View Full Version : some ideas: better cavalry, VASTLY improved navies!


King Coltrane
Nov 30, 2007, 12:29 PM
if you like 'em... mod 'em... if not, thats cool too. and even if you like them but dont want to mod them, thats also fine, i just wanna put my ideas out there so someone may come across them and like them.

ok, so:

1. I think all the bonuses of "builds XX% faster with Y resource" should be changed to "builds XX% faster with Y Resource IF that resource is in the cities radius." i mean it doesnt make sense that stone on the other side of your empire would really help building the pyramids in 1200 BC... taking stone THAT far that early seems unlikely and I think it isnt realistic. however, if the resource HAPPENS to be in the fat cross, that is absolutely realistic and in fact accounts for many wonders throughout history (Parthenon, Pyramids, etc.) If this would be too inconvenient though, maybe with steam engine/railroad, or even with the civic slavery, this penalty could be overridden. i mean if you are willing to kill MANY MANY people to complete the project, i guess you could conceivably use a far off resource, so slavery could work, or maybe at least lessen this "penalty" from 0% increase to 25% increase (instead of 50%).

next, I think that for horses, if the resource is in the city radius, a building should be available that gives the combat 1 promotion to horse mounted units, call it a Horse Breeder or something. BUT make this building ONLY build-able if it is in the fat cross. I mean, the stable is nice, but that can be built anywhere, which makes sense. But in a city with access to horses it seems they should get a special bonus to the cavalry trained there. I dont think this should be applied to other resources, with the possible exception of elephants, for the same reason, though i think they are strong enough. I would not do it for minerals just because i dont think that the quality of the weapons produced would increase simply because of a close supply of the resource, maybe just a small (10%) production bonus. The one exception to this would be:

a new event! "Your smithies iron working skills have become highly advanced, producing a kind of steel! Our swords will be the best the world has ever seen!" Swordsmen, maceman, and knights all will receive the combat 1 promotion from now on." would require a source of iron (not nec. in the fat cross, but this im unsure of) and a forge in the city. reminds me of japan...

new promotion system for industrial/modern ships: when they start out the use coal (i think all WW2 ships should be made available earlier and have the ability to use coal to produce in addition to oil and uranium) and have the promotion "Steam Engine" this doesnt have an effect, but you will see why it is important in a second. assuming you have a source of oil, when you develop combustion you can bring your ships into a city with a drydock and "upgrade the engine systems" to a combustion engine. this would not be cheap however, and depending on the ship (transport, sub, destroyer, cruiser (PUT THE CRUISER BACK IN! I LOVED THEM!), battleship, carrier in that order i think) it would cost more money. IE: if you wanna upgrade your steam driven battleship (think dreadnought) to one with a combustion engine, it should cost at LEAST 500 gold. destroyers could be 1/3 the cost and carriers would be like 600 if the battleship was 500. having this promotion would provide +2 movement, +5 strength, +2 carry capacity to carriers. Then later after you develop fission, you can upgrade again to nuclear reactors, but only if you have a drydock, a source of uranium, and at least one nuclear power plant in your empire. the costs of this upgrade would be 1.5 times the cost of upgrading to combustion engines and give +2 movement and +5 strength, +4 carry capacity to carriers. so in essence, you would have lots of different kinds of ships this way with varying strengths, etc.

that system could also be applied to hulls/armor. start as wooden, as the base. at steel, can upgrade wooden ships to steel plated, though ironclads and more modern ships would start with this. you would need a forge and a harbor for this. this upgrade would mean +2 strength, -1 movement, to represent the heavier ship. and at industrialism maybe, allow upgrades to reinforced steel armor, adding +3 strength, -1 movement. you would need a factory and a drydock for this. these movement penalties would be offset by the new engines, so +2 for the new engine, -1 for the armor is still a net of +1. of course you dont need to upgrade all of your ships to the heaviest armor, so you could keep some destroyers super fast to serve as scouts, which is i think good. these upgrades would not be as expensive as the engines, only costing 100-200 gold.

