Yes, yes. Here is the pre-game discussion thread for COTM43 and it's more than 2 hours to game time! :faint: Here is some pre-discussion discussion.

I've wanted to do this civ for some time. Being a West coast guy I've taken a few trips to Hawaii, and have always been impressed with the Polynesians and their ability to travel over vast stretches of ocean. Well before 1000 BC (!) they started expanding from Papua New Guinea East to Fiji, Samoa and Tonga, and then continuing on around 300 BC, over thousands of miles of ocean, way North to Hawaii, East to Easter Island and South to New Zealand, and all areas in between. This is over 2 millenia before Columbus discovered America!

So, wanting to set up a Sid level game, pushes the game towards an Archipelago style game, so why not set up a Polynesia based civ?

COTM 43: Polynesia!

Here is the COTM43 game info: (more discussion below)

Civilization: Polynesia
Rivals: 15 pre-selected.
Barbarians: Raging
Difficulty: SID
Land Form: Archipelago, 80% ocean, HUGE map.
Geology:3 billion years old, Wet and Warm.
AI Aggression: Normal

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm43large.jpg
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm43mini.jpg
(appearance of civ may change, but terrain is set)


Conquest-Class Bonuses:

You get 1 Settler, 2 Spears and a Curragh
Knowledge of Wheel
100 bonus Gold
An extra luxury resource on your starting land mass


Open-Class Bonuses
OK, 1 Setter and 2 Spears.

Predator-Class Obstacles:

Are these really necessary? :)


Yes, Sid level, and Huge map with 80% ocean archipelago. (Extreme Archipelago map!) Lot's of specks of land with stretches of ocean between.

Polynesia will be Sea-faring (duh!) and Agricultural. This matches the Netherlands, so I'm using their civ as a surrogate, but I may change the appearance a bit so the image may change. I still want to stay 'out of the box' capable, so there is limited changes I can implement.

To simulate the ocean going abilities of the Polynesians, you will be able to build Polynesian versions of the early ships that do not sink in Sea or Ocean. These will be special Curraghs, Galleys and Caravels (probably with Outrigger in the name!). In addition to allowing you free rein to scout out the oceans (and found wherever there is space), this will also eliminate the randomness due to using suicide Curraghs/Galleys, so please explore this big world and make your decisions accordingly.

2nd, it would be nice to trade goods over these distances, so there will be an additional Ancient Age technology called Polynesian Trade that allows trade over Sea and Ocean spaces. The AI will be inclined not to learn it, giving the player another early advantage.

About half of the AI will be 'normal' Sid level AI's with all the bonuses and abilities they 'normally' have. The remaining AI's will be minor tribes with some limitations; some will have a 'polynesian' flair or relation, and will have a 'benefit' to provide to the player, which will be 'revealed' in time. :p There are some areas with intense barb activity to overcome (if you desire.) And a few open spaces for you to locate and use.

So you will get early ocean travel and trade to counteract the Sid level bonuses. Is it enough? I guess we'll find out!

Any questions?

hmmm...
i've never played SID before, i think i'll give it a shot, why not!

it looks like we start on grassland tile. there is some marsh N-W and river seems to flow from some lake to the sea. i will try open-class so spears will move to nearby hills, but i think i'll settle in place.
with this location there could be only problem with shields to get 4turner, we shall see what's around.
hills around give a chance for iron and horses - maybe not really that important on SID, but there might be some retarded AI not far away(?).

i _will_have_ to read some threads about SID games again to get tips.
it could be nice but tough game (even if short one)!

Wow, this certainly looks like a fun game for the Christmas season!

This being the first time that I'll take on Sid and the first time I'll play Archipelago (up to now always preferred Continents, so no experience with this type of play yet), I might go for the Conquest-Class...

(Unless in an uncontrolled fit of bravery I download the Open save file...)

I hope we'll get an extra week for this one? My Christmas vacation extents up to Jan 6th, and I'd really like to make good use of that week...

Discussing the opening position: it looks like it leaves nothing to be desired!
No need to move the settler (I hope this time everybody aggrees...) and a 4-turner easily to be set up.

I guess, the first actions should be irrigating and roading the cow, then the wheat, afterwards roading and mining the BG and the gold. In order to quickly achieve all this, the first build should probably be a worker?! Or, if playing Open, a curagh to be able to quickly start trading?!

Judging from what can be seen of its shape, this landmass can at least hold 5 perhaps even 7 fully grown productive cities. I hope our rivals will start on smaller islands...

The swamp at 2NW looks a bit funny to me. Do you think it may hold another resource, like a fish or something? The Polynesians are quite good at fishing, so that would be the perfect bonus for us... (Ok, perhaps I am asking for too much now...)

Feels like being a child again: can't wait for Christmas! :)
Cheers, Lanzelot

it could be nice but tough game (even if short one)!

Hi pol1,
what makes you think it might be a short game? The map is huge, and Archipelago should slow down everything, too. And it is not to be expected that we loose early on, because it'll take the AI a while to get at us...! :crazyeye:
I expect a long-drawn struggle (no matter whether it'll be a win or a loss).

Lanzelot

well this time it will be real archipelago (will it?)? not like COTM41?

@Lanzelot
You are right! - AIs won't get us until astronomy/navigation, and we will be able to sail around the world, get contacts without any risk of sinking.
tech trading will be crucial.
those weaker civs and benefits that they'll provide are interesting.
4 turner depends on unexplored tiles (maybe some BG?).

Predator histographic challenge anyone? :joke:

It's pretty clear that worker to the cow is first. Almost certainly settle in place - I'd give some brief consideration to settling on the gold hill for the extra early commerce (could be important to get to Philosophy first), but without knowing whether the water to the N-NE is salty, I don't think I'd take the chance of moving off the coast. We'll see what the spreadsheet says, but priority has to be given to an early curragh or three so we need a coastal site, and I'm unwilling to waste a worker move to taste that water.

Research will definitely be a minimum run at Writing.

Wow, this looks like a really really fun game! :goodjob:

SID level in itself is enough to make it fun, the special Polynesian flavor sounds really cool, and the promises of extra treats of the map will make it even more fun. Gee, are we there yet?? :bounce: ;)

I will definitely play Predator, there is no other way :salute:. But histographic on a huge map, hmm, I think I'll pass ;). Unless that's the only option available for a win in the end. :scared: :lol:

I agree with Chamnix' assessments: settling in place, worker to cow, min run on Writing and building at least two early curraghs.

EDIT: Hmm, though it's rather tempting to play Open class, what with the Setter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setter) bonus. Man's best friend, has to be a really cool unit that! :p ;)

Horrey!! Good settings that ship does not sink. It removes random factor.
But "early ocean trade" looks as very strong benefit. May be for predator this special function and extra settler may be omited? /But it does not mean, that I will play predator.../
Question: will this "minor AIs" described somehow or it will be "absolute surprise"?

