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EDIT: Download version 3 here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=10187
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I've been trying recently to come up with alternate, interesting and (crucially) balanced traits, through modifying xml files. My general ideas were a bit like this:

Industrious should give a boost to infrastructure and production, rather than allowing you to rapidly build 'creative', unique world structures (for example, how many world wonders did the 'industrious' Stalin build in real life? He even destroyed the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour).
Creative should inherit the boost to world wonder production.
Financial should be more about increasing gold than increasing commerce. Currently the bonus commerce can be channelled directly into your science/culture/espionage slider, and is often used as more of a scientific trait than a 'financial' one.
Spiritual should be more about religious culture and influence than its current behaviour of eliminating anarchy. Could an overtly religious civilisation truely convert - without 'anarchy' - to a different religion?
Expansive should allow you to expand faster, whilst also allowing you to expand into sub-optimal areas (by giving you a health boost to counter the unhealthiness effect of jungle/flood plains etc).
Protective is a tricky one, but I wanted some element of 'pleasing' the population by protecting them, as well as being better equipped to repel invasions and counter-attack.
Imperialistic I imagined as a trait which depends upon war to extend a civilisation's influence. Perhaps a boost to war-themed infrastructure and greater spoils of war.

Based on everyone's suggestions and criticism of my original ideas, spanning 7 pages of discussion, I came up with version 2. Since then some extra playtesting has resulted in these changes:

Agg added Free Promo (Combat I) to Armour units as well
Cha added Double Speed Monument
Cre reduced to +25% World Wonder production
Exp reduced to +50% Settlers, and reduced to +1 :health:
Fin increased to +35% Trade Route Yield (in :commerce:), but reduced to +10% :gold:
Imp reduced to +50% Great General points
Ind reduced to +75% Worker, Work Boat
Spi reduced to +1 :) per City

So, version 3 now looks like:

Agg
- Free Promo (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Siege, Armour units

Cha
- No Anarchy
- Double Speed: Monument, Colosseum, National Wonders

Cre
- +2 :culture: per City
- +25% World Wonder production

Exp
- Double Speed: Granary
- +50% Settler
- +1 :health: per City

Fin
- +35% Trade Route Yield (in :commerce:)
- +10% :gold:

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Experience needed for Promos
- +50% Great General points

Ind
- Double Speed: Forge, Factory, Levee
- +75% Worker, Work Boat

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse

Phi
- +100% :gp:
- +1 :science: per City

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter
- +1 :) for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promo (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +1 :) per City
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals

Please play-test it, and criticise!

PS: The downloads for previous versions are broken, please use version 3!

i like the idea of splitting up any bonus to Wonder production (world and national)

can't remember who is CRE/PHI in BTS, but that'll do for me!

I totally agree with you Munch! Some traits just aren´t that logical, and your suggestions seems good! Almost just like I have thought. Some of them may be too powerful, though, like discount from nukes for aggressive trait etc. And shouldn´t industrious maybe add double production bonus for forges and factories? Little changes here and there to balance those traits could be made? Let´s hear more opinions.

I agree with you on everything but spiritual, spiritual shouldnt have a happiness AND cultural boost, too much of an advantage

I totally agree with you Munch! Some traits just aren´t that logical, and your suggestions seems good! Almost just like I have thought. Some of them may be too powerful, though, like discount from nukes for aggressive trait etc. And shouldn´t industrious maybe add double production bonus for forges and factories? Little changes here and there to balance those traits could be made? Let´s hear more opinions.

Thanks for the input! I thought about double speed of forges and factories for Industrious, but I think it would have to replace one of the other points, or the trait would be too strong (of course, we can always improve the others too!). Also, I like the novelty value of extra :hammers:s on tiles :). I think you might be right about the discount nukes, but that is very late in the game, and so far I haven't seen whether it would be too powerful. With a bonus occurring so late in the game, I imagined you would need a different trait to compliment your strategy before you can truely exploit half-price nukes.

I agree with you on everything but spiritual, spiritual shouldnt have a happiness AND cultural boost, too much of an advantage

What if the boost(s) were smaller? In order to compete with traits such as Industrious and Financial (which I think are powerful here) I'm not sure that simply having half-price religious buildings and either boosted happiness or culture is enough. I would like half-price missionaries as a possible replacement for 10% extra culture per city, but it is ugly to code this, as far as I can see. The trait description would read "Double production speed of Jewish Missionary, Buddhist Missionary, ...". It's possible, though.

:)

I agree with you on everything but spiritual, spiritual shouldnt have a happiness AND cultural boost, too much of an advantage


Yeah I dont undertand the cultural boost with spirtual, other then that they look better then the current set of traits we have, in which some really suck imo and make no sense.

. I would like half-price missionaries as a possible replacement for 10% extra culture per city, but it is ugly to code this, as far as I can see. The trait description would read "Double production speed of Jewish Missionary, Buddhist Missionary, ...". It's possible, though.

:)


^ This makes more sense, then the cultural boost for a "spiritual" leader

I think that the double speed production of Tac Nukes and ICBMs is very weak for Agg since Nukes are Modern Era and many players rarely use Nukes or even play to the Modern Era. I would keep the increased production speed of Barracks.

I think that the double speed production of Tac Nukes and ICBMs is very weak for Agg since Nukes are Modern Era and many players rarely use Nukes or even play to the Modern Era. I would keep the increased production speed of Barracks.

I agree with this.

Yeah, maybe you´re right. I agree with barracks bonus for aggressive.

Sounds good, I'd say

Spiritual
+1 Happy for State Religion
+1 Happy
+100% production temples, missionaries
(remove/increase Missionary limit?)

The 'tip' already has to say + to Jewish Temple, Hindu Temple, etc. adding Missionaries won't make it that much more complicated.

Aggressive (Barracks + Drydocks rather than Tac Nukes +ICBMS)

Makes sense. I'd like this is a toggle option :D

^ This makes more sense, then the cultural boost for a "spiritual" leader

I agree. I didn't want the culture bonus, but it was all I could think of implementing to strengthen this trait. It was based on some poorly thought-out idea like 'religion has had an inspirational affect upon cultural works such as music and art', but anyway, I agree it should go.

Sounds good, I'd say

Spiritual
+1 Happy for State Religion
+1 Happy
+100% production temples, missionaries
(remove/increase Missionary limit?)

The 'tip' already has to say + to Jewish Temple, Hindu Temple, etc. adding Missionaries won't make it that much more complicated.

Aggressive (Barracks + Drydocks rather than Tac Nukes +ICBMS)

The things I've highlighted in bold are things that I think are beyond the scope of xml trait modifying. If anyone knows this to be false, please tell me how it's done.

Also, the 'tip' is automatically generated based on the xml files, although there may be a way to overwrite this..?

Would having double speed of Barracks, Drydock AND Stables be too much? I'm also surprised no-one has suggested giving the Combat I promotion to siege, air or naval units for the Aggressive trait, so I'll throw it out there. Would it be overpowered (or just a silly idea) to have so many units with instant Combat I?

:eek:you've combined the best parts of Creative and Industrious into Creative:eek:

:eek:And severely weakened Financial by making the bonus apply to gold alone, not commerce, and making the bonus smaller in the first place!:eek:

:eek:You madman!!!:eek:

Wow, I think much of this looks fantastic. I also like the idea industrious not being linked to world wonders or something like that.

Are you actually going to mod this up? I'd like to give it a whirl.

Also, I don't understand how commerce goes straight to research/production buy gold does not? Can someone give me a quick explanation on that?

:eek:you've combined the best parts of Creative and Industrious into Creative:eek:

:eek:And severely weakened Financial by making the bonus apply to gold alone, not commerce, and making the bonus smaller in the first place!:eek:

:eek:You madman!!!:eek:

:eek:!!

Don't forget, that the 'best part of Industrious' that's now in creative is only the production bonus to World Wonders, I've removed the original bonus to National Wonders and Team Wonders, whatever they are.

Also, I don't believe Financial has been 'severely weakened', so much as it's:
1) now less easy to exploit, and
2) more of a medium-to-late game trait.
Originally it was a very easy trait to leverage to your advantage (just build by the sea and cottage spam) and the benefit was huge; this way the bonus is for gold rather than generic commerce, and boosts your financial infrastructure by allowing fast construction of money generating buildings. I've played a test game as Mansa Musa, and I think it is still a powerful trait. Of course, that's based on only one game, and I'd like to see what other people think when they try it.

Wow, I think much of this looks fantastic. I also like the idea industrious not being linked to world wonders or something like that.

Are you actually going to mod this up? I'd like to give it a whirl.

Also, I don't understand how commerce goes straight to research/production buy gold does not? Can someone give me a quick explanation on that?

Thanks! I've already made a mod of this and playtested it to the industrial era with Stalin and Mansa Musa. I wanted to get to the modern era with Stalin, as no-one can produce nukes quite as fast as him, but got dogpiled! It's pretty good as far as I can see, and a diverse set of traits tend to occupy the top spots on the scoreboard. I've edited the first post to include a download link.

As for gold versus commerce (:gold: versus :commerce:), this is how I understand them:
Commerce is what you obtain from tiles (and some other features), for example river tiles produce 1 :commerce:, and the more a cottage grows the more commerce it yields. Commerce is then channelled into some combination of Science, Culture, Espionage, and Gold based upon how you set your sliders. So, if you build a market which gives you +25% Gold (:gold:) in a city, but are running 100% Science, there will be no effect until you start putting some percentage of commerce into Gold. I hope this makes sense!

All very interesting.

Ind trait is over powered even with the other traits all beefed up. I never liked the +50% Wonder build bonus as it tended to to garantee a brace of wonders to an Ind civ. I therefore for my personal Mod I changed the trait to +1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers (without any forge building production bonus.) In the early game the advantage is less meaningful for cities with bonuses for plain hill mines and metal deposits. One has to think about placing a city. However, the trait really comes into its own in the renaissance/industrial era, especially when railroad comes around. By the industrial age the trait offers, roughly speaking, an extra mines-worth of production per city, which is hugely significant.

I fear your version of Ind offers too much of a production boost far too soon.

I fear your version of Ind offers too much of a production boost far too soon.