finally, weapon systems: with gunpowder, you get cannons, so you could upgrade your galleons and caravels to have cannons, but i think in this case it could be done in a really interesting way. i think when you bring it into a city with a forge and a harbor to upgrade, the button says "add 10 cannons for 50 gold" this gives +1 strength, but -1 movement and -1 carry capacity. (for frigates it wont matter and for galleons and caravels the limit for number of guns would be movement, not carry capacity, so you could have galleons with negative carry capacity, which has no gameplay problems, so its ok!) however you can do this again if you want, adding another 10 for 50 gold, another +1 strength, and another -1 movement. there should be a check that you cannot lower the movement below 1, so the ship can always move. i mean a fleet of galleons with +2 strength (net 6) and -2 movment (net 2) could be just what you need to break another empires naval supremacy before you can use privateers or frigates. also, a ship like this could combat piracy if your fleet is off somewhere else. the same should apply to frigates, ironclads, ships of the line, and privateers (and replacement UUs) this would add a huge amount of variety to this stage of naval warfare in the game. you could choose to have a fleet of weak but fast ships to get a quick invasion or a slower stronger fleet to fight the enemies fleet, or a combination. with destroyers and battleships (and cruisers!) they would start with "heavy guns" (we could replace this with a real thing, i just dont remember it off the top of my head) and the same system could apply. "add a battery of heavy guns" but at +2 strength, -1 movement. can only do if there is a factory and drydock. this would cost 100-200 gold per use. a fleet of slow powerful battleships or nimble destroyers? with rocketry, you would have two options for ships, add a missile battery for 300 gold, or convert an existing emplacement into a missile battery for 400 gold. if you convert to a missile battery, you lose the strength bonus of +5, but gain +25% chance of intercepting aircraft, +15% vs aircraft. if you add a missile battery, it would still be -1 movement, but no strength bonus, only +25% chance of intercepting aircraft. so you could give a ship 4 of these to make it the defender of the skies for your fleet, an important role in later eras. it could be cool to see a once powerful battleship have to take down some of its guns to fulfill a new role of escort to a carrier. in all of these gun upgrade instances, you could always bring the ship back to a city with a drydock (no factory required here) and "remove gun emplacement/missile battery" for only like 30 gold. if you absolutely need a quick escort and dont have time to build another ship, heres your option! (for cannon-wielding ships, only a harbor is necessary and it would only cost 5 gold)

a couple miscellaneous promotions here:
-equip with depth charges, 50 gold, requires factory, drydock, -1 movement, +25% vs. subs. (only for destroyers and cruisers)
-radar: req. radio. needs only a drydock, 100 gold, no movement penalty, +1 visibility, +15% chance of intercepting aircraft
-sonar: req. radio. needs only drydock, 100 gold, no movement penalty, can see subs, +15% vs. subs. (destroyers cant do that automatically anymore!) (for destroyers, cruisers, and subs, only)
-"tactical nuke refit": req. fission, drydock, factory, Manhattan project, and the nuclear engine promotion, subs can then get "tactical nuke refit" for 300 gold, -1 movement, +3 tactical nukes can be carried)
-"add torpedo tube": req. factory, drydock, same concept as guns, but instead of increase strength, each one gives -1 movement, +25% vs ALL ships.
(these last 2 make differentiating between attack and missile subs possible)

in general, a few changes need to be made.
-subs should start with + 25% vs ships, even destroyers, but they should receive no defensive bonus. this makes adding sonar very important once you get radio.
-subs should also cost 80 hammers instead of 100, making them have a more prominent or at least prevalent role in naval warfare.
-the base movement for all ships from the age of sail (caravels) on should be increased by 1. this isnt huge and doesnt change much, but with the new ideas i said before it allows more differentiation.

-thats all for now. i hope you liked reading that stuff. if i have more ideas ill write them here in the future.