Oh, gosh, this looks like so much fun... I am currently playing my first game on Emperor, so I'm sure I'll get spanked, but I really want to try this. I doubt I'll have time to finish this, I have only ever finished one xOTM in time, and that was a small map, so I will probably compromise and do the QSC, just to give it a try, even if I don't have a chance to finish. Will definitely have to play Conquest class, though.

wow. This looks like fun.

Will they still have the swiss mercs? I assume not and the polynesian version of the ships will replace them.

Even on predator, this is probably easier than a normal SID game - 80% arch will slow the tech pace considerably and unsinkable curraghs/galleys, plus sea/ocean trade early will give the polynesians a large advantage. I'm assuming that we will be alone on the island as well, and we start with a 4 turner and what looks like at least a 3 turn worker factory - depending on shields/freshwater, maybe a 2 turner or another settler factory.

Boy, that start looks great for a 20K city, doesn't it? Cow/wheat, 4 hills - lots and lots of shields once engineering comes in.

Boy, that start looks great for a 20K city, doesn't it?

I was thinking that too, but I think I'm too chicken to try it - if you go for a couple Ancient Ages wonders and miss, then I think it would be too tough to recover.

Anybody given any thoughts to victory condition. It would seem that Diplomatic might be the easiest and Domination/Conquest the hardest given the large numbers of free units each AI will have. Either of the Cultural will also be difficult with the production discounts available to the AI.

I see a few questions to clear up:

I hope we'll get an extra week for this one?How about 2 extra weeks? :) Submissions due Jan 15th.

Almost certainly settle in place I have configured the starting location to be coastal, on fresh water, with Despotism 4-turner Settler Factory easily obtainable. On SID you'd want nothing less.

But "early ocean trade" looks as very strong benefit. May be for predator this special function and extra settler may be omited?Extra settler (and 2 spears) is not available for Predator. Special early ocean trade IS available for all classes once you've learned the new Tech 'Polynesian Trade'.

Question: will this "minor AIs" described somehow or it will be "absolute surprise"?Some of these special minor tribes will be based on Polynesian folk lore, so they will be something of a surprise. I also plan to have some European civs as minor tribes, but imagine the impact they might have! I'm thinking about giving them a special ship class to allow them to move freely around the map at the beginning of the Middle Ages (not transport, just explore and bombard - perhaps an early version of privateer). And I'm thinking about including England and Spain, and have them in perpetual At War status. THAT would capture some of the flavor of the period when Europe was exploring the Pacific! I'm posting this later part here to see what your thoughts are, since these would be changes to the AI performance.

Will they still have the swiss mercs? I assume not and the polynesian version of the ships will replace them.No swiss mercs for the Polynesians! :) I'm just using the Dutch as a placeholder, since they have the same Sea-Faring and Agricultural attributes. For a Polynesian UU I'm thinking about a modified AA or early MA unit with amphib capability; could be useful to gain a beach-head on an island swarming with AI units! This gives the player a lot of control on when to start a GA.

if you go for a couple Ancient Ages wonders and miss, then I think it would be too tough to recover.The player is at a huge disadvantage to build AA wonders - the AI only needs half the shields to build them, and will likely research the Tech faster. The only exception will be The Great Lighthouse - an AI building that would overcome much of the early scouting advantage of the Polynesians, so I'll take it out of play. After all, I don't think you'll need it, and I don't want the AI to have it.

Anybody given any thoughts to victory condition. It would seem that Diplomatic might be the easiest and Domination/Conquest the hardest given the large numbers of free units each AI will have. Either of the Cultural will also be difficult with the production discounts available to the AI.

Diplomatic is almost certainly the least difficult (I refuse to call it "easiest" ;)). I would think 100K (IIRC actually 160K on huge) would be the most difficult since you pretty much have to take out all AI and still have enough time to :whipped: culture on an 80% archipelago map (limited effect of Pyramids/Temple of Artemis, limited land in general).

20K is very difficult as well. As civ_steve mentioned:

The player is at a huge disadvantage to build AA wonders - the AI only needs half the shields to build them, and will likely research the Tech faster.

It certainly is possible (see HoF Gauntlet Sigma (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243453)), but in the HoF, if you missed the Colossus, you could just go on to the next map and start again. With only 1 chance to play this, I think it's too risky.

Spaceship should be doable assuming you survive to the Modern Age and aren't woefully behind in tech. I typically find domination less difficult than conquest on harder levels because you can avoid an AI or two.

I think I'll be going into the game playing for domination, but I certainly will not hesitate to bail out into diplo or space.

Marsden, are you reading this? This is more like it.

I agree with Chamnix's assessment: 20k would be excellent, but also a huge unknown about wonders here. Some games just go unlucky, and with the additional variant rules, I really don't know.

Who is up for taking over the world on Predator? :king:

Predator domination sounds like a nice plan to me (with the obvious cop-outs if they appear ;)).

Predator domination sounds like a nice plan to me (with the obvious cop-outs if they appear ;)).

Exactly.

So, Chamnix, you in? :smoke:

Sure - I'm already trying domination, and once you start playing Predator, you can never go back :cool:.

Good then. :)

As for the starting position, I believe that it looks like the start is on a thin landbridge connecting two halves of an island. I think the NE and SW are both salt water.

Like the others, I think worker -> cattle (irrigate) and settle in place is the obvious opening move, unless the worker reveals something radically different than what we expect.

The raging barbarians shouldn't be a problem once the colonization phase is over. Until then I would think simple caution will do the trick.

The starting traits are perfect, and getting the contacts of all the 'real' Sid AIs will be key. Being the broker will allow tech parity the whole game, something that is never so certain on regular maps (usually tech leaders know each other).

Probably easiest on Diplomacy victory, but going for Domination will hurt the chances of that. Conquest will definitely take longer than Domination: the unit amounts will be high, very high.

Actually, mining the cow would make more sense to me since being Agricultural we'll have 5 fpt anyway from size 2 up, working the cow and the wheat. It will take 5 turns to grow to size 2 at any rate, and then 4 turn growth after that even without irrigations.

Actually, mining the cow would make more sense to me since being Agricultural we'll have 5 fpt anyway from size 2 up, working the cow and the wheat. It will take 5 turns to grow to size 2 at any rate, and then 4 turn growth after that even without irrigations.

Ah right, the wheat. I agree then.

Sure - I'm already trying domination, and once you start playing Predator, you can never go back :cool:.
I am affraid predatior on Huge map will take a lot of time. 2 settlers may sit on different sides of island and scouting will be lot faster. Still thinking.

It depends on what other tiles we have available, but I think I will most likely irrigate the cow. Long-term, I want another city to use the wheat. Short-term, if the cow is irrigated, then at size 2, you work the cow and BG at +5 fpt. You get the same shields you would have gotten from mining the cow and working the wheat, plus you get 1 extra commerce from the river (I don't think the wheat is on the river).

Incidentally, if the wheat is not on the river, then we can't irrigate it immediately, but you can irrigate it if you irrigate the cow in the opposite direction :confused:?

EDIT - and at size 3, I guess we could be working irrigated cow, wheat (possibly unimproved for a while), and the gold hill.

