I have been working lately on the ffh lore to (try to) make a map that would be "exact" map of Erebus, not contradictory with any geographical or historical lore and would even be playable and balanced (with a historically accurate start)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/116386/Erebuspossibility4.JPG

This is one possible map configuration and the one I've considered the most likely (of what I've thought about)
With the help of the community, thanks to all who have posted
Special thanks to Nikis-Knight and Wilboman

Well, Nikis has made a map, that's probably not canon either, but it is as close as you can get ATM. There is no "canon" world map, not really an idea of what one would look like either.

But I imagine the Balseraph and Luichurp are fairly close, since one of the Luichurp leaders got captured by Perpentach.

If you are a member of the team and you (team) have an official map already please tell me so i won't be doing futile work.I don't think it would be futile work, even though I do like the one I made. Nobody wants to play the same map all the time! (assuming of course that you enjoy tinkering with the WB like I do.)
And the bits of the lore are like puzzle pieces that can be arranged in many ways. Really, none of the stories that take place in the Age of Rebirth are what DOES happen, but what could happen consistent with the character's personality.

The Hippus should have land connected to a body of water in which the Lanun operate, seeing as how Rhoanna was captured by Falamar.

From what I could tell Bannor should be either east or west of the Clan.

The Lanun and Balseraph are fairly close, as Falamar raids their vineyards (Falamar entry).
The Amurites have many grasslands, and several coastal cities. (VAlledia entry and somewhere in the forums)
The Pool of Tears(?) of tears is near the Elohim
The Lectum Frigis is near the Illians
Luchurip are likley near the Illians, as they are the ones who attacked them.

That's all I can think of now.

I don't think it would be futile work, even though I do like the one I made. Nobody wants to play the same map all the time! (assuming of course that you enjoy tinkering with the WB like I do.)
And the bits of the lore are like puzzle pieces that can be arranged in many ways. Really, none of the stories that take place in the Age of Rebirth are what DOES happen, but what could happen consistent with the character's personality.

My map is trying to be as canon as possible so if there's an official map of acertain area i'll rather use it than work 20h on some single kingdom.

The idea of "canon" maps is, i think, that anything in the lore "what might happen" might really happen in the game, so there are possibilities for anything, like OO razing the lurchuip city and lurchuip then building the mithril golem etc.

The Lanun and Balseraph are fairly close, as Falamar raids their vineyards (Falamar entry).
And i think they share the same religion

I think the team plans to release lots of scenarios with Ice; presumably these would be on an official map. But I would love to have a good one until then.

Any chance you could make several maps in several sizes? Nikis' map is great, but my computer isn't really good at huge maps in the late game.

And Doviello should probably be between Amurites and Illians, like in AoI.

I think the team plans to release lots of scenarios with Ice; presumably these would be on an official map. [...]

Several, actually.

I think the team plans to release lots of scenarios with Ice; presumably these would be on an official map. But I would love to have a good one until then.

Any chance you could make several maps in several sizes? Nikis' map is great, but my computer isn't really good at huge maps in the late game.

And Doviello should probably be between Amurites and Illians, like in AoI.

The idea is to make a "canon" map that would be like the whole world map, and the scenario maps would be parts of it. Then, just like Earth maps, it could be split to smaller parts for fan scenarios like lanun conquests or elven war.

Any chance you could make several maps in several sizes? Nikis' map is great, but my computer isn't really good at huge maps in the late game.I agree, I think making one for a large size rather than a huge size would be an improvement.
But it really isn't possible to translate it from one to another except by starting from scratch, afaik.

edit: Wilboman's post reminded me, vorlshlumf's recent post on his FfH 2 D&D campaign included a number of links to lore from the forums, if think that'd help.

Here is something I made a while back that could help. Otherwise, it is just interesting reading. Do with it what you will.

In short, it is a quick overview of the peculiarities of the languages of Erebus.
The Languages of Erebus

In the Age of Magic, a common language was spoken by all humans, with occasionally rather major dialectical difference (like modern English), and extensively used in interspecies communication (still like modern English). This language was known as Patrian. Dwarven, Elven and Orcish were completely separate languages, with no common denominators whatsoever, based on development from an entirely different mother source.