I see what you mean. On a related note, one of my gripes with the original version of Financial was that it gave you a bonus on unimproved tiles - i.e. sea tiles. With my current version of Industrious, this problem is less prevalent, but for example applies to forests on plains hills. Another problem I have recently realised with my version is that during a golden age all your hammer-producing tiles generate a extra hammer, which would push many tiles into this "3 hammers gives you a bonus hammer" situation, for example grassland lumbermills, and plains towns under Universal Suffrage.

So yes, I think +1 :hammers: on 3 :hammers: is overpowered. If it were reduced to requiring 4 :hammers: on a tile, and you were allowed double production speed of Forge and Factory, do you think this would be more balanced?

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
no this is to powerfull, +50% is max, otherwise this traits means 'your first build must be a settler'
- +2 :health: per city
instead of +2H a +1 food on city tile (to get 3F in most cases) could represent the 'expandability' (in the early game I often hesitate to build a city because it wont grow)
- Double Speed: Granary, Aqueduct


Fin
- +15% :gold: per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
Such a trait sucks ^^ and the +15% would be indexed upon the tax slider. (its stronger if you get 100% tax than if you get only 10% tax).

Ind
- +1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
- Double Speed: Workers
Hard to say here... would this be balanced ? i dont think so but not sure :/
I'd rather say +1H on mines.

Looks very good, I'd prefere this instead of the standard traits. Maybe aggressive is a little too weak.

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
no this is to powerfull, +50% is max, otherwise this traits means 'your first build must be a settler'

I'm not sure I agree with this, because the production bonus only applies to hammers, not to food. If you build a settler straight away, then only 1, maybe 2 hammers will get the multiplier. I think you would be better off improving tiles first - such as mines - and then building a string of settlers, each very quickly because of more hammers being multiplied.


- +2 :health: per city
instead of +2H a +1 food on city tile (to get 3F in most cases) could represent the 'expandability' (in the early game I often hesitate to build a city because it wont grow)

Interesting idea, but beyond the scope of xml methinks. A similar idea - which is possible - is to grant a +1 :food: bonus to tiles with n :food:. Probably overpowered anyway.


Fin
- +15% :gold: per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
Such a trait sucks ^^ and the +15% would be indexed upon the tax slider. (its stronger if you get 100% tax than if you get only 10% tax).

I'm not sure that it doth suck. It might be weak - it's certainly weaker than the classic Financial - but it does have significant strengths in rapidly building up your economic infrastructure. True, it does depend mainly on how much you put into the tax slider, and that was what I was going for. Previously Financial was more powerful in terms of being a scientific trait than a money-making one. I've tried playing with this new Financial, and the bonus 15% :gold: is quite a lot. At the time when most empires are gonig bankrupt (i.e. around the time courthouses and markets begin appearing), you are continuing at a reasonable pace, and can then build markets and grocers rapidly to bolster your economy.

Consider: You are researching rifling, and are going to be the first civ to get it. You plan to mass upgrade your experienced City Raider macemen to rifles, and lean your might heavily upon some unfortunate neighbour. THIS is the time when you slow your research down, and build up cash (+15%) rapidly - even more rapidly with this trait. It gets you a lot of cash, particularly when you can whip the economic buildings cheaply.


Ind
- +1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
- Double Speed: Workers
Hard to say here... would this be balanced ? i dont think so but not sure :/
I'd rather say +1H on mines.

I don't think +1:hammers: on mines is possible for including in traits. I'm leaning towards saying that this trait is currently overpowered. Thanks flor the input ... playtesting is required! :)

So you're basically just making every trait super powered? There need to be bad traits to balance out people with great uu's and ub's. As you have the prat's are going to be coming off the line needing less xp to promote, and will be built faster. Well that's if anyone plays rome anymore since obviously pericles will be the most played leader.

I'm just posting to follow this thread.

Munch, your changes really make sense and seem a lot more realistic. My biggest concern when making changes on this scale has to do with balance. I don't have much to add right now, but I'm interested in following peoples comments and how well it play tests.

I've done some similar changes and tested them extensively, and you've given me some ideads for the traits I was unsure of what to do with :)

For industious, +1 per tile with 3 is definately too powerful, I learned that quickly. +1 per tile with 4 works briliantly.

For financial I went with +50% trade route yield, well sort of, it's 50% of the trade route yield in commerce which although it sounds the same is actually very different. This strips away the insane advantage of financial coastal cities in the early game and then gives it right back in the mid and late game. It definately doesn't make the trait suck, it just slows down early game research which is something I wanted.

I tried the +1 food per tile with x food for expansive and it didn't work well at all. It ends up being either too good or completely useless, frequently both in the same game :)

One of the problems with the traits is related to a problem with the way Civ4 was designed. You have 'yields' (hammers, food & commerce) and commerce sub types (culture, research, gold & espionage) which is fine. However, since you have things that generate commerce sub types (e.g. +2 beakers) AND those that work as modifiers (e.g. +25% gold) AND the player controlled slider a bunch of things get way out of allignment very quickly. It also creates the (unwanted for me) effect of running at 100% research and still generating gold or running at 0% research and still making discoveries. So you change to financial would work well most of the time but would have the indirect effect of making holy cities even better for financial civs than they are for spiritual civs and making a few specific corporations (namely Sid's Sushi) even more potent than they already are, and not just in the HQ cities.

Of course, now that you've started, before you know it you'll be changing all sorts of things :)

Why not do +50% production speed on National Wonders instead of World Wonders? It seems World Wonders should be on a level playing field...

Aggressive rather nerfed (I'll take half-cost barracks vs nukes anyday). I think philosophical is fine as it is right now, so probably there's no need to spice it up with the bonus beakers. I have a feeling the Ind trait could be rather overpowered if properly used, especially in the 2nd half of game.

If it's possible to implement, I've always thought that the aggressive leaders should get extra happiness when they are winning a war and experience peace weariness when they do not go to war. It would create a different sort of game experience for aggressive leaders (and if the AI understood the bonus, it wuold make them more aggressive).

I agree that the increased production of nukes/ICBMs is not of much value. Not only does this only come into affect in the late stages of the game, it is also not very historically accurate for the leaders that it affects. Alexander the Great and Tokugawa never had nukes. Maybe they would in modern day, but the aggressive trait seems like it should mature earlier to give these leaders their significance early on. Perhaps speed up production of earlier units like melee units (imagine Tokugawa producing samurai twice as fast...ouch!). Perhaps make unit maintainence cheaper so that aggressive leaders can build and support larger armies early on.

Hi. This is an interesting thread. Here are some of my suggestions:

Aggressive
- Double Production of Barracks
- Free Combat I Promotion for Melee, Mounted, Archery, Gunpowder units
- Free City Raider I Promotion for Siege units (might make this trait too powerful)

Industrious
- +50% Production of Workers
- Double Production of Forge, Factory

Organized
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- -50% Unit Upkeep and Unit Supply Costs
- Double Production of Courthouse, Jail

Imperialistic (Same as what Munch suggested except for double production of Jail)


I think that the Protective trait is very well done, same thing for Philosophical. Charismatic is ok, but something just isnt completely right with Creative and Spiritual. But anyway, it's a good start to better ideas.

So yes, I think +1 :hammers: on 3 :hammers: is overpowered. If it were reduced to requiring 4 :hammers: on a tile, and you were allowed double production speed of Forge and Factory, do you think this would be more balanced?

I think you'll find that giving BOTH forges and factories would make it by far the most powerful trait, even with your other traits beefed up.

This traits would make Hattie a goddess!:)

Fin
- +15% per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House

Horribly overpowered if you ask me.

seriously, 5 buildings?

multiposting, sorry.

hey! Great work. Here are some tweeks I think could help!

Agg
- Double Speed: Tactical Nuke, ICBM
- Free Promotion (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units
- +1:) for 8 turns in each city each time you declare war.

Cha
- No Anarchy
- +100% production for National Wonders
- +1 :) for: Colosseum, Broadcast Tower
- No revolt when you conquer a city.


Cre
- +10% culture: per city
- +50% production for World Wonders
- Double Speed: Theatre

Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
- +2 :health: per city
- Double Speed: Granary, Aqueduct

Fin
- +15% :gold: per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
- +50% income from trade routes
- +1 trade routes in each city
Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
- +100% Great General points
- +1 happiness in all your cities for every 3 cities you control


Ind
- +10% hammers on each city
- Double Speed: Workers

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency
- each city gets +2:espionage:

Phi
- +100% :gp: points
- +5% :science: per city
- Double Speed: University

Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter, Security Bureau
- +1 :) for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promotion (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points

Spi
- +2 :) per city
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
- +1 :culture: for temple, monastery, cathedral.

I think every trait should have exactly two (2) half-price buildings

Agg- Barracks, Stable
Fin- Markets, Grocers
Ind- Forges, Factories
Org- Courthouses, Aqueducts
Spi- Temples, Cathedrals
Phi- Observatory, University
Cre- Theatres, Libraries
Exp- Granary, Harbors
Cha- Coliseums, Broadcast Towers
Pro- Walls, Castles
Imp- Customs Houses, Jail

I'm not sure about the stable, aqueducts, observatories, broadcast towers. By not sure, I mean I'm open to suggestions.

I personally don't see the merit of having each trait with exactly two half-priced buildings. First, some buildings are way more important than other (e.g. courthouses and aqueducts better than walls and castles). The other half of the trait bonus are also not of equal value, so I think it's only fair if the overall packages are matched.

So you're basically just making every trait super powered? There need to be bad traits to balance out people with great uu's and ub's. As you have the prat's are going to be coming off the line needing less xp to promote, and will be built faster. Well that's if anyone plays rome anymore since obviously pericles will be the most played leader.

I'm not aiming to make the traits all super powerful, but I am aiming to make them balanced. The general consensus is that the original Imperialistic and Protective traits are poor, and I have tried to make them more on par with the other traits. You have a point that praetorians will be "coming off the line needing less xp to promote", as will all units built by Imperialistic leaders - they won't be built faster unless you choose Augustus. The fact that praetorians are themselves overpowered (in your opinion - not that I disagree) is a separate point. Your point about Pericles comes down to the age-old Phi-Ind discussion; I see how this could be exploited, and am open to suggestions for possibly 'nerfing' this World Wonder -> Great Person cycle.

Why not do +50% production speed on National Wonders instead of World Wonders? It seems World Wonders should be on a level playing field...

Very interesting idea, making World Wonders equal speed for all. Other changes would have to be incorporated to adjust for this...

