I've been playing with the Grigori for awhile, and just thought I'd give my 2 cents worth for players unfamiliar with them :) I'm gonna start with early game strategy then add mid game and late game strategy later on. So here we go!

Table of contents:
Part I - early game
Part II - mid-game economy
Part III - late game


General tips:

Choose your ultimate research path early in the game and upgrade your adventurers accordingly. Upgrade your adventurers to unit types that you are going to research all the way. For example, don't upgrade your adventurer to horseman if you don't intend to research the calvalry path all the way, since your adventurer will be stuck as a low tech unit for the rest of the game.
There are so many styles of play possible with the Grigori that it's tempting to try to do everything. Instead you should stay focused on the particular overall strategy that you picked out early in the game. Clearly the religious path is out of the question, but in some ways it's one less thing to worry about. You don't have to race to found a religion and spread it to your cities, which lets you focus on other things.
In general, the Grigori work better with early game aggresive expansion using the 1st adventurer you get. You can either use your 1st adventurer to subdue barbs to allow easy expansion, or you can simply conquer your neighbour/barb cities. You can even build in deserts fairly early, since the Grigori start with water mana.
There are many traits to choose from with Adaptive, but not all traits are equal. Good early game traits: creative, charismatic, aggressive, raider. Good mid-late game traits: financial, charismatic, organised, arcane, raider. Though some of the others are viable too depending on how you want to play. The worst one to pick is probably spiritual :lol:

Units:

Dragon Slayer - Replaces macemen, but doesn't get a bonus vs melee. Instead it has courage and dragon slaying. Courage is useful for the extra healing it gives, but can be easily obtained using adepts anyway since the Grigori start with spirit mana. Dragon slaying is useful if you go after Acheron's hoard or against the Sheaim/Kuriotates dragon, but otherwise is useless. Making this unit slightly inferior to macemen.
Grigori Medic - The only Grigori unit capable of casting cure disease. As of 0.31 they are able to cast Heal, and so are useful for late game hearling. They also have the ability to explore enemy territory without an open borders treaty. If your medics are in enemy territory when you're at peace, they do *not* get kicked out after you declare war. Therefore you could plant medics in your enemy's territory before declaring war. Unfortunately medics can't pillage, though they can use metal weapons up to mithril. Mithril scalpels ;)
Luonnotar - Replaces druid. Except that it can't cast spells and is obtained at strength of will. Instead it's magic immune. That's right, immune! It can also remove any religion from your cities. Luonnotars cannot be built and can only be upgraded from dragon slayers or grigori medics :eek: of level 6+. Adventurer luonnotars kick a** and are one of the main reasons to play Grigori.
Arcane unit adventurer - While not a Grigori unique unit, adventurers make very powerful arcane units because they level up to level 10 on their own, or up to level 12 with charismatic trait. Therefore your archmages can start out with twincast, spellstaff, lich, and/or spell extention II. You can have brute strength casters with twincast, spellstaff. Or long range casters with twincast, mobility, spell extention II. This allows incredible flexibilty in the types of arcane units you end up with and essentially makes up for the Grigori weakness in divine magic.

Before you start, notice that the Grigori start with pacifism. Your 1st adventurer shows up in 20 turns, then the 2nd 50 turns after. After your 2nd adventurer, you should switch to nationhood because by then the support cost for your units is going to be to high.

What should you upgrade your 1st-2nd adventurers to, Scout or Warrior?

SCOUT --- hunter --- assasin --- marksman
\ \
\ \
\ \-- ranger --- druid
\ \--- beastmaster
\
\--- horseman --- horse archer --- knight
\
\--- chariot --- war chariot


WARRIOR --- axeman --- dragon slayer --- luonnotar
\ \--- berserker
\ \--- phalanx
\ \--- immortal
\
\--- archer --- longbowman --- marksman
\--- crossbowman
\--- arquebus


Note that to get immortal or berserker you'd need to go pretty deep into the divine techs, which wouldn't do you much good. With the removal of druids, the divine tech path is even weaker now. Your 3rd adventurer usually comes much later, and by then your research has already branched off.

If you upgraded your 1st adventurer to scout, set out to capture every animal you meet. Use those animals to mess up your neighbours or kill barbs, until you can upgrade your scout to horseman and set out to conquer properly.

If you upgraded your 1st adventurer to warrior, you can start conquering right away! That early in the game, few rivals civs can stand up to a combat V, shock promoted warrior. But make sure to bring a few regular warriors along too. Adventurers aren't invincible. Or you could simply use him to subdue barbarians to give yourself breathing room for expansion.

Well that's it for early game strategy. Comments and constructive criticism welcome :)

Adventurer immortals require irrational research of religious techs but you can take crazy risks giving tons of xp with them. And in multiplayer you might get those techs easier as other players may not see reason in them. But they might see it as well so you may be seriously weakened by trying to get them.

If you have Kuriotates of Sheaim as enemies dragon slayers are worth getting as they are a cost-effective way to get rid of their dragons and get xp from it.