Angels and Demons, while their voices are easily recognised by their sound and timber, have no defined "language" of their own. What you hear, is your own tongue, spoken perfectly, if a bit oddly. What they speak between eachother, is known only to them.

The Age of Ice forced a separation of the Patrian language, with each nation having 1000 years to develop their own dialects of Patrian into entirely separate languages, formed, to a large part, by their culture and environment. The result is that few nations understand more than a few words of eachother's tongue anymore. In many ways, this is similar to the development of Norwegian dialects, where geographic separation led to some dialects almost turning into separate language, and the effect of Elven, Orc and Dwarven in some places is similar to the effect that Danish had on Norwegian, stronger in centres of government, weaker in the more rural areas, weakest in the remote valleys and fjords. That's just a note on inspiration.

On to the tongues as they are today:

There exists a Lingua Franca also in the Age of Rebirth. It is roughly similar to the original universal language, but has been changed by 1000 years of separation and the effects of new languages. Among other things, there is a lot more Elven and Dwarven in the new language.

Elven
Both the Svartalfar and the Ljosalfar speak the exact same language. There are no differences at all. Elven is what you might call a "strong" language. It effects other languages quickly and heavily, but Elves, being rather chauvinist, aloof and elitist by nature, never, ever feel the urge to adopt human linguistic traits or wording. They feel their language is perfect, and as a result, it doesn't change just because it is used by one or the other faction. Naturally, it didn't have any more trouble surviving the Age of Ice than the Elves did (meaning a lot of trouble, really, but not as a language).

Orc
Orcs have no illusions about the perfection of their language, stealing like crows, and breaking the stolen words, cadences and other traits of those they encounter and battle into a verbal shape that they are capable of pronouncing, rendering most of it practically unrecognisable. The once-proud orc tongue is thus only spoken by a select few, priests, shamans and the like - the rest speak a rather distressing and remarkably ugly pidgin.

Khazad
The Dwarven tongue of the Age of Magic remains rather well preserved among the Khazad. It has undergone some of the changes one might normally expect from a language in continual use for centuries, but due to both relative isolation and the rather conservative nature of Khazad culture, it has been changed far less than one might expect. A Khazad of the Age of Magic and a Khazad of the Age of Rebirth would be perfectly capable of conducting a simple conversation.

Luichurp
The Open-Skiers were heavily effected by human in the Age of Magic. In the course of their isolation in the Age of Ice, the Dwarven and Human tongues merged into a language that was entirely Luichurp-specific. But it is not in the Luichurp's nature to stick stoically to their guns. Extensive trading with other nations in the Age of Rebirth has tempered the Luichurp creole with a strong tint of the new lingua franca, something that sets them apart from most others, who exclusively use it in foreign relations.

The Humans

Elohim
The Elohim language is the Rebirth tongue that is closest to the universal tongue spoken in the Age of Magic. This is closely connected to the way the Elohim survived the Age of Ice, as both an organisation with a constant influx of new people, allowing the oddnesses of dialects to be balanced out, but also their role as the tradition bearers and protectors of the old knowledge. The Lingua Franca of the Age of Rebirth is heavily modeled on Elohim.

Sidar
The Sidar are extremely good at picking up tiny changes in pronounciation, inflection, intonation, body language and a host of other elements of communication. Many of the Sidar begin as artists and sages and are slowly changed from the intellectual language of their craft to more consise and less emotional speaking patterns. Thus, their spoken language has no need of being very complicated, beautiful, or expressive. A few words will generally suffice. At a few hundred years of age most of the Sidar have reduced their speech to a few words, which aren't shared easily. Beyond that the meaning of the Sidar is usually inscrutable to those from other empires, but they carry great wisdom and importance if they are understood. Those few words that are used to a very large extent the same as those of the Age of Magic's Patrian - however, they do not hesitate to pick up other words that suit their style of communication particularly well. As a rule, these words spread like wildfire, almost instantaneously adopted by all Sidar.