Aggressive rather nerfed (I'll take half-cost barracks vs nukes anyday). I think philosophical is fine as it is right now, so probably there's no need to spice it up with the bonus beakers. I have a feeling the Ind trait could be rather overpowered if properly used, especially in the 2nd half of game.

I agree that my Ind (and I suppose Phi) are overpowered. I'm writing an updated version based on everyones' feedback. Ind will become +1:hammers: on 4 :hammers:, but it needs something else too. I'm thinking double speed forge and factory, possibly removing the double speed workers.

Financial should have +1 :commerce: to windmills, workshops and waterwheels.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.

Expansive should have something like -25% cottage growth time.

Financial should have +1 :commerce: to windmills, workshops and waterwheels.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.

Expansive should have something like -25% cottage growth time.

Fin is good as it is :)

Why nerf Agg?

Agree with Exp.

I don't think that all the traits should be equal. If a player wants a harder game, but not to the extent of moving up a difficulty level, why not just take a couple of weak traits instead of you're usual strong ones. Not all civs will be created equal, that's an unavoidable fact.

I do like this idea... I am currently working on a MOD... I may have to use this.... IF I MAY!

I think every trait should have exactly two (2) half-price buildings

Agg- Barracks, Stable

.


Should be Barracks and Drydock, to balance out pangea, contients and island maps imo.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.




that is an interesting idea, but for all units or just melee and gunpowder?

I don't think that all the traits should be equal. If a player wants a harder game, but not to the extent of moving up a difficulty level, why not just take a couple of weak traits instead of you're usual strong ones. Not all civs will be created equal, that's an unavoidable fact.


I disagree, I think I should be able to pick a leader because of my own personal like / dislike of the individual, not because I like his traits.

For instance I personally like Genghis Khan, but his traits are pretty weak in this game. I should be able to pick Khan and not feel I am at a disadvantage then if I choose another leader with more favorable traits.

that is an interesting idea, but for all units or just melee and gunpowder?

I would prefer it to stay on melee/gunpowder units only. As those are "invasion troops".

Give Protective a bonus for Air, naval ships.
Charismatic need a boost

I would prefer it to stay on melee/gunpowder units only. As those are "invasion troops".

How about the horse units and tanks? I think their main purpose is for invasion. (horse units do need a slight boost, IMO anyway).

Yeah, I can agree on horses too. But remember horses always have the possibility of coming out of the gate with +2 xp than non-mounted units. No matter the civ.

Give Protective a bonus for Air, naval ships.
Charismatic need a boost

i dont think most consider charismatic a "weaker" trait

the most commonly named weaker traits are protective and imperialistic

if fact I think that protective is almost worthless in alot of cases

I would prefer it to stay on melee/gunpowder units only. As those are "invasion troops".

melee/gunpowder are invasion troops, but mounted, armored, and helicopter units which do not get defensive bonuses are not?

i dont think most consider charismatic a "weaker" trait

the most commonly named weaker traits are protective and imperialistic

if fact I think that protective is almost worthless in alot of cases

Are you referring to the original or the modified Charismatic trait(s) presented in this thread? Is he referring to the same one you are?



Although the ideas look interesting, I think a number of the traits have increased in complexity (although a few have stayed the same). What I mean by that is the number of benefits/double production buildings has skyrocketed...the OP's Financial trait gets 5 double production buildings! Also, 3 different traits give extra happiness...it's not as bad/repetitive as the UBs, but getting close.

I also am not a fan of Anastase's suggestions for the same reason--they add more complexity to the already added complexity, especially that suggestion for Financial. 4 different benefits including 5 double production buildings? Way too much in my book.

I wouldn't recommend giving any trait an advantage in a nuclear exchange--too late in the game, but maybe it's just because I rarely even see the modern era. After all, the UUs and the UBs are limited in use throughout the game (the UUs by technology, and you have to wait to build your UB...and some go obsolete), but your traits are with you from turn 1 until the end. Therefore, I like the current traits, which, although some of the double-production buildings don't appear until later like the Factory, all the traits have "concentrated utility" all throughout the game. Also, it just seems weird to give a certain group of leaders superior nuking capacity.

Personally, I've always been a fan of the minimalist style...give one or two strong, distinct, and utterly unique benefits, and then stop there. The final "balancer" would be the double production buildings...so some traits, like Financial is now, will have 0 or 1 because of the huge commerce benefit. Weaker "main benefit" traits would receive 2-3 double production buildings as an offset. I really don't like having more than 2 double production buildings, but sometimes that's all I can think of.

@Munch: Now that all that has been said, I do like some of your ideas, especially with modifying Protective. I have adopted a few of your suggestions into my list as well. I've also considered switching around the Expansive and Imperialistic Settler and Worker bonuses myself, and giving Expansive double production on Aqueducts instead of Harbors (although I still haven't made that switch yet). I'm unsure on changing Creative and Industrious, although your reasoning for doing so is sound.



My Stuff...
For my mod, I have been developing an alternate trait list as well. Since this seems to be the thread for trait criticism, I'll go ahead and attach it here. The design parameters for me were a little different...instead of completely re-working the major benefits for each trait, I decided to try and keep the original "Firaxian" spirit of each trait alive, but just rebalance them. So, without further delay, here they are:

Aggressive
Free Combat I Promotion on all Melee and Gunpowder Units
Double Production on Barracks, Stables

Charismatic
+1 Happiness in all Cities
-25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
+1 Happiness from Monuments, Broadcast Towers

Creative
+3 Culture in all Cities
Double Production on Libraries, Theatres

Expansive
+2 Health in all Cities
+50% Production on Workers
Double Production on Granaries, Harbors

Financial
+1 Commerce on Tiles with 2+ Commerce
Double Production on Customs Houses

Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+50% Production on Settlers
Double Production on Monuments

Industrious
+50% Wonder Production
Double Production on Forges

Organized
-50% Civic Upkeep
Double Production on Courthouses, Factories

Philosophical
+100% Great Person Birth Rate
Double Production on Universities

Protective
Free City Garrison I and Drill I Promotions on all Archer and Gunpowder Units
+1 Happiness from Walls
Double Production on Walls, Security Bureaus

Spiritual
No Anarchy
Double Production on Temples, Cathedrals

Are you referring to the original or the modified Charismatic trait(s) presented in this thread?

the orginal

In that case, it's one of my favorites, and I think one of the best (I always need extra happiness, and that's exactly what Charismatic provides; better troops are also highly useful). The proposed Charismatic in this thread is more like Spiritual, and so you could argue that it's worse.

i'm surprised people like the new spiritual. to me, the best part looks like the :), which is nice, but not worth giving up the other traits for probably. yes the cheap buildings you potentially get 7 different brands of each one to make. but cathedrals have a limit (1 per 3 temples) and very seldom get built anyway, so i'd call them maybe half of 1/3rd of a building. and monasteries are the only cheap buildings on the entire list that go obsolete, that's a major bummer there, maybe half a building. add in that culture boost suggested in the trait isn't free culture, it's a %age boost, meaning it won't give expansions until something is built, so it's no use in and of itself at first, pretty much helps with culture victories or when you have a border clash.

so to me the trait is +2 :), +10% culture, and 1 2/3 cheap buildings (potentially x 7).

i understand your reasoning with taking away no anarchy. but to me that's the strength of current spiritual by far, not the cheap temples, and it needs something really strong to replace it. i think that with the suggested trait, the cheap buildings (all of which give culture themselves) and the culture will be far more useful for culture victories than for any other type of games. and culture victories are where you typically have far less to worry about where happiness is concerned, so after a certain point the +2 :) is completely wasted. :lol: i guess i don't see where it fits in the scheme of things.

i'm surprised people like the new spiritual. to me, the best part looks like the :), which is nice, but not worth giving up the other traits for probably. yes the cheap buildings you potentially get 7 different brands of each one to make. but cathedrals have a limit (1 per 3 temples) and very seldom get built anyway, so i'd call them maybe half of 1/3rd of a building. and monasteries are the only cheap buildings on the entire list that go obsolete, that's a major bummer there, maybe half a building. add in that culture boost suggested in the trait isn't free culture, it's a %age boost, meaning it won't give expansions until something is built, so it's no use in and of itself at first, pretty much helps with culture victories or when you have a border clash.

so to me the trait is +2 :), +10% culture, and 1 2/3 cheap buildings (potentially x 7).

i understand your reasoning with taking away no anarchy. but to me that's the strength of current spiritual by far, not the cheap temples, and it needs something really strong to replace it. i think that with the suggested trait, the cheap buildings (all of which give culture themselves) and the culture will be far more useful for culture victories than for any other type of games. and culture victories are where you typically have far less to worry about where happiness is concerned, so after a certain point the +2 :) is completely wasted. :lol: i guess i don't see where it fits in the scheme of things.

Getting several cheap religious buildings is excessive, I think. Spiritual could use a little boost, so I gave it double production on Cathedrals, but I left the main strength of the trait unchanged. However, +2 happiness is, in my opinion, a really strong benefit. They were giving that to Charismatic before nerfing it slightly to +1 happiness with an extra +1 available from two types of buildings.

If you think about it Charismatic leaders where born form war Churchil,Nap so it makes sence. Pro is for me a counter to Agg (as me being always churchill) thus needs to have boni reflecticing that.city garr1 drill for guns,archers. But most people complain about Protective. Naval, Air units are better now but I think Protective should give them a Bonus Intercept and Strenght.

