Vote for your favorite entry. Voting remains open until December 9th.

Arcane Academy
by zxcvbnmRequires: Arcane lore, lvl 6 arcane unit
800 Hammers
+10% production speed with each mana sphere the builder has access to
+3 great sage, unlimited sage or 3[?] sage
(+1 free reagents, the training of the Academy allows the mages to create their own reagents)
(+2 Culture)
doubles the rate arcane units gain xp inside the city, (very valuable for getting high-level archmages)
+3 Unhealthy because of the dangerous residue of magical experiments left around, (you know, the mages aren't very good in cleaning up their mess...)

City of a Thousand Slums
by Kol.7-20% Culture
+20% maintainance

Evil civs only

Allows the city it is built in to access the third ring of tiles around it (ala Sprawling trait)

Allows a civ to create a very large and powerful town. Would work well any civ with god-king if the slums were built in the capital, especially the calabim who I kind of had in mind when I was thinking about this.

Conclave of Blades
by TravellingHatA college for training wizards in the arts of warfare against enemies both magical and mundane, though such lessons take time (hence the whacking production penalty!).

Tech Required: Warfare
Other requirements: Mage Guild, Training Yard
Double Production: Enchantment Mana
Cost: 800
GPP: Great Commander +2
Specialists: Can run one sage

Edit: Military production times doubled. Would that be -50%?
New adepts built in this city receive Enchanted Blade, Magic Resistance and become eligible for weapon upgrades.
New melee units built in this city receive Enchanted Blade.

The Holy Ale Great Brewery
by Pandemonis"Beer is living proof that [insert god's name here] loves us and wants us to be happy." Dwarf saying (Actually a genuine quote from Benjamin Franklin)

Requirement:
Crafting, city must have a brewery.
Cost: 700
+2 Culture, +4 Gold
+2 GPP (Merchant)
Provide a Brewery in each city of the civilization, regardless of access to river.

Mirror Mirror
by formless blobThis scrying mirror allows the owner to search his empire for the fairest maidens. The magic of the mirror is such, that any maidens found are spellbound to head to their new master. These maiden can then be sold to the local nobility for great profit.

Cost: 800
Prerequisite: Omniscience
Effect: +3 Happy in this city, +1 Unhappy in all other cities you own. The revenue created is equal to +1 per city you own.

Balance suggestion: To make it more powerfull, the bad effect could include, or only apply to, enemy cities.

Pan's Meadow
by Rex rgis of TerCost 250
+5 Culture
+2 GPP (Great Artist)

Requires Way of the Forest, Fellowship of Leaves State Religion

The Meadow brings great Joy to the Lands surrrounding the Meadow. Every Forest, Ancient Forest, etc., gains +1 Hammer.

Port Royal
by Frozen Vomit(can have any name actually - if there is a legendary harbor like this in ffh lore.)

Requires: Blasting Powder
?
+2 Culture
+2 foreign trade routes
+100% trade income in this city
+2 GPP (merchant)

+2 relations with civs who have foreign trade
-2 with civs that have mercantilism

City can not be blockaded, enemy and hidden nationality ships take damage when they are in the cities fat cross.

(Gives line of sight to every city with a harbor when the civ uses foreign trade. Not sure about that one...)

"Look at it - a marvel of civilization. Ships are coming in and bring goods and rumors from all seven (?) oceans. On a busy day like this you could surely think that this is the center of Erebus." - Geert ?, Harbormaster

"High and insurmountable are it's walls and far roar it's cannonballs. Many a proud ship was lost in the calm water of this bay - fortresses like this clearly mean the end of piracy" - ?, Lanun Captain

Sacrifice to Bhall
by CXDamian900 Hammers
Requires: Summoning
Requires: Neutral or Evil Alignment
Grants peace to barbarians for 15 turns(if not already at peace, if so ignored)
Spawns 1 random Planar Gate unit(barbarian) in each of the players cities, with mobility 1

i also really like port royal and pan's meadow. I wouldn't mind if more than one made it in. I think FFH is a bit light on wonders. (particularly builder friendly wonders, many of the current ones seem geared toward a warmonger style.)

Pan's meadow is cool, I suppose it means +1 hammer to every forest in the empire, not only those surrounding the city? And arcane academy is something I wanted for a long time.

thousand slums attracted me.. but mirrors mirror is so cool, balanced and all !!
and I knew thousand slums was so cool my vote won't change the outcome

pan's meadow with Ljos under FoL...base 3-2 or 2-3 tiles, possibility to add cottages or farms. If it's 1 city it'd be ok, if it's the entire empire it'd be crazy. Expecially with 250 hammers, i can see it being some sort of green moai statues.

Still a tough decision. Can't we have 3-4 implemented? :P

Including a couple that didn't even make it to the vote?

The others were nice too, but the City of a Thousand Slums just had to get my vote. The flavor value of it hit me like a thousand volts.

In earlier wonder poll the 2 most popular ones were implemented in the game.

Having several of these is not only possible but seems likely.

In earlier wonder poll the 2 most popular ones were implemented in the game.

Having several of these is not only possible but seems likely.

:yup: There will be a winner in each category that gets to dine with Kael and his girlfriend, Rosie O'Donnel, while certainly some others will find their way into the game.

:yup: There will be a winner in each category that gets to dine with Kael and his girlfriend, Rosie O'Donnel, while certainly some others will find their way into the game.

Woodelf is just jealous because she left him for me.

Woodelf is just jealous because she left him for me.

So power ain't everything :p

Arcane Academy
by zxcvbnm
Requires: Arcane lore, lvl 6 arcane unit
800 Hammers
+10% production speed with each mana sphere the builder has access to
+3 great sage, unlimited sage or 3[?] sage
(+1 free reagents, the training of the Academy allows the mages to create their own reagents)
(+2 Culture)
doubles the rate arcane units gain xp inside the city, (very valuable for getting high-level archmages)
+3 Unhealthy because of the dangerous residue of magical experiments left around, (you know, the mages aren't very good in cleaning up their mess...)

Conclave of Blades
by TravellingHat
A college for training wizards in the arts of warfare against enemies both magical and mundane, though such lessons take time (hence the whacking production penalty!).

Tech Required: Warfare
Other requirements: Mage Guild, Training Yard
Double Production: Enchantment Mana
Cost: 800
GPP: Great Commander +2
Specialists: Can run one sage

Edit: Military production times doubled. Would that be -50%?
New adepts built in this city receive Enchanted Blade, Magic Resistance and become eligible for weapon upgrades.
New melee units built in this city receive Enchanted Blade.


I would really like to mix these two up increasing the usefulness of the arcane troops.

Requires: Arcane lore, Warfare, lvl 6 arcane unit
800 Hammers
+10% production speed with each mana sphere the builder has access to
(+2 Culture)
doubles the rate arcane units gain xp inside the city, (very valuable for getting high-level archmages)
+3 Unhealthy because of the dangerous residue of magical experiments left around, (you know, the mages aren't very good in cleaning up their mess...)
+2 Unhappy (boot camp for crazy magicains??)
Military production times doubled. Would that be -50%?
New adepts built in this city receive Enchanted Blade, Magic Resistance and become eligible for weapon upgrades.
New melee units built in this city receive Enchanted Blade.

Thet would be a wonder to make the arcane units usable. Today they are still the weakest units in any stack and as time continues a arcane unit is supposed to get mighty but even a High Mage cant survive outside the camp of a hero and 4-5 scouts for 5 rnds.

I had the idea of making them mutually exclusive so you would need to choose either the mundane or arcane specialisation for your adepts

I like the slums, and almost voted for it, but doesn't it take a bit away from the uniqueness of the Kuriotates (sp? the sprawling ones)?

Considering that it can't be built in settlements it definitely needs sumthin' else for them
(see the Q&A thread for this and other issues of these wonders)

or else not make it give "sprawling" to the city but : "access to 1 more ring"
thus kuriorates would have a city with 4rings in its fat cross !!! awsome !!

(as a side note, even more than for units and events, I feel like 3-4 wonders here are interesting to be added ... not just one..
like (in random order) :
sacrifice to bhall...
arcane academy AND conclave of blades if mutually exclusive in a same civ. (idea from zxcvbnm in the Q&A thread)
thousand slums.
...etc.

it is not as if FfH has too many wonders... especially as some have been added as terrain feature and thus removed from the building queue..)