Sheaim
The Sheaim language is, in fact, engineered by the Sheaim leaders in such a way that the sum of all people speaking Sheaim across the globe is a ritual, the chanting for a spell whose purpose is unknown to all but a very few in the closest circle around Os-Gabella. As a result of this careful balance, the Sheaim language needs to be constantly tweaked and changed in subtle ways, to take into account the constant headaches caused by other languages affecting Sheaim, an increase in speakers, and not least Sheaim words being adopted by other languages. Even a surfeit of incorrect pronounciations can cause problems, so correct language is rather strictly enforced, both physically, magically and psychologically.

The Calabim
The Calabim speak two different languages, both derived from human speak. The vampire aristocracy speak a far more elaborate and elegant language, with a stronger influence from the original language. The people speak a weak and simple dialect, so atrophied by lack of education that it is hardly understandable to outsiders.

The Amurites
The Amurites speak both "High Amurite", which is closer to the original language of the Amurites as effected by the presence of Kyorlin, and "Low Amurite", a creole of languages based on high Amurite, but strongly affected by the many who flock to learn Amurite magic.

The Grigori
The Grigori, more than any other, are strongly affected by the many newcomers, who flee the oppressive reign of the priests, gods and religions. Grigori is, in many was, the English of Erebus, constantly undergoing change through the adoption of new words, altering them to make a seamless, flowing and evolving language. The Grigori are particularly noteworthy for their very interesting swearing, which is devoid of religious connotations.


Balseraph
The Balseraph tongue is reminiscent of Cockney rhyming slang - it is musical and quick-flowing, playful, inventive, constantly evolving, and purposely completely obscure to outsiders, even though the words used appear to be the same on the surface.

Kuriotates
The Kuriotates are a very large and sprawling nation, but with centralised rule. Like in France, this language is one of the main things that bind the nation together. Thus, there is a very strong adherence to it, and a firm, but kind, drive to keep it as pure and uniform as possible. The language is unique in that it has strong effects from Centaur, a language dissimilar to the other languages of Erebus, and in an inexplicable hissing intonation on the S'es.

Lanun, Hippus and Doviello
These languages share two very noticeable traits: they are heavily influenced by the preferred geographical environment and the cultural peculiarities, and there is an enormous variety of sub-dialects, understandable to eachother, but often quite remarkably different. The languages have also changed more than most away from the original language, making it hard for diplomats to speak the new universal tongue without their own tongue affecting it.

Illian
Mulcarn had dreams of creating a new world language from scratch. Illian retains much of his efforts, but also a lot of the old human, changed in much the same way as with the other nations.

Bannor
Very large incidence of Orcish and Doviello words, very rigid in basic form, but with a lot of space for new words. Sparse and precise, as befits a militaristic nation.

Malakim
Desert dialect, heavily influenced by elven. Fluid, easily shifting, like the sand they come from. The Malakim are very open and direct, not to mention deeply pious, aspects which are reflected in the language, not unlike Arabic in its constant invocation of the deity.

I agree, I think making one for a large size rather than a huge size would be an improvement.
But it really isn't possible to translate it from one to another except by starting from scratch, afaik.

I make my maps with bmp-wbs converter so it's possible to change the basic things. With an oversize base map even accuracy doesn't suffer. When resampling from, say, 500x300 it doesn't matter much whether the result is 100x60 or 80x64

Where is that found, may I ask?

What?
Base map or converter?

The converter, I guess. I second that. For the time being, the idea of changing Nikis' monstermap to a size my laptop can handle is rather sexy.

I was trying to get TCSMooooooo maps to ffh 0.21 and found the converter, it's Rhye's BMPtoWBSConverter186, propably upgraded from official[?] converter

I just found some interesting info:
The people soon found that they were no longer the people of Braduk, for as they emerged into their old home, they found it occupied by the strongest tribe of Orcs, a confederation known as the Clans of Embers. A battle broke out, the first of many, with the people who would be known as Sabathiel’s Bannor escaping to the west.
--
The most important feature of this time was the growing conflict with the Orcs, both the unaffiliated clans, and the Clans of Embers. “Orc’s by morning, frostlings by evening” was the saying among the town watch, for the clans’ assaults came from the east and the Illians’ from the west. Through discipline and superior knowledge the Bannor were able to keep the clans at bay.
--
The priesthood and the war leaders would have several causes to call for crusade, facing the wild Doviello to the northwest and the savage Clans of Embers to the east.

