Hello everyone, this is just a general post, not necessarily discussing gameplay. I have always been wondering why Bhall is a bit under-represented in-game. IMHO, she's one of the most interesting and distinguished gods, hands down, though I'm of course no expert of Erebus' mythology. As soon as the Clan converts to one of the great faiths, it seems as if the ties between Jonas and his ill-tempered mistress are gone for good (except for the fire man, of course). I really like playing the CoE, as they're a very unique civ- I have always imagined a fire-themed religion based on the barbarians and the Clan besides the Runes and the Fellowship.

It has also been hinted that Bhall has not totally succumbed to evil, as she spared her arch-angel who chose to remain in Heaven. Now, a kind of "redemption of Bhall" theme could be very interesting (I think it has been suggested before, when Clan leaders still had the Scorched Earth trait)...
ANother option- you may influence Bhall to leave Agares' camp (I doubt that mortals are that powerful in Erebus- but then again, we have had a Kylorin before). Maybe that could happen with a high AC?
The new terrain improvement (I have forgotten its name, but it was an ancient temple) included in 2.25 hints at some more fascinating backstory.
Is she just a part of the Ashen Veil's pandaemonium, or are there other people apart from the orcs who worship her?

But as the number of religions is final now in Shadow, the last two religions included being the Empyrean and the Council (btw, any chances for the White Hand making a re-appearance in Ice?) there seems to be no place for a fire religion. (Maybe post-Fall Orcs are just lacking the intellectual qualities for an organised clergy etc.- but Sheelba's story has seemingly hinted at a different possibility) Are minor cults in Shadow, like the CotD or (maybe, maybe) a primitive fire-worshipping religion to be implemented with BTS-corporation/guilds system? (as for the last question: maybe I am asking too much here...)

Huh, that post has become too long again :blush: ...

Well, we already have enough religions using fire magic: The oRder, the Ashen Veil, and probably the Empyrean (Althhough they might just use sunspells that seem like fire. It has been stated that a large number of Bhalls angels remained holy and defected to other gods, most of them to Lugus. This division is likely why fire is so easily controlled, regardless of alignment)

The ashen Veil makes most seinse for Bhall worshipers, since their goddess fell and now shares a Heaven/vault/hell with Agares himself.

Its hard for me to picture a redemption of Bhall senario. If this kind of thing were to take place, I would prefer and "Ascension of Brigit" senario. (Brigit was that archangel of Bhall who remained holy until the end. She led her forces against her mistress, but was defeated. The only sign that there may be good left in Bhall is that she couldn't bring herself to destroy the Beauty of Brigit, so she instead imprisoned her in a cage of ice, for to the north. This is the cause of the northern lights.) It seem to me like if Bhall did return to the side of good, she would still be too broken to think her self worthy of godhood and would give her power over to Brigit. Or, Brigit could just be freed and continue the fight against her mistress.

I think it has been said that the White hand (and even Drifa the white dragon) may make a return in some of the scenarios in Ice. Ice will really just be Shadow made compatible with a broad range of scenarios. There may be some sort of options so allow/disallow major features like religions.

Bhall was once the goddess of the Bannor, but that in addition to pulling some of them strait into hell with her the others were corrupted in body and mind, having their holy crusade turn to blood lust. They became cruel mockeries of mankind, with bone tearing through their very skin. This suggests to me that the "fair creatures, friendly to the elves" that the Orks used to be might actually have been humans from the same stock as their hated adversaries, the Bannor (although this is just my theory, I have no confirmation of it. They could have been some other race that worshipped the same goddess) Who knows, Capria may be Orthus's great-aunt.


Men mimicked the gods during the Age of Magic. There was no good magic in that age, all sorcery was dark and corrupt so the most fierce battles were between the armies of the wizards and those of the holy. Eventually the one empire of men was split by this war into 10 countries.

One of those countries, the Bannor, was made up of the most pure. Fire was the weapon of the holy and Bhall was the greatest enemy of the corrupt. The Bannor venerated Bhall, they burnt evil cities to the ground and it is said that the holy could walk through fire without being burnt in those days.

