Anyone have the misfortune of buying Civ 4 Gold? It is horrible.

First off, it installs into a directory other than normal , apparently. Instead of c:\Firaxis.... its C:\2K Games\Firaxis. Fine, my problem for not looking. I could do without 2k Advertising on my computer... but my fault for not paying attention.. looks like another half hour install coming up while switching discs in and out like crazy

Second, No Shortcuts.... At All.... In the Start Menu. Aside from creating your own, you have no choice but to go into the directory and find the app itself. Popping in the CD doesnt help as it defaults to Warlords.

Third, NO mods at all seem to work. All of the 5 mods ive tried to load crashed the game. Even betterAI crashes it.

Fourth, Civ 4 Vanilla is borked, bad! It cant even load its own Mods right. I try loading America Revolution..... app restarts... Play now! is grayed out. I click Play Scenario..... it's all the same scenarios as default mod. How exactly am I supposed to play this sh!t?

Fifth, CDs? Is this the 1990s??? The put a damn spindle of CDs in here rather than do a little work and merge it into one DVD. Shoddy, 2k, very shoddy

Pretty freakin peeved

I don't have Civ4 Gold myself, but I will agree with one thing you said - CDs. This is the 21st century, and DVD-ROMS can be had for like $15 now. CDs should have been phased out by now.

You guys might be missing the point. The CDs might well be busted open from existing inventory and included with the new packaging. That's an entirely different prospect than burning a new DVD.

Secondly, to the OP... sounds like you need to call customer service and ask for tech help.

Wodan

I have to agree that it creates a very bad impression on me these days if something arrives on multiple CDs. If it fits on one CD, fine. Two CDs is pushing it - not too bad if the game is set up so you never have to switch between them, and as long as the installer actually works. The single most common problem I've had with installers recently is where cheapskates have used multiple CDs, and the wretched thing doesn't handle switching them over properly. I've had enough half installed screw ups to sort out to make me loathe multiple CDs.

There is no excuse whatever for more than two CDs - and it creates a bad image to have even that many.

It's done for compatibility reasons, though. Civ4 can be played on computers from before when DVD players were standard (granted, not ideally). That's why most software is still on CD. But gradually, more and more software is becoming DVD-only. Civ5 probably will be.

In ten years you'll be seeing people ask, "Why 3 DVDs? Just put them on (insert format of choice here)!"

It would be nice if you didn't have to swap CDs to switch between Warlords and Vanilla. But I think you're overreacting. It's not that hard to create Start Menu shortcuts. And a nice ask for help is always most effective.

then why not release it in both cd and dvd.

then why not release it in both cd and dvd.
$$

:scan:

lame excuse, many games are released in both formats. the cost of the media is factored into the price of the game. one could argue that the dvd would be even more cost effective since its pressed onto one disc vs several.

that said i think the whole discussion is silly. it's not like you have to deal with multiple cd's everytime you play, only the initial install.

still think your answer "$$" is lame

lame excuse, many games are released in both formats. the cost of the media is factored into the price of the game. one could argue that the dvd would be even more cost effective since its pressed onto one disc vs several.

The marginal cost of producing one more copy on DVD would be cheaper than the marginal cost of producing another copy on CDs. On the other hand, there are other factors involved:
1)Mastering that DVD is an additional expense.
2)The version on the DVD needs to be slightly different - the copy protection check wouldn't be the same. That means slight additional development costs as well as the possibility of additional development costs for each patch produced. Either that or no copy protection (my preference).

As the number of DVD copies you expect to sell increases, the costs get split up over a greater number of disks and eventually reach a point where the dual format release can become cost effective.

Then there is the problem of getting the stores to carry adequate numbers of both formats. For something that they expect to be a big seller, that isn't a big problem as they would already be allocating a fair amount of shelf and backroom space. Unfortunately, Turn Based Strategy is a relatively small market which can make the dual format release hard to justify.


All this is just a longwinded version of Wodan's answer
$$

That being said, whenever possible I do prefer one DVD to multiple CDs (I might even be willing to pay a dollar or two more for the convenience).

Grommit, approx 75% of the cost of any product is tied into the distribution and marketing costs.

Thus, say we split one release into two... one CD release into a CD and a DVD release.

Say we were going to make $1 US on a sale. $.25 is ours and will pay us for the manufacture. But now we have to spend it on two releases. So, we spend $.125 on a CD and $.125 on a DVD. We then sell each one. So, we make (200%) of $.125 on each, that's $.50 on each, or $1.00 total. Which, wonder of wonders, is the same as we would have made.

But, the question is, did it cost us $.125 to make both of these???

That's a question of production economics. In general, the more you make of something, the cheaper it is. So, if it cost us $125 to make 1,000 CDs (.125 each), in general it will cost us about $100 to make 500 CDs and $100 to make 500 DVDs (.50 each). And that's just the production cost. We also have the shipping/handling, the design labor, the production labor, and the overhead labor.

Wodan

Wodan, while i understand the principles of marketing, thanks for the explaination anyway, i think zypher said it best. given a choice most people with a dvd drive would prefer that format and many would be willing to pay an extra buck or three to get it. i certainly would.