Need more votes for Port Royal come on people!

I'm just a little concerned with City of a Thousand Slums being evil-only. When combined with Sacrifice the Weak, won't this give Evil a *tremendous* advantage in terms of population?

ohoh.. I didn't read it... I thought it would be an all-civ world wonder, independant of alignement

it it is restricted, it lose some appeal

Yeah but it only affects one city so I think it would be fine really. I Agree with the 1 extra ring idea instead of 'gives sprawling trait', it would really give the kuriotates a motive for joining evil...

@ophite: There are plenty of other legit ways to get huge bonuses over other civs, once as the sheaim, small pangaea, my starting position was next to the Remnants of Patria. I owned that game.

In designing it I thought it would lose flavour if good civs could build it, it just doesn't seem right. Maybe evil and neutral?

Yeah but it only affects one city so I think it would be fine really.
Consider the same city having the Tower of Complacency and running sacrifice the weak.

I haven't done the math, but I suspect that with Sacrifice the Weak, you could get a population well over 100.

Don't get me wrong--I voted for it--but I think that it's better if it could be a way to *compete* with Sacrifice the Weak, rather than as merely an enhancer for it.

-- ACS

Yeah well, it was kinda intended to make the city very high population. Hence slums. Anyway if it gets in the team can tweak it and balance it if it is considered unfair.

I voted Mirrors Mirror, as long as the +1 unhappy is applied to any city in the world except where it's built. My comments on other Wonders:

Arcane Academy : a bit too much of everything...
City of a Thousand Slums: this is a nice idea, but I don't like the restriction to evil civs, by the description it should be at least allowed to neutral civs at least. The main concern though, as has been pointed, is the added power it can have with STW or some other things... would be probably a bit too much. I don't see a need to help evil civs right now.
Conclave of Blades: I actually like this idea, its only flaw was to be second in my list :/
Great Brewery: Not a bad idea but not as interesting as other proposals.
Pan's Meadow: Definitely don't like it because it is limited to FoL and because forest tiles with FoL don't really need another bonus !
Port Royale: A good idea but like the Brewery not as attractive !
Sacrifice to Bhall: Again something prevented to Good civs... not only there has been no idea to help Good guys vs AC and Evil guys, it seems Evil should be helped even more ! Aside from this, isn't Bhall dead ?

I haven't done the math, but I suspect that with Sacrifice the Weak, you could get a population well over 100.

Don't get me wrong--I voted for it--but I think that it's better if it could be a way to *compete* with Sacrifice the Weak, rather than as merely an enhancer for it.

-- ACS

The Math:
36 tiles (with the slums)
grassland-farm-agriculture-sanitation-SotW

--->36*(2+1+1+1)/1 pop
=36*5 pop
=180 pop!

Of which 36 are used to work the terrain
leaving 144 pop to specialists or citizens
->144+(num. engineers)-(num. non-priests nor engineers):hammers:

With Calabim and feasting
>100 xp per turn

Sad thought, but I think most players play evil civs because the mechanics currently are very nice and because they are now overpowered (funny, it used to be the contrary) and voted for a Wonder that will improve the fun and power of evil civs even more...

no I voted vecause I though it was for all alignements...

even bannor can have slums... in order to help all those poor people... and with protect the meak, those slums are quite habitable .. no ?? ?please...?? pretty please?? ...pretty please with a cherry on top ??

The only civ that doesn't have crowded slums is Sidar, because there aren't enough of them to make a slum.

The Math:
36 tiles (with the slums)
grassland-farm-agriculture-sanitation-SotW

--->36*(2+1+1+1)/1 pop
=36*5 pop
=180 pop!

Of which 36 are used to work the terrain
leaving 144 pop to specialists or citizens
->144+(num. engineers)-(num. non-priests nor engineers):hammers:

With Calabim and feasting
>100 xp per turn

no good way to get 180 health in a city, likely no good way to get over 20 health. so you need 2 food per population after 20 or whatever your health maxes at

no good way to get 180 health in a city, likely no good way to get over 20 health. so you need 2 food per population after 20 or whatever your health maxes at

Ok

If we think health ends at 30 with lots of food resources

It's 30 pop+(150/2+resource bonus)pop =>105 pop

A lot still.

With the elves, ancient forests, elven farms, extra health etc:

:faint:

Only the Infernals can beat it with virtually unlimited pop

I voted for Pan's Meadow, but with the caveat that I wouldn't restrict it to FoL followers but give other people a shot at getting it too, to boost a forest-heavy city. It's inherently balanced for them due to the lack of food in those tiles, so it wouldn't be more effective than the Statues in vanilla. Unless the city's under Sacrifice the Weak I guess :)

I think that City of a Thousand Slums as implemented now would be really overpowered.For a city which would take advantage of a third ring, a mere +20%mainteinance cost is really low and it can be even more lowered by relocating the capital in this city.If you also consider to adopt God King the city becomes too much unbalancing considering that you get a free 1/3 Sprawling trait without its restrictions.

IMO Mainteinance Costs should be really increased for that wonder, and its additional mainteinance costs mustn't be in percentage like +20% or +25% because it would be mindless to relocate capital in this city to cut mainteinance costs and in most cases to adopt God King.

The Wonder should have a raw mainteinance cost like 25 gold/turn (less or more based on game balance) which can be increased by inflation or simply increase mainteinance costs by 5 gold (more or less) for every tile you use outside the fat cross.

I really hope its bonuses are reviewed otherwise it would be too much unbalancing.

Alot of good ideas on this one... but for me the "Port Royal" gets my vote..

Just think its a bit diff and new, with out being OTT. Like the idea of a "super" port that dominates its ocean.... also just as a minor suggestion, if it were implemented, coudl it give acces to a hero type ship maybe?

I think the general feeling among the team (certainly mine) is that Thousand Slums should be extended to all Civs, regardless of alignment. I mean, we're talking dark fantasy here. Even in Real Life, the "good guys" have some kind of slum: Trailer parks, council housing, tenements, bidonvilles...

Yeah but it need to have additional penalties, I think. For one thing, it steals away some of the Kuriotates uniqueness. And they won't be able to build it. Except maybe if you make it so if they build it they can work a 4th ring? But I don't wanna go into how extreme that would be.

Only balance factor IMO is increase the initial hammer cost possibly. It is a WONDER, it is supposed to be amazingly awesome.

I like letting the Kurio work a 4th tile idea to make it still attractive to them. Otherwise their only real reason is to keep from allowing anyone else to build it. That also sounds like the easiest way to implement anything to make it also attractive to them.


As for "stealing their uniqueness," there are plenty of cases out there already where you are able to work hard to get something that someone else starts with for free, or a slightly more restricted version of something typically limited to one Civ.

All done, Kurio are still unique, they can do this with ALL their cities. But now people who wouldn't normally play them can get a taste of what it is like, and possibly wind up deciding to use them as a result.

All done, Kurio are still unique, they can do this with ALL their cities.Well, ALL their cities are only 3 at Standard size maps. With the penalty that the rest of their "cities" are only settlements, which can't build most buildings or units.

Unique isn't always defined by your advantages. Being thusly limited is just another aspect of being unique.

Haven't done .23, so I am curious, what happens when Kurio capture a city and are at their limit? Auto-raze, or it is forced to be a settlement?

And in that case, what will happen when this is in one of those cities?

Someone proposed making it allow 1 extra true city to Kurio once when discussing this (or another wonder idea like it at least). I don't see it as quite so easily coded as allowing a 4th ring, but it could also be possible I suppose.

Vote for Pan's Meadow! Yes, it's only for one city. The point of the wonder is to encourage players to have tons of forests. It can kind of be game breaking on maps like Sureshots' 21 civ map.

The Math:
36 tiles (with the slums)
grassland-farm-agriculture-sanitation-SotW

--->36*(2+1+1+1)/1 pop
=36*5 pop
=180 pop!

Of which 36 are used to work the terrain
leaving 144 pop to specialists or citizens
->144+(num. engineers)-(num. non-priests nor engineers):hammers:

With Calabim and feasting
>100 xp per turn
If available only mid-late game it will not be so powerfull in any games.