I seem to recall Kael saying something to the extent that not all the civs necessarily existed at the same time or in the same Erabus or something alse along those lines.

A while ago, I went through all the pedia entries to get all the clues as to civ location and have a notebook with all the notes and a number of basic geography mock ups in it. I'll see if I can find it and share the relevant info, I imagine there may have been some addition since I worked on it. I was never happy with any of the maps I made. I always felt the balance or spacing was wrong, or the world was too artificial. The only map I ever shared was just too big and sluggish.

Yeah, the D&D games were multiple campaigns over many years with different groups of friends. I didn't have any requirement to be consistent between games and continued to refine and tweak the background as I went on. Several took place on different worlds, and some of the civs in FfH2 were relativly minor or didnt exist at all in the D&D games.

So I don't have an official map.

But, you can expect one to be provided in the "Ice" phase. We had to nail down all the scenarios and places for that phase and the design doc from that phase gives a decent look at the layout of the world (we arent ready to share that yet). But that will be overruled by whatever makes the scenarios better. As is typical we lay out a framework and then begin the detail work which may or may not change the high level design. So Im not sure how it will look when finished, our goal is to create the best scenarios possible, not to comply to a fixed map.

I just found some interesting info:Err, that'd be my mistake, mistaking west for east in the first quote. (though note that in "official" work, those in game, directions and such aren't given so that they can be applicable to any game.

A while ago, I went through all the pedia entries to get all the clues as to civ location and have a notebook with all the notes and a number of basic geography mock ups in it. I'll see if I can find it and share the relevant info, I imagine there may have been some addition since I worked on it. I was never happy with any of the maps I made. I always felt the balance or spacing was wrong, or the world was too artificial. The only map I ever shared was just too big and sluggish.

I have exactly the same problem, as a perfectionist some things disturb me ridiculously. But if you could find that info it would be a lot easier to make something that can be considered a"canon" map, until Ice comes out.

Thanks for everyone who has shared their knowledge thus far, the head post will be updated every now and then. I would like if you also shared your ideas about the shape, style, climate etc. of the continent(s) and civ placing so we can get something ready before the official is published;)

Amurites, Elohim, Bannor and Lanun should be quite near each other and with Infernals spawned in this region according to Valledia info

:dunno: Now there's a problem
Bannor and Amurites are SE from Ilians
But so are Malakim
And Svartalfar is N from them
So how can these be fitted together?:dunno:

Well, you could have the Bannor and Amurites being southeast of the Illians, and the Malakim being South, East og Southeast of the Bannor and Amurites again (i.e. one removed). And are the Svartalfar north of the Illians or the Malakim?

Malakim. The dale of Arawn (is it where Varn is from or is there another?) is in the middle.
Grigori and Calabim are west from Malakim so they are propably more south and Amur/Bann are more east but then where do the elves fit, as Ljosalfar can't be too far from Svartalfar and Bannor. In the middle?

Sounds alignmentally correct:D

Evil---Evil
--------------Neutral
----------Good---Evil---Neutral
Neutral---Evil-Neutral
-------Good
Evil

Seems relatively balanced (sorry for the stupid -------s)

Hmmm...
Is it realistic for the Clan to be coastal?
In that arrangement as the Amurites have coast it seems that sea has to go all the way from Calabim to Amurites and because Bannor's in the middle of Clan and elves but they have some access to the sea, looks like the Clan's going to be surrounded by seas.

Well, I found the notebook that I think I used, but I guess I tore out all the notes pertaining to FfH, so I wont have anything for you. sorry.