Cancelled.

twincast archmages capable of dealing out 36 meteors in a single turn to rain down on a city is often one of the first and most obvious strats you will see from someone learning to play the grigori. its strong , its simple , and its easy to implement. but , its also very fragile.

you were tracking very well what upgrades into what as far as how to handle your adventures. but i suggest you follow up with how to increase the frequency of them also. when you do this you start to find out that one of the most overwhelming strats is a combination of shadows and archers.

the reason i suggest this is it allows for the highest yield of GPP over time based on the grigori special buildings. as well as giving you 9 extremely sick T4 units when used in conjunction with each other.

some notes on these units.
-- shadows are extremely strong for when you will attain them. and there only fear is things that see invis. couple these with the archers for this reason.
-- marksmen and flurries will have interchangeable promotion trees. both will have blitz and marksmen. both are capable of full city defense promotions. as well as having alot of first strike chances.
-- marksmen have the added advantage of forest stealth.
-- flurries will have the added advantage of city attack 3.

as for people who often think about taking a city with a hoard of summons. its jsut not possible vs this. in almost all but the rarest cases you wont even damage a flurry with a summoned unit (4-8 first strikes from an adjust strength 50 unit is hard to even dent.)

just a bit more room for thought for you guys..... enjoy.

Also note that in Shadow, Shadows are a Council of Esus-only national unit: the Agnostic Grigori won't have access to adventurer Shadows (but you could get them using unrestricted leaders)

Also note that in BtS Shadows are an Esus-only national unit: the Agnostic Grigori won't have access to adventurer Shadows (but you get them using unrestricted leaders)

Ah I didn't know that. Actually I'm a little relieved, personally I've always thought that invisible adventurers were a tad unbalancing.

Daladinn, thanks for the tips :goodjob: I'm trying to avoid being too specific as to which research tree one should take with the Grigori. Since almost any path is viable given the right situation. Although it would be very helpful to have people post their own favorite Grigori game style :)

I think every path has it's pros/cons. Some path are good early, mid, or late in the game. For example, the archer path is very strong towards the late/end game, on the other hand I find it lacks power and mobility in the early to mid game if you want to conquer cities.

I'm gonna post mid and late game strategy in abit, where I'm gonna discuss how to maximise the number of adventurers among other things. After I test-play a Grigori medic strat I wanted to try out...

Yeah if I played Grigori I would definitely go Archer heroes. I just love first strikes :)

I'll usually go for a magic heavy approach. After setting up adventurers guilds and Grigori Taverns in most cities, I start researching all the magic techs. With fire, 3 archmages with twincast can rain 108 meteors on a city with alot of back up mages with fireballs. I find magic the most effect path of the Grigori.

I'll usually go for a magic heavy approach. After setting up adventurers guilds and Grigori Taverns in most cities, I start researching all the magic techs. With fire, 3 archmages with twincast can rain 108 meteors on a city with alot of back up mages with fireballs. I find magic the most effect path of the Grigori.

Yeah but thats a bit overpowered for my taste :P

I prefer to have most of my archmages/summoners have a wide variety of spells they can cast. Adventurer archmages/summoners are very powerful, but they really must be narrowly specialized, since they don't start with the free promotions from the mana you control. You gain powerful offensive units, but lose out on some their more subtle spells.

I prefer some variety as well. I tend to only have 1 adventurer fire archmage, and I usually give him mobility+spell extension II instead of spellstaff. Being able to hit 4 tiles away and +1 move usually translates to hitting more often than a spellstaff mage, since he is able to hit things sooner. At least when he is on the offensive, as he usually is :p I find the extra speed works well combined with adventurer war chariots.

In the midgame, there are 3 major concerns for the Grigori:

happiness
adventurers
culture

Your lack of religion causes problems with city happiness and culture. Culture is usually only a problem if you have neighbours pushing their cultural borders into your cities. There are a many ways to deal with this:

Public Bath + Gambling House. This is probably the most effective ways to deal with unhappiness. However, if you want to keep a high science slider you might want to skip the gambling houses as the increased maintenance cost may not be worth it.
Theatres. Economically this isn't the best solution for happiness, but can be used if your neighbour's culture is pushing into your cities, or you're going for a culture victory (the Grigori aren't the best at cultural victory...).
Hope spell. Since the Grigori play well with mages and start with spirit mana this is a solution that is compatible with most Grigori strategies. Usually these mages are upgraded from adepts that took enchantment and spirit promotions used to buff your troops. As mages they should be stationed in your cities to buff your troops with courage, enchanted blade, and flaming arrows, as well as maintaining hope. The happiness boost is minor, but the culture boost is significant.
Consumption, Republic civics. By process of elimination, consumption is likely the best culture civic for the Grigori anyway. Except for nationhood, all the other culture civics don't work well with the Grigori. Republic is nice since it boosts culture and adventurer birthrate as well.
War. Your neighbour's expanding cultural border is only a problem if you have a neighbour :mischief: Plus you can grab his happiness resources as well!

Another concern is slowing adventurer birthrate. The national epic, the adventurer's guild, and Republic are useful to boost adventurer output. The national epic is good useful because it allows you to run a few specialists or wonders outside your capital without worrying that their GPP will overrun your adventurer generation at your capital. Once you've adopted these strategies and your adventurer birthrate drops again, it is usually time to cast the Grigori world spell, Ardor.

There's also another way of boosting adventurer output. That is to assign specialists to increase your total GPP output. While the probability of getting an adventuerer decreases, this is offset by the increased amount of GP you get. A generally accepted strategy is to use sages plus the Great Library, and use the extra great sages to bulb toward strength of will for archmage. Another viable alternative is using great merchants to bulb the cavalry tech line, but this is more difficult with the Grigori because it requires you to not research mathematics. The problem is that you need mathematics for gambling houses.

Currency is a good tech to get early, as it gives you the adventurer's guild to boost your adventurer yield, and consumption. Plus it's a requirement for gambling houses and republic. Going for mercantilism early to get the Grigori tavern is optional, as the research cost is rather high for a mere +1 boost to adventurer GPP. Therefore you should only go for mercantilism early if it fits your overall strategy.

As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome. Especially since I may have overlooked a few things.