Stop confusing me! :p

The wheat is indeed not on the river.

I see the merit of both ways really. For predator, it is a harder choice. On another mode, I would instantly use the wheat for a second city (with the bonus settler) and irrigate the cattle.

I think it would be more profitable to decide on a build order before mine/irrigate the cattle. I also want to figure out if the wheat must be used to accomplish a 4 turn factory if the cattle is mined. If so, the cattle has to be irrigated IMO. On Sid, cities can't be hogging two food bonuses unless the land is incredibly fertile, which it won't be. Share the wealth, so to speak.

The Wheat is not on the river, but we can irrigate it right away since the town itself will spread the fresh water to that tile.

I see Chamnix' point though, I guess spreadsheets will decide.

Yep.

Anyone notice this too?

An extra luxury resource on your starting land mass

We've got a luxury! :)

I won't be going for it, but I completely disagree that 20K is all that tough. You don't need Collosus to get 20K. The big issue is if you miss the GLib - then you have problems - but you should be able to get MoM, Glib and maybe even HG, plus all the MA wonders. My guess is that you can get a 20K date in the 18-1900's. I don't think you'll have to worry about the AI getting the space ship - the AI winning on 100K may be an issue, though.

I think if you want to go 20K, you don't settle on site - you move a couple a way and make your 2nd city the wonder city. That way you can prebuild with the palace for all your wonders, which means you can time your builds so you lose fewer wonders to cascades.

I'm thinking of playing predator for the first time and trying the domination challenge. I like the idea of a UU that can do amphib invasions early - the biggest problem I think you run into on an 80% water map is that the AI has SO many units you can't find a landing spot.

Sid, eh? :) I've been a little burned out on civ recently but this game sounds like too much fun to pass up.

All the proposed changes--amphibious UU, super-ships early on, etc.--are blowing my mind with possible strategies. Will the curragh replacement have transport ability also?

I figured we will be alone on our island, but with the spear bonus for the open class, I wonder if we'll have a minor tribe on our island. :hmm: Maybe the spears are just for barb control and MP duty, but perhaps not...

I'm too proud to go Predator and pass up the bonus settler. ;) :crazyeye: I'm not experienced enough at SID to be competitive for an award if I play Predator.

This is probably going to be a "just win, baby" game.

The Wheat is not on the river, but we can irrigate it right away since the town itself will spread the fresh water to that tile.



Thanks - that makes a little more sense.... Another question - if we settle on the spot, will walking from the town to the wheat count as crossing a river?

SID COTM !? :crazyeye:

Wow...

I was not able to play COTM 42 due to RL, and i was looking forward to play COTM 43 because of the christmas extra time :D

However, now i really must consider, if i want to be challenged THIS was. I normally play on emperor, but i have had a good game in demi-god COTM 38. However it was very time consuming for me, and now it is SID...

But i like the ploynesian approach and the benefits they have. I'm definitely not sure if i can ever win this one, and a huge map will demand a lot of efforts from me.

Well, 70% chance, that i give it a try, but it would be very hard.

I think it should not be necessary (or even possible) to build the GL, as it was in COTM 38. Perhaps this will be my first game without even a single wonder. Normally i am going to a domination or conquest victory. I think i have to use a different strategy now, perhaps diplomatic?

Christmas is not for relaxing this year... :D

Chamnix, I tested it for you and there is no movement penalty.

For anyone's use, I compiled a scenario that replicates the start. I used tile surfing to guess at the radius around what is visible. Past that, I made it up for the sake of having something there.

It might be useful for further questions or testing starting strategies for Predator (simply MM the capital: once you get a second city, it is null of course...)

I formatted the land with the worst case scenario in the 21 tile radius of the capital: that is, only regular grassland, no more resources, etc.

Cheers. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104555/cotm43test.SAV

We've got a luxury!Well, it would only be fair after giving all those extra luxuries to the AI ;) I should have said a 'bonus' luxury ...
Will the curragh replacement have transport ability also? Interesting, but no.

2 settlers may sit on different sides of island and scouting will be lot faster.For this COTM, all land units will start on the starting space; the Curragh the Conquest class gets will be in a nearby Coastal space.

This sounds like it will be a great game, I´ll definietely give it a try! :)

Although the special rules reduce the difficulty a lot, even more than in the last Sid-Cotm, which "only" had a heavily rigged map in our favour. That was Cotm 19 btw, where the predator equalizer was the loss of the agri trait. Since we have to play a huge map this time, I´m glad for the extra help though.

Concerning the starting site, could someone with foggazing skills please have a closer look at the tiles 3SW and W/NW? My rusty old Eyball Mk. I scanner says it might both be wheat. I don´t want to appear greedy, I´m just curious, honestly! ;)

Settling on the spot seems like a good idea, although I´m usually a very big fan of founding on a goldhill. The latter gives an immediate commerce boost and an extra food. In this special case though, we can use the gold tile constantly in the 4 turn cycle if we also work the wheat so the waste would be limited. I also agree with Chamnix that being coastal is important and that we don´t want to waste a worker turn to find out about the northern water.

For a victory condition, I´ll go directly for the chickens way to Diplo or Space. I just don´t have the nerves for a huge sid slugfest, sorry. :blush:

Heh, I'll be... I definitely think you're right, there something on both those tiles. Wheat looks to be the most likely option, and the outlines are similar, but I'm still not quite sure, doesn't seem to be perfect fits...

I dont' see the extra wheat, but what the heck.

Settling your capitol on a gold hill is generally a waste, because the capitol square will always produce at least 4 gold anyway, and with a seafaring civ, the capitol will produce 5 (4 under despotism). Other cities on gold is good, though.

I see nothing in the SW I'm afraid. I had previously seen the item W,NW, but discounted it as a graphical artefact - it didn't seem to match the wheat in full view. But looking at the image closer, I see that pixels at the edge of the fog get rendered differently from those clear of the fog, so that might account for it. It does seem to be in the correct position relative to the southern corner of the tile.

Are there any moo experts who would like to say for sure whether or not our bovine friend stands on a bg?

While I am sure we have at least a 'good' start, as this is Sid, I don't see anything substantial enough to confidentally suggest there are additional food bonuses in the first ring fog. If we do -- great, but I'm not counting on it.

Also, I'd like to point out the tremendous benefit of starting with a Curragh without sinking penalties in Conquest class. Especially with having Alphabet, and with everyone isolated, you will be able to trade for all the starting techs if you build a second curragh. Also remember that 'The Wheel' is not a common starting tech (among 'real' civs, not the weaker modded Polynesian types). Add in your 100 gold, and you've got an excellent start. I think that it will play out similar to a more standard Emperor start, at least until you get a little further on. It will only be like Sid at all if you try to war with any of the real Sid AI.

Ignoring any additional bonuses, here is what I think is most appropriate for the start. Obviously, this is Predator non-Cultural, as the bonuses on the other levels will add a different element to the opening moves.