Erebus is flat but is it rectangular or round?
The coastalness of Amurites is a problem, all other could be fit together but that causes some problems.

I have been trying to create some kind of heartland-borderland map where most civs will start relatively close to each other but there will be lots of land around them. This will allow both early wars and late expansion. Also the Infernals have lots of space to spawn.

I tried to allow adventuring in the wild borderlands so there shouldn't be excess trouble in getting the Grand Menagerie's animals, especially with wildlands option enabled. Acheron will hopefully spawn in some of the mountain barbarian cities so any nations can try to kill him.

The unique features are placed, if not related to some civ, so that as many civs as possible might get them. There are going to be many ruins and ancient remains to make the world more mysterious and the secrets of hidden valleys, caves and islands are waiting to be uncovered.
(Just a draft yet, comments of any kind are welcome)

Nice concept, looks like a fun scenario. I always imagined Erebus as a spiral, with Letum Frigus in the middle. But that was without reading any civ placement clues.

I think it's a lot easier to fit it on a sphere than a flat land. Not only that, but rather than deciding that one civ will be in the "middle", try to:

- draw a sphere, but do not draw the equator and the poles yet
- put one civ, any civ, on the spot
- pretend that civ is the "center" on the flat representation, and then place civs on the sphere so that the relationships fit
- NOW put in the tilt of the axis of Erebus, the star, the equator, the poles, the waters, the ORBIT that Erebus revolves around...

Although there are many civs and many conditions, given the vagueness of the conditions, and hence the vast range of arrangement sets/ranges that can fall under "solution", there will only be a few outright inconsistancies.

Example: if two civs are on the opposite ends of the sphere, one can either be far North or far South of the other. You place the axis tilt, poles and orbit in after the civs, for that reason.

Nice concept, looks like a fun scenario. I always imagined Erebus as a spiral, with Letum Frigus in the middle. But that was without reading any civ placement clues.

Excuse me for my ignorance but how is the Lectum Frigus so important?
And what kind of spiral exactly?

About that map draft: does it sound reasonable that the Amurites would have their firebow regiments on coast of a lone northern sea, defending from possible barbarians?
And does anyone have any ideas where the Sheaim could be placed?

The Letum Frigus is the place where Mulcarn set up his trone, and ultimately the place where he fell. It is also the place where Auric Ulvin met the Illians and was "possessed" by Mulcarn.

Now, normally you would think that was near the north or south pole, but since Erebus is a fantasy world, and the Age of Ice flowed forth from Mulcarn, I thought it made sense to place him in the middle. The spiral was a spiral galaxy kind of spiral. But that was all just imagination on my part.

But, you can expect one to be provided in the "Ice" phase. We had to nail down all the scenarios and places for that phase and the design doc from that phase gives a decent look at the layout of the world (we arent ready to share that yet). But that will be overruled by whatever makes the scenarios better. As is typical we lay out a framework and then begin the detail work which may or may not change the high level design. So Im not sure how it will look when finished, our goal is to create the best scenarios possible, not to comply to a fixed map.

This is exactly what I was hoping to here, it definitely seems like the right approach.

If the Amurites are coastal, there are two possibilities in that draft. Which one do you like the most, one of these or the original?
(In the right-hand version Bannor and Clan would be moved a bit to the west)

Top one. It gels best with the map from the AoI scenario.

Left hand version for me.
How long till playable version, approx.?

Try the one on the left. Hey, how big are those islands going to be?, the Lanun
could do the island fortress thing,eh?

I'm trying to time the first public version to the release of shadow. The deadline is so late because I don't want to be late from it. A 0.23 version might be ready well before december but the first versions 0.1 to 0.5 are more or less unbalanced.
Islands will be of all different sizes, a couple of bigger ones, with wild jungle and surprises that can't be seen from the coast, for the courageous.

Can't get much faster answer :)

(And plz tell me where to place Sheaim)

(and whether Sidar should be in play or not, and where)

I'd say put the Sheaim by the Elohim and Kuriotates, they don't have any evil nearby.
And the Sidar down by the Balseraphs to compete over that peninsula.

