Why can't I commit these in my game?

I want to use chemical and biological weapons along with nukes, I want to destroy a religious faction in my city, like the spanish inquisition. I want to commit haenous (sp?) war crimes against my enemies and those who betray me! Like the rape of belgium in WW! Anyone else feel this way?

inquisition would be nice

but that raping of Belgiums I am not so sure about ;p

I must admit I have thought of this before.

You can basically ethnically cleanse a whole continent by capturing enemy populations and then by using colonies turn them into a new race.

I would have expected some sort of negative diplo modifier for that one..

the game is supposed to fun to! If they include rape it will probably be the end of CIV. The game will be banned. You can also make an mod.

No one mentioned the sexual act of rape, that was not the context use of the word.

Why can't I commit these in my game?

I want to use chemical and biological weapons along with nukes, I want to destroy a religious faction in my city, like the spanish inquisition. I want to commit haenous (sp?) war crimes against my enemies and those who betray me! Like the rape of belgium in WW! Anyone else feel this way?

I would imagine that the diplomat modifiers would have to be like -10 or -15 for the victim and also very, very high for the friends of that Civ. I'm thinking of the continuing anger towards the acts committed by the Nazi's or the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

I guess that, in my opinion, use of extreme measures should have longstanding consequences.

I personally have no interest in committing "attrocities"...although, sometimes Monty makes me wanna..... :rolleyes:

I must admit I have thought of this before.

You can basically ethnically cleanse a whole continent by capturing enemy populations and then by using colonies turn them into a new race.

I would have expected some sort of negative diplo modifier for that one..

I'm also surprised that friends of the former country are able to become such fast friends with the new colony, too.

Similarly confusing to me is the way that I can, with tanks and infantry, take over a country protected with cavalry and riflemen, immediately create a colony and the former country suddenly emerges as a tank/infantry superpower... I mean if I took over country X today and put a puppet regime in power, then removed all of MY military forces, he would not suddenly have tanks and infantry roaming around...right? :crazyeye:

No one mentioned the sexual act of rape, that was not the context use of the word.

i read it wrong indeed but still if you include such thing as what the germans did to the jews the game will get a bann i think.

Well you can use nukes, poison water, and raze cities isn't that enough?

Lets see

Pillaging Towns down (what do you think is really happening)
Razing cities
Declaring Theocracy so unapproved religions are unable to spread
"Elimination" of war protesting population under certain governments with Jails
"reduction of rebellion chance" with troops present in a city.
Poisoning water supplies
Nukes
Bombarding populations untill they are no longer willing or able to assist in the defense of their city
Attacking the civilian shipping lines of those you are at peace with
Force your population to work so much they 'just aren't there anymore'

seems like a nice list of atrocities/war crimes/crimes against humanity to me

Maybe what's missing is a video insert showing the heaps of charred and mangled bodies etc...

Chemical/biological weapons weren't used enough in history to justify their inclusion.
I don't think water poisoning happened all that often either, as far as I'm aware. It's not that easy to effectively poison a city water supply.
I agree with OP though that there should be some way to eradicate a religion in a city, like the inquisition.

I agree with OP though that there should be some way to eradicate a religion in a city, like the inquisition.

I like the idea, but what would be the benefit of doing this? I mean from a game mechanic standpoint. I'm sure that this feature could be modded somehow, but why would you or the computer ever use it?

I like the idea, but what would be the benefit of doing this? I mean from a game mechanic standpoint. I'm sure that this feature could be modded somehow, but why would you or the computer ever use it?

Apostolic palace/denying an enemy money/"we will not fight with our brothers in the faith"/calls for conversion that give you diplo penalties when you refuse/denying an enemy the espionage discount/making it easier to spread different religions to the city, etc

Perhaps not strong reasons, but could be worth considering :p

I would love to be able to remove 'other' religions, to remove their influence.

Inquisitors would have a much bigger impact in online play than against the AI although Isabella is pretty good about nabbing several religions in her capital - she rarely lasts long enough to get Wall Street if she's on my continent though

See, I think it would be cool if having multiple religions in a city prior to free religion would cause some level of unhappiness. Then it would make sense to build inquisitors and maybe even close boarders - adds value to Theocracy and the golden Buddhist wonder that I can't remember the name of.

Edit: I would love to mod this, but I have no idea how - I think doing something like this would require editing deeper that just the XML's... not only that, but to teach the AI how to use it correctly is beyond my modding ability.

I want seals along the coast my warriors can club to death.