Agares realized that it was only a matter of time until the Holy won their war. The countries that venerated evil gods were growing weaker. The greatest students of Kylorin were falling, Laroth and Gastrius were dead, Perpentach was locked within the Tower of Eyes (which held his body, but his mind wandered through creation and farther reaches).

So Agares began whispering to Bhall, playing to her pride. She was the greatest angel, enemies fled before her armies. The compact allowed a god to act only accoridng to the faith of her followers, and that gave Bhall the greatest power in creation. The evil god she was responsible for opposing, Mulcarn, was the least of the gods. The few people that followed him were relegated to the wastes, inconsequential and without power.

But Bhall's fall from heaven changed everything. The world caught fire, meteors pummeled creation, fields burned. But that didn't compare to what happened to the Bannor. Most strongly tied to Bhall they were transformed into cruel mockeries of mankind. Strong and savage, bones tore through their skin and their holy crusades became a bloodlust they could not control.

The greatest temple of Bhall was in the Bannor capital of Braduk. And Bhalls fall was literal. She fell through her vault, through the sky, through creation, through the world and into hell. She struck the world at Braduk and although most of the people were killed instantly some were dragged into hell with her.

Deep in hell and abandoned by their goddess no one expected these lost Bannor to survive. And they wouldn't have if Junil hadn't sent Sabathiel to guide them. It was a long difficult path through generations of the Bannor bent on survival. Their survival through the physical threats was the stuff of legend. But the real threats of hell are more insidious. Any spiritual weakness, any temptation was exploited and those that couldn't remain pure were a risk to the survival of everyone. Strict rules were developed, it was only a fanatical devotion to those rules (both in the physical and the spiritual) that allowed them to survive. A devotion that exists to this day.




There could be several new cults added in Shadow, but none have been mentioned yet. I don't see them using the guild mechanics though, especially since the Cult of the Dragon has been reworked, and cults (which cannot be adopted) are easily made by just changing a 0 to a 1 in the religions file.

Ah, thank you very much for this much-needed clarification- very insightful, as this explains the enmity between Bannor and Clan (I thought the ancestors of the Orcs were lured by the smoldering ruins of Braduk into the former Bannor lands)!

So this is how it is going to work... I basically saw the religions as "mono"-/henotheistic (Junil, Kilmorph, Agares) sets of beliefs (only the Overlords and maybe the Fellowship struck me as rather "polytheistic") before. Yet is it still possible for the blood-thirsty ORcish cult (massive human and angel sacrifice!?) of Bhall to be implemented into the game as was the Empyrean before (Malakim UU, the Lightbringer)? Are there any humans who dare to worship Bhall (in a fashion similar to the Illians) or have they all become orcs/goblins/ogres etc. ?

Wait... i've read the Pedia article before, and remember having he same question then.

who, really is perpentach?

(i say we turn this thread into a thread to develope a unified mythology that makes sense for erebus)

I don't know if she still has any human followers or not, but when she fell Bhall's priests were all either driven completely mad, or (if they were still good) they were left powerless and eventually sacrificed to Bhall by the masses who though that the rain of fire was caused by their priests angering their goddess in some way.

Well, Take Fizban/Zifnab for your reference and I'd venture a guess as to who Perpentarch might actually be ;)

If you want to see the answer of whether Bhall has human followers, come to play the Heart of Winter rpg (non-canon answer of course)

In the real world, falling into evil means you begin committing evil acts. In a fantasy world, your physical and mental construct begins to change to, for most fantasy worlds are physical depictions of metaphorical issues in our own world. Having this in mind, I believe Bhall's fall is final, which fits better with the orcs that she now leads. I don't see why anyone would think that Bhall is less evil than the other evil gods.

I find Kilmorph more interesting. It almost seems that she's neutral but leaning on the good side.

The gods in FfH are change their minds quite often, one can never know...

in the current timeframe of FFH Bhall is dead. I remember reading it in the Age of Ice scenario....

Not dead but in a kind of coma.
She woke up in the age of rebirth and became the god of the Clan of Embers

in the current timeframe of FFH Bhall is dead. I remember reading it in the Age of Ice scenario....

That depends on if Gods/Angels can die. I believe Mulcarn's spirit has been reborn an taken control of Auric Ulvin. Or something like that.