-- flurries will have the added advantage of city attack 3.You mean if you promote them to it while still warriors, right?

You mean if you upgrade them to it while still warriors, right?

That reminds me, before upgrading them to archers, take all the promotions that archers cant take. Like City Attack, March, etc.

And btw, EverNoob. Your part 2 of the guide sounds pretty solid to me. Another good thing with currency early is that it boosts Villages and Towns +1 too.

sorry, it may seems noob, but what is the "subdue barbarian" that you are refering to??? (I am still with .23)

is it a new feature available to the hero promotion on the melee path ??
or just available to grigori adventureres ...
or a mistake in formulation ?

for scholarship I would go in reverse...

by creating many science output from sage, you reduce your overall commerce production and can lower the science % without losing in science output... a nice combination with gambling house... you raise the money slider without loosing in science production... maybe combining it with guild for another +1 science for specialists (and don't say that grigori doesn't go with SE, I know it...but 1-2 specialist in every tiny city cannot overcome your capital production of GP, while allowing you to gain eventually 1-2 degrees on the money sllider and thus make more happies)
furthermore, I posted somewhere some curve showing that on average, diluting your adv gpp pool with 1-2 specialists is not alaways a losing bargain : more GP, average : same number of adventureres or a bit more, with a diminishing return (and higher risks) with increasing the dilution

and diluting it with GC (even non specialists) is still interesting : an eventual GC is always interesting to graft to an adventurer unit... +1 str and more xp means that your adventurer basedunits is less likely to die !!


greyfox : if you take city attack 3 and march, (combat IV???) .. meaning 8 promotions... it doesn't leaves many more opportunities to get drill I-V, or even the heroic defense/attack ...
unless, starting with combat 1 (aggressive) then go charismatic to spend all this xp into more levels.. then go raider to gain even more xp... then... charismatic again...

greyfox : if you take city attack 3 and march, (combat IV???) .. meaning 8 promotions... it doesn't leaves many more opportunities to get drill I-V, or even the heroic defense/attack ...
unless, starting with combat 1 (aggressive) then go charismatic to spend all this xp into more levels.. then go raider to gain even more xp... then... charismatic again...

Yeah well you gotta start somewhere, and combat promotions are a good start, can always take the drill promotions afterwards. (First strikes works best on stronger units anyways)

But yeah, that is a good tip, to spend the XP when you are charismatic. Just don't go too fanatical about it. Sometimes you just can't wait to level up.

aggressive doesnt give combat 1 to adventurers last i checked.

charismatic is alright, but phi/rai is better overall for aventurer leveling

sorry, it may seems noob, but what is the "subdue barbarian" that you are refering to??? (I am still with .23)

is it a new feature available to the hero promotion on the melee path ??
or just available to grigori adventureres ...
or a mistake in formulation ?


I'm not sure how .23 is, but in .25 at monarch+ difficulties barbarians (I'm including skeletons and lizardmen) are a significant concern at the early stages of the game. At a point where I prefer scouting with a warrior than a scout unit, since a scout always gets killed before going very far :( You can use your adventurer to clear out barrows/ruins early and capture barb cities to prevent future barbarian rushes, thus reducing your need to build alot of warriors for defense at the beginning.


for scholarship I would go in reverse...

by creating many science output from sage, you reduce your overall commerce production and can lower the science % without losing in science output... a nice combination with gambling house... you raise the money slider without loosing in science production... maybe combining it with guild for another +1 science for specialists (and don't say that grigori doesn't go with SE, I know it...but 1-2 specialist in every tiny city cannot overcome your capital production of GP, while allowing you to gain eventually 1-2 degrees on the money sllider and thus make more happies)
furthermore, I posted somewhere some curve showing that on average, diluting your adv gpp pool with 1-2 specialists is not alaways a losing bargain : more GP, average : same number of adventureres or a bit more, with a diminishing return (and higher risks) with increasing the dilution


I was mostly referring to the fact that Scholarship in a CE (cottage economy) is maximally effective, in terms of research, if you have a high science slider. Using Scholarship to compensate for a lower science slider is perfectly fine too, though I think you're not getting the best out of Scholarship doing so. Schorlarship isn't that useful for the Grigori in terms of Sages if you only run 1-2 specialists per city, since council of elders and library are pretty cheap to build with the philosophical trait anyway, and boost research too.

As far as diluting is concerned, diluting adventurer GP to increase total GPP yield is indeed a good idea in the late game. Any GP is better than no GP at all. I just hadn't gotten to posting about late game strategy yet :) In the mid-game adventurer's guild+national epic is usually sufficient IMO if you want to maximise your chances of an adventurer. Essentially it depends on how much you're willing to gamble with GPP dilution and there's nothing wrong with that.

aggressive doesnt give combat 1 to adventurers last i checked.

charismatic is alright, but phi/rai is better overall for aventurer leveling

You're right aggressive doesn't give combat 1 to adventurers, but it helps non-adventurer units and gives cheap stables. I'm probably just partial to that trait since I like cavalry :)

Raider vs charismatic is a pretty close call. But you're right I should've included it in the list, thanks for reminding me. Charismatic is better for levelling if you're heavy on the arcane units, raider is better for levelling everything else.

Which reminds me, I was wondering what's better for leveling arcane units: arcane or charismatic. Hmmm...

It would be a good idea to add a whole section on trait choices later on...

i made Faeryl Arcane/Charismatic in my minimod specifically because they rock for casters heh

hard to say which is better for adaptive tho, adaptive is prolly better if you intend to use it for a long time, where as charismatic is prolly better if you are just choosing it once to level up some adepts whove gained xp already quick. arcane early on and then switching to charismatic right before you intend to use them might be nice.