It's done for compatibility reasons, though. Civ4 can be played on computers from before when DVD players were standard (granted, not ideally). That's why most software is still on CD. But gradually, more and more software is becoming DVD-only. Civ5 probably will be.

Doesn't really follow given that the European release of Civ 4 was on a single DVD only. That doesn't really suggest that they're trying to keep the (surely very few) people without DVD drives in the loop. I seriously doubt Civ 4 would work to any useful degree on a machine so old as to be without a DVD drive anyway.

The numbers you present Wodan, however interesting, do not support using CDs instead of only a DVD. A multiple release might be dodgy (though for all your numbers you've not allowed for the fact you need multiple CDs and only one DVD - if they really do cost the same amount to make it would be economically unsound to use CDs, ever. I doubt they actually cost the same to make for the simple reason that CDs are still made.)

So they haven't cared about making Civ 4 work on CD drives in the past, nor is it likely that they do now (or even that it would work). It therefore must boil down to being a cheapskate at the expense of convienience. Fine, I can see their reasons, but it results in a shoddy product, which does not impress me. It's the same as if you use PDF manuals and pathetic paper CD sleeves - cheaper yes, but it creates a bad impression, and often doesn't work as well.

Jeez, that just suck.
I mean CDs! Wow!

Gosh, what would you people have done in the days when one had to install a program with six or more floppy disks?

been there, done that and don't wish to go back.

what would you have done back in the days when a whole game fit on one floppy, 5 1/4 not 3 1/2. i've also sat around waiting for the tape to finish loading so i could play. doesn't mean i want to keep doing it that way.

Haha, when I was your age, we had to fast forward a casette tape drive to the right location to load in a program by source.

Yes, I remember that too from when I was a child, so to me, with experience of having to install a program with 6+ floppy disks, 2 CDs aren't a problem. If we were talking about 4-5 CDs, then I would start to think things were getting awkward, and with 6 CDs I would start to complain.

between all the gosh's and gee's it doesn't sound like you're going to win any contests by turning on the wayback machine.

I actually do have an issue about swapping out cds during install, there has been two times where the second cd, for whatever reason, was erroring out on a random file. Of course this messes the entire install up and you have to cancel.

That said, the fact that they come on cds is not a compatibility issue. They have the bonus behind the scenes material on a DvD.... yes that's right. Game on CD, Extras on DVD. They coudl have fit the entire damn game on that one DVD......

The only reason I can see for going the multi-cd route is that they wanted to keep the cD copy protection mechanism in place. No other reason makes sense

though for all your numbers you've not allowed for the fact you need multiple CDs and only one DVD - if they really do cost the same amount to make it would be economically unsound to use CDs, ever. I doubt they actually cost the same to make for the simple reason that CDs are still made.
A single DVD costs about 10x a single CD. Depends on qty but that's a rough estimate.

Wodan

A single DVD costs about 10x a single CD. Depends on qty but that's a rough estimate.

Wodan

Based on a quick search through the DVD/CD Duplication companies that come up on the first page of a Google search, it is 2-4x depending on the company.

Based on a quick search through the DVD/CD Duplication companies that come up on the first page of a Google search, it is 2-4x depending on the company.
You're missing quantity discounts. i.e., 10x CDs are cheaper than ten times the cost of 1x CDs. e.g., 100,000 CDs are much cheaper than 100 times the price of 1,000 CDs.

Wodan

Doesn't really follow given that the European release of Civ 4 was on a single DVD only. That doesn't really suggest that they're trying to keep the (surely very few) people without DVD drives in the loop. I seriously doubt Civ 4 would work to any useful degree on a machine so old as to be without a DVD drive anyway.

I play CivIV on a laptop most of the time. It has a CD drive. There might be a compatible DVD drive around here that I could use, but I'd have to swap out the CD drive to do so. And since the computer is owned by the company my husband works for... I don't like to muck around with it too much (even if it is currently a "spare" computer, if they wake up and hire more people I'll have to give it up... but I digress).

CivIV works great on the 3 laptop computers we have here... no DVD drive on any of them. :) And they aren't that old.
Amy

You're missing quantity discounts. i.e., 10x CDs are cheaper than ten times the cost of 1x CDs. e.g., 100,000 CDs are much cheaper than 100 times the price of 1,000 CDs.

Wodan

I was looking at units of 10,000 - none of the companies listed standard pricing for anything larger. But, unless there is a sudden major price drop seen in CD production that isn't seen for DVDs at very large quantities the DVD:CD price ratio will get narrower as quantities increase. The ratio for 100 DVD : 100 CD is substantially higher than for 10000.

Gosh, what would you people have done in the days when one had to install a program with six or more floppy disks?

Same here.Just installed Civ Chronicles (everything Civs 1-4 etc.) It took me
a half an hour. Tops! Is that really so tough? And by the way, just what advantage would a DVD have over a CD have, once it's installed, anyway?:confused:

I would imagine none, except not having to keep track of half a dozen CDs.

I would imagine none, except not having to keep track of half a dozen CDs.
They don't fit in the box they came in after the install? :lol:

DVDs have faster read times and DVDs have more error correction which means a tiny scratch is less likely to ruin the setup