I really like Port Royale, since it is both a great defensive and economic wonder. The ability to avoid blockades and receive large amounts of trade income make it a very unique wonder in the FFH world, as well as an attractive wonder for builders.

Also I think Vamps can only feast once per vamp per turn now. So they wouldn't get 100xp a turn.

you would as the exp gained is the city pop - 2

Will only one wonder be added? Or will it be like the Eyes & Ears Network/Shrine of the Champion double implementation? BTW, are you going to vote Kael?

Vote for Pan's Meadow! Yes, it's only for one city. The point of the wonder is to encourage players to have tons of forests. It can kind of be game breaking on maps like Sureshots' 21 civ map.
There's already enough to encourage players to have forests, what we need is something to encourage them to have hell terrain.

or rather encouraging them to raise the AC if they are AV (life my event/ritual would have done). The military bonuses from hell resources already give you a reason to want hell terrain. Honestly, I don't think you should want ell terrain (in your territory) as much as you want a hight AC (if following AV)

I do think that BtS's forests preserves need to be added back though (only for FoL players), to make FoL more appealing to non-elves. They should help spread forests and make them more likely to upgrade to ancient forests.

City of a Thousand Slums... because the Ashen Veil and Calabim aren't strong enough yet. </sarcasm>

(I would say the same thing about Pan's Meadow and Ljosalfar/FOL, but that wonder isn't running away with the poll.)

Sad thought, but I think most players play evil civs because the mechanics currently are very nice and because they are now overpowered (funny, it used to be the contrary) and voted for a Wonder that will improve the fun and power of evil civs even more...
Yes, if 1000 Slums wins, I hope the alignement restriction is "tweaked" away...

Yeah but it need to have additional penaltiesRestricting to certain civs isn't really a penalty on the wonder, it is a penalty on the neutral/good alignment and a reward for the evil (since they have less competition.)

(I think allowing Kurios to work 4th tile would be too complicated to code. Sprawling code was quite complicated in the first place.)

(I would say the same thing about Pan's Meadow and Ljosalfar/FOL, but that wonder isn't running away with the poll.)

The point of Pan's is to make one super city, completley in tune with nature. I used it to combat the Mines of Gal Dur, RoK's wonder(In my eyes FoL's main rival game wise). Mies of Gal Dur made a super production city, as will Pan's. IMO, I'm trying to make FoL competitive for other civs. FOr other civs, it is mostly more worthwile to cut the ancient forest and build a farm, cottage, mine, etc. With this, you don't have to replace the firest, as your city can support yourself w/o improvements. True, the Ljosalfar will have a great city with it, but it is meant more for others.

I voted for City of 1000 Slums because I liked it better than the others, however, I sure would like to vote for them all. :)

Arcane Academy- reagent generation should be left for a guild to. In general I'm not particularly impressed, and it doesn't seem all that original. (I would probably like this better if I didn't have a habit of cheating to get xp when I need it ;))

City of a Thousand Slums - This shouldn't have alignment restrictions, and it's too good to not have some downsides. It should cause significant unhappiness and unhealthiness so that it won't be overpowered. Giving the Kuriotates a fourth ring could be pretty cool, but if so it should probably have an even larger health/happiness cost.

Conclave of Blades - Enchanted Blade is already too easy to get. I'm not sure allowing your arcane units to use metal weapons promotions is possible. (It could probably add the promotions, but they would be removed when they are upgraded)

Great Brewery - probably too strong for the dwarves, not so much for others. I'm not really a fan, possibly in part because I don't drink. The name needs work. The only deity that would make sense in the quote in Kilmorph (she is the dwarves' goddess, as well as the goddess of the harvest season), but I think they see gems and mithril as better signs. I'm not really a fan of ripping of real life quotes like that, especially ones that are so well known.

Mirror Mirror- Are you sure this doesn't violate the Princess rule? I don't really see a place for it in FfH even if you don't think the princess rule is relevant here.

Pan's Meadow- I would rather have this grant extra healthiness, happiness, and a bard per forest (since thats possible now). Not bad, but not my favorite.

Port Royale - This one is my favorite. Everyone should vote for this one. Immunity to blockades and defense from enemy ships is great. (I'm not sue sure about the free visibility of other ports, even if it is possible.) This also makes me think that each leader should get a "Least Favorite Wonder," which would leaders would hate you for building (although it wouldn't necessarily stop them from building it). This should be both Lanun leaders' least favorite, the Infernal Grimorie's Basium's least favorite, etc.

Sacrifice to Bhall- Peace with barbs should be handled though a repeatable ritual instead of a wonder. In general, this would be better as a repeatable ritual or a spell (perhaps available through the Eternal Flame equipment that the Clan will eventually get as a trophy). I don't like it at all as a one time thing. Planar Gate creatures don't have much to do with Bhall, and they would take away from the Sheaim uniqueness. (of course, if there were a repeatable ritual with this effect, I would rather it be more like my entry into the event contest)

Assuming that guilds will act like corporations and give resources. I am hoping they completely change the mechanic, like was done with religion (well, going from nothing to something isn't a hard thing to wind up doing I guess).

Sacrifice to Bhall- Peace with barbs should be handled though a repeatable ritual instead of a wonder.I think that changing this from wonder to repeatable ritual would be done. Otherwise the 15 turns is rather limiting.

I'm torn between Conclave of Blades, Port Royal, and Pan's Meadow. City of a Thousand Slums would be cool, but, as others have said, the Calabim and the Ashen Veil need to be fixed, not broken even more. Same could be said about the Meadow, I guess, but to a lesser extent. If it let you convert regular workers to elven ones (via a spell like the Shrine of Sirona), even if you had to drop the hammer bonus, I'd be for it, if only to make Leaves more accessible to non-Ljosalfar.

Seriously, though, the Order needs a wonder. Giving Social Order the garrison bonus makes things a bit better, but it needs more. Maybe something like the Slums but with a good-friendly name (Council of Law, or something like that). That way it could be in the game without being abused by the Calabim or the Veil.

I think that if the slums idea was implemented then the outer ring would need to not produce any food so that it would not be broken for calabim and instead be a good option for any civ.

I would really like to mix these two up increasing the usefulness of the arcane troops.

Requires: Arcane lore, Warfare, lvl 6 arcane unit
800 Hammers
+10% production speed with each mana sphere the builder has access to
(+2 Culture)
doubles the rate arcane units gain xp inside the city, (very valuable for getting high-level archmages)
+3 Unhealthy because of the dangerous residue of magical experiments left around, (you know, the mages aren't very good in cleaning up their mess...)
+2 Unhappy (boot camp for crazy magicains??)
Military production times doubled. Would that be -50%?
New adepts built in this city receive Enchanted Blade, Magic Resistance and become eligible for weapon upgrades.
New melee units built in this city receive Enchanted Blade.

Thet would be a wonder to make the arcane units usable. Today they are still the weakest units in any stack and as time continues a arcane unit is supposed to get mighty but even a High Mage cant survive outside the camp of a hero and 4-5 scouts for 5 rnds.

I really like this idea...fantastic for roleplaying but perhaps not as uber as the other choices.

All of the above?? :p

I'm the only person to vote for Sacrifice to Bhall?!?!?!? EDIT: Saw ritual idea.

I think the City of a Thousand Slums would be good except the Kuriotates can't use it which means I don't think it should be in.

I'm the only person to vote for Sacrifice to Bhall?!?!?!? EDIT: Saw ritual idea.

I think the City of a Thousand Slums would be good except the Kuriotates can't use it which means I don't think it should be in.

Following this logic your choice is even less good cause it cant be used by 1/3 civilisations in the game :P
Edit: You edited while I was posting. A ritual would fit the sacrifice nicely. Add to it: 'If in those turns there is Armageddon you win' for an evil victory condition.

I picked slums cause it is not, like some say, overpowered but it gives a possibility to be powerful in the right hand. It is also very flavourful.
Pan's Medow is only FoL witch disqualifies it completely.
Arcane Academy and Port Royale are interesting but Slums are more for me. I vote to make Arcane Academy a national wonder it it loses the reagens bonus.

The rest is boring or overcomplicated.

Planar Gate creatures don't have much to do with Bhall, and they would take away from the Sheaim uniqueness. the planar gate units appearing here would be barbs !!! totally different from sheaim... you would create barbs powerful demons inside your borders and you are only at peace with them for 15 turns..

what is the princess rule ??