Raider vs charismatic is a pretty close call. But you're right I should've included it in the list, thanks for reminding me. Charismatic is better for levelling if you're heavy on the arcane units, raider is better for levelling everything else.Well the trick here would be using Raider to gain XP and Charismatic when you pick the promotions. ;)

Though it requires patience, and it's probably only gonna work at the higher levels.

In terms of victory, the Grigori do best with conquest, domination, and tower of mastery. The cultural and altar victories are possible but more difficult because of the lack of religion (ie: extra culture + priests). You can no longer use luonnotar units to build the altar. The religious victory is impossible with the Grigori. Because the Grigori tend to win with aggressive victory conditions, the late game focus should be on techs that give a strong military advantage.

The best tech line for the late game is the arcane line. At strength of will you get luonnotars and archmages. One advantage of the arcane line is that you can use GS to bulb it. If you sacrifice adventurer output in favour of GS, you can use Ardor to bulb strength of will sooner. This way you can get archmages sooner than any other civ, though you'll have fewer adventurers. Usually it doesn't matter because early archmages are very difficult to counter.

Another good tech line is the metal line ending with mithril weapons. Adventurer phalanxes are very good at breaking city defenses. The Grigori also have access to arquebus and cannons to support your phalanxes. Researching mithril weapons usually takes forever, so using the tower of divination is usually a good idea.

Those are the two most common late research paths for the Grigori, but in reality any non-religious path is viable if the situation calls for it.

Note that in 0.31 the luonnotar replaces druids, meaning that druids are no longer available to the Grigori.

PS: I updated the earlier sections of this guide to reflect changes in 0.31.

I think that 0.31d must have really helped the Grigori. Free sphere promotions for Mages/Archmages on upgrade, should be a nice boost that saves XP for the Combat and Spell Extensions promotions when leveling Adventurer spellcasters.

EverNoob, I have found this thread very interesting. I have been playing the Grigori more and enjoying it a lot.

A couple of comments:

My first game with .31 resulted in a cultural victory with Cassiel - I was only playing at Monarch though. I was just very lucky when I got Hunting from a goodie hut, and then Animal Husbandry. My second adventurer was a Hunter (I had just enough gold) and I was lucky again to get all of the animals to build the Grand Menagerie. That is a killer for Culture in my capital, where I built it. I focused on other culture-generating wonders like the Bone Palace, Temple of Temporance (I think that is it), and the best, Syliven's Lyre. I had no trouble getting legendary culture in my first 2 cities (I was playing at Epic speed), but the 3rd one was not looking good. Then, I remembered I could move the Lyre to another city - I moved it to the 3rd one, maxed out on culture for the civ, and did every thing I could to get culture in that 3rd city (I wish I could have built Disciples, etc.). I ended up with the Cultural victory before turn 800.

I have some problems with the Grigori in the late-game.

1. As a Neutral civ and no way to change that alignment, when the AC gets high that means the annoying spread of hell terrain. :( I guess I shouldn't let this bother me, but it does and I don't like not having the option to change my alignment to Good to avoid it. The only way I have been able to do it, is to build the Mercurian Gate, and switch to Basium, but then the bizarre AI of my former civ drives me crazy. So, that means building a bunch of Adepts, etc. with sanctify/spring to keep micromanaging the crap.

2. When the AC hits 100 I have been decimated of Adventurer/heroes by Armageddon. In one game I lost every one, including some powerful Beastmaster adventurer. I only kept the ^%$#@! Trojan Horse and the Baron, but lost the rest. Fortunately, I had saved their World Spell and reset the GP count. I was able to get 3 more adventurers, but that meant more money and more waiting.

3. What can you use for terraforming tiles with this civ? I miss the Druids. Genesis helps a bit, but I don't think you can get a unit with revitalize???

One other early strategy I use (not only with the Grigori) is to rush Cartography and build the Pact of Nilhorn. Those Stooges are three powerful HN early units. I like to sent them out to clear out some of those spreading ai civs who build right up to your borders. However, when they take damage, it can be forever (even with March) before they heal, and it is a long time with the Grigori before you can get a unit with Medic I. I don't think any of their units have Medic II which makes a big difference in healing too.

All in all, I love playing the Grigori as they are so different from the other civs with a lot of flavor. I didn't think I would like playing a civ without religions, but I just make sure my first Settler chooses a spot with access to at least 2 possible Happy resources, and some more where I will put the 2nd city. Then, you just have to go out and get those animals for your carnival! Building on a river lets you get a Brewery with happiness from rice, wheat and corn. It would be really great if that Adventurer's Guild gave you +1 happiness. :)

Thanks again for some great stuff on the Grigori.:goodjob:

I think the Nature III Spell is vitalize. Sure, it may cost an Archmage slot, but in the late game, its worth it.

You have to be aggressive if you want to bring the AC down. You can conquer AV cities and use a luonnotar to remove the AV from them. Or you could go destroy the infernals.

For early healing you should use courage (spirit I), and when you get mages regeneration (body II). The Grigori Medic's main role is to cure disease.

Sanctify (life I) removed hell terrain in 0.30, I'm guessing it still does in 0.31.

You have to be aggressive if you want to bring the AC down. You can conquer AV cities and use a luonnotar to remove the AV from them. Or you could go destroy the infernals.

For early healing you should use courage (spirit I), and when you get mages regeneration (body II). The Grigori Medic's main role is to cure disease.

Sanctify (life I) removed hell terrain in 0.30, I'm guessing it still does in 0.31.