PS! there are errors in the civ. pedia! for the Byzantines entry it says Constantinople fell in 1461, but it was 1453! also for Mehmet II's entry it says in 1840 he invaded Italy, but they meant 1480.

King Coltrane
Dec 01, 2007, 01:44 PM
if anyone has comments please feel free to leave them here. im curious what everyone (or anyone) thinks

jkp1187
Dec 03, 2007, 03:39 PM
Interesting ideas, but I'm not sure that the added complexity = more fun.... Some of these suggestions appear to be just adding micromanagement to units without necessarily adding anything new to the game, you know what I mean?

In my opinion, the only thing that's truly asking for a change right now is naval combat. It would be nice if airpower could play a role in defensive battles, and if naval units could intercept incoming invasion fleets. But I wouldn't necessarily add any more units at this time. I think Civ/BtS succeeds admirably right now because the designers kept the total number of units relatively low, all things considered.

Concerning this idea:


a new event! "Your smithies iron working skills have become highly advanced, producing a kind of steel! Our swords will be the best the world has ever seen!" Swordsmen, maceman, and knights all will receive the combat 1 promotion from now on." would require a source of iron (not nec. in the fat cross, but this im unsure of) and a forge in the city. reminds me of japan...


....this would actually be very easy to implement, although if this is something given for free (i.e., without a quest or some sort of cost attached to it,) I'm inclined to say that this is a bit too much to give to a player via a 'freebie' event, just for balance purposes. (I tend to think that less is more in this regard.) Also, it wouldn't be as useful to receive it if you were playing an Aggressive civ, as the Swords and Maces of Aggressive civs already receive the Combat I promotion.

Just my two cents here. Don't want to discourage you from coming up with new ideas...but sometimes ideas that I come up with that sound great on paper don't seem to work out as well when I try to implement them....

Also, have you tried playing the Rhye's and Fall of Civilization mod? You might be interested in that, since it looks like you're taking a very historical approach to the game. It might be something up your alley.

King Coltrane
Dec 03, 2007, 08:46 PM
thanks for the comments. i think dale's mod actually does allow fleets (with airforces) to attack/defend together, which is cool! if not his mod, then elsewhere cause i know i saw that somewhere else.

i understand your point about my naval ideas, it just seems to me that a whole era of naval warfare/technology is missing, including the whole colonialism aspect of history, so i think my idea allows for an easy upgrade system but at the cost of gold, meaning you have to go out and make some money to pay for the better navy, while at the same time providing more flexibility to navies, fulfilling more roles that are important (scouts before airplanes came about, superheavy ships to scare your opponent, sacrificing anti ship capability for anti air capability, reducing "queens of the seas" to heavy escort)

i dont think any quests or costs would make sense with this kind of event. to counterbalance the effect i would just make it fairly rare, so it is not often seen. and i think that it would be easy to put a check in for "if civ is agg, give combat II instead of combat I" or something like that.

and yes, i love RFC and have been playing Rhye's mods since RoC, and i even got 2nd place overall in the goal based challenges!

thanks for the comments though, they are much appreciated. someday when i have time and learn a bit ill make my ideas into a mod.

jkp1187
Dec 04, 2007, 12:15 PM
thanks for the comments. i think dale's mod actually does allow fleets (with airforces) to attack/defend together, which is cool! if not his mod, then elsewhere cause i know i saw that somewhere else.


I wasn't clear if he'd ever actually converted it for use with BtS, and even so he added things that I really wasn't that interested in (such as the ranged bombardment).


i dont think any quests or costs would make sense with this kind of event. to counterbalance the effect i would just make it fairly rare, so it is not often seen. and i think that it would be easy to put a check in for "if civ is agg, give combat II instead of combat I" or something like that.


It might be fairer to give one promotion across-the-board that everyone's units could receive (such as Shock). Isn't free Combat I for aggressive civs enough??!? :)