Hello Everyone,

This thread was inspired by the "least favourite civic" thread. I felt the need to post a love post about the civic Slavery. I love Slavery. There's no other way to say it. It is easily my favourite civic, and sometimes I will play the entire game using Slavery.

However, I do not go mindlessly whipping. I have a few rules about when I will and will not whip.

Old Slavery Rule #1 I will not whip my citizens when they are 1 or 2 turns away from growing.
New Slavery Rule #1 I will whip my cities when they reach optimum food levels for whipping. (See below.)
Slavery Rule #2 I will not whip my citizens if I am only taking away 1 population.
Slavery Rule #3 I will not whip my citizens down below a city size of 2.
Slavery Rule #4 I will not whip my citizens down to a point where they cannot work on tiles with resources.

Of course the exceptions come into play all the time, but I've found that using these few rules, I can keep my cities to a moderate size, keeping my commerce at a moderate level, while continuing to whip out an army to take over the world.

Do you use Slavery? If so, what are your rules for when to whip and when not to whip?

I whip them when they get angry, or if an important thing needs to be built

I generally follow your rule #1. Only desperate situations cause for me to break that rule.

I break all the others. For instance, if I am not creative, I whip monuments as soon as they hit 2 population.

I whip whenever a city is unhappy.
I whip whenever a city is starving.
In fact, I've whipped units out to the point at which not one single citizen working. At that point, I'm tempted to whip another unit, to get rid of all the angry people. My iron fist lovingly chokes the life out of my citizens, keeping them safe from foreign threats and changing social trends.

Long live the despot!

Hello Everyone,

This thread was inspired by the "least favourite civic" thread. I felt the need to post a love post about the civic Slavery. I love Slavery. There's no other way to say it. It is easily my favourite civic, and sometimes I will play the entire game using Slavery.

However, I do not go mindlessly whipping. I have a few rules about when I will and will not whip.

Slavery Rule #1 I will not whip my citizens when they are 1 or 2 turns away from growing.
Slavery Rule #2 I will not whip my citizens if I am only taking away 1 population.
Slavery Rule #3 I will not whip my citizens down below a city size of 2.
Slavery Rule #4 I will not whip my citizens down to a point where they cannot work on tiles with resources.

Of course the exceptions come into play all the time, but I've found that using these few rules, I can keep my cities to a moderate size, keeping my commerce at a moderate level, while continuing to whip out an army to take over the world.

Do you use Slavery? If so, what are your rules for when to whip and when not to whip?

I like playing a specialist econony so I grab caste system as soon as possible . Instead of directly whipping them like slavery , I end up ' caste whipping ' them and appoint a crap load of specialists until my city starves down to its max size based on health , food , and/or happiness. Its a nice way to get GPs faster :P
But in teh very early game , before I get CS , I Like slavery and whip out some much needed buildings or units . But I don't use it all that much .

Hello Everyone,
I love Slavery. There's no other way to say it.

Do you use Slavery? If so, what are your rules for when to whip and when not to whip?

If this was a forum about anything other than Civ, and you were talking about anything over than a civic, I don't think people would respond at all well to this thread :lol:

If this was a forum about anything other than Civ, and you were talking about anything over than a civic, I don't think people would respond at all well to this thread :lol:

Uberfrog,

If not a civic, couldn't I also be speaking about my hard drive setup? ;)

Uberfrog,

If not a civic, couldn't I also be speaking about my hard drive setup? ;)

Perhaps, but I'm not sure whipping it is going to do your computer much good...

Perhaps, but I'm not sure whipping it is going to do your computer much good...

"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
- Steve Wozniak

;)

Slavery Rule #1 I will not whip my citizens when they are 1 or 2 turns away from growing.

If you whip the city right after growing or on that next population point, then you're wasting food.

Epic Speed. City has +3 :food: for growth.

Example 1: Whip after growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (Pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (Pop 5)
Turn 02: 0/48 (Pop 6); Whip to Pop 4 (0/42)
Turn 16: 0/45 (Pop 5)

Example 2: Whip before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (Pop 5); Whip to Pop 3 (39/39)
Turn 01: 3/42 (Pop 4)
Turn 14: 0/45 (Pop 5)

The larger your population, the less effective your :whipped: becomes.