Yeah, shes not dead. She just fell (went from good to evil). During the Age of Ice she is laying in hell recovering from the effects of her change. Now thats shes evil she doesn't have any reason to go fight her traditional advesary (Mulcarn). It isn't until the Age of Rebirth that she starts to act upon creation (within the scope fo the compact) again.

Yeah, shes not dead. She just fell (went from good to evil). During the Age of Ice she is laying in hell recovering from the effects of her change. Now thats shes evil she doesn't have any reason to go fight her traditional advesary (Mulcarn). It isn't until the Age of Rebirth that she starts to act upon creation (within the scope fo the compact) again.

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

Mulcarn's celestial body is slain but he can be brought to life like Sucellus

Well, I said the day before in Jonas' story.

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

She brought her old followers (the Bannor) with her to hell. The strong survived, and with the help of Sabathiel, the archangel of Junil, they managed to escape. The Bannor's patron isn't Bhall anymore, its Junil, which is also the Orders patron god.
Bhall has new followers since she fell, and that is the clan.

How early in the age of rebirth?
Is it logical for their followers to still fight although she has fallen?

Early in the age of Rebirth (see Jonas's pedia entry for one of her her first actions).

Bhall had a lot of followers among many civilizations in the Age of Magic (especially the Bannor), when she fell her worshippers were transformed into mishapen feral violent killers. Over generations these creatures became orcs, goblins, ogres, etc.

edit: updated my answer to fit our canon (I had forgotten Nikis-Knight had documented one of Bhall's first actions on creation).

interesting....

I know but if there are some humans who worship Bhall are they likely to fight Mulcarn's worshippers if their closeness causes tensions?

Evil is always willing to fight evil. It is just a question of how openly.

I know but if there are some humans who worship Bhall are they likely to fight Mulcarn's worshippers if their closeness causes tensions?

Well, both those groups are likely to be rare and outcasts in the wider society, out side of Illian lands specifically. (Clan are unlikely to be often friendly with humans even if they worship Bhall.)
So they would probably be hiding their true allegiences, but even if they both knew of each other's motives, I'd say they could reasonably go either way.

Mulcarn's celestial body is slain but he can be brought to life like Sucellus

I kinda wonder about this. The backstory specifically states that the Godslayer's power to kill an angel was something that no angel had on his own, and that Mulcarn couldn't kill Sucellus, just scatter his body. It doesn't seem like Death by the Godslayer should be as easy to recover from as having your body scattered, but not truly killed. Still, it does seem like Mucarns soul lives on in Auric Ulvin, so his ressuraction may not be wholly impossible.



"As a symbol of this alliance a weapon of great power was made, the Godslayer, a weapon with the power to slay an angel, and the weapon was given over to the most powerful of human men, a warrior named Finner. This was a power that none of the angels had on their own"


"Sucellus was beaten and since Mulcarn couldn’t kill him he broke Sucellus into 7 parts and scattered him throughout all of Creation."

At least The One would have the power to bring Mulcarn back to life but I'm sure it won't happen.

At least The One would have the power to bring Mulcarn back to life but I'm sure it won't happen.

The One is good. Of course he wouldn't help an ally of Agares.

In my opinion, rather than a Bhall religion, a religion based around tundra/snow. At least deserts have the floodplains, but tundra have nothing. Rather than adding in the White Hand (Mulcarn is Dead), Perhaps centered around Camulos, or a parthenon of animal idols.

I seriously doubt there will be any new religions or 'cults' added into the official FFH. FFh is all about 3s and 7s and 21s, there are already 7 religions. CotD has been changed into a guild and there are 7 guilds being added in. There isn't any room for another religion.

True,

there is no room anymore for a major religion (that you can adopt as a state religion)

However as you rightly said, FFH is all about 3s, 7s and 21s.

Currently there are 7 religions and 7 Guilds = 14 ....

We are missing the last entity, maybe 7 .. cults ?

So what I mean to say is that there 21 Gods, but as I understood only 14 of them got either a religion or a guild.