Since you have the cattle and the start square, you can have initial growth in 5, with 2spt*5 = 10. A worker is 10, so you time it 5 turn growth/5 turn build. The same turn you complete the worker, you will complete the irrigation on the cattle. Thus, 6fpt -> 7fpt... enough to cut a turn on growth. Then, a curragh is 15 shields, so once you grow to size 2 again, you have 9 of 15 shields. Why 9 of 15? The governor will automatically add the BG during the growth, giving you 3spt instead 2spt as it grows. So with the BG, +3spt for 0 shield overflow on the curragh. 6 turns for your curragh in all. Production -> Granary.

Worker moves: Worker #2 goes cross-river to mine BG instantly. 3 turns before the curragh, worker #1 will finish the road on the cattle, then cross the river to the wheat. Two turns before the curragh, start irrigation on the wheat. One turn before the curragh, the borders will expand, giving an excellent idea of where both workers are going next.

Now that you have another nice worker and a curragh, we'll make this thing into a factory. Should be growth in 2, granary in 20, 3450 BC.

The turn after the curragh is done, the mine on the BG is done, and a road is started. Okay, interturn we move to 4 spt, so in 3400 BC: growth in 1, granary in 14. The governor auto assigns the hill (again, assuming no extra bonuses). Thus, we get one turn of 5 gpt on top of the 4 shields we had. We have 9 of 60 shields for the granary. We switch the gold hill worker -> wheat on the same turn irrigation completes, so we move 9fpt -> 13fpt, but 5spt -> 4spt. Growth in 3, Granary in 13, 3350 BC. Road started on wheat. Since it is not crossing a river between the wheat and the city, the road may take 3 turns, but we will save one turn of movement, plus more later. But for now, net output of 2 turns spent.

3250 BC...17 of 60 shields on granary. Road on BG finishes. Worker to gold hill. 3200 BC...gain the gold hill on the growth, 4spt -> 5 spt. 22 of 60 shields on the granary. Worker #1 to the gold hill, Worker #2 starts on a mine.

We've been playing with the luxury rate the whole way. Going into 3250, it should be 40 percent. In 3250, we can turn it to 30 percent anticipating the growth, as the gold hill will make commerce 8cpt -> 12cpt. In 3200, we are making 7gpt. 3150...worker #1 starts the mine on the gold hill.

The capital goes to size 5 and picks up another tile in 3000 BC. This is really where it is guesswork tile-wise. That is also why I assumed the worst case scenario here. At worst-case, the governor grabs another hill inter-turn; 5spt -> 6spt. 14fpt -> 15fpt. Since we have the two food bonuses right now, I keep the hill. In all, 43 of 60 shields on the granary.

2850 BC: the granary is complete, the mine is complete (6spt -> 7spt, 12cpt->13cpt), 1 turn to growth, 5 turns to a settler. Both workers start to road the mine.

Luxury rate to 40 percent at this point as the capital turns to size 6.

2800 BC: We've picked up another hill. 7spt -> 8spt. 15fpt -> 16fpt. Growth in 3, settler in 3. (4 turn settler)

2710 BC: The road on the hill completes. Both workers go about their business, either improving more parts of the 21 tile radius, or adding roads to either direction for settler.

2630 BC: First settler. Growth in 2, settler in 5. Size 5 (7spt, 15fpt, 13cpt), since the settler completed as the size went to 7. Settler can go found new city, blah blah blah.

2590 BC: Pick up another hill again and 7spt -> 8spt. 15fpt -> 16fpt. 15 of 30 shields on the next settler. Growth in 3, settler in 2. Current settler ready to found city at CXXC spacing.

2550 BC: Can found new city at CXXXC spacing.

2510 BC: Complete settler (4 turn settler), fall to size 4 (7spt, 11fpt, 12cpt). Adjust sliders accordingly. Capital has its growth in 1, settler in 5.

2460. Gain a hill. 7spt -> 8spt, 11 Growth in 2, settler in 4.

2430 BC: Can found new city at CXXC spacing.

2390 BC: Can found new city at CXXXC spacing. Pick up the 2nd regular hill again going to size 6 (+1spt,fpt).

2350 BC: Settler complete (4 turns). Fall to 2 turn growth, 5 turn settler. Switch hill -> wheat. 1 turn growth, 5 turn settler.

2270 BC: Can found new city at CXXC spacing.

2230 BC: Can found new city at CXXXC spacing. Go to size 6. Gain regular Hill #2. Growth in 3, settler in 1.

2190 BC: Settler complete (4 turns).

Let's stop there, as it is rather obvious how it continues.

Sample screenshot:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/104555/cotm43test.JPG

Post-analysis comments:

Set up the 4 turn factory anyway, but too few readily available shields. Time consuming to mine hills; had to heavily use regular 1f,1s hills when wheat+cattle are irrigated and used for capital. Mining+road on gold hill is critical.

Unclear how the situation would be exactly once the second city grabs the wheat. More suppositions and experimentation must be done on this. Would have to change MM perhaps once the wheat fell to city #2, as there would be less food. Therefore, slightly different tile selection?? Additionally consider extra food bonuses just to the east: may let wheat stay on capital longer if city #2 is east?

It would be a huge help to have some good tiles in the 21 tile radius in the fog...either food bonuses for new cities, or simply tiles that give shields for the capital, such as BG. As stated previously: the output of +1spt in Despotism for each hill, considering the worker time necessary as a non-Industrious civ (12 turns w. 1 worker, 6 turns w. 2), is not worth it. So the hills are not acceptable during the early sequences.

My conclusion is that we will have more shields once our borders expand in 3500 BC, so my situation with a lack of shields is unlikely. Perhaps this will make the irrigate wheat, irrigate cattle plan fine in the long run.

Excellent commerce just from the tiles we can see for sure. It gained us a lot of gold. 2350 BC = break 200 gold, +8gpt (with the new 2 cities producing generally average commerce), even with 40 percent luxuries. As we get more cities and those cities grow, this commerce will even increase.

The 4 turn settler factory can be set up perfectly without much MM at all without the curragh after the worker in the build order. Yet the curragh is indeed very important. A second, third, fourth city... placed on the coast can take care of producing additional curraghs, but there is no question that the capital must make one before then.

Conquest class has this taken care of with their bonus curragh, and can have a perfect settler factory by 2700 BC. Also, both Open and Conquest players have a second settler, so that curraghs are not so much a worry. I believe Open players could go without building a curragh in the capital at first, as their second city could be founded on a coast, and start building curraghs. But with Predator, there is none of that, so we have to delay our settler factory for the curragh. So we have to work a little bit to get our factory running smoothly. I stress once more that the real situation has to be better (for the capital) than what I experimented with. But for what we know without having the actual save to play, this is it.

Unless I made some severe calculation mistake here, I feel that this is a decent look at the essence of the start. Hopefully it was helpful to someone. :crazyeye:

-Elear

Looks like a good plan Elear :goodjob:! As you pointed out, that is a worst case scenario, and it certainly could change. For example, if there is another BG in the fog, then it might make sense to ignore the wheat for a little while, work an extra BG (mined at some point), build the granary faster and run the settler factory at a smaller size. I'll wait until I actually found the city before I spend too much time planning :).