I liked the slums 'coz of the total dark fantasy aspect it gives...

and don't forget that it would be a mid-late game wonder...
so if you build it in a powerful city (huge wonder cost) it will be a city surrounded by other of your cities...
thus it won't be overpowered. kuriorates are planning for the third ring from the early game. you won't. thus you may gain some useful tiles, but maybe not so much as we may think. you can take the tiles from the neighborhood, but those cities would have 1 less productive tile. and you will have more unhealthiness

conclusions :
+ : 3rd ring
- : unhealth
- : late wonder
- : neighborhood is not composed of free tiles (unless you are kuriorates)
- : high hammer cost
- : limited health ressources ...really damaging
- : limited happiness available (you can compose with it with the right civics or Law3)
- : increased maintenance (can be tweaked away if palace is here)

I think it is a good bargain. and on a big city (unless bannor/order) +25% maintenance can still be powerful. maybe add a -5 gold to the wonder.

what is the princess rule ??

One of Kael's FfH Design rules:

The princess rule: nothing that would appear on the walls on a 6 year old girl can be in FfH.

I am not sure I understand it..
as I read it : nothing that is too "happy, rosy and lovable" can be in FfH.. but mirror mirror is mostly a very dark magical artifact..

or maybe I don't understand "to appear on the walls on..."

I like letting the Kurio work a 4th tile idea to make it still attractive to them. Otherwise their only real reason is to keep from allowing anyone else to build it. That also sounds like the easiest way to implement anything to make it also attractive to them.


Have you ever counted how much that would be?

60 tiles
*max 5 food/tile
=300 food
>150 pop with STW even as the health drops very low


And other topics: more than one will clearly be added, it seems like 3 of this poll based on current voting situation, and similarly from the units poll.
Event poll seems to have 2 winning ones

I think the general feeling among the team (certainly mine) is that Thousand Slums should be extended to all Civs, regardless of alignment. I mean, we're talking dark fantasy here. Even in Real Life, the "good guys" have some kind of slum: Trailer parks, council housing, tenements, bidonvilles...

well, I voted based on the description of the wonder, which says "evil only". Now we could say that also that FoL wonder could be allowed to any religion, and so on. We either vote on what is written or we don't... it's not correct to vote based on what the wonder COULD be modified into. In the end I think that this contest should have been handled in the opposite way: we the players should have chosen the finalists and the staff the winner. The reason seems evident when you see how this wonder which is clearly unbalanced is winning easily: IMO people have voted on what they would like more based on their play style rather than on the most balanced and useful for the mod.

The reason seems evident when you see how this wonder which is clearly unbalanced is winning easily: IMO people have voted on what they would like more based on their play style rather than on the most balanced and useful for the mod.

ya thats how it seems for sure. the worst part of it is people will be able to try out all the sick calabim sprawling type strategies they want with unrestricted leaders anyways.

IMO people have voted on what they would like more based on their play style rather than on the most balanced and useful for the mod.

I agree that as written it's imbalanced, and therefore I didn't vote for it, but it probably could be balanced. It doesn't state the tech requirement or cost, which alone could probably balance it. You could obviously add some nasty modifiers, like +10 :yuck:. There's probably plenty of other, more creative, ways to balance it.

Yeah, I didn't put in a tech req or cost, it should definatley have a very high cost in :hammers:, should also be quite a late tec to balance it. I disagree with whoever said you should vote based on what I said. Many of these wonders are unbalanced, you should vote for whichever one you voted for based on the effects of the wonder once it is balanced.

Haven't tried unrestricted Leaders before, but couldn't anyone just load up the Kurio leader in the Calabim Civ and still have sprawling cities and vampires?

IMO: Mudflation > Balance. Restricting everything to the point of near useless is not as fun as making powerful things to counter other, equally powerful things.

I'm sure that would work, if sprawling is implemented the same way in Shadow as it was pre-BtS (it isn't in .24 or .25, so I haven't gotten to test this yet.)

Haven't tried unrestricted Leaders before, but couldn't anyone just load up the Kurio leader in the Calabim Civ and still have sprawling cities and vampires?

IMO: Mudflation > Balance. Restricting everything to the point of near useless is not as fun as making powerful things to counter other, equally powerful things.


Well unrestricted leaders is a varient that's simply going to be unbalanced no matter what, particularly in FfH with the highly unique nature of the civs. That's no reason to allow the main game to be unbalanced.

It would work if you played Cardith as leaderof thecalabim i think.

I voted Mirrors Mirror, as long as the +1 unhappy is applied to any city in the world except where it's built. My comments on other Wonders:

Arcane Academy : a bit too much of everything...
City of a Thousand Slums: this is a nice idea, but I don't like the restriction to evil civs, by the description it should be at least allowed to neutral civs at least. The main concern though, as has been pointed, is the added power it can have with STW or some other things... would be probably a bit too much. I don't see a need to help evil civs right now.
Conclave of Blades: I actually like this idea, its only flaw was to be second in my list :/
Great Brewery: Not a bad idea but not as interesting as other proposals.
Pan's Meadow: Definitely don't like it because it is limited to FoL and because forest tiles with FoL don't really need another bonus !
Port Royale: A good idea but like the Brewery not as attractive !
Sacrifice to Bhall: Again something prevented to Good civs... not only there has been no idea to help Good guys vs AC and Evil guys, it seems Evil should be helped even more ! Aside from this, isn't Bhall dead ?

Reasons I would vote none of the above. Sorry.

On second thought, 1000 slums would be ok if all civs had access...

Vote for your favorite entry. Voting remains open until December 9th.

Arcane Academy
by zxcvbnmRequires: Arcane lore, lvl 6 arcane unit
800 Hammers
+10% production speed with each mana sphere the builder has access to
+3 great sage, unlimited sage or 3[?] sage
(+1 free reagents, the training of the Academy allows the mages to create their own reagents)
(+2 Culture)
doubles the rate arcane units gain xp inside the city, (very valuable for getting high-level archmages)
+3 Unhealthy because of the dangerous residue of magical experiments left around, (you know, the mages aren't very good in cleaning up their mess...)
An interesting wonder, but the free resource should be handled by Guild rather than by wonder - especially in the term of something as fundamental as Reagents. The other parts (extra XP, free sages for extra unhealthiness) are quite balanced. Doesnt seem like something the AI cannot handle.


City of a Thousand Slums
by Kol.7-20% Culture
+20% maintainance

Evil civs only

Allows the city it is built in to access the third ring of tiles around it (ala Sprawling trait)

Allows a civ to create a very large and powerful town. Would work well any civ with god-king if the slums were built in the capital, especially the calabim who I kind of had in mind when I was thinking about this.
As mentioned a lot already, the alignment is just breaking the game for something that needs to be fixed. Getting one super-city for non-Kuriotates, or an Uber-City for them, is surely interesting both in terms of gameplay and lore, and with a Good-only, malus on production and science, it would make an interesting challenge for a Super-GP city. Anyways, as is, just plain broken - even though seducing indeed...

Conclave of Blades
by TravellingHatA college for training wizards in the arts of warfare against enemies both magical and mundane, though such lessons take time (hence the whacking production penalty!).

Tech Required: Warfare
Other requirements: Mage Guild, Training Yard
Double Production: Enchantment Mana
Cost: 800
GPP: Great Commander +2
Specialists: Can run one sage

Edit: Military production times doubled. Would that be -50%?
New adepts built in this city receive Enchanted Blade, Magic Resistance and become eligible for weapon upgrades.
New melee units built in this city receive Enchanted Blade.
While I really like the idea, it's very unbalancing the game - all adepts (or is that arcane units ?) get lots of bonus, while as is, it only encourages to not build any melee units. Seeing how the AI (cannot) handle its Arcane units, it seems like it cannot handle this.

The Holy Ale Great Brewery
by Pandemonis"Beer is living proof that [insert god's name here] loves us and wants us to be happy." Dwarf saying (Actually a genuine quote from Benjamin Franklin)

Requirement:
Crafting, city must have a brewery.
Cost: 700
+2 Culture, +4 Gold
+2 GPP (Merchant)
Provide a Brewery in each city of the civilization, regardless of access to river.
Not the sexiest idea on Erebus, but simple, early, balanced, tho powerful wonder, and it sounds like the AI can easily understand it. Plus, it's got a Monty Python reference, too.
(I hear it would unbalance Dwarves, I might not completely disagree, but RoK is not breaking Dwarves like FoL is breaking Ljosalfar, so I'd say that there is room for that kind of bonus).