I would like to be able to create a mandate in a weak civ, and then horde all the people of specific religion to that mandate, and then allow that mandate to ethnic cleanse all the natives in that civ, forcing them to seek refuge in other civs borders, which will spark -10 tensions in diplomacy.

You can destroy religions though... I've done it in a few of my games. Yes, it takes a lot of warmongering and time, but it it possible. Attack every city that has the religion in it, raze the cities, find the holy city and raze it too... next thing you know any one of the religions you chose to eliminate is gone. They do not come back either.

Lets see

Pillaging Towns down (what do you think is really happening)
Razing cities
Declaring Theocracy so unapproved religions are unable to spread
"Elimination" of war protesting population under certain governments with Jails
"reduction of rebellion chance" with troops present in a city.
Poisoning water supplies
Nukes
Bombarding populations untill they are no longer willing or able to assist in the defense of their city
Attacking the civilian shipping lines of those you are at peace with
Force your population to work so much they 'just aren't there anymore'

seems like a nice list of atrocities/war crimes/crimes against humanity to me

As Krikkitone, has already pointed out these things are already there in some maner or another.
The other point I would have to bring out is that while everyone seems to want to bring out an inquisitor type unit to remove religion, I would have to say from a game stand point you already have the ability to prevent spread of a religion to you via planning, (having a missionary with yoru settler when you send it out, heck remember they both move at 2 MP) and theocracy later in the game to prevent spread. If it is present in an opposing city you have the option to capture said city and raze it.
. As the game based reasons for this are to deny for example an AP victory resolution, or deny them shrine income I can see why people wnat this but you have strategic ways of doing this already.

From another stand point while I hate to intrude reality into the discusion the inquisition failed, every iteration of them that I have ever read about from roman or greek times on foward has failed, once a religion is somewhere it will either be slowly(very very slowly have people converted away from it ususaly due to intermarige or by co-opting the religious holidays that already existed into your own religion etc, not forcibly...) or an inquisition will simply send the practitioners of the religion underground for a time, they are still there just hiding and then they will resurface when hunt for them dies down.

If you want to play the religious zelot you can raze away all their cities and use theocracy a lot, heavens know I do sometimes in my games. :lol:
But it should NOT be easy at all to get rid of a religion from your city once it takes root, at least in my humble opinion.

I would like to be able to create a mandate in a weak civ, and then horde all the people of specific religion to that mandate, and then allow that mandate to ethnic cleanse all the natives in that civ, forcing them to seek refuge in other civs borders, which will spark -10 tensions in diplomacy.

Are you by any chance making a reference to the zionist invasion of palestine? If so I am with you. I would rather it happened in a game than as it did in real life.

city razing can include all of the atrocities.

The other point I would have to bring out is that while everyone seems to want to bring out an inquisitor type unit to remove religion, I would have to say from a game stand point you already have the ability to prevent spread of a religion to you via planning, (having a missionary with yoru settler when you send it out, heck remember they both move at 2 MP) and theocracy later in the game to prevent spread.

not exactly. in BtS someone can use spies to swap you out of theocracy (i've done it). even if that doesn't happen, there are random events/quest rewards that can spread one person's state religion to a few of another person's cities. that event spread can happen even in cities that have a religion already, and even to a civ running theocracy. so in BtS there's no longer a guarantee, no matter how careful you are.

Lets see

Pillaging Towns down (what do you think is really happening)
Razing cities
Declaring Theocracy so unapproved religions are unable to spread
"Elimination" of war protesting population under certain governments with Jails
"reduction of rebellion chance" with troops present in a city.
Poisoning water supplies
Nukes
Bombarding populations untill they are no longer willing or able to assist in the defense of their city
Attacking the civilian shipping lines of those you are at peace with
Force your population to work so much they 'just aren't there anymore'

seems like a nice list of atrocities/war crimes/crimes against humanity to me

I just wish there were some negative consequences to these actions. I know if getting caught spying is one thing, but getting caught poisoning a town should really hurt.

Razing a city is a war crime! I mean where have all the inhabitants gone to?
-Hell

Pillaging, plundering and razing cities all seem to fall into the atrocities/war crimes category, add to that the espionage/terrorist missions your spies can undertake and I think you've got all you need to act like any number of real life tyrants in Civ. Build up a nuclear arsenal and you can eradicate whoever you want, isn't that enough?

I just completed an inquisition mod with a religious victory condition. Check my sig.

I would love to be able to remove 'other' religions, to remove their influence.

I would like to see this with the existing missionaries. If you keep flooding a city with missionaries of religion X, then religion X is practiced by more and more of the population until eventually the other religions don't exist in that city. You could have modifiers in there for existing buildings, like existing temples of the other religions will slow the rate of X, but will eventually be destroyed.. Also, once you get the religion X's influence high enough, any other religion can not enter the city.

The downside of this is that civics like free religion won't be as strong since you can spread other religions to this city. Perhaps temples and "cathedral" type buildings will have double the effect.

You could tie this to Slavery as well. As you whip the population, a majority of the population will be from the minority religion(s).

You can raze cities, this is similar to the idea of cleansing. I'd like some kind of half-way house option though - like slaughtering most of the population without wiping out the city altogether.

Please keep it on topic and leave the real life debates out of it. If you wish to discuss that topic, than I suggest doing it in the Off-Topic forum (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18). OT posts removed.

There should be a UN resolution: denounce (that civ) for war crimes. Effect: all trade contact between that civ and others is suspended for five turns, or something like that.

On religions I propose one rather realistic approach. When a missionary is sent to a city already having religion in case of success there should be high possibility that religions having no religious buildings in that city will be erased.
When there are religious buildings then:
if there is temple, there is smaller possibility that temple is destroyed and religion is gone
if there is monastery, probability is even more smaller (like 1-2%)
if there is cathedral/holy shrine then no religion razing.
Same should apply to capturing cities when you have theocracy. There should be 3 options: raze the city, install new governor, raze religion and install your religion (costs you have are unhappiness, probably some gold loss, and population loss - all depending on religious buildings in the city).
That is my religion idea:)

not exactly. in BtS someone can use spies to swap you out of theocracy (i've done it). even if that doesn't happen, there are random events/quest rewards that can spread one person's state religion to a few of another person's cities. that event spread can happen even in cities that have a religion already, and even to a civ running theocracy. so in BtS there's no longer a guarantee, no matter how careful you are.

Good Points I tend to forget about the quests since in my games I seem to get them very rarely for some reason, just unlucky I guess.
As to the espionage influencing civics I tend to forget about that one as I do not use it (I probably should would make some situations a lot easier)

In general though you can still play a religious zelot just fine for the most part. I do it quite frequently to deprive the AI of shrine income and to try and maximize my shrine income. And despite the desire for an inquisitor unit for most folks I personaly am glad that it is not something that is in the native game, as I think it makes being a zelot something you have to consider carefully. If I go around razing oponet cities to then found one with my religion then I get that hefty - for you raise our city or multiples of it if I do it more than once, garunteeing that person will for the most part be my enemy forever.

If folks would like it as it seems there isa mod it will add it have at it but it's not something for me. :p

Good Points I tend to forget about the quests since in my games I seem to get them very rarely for some reason, just unlucky I guess.
As to the espionage influencing civics I tend to forget about that one as I do not use it (I probably should would make some situations a lot easier)

In general though you can still play a religious zelot just fine for the most part. I do it quite frequently to deprive the AI of shrine income and to try and maximize my shrine income. And despite the desire for an inquisitor unit for most folks I personaly am glad that it is not something that is in the native game, as I think it makes being a zelot something you have to consider carefully. If I go around razing oponet cities to then found one with my religion then I get that hefty - for you raise our city or multiples of it if I do it more than once, garunteeing that person will for the most part be my enemy forever.

If folks would like it as it seems there isa mod it will add it have at it but it's not something for me. :p

In my inquisition mod you get -1 diplo from all leaders of removed religions each time inquisitor is used.

I would like to be able to capture cities and turn their people into your own.

In my inquisition mod you get -1 diplo from all leaders of removed religions each time inquisitor is used.

In your mod, does the computer know how to use inquisitors effectively?

In your mod, does the computer know how to use inquisitors effectively?

They know how to use them, but I haven't done enough testing yet to know how effectively they use them.

They know how to use them, but I haven't done enough testing yet to know how effectively they use them.

I guess what I'm asking is if you edited the AI at all for this feature. I don't think the default AI would know how to effectively use them. One thing I've noticed personally about modding that I've done is that a lot of the special buildings/units that I make end up being a real advantage to the human player because the AI doesn't know how to use them, and I don't really know how to modify the AI.

For example, I created a raider unit that functions kind of like a privateer on land - it couldn't blockade of corse, and it couldn't take cities, but because it has hidden nationality, it could be used to freely pilliage your neighbors lands. It was a fun unit, but I couldn't get the AI to understand that you didn't need to be at war with the Civ that you're pillaging - it would only use it to compliment SoD's and pillage after declaring war... kind of defeats the purpose of having a hidden nationality.

I guess what I'm asking is if you edited the AI at all for this feature. I don't think the default AI would know how to effectively use them. One thing I've noticed personally about modding that I've done is that a lot of the special buildings/units that I make end up being a real advantage to the human player because the AI doesn't know how to use them, and I don't really know how to modify the AI.

Yes, there is edited AI for this unit. I don't really do AI myself but I pulled the AI code for this unit out of the Gods of Old mod that came with BTS. :cool:

Yes, there is edited AI for this unit. I don't really do AI myself but I pulled the AI code for this unit out of the Gods of Old mod that came with BTS. :cool:

Oh nice - that was a smart idea :goodjob:

Silence101: Land units with hidden nationality are used in the Fall From Heaven mod, perhaps you should take a look in the code there and see if you can use it for your raider unit. The mercenary unit would be a good place to start.

More on topic, I tend to agree with others that atrocities are part of what goes on in the game already. Pillaging food sources and burning homes along with the wholesale depopulation of major cities definitely covers what most reasonable people would consider atrocities. Do you really think that's all they are doing after all? Then you have the acts of terrorism, or espionage as Civ likes to call it. Other than adding chemical weapons to have those at your disposal, you should already have all the tools you need to become the most hated war criminal in the history of the world should you choose to do so.

If you want a pure race with one religion and a lack of rights for people run Police state, and Theocracy, Burn cities that are not yours and found a city on top of the ashes, sack towns, research genetics so now all your babies will remove all racial imperfections. Its impossible to wipe out a religion completely since they usually find a way to survive. Look at the Jews they've been persecuted over and over again and still follow their faith. If you really want to either draft or whip those few cities so the survivors are few and miserable.

Biological weapons could work. I'd call it "spread plague." With a chance it could spread back to your cities.

SMAC had some great atrocities. I've been thinking of implementing SMAC-style atrocities, such as assassination, chemical and biological warfare, Planetbusters, etc.

Civ IV is way too kid-friendly.

then play call to power 1/2

they had some nice special units

Are you by any chance making a reference to the zionist invasion of palestine? If so I am with you. I would rather it happened in a game than as it did in real life.

lol man, you blew his cover! It's called subtlety.:p

Silence101: Land units with hidden nationality are used in the Fall From Heaven mod, perhaps you should take a look in the code there and see if you can use it for your raider unit. The mercenary unit would be a good place to start.


I'll look it over - thanks for the info.

Razing a city is a war crime! I mean where have all the inhabitants gone to?
-Hell

I'd like to see maybe 2/3 of the population of the razed city distributed to nearby allied and neutral cities as refugees, along with a chance for those refugees to bring along their religion, technology, and/or culture.

To model this in the game mechanics, I'd have razing a city spawn spies and missionaries (of the razed city's religion) in (and allied to) nearby allied and neutral cities, I'd even have 2/3 of the great people points in the razed city distributed to nearby friendly or neutral cities.

Sometimes refugees make a great contribution to their new homes, other times they overwhelm the infrastructure. Dumping an additional two or three population all at once into a CIV city would have a similar effect.

Its impossible to wipe out a religion completely since they usually find a way to survive. Look at the Jews they've been persecuted over and over again and still follow their faith.

Well, it is possible to destroy a religion and has been done. Don't see many followers of Zeus or Apollo running around, and today's druids really have no idea what the original Druids believed or practiced. These religions didn't "die natural deaths", they were systematically destroyed in Europe by centuries of Christian assimilation and persecution.

I would contend that any mechanism proposed to persecute a religion also have the strong possibility to multiply it instead. Sure drive them out of one of your cities-- but that would only make them pop up in two others. And the first time a player clicked on the persecute button, all positive benefits from that religion should be curtailed for that player's empire.

Any mechanism to persecute a religion in the game should realisticly have so many negative consequences that it should also serve as a productive mechanism to spread that same religion. Which would make it counterproductive, or-- at best-- very risky. It should take 100s of turns even if you can eventually do it. In short-- it would completely change the nature of the game.

ditchhook- I like where you are going with this. It's not a bad idea. You could have a razing spawn an event that gives you the option to dictate what happens to the refugees.

-They could join the city in a productive way as you say (receive pluses in whatever areas for so many turns)

-They could be turned into workers (receive 1 worker)

-Pay gold and there's a percentage chance you will receive a great person. (self explanatory)

It might make it easier to develop into the game if you try.

Before the Cristo Redentor nerf, I loved to use it to constantly kill captured city population/anyone who wasn't happy with their evil dictator.