Just one item I feel a need to correct in case there are other obsessive-compulsive people like me out there who will do anything to save 1 coin:

We've been playing with the luxury rate the whole way. Going into 3250, it should be 40 percent. In 3250, we can turn it to 30 percent anticipating the growth, as the gold hill will make commerce 8cpt -> 12cpt. In 3200, we are making 7gpt. 3150...worker #1 starts the mine on the gold hill.


Commerce/happiness are calculated before growth, so having the governor assign the citizen to the gold hill on growth doesn't permit you to adjust the luxury slider. You are correct that you can turn the slider down on that turn, but it is actually because the worker completes the road on the wheat during the IBT (worker turns come before commerce), and you have a citizen assigned to the wheat so your commerce goes from 8 to 9 :).

Anarchy 4-turner Settler Factory easily obtainable.
:eek: That's special


;)

:eek: That's special
;)

:lol: Nice catch.

But that does hint to us that we will get the shields we need. :goodjob:

Commerce/happiness are calculated before growth, so having the governor assign the citizen to the gold hill on growth doesn't permit you to adjust the luxury slider. You are correct that you can turn the slider down on that turn, but it is actually because the worker completes the road on the wheat during the IBT (worker turns come before commerce), and you have a citizen assigned to the wheat so your commerce goes from 8 to 9.

Darn, you caught me. :blush:

p.s. - I understand your obsession!!

The same turn you complete the worker, you will complete the irrigation on the cattle. are you sure, that early worker is so beneficial?

I think an early worker might well pay off down the road, since we have such fast growth. But I'm a bit skeptical about the early granary. Sure it gives us a very early 4-turner, but with extreme archipelago chances are we won't be able to fit in that many towns before Map Making anyway. And getting into the tech loop, we need contacts, the more the merrier. I want curraghs, I'm thinking three or so before I start looking at other builds, except maybe a worker and a warrior.

I wasn’t real thrilled to see this is a SID game as I still have difficulty on emperor.:sad: After last month’ spanking I thought I would pass on this, but the game sounds so neat that I have to try it. I’ve read the stories on the boards here about 100+:eek::faint: stacks and such on SID soooooo, I’ll play nice and just try and survive.
Being the little girl that I am, I’ll play conquest class. Great strategy discussed so far.
Let the flogging begin!

:eek: That's special


;)No, the game isn't changed THAT much! :) Changed to Despotism.

So, are you playing this month, Mathilda?

I think an early worker might well pay off down the road, since we have such fast growth. But I'm a bit skeptical about the early granary. Sure it gives us a very early 4-turner, but with extreme archipelago chances are we won't be able to fit in that many towns before Map Making anyway. And getting into the tech loop, we need contacts, the more the merrier. I want curraghs, I'm thinking three or so before I start looking at other builds, except maybe a worker and a warrior.

Curraghs certainly! But here's where the difference is...once I start getting 4 turn settlers, I will have more cities. Some of these will be coastal and start making curraghs. The non-coastal ones can make military. Both types can be MM down to size by making workers, and additional sites with food bonuses will be settlers/workers. Perhaps my contacts will be a bit slower at first, but the production/commerce benefits are huge, assuming there is enough land in our starting island.

And unless civ_steve wants us to lose, there will be. Or..there better be. :mad:

Of course, if we get one of those 'minor' AI on our island, it will be a bit different. ;)

Good analysis.

Another couple of things: I think we are going to have plenty of fresh water - the water north is a lake, because that's where the river is coming from.

From what I have seen of huge maps, I would venture we will have between 2 and 4 cows and wheats within, I dunno, 10 tiles of the capitol. That may be the lower end cause this is a map with a lot of water, but still. We'll have plenty of food. Granaries will be key - we will all want lots and lots of workers and settlers. The OCN for a huge map is 36 - on Sid, there's a lot of corruption, of course.

I wouldn't worry too much about keeping to a strict CxxC - there's unlikely to be an AI on our island - if there aren't alone, the game will be relatively short ;) - and distance corruption is pretty low. I guess what I mean is don't worry about the spacing over good tiles - go CxxxC if it means a food bonus or a river or something.

I suspect we'll even be able to have most of a ring, too, which is nice for a seafaring civ.

Looking more closely, I agree about the lake. Regardless, there's not really a needed change in the basic opening outlined.

I wouldn't worry too much about keeping to a strict CxxC - there's unlikely to be an AI on our island - if there aren't alone, the game will be relatively short ;) - and distance corruption is pretty low. I guess what I mean is don't worry about the spacing over good tiles - go CxxxC if it means a food bonus or a river or something.


Well, in COTM38 (archipelago, demi-god) I was building my empire very tight, because I wanted a strong navy and military to capture some islands. However, I was very surprised of the large amount of AI troops. As this game is SID, they will have much more military, and that is scaring me. I don't know if i should dare to invade a SID-AI at all... So I'm dealing with the idea to use a very loose strategy for my cities. I would not have a large military, but I don't want to fight too much, and the AI is not very good at invading an island. Moreover i want to achieve a diplomatic victory, so it is good to stay peacefully.

On the other hand, some of the "minor" AI, that don't get the full SID-strength could be an interesting military goal, so a good developed military could be very handy.

I know it's very difficult to say while we don't know how large our island really is. Nevertheless I would be grateful if some players could give me some tips for the opening moves, regarding city spacing.

Is OCP useful? Our island is our castle and we want to have a well developed empire, especially economic. Especially with a large island, this strategy could pay of. Very funny, I would never think about OCP on emperor, and now on SID I do...:crazyeye:

Would you consider to build some "false cities", which can be abandoned at a point, where the "real" cities can grow beyond size 12?

Or is it really the best to build in a CxxC to CxxxC pattern, which allows faster producing and a larger military. But what to do with that military, if you are such a SID-chicken like me...:blush:

well, you cannot possibly build enough units to be even with a SID AI. The keys to invading SID homelands are:

1) Have muskets
2) Find an backwards AI without resources.
3) Drop 20-30 muskets on a hill with a settler.
4) Rush walls and a barracks in a new town
5) Deal with huge numbers of archers impaling themselves on your muskets.
6) Get about a leader a turn from elite victories, making armies and send them out to pillage.

It is an extreme arch map, but it's also huge. I think there's we are likely to get room for a fair # of cities and then we can switch to 2 turn workers. The granary will be a great investment for the civilization.

1) Have muskets

Wait, wait, this is the hardest step! It would be a shame to have to rush settlers to weird, remote sources of saltpeter in a race with the AI.

True.

Wanna bet that we have saltpeter on our island?

You can do the same thing with pikes, but you need more of them.

Or you can wait till rifles, in which the AI will have longbows.

Or, you can land whatever islands have barbs, then leader fish on a non-homeland.