Mirror Mirror
by formless blobThis scrying mirror allows the owner to search his empire for the fairest maidens. The magic of the mirror is such, that any maidens found are spellbound to head to their new master. These maiden can then be sold to the local nobility for great profit.

Cost: 800
Prerequisite: Omniscience
Effect: +3 Happy in this city, +1 Unhappy in all other cities you own. The revenue created is equal to +1 per city you own.

Balance suggestion: To make it more powerfull, the bad effect could include, or only apply to, enemy cities.

Despite the Princess rule, an interesting tweak. Still, too late to be of any interest. If very early on the tech tree, (and much cheaper), it would be tremendous tho: consistent and early boost of happiness for one of your city, with the assurance that it is going to be more of a problem as you develop...
As is, too late to be relevant; but thumbs up tho.

Pan's Meadow
by Rex rgis of TerCost 250
+5 Culture
+2 GPP (Great Artist)

Requires Way of the Forest, Fellowship of Leaves State Religion

The Meadow brings great Joy to the Lands surrrounding the Meadow. Every Forest, Ancient Forest, etc., gains +1 Hammer.

I really like the lore idea, but the gameplay proposition is just indecent. FoL do not need any bonus already, even if it is meant for only one of their city. The cost/benefit is ridiculously advantageous, and the +1 hammer is just too powerful (FoL+Elves+Ancient Forest+Pan's Meadow=crazy).

Port Royal
by Frozen Vomit(can have any name actually - if there is a legendary harbor like this in ffh lore.)

Requires: Blasting Powder
?
+2 Culture
+2 foreign trade routes
+100% trade income in this city
+2 GPP (merchant)

+2 relations with civs who have foreign trade
-2 with civs that have mercantilism

City can not be blockaded, enemy and hidden nationality ships take damage when they are in the cities fat cross.

(Gives line of sight to every city with a harbor when the civ uses foreign trade. Not sure about that one...)

"Look at it - a marvel of civilization. Ships are coming in and bring goods and rumors from all seven (?) oceans. On a busy day like this you could surely think that this is the center of Erebus." - Geert ?, Harbormaster

"High and insurmountable are it's walls and far roar it's cannonballs. Many a proud ship was lost in the calm water of this bay - fortresses like this clearly mean the end of piracy" - ?, Lanun Captain
Great idea, especially for the Lore and my personal like of the Lanuns. However, +2 trade routes + +100% trade makes it already huge (ie. = two wonders combined). Add blockade and you end up with an uber wonder. It's also a pretty late one, and Id like to see more earlier on. While the diplomacy modifiers makes it tasty, Id really prefer its power singled out to blockade and accessible way earlier.

Sacrifice to Bhall
by CXDamian900 Hammers
Requires: Summoning
Requires: Neutral or Evil Alignment
Grants peace to barbarians for 15 turns(if not already at peace, if so ignored)
Spawns 1 random Planar Gate unit(barbarian) in each of the players cities, with mobility 1
I like the idea of a peace-with-barbarian ritual, and the combination with random spawns. I think the major support for such a ritual is the reason this entry is not getting much votes.

Regarding the post saying that we should vote on the general idea rather than the exact implementation, Id just like to say that I voted on the exact game mechanics proposed, as I find most of them unbalanced :)

I disagree with whoever said you should vote based on what I said. Many of these wonders are unbalanced, you should vote for whichever one you voted for based on the effects of the wonder once it is balanced.

Could you now also enlighten us on how can we vote on wonders once they are balanced if we don't know HOW are they balanced ?? To this extent, let's propose Wonders names, the most interesting will win. We will take care later of the effects and balance............... :rolleyes:

I find it interesting that people are saying that restricting the City of a Thousand Slums to Evil civilizations would make the Evil ones unbalanced. So far, I had thought that restricting the Altar Victory to Good and Neutral civs gave the Evil ones a serious handicap and the City would go towards fixing that - but then again, I'm a builder.

Even if there wasn't an imbalance, I like the thought of there being more things differentiating between the alignments. Being Good or Evil should have more effects than just a diplomacy modifier and access to a couple of civics.

you shouldn't balance having a 1 more victory option with making achieving ALL the other 5 easier. That's rather an imbalance.

you shouldn't balance having a 1 more victory option with making achieving ALL the other 5 easier. That's rather an imbalance.

Depends on how much easier...

I never allow an Altar victory, but still think that evil civs are at a disadvantage for not having the altar. Its bonus isn't winning the game, it's making priests extremely productive.

I never allow an Altar victory, but still think that evil civs are at a disadvantage for not having the altar. Its bonus isn't winning the game, it's making priests extremely productive.

How about the +1 STR to disciples and +happy and +10 xp to disciples that can upgrade to Recon?

Yeah, that too (but the +1 holy strength isn't just for disciples, every unit gets it, and can regain it by waiting a turn in the city)

are you comparing the +1 hammer per priest specialist bonus offered by spending 3 (or more ?) Great Priests with 16 more workable tiles ??? Besides, placing those 3 GP as great specialists would equal to placing 6 priest specialists with that Altar at the proper level, plus an additional +9 raw gold. If you're Good you're most likely to be able to cast Bless anyways. The main bonus is really the one of the victory condition...

One city challenge spoilers, aren't they

are you comparing the +1 hammer per priest specialist bonus offered by spending 3 (or more ?) Great Priests with 16 more workable tiles ??? Besides, placing those 3 GP as great specialists would equal to placing 6 priest specialists with that Altar at the proper level, plus an additional +9 raw gold. If you're Good you're most likely to be able to cast Bless anyways. The main bonus is really the one of the victory condition...

For me the biggest bonus was the experience and +1 str on my Monks. Sure I won with the altar that game, but man was that boring.

Hello guys, as a first post i vote for Port Royal, i like the defense perspective of the city it is built in. A canal could be well defended by a city with this upgrade.

I take the opportunity to thx all the FFH team for putting up this great mod, there is such depth and replayability its awesome and now i see that you guys listen to fans with the pooling system. Good job!:)

Comments on the ones I thought were the most unique:

Arcane Academy. Very well thought out requirements and effect. The +3 unhealthy penalty seems a bit arbitrary though. I would have done -3 money or hammers instead, with the idea that research is supplanting the trade and production in the city.

City of 1000 Slums. Too powerful without enough of a penalty. Needs a MASSIVE unhappy/unhealty effect (like, -1000) because, you know, its a slum!

Port Royal. Also very well thought out. However, I would prefer this be implemented as a regular building, not a wonder. Is there anything like the "city cannot be blockaded, enemy/HN ships take damage" idea currently in the game? It is so good that it should be available to every coastal city, if perhaps at a high price.

City of a Thousand Slums

If this could be imagined as people living outside the walls, I would think this Wonder could cause a penalty to city defense. Or, maybe rather than a % penalty, maybe it should simply remove the defense created from influence.

Arcane Academy. Very well thought out requirements and effect. The +3 unhealthy penalty seems a bit arbitrary though. I would have done -3 money or hammers instead, with the idea that research is supplanting the trade and production in the city.


I thought of hammer/gold reduction too but wanted to have the unhealthiness instead for various reasons even though some penalty to the others might have had some interesting flavour/balancing as well.

I think Port Royal should definately be a wonder, not a normal building. It would be way to powerful to have in every city.

However, its anti-blockade effect (but not the damage to enemy/HN ships within its city radius effect) would also be good for the building that is made available to those paying to support the Undercouncil's Smugging Ring resolution.

Of all the contests this one was the toughest for me to decide. Some of my top choices need some tweaking I think. And since I don't know if or how these wonders will be tweaked I don't know if I should vote for them. I started out just commenting on a couple wonders I think may need tweaking, but then decided to use this opportunity to help me work out my final decision...