I find that this mod is biased towards the AC increasing. That's fine. Yes, there are a few ways to move it down, but there are many things (events, ai civs razing cities, AV things, etc.) you cannot control. I don't think this is just for the Grigori, though. I really don't have a problem with the counter increasing and you just have to prepare your civ for the events that a high AC bring.

Courage provides very little healing, although it is helpful in battling units with Fear. I never thought of the mages' regeneration spell as I normally go for other types of mana. Yes, I agree the Medic is great for curing disease, but don't underestimate Medic I for healing in a stack. Medic II, if available, which it is not (I don't think any units have Medic III anymore). Life III is a possibility too, but you are talking archmages here and I need a healing unit mid-game. I just think the Grigori are at a healing disadvantage as civs that can get religions get an early unit with Medic I. The Grigori have to wait until Medicine.

Yes, Sanctify works, but using your arcane units as firemen and dealing with hell terrain is micromanagement at its worst. Oh well, I guess there is always that NO HELL TERRAIN option. ;)

Yeah, would be nice if adepts with Life just had an effect centred on them which passively reduced the hell counter in surrounding tiles. That effect could increase (in magnitude or range) for mages and archmages. That way they could be stationed to deal with hell terrain without moving and casting with several adepts each turn.

I have no idea how easy that is to do though. I guess an alternate would be a spell building, like Hope etc. If an adept with Life casts Sanctify a Sanctify building is put in place, which keeps hell counter at zero for all squares within that cities cultural boundaries.

I was under the impression that Courage and Medic I provided the same amount of healing, at least according to the civilopedia. Though I've never actually compared both directly in-game.

The body sphere of magic can be very useful, especially if you go the metal+arcane route since melee and arcane units are slow. Haste doubles their movement. It's true regeneration isn't as good in terms of raw healing compared to Medic II but it allows healing while on the move, a factor that can't be ignored.

The grigori medic can cast heal now so are more useful, I should've added that in my update.

For early game healing courage, mid-game regeneration, late game grigori medic.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply using sanctify alone to stop hell terrain. If you're aggressive vs the AV and keep the AC below 75, hell terrain doesn't spread into your lands. Then you can effectively use sanctify to revert land.

Thanks for the guide. I generally feel stunned by the choices when upgrading Adventurers and this helps to steer my choices. Particularly pointing out the disadvantages of going for Immortals or Beastmaster due to the Divine techs needed.

You mention the horseman line as being good for conquering. I've never gone far down that line except as an afterthought or as playing the Hippus. Any thoughts on the pros/cons of each line, chariot or horse archer?

You mention the horseman line as being good for conquering. I've never gone far down that line except as an afterthought or as playing the Hippus. Any thoughts on the pros/cons of each line, chariot or horse archer?

The combination of mounted units and raider trait is very strong, considering that it allows you to move 6 tiles/turn inside enemy territory. If you're going to rely heavily on mounted units, you should commit yourself to getting to warhorses before everyone and building the ride of nine kings. Then you should work your way to mithril working.

The disadvantage of the cavalry line of research is that it's exclusively military and doesn't yield any economy benefit. It's all about conquest, so only warmongers will want to research past trade. Using high withdrawal units (flanking promotion), you don't need to bring fire mages or catapults along, keeping your army very mobile.

The bulk of your forces should be chariots. Before mithril working, horse archers are useful as high withdrawal expendable units to wear the opponent down. After that the mithril chariot is superior in every way.

You are right about the new and improved Medic in the recent version. I built one for the first time yesterday and the Heal promotion is a big improvement. I still think the Grigori are at a big disadvantage vs. other civs when it comes to healing in the early game. I don't think Courage does much in the healing department. I think some units, like the Three Stooges which I always rush for, cannot even accept the Courage promotion. Werewolves too, but that is later.

One thing I will mention here that I am writing for the balance thread is that the latest version has taken a lot of the fun out of the Grigori for me. One of my late strategies was to build Shadows and send them out to wreak a little havoc in civs that have more pts. than I do.

Well, now, I can't see how the Grigori can build Shadows. Previously, you could research Deception and get the Council of Esus religion. You could even found the religion (but not convert) and get the holy building with a GP. Now, however, it appears the Grigori can no longer research Deception (or Honor to get Empyrean), so that means no Council of Esus and that means no Shadows. There is a VERY slight chance it could spread to Grigori lands, but not likely at all.

Also, no Trojan Horse which can be some fun.

Has anyone who played Cassiel in the new version seen this?

One way to help spread Esus into your lands is closing your borders to everyone who doesn't follow it or didn't found it.

Also you can find the Holy City and Gift a Great Prophet to the AI who built it to help ensure that Nox Noctis is constructed.

One way to help spread Esus into your lands is closing your borders to everyone who doesn't follow it or didn't found it.

Also you can find the Holy City and Gift a Great Prophet to the AI who built it to help ensure that Nox Noctis is constructed.

Both interesting suggestions, xienwolf.

However, based on my experience, ai civs (including the Sidar and Svartalfar) never seem to adopt CofE as their religion. You are right that you never see Nox Noctis constructed. I'm wondering even if I sent a Great Prophet (or Great Merchant, I find the Great Prophets hard to come by for Cassiel) to that city, and gifted it, if the ai would use it for that purpose!;)

Really, I think the Grigori are screwed now when it comes to building Shadows (and the Trojan Horse). Please see my post in the Balance Thread. thanks.

I vaguely remember that you are able to construct shrines, these yourself if one of your great people is in a rival city. Of course, I only remember testing this in a Permanent Ally (Basium's) cities, so it may still require it be the same team if not the same player.