Or you can just invade whatever little island the AI has settled that has saltpeter. Home islands will have 100's of units - other islands will have many fewer.

If the islands are really small, the AI might be limited to 4 or 5 cities and then drown under the weight of their own unit support and tech rate might be slow, especially if they are separated by ocean.

That is exactly true, although I do not doubt that they have done something to the map to prevent total tech lock.

With all those civs and islands, I predict Conquest is the hardest of all victories, although Domination and Histographic are doable.

Government wise, Niklas, Chamnix, do you agree with my assessment that Monarchy is needed? Once we start warring, it will be constant and brutal, and even with Markets and trading for luxuries...I don't know. What do you think?

Should be decently easy to stay up on the techs and trade for resources if we need to, it's more a matter of coordinating a series of brutal invasions and beachheads. Our boat technology, usually a huge issue in archipelago games, will be fine for our purposes, therefore I think more consideration is due to the finer details.

Chamnix, I understand that there is a certain extent we can formulate plans to, but once the save comes out, we can't discuss it until the Middle Ages. :(

BTW, I think 20k is very doable, because I will guess now that the luxury resource on the island (standard, not any bonus ones...) is Ivory, to give 20k players a hand. That is, so they can do the Statue of Zeus. Also consider we start with Alphabet. With all those civs, some will start with Alphabet, but I bet some can be beaten to Writing (this happens even with less civs on Huge). Past that, Literature -> GL for culture is key, and doable. Alternatively, Philosophy -> Literature as the free tech. Mausoleum is a lot harder to get (cascade from Pyramids), and Colossus almost impossible (archipelago map, no way to really trade fast enough to beat a Sid AI). With the GL and SoZ, the only challenge would be to get a third ancient age wonder...I'm thinking a prebuild to the Hanging Gardens. Once in the Middle Ages, I think you could get 4/5 of the big ones: Sistine, Shakespeare's, Copernicus, Bach's, and Newton's. With an archipelago map, there is no chance any of the AI would get any victory condition before your 20k city could win.

Darn, now I'm getting tempted to do that. ;)

MoM wont' cascade from Pyramids, but might from ToA or HG or Lighthouse.

I probably wont' go Philo - too much of a chance of a hut popping it by the AI.

Thinking about it, a big worry about a 20K game is not settling your island effectively before the era change and getting run over by 20-30 barb horsemen.

With the ability to prebuild the palace, you can fairly easily get all of the good MA wonders - you actually need the prebuild very badly, because the tech pace is so slow on huge sid and you could lose wonders.

You can handle war in Republic - you just need to ramp up the lux tax to maybe 50% on your first place to attack because of the huge number of guys attacking you. The phony wars help on that, too. But if I go for a lot of war, I'm probably going to go Monarchy. We wont' have to make the decision until 10 AD or later in any case :)

With all those civs and islands, I predict Conquest is the hardest of all victories, although Domination and Histographic are doable.

I stick to my claim that 160K culture would be hardest :p.

Government wise, Niklas, Chamnix, do you agree with my assessment that Monarchy is needed? Once we start warring, it will be constant and brutal, and even with Markets and trading for luxuries...I don't know. What do you think?

I'm planning to try for Monarchy, but if I get to Philosophy first, and Code of Laws is available but Polytheism isn't, then I will take Republic and deal with happiness issues somehow (if I were going for 20K, then Republic would be my first choice ;)).

BTW, I think 20k is very doable...Once in the Middle Ages, I think you could get 4/5 of the big ones: Sistine, Shakespeare's, Copernicus, Bach's, and Newton's. With an archipelago map, there is no chance any of the AI would get any victory condition before your 20k city could win.

Darn, now I'm getting tempted to do that. ;)

I'm not nearly as confident as you and AutomatedTeller that the Middle Ages wonders will be that simple. It is definitely more likely using AT's second city approach, but when you devote early resources to one city, your research typically is pretty slow at the beginning of the Middle Ages, and it only takes 1 AI to beat you to Sistine's (via cascade or otherwise), and I think you could be in trouble. I don't think you can count on both Shakespeare's and Newton's in general. The AI will get to space at some point.

Of course, the setup we have here is much more forgiving than your average Sid game, so maybe it wouldn't be as bad as I think :dunno:.

Incidentally, the Colossus is not impossible - if you look at the HoF Sigma gauntlet, you'll see that it was built by the human several times by trading for Bronze Working and using something like curragh, worker, worker, Colossus. It didn't always work which is why I would hesitate to try in an XOTM. You would also have to use your capital for the 20K city - I agree that it would be impossible in your second city.

I guess I'm just worried that if I go for 20K and miss, then I can't recover, and the chance of missing are not inconsiderable.

I probably wont' go Philo - too much of a chance of a hut popping it by the AI.

I forgot huts come with raging barbarians. :blush:

because the tech pace is so slow on huge sid

:eek:

I stick to my claim that 160K culture would be hardest :p.

That's right...with so little land and so many civs, you'd basically have to conquer the world anyway.

I'm planning to try for Monarchy, but if I get to Philosophy first, and Code of Laws is available but Polytheism isn't, then I will take Republic and deal with happiness issues somehow (if I were going for 20K, then Republic would be my first choice ;)).

Are you saying that you use Big Picture to trade away Philosophy for CoL before you select your free tech? I never quite understood how the Republic slingshot worked.

Same plan here though. I like the idea of Writing -> Philosophy, and still think it is an effective strategy. Even if you are not the first to it, it will be useful tech for trading around.

I'm not nearly as confident as you and AutomatedTeller that the Middle Ages wonders will be that simple. It is definitely more likely using AT's second city approach, but when you devote early resources to one city, your research typically is pretty slow at the beginning of the Middle Ages, and it only takes 1 AI to beat you to Sistine's (via cascade or otherwise), and I think you could be in trouble. I don't think you can count on both Shakespeare's and Newton's in general. The AI will get to space at some point.

I think you are overestimating the AI's research capability on a Huge 80 percent archipelago. I believe you could win by Histographic without ever quite completely dominating the world. Plus, they do need several resources to build a spaceship. Maybe I am wrong, but the unit suicide will destroy AIs one by one.

Of course, the setup we have here is much more forgiving than your average Sid game, so maybe it wouldn't be as bad as I think :dunno:.

Exactly, although I don't want to be overconfident, this is probably like a 'standard' epic Deity game -- normal games have that random factor that is hard to overcome, this one is set-up to be winnable.

Incidentally, the Colossus is not impossible - if you look at the HoF Sigma gauntlet, you'll see that it was built by the human several times by trading for Bronze Working and using something like curragh, worker, worker, Colossus. It didn't always work which is why I would hesitate to try in an XOTM. You would also have to use your capital for the 20K city - I agree that it would be impossible in your second city.

Oh yes, but with 16 civs, it will be harder. I would be interested to see if anyone is able.

I guess I'm just worried that if I go for 20K and miss, then I can't recover, and the chance of missing are not inconsiderable.