Arcane Academy almost got my vote just for its access to Reagents. Even if Guilds do allow Reagents I think the game needs another option for it (unless Guilds work like FfH religions and grant an executive even if the headquarters have already been established). But I like this wonder for more than just the Reagents. The extra experiance for fortified units would be a great addition. I've always thought there should be a city specialist which trained units. One each for arcane, disciple, melee, recon, and mounted. There is a mod which makes this possible. Your wonder idea would make this happen at least for arcane units. I like it. And Requiring a level 6 arcane unit will make this an interesting wonder to race for. Lots of options, strategies and decision making for meeting the pre-reqs for this wonder before your opponents do. I like this wonder for its own merits, but like others have posted, I would think a hybrid of this wonder and the Conclave of Blades would be great fun. But its still great as is. I hope it makes in despite what I end up voting for.

City of a Thousand Slums sounds great, but if I were to limit it to any alignment, it would be to forbid evil civs from building it. But I don't think it should have any alignment restrictions. Alignment can be changed. So why limit the building of this wonder by alignment? And causing an evil civ which changes alignment to lose the effect of the wonder would just seem odd. I think this wonder would be the most powerful of all the wonders currently in the game. I don't think it should be limited to evil civs only. I won't vote for it because of the alignment restriction. I'd love to have this wonder if not for that. It sounds cool and would be quite fun to play.

Conclave of Bladesa school for the training of Battle Mages sounds very cool to me. The Magic Resistance may be a bit of a pain though. It would suck if they resist the Haste spell etc. Perhaps a decreased damage from magic instead? But then if this school is all about increasing hand to hand combat then perhaps it should have no effects beyond melee combat. Or if its a mixture of melee training and battle magic then perhaps it should grant Combat 1 instead of Enchanted Blade. Combat 1 is useful for melee and summons. But perhaps these other options are for other wonders or buildings. As it is I like your proposal very much. I hope it makes it into the game.

The Holy Ale Great Brewery at first sounded to me to be a bit overpowered. Now I'm not so sure. I suppose I'd have less reservations if Breweries were not limited to riverside cities. I never liked that Brewery restriction. Access to fresh water is all that should be required. Aqueducts exist to bring fresh water to a city. I think Aqueducts should be the prerequisite for cities not riverside. And I wonder if the standard breweries should be capped at one happy instead of giving one happy for each of the requisite resources. But even if the Breweries were tweaked I can't stop wondering if a free Brewery in every city might be a bit much. Imagine a warmongers newly conquered cities just coming out of revolt and instantly gaining up to +3 happiness. I like the idea of this wonder, I just can't decide if its overpowered.

Mirror Mirror I find to be interesting but I don't feel it fits the game real well. I can't imagine many of the civs doing this. Though for some I can. But I like that dynamic of one unhappy per city resulting in a +1 (x each city) commerce bonus in the building city. With a different story I think this could be an interesting wonder for the game.

Pan's Meadow is great for flavor and fun. I mighta voted for it if I knew if its effects were city or empire wide. If it only affects the city in which it was built then I think its great. But if it affects every city in the empire then I think it is too powerful. I think FOL needs a religion specific wonder. If this one doesn't win I'd hope it makes it in anyway (but only if its effects are just citywide).

Port Royal interests me alot. I think it may be a tad bit overpowered though.. but maybe not. +2 trade routes and +100% trade route yield is alot. Especially combined with the Great Lighthouse etc. But it is a late wonder so its effects towards increased research won't make such a huge difference by that time (and beelining to it is enough of a sacrifice that I think it might balance out fine). I very much like this wonders zone of control. This is what makes this wonder for me. I hope it can be implemented for without this the wonder is too much like the Great Lighthouse and I wouldn't see the need for it. But I do like there being something more to this than just the ZOC. Although I like the idea of preventing blockade; I think it should be limited to the cities cultural influence. So rather than limit any chance of blockade, it would instead just protect the cultural borders from blockade. This would still be useful because an enemy would have to use more ships in order to effect a blockade. So instead of using 1 or 2 ships to blockade the port, they will have to patrol further out and would perhaps require 3 or 4 ships. I think this wonder has more than enough going for it that it shouldn't grant line of sight for other cities Harbors. I like this wonder alot and might vote for it. I very much want to see this in the game, but since I can only vote for one I may end up voting for another. Don't know yet.

Sacrifice to Bhall would be great for an Armageddon strategy. I think the game very much needs something to help balance the AC in favor of those who seek to increase it. For this wonder I think an alignment restriction is justified. I wouldn't mind seeing it be a repeatable ritual, but still think it works quite well enough to be a one off wonder. Especially if it had another bonus associated with it. The spawning of the barbs make a nice counter for the peace. I think this would be an interesting addition to the game. I may not vote for this one, but I'd like to see it in the game.

After all that I sill can't decide but I have narrowed it down between Arcane Academy and Port Royale... I think. And if City of a Thousand Slums didn't have an alignment restriction, and if I knew if Pan's Meadow was city or empire wide, then they would be on this final list as well. Tough choice. Those that didn't make my final cut I would still like to see them in the game.

I think Port Royal should definately be a wonder, not a normal building. It would be way to powerful to have in every city.Another option would be to make it work like Temples and Cathedrals. For every three Harbors a civ can build one Port Royal. Though I like it as a wonder better than a building and agree that as is it would be too overpowered even if it was limited such as Cathedrals. But I think an Armored Port which only grants the ZOC, and perhaps a limited anti-blockade ability would be very cool.

I still think it should be left as a wonder, with an Esus (or Undercouncil)-only building emulating its anti-blockade abilities (but explained by blockade running, not naval superiority in a well fortified harbor)

Another option would be to make it work like Temples and Cathedrals. For every three Harbors a civ can build one Port Royal. Though I like it as a wonder better than a building and agree that as is it would be too overpowered even if it was limited such as Cathedrals. But I think an Armored Port which only grants the ZOC, and perhaps a limited anti-blockade ability would be very cool.

Port Royal should be a wonder but maybe create a city improvement without the anti-blockade feature thats named Coastal Defense (can attack enemy and HN ship but WAY less powerfull than Port Royal), it could be a prerequiste to Port Royal as well. Coastal Defense could have Wall as prerequiste, a bit like Colonization... I like that idea.

Alright I'm decided and have voted for the Arcane Academy. Learning that Guilds would not provide Reagents was the final push perhaps. I've also been thinking of how slow an effort it is to gain back some high level casters once the Avatar has spawned. I often like playing to bring the Avatar into the world since he can wield such an awesome army. And in non-Avatar games it becomes a drag to carefully level up spellcasters on weakened foes. I like the idea of having a wonder which makes this less necessary.

City of a Thousand Slums is strong (probably TOO strong to be implemented) and is limited to evil civs only.... Are evil civs so weak now they need such help? Or there will be a balanced offered for good and one more for neutral?

What about evil civs with sprawling already?

Seems like very unbalanced idea :(

What about evil civs with sprawling already?

Well, there are none unless the Kuriotates turn evil, and blocking this wonder from them seems a natural solution in any case...

They seem to have issues with many of these wonders. Pan's meadow gives the mmore boost than others but is not unbalancing, Mirror mirror gives either 2 or unlimited gold, Slums would make one über-city as it seems to be buildable only by city hubs if it is buildable to them, and great brewery is a bit of waste for them.

Well seems like Port Royal only takes 3rd place - but thanks for the support folks.

Its not over yet. The poll doesn't close for another 52 hours. Good luck!

Well, it leads the next one with more than the Academy leads it so it might well get to the game. My guess is that the Slums, Academy and Port are the ones to be chosen.

I hope the top 3 do make it. I don't care if the the top 2 are implemented or not, but I really want number 3. It seems less likely that number 3 would make if the first 2 don't though.

I hate democracy.

What's wrong with democracy?

It is against the laws of physics. [read 'Perfect Imperfection" by J. Dukaj] ;)

It's making the stupid wonder win.

It's making the stupid wonder win.
I completely agree with you.

All the wonders that get in are going to be balanced so they don't give unfair advantages to particular civs. For example, if it is my wonder that you are reffering to, the team has already said that, should it be added in, the evil alignment restriction will be removed, a well as this it is v. likely to be ridiculously expensive or come very late in the game. Also, yes, how I suggested it would be ridiculously powerful for an AV kuriotate player but there are other wonders that, if used in particular ways, can achieve a similarly powerful effect, for example, it is possible to build the Tower of Complacency in your capital city, then leave disband most of your units, summon hyborem, and move right in, using certain civics, in the city with the tower you can get huge populations, giving you huge production/money/science. Yes, there are a lot of things need to happen before you can do this, but it's still possible.