Aggressive
Free Combat I Promotion on all Melee and Mounted and Tanks Units
Double Production on Barracks, Stables

Charismatic
+1 Happiness in all Cities
-25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
+1 Happiness from Monuments, Broadcast Towers ,Wonders
Can draft under any labour civic( not the first one)

Creative
+3 Culture in all Cities and ,per Wonders
Double Production on Libraries, Theatres

Expansive
+3 Health in all Cities
+50% Production on Workers (and food)
Double Production on Granaries, Harbors

Financial
+1 Commerce on Tiles with 2+ Commerce
Double Production on Customs Houses,
Market comes with alphbet
Or free trade route

Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+50% Production on Settlers (and food)
Double Production on Monuments
10% less city maintence

Industrious
+50% Wonder Production
Double Production on Forges
Forges and Factories don't create :yuk:

Organized
-50% Civic Upkeep
Double Production on Courthouses, Factories
+10% More hammers
Units have an extra movement in borders

Philosophical
+100% Great Person Birth Rate
Double Production on Universities
+50% GG

Protective
Free City Garrison I and Drill I Promotions on all Archer and Gunpowder Units
Free Intrcept to Air units
Free Strength to ships
+1 Happiness from Walls
Double Production on Walls, Security Bureaus

Spiritual
No Anarchy
Double Production on Temples, Cathedrals and Monastries
+1 gold city with state religion

Borrowing from other people's idea, this is my list (minus half-price buildings):

Aggressive: Free C1 for melee, mounted, armored units

Financial: +25% :gold:, +1 :traderoute: per city

Industrious: +25% wonder production speed, no :yuck: from forge, factory (coal and oil still cause :yuck:)

Organized: -50% maintenance

Spiritual: Double :) for state :religion:, double shrine income from domestic cities, +1 :) from temple, cathedral

Philosopical: +100% GPP, +10% :science: per city

Creative: +2 :culture: per city, +1 :) per 10% on :culture: slider

Expansive: +2 :health: per city, +50% :hammers: in production of settlers, no :yuck: from jungle, floodplains

Charismatic: +1 foreign relations, +1 :) per city, no anarchy during revolutions, +1 :) from monument, broadcast tower

Protective: Free CG1, D1 for archery, gunpowder units, +1 :) from walls, castles, +2 :espionage: per city (I was desperate)

Imperialistic: +2 exp for all siege, naval and air units, +100% GG production rate, -25% exp needed for upgrades

If I have any changes I'll make them here.

Not that the suggestions are necessarily poor, but I think many of the things being suggested are beyond the scope of an XML mod - like doubling shrine income for spiritual civ's... unless you plan on doing some hardcore reprogramming, you may want to simplify these down a bit.

I hardly know where to find XML stuff, much less how to mod it, and even less on how to do "some hardcore reprogramming"...

Philosophical ( really Scientific) :


+100% :gp: rate
+1 :science: per specialist .
+25% production of university


Creative ( really cultural)


+2 :culture:/city
+3 :culture: per specialist
+10% :culture: per monument
Double production : Theatre , Colluseum


Industrious ( really productive) :


+1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
+1 :hammers: / specialist
+25% production of forge and factory.


Spiritual ( really religious) :


No missionary limit
Double production of missionaries, temples , monastaries , special religious buildings ( i.e. synogogues , mosques , mandirs , etc) .


Financial

+10 :gold: per city
+2 :gold: per specialist
Double production of Market , Grocer , Bank .


Organized ( really strategic)

-50% civic upkeep
+ 1 :espionage: per specialist
+25% production of jail and courthouse .
+25% production of spies .


Imperialistic :


+100 Great General emergance
-25% need XP for military units


Charismatic


No Anarchy
+1 :) per city
+1 :) per specialist
+1 :) from monument and broadcast tower
+1 diplomacy


Aggressive :


Free Combat 1 promotion for melee , archery, gunpowder , mounted AND armored units .
+25% production speed of barracks , drydock , AND stables .
-1 diplomacy


Expansive :

+3 :health: per city
+50% production of settlers .


* Alternative Expansive ( really Agricultural)

+2 :health: / city
+1 :food: on tiles with 3 :food:


Protective :

Free CG I and Drill I promotion for archery + gunpowder units .
+100% domestic Great General emergence
Double production speed of GREAT WALL .
+1 :) for walls
-1 :traderoute: for FOREIGN cities .

I was playing around with some of the ideas presented on this thread and I made a new mod - let me know off hand if you think anything is OP or unbalanced... I amped up most of the traits a bit. In fact, I may have had too much fun with this. Anyway, first off, I added a completely new trait called Stratigic. I reorganized all of the leader traits to include the new one among various leaders (probably half the leaders have completely different traits now - I won't detail that in this post). Let me know what you think -

PHI: +10% Research / +100% GP modifier / +100% production building Library & University.

AGG: Combat I promotion for Melee, Gun, Mounted, Armor / +100% production bonus when building Tactical Nuke, Nuke, Biological Missile (I added the NEXT WAR mod, too), Barracks, Stable, Drydocks.

SPI: +10% Culture / +2 Happiness / +100% production building Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals.

EXP: +2 Health / +100% production building Settlers, Granery, Aquaduct.

IND: +1 Production on tiles producing 3 / +50% production building workers / +100% production building Forge / Labor Post (see below).

CRE: +25% Civic Upkeep (yes, it costs more) / +50% GP modifier / +2 Culture / monuments provide +1 happiness / +100% production building National Wonders, monuments, theatre.

FIN: +10% Commerce (not gold) / +1 Gold in plots producing 4 / +100% production building market, grocer, bank.

ORG: -50% Civic Upkeep / +2 Espionage / +100% production building Courthouse, City Hall (see below).

CHA: +1 Happiness / No Anarchy / Colesseum & Broadcast Tower add +1 Happiness / +100% production building Colesseum & Broadcast Tower.

PRO: Caity Garrison I promotion to Archer, Gun / +50% domestic GG modifier / Walls (see below) & National Security add +1 Happiness / +100% production building Walls & National Security.

IMP: -25% Civic Upkeep / -25% Unit leveling experience / +25% GG modifier / +25% GP modifier / +100% bonus to building castles (see below).

STR (strategic): +25% Civic Upkeep (again, that's a plus sign) / Morale promotion to Melee, Gun, Mounted, Armor / +10% Espionage / +50% GG modifier / +100% production building Intel Agency.

I made a few building mods as well - Castles are a lot stronger which indirectly makes walls more important. Here's some of the changes -

Forges: No base production / +25% production with access to Iron / +10% production & +10% gold with access to copper / all other original traits.

Labor Post (custom building): +25% production with access to stone / +10% production & +10% gold with access to marble / +1 engineer specialist cap.

Walls: +25% espionage defense in addition to original traits.

Courthouse: I cut the hammer cost in half for all court house buildings and UB's / city matinence modifier is -25% (-50% for that one Holy Roman UB) / original traits.

Castle: Available at Monarchy / -25% city matinence / original traits.

City Hall (custom building): Available at Economics (when castles go obsolete) / -25% city matinence / +1 spy specialist & +1 merchant specialist cap.

FIN: +10% Commerce (not gold) / +1 Gold in plots producing 4 / +100% production building market, grocer, bank.

surely you mean +1 commerce in plots producing 4.

STR (strategic): +25% Civic Upkeep (again, that's a plus sign) / Morale promotion to Melee, Gun, Mounted, Armor / +10% Espionage / +50% GG modifier / +100% production building Intel Agency.


morale is the GG promotion that gives +1 movement point. i get that free on all melee, gunpowder, mounted, and armor units? charge me +200% civic upkeep and i'll still sign the dotted line. i'd actually start a war for once if i had that trait! :lol:

oh man, picture shaka's impis travelling 3 with mobility :eek:

Philosophical ( really Scientific) :


+100% :gp: rate
+1 :science: per specialist .
+25% production of university


Creative ( really cultural)


+2 :culture:/city
+3 :culture: per specialist
+10% :culture: per monument
Double production : Theatre , Colluseum


Industrious ( really productive) :


+1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
+1 :hammers: / specialist
+25% production of forge and factory.


Spiritual ( really religious) :


No missionary limit
Double production of missionaries, temples , monastaries , special religious buildings ( i.e. synogogues , mosques , mandirs , etc) .


Financial

+10 :gold: per city
+2 :gold: per specialist
Double production of Market , Grocer , Bank .


Organized ( really strategic)

-50% civic upkeep
+ 1 :espionage: per specialist
+25% production of jail and courthouse .
+25% production of spies .


Imperialistic :


+100 Great General emergance
-25% need XP for military units


Charismatic


No Anarchy
+1 :) per city
+1 :) per specialist
+1 :) from monument and broadcast tower
+1 diplomacy


Aggressive :


Free Combat 1 promotion for melee , archery, gunpowder , mounted AND armored units .
+25% production speed of barracks , drydock , AND stables .
-1 diplomacy


Expansive :

+3 :health: per city
+50% production of settlers .


* Alternative Expansive ( really Agricultural)

+2 :health: / city
+1 :food: on tiles with 3 :food:


Protective :

Free CG I and Drill I promotion for archery + gunpowder units .
+100% domestic Great General emergence
Double production speed of GREAT WALL .
+1 :) for walls
-1 :traderoute: for FOREIGN cities .


pretty good actually

Financial

+2 :gold: per specialist


so even before i know currency, i just assign some population to work as citizen specialists and they each earn 2 :gold:? overpowered that early imo, but nifty if i'm going broke!

Charismatic

+1 :) per specialist

and i think this one is 48,000 times more overpowered :lol:. i can control happiness levels in each city individually, like hiring entertainers in the old versions, without spending time making buildings or learning any techs. but it's better, because i still get the normal benefits i'd be getting from the specialists anyway. the best policy may well be to let your best cities grow over happy cap since this lets you basically ignore the happy cap without losing commerce empire-wide by running the luxury slider, and without needing a zillion warriors for military police. your biggest cities are probably big because they're good cities anyway, so chances are specialists won't be wasted there. i'd love to be able to use this trait, mind you, but i think it's completely out of whack even from that one aspect, without considering the other bonuses it gets.

I'm wondering why everybody is just enamored with the notions of using drawbacks and sometimes ridiculous numbers of extra production on buildings. Maybe it's just the fact that I like to keep it simple.

Having a trait dedicated to production in the sense of extra hammers is an interesting throwback to Civ3 (didn't Industrious provide extra shields in that game?). Not to mention...Imperialistic needs a serious boost, and I'm afraid my feeble double production on monuments, though fitting, is not nearly enough. How about double production on workers or settlers, or whatever that trait is given?

EDIT: Kmad summed up some of my views of the above traits.

Well I'll agree and disagree with you permanoob .

I think the way I tweaked financial is fine . The currency thing is a weak argument since you can already earn gold before currency . On top of that , gold( along with other metals) was a universal currency before the invention of paper money . :D

Basically you loose the commerce bonus but gain back in raw gold . +2:gold: isn't overdoing it since the trait is purely focused on gold and nothing else . Financial is it not ?


About the +1 :) / specialist . Thinking about it , it
'could be' somewhat overpowered but its already kinda used in the game already in the form of HR civic . Whats the real difference in assigning a :) specialist and a :) military unit to ' ignore' the happiness cap ?
Benifits from the specialist , well sure , but HR gives you the benifit of having actual troops to defend/attack . Standard specialist arn't soldiers and can't dispach even a barbarian warrior . :lol:
Don't forget about the health cap either . Unhealthiness will come back and bite you .