You might argue that the Land Features like this Pyramid of Fire or the Tomb of Sucellus are representation enough, but then there has to be a stronger link between these features and their respective Civs.

AFAIK not all the guilds are religious/have a god.

Also, the Cult of the Dragon is a guild now, so it would be kinda stupid if other cults added in weren't guilds. There are 7 guilds. I would like to see a Bhall religion in ffh, I started a thread about it a little while ago, but it's just not gonna happen in the official mod.

I think if you really want one you have to mod it yourself or get someone else to mod one...

True,

i just checked it there is no clear indication for gods with the most guilds :

You could make following assumptions :

1)Cult of the Dragon
obviously no Angel, but some Dragon

2)Circle of Gaelen
Ceridwen- Angel of the Stars (Dimensional), who first brought magic to man. Worshipped by the Emrys
or
Oghma- Angel of Knowledge (Metamagic)

3) Guild of Hammers
Mammon- Angel of Greed (Mind). Worshipped by the Stewards of Inequity.
or
Nantosuelta- Angel of Faith (Enchantment),

better

Kilmorph- Angel of the Earth (Earth)

4) Guild of the Nine
Arawn- Angel of Death (Death), Arawn is almost completly uninterested in what is happening in the world as his attention is on the underworld. He ignores what few worshippers he has.

5) Aerons Bounty
Aeron- Angel of Hate (Body), spirit of rage, god of the berserkers

6) Ratcatchers Guild
Esus- Angel of Deception (Shadow), sacred to thieves and liars. Worshipped by the Council of Esus

7)Brotherhood of Wardens
Sirona- Angel of Wisdom (Spirit)

but these are mere possible preferences but nowhere links.

So actually we are really missing a respresentation for the unworshipped 14 Gods. The best way could be to implement a landscape feature for each of them in the same way like we have now the Tomb of Sucellus, the Shrine of Sirona, The Barbatos-Crypt (Death Mana=Arawn) etc.

The broken sepulcher (barbatos's crypt) doesn't represent Arawn at all. Arawn is disgusted by necromancy and liches etc. He hashardly any worshippers and he ignores them anyway so I don't think he needs anything like that.

Also, I think the current religions, at least some of them, have pantheons. Eg. Av gods, Agares, Bhall,might be others too.

Also, I think the current religions, at least some of them, have pantheons. Eg. Av gods, Agares, Bhall,might be others too.

Yes, the FoL worships Suceullos(Life), Cerunnos(Nature), and I think the creation god. AFAIK, all the religions gave one major god (AV=Agares, Order= Junil) and two minor. You should read the rligion thread, though I cannot find it's link.

AFAIK FoL woship "the elves", RoK worship Kyllmorph, Order Junil, AV "a dark entity" (Agares), and Octopi the demons that whisper to Danalin.

don't you mean 'the elves' worsip FOL?

AFAIK FoL woship "the elves", RoK worship Kyllmorph, Order Junil, AV "a dark entity" (Agares), and Octopi the demons that whisper to Danalin.

I found this thread on the religions. Towards teh bottom of the 1st post it tells each god and their religion/guild. However, other gods are worshipped in each relgion. Fellowship of Leaves worships foremost Cernunnos (God of Nature), but also, though in a more secondary role, Sucellus and Amathaon. For the Ashen Veil, Agares is the petron god, though Bhall and Aeron are venerated as well. I beleive each relgion has 3 gods it venerates, though each has a major god.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=159362

The Order worships only Junil, but they are tolerant of the followers of Sirona and Lugus (but require the Priests of these other good gods to assist in their crusades, primarily as medics). (A lot of the Order's followers, especially among the Bannor, probably consider Sabathiel to be their god, but he is subservient to Junil. Also, the Temple of Temperance Civilopedia entry and the story of how The One created everything make me wonder if they also worship "Temperance," the orb that controls time, and the One himself. (Of course, the religion eventually became quite hostile to those serving the One, i.e., the Luonnatar.) I suspect that Junil may have originally intended the religion to be one serving The One and that he modeled it after the way thing were in the True Heaven, but then got caught up in the rituals and regulations and slowly fell away from his original purpose. That is a major problem with Law in general, and since FfH's gods are manifestations of their spheres they suffer from all the character flaws inherent in their spheres. I actually wouldn't be surprised if he were the next god to fall, although I don't think he would chose to join Agares so much as just become more harmful to his own side than helpful.)