I voted for stupid :P

Secondary votes to Port Royale and Pan's meadow. Arcane Academy has too many effects and comes too late in the game. Whos going to need Reagents after they have a lvl. 6 arcane unit?

I voted for stupid :P

Secondary votes to Port Royale and Pan's meadow. Arcane Academy has too many effects and comes too late in the game. Whos going to need Reagents after they have a lvl. 6 arcane unit?

Actually it's before you have a level 6 arcane unit that you have no need for Reagents. They're only required to build Archmages and Summoners.

...there are other wonders that, if used in particular ways, can achieve a similarly powerful effect, for example, it is possible to build the Tower of Complacency in your capital city, then leave disband most of your units, summon hyborem, and move right in, using certain civics, in the city with the tower you can get huge populations, giving you huge production/money/science.Which would be made vastly more powerful by building the slums there. When I first read your entry it was a city with Tower of Complacency (or Unyielding Order) under the Sacrifice the Weak civic which first made me think of how overpowered this wonder could be. And being limited to evil civs only, I figured you may have had exactly this is mind when designing this wonder.


... For example, if it is my wonder that you are reffering to, the team has already said that, should it be added in, the evil alignment restriction will be removed,...Are you sure about that? I haven't seen that post and I wonder why it wasn't posted in the first post of the poll that this wonder would be open to all alignments. That makes a huge difference in the design of the wonder. Which of course makes a big difference on how we vote.

Then seZereth had the following to say in the "Shadow" Schedule (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6237276&postcount=409) thread.... "you vote on which of them gets implemented for sure and exactly like it is". To me that kindof sounds like the contest ideas will not be modified (unless of course it is unimplementable otherwise).

Actually it's before you have a level 6 arcane unit that you have no need for Reagents. They're only required to build Archmages and Summoners.

Umm... Ritualists?

Ok, first, read the thread.

I think the general feeling among the team (certainly mine) is that Thousand Slums should be extended to all Civs, regardless of alignment. I mean, we're talking dark fantasy here. Even in Real Life, the "good guys" have some kind of slum: Trailer parks, council housing, tenements, bidonvilles...

I've admitted that the slums would be overpowered and that I didn't give it enough downsides, should it be put into FFh I'm sure the team would tweak it to be less so. Just in this thread there are about a hundred ideas for doing so.

Also, people who are claiming I designed this because I enjoy having ridiculous advantages over the AI playing 'broken' evil civs, wtf! No... I thought up the wonder whilst readin about the Calabim in the pedia and that's where the flavour for it comes from, I did not intend to make evil civs ridiculously powerful and hadn't considerred the effects of Tower of complacency/unyileding order, I said evil civs only because I thought it fitted in more with evil civs then good ones.

I don't actually agree that evil civs are overpowered and 'broken' anyway. Evil civs are often actually disadvantaged, they get negative diplomacy from both good and neutral civs, whereas afaik neutral and good civs have no negative modifyer with each other. Evil civs also have a lower positive diplomacy bonus with other evil civs, then the diplo bonus between good civs. I think evil civs should be a little stronger and more powerful. Good civs work togeather, evil civs stand alone.

Also, people who think I'm just beefing up my favourite civs, my Favourite civ atm is the Lurchip, not the calbim or the sheaim, the Lurchip.

Umm... Ritualists?

good point, I haven't played AV in a while.

It's making the stupid wonder win.

either way its still a dictatorship... the "team" picks the real winners ;)

The Grigori Inquisitor UU requires Reagents too (although I'm not sure why)

Making the Luonnatar have the same tech and resource requirements as Archmages never made sense to me. I don't think they should have any resource requirements and should be moved to another tech. If Liberalism was still in FfH I would say to use that, but there isn't really a good tech for the Luonnotar anymore. Philosophy, Righteousness, Fanaticism, or Honor could work, but they are all in the religious tech line line which the Agnostic Grigori would do better to avoid. If it weren't so early I would say to use Philosophy.

(Hmm, how about bringing Liberalism back and making it the prerequisite for the Liberty civic? It makes a lot more sense than requiring Mercantilism. It would also be a better prerequisite for the Grigori Tavern, or perhaps some new Grigori building. Liberty also makes more sense for Cassiels Favorite civic. If this were changed, however, I would say you should get rid of the free bard specialists and make it boost the GPP rate and maybe also research rate and culture. Guilds already allows unlimited bards anyway.)

Making the Luonnatar have the same tech and resource requirements never made sense to meLuonnatar used to require strength of will.... was that changed?

I could have sworn I wrote "as Archmages," but I guess that got left off. (I just fixed it.) Yes they require Strength of Will. I guess the name of this tech does fit the Grigori's Humanism theme, but not specifically the Luonnatar. I don't see why the Luonnatar require research down the Arcane path.

Ah. Well, maybe I skimmed it, I thought you mean "as the other civs" which, of course, would be much worse.

Congradulations to Kol.7 for his winning entry "City of a Thousand Slums"!

Nooo!! I voted for this, but now I've changed my mind!!! Waaaaaahhhhh:cry: :cry:

Congratulations.

It wont be so overpowered as you all[almost] think. Having THE tower in THE city with AV will be very hard to acheve and that is worth a price. If only the AI in shadow will remember to build wonders [a thing that I saw it has problems now] then it will be a very difficult task. Also like someone pointed out, the third ring would have to be taken from another city. I do not expect anyone to plan his cities so he has such space available.

Wooooo! Thanks everyone for voting. I'm sure the team will balance it a bit...

A question about the other entrys: if they get to the game, will their authors have a chance to write the pedia entrys or is it just for the winner?

I have no problem with the person who origionated the idea writing the pedia entry as long as it seems fitting.

So who should start writing?;)

No, no sneakpeek attempts at all...

Oh.. Am I supposed to write the pedia entry?

Oh.. Am I supposed to right the pedia entry?

Its up to you, you are welcome to if you'd like. For people who like to write its cool to see your entry in the mod with your idea, but if you arent a writer sort of person its not a big deal.

But how can we know, besides the winners, which entrys will make it to the game? So we won't be writing in vain

Also, people who are claiming I designed this because I enjoy having ridiculous advantages over the AI playing 'broken' evil civs, wtf! No... I thought up the wonder whilst readin about the Calabim in the pedia and that's where the flavour for it comes from, I did not intend to make evil civs ridiculously powerful and hadn't considerred the effects of Tower of complacency/unyileding order, I said evil civs only because I thought it fitted in more with evil civs then good ones.

I don't actually agree that evil civs are overpowered and 'broken' anyway. ...I didn't intend for what I said to be taken that way. I didn't think you "enjoy having ridiculous advantages over the AI". I just meant that since the wonder was limited to evil civs, I thought you had the power of the Sacrifice the Weak civic in mind when designing it. Which I don't and didn't judge at all. On the contrary this is one of the first combinations which I will seek to play. I enjoy having a massive city center, and your wonder takes that to a whole new level. The only reason I didn't vote for it was because of the alignment restriction. I think an FOL civ running the Guardian of Nature civic with nothing but Ancient Forests in their expanded fat cross, will also be a very powerful combination. I don't mind the power of your wonder because the fun of it is so great. I think it might be a tad overpowered but I wouldn't call it unbalanced unless it was alignment restricted. I think its a great idea and I will enjoy having it in the game (I just hope it doesn't come too late). Thank you for your great design.

Like you, I also don't think evil civs are overpowered. But I do think the Sacrifice the Weak civic which only AV players can use, may be a bit overpowered. But all things considered I don't really know that it is actually unbalanced. But your wonder with this civic and no unhappiness limits, is extremely powerful I think. So I think it should be allowed for all. This will give the evil civs some competition for it. Which I think will add a little extra balance. Besides, its such a cool wonder with so much potential, that I'd like to build it in every game I play. ;)

_Valis;6239904']It wont be so overpowered as you all[almost] think. Having THE tower in THE city with AV will be very hard to acheve and that is worth a price. If only the AI in shadow will remember to build wonders [a thing that I saw it has problems now] then it will be a very difficult task. Also like someone pointed out, the third ring would have to be taken from another city. I do not expect anyone to plan his cities so he has such space available.It wouldn't be very hard to get the Tower of Complacency in the same city as the Slums. Another way to ignore the happy cap is to use a Law III Arcane unit to cast Unyielding Order in the city. And having the AV in the city is as simple as building an Acolyte. But you can still run the Sacrifice the Weak civic if your AV so it doesnt matter if the city itself is AV. If it happens to be the AV Holy City then it will be much easier to build the Meshamber of Dis though.