I'd say put the Sheaim by the Elohim and Kuriotates, they don't have any evil nearby.
And the Sidar down by the Balseraphs to compete over that peninsula.

I quite like the idea of evil coming from the north. In most fantasy it's just some unrealistic mountain-enclosed deadland. In medieval Scandinavia churches had no windows on the north side as evil could have come in from them.

Just four letters: When?:crazyeye:

The scetch of your map looks very compromising, especially as i like playing lanun i already see rich coastal citys to raid :lol: , but i wonder if kael does not have an old d&d campaign map in his stash though, i still have almost all my maps from my d&d / RQ adventures, mostly printed bryce 3d terrain and hand drawn over enviroment.

Thing is, that FfH the mod has very little with FfH the D&D campaigns... So there is no map, because he never had a campaign in our Erebus.

I imagine from all the Lore it wouldn't work very well anyway. That world was permeated with a mist that stole your memories, so people lived on very high peaks to stay out of it. Thus it was a LOT of VERY small islands.

Yeah well the Erebus in the Fall from heaven mod has never felt like its the same world as that mist world from his D&D campaigns, as wilboman says.

Just four letters: When?:crazyeye:

Not before I get a working shadow version:(

I decided to skip 0.23 as not many have it, and the conversion would have been difficult enough to justify a complete remake.

For those of you who became impatient, there is my new map called "map where Evil rules"(maybe not so "lore"). But placing of Doviello, Ilians and Amurites is similar to Age of Ice scenario.

@zxccvbmn
sorry for spamming in your thread:crazyeye:

Nevermind, bumps don't hurt

What about the world locations?

Broken Sepulcher: That big island in the south? Keeps him from overruning civilisations too easily ;)

Dragon Bones: Could be anywhere really. Perhaps in Malakim lands? (the whole 'bleached bone' thing).

Letum Frigus: Was the west of the Illians in AoI

The Maelstrom: Put it in the western ocean, so there's something there?

Odio's Prison: Says 'the Lands of Kilmorph' in the civilopedia entry, I guess that would be Khazad turf.

Pool of Tears: Elohim, as already mentioned

The Pyre Seraphic: Smack right between Bannor and Clan lands, give 'em something to fight over :D

Remnants of Patria: Tough one. I think perhaps around the area of either Elohim of Kuriotates? Maybe Amurites?

Tomb of Sucellus: No idea. The southeast (as there's nothing there yet)?

Edit: Tomb of Sucellus is buildable by Amurites in age of Ice, so it should presumably be in Amurite lands.

Yggdrasil: Elf lands, between Ljosalfar and Svartalfar to cause similar issues as Pyre Seraphic.

Announcement:

My FfH finally works. You can begin to except some information on the progress of this scenario but don't hold your breath.

And then of course, the Meteor Swarm entry of the civilopedia shows up and screws the whole map up ;)

And then of course, the Meteor Swarm entry of the civilopedia shows up and screws the whole map up ;)

??????????

It is based around a war between Ljosalfar and Hippus ;)

They don't necessarily need to share borders to have a war.

Especially with the Hippus being roaming mercenaries.

I'm reading a book about great generals at the moment - it is remarkable how often armies fight on other people's territory.

I'm reading a book about great generals at the moment - it is remarkable how often armies fight on other people's territory.

Yes, an invasion tends to cause that. :rolleyes:

Oh, did you mean on the territory of third parties? ;)

Germany & Italy are of particular note here, as they were'nt unified till the mid to late 1800s, and so spent many of Europe's major conflicts (the thirty years war, the napoleonic wars, etc) as the battleground rather than a protagonist.

The meteor swarm entry itself details an attack on a Hippus city by Ljosalfar troops, bemoaning the lack of siege weapons amongst the elves, with meteor swarm becoming an appropriate alternative. It's not totally unlikely that the Ljosalfar have crossed Amurite or Bannor territory to get there, but still...

Yes, third party was what I was thinking of.

About map: it was mentioned in lore that Malakim desert and Lanun seas are particularly important trade ways. In this map it is not really.