Slavery Rule #2 I will not whip my citizens if I am only taking away 1 population.

What about whipping military units under HR or when whipping the Globe Theatre city?

What about whipping the first Warrior/Worker?

Slavery Rule #3 I will not whip my citizens down below a city size of 2.

What about when whipping the first Warrior/Worker?

Slavery Rule #4 I will not whip my citizens down to a point where they cannot work on tiles with resources.

:agree:

If you whip the city right after growing or on that next population point, then you're wasting food.

Epic Speed. City has +3 :food: for growth.

Example 1: Whip after growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (Pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (Pop 5)
Turn 02: 0/48 (Pop 6); Whip to Pop 4 (0/42)
Turn 16: 0/45 (Pop 5)

Example 2: Whip before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (Pop 5); Whip to Pop 3 (39/39)
Turn 01: 3/42 (Pop 4)
Turn 14: 0/45 (Pop 5)

OTAKUjbski,

You are correct, however you are only looking at whipping without a granary. It's a safe bet to assume that most people will have pottery and granaries most of the game. This significantly changes things. Letting a city grow for 1-2 more turns permits 1-2 more turns of production (reducing the whipping need) as well as produces more commerce where available.

The larger your population, the less effective your :whipped: becomes.

Definitely true.

What about whipping military units under HR or when whipping the Globe Theatre city?

What about whipping the first Warrior/Worker?

What about when whipping the first Warrior/Worker?

Of course there are exceptions. Every rule was made to be broken. ;) I often find myself breaking these rules on single-square island cities with no fish and/or clams. These can make excellent commerce cities, but typically require a whipping down to 1 for a lighthouse, and a whipping down to 1 for a granary before I even get started on +gold buildings.

I guess I should have said guidelines instead of rules, hunh?

Ah good point. But this isn't the case if growing to pop 5 instead of 6 in the example is it? As you are not going up in "whippable" population.

Or are you referring to you should whip when your food stores are enough to grow in population again. for instance 39/39 in example 2? Thus if you are going to whip down to a population of 2 you should make sure you have 35 food in stores?

Additionally in your example you don't mention that in example 1, you are whipping away 3 citizens thus getting more production from whipping. Plus added turns where hammers are applied to the production queue. And in example 2 you are only getting to use 2 citizens for production, and less turns where hammers are being applied to the production queue.
So while example 1 may look like all that food is gone, you do not mention the extra hammers that it makes over option 2.

I don't use the whip often in every city, only in those that grow very fast, those that tend to grow over the happy or health cap. Once caste system and guilds have been invented, I will usually switch to caste system + workshops for my productivity.

I will usually use the whip as early as possible to whip a granary. This can be at size 2 when that is possible (especially with expansive leaders) or later when there is not enough whipping power at size 2. This will double the growth rate of the city and it is best to do that as early as possible. When you're (heavily) using the whip, then growth is production and thus building the granary is effectively doubling your whipping productivity.

I also tend to whip the lighthouse very early in cities that rely on coastal food resources and other coastal tiles. The normal production rate in such cities is very slow and whipping is the best way to get such a crucial building as fast as possible.

For the rest, I tend to use the whip in cities that are about to go over their health/happy cap, so I whip those in the turn before they grow. In this way, you get maximum productivity from whipping compared to whipping just after the city has grown over the health/happy cap. (this has to do with the fact that it takes less food to grow at a lower city size) In cities that don't need the production, I tend to use the whip just after they have grown into unhappiness/unhealthiness. In that way, you can use a single tile more at some moments during regrowth which usually means a bit more commerce production in my city.

I usually whip for 2 or more citizens in most cities. In that way, the whipping unhappiness can disappear while the city regrows.
I usually will not whip while whipping unhappiness still exists, but there are exceptions.

Agree with OTAKUjbski as usual, although I'm not using Slavery that much, see Least Favorite Civic thread for reason.

You are correct, however you are only looking at whipping without a granary. It's a safe bet to assume that most people will have pottery and granaries most of the game. This significantly changes things. Letting a city grow for 1-2 more turns permits 1-2 more turns of production (reducing the whipping need) as well as produces more commerce where available.