I don't really buy the argument for overlapping tiles. Having (or relocating) the palace in the slum city and running the God King civic makes it not much sacrifice to deny the border cities a few tiles each. Already under normal situations I will often have cities which lose tiles to another more powerful city. And its pretty easy to plan ahead for building the slums in a new city or a recently conquered one. This is made easier if only evil civs can build the wonder... because theres less competition. But its as easy as pie to build it in a new city specifically selected for use of the thrid ring when you plan ahead to spawn a Great Engineer or get to Engineering first. I've done this for wonders like the Mercurian Gate so I can build the wonder in a newly settled city right where I want it.

All that said... I like the wonder and think it will be alot of fun. Especially for FOL and Veil civs. But if the team doesn't make it available to all alignments, then I will. If available to all then I don't have any balance concerns since all civs would have the opportunity to build it themselves. I do think its a very powerful wonder, but I also think that its fun for that. And I can't wait to build this thing in an OCC. Also for an Elven supercity, a Metropolis of Dis, a Municipality of Malakim etc etc

The Slums definately need to cause unhappiness and even more unhealthiness. It is the health penalty that stops it from being overpowered.

The Sacrifice the Weak and Guardian of Nature civics greatly reduce the effects of the health penalties. So that method of balancing kind of makes it more unbalanced since there are two religion specific civics which greatly reduce the penalties.

Ok sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. ;) I aggree that if the slums are given huge penalties in health and happiness it will actually make it more unbalanced. Like White Elk said, FOL and AV civs would have no real problem by this compared to other religions. Maybe the slus should increase maintainence costs or something?

@Kael- I think I'd prefer one of you to write it, I'm not the writing sort :p

I liked the maintenance cost penalty. But if you really needed a big penalty to put on it, what about removing the city's access to mana resources due to mages refusing to work in such a disgusting city?

You mean the cumulative bonuses? eg, for every life mana +1 health? Yeah, maybe it could stop you from being able to build a lot of buildings in the town, mage guild, training ground, brewery etc.

I like the increased maintenance as well. I don't have any ideas for balancing besides simply not putting any alignment restrictions on it. And I do think it should have some minor health costs, but not something real big since that would tip the balance in favor of religion specific civics. Beyond that and a hefty hammer cost, does it really need much more?

But what can be done for the poor Kuriotates? I remember reading at how challenging the addition of the sprawling trait was. I can imagine that adding a fourth ring will exponentially increase that difficulty. Perhaps to the point of a fourth ring not being able to be implemented? If so then should they have an alternate use of the wonder?

Hmm, maybe they could draft units or something? Would it be too difficult to code a forth ring for them?

If you denied the city access to mana resources it would be unable to build units/wonders which required mana. So if you were trying to make a super-uber-city by a God-King capital CoaTS (nice acronym!), it would be unable to construct the Towers of Mastery.

It would force specialisation, rather than throwing everything you have in one city in a braindead manner.

Civilizations already have forbidden units and forbidden buildings. Making one wonder forbidden for the Kuriotates is no big deal, and probably the easiest approach.

I don't personally think it needs too much balancing, I like to see how it can balance itself out :) Though I do agree that with something to remove your unhappy faces it does make things less capable of self balance. So if any balance is added, it ought to be a health penalty (maybe doubles the Unhealthy faces per population? That means that once you break your health cap all new people take 4 food instead of 3 (or 3 instead of 2 under Sacrafice the Weak).


As for saying that nobody would plan ahead and it'll take tiles from other people, we must play differently. In Civ IV you are penalized for number of cities, so I make sure to spread them as far as possible. Back in Civ III I would stack cities so that the fat crosses neighbored perfectly and there were maybe 6 unworked tiles per 5 cities in my empire. But in Civ IV, I space out all of my cities at the LEAST such that they would be able to run a 3rd Ring. Especially my capitol when I know that I don't have to worry about cultural push. It is rare to have any city within 10 tiles of my capitol.

I like to see how it can balance itself out

Wanted to propose it myself. Let see how it is doing first and then tweak it.

As for saying that nobody would plan ahead and it'll take tiles from other people, we must play differently. In Civ IV you are penalized for number of cities, so I make sure to spread them as far as possible. Back in Civ III I would stack cities so that the fat crosses neighbored perfectly and there were maybe 6 unworked tiles per 5 cities in my empire. But in Civ IV, I space out all of my cities at the LEAST such that they would be able to run a 3rd Ring. Especially my capitol when I know that I don't have to worry about cultural push. It is rare to have any city within 10 tiles of my capitol.

Yup, we play differently. A small empire is a better-to-defend empire. Also the penalty for the distance from your capitol is important for me. Altho it may be something as a habit from vanilla, dono. Has it really changed that the distance does not matter now?

Personally I feel myself uncomfortable with CoaTS because on the one hand it needs an accurate planning of the resettlement in the early game, on the other hand you can not be sure to be able to catch it. Of cause it makes this wonder more balanced but I do not like trading my comfort for balance... :)

Well, there are none unless the Kuriotates turn evil, and blocking this wonder from them seems a natural solution in any case...

Why oh why would be a solution ? To what problem ? Kurio have this trait but it is balanced by the inability to have more than 3-4 productive cities. Other civs have other advantages and penalties. I see absolutely no reason why the Kurio should not be allowed to benefit of this wonder while other civs are. I mean it's not like they are overpowered, in fact they have been the crappiest civ (AI wise) from an year now. I highly dislike the wonder itself instead. Its main flaw is that it is unoriginal since it gives a unique ability of a civ to any other civ. Other wonders were original and introduced original and strategically interesting concepts. Luckily it's only a wonder and not some complicated mechanism, so it won't be hard to delete it.

It's making the stupid wonder win.

I hate democracy.

Luckily we can take the second in place and mod it in instead of the slums ;)
"To each one his own" (ie: let the villains in the slums have their wonder while we build our shining Academy).

@onedreamer

If you're looking for security for that academy of yours, I've got a bunch of battlemages all dressed up with nowhere to go :)

I'm reminded of the words of an Amercian politico (sorry, don't know who): "The voters have spoken. The b'stards." Just kidding.

Why oh why would be a solution ? To what problem ?

The problem is that settlements can't build wonders, and it's apparently quite hard to make the wonder give a fourth ring, so they either can't build it or they won't get any advantage of it.

(Mind you, I've thought for a long time that the Kuriotate settlements should be made a bit more useful - replacing their "can't build nearly anything" restriction with "can only work the first ring" and removing the massive penalties to gold and science entirely would be my suggestion.)

_Valis;6244073']Yup, we play differently. A small empire is a better-to-defend empire. Also the penalty for the distance from your capitol is important for me. Altho it may be something as a habit from vanilla, dono. Has it really changed that the distance does not matter now?


Distance to Palace is still a bit of a steep issue, but I typically run City States for just that reason. And I find that the sprawling Empire is the easier one to defend, if you sprawl just right. Once you get your borders up to some choke points (which I typically B-line for when I find them, regardless of distance and resources nearby), you can wind up with a HUGE empire that only needs 3 cities defended to keep all borders secure (since Naval attack is generally quite late in the game, when you have had time to build yourself up).

Usually in my games running Godking makes up for the distance maintainance, even though it adds somehing like 10%. If you play the bannor you can use their units to reduce maintainence too.

For the Kuriotates, would it be possible for them to gain an extra sprawling city? Instead of 3-4 they'd get 4-5? Of course the wonder can't be built in a settlement, but if it was built in a real city then perhaps they could turn one settlement into a city?

Should slums be destroyed if you change alignments? If not, I can go evil for 20 turns.

Kael and Kol.7 will work together on the final design. So I'm guessing that there will be no alignment restriction since Kol.7 appears to agree that there shouldn't be one. I'm just guessing though.

I agree that its an easy thing to switch alignments and therefore get around the restriction.
But if the slums were destroyed upon alignment change, that would seem sort of odd to me.