The Empyrean is pretty clearly a Lugus worshiping religion. I suspect that they are even more tolerant of the worship of other good gods/goddesses than is the Order, especially of Sirona (We know that it values wisdom. Lugus is the god of Sun/light/Truth and Sirona of Spirit/Wisdom. These to tend to go hand in hand.)


The Runes of Kilmorph is pretty much just a Kilmorph only religion, as the name implies.

The Fellowship of the Leaves worships nature rather than a god, but in doing so they certainly venerate the gods most associated with nature: Cernunnos, Sucellus, Amathaon, and quite possibly also Arawn (they certainly seem to recognize the importance of death as a stage in the natural cycle of life. They likely also appreciate him gifting half of his domain to Sucellus). They probably also have some appreciation for Kilmorph (she is also the goddess of Autumn/Harvest), Danalin (plants need rain), Tali (also a god of spring, his storms help provide rain and spread seeds/pollen), and Lugus (at least if plants perform photosynthesis, which they probably don't) as well.

The Octopus Overlords religion does not worship a god; they worship dark entities created by the effective dreams of Hemah, who in turn was created by the the effective dreams of Danalin. These dreams are being horribly corrupted by the influence of Mammon's demons (especially Hastur), but they aren't in control of them. Elements of good may still remain in Danalin's, and thus Hemah's, dreams, so the Overlords aren't entirely evil. They are certainly not the same beings as the demons that are twisting Danalins dreams, and these demons aren't worshiped by the OO. (On the other hand, it was based on numerous cults that worshiped various Beasts, most of which were Demons of Mammon who had gotten lost in Oghama's mists and forgotten who they were. But the Octopus Overlords never really existed in Kaels campaigns, so I prefer my fist explanation.)

The Council of Esus naturally venerates Esus, however, the nature of the religion makes me think its followers probably aren't very devout followers of any of the gods. (Of course, they would be willing to feign devotion to anyone, but only for selfish reasons of their own.)

The Ashen Veil serves the many denizens of Agares's hell. Foremost among them Agares and Bhall, but they'll really serve any of the evil gods that give them power. However, I would say that the religion is actually mostly Autotheistic; its followers do whatever they can to gain god-like powers for themselves, despite hating and fearing those they serve. I'm not sure whether I would call what they do worship either.

(at least if plants perform photosynthesis, which they might not)
They don't:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4083543&postcount=8

Yeah, I know that Kael said there wasn't photosynthesis so that his Tebryn Arbandi Armageddon ritual campaign would make sense in his D&D game (hence the conditional), but since I don't think the years without sunlight have been confirmed as happening in the FfH history I left open the possibility. At least one of the team members (Nikis-Knight) didn't seem to know about the lack of photosynthesis, and when I mentioned it recently proposed that it might just be one of multiple ways plants feed themselves (like relying on channeling nature mana) or that Sucellus used his power to miraculously sustain them for a time, although they would usually need light.

Also, the Temple of Temperance Civilopedia entry and the story of how The One created everything make me wonder if they also worship "Temperance," the orb that controls time,I assumed that temperance was another name for the universe. I.e., everyone is inside of that orb.

Perhaps. I would have assumed that it referred to the earth/globe, but Erebus is supposed to be flat.

Orb of Temperance? You're saying that the universe is round but the Earth is flat I suppose?

I don't know - I have EXTREME difficulty imagining a flat world. Where would the ocean water come from? If they flow off the cliff then when would the oceans dry up? Would the edges of the world be contained by an invisible wall of stone or what? How deep can you dig into the sea-bed, and how high could you go up the sky? I consider myself extremely good at visualization, and I don't see how one can imagine a flat Erebus. Unless Erebus is supported from below by... the infinite plane of hell. Bhall fell through Erebus into hell right? So if you walk off the edge of Erebus would you also fall off into hell? Or is Erebus itself an infinitely large plane?