Actually, it still applies. The Granary simply reduces the ineffeciency by 50%.

Epic Speed. +3 food to growth.

Example 1; Whip after growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (pop 5)
Turn 02: 24/48 (pop 6) -> 24/42 (pop 4)
Turn 03: 27/42 (pop 4)
Turn 08: 22/45 (pop 5)

Example 2; Whip before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5) -> 39/39 (pop 3)
Turn 01: 24/42 (pop 4)
Turn 02: 27/42 (pop4)
Turn 07: 22/45 (pop 5)

Example 3; Whip 1 turn before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (pop 5) -> 42/39 (pop 3)
Turn 02: 27/42 (pop 4)
Turn 07: 22/45 (pop 5)
I think the only time this becomes situational is when the amount of +:food: you have to commit to growth is higher at a larger population than at the smaller population. However, this isn't a common situation and is also a situation in which you typically don't want to whip.

I guess I should have said guidelines instead of rules, hunh?

I think that's everything in Civ4. I can't tell you how many of my 'laws' I've had broken in this game ... I love it.

Ah good point. But this isn't the case if growing to pop 5 instead of 6 in the example is it? As you are not going up in "whippable" population.

If your goal in growing to pop 6 was so you could whip 3 population points, then the logic doesn't apply, because you have to grow to 6 to whip 3 population points. From that point on, the logic would apply when considering whipping @ 6 before growing to 7 or whipping right after, since both can whip for 3.

Or are you referring to you should whip when your food stores are enough to grow in population again. for instance 39/39 in example 2? Thus if you are going to whip down to a population of 2 you should make sure you have 35 food in stores?

It would actually work out the same even if you had 42/39, 45/39, etc. Basically, if you intend to whip, you want to do so at the lowest population possible.

Whipping 2 population is more effecient at 4 pop than at 5 pop (or larger).
Whipping 3 population is more effecient at 6 pop than at 7 pop (or larger).

Population point 3 (39F) + population point 4 (42F) = 81 :food:
90P / 81F = 1.111 :hammers: per :food:.

Population point 4 (42F) + population point 5 (45F) = 87 :food:
90P / 87F = 1.034 :hammers: per :food:.

Even with a Granary:

Population point 3 (19F) + population point 4 (21F) = 40 :food:
90P / 40F = 2.250 :hammers: per :food:.

Population point 4 (21F) + population point 5 (22F) = 43 :food:
90P / 43F = 2.093 :hammers: per :food:.

Additionally in your example you don't mention that in example 1, you are whipping away 3 citizens thus getting more production from whipping. Plus added turns where hammers are applied to the production queue. And in example 2 you are only getting to use 2 citizens for production, and less turns where hammers are being applied to the production queue.
So while example 1 may look like all that food is gone, you do not mention the extra hammers that it makes over option 2.

Both examples whip only 2 population (either 6 -> 4 or 5 -> 3).

If working the tiles for the extra turn results in higher production than the exchange rate on whipping, then you probably shouldn't be whipping at all.

In most cases, the exchange rate on Food:Production is fairly high and justifies whipping ASAP.

Just for reference, at an exchange rate of 1.5F:1P, an unimproved Flood Plains yields as much production as a Grassland Hill Mine if both are used similarly for growth/whipping/production.

For the rest, I tend to use the whip in cities that are about to go over their health/happy cap, so I whip those in the turn before they grow. In this way, you get maximum productivity from whipping compared to whipping just after the city has grown over the health/happy cap. (this has to do with the fact that it takes less food to grow at a lower city size) In cities that don't need the production, I tend to use the whip just after they have grown into unhappiness/unhealthiness. In that way, you can use a single tile more at some moments during regrowth which usually means a bit more commerce production in my city.

Most of the Civ math I've learned and still use was learned from Roland's posts. I trust his math like a bible.

I was always under the impression that whipping from pop 4 to 3 was the best way to utilize slavery as a matter of food for work ratios goes.

Actually, it still applies. The Granary simply reduces the ineffeciency by 50%.

Epic Speed. +3 food to growth.