Anyway , I am not entirely sure of you can give specialists :) bonuses . I'll have to look that up .


If we were to tweak it again , would something like below be more acceptable ??

Charismatic :


No Anarchy
+1 :) / city
+1 :) from monument + broadcast tower
+1 Diplomacy
Double production : Monument + broadcast tower

I think a grand total of +3 happiness for most of the game is enough for a trait, but you are also adding a diplomatic bonus (albeit a tiny one) and the major part of the Spiritual trait. The double-production buildings are just excessively good.

But then again, if all the traits look like that, then it becomes "balanced". I suppose there are two ways of going about the leader traits...the minimalist style I mentioned above, or the heavily-modified version espoused by some of our fellow posters. You would probably have to adjust handicaps, tech costs, and inflation (stuff like that) to get the game pace smoothed out again.

I think a grand total of +3 happiness for most of the game is enough for a trait, but you are also adding a diplomatic bonus (albeit a tiny one) and the major part of the Spiritual trait. The double-production buildings are just excessively good.

But then again, if all the traits look like that, then it becomes "balanced". I suppose there are two ways of going about the leader traits...the minimalist style I mentioned above, or the heavily-modified version espoused by some of our fellow posters. You would probably have to adjust handicaps, tech costs, and inflation (stuff like that) to get the game pace smoothed out again.


Ahh the simple man . You make a lot of sense but having ' dull ' traits like you suggest really make the game mundane and not wide ranging . If a leader had basic simple traits then there wouldn't be enough of difference between leaders and thats what makes the game so great and diverse in my opinion . Just about any leader you play , you play differently and you have many to choose from , thats the wonderful thing about Civ4 .

But again , I tend to agree with permanoob about the :) specialist thing . Though its already done with HR basically , it basically is the samething as HR with slight differences .

I think this :

No Anarchy
+1 / city
+1 from monument + broadcast tower
+1 Diplomacy
Double production : Monument + broadcast tower

... is a good suggestion . You basically only get 2 :) in the beggining with an opportunity for a 3rd later in the game . The big thing here is No Anarchy which fits a Cha leader much better than a Spiritual leader IMO .

But I gave spiritual a huge make up for that as well .

No missionary limit
Double production of missionaries, temples , monastaries , special religious buildings ( i.e. synogogues , mosques , mandirs , etc) .

Half priced religious structures which give you nice boosts and you can spread your religion to your hearts content with the unlimited missionaries making spiritual , well , really spiritual ( in the religious sense at least which I think is implied in the game .)

Potential here for lots of happiness + money , I don't see it as a draw back and actually a fair trade for no-anarchy .

My changes would be... well most of my cahnges would require a SDK Mod lol

Fin
- +1C to Trade routes for every 5pop.
- 100% Production Banks

Basically for every trade route you have you get plus so and so raw commerce after trade route multipliers have been calculated onto base trade route commerce

eg - 1C (base trade route commerce) +100% overseas trade = 2C + 2C from having a size 10 city. = 4C (total)

Also I think you can only have 5 Trade routes at any point in time in the game, 6 if you're Hannibal Carthage with his UB (Hope I spell his Civ name correctly) and assuming on average the max size of a city is 20 Pop, you get a max amount of 16C, 20C with Hannibal.

The methods of getting 5 trade routes are...

(Early game Coastal Cities only)
Base + Great Lighthouse + Currency + Castle/Free Market

or

(Late Game)
Base + Currency + Corporations + Free Market + Airport.

I realize any other trade route bonuses are exploitable especially in MP where you would close boarders and the Fin Civ player would be worse off and any gold bonus is too reliant on the tax slider.

Imp
- +100% GG
- +50% Prouduction Settlers
- -50% War weariness
- -50% Unit Upgrades

I added Less War weariness and unit upgrades because it works well with the constant war required to maximize GG production.

Some of you may think it's overpowered if you somehow get the Pyramids in the early game and Police state.

Not really when you compare the opportunity cost of not running representation, (figure it out for yourself it's pretty obvious) and also there's a limit to how much you can conquer pre COLs, not to mention the high maintenance cost of the PL civic.

Pro
- Trait stays the same, Castles now obsolete with Corporations.

I generally see the AI with a decent counter attack SOD and I'd prefer them to attack me within my own boarders so I'd suffer less WW and if they can, I like to see them suicide their stack on my CG3 boarder city I generally save quite a few Flanking Mounted units to knock off their siege... if only someone programed the AI to use Spies for city revolt missions lol.

Protective's true weakness in my opinion has to do with their Cheap builds that obsolete quickly, Walls obsolete with Rifling and Castles with Economics. I consider walls and castles 1 building because you need to build walls before castles and since the castle lifespan is so short I never build them so i decided to extend their lifespan.

Another Improvement to castles could possibly be a tourism improvement which kicks in once you've researched flight which gives you +100% Commerce to trade routes.

Cre
- +1 Culture
- +100% Culture
- +100% Production to Theater, Colosseum and Library

I always thought it was silly that the creative trait wasn't good at cultural victories, even though the trait is cultural orientated, I figure a change like this would make it more useful in the culture race. If the 100% Culture (similar to free speech) is overpowered I'll consider removing cheap theaters, their already cheap anyways at a cost of 50 hammers.

Org
- -20% maintenance
- Cheap Lighthouse, Courthouse and Factory

the -20% maintenance would be similar to Shaka's UB

Exp
- +3 Health
- +25% Production to workers
- 100% production Granary and Harbor

Just a minor change to balance out the nerf to workers.

Phil. Cha, Agg, Ind and Spi are left unchanged. Although I may consider giving a minor boost Spi because it's been indirected nerfed by Golden ages and CR wonder. Maybe a +50% Golden Ages, give them a longer golden age because they can't benefit from anarchy free civics switch because they already have that bonus.

I think the way I tweaked financial is fine . The currency thing is a weak argument since you can already earn gold before currency . On top of that , gold( along with other metals) was a universal currency before the invention of paper money . :D

well you can't "produce" gold with hammers, or use merchant specialists to earn gold, until you research specific techs (currency, or CoL for caste system). so you can earn gold with the slider, but you can't right now make gold on turn #5 the way you could with your trait is what i mean. now i couldn't feasibly run a citizen specialist on turn 5 anyway, but there are times when a 3rd city would come in awfully handy and that 2 :gold: from a citizen before those techs could make the difference. or when capturing cities early on. *giggle* when you capture enemy cities, while the population waits to be whipped away but has no tiles to work, they'd be earning you gold!

it's financial, you're right. i just think that part is really strong really early. it's only that overpowered (imo) for that short time period before those techs, but i wanted to throw it out there for thought.

About the +1 :) / specialist . Thinking about it , it 'could be' somewhat overpowered but its already kinda used in the game already in the form of HR civic. Whats the real difference in assigning a :) specialist and a :) military unit to ' ignore' the happiness cap ?
Benifits from the specialist , well sure , but HR gives you the benifit of having actual troops to defend/attack . Standard specialist arn't soldiers and can't dispach even a barbarian warrior . :lol:

right, but i can still get the benefit of troops besides the happiness without HR, i just don't have to build them until i need 'em *giggle*.

i guess i do see HR as quite different, since:
- you have to research Monarchy or build the Pyramids to have it as an option.
- you're making a civic choice to use it. you might not have other choices at first, but eventually you do.
- you pay civic upkeep for it, but more than that, you pay unit maintenance costs for the police.
- you have to find a way to keep things under control if you do need to use those police outside of the cities they were calming down.

so yes it lets you ignore the happy cap too, in its way, but it has downsides to balance it out some. i don't see any built in to the specialist system, if it counts even citizen specialists (the white-hat one :hammers: dudes) as specialists.

don't even talk to me about :yuck: issues! BtS is terrible! i am completely incapable of ignoring toxic green clouds so i just have a horrible time late game in BtS since the health problems are disgusting now :cry:. it makes my cities look so ugly. and you see how brilliant i am at posting ideas of my own, right? as in, i don't, cuz i'm not! all i do is type too many words about other people's ideas ;). i like that y'all are creative enough to give me stuff to think about.

i so totally don't think your religious stuff is a fair trade for no-anarchy but that's 100% personal bias so we won't even go there. spiritual is my favorite trait so i don't think anybody messing with it will please me. if there was a trait that all it was, was "No Anarchy", with no cheap buildings, no nothing else, that would have been my favorite trait in vanilla/warlords. now in BtS, with CR and Golden Ages making that a bit less powerful then yes i want the full spiritual and not just that part of it :lol:, but i mean you do not have any idea how much i love the existing spiritual trait.

This thread has taken on a life of its own - I love it! Keep those ideas coming.

I do like this idea... I am currently working on a MOD... I may have to use this.... IF I MAY!

By all means please use some, none, or all of my mod in your own work; acknowledgement would be nice though.

Give Protective a bonus for Air, naval ships.
Charismatic need a boost

Yes Cha probably does need a boost, and Pro getting better air or naval units might be nice, but Pro already has the most complex and varied bonuses.

melee/gunpowder are invasion troops, but mounted, armored, and helicopter units which do not get defensive bonuses are not?

That's exactly why I chose these three units to get the boost for Agg - they can't defend!

Although the ideas look interesting, I think a number of the traits have increased in complexity (although a few have stayed the same). What I mean by that is the number of benefits/double production buildings has skyrocketed...the OP's Financial trait gets 5 double production buildings! Also, 3 different traits give extra happiness...it's not as bad/repetitive as the UBs, but getting close.

Very good points; I agree this is undesirable, and am aiming to address this in the next version. Simplicity!

Personally, I've always been a fan of the minimalist style...give one or two strong, distinct, and utterly unique benefits, and then stop there. The final "balancer" would be the double production buildings...so some traits, like Financial is now, will have 0 or 1 because of the huge commerce benefit. Weaker "main benefit" traits would receive 2-3 double production buildings as an offset. I really don't like having more than 2 double production buildings, but sometimes that's all I can think of.

That's practically my philosophy too. It is difficult to decide how the main features of a trait balance though, and that's why I wanted everyones' feedback. For instance, how does my Imperialistic main (-25% exp for promos and +100% GG points) compare with Creative (+2 :culture: per city and +50% WW production); of course it's entirely dependent upon your situation, so it's very hard to say. For my next build, I am going to try and keep fast buildings and happiness generating buildings to a minimum, but of course will need everyones' feedback again.

