a slave revolt occur anywhere other than a capital.

These are both good points on that matter. All I know is I have had revolts that have made a pretty big dent in my economy when they popped up.

From what I have been able to gather, I think that if you have alot of :) faces over :mad: ones, you are less likely to have a revolt. But I don't know for sure. All I know is all of my slave revolts have happened at :)=:mad: give or take 1-2 difference.

Great Poll :)

I never use Environmentalism as I see it profitalbe to chop down all the forests. I find it surprising though that Pacifism goes as number 3 here. I never play Philosophical without going for this civic.

I like Nationalism is how played out, the happiness is retty cool
But I neevr ever use Police State, I don't know why I understand why it is usful but always tought that having the extra happiness of Representation and Hereditary is much better
come to think of it I rarely use anything but Hereditary or representation

If you play a leader bent on war and build the pyraimids (having stone and/or being industrious), adapting a polic state early can give good results. +25% mil.units production is pretty awsome if that's what you mainly produce. You can always switch to something else at peace (her.rule gives all your units a good role)

I voted nationalism, because it comes only just before free speech, which is infinitely better. I'm not surprised that environmentalism is #1, but serfdom is #2? It's low maintenance, mildly helpful and well... that's it. Does everyone have some sort of slavery addiction or something. I hardly ever have enough food to sacrifice pop and I have tons of production. However I would like to do something with all those unhappy citizens ;)

I have a Caste System addiction (unless I am at war). I hate Slavery.

slavery. it used to be pacifism but i'm learning to like it.

Pacifism is weak, you have no maintance but if you have no troops then you get killed. If you have enough troops to defend yourself Pacifism will kill you. If you are on alone island... no montezuma, ragnar, boudica in game then maybe... also settler level is required.

Not entirely ontopic; Frosty, gratz with post 1000

Pacifism is weak, you have no maintance but if you have no troops then you get killed. If you have enough troops to defend yourself Pacifism will kill you. If you are on alone island... no montezuma, ragnar, boudica in game then maybe... also settler level is required.

Desert-Fox,

Did you see the game where somebody played as Gandhi on Emperor and built zero military units? I think the only military unit he had was his initial warrior, which went into the capital, after exploring, where he remained the entire game. He won the game, too. Pretty impressive, if you ask me!

Not every game needs to be about a hefty military force. In fact, many of the games I've won have been where I was involved in zero wars, and I usually play Monarch or Emperor. When you are in good graces of your neighbours, and planning for a peaceful win, Pacifism makes for a great civic paired up with Representation and Mercantilism. But, like all other civics, there is a time to use it and a time not to use it.

I find I can still have a good size military and adopt Pacificism . I really don't notice major costs for Pacificsm and since it has no upkeep it balances out .

jkp1187,

If the maintenance costs scale with map size, do they take into account the fewer cities one will build on a smaller map? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Working under the assumption I am correct, if the distance cost were between 1 and 11 gold per city on the other side of the world, and I had 20 cities, that's 20 cities time 5 average, or 100 gold distance maintenance. Where as if you had the same distance cost but now you're on a larger map with 40 cities, that's now 200 gold distance maintenance. That is, assuming that maintenance costs scale for distance, but do not take into account the fact that fewer cities need to/can exists on a smaller map. Does anybody know if this is correct or not?



EDIT: See this thread for a discussion:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=138473&highlight=maintenance+costs+scale

Of course, this thread is apparently about vanilla civ, and there were some adjustments since then, but it's worth a read...

Specifically, see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3595701&postcount=58).

city upkeep is related to map size.
i just checked WorldSize.xml file and found there're different upkeep discounts on different map sizes.
so i guess it would be easier to analyze city upkeep by modifying map size discount to 100%

(Sorry, enough thread hijacking from me on this, just wanted to make sure the question was addressed....)

Either Serfdom or Environmentalism, voted Environmentalism

lol- emacipation!

jk.

I say.. Pacifism (when NOT philo leader) or Enviro.

damn communism-no state property!

I usually use almost all in a given game, at some point at least, but often only because there's no other choice (e.g. Organised Religion I largely use because it's the only non-military option before Pacifism, similar with Buearocracy). Also many traits I'll only use in conjunction with each other... so Police State+Nationhood (or Vassalage)+Theocracy will (rarely) be side-to-side with Representation>Free Speech/whatever.

Serfdom for me. Cant believe Environmentalism has the most votes. I always use Environmentalism for the health boosts.

Why are so many killing Pacifism? I always run it, even when invading. Otherwise I wouldn't get a Great Person every 4 turns :mischief:
And I normally can afford the extra maintienance and run Science at at least 60%

Vassalage, Serfdom and Environmentalism are the three I considered.

Serfdom won....er lost...whatever.

If I'm spiritual I *might* use serfdom or vassalage for a short period. Vassalage is more likely, perhaps to enhance unit upgrades.

Environmentalism I only use very, very rarely if health is a huge issue after industrialization. I might actually use it less, but at least I consider it. Most games I play I don't even consider serfdom or vassalage. Wouldn't waste an anarchy on them for sure.

I picked mercatilism, but I could just as easily say environmentalism. I don't think I've used Police State or Pacifism more than once, and I rarely use Serfdom. I often use Caste System in combination with Representation; otherwise I use Slavery.

Pacifisms my favorite religion civic if I'm playing a game with many (preferebly all) of the following: Pyramids/Representation, Philosophical leader, lots of food, industrious/ lots of wonders, Mercantilism, Statue of Liberty, Golden Age, Parthenon.

Ahh... just writing that felt like the culmination of all my civ-playing dreams...

I don't use Nationalism much . Is it that useful?

Nope, unless you're being invaded and really need a military. You'll probably get more espionage and happiness with free speech and turning their sliders up.

Why are so many killing Pacifism? I always run it, even when invading. Otherwise I wouldn't get a Great Person every 4 turns :mischief:
And I normally can afford the extra maintienance and run Science at at least 60%

The higher maintenance for a military is what turns me away from Pacifism. I like Nationalism for its lack of upkeep costs, but I don't use it as often as Bureaucracy and Free Speech. I also rarely use the Caste System and Theocracy, for some reason. I'm not quite sure why for Theocracy, because I'm typically a warmongering maniac.

I use Pacifism all the time , especially during cultural victories . So that explains why maintenance are up .

What is your least used civic? For me, it's a tie between Environmentalism and Pacifism, but I vote Environmentalism, even though I myself am a kind of "Environmentalist".

I experiene exactly the same tie. Usually because of the race for the starship or desperate fight for survival late in the game. Of course, in BTS, Environmentalism might become an option with more late game variety..

but I have never used ANY of the following: Police State, Vassalage, Environmentalism, Theocracy.

Police State: If I'm in a war with heavy WW, I just make the adjustments to my culture spending. Why would I sacrifice the flexibility of gold-rushing and go through the anarchies (both to and out of police state)?

Vassalage: Actually, I remember using it once now. Back in my first few months of Civ4 I tried it. Much prefer Bureaucracy.

Environmentalism: Free Market or State Property instead.

Theocracy: Give me Org. Religion or Free Religion. I would not want to inhibit religion spread in my cities (unless there was a mechanic in play that made conflicting religions causing unhappiness).

EDIT: And Nationhood. Never used that either. Give me Bureaucracy or give me Free Speech.

The least used civic in each category is...

Government: Police State
Legal: Nationhood
Labor: Serfdom
Economy: Environmentalism
Religion: Pacifism

Some comments

Police State: I used to run this civic all the time, but now I almost never use it.
Nationhood: Why is everybody bashing this civic? I once used it to gain 22 Strength Infantry (I was being Kublai Khan, on Warlords), in exchange for 2 population, so that I could continue building infrastructure while still getting a fresh loads of troops. Then again... I myself only use it when I'm being an Aggressive leader and have a technology advantage (Ragnar, here we come!)
Serfdom: Good for recovering from a large-scale pillage of your lands, but if that happens, your pretty much losing anyway.:p
Environmentalism: The reason why people hate to those who ask, is that there is always a better civic to run. If you are pushing for Domination, State Property is a good bet (why is that civic getting bashed? I still use it until I can see that my economy is ready to live without it). If you're trying to launch a massive-scale corporation economy, Free Market will lower your costs. If nobody wants to sign Open Borders with you, Mercantilism can be okay (also if everybody is running Mercantilism and you're not dependent on foreign trade routes, or if a rival is dependent on trade routes with you and you can close them up without cancelling Open Borders). But Environmentalism INCREASES costs of those UNGODLY EXPENSIVE Corporations, and the Health and Happiness isn't worth it unless you need more Health and/or Happiness and you can't get any via other means. Did I mention that the Happiness is dependent on how many forest/jungles you have?
Pacifism: Strange that I don't run this civic, considering that I like Specialist Economies and tend to have only 1 unit guarding every city.:lol:

Serfdom is one of those civics that might look OK on paper, but the game never pans out in a way that makes it useful. At the point where it's available, my workers are onto pretty trivial stuff like roads in unimportant areas - there's nothing important left for them to do. All that's left after that is rails (and that doesn't take long) and repairs. Managing to clash with Slavery and Emancipation simply makes this civic a waste of space.

Enviromentalism does have its uses, and can actually play an important part in a corporation heavy strategy. The reason is simple - you can force the AIs into it permanently with the UN. If you've got AIs sitting in Stae Property (or flippling back to it every five turns), then you can't spam corporations to them. If there's enough of these, then forced enviromentalism can open enough new markets for your corporations to pay the extra costs and more. Plus the extra health is handy once the industrial buildings are around.

Nationalism is one I keep thinking is worth trying, but never get round to. Probably not a civic for long term use (compared to Free Speech), but worth it for some urgent military.

Police State is one I've only ever used once, when war weariness was crippling me.

The higher maintenance for a military is what turns me away from Pacifism. I like Nationalism for its lack of upkeep costs, but I don't use it as often as Bureaucracy and Free Speech. I also rarely use the Caste System and Theocracy, for some reason. I'm not quite sure why for Theocracy, because I'm typically a warmongering maniac.

You also mostly run CE, don't you? Pacifism's nice, especially when having a very large empire. It has No Maintienance and it really balances the extra Military maintienance out when you don't have Organized.

Here are the most used civics in each category.

Government: Universal Suffrage
Legal: Free Speech
Labor: Emancipation
Economy: Free Market
Religion: Organized Religion

Environmentalism. The other choices have amazing bonuses, and health with a few smiles just doesn't cut it. Relatively expensive, too.

that's why nobody important uses it IRL