Example 1; Whip after growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (pop 5)
Turn 02: 24/48 (pop 6) -> 24/42 (pop 4)
Turn 03: 27/42 (pop 4)
Turn 08: 22/45 (pop 5)

Example 2; Whip before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5) -> 39/39 (pop 3)
Turn 01: 24/42 (pop 4)
Turn 02: 27/42 (pop4)
Turn 07: 22/45 (pop 5)

Example 3; Whip 1 turn before growth:

Turn 00: 39/45 (pop 5)
Turn 01: 42/45 (pop 5) -> 42/39 (pop 3)
Turn 02: 27/42 (pop 4)
Turn 07: 22/45 (pop 5)
I think the only time this becomes situational is when the amount of +:food: you have to commit to growth is higher at a larger population than at the smaller population. However, this isn't a common situation and is also a situation in which you typically don't want to whip.

OTAKUjbski,

That's an interesting way to look at it... I like it! I'll have to play around with it a bit. Though this does require a more micromanagement. Not that I'm against micromanagement, not at all. I will need to learn where the growth numbers are. Is there a formula or a table that shows city size vs food needed to grow somewhere?

Thank you, OTAKUjbski, for showing me where I can improve. I appreciate the information and advice. :)

I'm teaching my daughter how to play this game on the low levels and I find it very odd telling here about how great slavery is.

That's an interesting way to look at it... I like it! I'll have to play around with it a bit. Though this does require a more micromanagement. Not that I'm against micromanagement, not at all. I will need to learn where the growth numbers are. Is there a formula or a table that shows city size vs food needed to grow somewhere?

The amount of food needed to grow varies per game speed:

EDIT: My formula was only correct at Normal and Epic. Below is the correct formula.

Food needed for growth to next city size:
(20 + city size * 2) * Game speed modifier

Example: city size 12 at epic game speed: (20 + 12 * 2) * 1.5 = 66 food

The game speed modifiers are:
Quick: 0.67
Normal: 1.00
Epic: 1.50
Marathon: 3.00

The general rule of thumb, though is just to make sure you whip 1 turn before growth or earlier.

Thank you, OTAKUjbski, for showing me where I can improve. I appreciate the information and advice. :)

I owe about 92% of what I've learned to these forums. Pass the knowledge on when you're done with it. ;)

I was always under the impression that whipping from pop 4 to 3 was the best way to utilize slavery as a matter of food for work ratios goes.

Merkinball,

While whipping from 4 to 3 has its uses, there is often a problem with whipping away only only 1 population point at a time. Starting with 0 slavery unhappiness, whipping away 1 pop. point nets you 10 turns of 1 unhappiness. Starting with 0 slavery unhappiness, whipping away 7 pop. points nets you 10 turns of 1 unhappiness. You get more bang for your unhappiness. If you constantly whip away 1 citizen, your happiness will eventually catch up to you. The Sacrificial Altar can be of a big help in this case, but it is still something you should try to avoid. (There are always exceptions!)

Also, from 4 to 3 is very situational. How many flood plains do you have? How many irrigated rice do you have? What about fish or clam? If you have 2 fish, 1 clam, and 1 rice, your might want to stick to whipping from a size 5 or 6 down to a 3 or 4 and back again. However if you have two flood plains and the rest are grassland hills, you might be better off whipping from 3 to 2, or even not whipping at all.

Just like everything else in Civ, the best way to approach slavery is to analyze the situation and react accordingly.

The general rule of thumb, though is just to make sure you whip 1 turn before growth or earlier.

OTAKUjbski,

Aren't you always 1 turn before grown or earlier? :confused:


Just kidding :lol: I understand what you mean.

Thanks again for the info. I really appreciate it.

I owe about 92% of what I've learned to these forums. Pass the knowledge on when you're done with it. ;)

You can count on it! :goodjob:

Most of the Civ math I've learned and still use was learned from Roland's posts. I trust his math like a bible.

Wow, thanks for the compliment. :)

Hmm, at least if you're a Christian... ;)

A bit of topic, you started a thread about corporation mechanics a while ago with a first post that contained a lot of interesting information. Especially, the formula that described the maintenance cost of a corporation was interesting. (I tend to like an exact representation of game mechanics.) Do you know whether this formula or other things concerning corporations has changed since the 3.13 patch?