Here's my $0.02 (~£0.01) concerning your suggestions:


Aggressive
Free Combat I Promotion on all Melee and Gunpowder Units
Double Production on Barracks, Stables

Charismatic
+1 Happiness in all Cities
-25% XP needed for Unit Promotions
+1 Happiness from Monuments, Broadcast Towers

Creative
+3 Culture in all Cities
Double Production on Libraries, Theatres

Expansive
+2 Health in all Cities
+50% Production on Workers
Double Production on Granaries, Harbors

Financial
+1 Commerce on Tiles with 2+ Commerce
Double Production on Customs Houses

Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+50% Production on Settlers
Double Production on Monuments

Industrious
+50% Wonder Production
Double Production on Forges

Organized
-50% Civic Upkeep
Double Production on Courthouses, Factories

Philosophical
+100% Great Person Birth Rate
Double Production on Universities

Protective
Free City Garrison I and Drill I Promotions on all Archer and Gunpowder Units
+1 Happiness from Walls
Double Production on Walls, Security Bureaus

Spiritual
No Anarchy
Double Production on Temples, Cathedrals

Very similar to the originals as you say. You've boosted Fin by one building but kept some other traits the same; I was always of the opinion that Fin is already the best trait (certainly with respect to being easy to leverage for maximum benefit), so I don't agree with you on this. I never liked the Firaxis idea of fast factories for Org, as that would sit far nicer on your Ind trait, which would do well with a late game boost like this (my honest opinion of the Firaxis Ind is that it's nice if you are already ahead or on par with tech, as otherwise there won't be any wonders for you to build; as such it needs some benefit if you don't have wonders available). In my own version, to counter for removing the fast factories from Org, I gave them fast Intelligence Agencies. That was almost an arbitrary decision.. something like airports or public transport would also sit reasonably well on Org. I like double speed monuments for Imp, but I still think it's the weakest trait here. Pretty good boost to Pro/Spi/Cre/Agg, too.

surely you mean +1 commerce in plots producing 4.

Oops - typo. You're right... it's commerce.


morale is the GG promotion that gives +1 movement point. i get that free on all melee, gunpowder, mounted, and armor units? charge me +200% civic upkeep and i'll still sign the dotted line. i'd actually start a war for once if i had that trait! :lol:

oh man, picture shaka's impis travelling 3 with mobility :eek:

I was going to do the free commando promotion! :eek:
Then I realized that I could move knights 9 spaces over enemy territory... I thought the +1 movement instead was more balanced.

I haven't play tested it yet... (I didn't give Shaka the trait - he's still AGG/EXP). You may be right - it's a work in progress. If it still turns out to be too powerful, I may have to dumb it down a little. My main concern is still that the morale promotion to mounted units part of it might be a little OP.

Very good points; I agree this is undesirable, and am aiming to address this in the next version. Simplicity!



That's practically my philosophy too. It is difficult to decide how the main features of a trait balance though, and that's why I wanted everyones' feedback. For instance, how does my Imperialistic main (-25% exp for promos and +100% GG points) compare with Creative (+2 :culture: per city and +50% WW production); of course it's entirely dependent upon your situation, so it's very hard to say. For my next build, I am going to try and keep fast buildings and happiness generating buildings to a minimum, but of course will need everyones' feedback again.

Here's my $0.02 (~£0.01) concerning your suggestions:



Very similar to the originals as you say. You've boosted Fin by one building but kept some other traits the same; I was always of the opinion that Fin is already the best trait (certainly with respect to being easy to leverage for maximum benefit), so I don't agree with you on this. I never liked the Firaxis idea of fast factories for Org, as that would sit far nicer on your Ind trait, which would do well with a late game boost like this (my honest opinion of the Firaxis Ind is that it's nice if you are already ahead or on par with tech, as otherwise there won't be any wonders for you to build; as such it needs some benefit if you don't have wonders available). In my own version, to counter for removing the fast factories from Org, I gave them fast Intelligence Agencies. That was almost an arbitrary decision.. something like airports or public transport would also sit reasonably well on Org. I like double speed monuments for Imp, but I still think it's the weakest trait here. Pretty good boost to Pro/Spi/Cre/Agg, too.

That boost to Financial was a mis-post...I had done some changes, then I thought I undid them all, but left that extra double-production building in there. My mistake.

Personally, I don't care for Industrious at all, but since so many people swear by it on these forums and say its a favorite and is strong, I haven't touched it yet. So, right now, it's unchanged. Introducing a new feature for it may be excessive, although an additional double production building may work. Personally, I liked the fact that Firaxis divided up the production-enhancing buildings between Industrious and Organized, and I will likely retain that demarcation.

The Imperialistic trait, for trial only in the Beta, is getting +100% on settlers and double production on monuments, making it the ultra early-land-grab trait. We'll see how the AI handles it...so, here is the modified Imperialistic trait:

Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+100% Production on Settlers
Double Production on Monuments


@GT_OKEZ: I don't think my trait suggestions or design motif is dull, but rather having two or three traits that affect happiness is (that was proposed on a previous page). Part of the constraints that I am working with is the design philosophy of the AMM (Antilogic Minimal Mod), which I tout as the mod you already know how to play. For that reason, no major changes to the "primary functions" of the traits have changed, just a few details for balancing. However, I don't think that is a drawback. One of the things Firaxis did well, I think, was giving a few solid benefits and no drawbacks. That way, it's not too complicated to figure out, but each trait is still distinct, has flavor, and different strategies associated with them. A perfect example is Philosophical and Financial, one which only has 2 benefits and the other with only 1. However, these strengths are in very different areas, despite focusing essentially on your economic well-being. What I don't want to see is the "Castle" of Civ traits...the building that Firaxis keeps giving oddball bonuses to try and make it worth using, but nobody selects it, so it becomes more and more complicated until it is sheerly ridiculous.

This design scheme was also used with great success for Civics. Plus, if all the traits have so many more double-production buildings or stuff like that, the pace of the game will change. My goal is to keep the same pace of the game while just rebalancing. Needless to say, that restricts my options just a little.

In any case, I'd want more feedback before making any more changes to my current setup.

Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+100% Production on Settlers
Double Production on Monuments

.



Imperialistic
+100% Great General Emergence
+100% Production on Settlers
Double Production on Jails

sounds better to me

an "imperalistic" leader throwing those who dissent to a war in jail sounds much more in line with imperialism, then monument building (more cultural or religious imo)

I believe monuments are a good fit, because Imperialism is not just about locking up dissenters, but glorifying the empire. Monuments reflect this sense of "national/cultural" pride.

How about:

Strategic:
half-cost / double-speed
Barracks, Castle, ICBM, fort improvements
+25% chance of Great general (25% less experience needed)

Charismatic:
+1 happy, +1 happy with coliseum
+100% national wonders
half-speed to build Palace, and alternative Palaces (including Versailles wonder).

Industrious:
+1 hammer on all tiles that generate 2 hammers or more
+1 gold on all tiles that generate 2 gold or more

Financial:
+25% gold in all cities (basically a free marketplace).
+5 free military units (units are volunteer privateers with equivalence to letters of marque).


Definitely don't monkey with Settler/Worker build speed, as they have been tweaked over every single expansion pack.
Overall keep traits kind of simple, generally about 2 bonuses, to keep it easy to exploit them.

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EDIT: Download is now available here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=7620
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I've been trying recently to come up with alternate, interesting and (crucially) balanced traits, through modifying xml files. My general ideas were a bit like this:

Industrious should give a boost to infrastructure and production, rather than allowing you to rapidly build 'creative', unique world structures (for example, how many world wonders did the 'industrious' Stalin build in real life? He even destroyed the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour).
Creative should inherit the boost to world wonder production.
Financial should be more about increasing :gold: than increasing :commerce:. Currently the bonus :commerce: can be channelled directly into your :science:/:culture:/:espionage: slider, and is often used as more of a scientific trait than a 'financial' one.
Spiritual should be more about religious culture and influence than its current behaviour of eliminating anarchy. Could an overtly religious civilisation truely convert - without 'anarchy' - to a different religion?
Expansive should allow you to expand faster, whilst also allowing you to expand into sub-optimal areas (by giving you a :health: boost to counter the :yuck: effect of jungle/flood plains etc).
Protective is a tricky one, but I wanted some element of 'pleasing' the population by protecting them, as well as being better equipped to repel invasions and counter-attack.
Imperialistic I imagined as a trait which depends upon war to extend a civilisation's influence. I suppose it could involve dominating others through trade in some way, but I haven't come up with a way of representing this element of 'imperialism'.

So, here's what I've come up with as a first draft. Bear in mind that it's a work in progress, and I'd like constructive criticism from experts and newbs alike! Behold:

Agg
- Double Speed: Tactical Nuke, ICBM
- Free Promotion (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units
Cha
- No Anarchy
- +100% production for National Wonders
- +1 :) for: Colosseum, Broadcast Tower
Cre
- +2 :culture: per city
- +50% production for World Wonders
- Double Speed: Theatre
Exp
- Double Speed: Settlers
- +2 :health: per city
- Double Speed: Granary, Aqueduct
Fin
- +15% :gold: per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
- +100% Great General points
Ind
- +1 :hammers: on tiles with 3 :hammers:
- Double Speed: Workers
Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency
Phi
- +100% :gp: points
- +2 :science: per city
- Double Speed: University
Pro
- Double Speed: Castle, Bomb Shelter, Security Bureau
- +1 :) for: Walls, Bunker
- Free Promotion (City Garrison I): Archer, Gunpowder units
- +50% Domestic Great General points
Spi
- +2 :) per city
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
- +10% :culture: per city

Criticism please! :)

I find most of these suggestions unneccisarly complicated and vastly overpowered - I find the OPs suggestions rather good, though.

I find most of these suggestions unneccisarly complicated and vastly overpowered - I find the OPs suggestions rather good, though.

It's just too irresistible for some guys to just try and throw about 4 or 5 different ideas together for a trait. Firaxis did well to only select one or two major features for each trait and then double production on a handful of buildings, never more than 3. I feel your pain...


The final quip I have is about double production buildings...I personally don't like to overlap them. For example, the Strategic trait just proposed above has double production on Barracks, which is also shared by Aggressive, and Castles (which is shared by the default Protective). Would these stack, or would you only get +100% production even if you have two +100% production buildings? I'd rather avoid that mess entirely by selecting completely unique double-production buildings for each trait.

