Here is a brief summary of one of the shortest games I have ever played. :lol: It was interesting enough that I reloaded to the start to take some screenshots and post them.

Was I correct in abandoning it? There may have been a way out of this incredible dilemma that I didn’t see… any ideas welcome!

(I think it was a small “medium-and-small” map, 5 civs, for what it’s worth).

Here is the key shot – the starting position. It looked pretty good – great food-rich area and a bit of fresh water. The eternal question – settle in place, or not?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/123874/Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

Usually I do without much thought. But here, settling one square from the coast is generally regarded as a no-no… what to do, what to do… The south coast tiles were possible alternatives, but they lose the fresh water bonus, and the coastal grassland might hide a resource that I want to work...

Anyway obviously I moved the scout first, onto the other hill. Now the answer seemed clear – settle in place:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/123874/Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

So – I get all the food resources, the fresh water, the useful stone resource, and three very tasty looking empty grassland squares in the fat cross which could hide strategic resources. Nice.

The downside was that my first city was not on the coast, meaning I would need to found a second city before I could build my work boats out there. I figured this was ok – I had the corn anyway, and the Zulus start with agriculture but not fishing, so the work boat was not going to be the first build anyway.

I started on a worker, thinking to farm the corn while I researched towards bronze working. Then I would chop out the settler and found the second city, while grabbing fishing and then getting the boats in the water. Maybe just going for the settler first would be more efficient, I don’t know.

Well, none of it mattered after about two more moves with the scout. :sad: Here’s what he found:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/123874/Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

Notice anything? :crazyeye:

As far as I can tell, there is no second city site! My chunk of peninsula is too small to get more than two squares away, I am blocked by the mountain, and I can never build a boat to get off the peninsula, because Ulundi is not coastal.

Here is the final view, after I got a border pop to see a bit further, and researched a few techs to reveal copper and horses (yep, I got horses in the fat cross).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/123874/Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

Definitely stranded!

I spent a while trying to think of a way around the problem. :confused:

– Building a fort (after construction) could “connect” Ulundi to the sea but does not let me build boats.
– Civ IV diplomacy does not let me buy a boat from another Civ, or any units at all for that matter :cry: (I think I’ll start a thread soon on why and how this could be changed!!)
– Perhaps I could terrify a rival Civ into giving me one of their cities, although it seems unlikely as long as I am stuck with my one pathetic city, with no way of getting troops off the island… (“Fear my warrior!”) :lol:
– Maybe I can buy a city from another Civ… is that even possible, has anyone ever succeeded in buying a foreign city from a Civ? In any case, the siting of my one city seems unlikely to give me the truly awesome tech-and-gold lead that I would need to pull this off.

So I think I only had one chance, which is to hope some other Civ settles a city within view (hopefully on that desert tile across the bay to the north). Then I spam culture in Ulundi (maybe Stonehenge and the ‘Mids, with the stone) and try to FLIP myself a second city. :D

It would be an awesome triumph if I can even get out of this, but it’s so uncertain (no idea if anyone else is on this island, or where they will put a city) that I wasn’t willing to play it out and see.

So I quit instead. Did I miss anything?

Did I miss anything?

Airlift units to an allied base.

Now you know why settling 1 tile away from coast is a no-no. ;)

You could wait until make a paradrop atack to other civs.... besides that , I don't see how you could manage this.

P.S Building the AP ( or UN ) and request a city to you could work too, but is a very long shot. Basically, you're doomed to play a OCC for a long time :lol:

SInce you settled off the coast your pretty much sunk. If you really want to play it out, spam stone wonders. Hope somone finds you. Be nice and diplomatic. Beeline mass media (yeah right) and hope you can get the UN built in time.

Personally I would just regen the map.

Can't you build a city in the upper left near the pig island? It would overlap somethign terrible of course.

Can't you build a city in the upper left near the pig island? It would overlap somethign terrible of course.

:nono: No tile in his penisula is 3 tiles away from Capitol.... so no new city :p

Nope, you have to be 3 tiles away (2 if on separate landmasses). Regen time I think...

I have never seen the AI trading a city.
I guess your only (very small) chance of getting of the peninsula is culture flip
a city rival city.
I never seen such a starting place before and it made me laugh :)
I feel sorry for you.

Can't you build a city in the upper left near the pig island? It would overlap somethign terrible of course.

No cities allowed within two tiles. You literally can't found it.

It made me laugh too! :D I didn't bother chopping the settler, obviously ... :sad:

I would really like a trading option to buy units from a friendly Civ. It would be just like the real world! ... get rich by being peaceful but selling tanks to your rivals, then setting them against one another!

Maybe you could "contract" for stuff, so you weren't restricted to only buying stuff the AI already had sitting around.

In this game, I'd happily render unto Caesar 150 gold for a galley, allow 8 turns for him to build it and another 8 for delivery!

That's a pretty interesting situation. :lol:

I know this helps in no way at all, but one stone resource is definitely not worth settling off the coast. You make up the fresh water bonus with a harbor, and you get the resource in your borders soon enough anyway. Working the actual stone tile is nothing special.

Poor luck though!

Thats funny stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Too bad it's not an OCC game. Then again you are off the coast so no fishing boats so maybe that wouldn't be so great after all...

Yeah I didn't even think about the fact that he can't build fishing boats until he starts a nonexistant second city. Reload time!

Now you know why settling 1 tile away from coast is a no-no. ;)

/nod

<Ctrl>+<W>

That's a very rare and peculiar start ... I've built test cities like this in World Builder but never thought it would actually happen in a game.

Thanks for posting ... that's just crazy! :crazyeye:

Very interesting start. It would be interesting to reload from the start and see how it would play out.

I probably would have settled the coastal grasslands (do others agree?). This would have been a really good production capitol. It's hard to tell with the fog still there, but city no. 2 could easily grap the copper. And maybe another location on the desert penisula to get the pig island and work the stone?

Could you past the original save? This looks way more interesting then the game I started last night.

This is just excellent! :goodjob:
Thanks for sharing - it's a real gem :crazyeye:

And v.funny too. Good luck with the culture flip then

I don't usually use the World Builder, but in this case, I think it would be justified to just stomp that mountain that's in your way. If you want to be super-minimally impactful, you could just turn it into a hill :lol:

That's one of those times I just reload the autosave and settle my capitol correctly. It isn't like you have a whole lot of foreknowldge to completely change the outcome of the game. The *other* option would be to settle on the corn, but the horses are more useful than the stone.

that's awesome! you were totally stuck! it would be mega-hard to get a culture-flip since the places legal for anybody to settle aren't near your city tile, and will probably be farther out by the time anybody does consider settling there. sheesh.

the annoying peaks remind me of a game i abandoned.
my goal was a time victory, but all conditions enabled, for HoF. so i was OCC to not trigger domination or cultural, and the plan was to go find the bad guy ASAP and harass him, step on every tile to prevent him from making stuff and teching but not actually kill him. rinse/repeat until 2050 AD. finding a path to the bad guy early is clearly crucial for this whole thing to work out.

sounds crazy i know, but i'm crazy so it was really really fun. but i had to abandon the monty attempt because mehmed knew my plan and totally cheated to get this starting position:
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p285/kmadcandy/nofair.jpg
:rolleyes: sploiter. i ended up being shaka since impis rock.

That's the most aweful luck I've seen. But I wouldn't have made that mistake either, because for capitals, by the time you get masonary, researched other meaningful techs, build a worker and road your way up, your capital would have had its 2nd border pop, at 1800BC, already. I would not have had settled there anyway. Besides, if I really wanted that stonehenge, pyramids or great all early, I would've settled ON the stone, and it would've been a good sight with the pigs on the little hill island.

I empathize with you, but most people would not have been hosed by that start.

I laughed out loud at your 3rd screenshot.

Then "Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale" went through my head and I laughed again.

I would have went to the coast when I saw those seafood tiles.

Thanks for sharing though!

I have never seen the AI trading a city.
I guess your only (very small) chance of getting of the peninsula is culture flip
a city rival city.
I never seen such a starting place before and it made me laugh :)
I feel sorry for you.

:agree:

Regen time!

Funny.
But I call the mountain tile blocking your lands a bug of the map generator which should ensure balanced starts.
A human at least could walk to the coast but an AI would settle in place and would be stuck.

the problem is, I don't think the computer understands the idea of 'a blocked area' it understands a continent. Perhaps a rule

If a coastal spot on your landmass at least 3 tiles away is not reachable by walking from a non-coastal starting spot.. the map needs to be modified (ie mountain land tiles 3 tiles away needs to be modified, or a new land tile needs to be added.)

of course all this might do in that case is make that southwestern mountain settlable.. bu that would still work.

You can sort of see the outline of sea tiles to the north, so that should have been a tip off.

Otherwise, it's wait till airport or culture boost.

can you airlift to friendly cities or just to PA cities? if he didn't have PAs on is even that far-off option unavailable?

Can you post the save? It would be fun to see who can do the best with that miserable start :).

^^Now that looks like a chalenge.....

Can you post the save? It would be fun to see who can do the best with that miserable start :).

and make it emperor difficulty level. :)

You can airlift to Vassal + PA cities

Anyone who thinks they'll get to the point where they can airlift units before the game's over is seriously deluding themselves. :p

Bh

I would have settled on the coast, nice GP farm. Then planned on settling a scond city to claim the stone.

After the first screenshot I thought: Obviously settling not in Place. After the second screenshot: Clearly settling on the scout hill.

Why? The advantages of a coastal city: Traderoutes, Health (usually +2 or +3 from seafood + harbour, outweights fresh water), Food (every seatile +1, faaar outweights fresh water), some commerce buildings, some possible wonders. And stones are only a medium production resource to have in the big fat cross.

So I think your mistake positively was settling in place. The punishment was somewhat harder than ususal :-)

Anyone who thinks they'll get to the point where they can airlift units before the game's over is seriously deluding themselves. :p

Bh

yeah i don't see how you'll get a vassal with this single city :rotfl:

^^Maybe a AI will gift him a boat..... nah :lol:

Although you would've lost production, once you moved your scout, you should've seen that the right move was to settle on the coast. Still, tough start regardless.

hey hey hey, futurehermit is back :D

Ha, who knew I had a fan club? :lol:

I've been playing Oblivion a lot lately, but still play Civ4 from time to time. I just go too hard when I play Civ4 sometimes, so sometimes I need to take a break from it :p

Fan club? Why not :lol:

Nah, it's just that I must your endless stream of threads about new paths/strategies/challenges... And I miss people reminding from time to time that land is indeed power :p

Well, you still have Dave telling you about cottages, so that's something at least :lol:

But, yeah, don't forget the fundamental mantra.

Well, you still have Dave telling you about cottages, so that's something at least :lol:

not exactly ... he's changed his tune :eek:
Cottages are the worst improvement in the game.

well okay... there was more to that post :mischief:However, they have a mysterious relationship with towns, the best improvement in the game.nice to see you around, mr. obsessed with land :)

do hamlets add population to your civ and closest cities? I barely play civ 4 games so I completely forget

not exactly ... he's changed his tune :eek:


well okay... there was more to that post :mischief:nice to see you around, mr. obsessed with land :)

haha, yeah that's one of my fav of his quotes. it's even funnier in the context of his debate with obsolete who swears off cottages. that's the mark of a good game when two guys can have such divergent opinions and both be right :lol:

Can you post the save? It would be fun to see who can do the best with that miserable start :).

Airefuego,

I'm with AngryZealot. I know I'd have no hope of winning, but I have a few ideas I'd like to try. If you could, would you please post a save?

You really gonna try that game? I think you're totally screwed.

If you insist, I would:
- build a settler and lots of archers
- declare war on someone and hope they raze your capital
- since you have a settler, not having cities won't kill you
- settle on the coast

Chance of suck-cess is still zero though.

You really gonna try that game? I think you're totally screwed.

If you insist, I would:
- build a settler and lots of archers
- declare war on someone and hope they raze your capital
- since you have a settler, not having cities won't kill you
- settle on the coast

Chance of suck-cess is still zero though.


That's hilarious, your strategy is basically settling on the coast with the loss of dozens of turns. This should be a variant. 8 tile OCC.

Actually, he has more than 8 tiles and stone. He could do a wonder strat and go pyramids. Yeah, it just might work for awhile.

You really gonna try that game? I think you're totally screwed.

If you insist, I would:
- build a settler and lots of archers
- declare war on someone and hope they raze your capital
- since you have a settler, not having cities won't kill you
- settle on the coast

Chance of suck-cess is still zero though.

sylvanllewelyn,

And what better way to learn how to overcome some of the more difficult features in Civ than to play where your chances of success are zero? :)

It'd definitely teach me a lot about the game, that's for sure.

will someone please answer this question do hamlets add population to your civ and closest cities?

will someone please answer this question do hamlets add population to your civ and closest cities?

No they do not. they add commerce only food will increase your population.

And the Hanging Gardens ;)

thank you struttrboy

My first thought upon looking at your pics was that settling in place was a bad, bad idea even without knowing that you would eventually be trapped. Right off the bat you waste several coastal tiles that will never get bonuses from lighthouses/colossus, and you won't get teh benefit of the coastal resources until much later. Combine that with the lack of overseas trade routes, and you can see why it's better to settle either on the coast, or farther inland.

Funny story though, good post.

And the Hanging Gardens ;)

And Axemen....and of course the ultimate Wonder...The World Builder of Doom

Right off the bat you waste several coastal tiles that will never get bonuses from lighthouses/colossus, and you won't get the benefit of the coastal resources until much later.

never get bonus from colossus? sure they will, as soon as we find a way to build it or capture it :lol:. it counts for all water tiles.

never get bonus from colossus? sure they will, as soon as we find a way to build it or capture it :lol:. it counts for all water tiles.

KMad,

And is rendered obsolete by Astronomy. :sad:

LOL. Best start ever. :rolleyes:

that belongs to me on civ 3 conquests, I expanded like crazy, then built up my tech then military, I was the best, andit was on the hardest level, which I forget the name for it is,lol, my bad on that

KMad,

And is rendered obsolete by Astronomy. :sad:
ah, but that's the beauty of not being able to make ships. we have no need for astronomy. :lol: glass half full! just kind of ignore the fact that it's what's keeping us from making colossus in the first place *giggle*.

Hey all, thanks for the comments! :) and well-deserved taunting ;)

Yep settling in place was definitely the wrong move :crazyeye: - I think I was getting too greedy thinking the blank grasslands tiles might contain strategic resources. Well, one did, but it wasn't exactly worth it! :cry:

Also I was guilty of trusting the start generator too much, I guess because starting positions are usually pretty good these days after all those patches etc.

As for the mountain "blocking" bug, I don't know if it is a bug or not, the map was a small “medium-and-small” map which I know can turn out archipelagic-ish or island starts, for all I know I am on the big part of a smallish island. As if the start could get worse.

So now I'm curious to play it out and see how it goes. I see I'm not the only one so I'll definitely post a save in few days when I get home from holidays.

A

PS KMad - I envisage my rival settling the desert tile two north of my desert hill, building the Colossus but STILL falling victim to my 'Mids/Henge powered culture flip strategy. So we will flip ourselves the colossus!!

This inspired me to do an 8 tile OCC. Since much of your output is settled great people in OCC, it sounded doable.
First one, philosophical, didn't work out. Too little production so it was too hard to make those early wonders.
Second, with ramses, went a lot better. Late 1900 space victory with a huge tech lead. I only missed out on the water wonders, temple of artemis, and most of the great artist wonders. My base hammer production was kind of puny, though, less than 40.

PS KMad - I envisage my rival settling the desert tile two north of my desert hill, building the Colossus but STILL falling victim to my 'Mids/Henge powered culture flip strategy. So we will flip ourselves the colossus!!

and save ourselves the effort of building it! brilliant :)

The game was as "un-winnable" as a occ; In other words, it was winnable.