I said before that Bhall's fall into evil should be permenant, but that does not make her a reliable one. I would not think Agares would trust her to the most important moves, as she might waver out of empathy where morality failed her. To be honest, I'm not even sure if she's really that evil anymore: the priests of Junil do have some rather powerful fire spells right?

There's no 'edge'. Whether through magic, dimensional twisting, or a mystical rutabaga, you can just keep 'walking' in any single direction you wish, and you'll eventually wind up in the same spot.

That's how I envision it, anyway. Play Nikis-Knight's map if you want further help envisioning it ;)

There's no 'edge'. Whether through magic, dimensional twisting, or a mystical rutabaga, you can just keep 'walking' in any single direction you wish, and you'll eventually wind up in the same spot.

That's how I envision it, anyway. Play Nikis-Knight's map if you want further help envisioning it ;)

How big do you think Erebus is?
Does one have to walk for 1000, 10 000 or 100 000 miles to get "around" it?

I have no clue. Big enough to hold all nations.

Been reading the Lore on Erebus, and I do hope that someday they change Oceans to Mist ;) (which would answer your question of where the Oceans go to. There aren't any.)

According to the Lore, the plane of existence for Erebus is the "Heaven" of Oghma. There are lots of important details about what everything is, but it boils down to: This is a construct of one of the Angels, it does as the Angel wills it to do. Hence, it can easily be flat, Cylindrical or Donut shaped.

The reason we can safely say it isn't round: In a round world, you can circumnavigate the poles in fewer moves than you can circumnavigate the equator. That simply isn't an option in Civ, so the world simply isn't round. Your options are:
Flat (typically regarded as just a section of a whole world)
Cylindrical (sides connect, top & bottom block you off. Closest Civ comes to approximating a round world, you assume that the area of the poles where it actually is different than the equator are not accessible)
Toroidal (My personal favorite for maps. You can wrap top to bottom and side to side. However, this means your world is Donut shaped)

Who are the followers of Sironia?

the elohim

The cylindrical map is supposed to approximate the sphere by claiming that the poles are too hostile for anyone to travel. Remember also that distance = speed x time, so assuming that it's harder to travel on colder climates than warmer ones, the "enlarged" areas are actually accurately represented, and units just take longer to travel. Of course we are imagining large ice caps here, not the ones on Earth that are about to disappear in 10 years. Why are large ice caps so hard to imagine anyway? This is the end of the age of ice!

Torodial maps can be donut, they can also be spherical, albeit with "distorted" dimensions as usual. Either way, I STILL cannot accept that Erebus is flat. I can't imagine a flat world, nor could I imagine Bhall falling through the ground into hell. There is also another problem though.

When the Bannor were in Hell, there weren't really humans, but rather souls, without flesh, but with souls that can be injured, captured and tortured again. But they can't be "killed", because they're already "dead". Perhaps this need clarification: once a human enters hell, the flesh becomes "shade-nature", the very physical nature of everything changes. Once you enter a portal back to the mortal realm, you become "substantial" again, and then you can be killed just like normal. If my interpretation is correct, Bhall could not have literally fell through the ground into hell, for that would imply that hell and Erebus have the same "nature of existance" or "rules of physics". Similarly, demons cannot just burst through the ground into Erebus and burn up the whole place. They have to be summoned by a portal, an alternate and parallel dimension of existance that cannot be reached via any amount of physical travelling, just like travelling any distance along the surface of the Earth will not get you to the moon.

She did literally fall, but not due to gravity. Something like, when she embraced Agares' plan, she was pushed from the "heavenly" plane, through the mortal to the "hellish" planes. Pushed or fled, "fall" may not the the best way of putting it as a physical action, but she passed through the physical realm on her way to her new home.

You have to assume there are some rules beyond physics that effect all dimensions of temporance whether or not they share the same common physical laws.

The big rule of FfH is that the gods will is manifested in Erebus, intentionally or unintentionally. Their agreement to withdraw from direct action in creation created the godslayer, their fears created the horsemen, and bhalls corruption was physically manifested as well.

You are right that hell and Erebus don't share the same reality (you can't dig down x feet to get to hell), but Bhalls fall created a physical connection between those two worlds. And the bulk of braduk was dragged down to hell with her.