Like you, I won't try. If you miss a 20k, you need some stellar play to get back in the game. I'd rather go for domination and fall back on my spaceship or even diplomatic victory.

Are you saying that you use Big Picture to trade away Philosophy for CoL before you select your free tech? I never quite understood how the Republic slingshot worked.

That's 1 way. If CoL is known by a couple contacts before you get Philosophy, then you could just buy it for gpt, and get a lot of the gpt back by selling Philosophy. The normal Republic slingshot involves researching Code of Laws yourself before Philosophy, but I don't think there's any way that will work this game.

I think you are overestimating the AI's research capability on a Huge 80 percent archipelago. I believe you could win by Histographic without ever quite completely dominating the world. Plus, they do need several resources to build a spaceship. Maybe I am wrong, but the unit suicide will destroy AIs one by one.

Maybe - it depends on how isolated the AI's islands are, and how quickly they can reach each other. If 1 AI has sufficient room to expand, they can break out of unit suicide and crush everything in their path.

Plus, the human's research will be very slow also. If you don't reach the Middle Ages until 10 AD and the industrial age until 1000 AD, then all your culture builds will be significantly later than you'd like.

Incidentally, the Colossus is not impossible

Oh yes, but with 16 civs, it will be harder. I would be interested to see if anyone is able.

Good point - I doubt anyone will try, but we can see what year the AI completes it in and figure out if it would have been possible.

What a discussion! Just to say I decided to play predator and most probably domination. Or will swich to Diplo if map shows that it is impossible.
Last game Niklas ouwit everybody: said non-military and finish with conquest...

Domination actually, but yeah, I realized pretty early that my tech pace was way too slow for any non-military win, so there was no choice but to slug on. :lol:

Just a head's up - I'm finishing a couple of things with the save files, so we'll be delayed a couple of hours.

By the way, the Polynesians will have 2 UU's that can start a Golden Age. Both are Amphibious, one with a 2-2 strength coming in the mid-Ancient Age, and one being a MedInf update. Both can also enslave. :)

Thanks for your patience - the Saves are available!

Wee! :D End of talking the talk, time to see who can walk the walk... :scared:

hey!! to any who looked here first, the saves page said that polynesia is based on Scandinavia, not Dutch. This changes things tremendously...

Huh? What would that change? We're still Agricultural and Seafaring, and everything else is flavored anyway... though maybe you were joking... :hmm:

Just a head's up - I'm finishing a couple of things with the save files, so we'll be delayed a couple of hours.

By the way, the Polynesians will have 2 UU's that can start a Golden Age. Both are Amphibious, one with a 2-2 strength coming in the mid-Ancient Age, and one being a MedInf update. Both can also enslave. :)

The AA one sounds useless, for two reason. One, hard to launch any sort of invasion that early. Two, don't want to trigger a despotic GA. But I do like the sound of an MDI replacement. :)

On second thought, is this some obscure hint we'll need a UU in the Ancient Age? :sniper:

Huh? What would that change? We're still Agricultural and Seafaring, and everything else is flavored anyway... though maybe you were joking... :hmm:

Scandanavia is Militaristic, not Agricultural.

Wee! :D End of talking the talk, time to see who can walk the walk... :scared:

Indeed :eek: Good luck.

Scandanavia is Militaristic, not Agricultural.
Yes they are, but Polynesia is Agricultural. civ_steve said so, and I doubt it's considered spoiler info to point out that the save verifies it.

To clear this up, I ended up modifying the Vikings civ to form the Polynesians and this included their traits. The Polynesians are definitely SeaFaring and Ag, and the Berzerk is now a Polynesian Marine (basically an MI with Amphib, Enslave and can start GA's); it will LOOK like a Berzerk since I don't have an Icon for a Poly Marine :) , and I thought that was a better appearance for the unit.

By the way, the Poly Raider will LOOK like an Enkidu Warrior; that was the unit I modified to be the Poly Raider.

From this you can assume that the Vikings and the Sumerians are NOT in the game. :) (Which you can tell once you have the save)

... and by that, should we guess that the Dutch are in the game, since you didn't use them? ;)

(No need to answer, we'll know as soon as we look at the save (I've only looked at it in CAII so far, to see the Agricultural trait is there))

I'm interested, even though I don't hold much hope of even surviving. Seeing that I struggle at Emperor, even a slightly dumbed down Sid will be nearly impossible. I would like to play with the second UU, an Amphib MDI that can enslave could be very nice to gather barb slaves out of the raging villages. I may try anyway, even if I fail, the sun will rise the next day.

So, are you playing this month, Mathilda?
On SID level? You've got to be joking.

Steve, questions: hopefully it is not a spoiler:
They are modified 'ancient' civs; I've changed the Leader, and City names, but the LeaderHead...
1) Are those civs stay at AA, or they may go to MA? Will "Scientific look like" Minor AIs get free bonus Tech from AA to MA?
... It allows trade over Sea and over Ocean spaces, and is an optional Ancient Age tech that requires Map-Making.
2) Is this Thech tradable to AI? Will they get overseas trade ability if get this tech?

It is misprint in title:
Special Notes for COTM42
Ivan.

The minor civs are only minor in that they don't build Settlers. For some I may have turned off Galley production as well. Otherwise, they have the same capabilities as other civs - if they are Scientific, they will get a Free Tech upon entering the next Age.

Polynesian Trade is technically available to the AI. However, I used the 'flavor' attribute within the C3C editor to give this Tech a 0% relationship to the AI civs. If I understand this correctly (and I didn't test it thoroughly, so this is somewhat experimental), the AI shouldn't research it themselves. It's optional as well, so they have no need to learn it. Besides, what it does is allow Trade over Sea and Ocean spaces; it doesn't permit ship travel so these civs would only have contact, and trade, with civs they can reach.

I'll change the header - thanks!

Almost tempted to reinstall civ and line up for a beating.

What would it take to push you over the edge? :)

Wow, looks so fun! Haven't played Civ since summer break; homework is tremendous!:( Sounds really hard... should be fun though. Good thing I had some practice, i did the COTM with the Netherlands on Demigod a few months earlier and pulled off a diplomatic win. This is Sid... I'll definitely do Conquest class. Something to look forward to for winter break!

I'll need to finish my Egyptian 20K trek. Quite a step from Regent to Sid :eek: but I hope to start by mid-week. Trying to decide on research path. Thinking about trying to get to philosophy first and taking Map Making to help me off the island asap.

Amazing just how much can be said about a GOTM...:lol:

What would it take to push you over the edge? :)You definitely got me. It's been quite a while since I've even started a GOTM, let alone finished one. And, while I usually play Open, I hafta go Predator on this one. Already the Polynesian traits and the opening spot make the game easier. A second settler is just too much.

Civ3 installed on my new computer. Save file opened. Studying the opening position.

I think it should be COTM43 Spoiler 1.

The minor civs are only minor in that they don't build Settlers. For some I may have turned off Galley production as well. Otherwise, they have the same capabilities as other civs - if they are Scientific, they will get a Free Tech upon entering the next Age.

Polynesian Trade is technically available to the AI. However, I used the 'flavor' attribute within the C3C editor to give this Tech a 0% relationship to the AI civs. If I understand this correctly (and I didn't test it thoroughly, so this is somewhat experimental), the AI shouldn't research it themselves. It's optional as well, so they have no need to learn it. Besides, what it does is allow Trade over Sea and Ocean spaces; it doesn't permit ship travel so these civs would only have contact, and trade, with civs they can reach.

I'll change the header - thanks!

Kind of like those barbarian techs in the one conquest? You could technically research them but they took 400 turns, so the AI might see something like that.

I think it's a multiplier that's applied after the normal calculations for which tech an AI will research next. Setting it to 0 should turn away any AI from researching it - but I don't KNOW that so any other behavior would make a good Spoiler post.

Deleted by user.

What would it take to push you over the edge? :)

A single button to press that:
1) Reinstalled civ
2) Installed CivAssistII
3) Installed the smilees for the citizens in the city screen
4) Corrected my noaipatrol
5) Installed the scenarios
6) Played and won the game for me

Okay, so (6) is only a nice to have!

Forgot about noaipatrol Thanks!

I too forgot about noaipatrol! Will this have affected my current efforts adversely? Is it to my fortune or misfortune that I forgot? What exactly does it fix? :crazyeye:

It's a line that you should add to your conquests.ini file.

NoAIPatrol=0

Without it, the barbs are brain-dead and will just stand around doing nothing. As this game is played with raging barbs, it's rather important. I see that you've already posted to the first spoiler and so had an advantage if you don't have it. Policy here that folks "should" add it but are not forced to and won't be penalised if, like you, they forgot or didn't know. It would be good to make the change before playing further. :)

Darn, it makes it harder? ;) It has been brutal enough without it. I get the brain-dead part though. I'll go add it.

edit: On second thought, I am not sure as for the implications once I do. As it is, the barbs will leave me alone as long as I have one defender in each city. Without any time to prepare for this, they may just totally overrun my island colonies.... can anyone give a hint as for their likely movements?

There's a thread about it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100704).

What it seems to boil down to for me:

NoAIPatrol=1 - If there is something directly on the NW/SE axis of a barbarian, he will move toward it (on the best defensive terrain). If there is nothing on that axis, he won't move.

NoAIPatrol=0 - If there is something directly on the NW/SE axis of a barbarian, he will move toward it (on the best defensive terrain). If there is nothing on that axis, he will alternate fortifying and moving in a random direction.

Thanks for that. :)

Here is my issue.

If I play on and win without changing it, obviously I have had an unfair advantage.

If I play on and change it now, that doesn't take away from the fact that my opening play (4000bc to 300bc) was easier than for everyone else...so...you might as well put an asterisk next to my game.

Irony :mischief:

I have paused playing (it is 170 BC) until I can decide more of what to do here.

Update: I made the change and have decided to play on...since I didn't know before, I don't think it will be held against me.

-Elear

I recall some SGOTM where I had mistakenly set the value to 1. IIRC we had quite a hard time with all the barbies that came running when the value was set back to 0. So no, I don't think you'll have an easier game at all. :p

I haven't dared start the game yet. :scared:

Though in truth it's the CIV GOTM that's keeping me, will start once that's finished. ;)

I recall some SGOTM where I had mistakenly set the value to 1. IIRC we had quite a hard time with all the barbies that came running when the value was set back to 0. So no, I don't think you'll have an easier game at all. :p

As I found out about two seconds ago. :p

I have looked for the NoAIPatrol line in my .ini file and couldn't find it. I have noticed the NW-SE axis behavior, but not 100% consistently. I have had 1 town over-run by barbs and another attacked. I guess I have the "wrong" setting, but raging barbs at Sid level would make this totally unplayable for me. I would say that since an out of the box installation has that setting that way, I am not bothered by the "ethical" dilemma. If you choose the more difficult setting, that is your choice.

You have to add the line yourself, it's not included since it's the default behavior. And it's more than just an ethical dilemma, it's the "strongly recommended" option. But since it wasn't noted on the dl page (which I think it has been previously, no?), I don't think anyone will fault you for not switching it at this point.

A single button to press that:
1) Reinstalled civ
2) Installed CivAssistII
3) Installed the smilees for the citizens in the city screen
4) Corrected my noaipatrol
5) Installed the scenarios
6) Played and won the game for me

Okay, so (6) is only a nice to have!

The button you are looking for is on the front left of your mouse. :p I admit you might have to press it more than once!

it's not included since it's the default behavior.

This is what Overseer was saying. Since it is the 'default' in C3C, regardless of its effect, I don't think anyone can be blamed for specifically choosing not to switch the line, unless that were an official cotm rule.

I think it should be (and that is why I switched it for my game), but regardless, you can't apply a rule retroactively like that. Maybe this is something to look into for the future.

-Elear

Elear said:


I think it should be (and that is why I switched it for my game), but regardless, you can't apply a rule retroactively like that. Maybe this is something to look into for the future.


Everyone would agree that you can't apply it retroactively. In fact, it's not required :) As Abegwait said...


Policy here that folks "should" add it but are not forced to and won't be penalised if, like you, they forgot or didn't know.

In fact, it's not required

:rolleyes:

-Elear

Hmmm ... SID. Conquest diplomatic anyone? :p

edit: as an alternate to the predator domination crew, scoutsout and I will be doing open difficulty, conquest VC - other contestants welcome.

Hmmm ... SID. Conquest diplomatic anyone? :p

edit: as an alternate to the predator domination crew, scoutsout and I will be doing open difficulty, conquest VC - other contestants welcome.Yeah... we need lots... so maybe one of us'll actuall win the thing. :rolleyes: :eek:

Not sure if I'm eligible to play conquests, but if I am (and I ever get the 20K Egyptian game done, now up to 18.7 K), this is something of interest. If not eligible, then I'm I'll try the for it at open.

Civ_Steve: Am I ok to play the conquests level?

@denyd: Beorn did say open difficulty.

@denyd: Beorn did say open difficulty.Yeah...conquest was the Victory Goal... :beer:

Wait, then what is diplomatic doing in the title? :confused:

That was a joke, conquest diplomatic wouldn't do justice to SID archipelago ;)

@Beorn - will you please get over to the SG and tell me whether you want me to sign the Mayans on against the Portugese? :p

Well the Egyptians finally prevailed and I'll be starting this one tonight. Going to be a bit farmerish with lot of boats out until my island is fully settled then it's kill, kill, kill :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

Ok, I'm really going to start tonight

Shopping and unexpected guests (ok the wife knew they were coming and I forgot) delayed me until now. I'll still go with plan A: Farmer's gambit and attempted world tech trader, until island fully settled then :hammer:

BTW: I haven't played a huge map with this many AI tribes before, how long is the interturn gap?

BTW: I haven't played a huge map with this many AI tribes before, how long is the interturn gap?

At least on my pc first internut took just 35 secs..and i stopped playing