@Goodgame: Don't you think your Industrious is a little strong? Take the Financial bonus, and then give them an equally beastly production bonus? I also don't quite understand why all Financial leaders suddenly endorse piracy.

I believe monuments are a good fit, because Imperialism is not just about locking up dissenters, but glorifying the empire. Monuments reflect this sense of "national/cultural" pride.

Poor Cathy Has a useless Cheap building lol

Yes it is essentially a recurrent golden age. Just throwing the idea out, and if the others can balance it why not? :*).

Letters of Marque is probably an inexact term, but think "Free Companies" in the sense that they are 'patriotic mercenaries' that are free to the state because they are profiteering from their acts against other nations. Or perhaps they are debt paupers paying off their debts through service? :*)


@Goodgame: Don't you think your Industrious is a little strong? Take the Financial bonus, and then give them an equally beastly production bonus? I also don't quite understand why all Financial leaders suddenly endorse piracy.

I still do't think any changes need to be made to traits. The fact that it would totally unbalence the game for people with good UB's and UU's. They are given traits that are a little more difficult to make up for it. Look at the people you are giving these traits to. Rome with quicker promotions, england gets 25% gold to start, then another 25 for market and grocer, and then another 65 for stock exchange. Not to mention Wall Street. I think victoria has expansive, so you could very easily have any size empire you wanted with quicker settlers.

This is a good thing, though, making civilizations more unique and specialized. If you want them to all be similar, then Civ 2 would be the best version for you.

they are different right now, this thread doesn't make them really make them different, in a couple cases I think they shared the same benefits in buildings, it mostly just makes the traits more powerful.

More powerful in certain aspects-> more specialized. Different combinations of these traits will yield even more unique civilizations.

...it mostly just makes the traits more powerful.

In certain cases yes, admittedly most of them... I'm playtesting the next version and generally toning it down, with less double speed/happiness producing buildings.

@Goodgame: Don't you think your Industrious is a little strong? Take the Financial bonus, and then give them an equally beastly production bonus? I also don't quite understand why all Financial leaders suddenly endorse piracy.

:lol:
But yes, Industrious with +1:hammers:/:commerce: on tiles with 2 :hammers:/:commerce: is fantastically overpowering considering the other traits. If you're going to have such a huge yield bonus, and want it to be playable, you're going to have to give all other traits some huge boost also.

@Antilogic (and others)
In keeping with the idea of minimalism, how do you think the following versions of Agg and Imp balance out:

Agg
- +100% Great General points
- Free Promotion (Combat I): Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted, Helicopter, Armoured units

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions

I thought my original Imp might already be too strong with both faster promoted units and faster great generals, whilst the double speed nukes for Agg leaders were unpopular. Considering that faster great generals is (I think) weaker than faster promoted units, I've tried above to move the GG boost to Agg. Bad move? Unbalanced? Just plain silly? What if the percentage modifiers were different, say, -35% exp for promotions?

How about Diplomatic:

+1 trade per city
+2 relations with 2 civs of your choice
Double production speed of Custom House.

Financial should have +1 :commerce: to windmills, workshops and waterwheels.

I'd also like to see Agg with +2 exp instead of a free promotion.

Expansive should have something like -25% cottage growth time.

Fin is good as it is :)

Why nerf Agg?

Agree with Exp.

that is an interesting idea, but for all units or just melee and gunpowder?

Just the usual ones who get the Strength. I don't like how an Agg player will get 3 promotions for 5 exp when everyone else has to wait for 10. They still get an extra promotion, but they have to have the same amount more.

Well, those promotions are Aggresive's only strong point, taking them away would leave it pretty badly crippled.

@knightowl: Yes, Catherine doesn't get much from the monuments under my system. On the plus side, she still gets the boost to settlers.

@King of Town: My design philosophy is to balance the traits independently of the civilization, and then balance the starting techs, UU, and UB independent of the traits. That way, we have two completely balanced sets of leaders and civilizations. A civilization can either be specialized in one area of the game if the leader traits and UU/UB line up for either war or building, etc. or generalized if they have strengths in multiple categories. It has the added benefit of balancing out the unrestricted leaders option, but that's not my cup of tea.

@Munch: That's a beast of an Aggressive trait...maybe if you were to move the great general emergence there, then only give the free promotion to melee and gunpowder units. My first concern, though, is that Imperialistic: you have half of the Charismatic trait with a double production building. That might strike others as a little weak.

Aggressive: I prefer double speed production of Barracks and Drydock more (or those bonuses plus the nukes bonus).

Creative: Now you just made Pericles the leader that was left out specifically for game balance.

Industrious: Wuh oh. Stalin and de Gaulle might be overpowered here. To a smaller extent, Augustus Caesar and Qin Shi Huang.

These traits would be good, but if these changes are made, then we'll have to do some serious rethinking of each leader's traits. I mean, look at Augustus! He has the godly Praetorians plus the Imperialistic trait AND more producion than ever before. :crazyeye:

These traits would be good, but if these changes are made, then we'll have to do some serious rethinking of each leader's traits. I mean, look at Augustus! He has the godly Praetorians plus the Imperialistic trait AND more producion than ever before. :crazyeye:

That's exactly what I mean. Rebalancing the traits has to go hand in hand with rebalancing the civilizations. Since I have boosted both Imperialistic and Protective, I have to examine the HRE and Rome carefully for balance.

I suppose if you guys are going to make new traits, and reassign the traits to leaders that won't make the overpowered I guess it would be interesting. It's basically just making a new game almost. I'd be interested to play your Mod Antilogic.

I like aggresive giving free XP. It kind of makes sense. The people that have aggressive are leaders of great armies ( great generals) and so starting with the same bonus as a great general seems to make sense. Maybe three XP since they were so great.

Nah, two experience points is a better idea to me.:)

When I think of Aggressive, I don't think of superior training (+2xp), but of just more "toughness" from its soldiers (free C1).

I reckon Changing Agg from Free C1 to +2XP is a nerf, when you compare it to the Cha Trait, sure the 1st 3 Promotions require 8XP for both Agg and Cha in this case.

The 4th Promotion onwards Charismatic has the advantage as they only require 5XP while Agg requires 7XP.

You Also Nerf Agg when Drafting they can only get a maximum amount of 3xp from drafted unit compared to Free C1 +2xP which is ALOT better because it gives you access to counter promotions like Shock, Cover and Pinch.

First, I want to say that I love your ideas for balancing the traits, I really founded some of them being obnoxoriously better than the another ones in the original game. However, I think that a little criticism should be added since there are some things that I think that you got them unbalanced:

Cha
- No Anarchy
- +100% production for National Wonders
- +1 :) for: Colosseum, Broadcast Tower

What does have charismatic has to do with have no anarchy? Me not understand :confused: I think that such a trait would be way better suited for an organized civilization. I would leave the trait like this:

Cha
- +100% production for National Wonders
- +1 :) for: Monument, Colosseum, Broadcast Tower < = A small measure to compensate the loss of no anarchy
- -60% to war weariness <= charismatic leaders are notorious for being able to convince their citizens of the need of a long war (Churchill did, Hannibal did, Pericles did, etc).
- Double speed: Barracks, jails <= Yet another measure to compensate for the lack of anarchy, charismatic leaders were quite known for the


Creative
- +2 :culture: per city
- +50% production for World Wonders
- Double Speed: Theatre
I do think that it is very, very overpowered. It is the combination of the best aspect of two already good traits (the double production to national wonders is not that useful since the true race is for the world wonders, you have not the same urge to have them). However, I do think that the bonus to world productions should stay because yep, creative civilizations have been prone to build such things. So, my revamped version would be this instead:

Creative
- +50% production of world wonders
- Monument, theater, colisseum and broadcast tower produces 1 extra :culture: each. Every creative civ has always shined when creating sculptures (monument), theater plays (theater), games (colisseum) or masss media (broadcasting tower). It can be a pretty neat help towards cultural dominance, however, it is not as powerful as the +2 base culture since it is tied to buildings (the early huge expansion advantage is lost).

Fin
- +15% gold per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House

I liked your reasoning behind the change from commerce into gold. However, I do think that this really overnerfs the trait. So I think that a little help would be great for this trait, see:
Financial
- +15% gold per city
- Double Speed: Market, Grocer, Bank, Harbour, Customs House
- +1 base :commerce: per trade route. Making trade routes useful for some civs, while at the same time giving a small boost to the trait, all in one!

Org
- -50% Civic Upkeep
- Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency
I really, really think that the no anarchy trait would belong way more to an industrious civ than to spiritual ones (organization lover civs would hate anarchy, right?). However, it is true that to combine both traits could be way too overpowered... so what about...?
Organized
- -25% Civic Upkeep Still having a civic upkeep reduction, but not as decisive in order to compensate for the lack of anarchy
- No anarchy For the reasons exposed above.
- Double Speed: Courthouse, Intelligence Agency

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
- +100% Great General points
I really think that this is the weakest of your modified traits. Completely useless unless you enter in a war, unlike the agressive trait you cannot actually prepare for a war with that trait. So what about boosting it a bit?

Imp
- Double Speed: Jail
- -25% Exp needed for unit promotions
- +100% Great General points
- -25% civic upkeep. A proper administration was crucial for imperialistic civilizations like the Romans or the British.
Another possible bonus could be a spionage bonus (the vast majority of the imperial civs were reknown for their intelligence services), or a production and commerce bonus in the capital a la bureaucracy, to reflect the "metropolis vs colony" relationship, althought I don´t know if to add these advantages would make this trait overpowered.

Spi
- +2 :) per city
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
- +10% :culture: per city
I completely agree with your reasoning: spiritual civs must recieve happiness and culture bonuses. However, I think that the way you implemented them made it a bit overpowered. I think of something along these lines:

Spi
- +1 :) per city
- +1 :) in every city with state religion. A way to give the trait a small nerf, and yet another reason for spiritual civs to don´t switch to freedom of religion automatically.
- Double Speed: Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals
- +10% :culture: in every city with state religion. The same reason of the happiness bonus.


Ind
- +1 hammer on tiles with 3 hammers
- Double Speed: Workers
Hmmm, it seems that the +1 on titles with 3 :production: is overpowered. However, a +1 on titles with 4 :production: seems like too little to me. So I think that this could be the way to solve it...

Ind
- +1 hammer on tiles with 4 hammers
- Double Speed: Workers
- +3 base hammer per forge, +6 base hammer per factory. The industrial revolution is when industrious civs have truthly shined trough. Modern industrious civs like Germany have been reknown for their highly efficient factories, old industrious civs like Rome were known for the skills of their metallurgic artisans.

Phi
- +100% points
- +2 :science: per city
- Double Speed: University
Just a minor nickpick, I would add libraries and observatories in the double speed bonus, but aside from that, perfect.

The rest of the traits (expansive, protective, agressive) are inmaculate, awesome and perfect just as you described. I love the idea behind this mod, so mad props!

@Ikael: I think you basically summed up most of the traits pretty well from what's on the board. However...

Charismatic: -60% is way too overpowered, -25% maybe?
You didn't finish the last sentence, but barracks should definitely be on Agg.
And I suggest getting rid of the +100% national wonder for a generic +1:) in all cities.

Creative: small thing but, but how about just double :culture: from them instead of +1 :culture:.

Financial: I'd go for +25%:gold:, no half price market/grocer/harbor, and +100% from trade routes instead of +1 :commerce:.

Organized: makes perfect sense, just maybe not the Intelligence Agency.

Imperialistic: no way, I'm completely against duplicating such a specific bonus. Maybe +25% :espionage: or -50% colony maintenance.

Spiritual: you hit the nail on the head.

Industrious: 4 :hammers: tiles are pretty rare, so most of this'll be coming from the forge and factory (which really need to be double speed).

Philosophical: I'm partial to +1:science: myself, but that'll probably be overpowered.

Good suggestions, though no real problems but Cha and Imp!

First, I want to say that I love your ideas for balancing the traits, I really founded some of them being obnoxoriously better than the another ones in the original game. However, I think that a little criticism should be added since there are some things that I think that you got them unbalanced:

...

- -60% to war weariness
- Monument, theater, colisseum and broadcast tower produces 1 extra :culture: each
- +1 base :commerce: per trade route.
- +1 :) in every city with state religion.
- +10% :culture: in every city with state religion.
- +3 base hammer per forge, +6 base hammer per factory.

Thanks very much for taking the time and effort to criticise the traits! I like some of your ideas, particularly moving "No Anarchy" to Org, I might have to use this...! A lot of your suggestions (the ones in bold above ^) are beyond the scope of XML modding though, as far as I know. However, I'm fairly sure it is possible to increase trade route yield by a percentage rather than a fixed amount of commerce.


PS. Does anyone know what "TradeYieldModifiers" really do, in the Civ4TraitInfos.xml file? The fields are for :food: :hammers: and :commerce:, and I think they increase by a percentage the amount you get from your trade routes.. but trade routes never produce :food: or :hammers:.. any clue?

First of all, thanks a bunch for listening to my suggestions! ^^ I am glad to see one modder that appreciates criticism and feedback. And now, onto the matter...

A lot of your suggestions (the ones in bold above ^) are beyond the scope of XML modding though, as far as I know.
Ouch :-( Then well, what about these alternatives?

- -60% to war weariness
Agh, I thought that it would be an easy thing. It is a pity, specially considering how a charismatic leader can reduce war weariness... Hmm, what about...?
a) relate the war weariness reduction to certain buildings (for example, make monument and broadcast tower to reduce war weariness in the case of a charismatic leader). In the same way that an extra happiness can be added to a building depending of the trait (charismatic), perhaps an additional fuction to it can be added to them depending of the trait such as this.
In the case that it is impossible, then I think that the happiness bonus should be tied to buildings (broadcasting towers, colisseums, etc) rather than be universal into every city (that would make it too much similar to spiritual, I think).

- Monument, theater, colisseum and broadcast tower produces 1 :culture: extra each
Hmmm, then, what about adding extra culture per specialist instead of building? Something along the lines of +1 :culture: per specialist?

- +1 base commerce per trade route.
This can be changed towards a +100% to every :traderoute:, right? In the case that it is too hard to mod, perhas it could be substituted by just one extra :traderoute: in every city.

- +1 :) in every city with state religion.
- +10% culture in every city with state religion.
Ouch. Then perhaps it would be better to left it as +2 :) in every city, although I think that a +3 extra :) and a +1 :) in every city instead of +2 would be great since it would take a builder (a religious builder) to reap the rewards of this trait fully.

- +3 base hammer per forge, +6 base hammer per factory.
So you cannot give base production via buildings? Hmmm... ok, so what about...?
- +1 :hammers:in tiles that produces 4 :hammers: or more, engineer specialist produces +2 extra :hammers:

Or

- +1 :hammers: in mines, plantations, pastures, oil refineries, fish nets.

Charismatic: -60% is way too overpowered, -25% maybe?
You didn't finish the last sentence, but barracks should definitely be on Agg.
And I suggest getting rid of the +100% national wonder for a generic +1 in all cities.
I don´t like too much the generic +1 :), since it makes it more similar to spiritual, thus losing its uniqueness, I think that the +100% to the national wonders is good as it is.
Still, I agree that I went a bit overboard with the war weariness reduction... I think it should be nerfed into -40% war weariness... still, I think that war weariness reduction should be the most defining bonus of this trait, period. Charismatic leaders have always excelled at boosting the morale in war times. (Hitler, Churchill, Pericles, you name it). Perhaps a double production to buildings like jail, which helps to decrease war weariness?

Creative: small thing but, but how about just double from them instead of +1 culture .
Hmmm, it would became way overpowered, me thinks, not to mention that buildings like broadcasting tower or colisseum does not generates raw culture per se (except some unique buildings). Also, I would rather spread the bonus along many buildings thus a) making it a trait for builders as it should be b) make its effect gradual.

Financial: I'd go for +25% gold, no half price market/grocer/harbor, and +100% from trade routes instead of +1 .
I think that +25% gold would be too much... but I liked a lot more the +100% for trade routes, so my versiou would be +15% gold, +100% bonus per trade routes.

Organized: makes perfect sense, just maybe not the Intelligence Agency.
Yup, you are completely right. Not to mentiont hat no anarchy AND less civic upkeep are already a hell of a bonus, no need for double speed buildings.


Imperialistic: no way, I'm completely against duplicating such a specific bonus. Maybe +25% :espionage: or -50% colony maintenance.
Hmmm, I agree, it lost its uniqueness... so, what about this:
I heard that in BTS, they added an extra upkeep to the manteinance of cities in another continent or in islands... so what about imperialistic gets out of it? That way, imperialistic civs would be great for oversea empires (like the British did), while organized would be great at building huge land empires.

Still, what I love about this trait is how many options there are. A +25% :espionage: bonus would be neat, but I am more prone to a production / commerce bonus on the capital, such as:
+1 :hammers: in every square with 3 or more :hammers:
+1 :commerce: in every square with 2 or more :commerce:
Or just give a +20% production and commerce bonus in the capital and call it a day.


Spiritual: you hit the nail on the head.
Yay! :D

Thanks for the attention!

PS. Does anyone know what "TradeYieldModifiers" really do, in the Civ4TraitInfos.xml file? The fields are for :food: :hammers: and :commerce:, and I think they increase by a percentage the amount you get from your trade routes.. but trade routes never produce :food: or :hammers:.. any clue?

I tried messing around with that variable and I wasn't able to get it to work properly no matter what I tried... (None of the traits appear to use it.) My first thought was that it modifies the gold recieved from trade routes, but I placed a 50 (for 50%) on it and it came back with some wild food bonus that didn't make any sense. So, then I modified it in the same manner as commerce modifiers... tried it several ways but couldn't ever get it to run without an error. So... I second this one - if anyone knows the answer to this, I'd love to know.

I tried messing around with that variable and I wasn't able to get it to work properly no matter what I tried... (None of the traits appear to use it.) My first thought was that it modifies the gold recieved from trade routes, but I placed a 50 (for 50%) on it and it came back with some wild food bonus that didn't make any sense. So, then I modified it in the same manner as commerce modifiers... tried it several ways but couldn't ever get it to run without an error. So... I second this one - if anyone knows the answer to this, I'd love to know.

I've tried it and figured it out. You can assign a bonus to your trade routes as a percentage of the standard commerce you get from them. This bonus can be in :food:, :hammers:, or :commerce: again. So, you can have a trait with +50% :commerce: on :traderoute:, but this looks slightly different in-game; I'll try and explain:

# Your trait is described (I think) as "+50 :commerce: on :traderoute:", note the lack of a percentage sign.
# In your city viewer, the value for your trade route yield is boosted appropriately, but when you hover over the value the description is now wrong. Say your trade route is worth 2 :commerce: ordinarily, boosted to 3 :commerce:; the hovering explanation which appears will explain how it is worth 2 :commerce:, but will not mention the +50% you get added on for your trait.

Things get even more interesting if you assign a food or hammer bonus to trade route yield. A late-game trade route generating 8 :commerce: but with a 25% :hammers: bonus for trade routes would give you 2 :hammers: on top of 8 :commerce:. Sweet!

I'm now trying to figure out if Industrious would work well with a percentage :hammers: bonus on trade routes. This would solve the initial problem of my Ind being far too powerful early game with the original "+1 :hammers: on 3 (or 4) :hammers:", and would get rid of what I now think is an annoying feature - having to choose your tile upgrades specifically to hit a threshold. Is it fair to say that a late-game (coastal, free market, corporation etc) city would generate between around 12 and 30 commerce from trade routes? If so, then 20% of this in :hammers: wouldn't be overpowering would it? So that's a total (I'm fairly sure that the bonus yield takes into account the trade route total rather than each individual trade route being eligible for a boost) of +2 :hammers: in a late game small city, and +6 :hammers: in a late-game powerhouse.

Thoughts?

Munch, I tried running it like the commerce modifiers but kept getting an error. Can you give an example of the XML change? This might be cool to play around with - sounds like a lot of changes could easily become OP'd though.

Munch, I tried running it like the commerce modifiers but kept getting an error. Can you give an example of the XML change? This might be cool to play around with - sounds like a lot of changes could easily become OP'd though.

You've probably just got some kind of syntax error, here's what you should have, for some trait in CIV4TraitInfos.xml:

<TradeYieldModifiers>
<iYield>10</iYield>
<iYield>0</iYield>
<iYield>100</iYield>
<