I'm pretty sure they don't often adopt the religion because it doesn't spread much, in part because no one can spread it until they adopt it as a state religion. That really doesn't seem fair.

I, for one, would like to see some way to spread the Council of Esus. Maybe you'd have to spend extra money if it's not your state religion, or perhaps you'd spend the money and sacrifice the Nightwatch.

Well, if you really want to you could always edit yout SpellInfos.xml to remove the State Religion Pre-req on Spread Council of Esus. Then you can join the undercouncil, pass the Nightwatch Resolution, and spread Esus yourself.

I just discovered that if you play the Grigori with a different leader, they can acquire a religion. However, they cannot build Temples so the value is limited, but those Ancient Forests and leafy heroes sure are nice. I even got a Treant.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. A while back (.25?) Kael changed the limitation of Disciples and Temples to an effect of the Agnostic Trait to allow other leaders to play a religious Grigori, but for some reason he reverted to the old way when he made Shadow. I think I'll go back to making the trait block it instead in my modmod.

This would make Yvain a Grigori Druid.

Mmm, Grigori...

Love them. Sure, there's no religion... meh. Freaking hordes of heroes, each with a Great Commander attached to it... when I've played as them, my front line has been made up entirely of heroes. I don't even need to bring siege, because nothing can stop them. Phalanx with 230 XP, rising by one every turn... beautiful.

@Magister
The whole point of the Grigori's godlike Adventurers is to balance out the fact that they don't get any heroes through religion and the like... letting them have religion would overpower them.

Yeah, but Kael has stated that he does not plan to have the Unrestricted Leaders option be balanced. I'm certainly not recommending they get religions in normal games, and I personally don't ever use the Unrestricted Leaders option (although I would if the randomly selected leaders would still have their normal civ but you could assign leaders separately if you wanted to), but I don't see why we shouldn't leave the option open. It seems that Kael agreed at one point.

I'd like to have a semi-restricted leader option where each Civilization has a set of potential leaders consistent with their flavor (common alignment, race, traits) in addition to its regular leaders. Since we now have events that let you take over other Civs, it's not too much of a stretch. And this would be better for those events if they were also semi-restricted.

I can make reasonable choices for myself with the Unrestricted Leaders option, but who knows what the random AI leaders will be. I'd like them to be more reasonable selections without having to set them myself and spoil the fun of discovering them.

I realize this guide is outdated, but I have a question on the Grigori.
What is the big deal with Luonotars? They are stronger than a druid, but cant cast spells. They can convert other units, but is that worth it when the highest chance they can get is 50%?

Their main bonus is that they are Magic Immune. They also have an intrinsic bonus vs Disciple units.



I much prefer them in my version. They are weaker, but available at an earlier and more fitting technology: Philosophy. (I rearranged the tech tree a little, so Philosophy is a slightly later and more expensive tech, and is also the prereq for Republic.) They not only have their bonus vs Disciples, but also can target them in stack of stronger units. They don't have channeling or inquisitor promotions, mostly because my And Cow for Something Completely Different spell would mean that the Grigori could give all their heroes all the abilities of an archmage very early. Instead, they have a unit-specific Enlighten spell, which works like Inquisition but can also eliminate state religions, and also has a chance to make units on its tile lose their religion (which also means that priests lose their spells). Oh yeah, they can also move in rival territory without open borders, as it would otherwise be really dumb to sign open borders agreements with the Grigori if you have a state religion.


I was thinking I would let the Grigori get normal Druids again, but I changed my mind. Although not tied to a state religion, Druids are technically Priests who worship a false god (Sucellus). Plus, adventurer Druids would allow too much abuse of And Now For Something Completely Different.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Magic Immune means that they are unnaffected by spell such as ring of fire, malestrom, and crown of brilliance; but are affected by summons, other damage types, and passive effects like fear and Meshhaber of Dis ring of fire?

Magic Immune units would be unaffected by all spells except those they personally cast, including ring of fire, Meshabber's ring of fire, maelstrom, etc, and beneficial spells like Haste and Heal.

They are not immune to fear, and don;t have an intrinsic bonus versus summons. However, they are immune to Lightning, Cold, Death, and Fire damage, which means that some summons will be less effective.

(Now that I think of it, I don't think that they are blocked from being effected by python effects of spells. They are definitely immune to XML only ones, but some direct damage through python spells could still hurt them.)

Magic Immune units would be unaffected by all spells except those they personally cast, including ring of fire, Meshabber's ring of fire, maelstrom, etc, and beneficial spells like Haste and Heal.

They are not immune to fear, and don;t have an intrinsic bonus versus summons. However, they are immune to Lightning, Cold, Death, and Fire damage, which means that some summons will be less effective.

(Now that I think of it, I don't think that they are blocked from being effected by python effects of spells. They are definitely immune to XML only ones, but some direct damage through python spells could still hurt them.)

So, they would have the same problem as dragons then?

They can easily be diseases in combat, but would resist the Cure Disease spell??? The only way to cure them would be the obscure wonder Aqua Succellus. :(

Sometime magic immunity is not a good thing.

Can't Grigori medics cure diesese?

Yes they can, but Magic Immune units are immune to being cured. I'm thinking that a Luonnatar that was upgraded from a medic could still heal itself though.

Meta mage: (1st adept built) meta2...
Support mage: (2nd adept built) haste, treetop, sanctify, courage, shadowwalk
Garrison mage(s): mind, spirit2

Heroes: twincast, extension2, Enchantment3, Chaos3

If you cannot get a warrior/axe to level 6 (trapped by AI, can't war), use the 1st hero to make 1 luonnatar to escort the archmages and support mage. That's 5 units (loun, 3 archmage heroes plus mundane support mage) that can take any city in 1 turn, barring a fast move and can produce insurmountable defense in 1 turn.

Really, 3 twincast spellstaff grig archmages (fire or air or etc) break the game but chaos is the most fun. You need divination for inspiration on garrison adepts first, then adaptation for haste and then necro for chaos (and death for garrison) - after arcane for crown.

I thought Twincast was removed on account of being OP, or was that before the removale of targeted spells?
Magic immune also measn your own spells have no effect? That sucks, can cuse heal spell, courage, enchanted weapons, ect....

Twincast currently only effects summoning, not direst affect spells. So Fireball is doulbled, but Malestrom Isn't.

Darksaber1 is correct (although I'm trying to change that)

Twincast wasn't removed, but Meteor Shower was removed mostly because Twincast made it overpowered.

Darksaber1 is correct (although I'm trying to change that)

Twincast wasn't removed, but Meteor Shower was removed mostly because Twincast made it overpowered.
Are you building a time machine? ;)

I hope the same does not happen to wonder. I think this spell is a great thing. While balseraph druids with wonder are underwhelming (not worth it, domination is better even with keelyn), grig chaos3 archmages are amazing. From 3 of them: you get like 5-10 summons (mostly 10s), maelstrom, crush, bless, blur and valor; break staff, for a total of 10-20 summons and a few other spells - all in one turn. It's like 12 archmages casting all with combat5 (twincast = 6, spellstaff = 12) except like 30 spells go off and all the summons (with mobility2 and enhancement5) get doubled (wonder does 3-5 spells?).

Wonder needs to be tuned (let's start with no crush), but I can't imagine how to make it worth taking for Keelyn and yet balanced for grig. Did I mention a spell with multiple random effects is awesome?

With wonder, how many of the effects are negative for the caster/stack he is in? I have been thinking about using wonder, but I dont want, say, wither on my stack, that would suck.

With wonder, how many of the effects are negative for the caster/stack he is in? I have been thinking about using wonder, but I dont want, say, wither on my stack, that would suck.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6982705&postcount=19

Thanks, Mag.

What exactly does all that Python mean? I understand what effects it may give, but how are the effects weighted or are they strict probability with no weighting?

Also, can Adventurers get XP vie combat beyond 101? I have killed ALOT of lizardmen and orc spearmen with one, but he is still not going up in xp.

There is no Weighting to it. And if you want a non-code version, I have all the details in my Manual.

To gain more than 100 XP, you need to fight non-Barbarians.

Thanks. Wonder now seems like a really good spell.

It is, but effects can be weird, for instance, having the caster not do anything at the site were you cast, instead Escaping back to your capital, and doing it's effects there.

I don't find adventurers to be that amazing for most of the game. Giving up getting lots of great persons, when you are philosophical, is strange, especially since philosophical is much more powerful here than in regular BTS, as techs are expensive and specialization pays dividends.

What I find truly defining for the Grigori is not actually the adventurers, but the worldspell, and the philosophical trait. If you really want to use the worldspell for adventurers, I would shoot for immortals.

Have to say Wonder is really amazing indeed with twincast + Spellstaff (added Waterwalking and Stoneskin to the mix to make it even more fun in my current game. :p Luckyly had 4 nodes (aka got out of my way to get them) so i could without wasting many promotions.)

But since the Grigori have nothing else now (exept the Divine + Religion from Medics, but that sounds a bit like nonintended / exploit even if its nice for testing) and StoW takes a lot longer to reach now due to the new paths for bulbing + Wonder not beeing all that reliable i don't find it as overpowered as Meteor Swarm.
Still very nice but not completely over the top imo (and some minor imbalances are allright imo especially because the Grigori have been overnerfed by many changes anyways.).
If alone for the additional time to get them. Also Naval bombardment is not so effective and Terrain might a factor for most summons even with Extension 2. Also its a feat important only for Grigori / Amurites more or less...
Not completely unbalancing the magic-balance for all civs like Meteor Swarm did.

Also if stack busters should be nerfed (as opposed to removing crush from the list) its not such a big issue anymore anyways. Lets see what is to come.

And since escape is on the list it could go horribly wrong with 10 Summons in you capital and the need to walk back to the battlefield all the way. So luck is a bit of a balancer. Happens once in 20 Games perhaps but if it does, it might suck alot. Even if all but one Archmages go home and he gets unlucky on his rolls.

Sad to hear its not all that hot for Kyleen (still ok i imagine even if not on-par with domination). But that might be mitigated a bit by having a rather reliable supply of new Druids if needed so you can always Wonder-out-of-the-box with 4 Druids and don't need to shed a tear if one or the other goes down + they can walk impassable. Also its very much in line with Balseraph flavor.
But i imagine that especially for kyleen speed might be a huge factor again. I belive at normal Speed a pack of 4 druids casting Wonder and replenishing them if they go down is much more feasible than at quick.
So maybe i have to test firsthand at normal to see if that only holds true for quick gamespeed.

Sad to hear its not all that hot for Kyleen (still ok i imagine even if not on-par with domination). But that might be mitigated a bit by having a rather reliable supply of new Druids if needed so you can always Wonder-out-of-the-box with 4 Druids and don't need to shed a tear if one or the other goes down + they can walk impassable. Also its very much in line with Balseraph flavor.
But i imagine that especially for kyleen speed might be a huge factor again. I belive at normal Speed a pack of 4 druids casting Wonder and replenishing them if they go down is much more feasible than at quick.
So maybe i have to test firsthand at normal to see if that only holds true for quick gamespeed.

I made 3 druids from arena'd scouts, with 13-15xp each. They got mobility2, chaos 3. Even with three, the summons were too slow (no extension), too few (no twincast, no spellstaff) and too weak (no combat promos on the druids).

The big thing is that they are so slow without extension. You have to move right up to the city to attack it. With grig, the city is gone before you can even get close.

Perhaps I was just spoiled by grig, but I would not try Keelyn Chaos Druids again. It was weak. Maybe with a peak-intensive map it would be decent.

I was messing around earlier with the grigori medics... something odd happened though... somehow the first medic i trained in a city which order had spread to made the medic -secretly- decide to follow order :mischief:
order >> divine >> channelling III: unyielding order in my capital rofl...
think its a bug though :confused: i was so desperate for cheap unyielding order "entry-level priests" that i built half a dozen more but none of them decided to follow order :lol:

With wonder, how many of the effects are negative for the caster/stack he is in? I have been thinking about using wonder, but I dont want, say, wither on my stack, that would suck.

another issue with wonder -- on a crowded map -- is that you may not get warned if your spell will start a war with neutral foes (or has that been fixed?).

I was messing around earlier with the grigori medics... something odd happened though... somehow the first medic i trained in a city which order had spread to made the medic -secretly- decide to follow order :mischief:
order >> divine >> channelling III: unyielding order in my capital rofl...
think its a bug though :confused: i was so desperate for cheap unyielding order "entry-level priests" that i built half a dozen more but none of them decided to follow order :lol:

This has been discussed at length in other threads as a possible exploit.

If you manage to get a religion spread to your Grigori cities, build your Medics there. You have roughly a 20% chance that your Medic will pop out affiliated with that religion. He has Channeling II and will have the same 'superpowers' as a Priest of that religion. Also, of course, he has the healing/cure disease and can even get weapons promotions.

A further exploit of this with the Grigori I mentioned before is to beeline the Eyes and Ears Network and you will get the Disciple units for all the religions and spread them to your cities. Then, you have a chance to get Medics will all the religion affiliations and the superpowers that come with them!;)

cool~ actually its channelling II+III and divine ie you can have the same powers as those limited to the "high-priests"--except that you arent limited to a measly four and that you dont need to wait till level 6 to upgrade or need the required resource, just infirmaries.

thanks for the "tip" though ;) i went on to spam medics in my cities with religions instead of dragon slayers (went down the metal line for my last game). 2 str weaker than slayers no doubt, but with their (quote OP) "iron/mythril scapels" :lol: and that they could stay parked right next to enemy cities after DoW make them a real force to be reckoned with. Of course the added "perk" were all the order medics "unyielding ordering" my core cities for running a -pretty powerful- SE (though I never got any more adventurers after that)
The empyrean and veil medics were awesome "siege" machines with their crown/ring of fire to help the "weaker" scalping army of medics chew through city defenders with relative ease.

Then again although it could be a possible exploit but getting the religions into the cities are pretty hard to begin with. I gotta try your eyes and ears method next time though (^^)b
Well it did take me quite a long while to churn out those super medics considering the low 20% rate and that my cities with religions were those i recently conquered and that i had to complete the infirmary on them first.

It is a 20% chance for each religion present in the city if the unit does not have one. I was under the impression that there was a 20% chance for the first religion then a 0.8*20% chance for the third, 0.8^2*20% chance for the 3rd, etc., but apparently the loop does not break when a religion is assigned so there is a 20% chance for each religion, but of course the religions earlier in the list would get overwritten and so be less likely.


Grigori Medics have Divine and Channeling II and III, so they have all the Priest and High Priest spells, without nay national limit of level requirements. The reason they have these promotions is so they can cast Cure Disease/Heal. It has been this way since 0.31, when the spell system was over hauled. (Also, I believe Grigori Medics were defensive only until about that time.) I've been suggesting getting rid of the promotions and moving the spells to Medic II and III, but this has been ignored. I also think that it would be good to remove the state religion prereq from priests but ass then to priest spells, in which case Medics would not be able to cast spells when owned by an Agnostic leader, plus and it would be harder to exploit switching religions.

I don't see this as unbalancing. Late game is where the Grigori face their biggest hardships anyway, and getting good Medics seems fairly reasonable. It's not like they are getting infinite archmages or anything.

How do you do thing with the Eyes and Ears Network? I got Guilds and built the thing, but I could not build any of the disciples. The FoL had spread to the E&EN city, but the icon for the Disciple of Leaves was grayed out and could not be selected. It said that I need a Temple, which is obviously not gonna happen for the Grigori.

How do you do thing with the Eyes and Ears Network? I got Guilds and built the thing, but I could not build any of the disciples. The FoL had spread to the E&EN city, but the icon for the Disciple of Leaves was grayed out and could not be selected. It said that I need a Temple, which is obviously not gonna happen for the Grigori.

charles, when I built the Eyes and Ears Network, I received seven free techs because I had open borders agreements with I think 2 or 3 AI civs.

They came one after another and I got the Nightwatch, Disciple of Leaves, Savant, Ecclesiastic, Thane of Kilmorph, Acolyte and the one for OO - I forgot the name right now.

I sent them to my capital where I build my units and tried to have all of them spread their religion to my capital city.

I got FOL, Empyrean, CoE, ROK and OO from those units. The Savant and Acolyte failed to spread. Looking back on it, I might have made out better if I spread them around to other cities in my civ, but, as I said, I specialized the capital to produce units.

As I mentioned, I got Medics with FOL, ROK, and Empyrean affiliations and the superpowers than came with Channeling II and III. I also got plenty that had nothing and deleted those. I'm a little surprised that I got none with OO, though.