OTAKUjbski,

That's an interesting way to look at it... I like it! I'll have to play around with it a bit. Though this does require a more micromanagement. Not that I'm against micromanagement, not at all. I will need to learn where the growth numbers are. Is there a formula or a table that shows city size vs food needed to grow somewhere?

Thank you, OTAKUjbski, for showing me where I can improve. I appreciate the information and advice. :)

Food needed for growth to next city size:
(20 + city size * 2) * Game speed modifier

Example: city size 12 at epic game speed: (20 + 12 * 2) * 1.5 = 66 food

A fully filled granary stores half the maximum amount of food in storage of the previous city size rounded down.

Example: When the city in the previous example with granary grows to size 13, then it will start at size 13 with 33 out of 69 food (plus any food overflow from growing to the next size).

A granary starts filling from the moment that it has been created at the same speed that the normal food box fills.

Example: The city of the first example builds the granary when at size 12 (a bit late I know) and at 56/66 food. It will only start at 10 out of 69 food when it grows to size 13 because it will only take 10 food to grow to size 13 and thus the granary will be filled with only 10 food when the city grows.

my rule:
except in extreme cases, or when you are trying to cut population on an oversize city, never whip on the first turn of production. (you pay more pop per hammer on the first turn)

Wow, thanks for the compliment. :)

Hmm, at least if you're a Christian... ;)

Nah ... 'bible' was all lowercase. Bible would be a different story. ;)

4. (lowercase) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible.

But yeah ... your War Academy articles on Unit Maintenance and Civic upkeep were a huge step towards me understanding how to manage an ever-expanding empire.

A bit of topic, you started a thread about corporation mechanics a while ago with a first post that contained a lot of interesting information. Especially, the formula that described the maintenance cost of a corporation was interesting. (I tend to like an exact representation of game mechanics.) Do you know whether this formula or other things concerning corporations has changed since the 3.13 patch?

It has changed, and I haven't gone back to update it yet. Maybe I'll do that tonight after Heroes (http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/).

Food needed for growth to next city size:
(20 + city size * 2) * Game speed modifier

Really? Is that the same as: ?

Marathon: 40 + ( population * 4 ); (i.e., 44, 48, 52, etc.)
Epic: 30 + ( population * 3 ); (i.e., 33, 36, 39, etc.)
Normal: 20 + ( population * 2); (i.e., 22, 24, 26, etc.)
Quick: 10 + ( population * 2); (i.e., 12, 14, 16, etc.)

I never play at Quick, so that may be way off ... looking at it now, I guess it would make more sense to be 10 + ( pop * 1.0 ) ... but I know that isn't right. :confused:

I have used it for population reduction for happyness, but I don't often as abusing it seems to create problems of its own.

Food needed for growth to next city size:
(20 + city size * 2) * Game speed modifier

Really? Is that the same as: ?

Marathon: 40 + ( population * 4 ); (i.e., 44, 48, 52, etc.)
Epic: 30 + ( population * 3 ); (i.e., 33, 36, 39, etc.)
Normal: 20 + ( population * 2); (i.e., 22, 24, 26, etc.)
Quick: 10 + ( population * 2); (i.e., 12, 14, 16, etc.)

No, it isn't the same. Only at normal and epic speed, it is the same.

The game speed modifiers are:
Quick: 0.67
Normal: 1.00
Epic: 1.50
Marathon: 3.00

It has changed, and I haven't gone back to update it yet. Maybe I'll do that tonight after Heroes (http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/).

I know that the income from the headquarters has changed and that inflation has changed, but are you also saying that the cost formula has changed? I'm very interested, but have fun watching Heroes. It's a great series.

I know that the income from the headquarters has changed and that inflation has changed, but are you also saying that the cost formula has changed? I'm very interested, but have fun watching Heroes. It's a great series.

For those of you who are interested:

Corporate Maintenance Explained (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6106394)

The formula is the same as it was before, but the base cost has been reduced by 33% in 3.13.

Also, Inflation has been factored into the gross cost in such a way as to completely negate the effects of inflation on Corporate Fees.

This thread has really helped me gain a better perspective on my slavery usage. :goodjob: