Most Important SE Asian Civ?

The Khmers were the biggest of the SE Asian civs, they built Angkor Wat, and lasted 1000 years. They win. Indonesia, Vietnam, Malaysia, Malacca, and Burma were close, though.

Define 'important'.

Had the greatest longevity, culture, influence, science, or military might in the period or through history.

Based purely on that: Vietnam.

Hmmm... it's hard to make a judgement. It like trying to judge the most important European states after c.AD1000.

Had the greatest longevity, culture, influence, science, or military might in the period or through history.

In terms of influence, longetivity and culture, the Khmer Empire is definitely the most important. I've been to Angkor Wat and it was awesome (the begging starving kids in and around the site is kind of depressing though. Such is the cycle of the rise and fall of great powers...). Other states are also quite important though - Srivijaya had an empire as big as Khmer's and was known as far as China as the centre for Buddhist science and scholarship, while its Islamic and Hindu successor states in the area are also quite powerful and influential as well. Siam was the regional superpower from about AD1300 to AD1560 and from AD1600 to the present day and the only one to escape Western colonialism.

Actually this is an interesting topic to discuss, but I think I see the obvious answer for me. Thailand. :yup:

Well, what can I do, I'm a Thai, after all. :D

Vietnam. And hopefully that wasn't too much of a nationalist biased opinion.

1. Longetivity - it IS the longest living of all of those. It has been alive since c. 300 BCE, possibly even longer. Even if we have to include the 1000 year Chinese occupation.

2. Military - sure, we haven't gone conquering the world. But... we always speak quite haughtily about how we kicked out Song China, Yuan China - thats Mongolia, Ming China, Qing China, France, America, Communist China. Plus we had real women warrior-leaders.

3. THe culture of Vietnam was more or less equal with the Khmer. Just because the Khmer built the Angkor Wat doesn't mean the were the greatest SE Asian Civ. The Vietnamese built their own stuff too, like a mimic of the Forbidden Palace. Althuogh we did copy off the Chinese a lot of times.

4. Pho

Indonesia would come pretty close, because it was important in the international maritime trade routes.

Mmmmm............Pho.

4. Pho

As tasty as pho is, I'm not going to consider that evidence of their status as "most important southeast Asian Civ ever"...

I voted Vietnam because that will make cybrxkhan happy, and they're important too.

I voted Vietnam because that will make cybrxkhan happy, and they're important too.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Vietnam does have influence, see?;) :D :p

It's a hard call, because none of the candidates are overwhelmingly more important than the rest. Each has its high points and low.

I would go with the Siamese/Thais or the Vietnamese/Annamese myself, for their staying power.

In each category that HC357 has stated, I have nominated the few who excell best in that Catergory

Longevity - In this Catergory, the winner goes to the one with the single most longest non-broken soveirgnity. The time is reset whenever they become conquered.

Thailand - The WINNER, indepedent for 769 years straight
Indonesia - First Runner-up 62, years
Burma - 59 years

Culture - The winner gets this if their culture is the most widespread and also for being defiantly un-assimalated into

This catergory has no winner since all their cultures dont go out much from the country. Also SEA's culture is all dued to outside influences. So the real winners of these should be India (culture in Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma), Islam (culture in Malaysia and Indonesia), China (culture in Vietnam) and the various colonial countries, Spain, France.

Influence - The winner in this catergory is for those who show that they were very...well influential!

Sirijaya and other Indonesian states - The WINNER, for controling the spice route and resources for centuries manipulating trade, relations between India, China and Europe and getting the Portuguese and Spanish to constantly hit each other.

Science - This is awarded to the nation which shows if was the most scientifically advance state of its time or simply put, a tech lead.

I dont much about them in this catergory so im going to let someone else do it

Military Might - For those who have shown great um...military Might

Vietnam is the Winner for there is something amazing about being able to halt Mongolia in its tracks three times, constanly repel attacks from bigger stronger more advance China and stop America from overrunning them. This country deserves more than a crappy nominations for being able to stand up to Three World Superpowers over a period of 1000 years and win!

Honestly though I"m a southeast asian in terms of their importance I don't think any were outstanding. I would say either Indonesia or the Thai. Indonesia supplied the spices that ultimately spurred European interest in exploration. Basically Indonesia is important because of trade.

Siam/Thailand and Vietnam tied for me, pretty much.

Though I'm not sure I'd put Vietnam into SEA. Geographically, yes, but culturally...they're really more of a East Asian civilization.

Siam/Thailand and Vietnam tied for me, pretty much.

Though I'm not sure I'd put Vietnam into SEA. Geographically, yes, but culturally...they're really more of a East Asian civilization.

I suppose. They were more Buddhist than Hindu, unlike the Khmers at their height, and they used Chinese writing and loan words, but they are still ethnically and in other ways SE Asian.

^we consider ourselves more East Asian than South Asian, even if we look more Khmer or something. Actually, a lot of Vietnamese can easily pass off as Chinese or Jpanese or whatever, even in the eyes of Asian people. And, althuogh our language is originally Austro-Asiatic or something, practically 90% of our words (including all our technical terms) are from Chinese.

^we consider ourselves more East Asian than South Asian, even if we look more Khmer or something. Actually, a lot of Vietnamese can easily pass off as Chinese or Jpanese or whatever, even in the eyes of Asian people. And, althuogh our language is originally Austro-Asiatic or something, practically 90% of our words (including all our technical terms) are from Chinese.

I really don't know much about Vietnam, do I? :D

^some people say I look like a Mongol. seriously. :)

But anyhow, to continue my rant...

2500 years ago and more, Vietnam was a happy little place, ruled by women (or at least one where women had much power, i don't think we were exactly like Amazons). But in those days, our culture was probably more related to the Polynesians than the Chinese.

But, anyhow, China was north of us, and who doesn't want to be next to China, unless they're the Mongols? Anyhow, at first, apparently, princes and nobles of the losers of the Chinese civil wars came to Vietnam and sort of became our rulers or something, thuogh it seemed that they didn't do much cultural assimililation.

But sooner or later, Chinas gotta get bigger. c. 111 BCE, Emperor Wudi comes down and takes us over.

Althuogh the Chinese would "rule" over us for, technically, more than 1000 years until c. 930 CE, it was always interrupted with rebellions, a number which had a degree of success. But, still, whether broken or not, thats 1000 years. More than enough time for cultural, AND blood assimilation.

Even after the CHinese left, Vietnam was always closely tied with China. Often, many Chinese on the losing side of their civil wars STILL took refuge in Vietnam.

That is why, to this day, practically all Vietnamese probably have a little Chinese blood in them, and why Vietnamese are more closer to China, Korea, and Japan than Thailand or Cambodia, and why Vietnam is considered to be part of "East Asia", which is just China the master, Korea the (once) hardcore traditionalist, Japan the isolationalist, and Vietnam the crazy insane madman.

It's much easier to think of landmarks for other SE Asian civs than Vietnam.

Burma: Shwedagon Paya
Khmers: Angkor Wat
Indonesia: Borbudur
Thailand: Canals of Bangkok?
Malaysia: Petronas Towers

Vietnam has many landmarks no other, or very very very few other countries could get:

- Beat the crap out of the Mongols (built c. 1250)
- Beat the crap out of the Americans (built c. 1975)

for example. :D

You know, there are a lot of Americans who play civ that would rather forget that :mad: :mad: :mad:

True. But, anyhow, my point is, Vietnam DOES have good nice monuments. We even built a Vietnamese version of the Forbidden Palace. However, all our cultural and such achievements have been overshadowed by our military achievements, for better or worse. We aren't just a militaristic people...

Malaysia. They've got the Petronas Towers and that really tall Spire thingy.

It's much easier to think of landmarks for other SE Asian civs than Vietnam.

Burma: Shwedagon Paya
Khmers: Angkor Wat
Indonesia: Borbudur
Thailand: Canals of Bangkok?
Malaysia: Petronas Towers

Besides the Canal (Bangkok was known as Venice of the East at one stage. Now it's more like Los Angeles. They even have the same name - city of angels. If there's any angels over either city at this moment they would likely suffocate) there's also the Grand Palace, and the Wats of Ayutthaya.

I won't think of Bangkok's now few existing canals as THE landmark of Thailand, you know. Maybe the Grand Palace and the Temple of the Emerald Buddha fits better. Or if you want to keep the water theme, the Chao Phraya River can be a good candidate. Chiangmai and Phuket, although not having a single distinctive thing, are also interesting places too. (Please no Pattaya suggestions, that place is now having a negative image associated with it. Most Thai people don't go to Pattaya if they want to go to the beach. Other parts of the Eastern Seaboard or bost Southern coasts are much better. Right now Pattaya is a foreigner's city.)

But you gotta admit Vietnam have has its own moments too. Before French Indochina was created, Vietnam and Siam was fighting over what was left of Cambodia, and the results weren't clear. So Thailand may not be the obvious answer, Vietnam follows not far. But the problem with Vietnam (Dai Viet), or whatever, is that it's not exactly Southeast Asian. I think it's an East Asian country located in a wrong place.

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

True. (Since I have to have more than 10 characters, I'm putting this in.)

As I said before, Vietnam gots its buildings too, but, come on, what do you think is more interesting to pop culture - some old rickety palace, or a bunch of little short guys beating the crap out of world powers?

The Thais did too! They're the only people who managed to maintain independence while other countries became "protectorates", and did it diplomatically too. ;)

^ah, but i never heard of a Thai army beating the crap out of world powers including America, France, China (at least 5 times), Mongolia... Oh, we beat you Thais too, once. :D

But Thailand gets the thumbs up for being the only SE Asian country to be completely free from European control for all of historyl.:)

^ah, but i never heard of a Thai army beating the crap out of world powers including America, France, China (at least 5 times), Mongolia... Oh, we beat you Thais too, once. :D

But Thailand gets the thumbs up for being the only SE Asian country to be completely free from European control for all of historyl.:)

Well I think China certainly got to you since you mentioned you built your own Forbidden palace.:p

^yup. China's Vietnam's big brother, why WOULDNT we?

^yup. China's Vietnam's big brother, why WOULDNT we?

I always thought it was more like a teacher-student relationship

^not really. most people think of it as "big brother little brother", but I think of it as "big brother little sister". :)

Goes like this:

Big brother China is big brother to all his East Asian siblings... loyal Korea, reserved and stubborn Japan, plain annoying Mongolia, and... ah... cute little Vietnam.

Of course, China loves all its siblings, Vietnam too, but sometimes its just too overprotective and overpossessive. So, Vietnam, naturally, has to kick China out all the time.

So.....
Korea is the annoying suck-up little brother
Japan is the emo-kid always locking himself in his room
Mongolia is the ravage bull-dog tied up at the back that once got loose for 200 years
Singapore and Hong Kong are the children sent to a European boarding school
Vietnam is the rebellious teenager with alot of awanted facial hair who wants his "personal space"
and Macau is a hippie.

So.....
Korea is the annoying suck-up little brother
Japan is the emo-kid always locking himself in his room
Mongolia is the ravage bull-dog tied up at the back that once got loose for 200 years
Singapore and Hong Kong are the children sent to a European boarding school
Vietnam is the rebellious teenager with alot of awanted facial hair who wants his "personal space"
and Macau is a hippie.

no, Vietnam is good affectionate little girl who has a hidden... er... very very very violent personality.


anyhow, back on topic, China's influence on the OTHER SE Asian civs was more political (and economical to a degree) than cultural. You won't see any Thai in the good old days worshipping Confucius, but you will see them paying tribute if the Emperor demands it.

no, Vietnam is good affectionate little girl who has a hidden... er... very very very violent personality.


Is that why China keeps coming over to um...invade her and fight through her jungle....

^yes. China likes us a lot. :D

Every major Chinese dynasty (and many minor ones too!) have either sent a large invasion to us, or dealt with a nasty rebellion.

During the "1000" year occupation by China, a number of rebellions took place. Some of the most famous/sucessful:

- Trung sisters (40 - 43 CE). Two little girls, riding on an elephant essentially. they are practically our greatest national heroes.

- Trieu Tri Thinh (c. 220 CE). It is not sure whether she actually existed, but shes another one of our great national heroes.

- Early Ly Dynasty (c. 500 - 600 CE). The Chinese were actually finally kicked out for about a half a century and a little more. They didn't like that at all.

- Ngo Quyen (c. 930 CE). Finally, the Chinese finally get kicked out by this guy. Too bad he wasn't a woman. :)


Anyhow, a number of early Vietnamese (military) heroes are, as one can see, female. Why? It is not entirely known, but it is supposed that in the early days, before massive Chinese influence, that Vietnamese society was a matriarchy (just a little better than the Amazons) - or, at the least, one where women were quiet powerful. Even after the Chinese came to influence us, Vietnam was in fact, despite following China's organizational structure culturaly and politically very closely, retained a degree of a liberal attitude. For example, there was arranged marriages, but, however, the choosing of who to marry who was more lenient then in China - there were more cases of kids marrying someone their own age than a little girl marrying someone old enough to be her grandfather.

Anyhow, a number of early Vietnamese (military) heroes are, as one can see, female. Why? It is not entirely known, but it is supposed that in the early days, before massive Chinese influence, that Vietnamese society was a matriarchy (just a little better than the Amazons) - or, at the least, one where women were quiet powerful. Even after the Chinese came to influence us, Vietnam was in fact, despite following China's organizational structure culturaly and politically very closely, retained a degree of a liberal attitude. For example, there was arranged marriages, but, however, the choosing of who to marry who was more lenient then in China - there were more cases of kids marrying someone their own age than a little girl marrying someone old enough to be her grandfather.

Simply because Southeast asian men are lazy ignorant bums and southeast asian women are hardworking. Go to Singapore and see all the malay men sleeping and smoking and the women working.:p

Actually I think the power of women in south east asia is nothing short of remarkable looking at the influence of India and China. In India women were worse than death they jumped into the funeral pyre of their husbands. In china they were disasters to a family only more debt from dowry and property to be shipped off as a concubine or baby making machine. I think Buddhism's dominance and the actual general hardworking ethic of women over lazy men play roles in this.

still, for some reason, no offense if any of you actually are, but from what i've seen, Vietnamese women can be very very very... aggressive.

40 - 43 CE
I don't want to be offensive, but on this thread, please use AD. It's just, you know, ..............

After all, Justinian is Spiritual/Imperialistic :D .

Anyway, if China is the big brother, Vietnam the little sister, Korea the brother, Japan the alienated teenager, and Mongolia the bulldog, would that make:

France the boyfriend who's trying to go out (conquer) with the sister (Vietnam)???
Korea schizophrenic???

no,no, France, England, etc. etc. are the other clique in the school who just happen to take advantage of the poor little Asian clique. and Vietnam was acting pretty passive when France was hitting on her, but then she just beat him quite ruthlessly and his friend the heavily muscled America. :)

France the boyfriend who's trying to go out (conquer) with the sister (Vietnam)???

That would make Britian the Greedy Sister that goes "If he gets one, I want one two." Then started dating Burma (British afraid of French presence in Indo-China) before adding him to her list of Boyfriends (Egypt, America, Canada, India)

Britian's a popular person :D

his friend the heavily muscled America. :)

Yeah! Go heavily-muscled America! :hatsoff: :cowboy:

anyhow, in terms of actual fame, Vietnam wins.:)

Yeah! Go heavily-muscled America!

...who knocked-up Iraq after a foursome with Britian and Poland

Ewww... Let's stop this metaphor.....

Vietnam, metaphorically or not, is very touchy about its... er... space/purity, i'll put it at that. after China gave us military practice for centuries, do you think anything else coming our way would seem like a serious threat? no, no, definitely not. :)

cybrxkhan, which Vietnamese city would reach legendary culture first? Second? Third?

that depends. I guess Hanoi first, because its the oldest, and a lot of old stuff is around there... it had many other previous names when it was capital under various regimes, Thang Long being one of the names.

Hue would come second, i suppose, because it was the last pre-communist capital, and it has the Vietnamese equivilent of the forbidden city.

Saigon would come last, because its not that old compared to the other cities, by that "South Vietnam" as we know it is actually a very recent addition to Vietnamese territory, being only about five centuries or so under our domination (see the history of Champa for more).

1. Khmer
2. Siam
3. Srivijaya
4. Vietnam

That's what I'd say. I did vote Srivijaya though...

I don't want to be offensive, but on this thread, please use AD. It's just, you know, ..............

er... why? I thought the use of "Common Era" is more politically correct and less offensive. Especially so for non-christians.

er... why? I thought the use of "Common Era" is more politically correct and less offensive. Especially so for non-christians.

I'm a non-Christian and I find it really annoying. It's not "common", it's Christian.

It is? I always thought that "AD" is the one with the christian connotation whereas "CE" is more secular.

The interpretation of "CE" as "Christian Era" instead of "Common Era" is some christian who refuse to let the numbering of years be truly "shared".

CE means Common Era, but lots of people think of it as Christian Era. So, oh well. Why don't we use the calendar they used to use in Vietnam, the Chinese calendar, eh? Its about c. 5500 years on that.

It is? I always thought that "AD" is the one with the christian connotation whereas "CE" is more secular.

The interpretation of "CE" as "Christian Era" instead of "Common Era" is some christian who refuse to let the numbering of years be truly "shared".

With all due respect, I disagree. CE is denying that Christ was even born! At least say that he existed. Is that too much to ask?

I acknowldege that before I had put inaporppriate language and I have deleted it. I am sorry for all those offended.

Warned for language. Be nice. - KD

Well, there's no evidence that Christ existed, and definitely not the mythological form portrayed in the Bible...

"Common Era" is stupid, because although "BC" originally meant "Before Christ" it now basically means before x time. We do need a time when we start the count, and it might as well be when "Jesus died", since Western civilization is linked heavily with Christianity.

It is? I always thought that "AD" is the one with the christian connotation whereas "CE" is more secular.

The interpretation of "CE" as "Christian Era" instead of "Common Era" is some christian who refuse to let the numbering of years be truly "shared".

I've always think the use of the term "Common Era", which is really the Christian calendar known by another name, as inappropriate in a culturally diverse world. I have no problems using AD or BC, but I don't like the idea that it is "shared" by all people of the world, because many culture have their own way of numbering years.

^agreed. but lets get back on topic. :)

...

Vietnam beats all (big).

Khmer makes some pretty architecture.

Thailand stays around and laughs at the other SEA nations for being colonized.

Indonesia is really important in the pre-European-world-domination global maritime trade route.

Khmer makes some pretty architecture.


Sir, I believe you are underestimating.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m51/Grenadier_539/100_0338.jpg

for recent times at least, vietnam takes the cake

You know Cybrx, I knew a Vietnamese American who was driven out of South Vietnam. He refuses to call Saigon, Ho Chi Minh City and thought the current goverment is corrupt and only interested to earn money for themselves and not the people. Is this common?

A lot of Vietnamese living elsewhere, who were refugees, still feel much contempt against the communists, naturally.

For example, you can never make jokes about Ho Chi Minh in front of the older generations. It brings back many bad memories. The Vietnam War, and the Communists were very terrible, and some people don't like those memories.

However, the view you have told me of... i have not heard many Vietnamese talk about it. Generally, what i hear is that most of them think something more like this - Communists = Bad. Simple as that.

I have a question. Why didn't China assimilated Vietnam?

China pretty much assimilated everyone. The original Chinese only lived in the yellow river valley. It was called the "middle kingdom" because it had "barbarian" everywhere. Eventually, all the barbarian realized how cool it is to be Chinese and decide to call themselves Chinese.

There is a reason for everyone who isn't Chinese. Korean was seperate by a huge forest. Japan by a huge ocean.Tibetan live on Mountains. Mongolian live in err, desert. Now, there are some juicy green tiles to the south, why??

THe Vietnamese are very stubborn, thats all I have to say. Very.

They are also very far from China proper - meaning the Chinese heartlands like the Yangzi and Yellow river valleys.

The Chinese did rule N Vietnam for more than a thousand years, and the people did become Sinicized. But the local ruling elite went the other way, and under their leadership they broke off when the Chinese were otherwise busy (during the 11th century I think).

yup. but we are very stubborn, and that may be more harder than a long distance, and anoyhow, after a while, many Chinese began settling in South China (starting withh the Tang)

Yes, but the heart of Chinese imperial power was always in the Yangzi (and earlier, the Yellow) river system. Even today I think.

In any case, in the last 1000 years or so, the Chinese were almost continually busy with the northern 'situation', so they didn't really have the temptation to expand anywhere south much (except for Yunnan and Taiwan). By the time the Manchu Qing had sorted out the north, the Europeans had arrived...

true, but back in those days Vietnam was so small that a rebellion would have been near impossible. :D but distance does make its importance, but more so stubborness. :)

the Yangzi is much closer to Vietnam than the Yellow, and Vietnam used to have more territory in nowadays Southern China. In fact, 2/3 of the south of Vietnam wasnt part of it in the old days.

Well, there's no evidence that Christ existed, and definitely not the mythological form portrayed in the Bible...

"Common Era" is stupid, because although "BC" originally meant "Before Christ" it now basically means before x time. We do need a time when we start the count, and it might as well be when "Jesus died", since Western civilization is linked heavily with Christianity.


See? He doesn't even think Jesus exists and yet he uses BC:goodjob:

All of the SE Civs have landmarks, military feats, and great leaders, so I don't know who I want to choose anymore...

I've always think the use of the term "Common Era", which is really the Christian calendar known by another name, as inappropriate in a culturally diverse world. I have no problems using AD or BC, but I don't like the idea that it is "shared" by all people of the world, because many culture have their own way of numbering years.

Except that the calendar is used by everybody in the business world of today - for some people, in addition to their own cultural calendar - so it is in fact the common timeline, or common era, on top of being the christian one.

And really, if it was AC-BC (like it is in french) it wouldn't be such an issue. It's the "Year of God" part of the equation (Anno Domini) that's the big sticking point.e

I have a question. Why didn't China assimilated Vietnam? watch a documentry on vietnam war and u'll see why:)

Simply because Southeast asian men are lazy ignorant bums and southeast asian women are hardworking. Go to Singapore and see all the malay men sleeping and smoking and the women working.:p

Actually I think the power of women in south east asia is nothing short of remarkable looking at the influence of India and China. In India women were worse than death they jumped into the funeral pyre of their husbands. In china they were disasters to a family only more debt from dowry and property to be shipped off as a concubine or baby making machine. I think Buddhism's dominance and the actual general hardworking ethic of women over lazy men play roles in this.

We dont sleep and smoke and women go to work.. for generations Malay men are most dominant and they have more power than the women. But now well times has change but still we STILL work for money.. its just that our women just want to play a part in building up the family's income by working... i know.. coz im one of them..

I think the Khmer has the most influence in SE asia. But I think behind all this its probably india which plays a major part in making khmer. As far as i know Khmer's sole religion is Hinduism (before buddhism) and you can see alot of khmer's influence around south east asia. Like for example thailand and the borobudor in indonesia. SO yeah Khmer has the most impact. In later times.. Thailand or Siam back in those time was the most important Civ and the most powerful nation in SE asia. They rule like 1/4 of malaysia and other surrounding countries. So i can say that Khmer and Siam are the most powerful nation in SE asia during the ancient time and before the colonization age.