I'm playing out a game of FFH2 to completion for the first time, as Khazad playing Prince with RoK pretty much throughout. It is taking me longer than it probably should due to the learning curve, I'm up near turn 500.

I'm trying to decide how to play the endgame, and would appreciate some input as to how fast the AC counter is likely to go up, and therefore how I need to progress.

I have a big empire, 31 cities, having conquered most of a large continent in an extended war againt two enemy civs. I finished that war not too long ago and am currently building up all those cities. That is going pretty well given that my vault is overflowing (yes, over 16k gold) and I have a lot of special resources, particularly mines (earth nodes really are wonderful). City States plus 3 law nodes and heaps of trade from gold mean my economy is still reasonable - science rate only 40% but the economy is huge so its ok.

I am ahead by about 600 points, however am concerned that my main opposition civs, both Ashen Veil and on another continent, will keep putting up the AC counter and that I will become heavily disadvantaged. Counter is currently at 63

I have two ways to go forward - either build up a fleet and army and go to hit those civs. OR I can take out the rest of my continent, which may give me a victory by domination but I'm not sure. Especially if the AV civs grow some huge cities and put the population win out of reach, but if not I reckon it might get me there, especially if I build a few cities in the cold south just to get the land area.

Any advice? Is the AC counter a real threat? Can I take my time to rebuild those cities and then have massive army production, or do I need to get moving now?

The Armageddon Counter can be the biggest threat in the game at times, and you should be concerned about it.

If it gets much higher you will get to see the unpleasantness that is the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse along with the mighty Avatar of Wrath himself. This coupled with the fact that all of your improvements related to wildlife and food will disappear and your armies will virtually vanish over night are a huge problem. Did I mention that your lands can also turn into hell terrain and any deserts that happen to appear in your lands will become impassable infernos?

It would be cheaper and easier to deal with your neighbors first, but they may be your only allies in the end game if the Ashen Veil is spreading unopposed on another continent.

Generally, I start looking for the "bad guys" when the AC counter hits 10 if I'm playing a good or neutral civilization. If I'm playing an evil Civ, then I don't care, let it rise, but be prepared since the Horsemen, Avatar, and their barb hordes attack everyone indiscriminately. I'd at the very least be really concerned since things start to get very, very ugly when the AC is as high as you have it now.

The short answer though, is yes, you certainly are in a race against time.

i find the AC either rises quickly or becomes a non-issue depending on the type of game.

when its already at 63 you can pretty much expect it to hit 100 in a short time frame, and racing against it is likely to be a lost race.

brace yourself for the AC events, try to diminish the damage you suffer from them, and then get along with your plans to win.

So what do I need to do to prepare? A couple of horseman have already arrived and been dealt with - wish I had some spirit mana though, Fear on Buboes made it difficult, I had to place a stack of troops next to him and because he attacks each turn eventually my Heavy Crossbowman got him.

Presumably I want to build up any health from buildings that I can? I have a lot of workers, I should be able to rebuild the food improvements reasonably quickly.

Impassable land shouldn't be too big an issue, I'm on a big continent so can always walk around it.

Troops turning barbarian - walk my adepts around casting loyalty? Walls/castles to make sure that at least my cities are fairly safe?

Anything else I can do? Not worth sending some troops to the AV continent to try raze a city or two and delay the inevitable?

Oh, if you're playing as an RoK civ and have its holy city you may want to let the AC reach 70 before trying to bring it down (you'll also need some pretty advanced technologies first). That means you'll be able to build the Mithril Golem, which it one of the strongest units in the game.

It used to be the strongest unit in the game, save for its inability to use any of its xp to purchase promotions (a weakness it shares with all golems). It used to have the highest strength of any unit (40, I think) but that was reduced when it was given enchantment affinity. For some reason, BtS FfH's Mithril golem has the reduced strength but not the affinity. Anyway, it is still a very powerful unit with Divine Earth III (earthquake) and will not join the Army of Wrath. It may be your best defense when Wrath comes. (Although I would rather build him as the Luchuirp, in a city with a blasting workshop. This would give him Sorcery Fire II (which usually only means fireball), which when combined with Divine Earth III would mean he could also cast Ring of Fire and Crush.)


Not really much point in trying to build health to prepare for blight when that happened a long time ago. And having killed a couple horsemen is pretty good. (of course, they get worse. The third one spreads plague and disease, while the fourth creates a Wraith (like the death III summon, but without limited duration) whenever he kills a living unit. The Avatar of Wrath is the worst. There is nothing you can do to stop any unit he defeats from joining the barbarians (loyalty doesn't work here), or to stop a third of the units in the world from joining him when he first appears. This used to only apply to living units, in which case I would recommend focusing on siege and golems, but I don't think that is still true)

I would recommend getting the demon slaying, undead slaying, and fire resistant (hell's deserts aren't really impassible, they just generate the flames feature, which makes the tile impassible to units with less than 20% fire resistance) promotions on whatever units you can. Also, try to get spirit mana. Courage is just too important when you are facing demons.

Razing a few AV cities would be a good idea,except the AC is kinda broken in .25 (I refuse to play without the AC turned off until Shadow, well, unless I'm Sheaim or play to turn Infernal); killing the city's population would likely increase the AC more than getting rid of the AV there would decrease it. Also, killing units with prophecy marks doesn't lower the AC like it should (but building them does increase it). If possible, try to spread RoK to AV cities, convince the leaders to convert, then use inquisitors to remove AV. (Killing Hyborem/wiping out the Infernals is still a good idea)


All in all I'm not sure you need advice; you seem to be handling it better than I would. (31 cities and an overflowing vault?! how is that possible?)

Id echo the other here. Turtle and prep a city to build the mithril golem. Get defense ready in case the horsemen come for you.

also, converting to Order to switch to Good alignment can be a good idea since hell terrain won't spread into the lands of a Good civ. if you're runes you can switch back after 10 turns and keep the good alignment, but you'll lose any runes heroes or high priests you had.

also, in 0.25 razing AV cities also raises the AC i think

What happens at AC 70? AC that high is required to build the mithirl golem? If so I'll move my research down that path ASAP

My heroes (Bambur and Maros) should be able to clean up any of my units that go rogue, given a bit of time. Perhaps I'll stop building my stronger national units until that happens so I don't have to fight them. I've been taking down enemy cities almost exclusively with mithriled macemen and a bit of dwarven cannon and hero support

I guess the question becomes whether to crank out a lot of military now and go on the offensive before the AC tops out, or to wait so that I don't end up with vast numbers of barbarians.

What AC is wrath btw?

Yes, an AC of 70 is required to build either Avatar unit (Mithril Golem for RoK or Meshabber of Dis for AV), which can only be built in their religion's holy city and cost a lot of hammers. Given the difficulties in getting it, I really wish it were given its old strength/affinity back (it used to beat Wrath with ease, but now wrath is stronger by 8 points, and Meshabber's fire and unholy strengths makes his "base" strength higher too, although his tech prereq is much earlier and he costs the same. Both of those get promotions to become even stronger than the un-promotable golem)



Wrath doesn't happen until AC 90. If it weren't for a few bugs making the AC too hard to control, I would say that it isn't too hard to avoid altogether.

I would say that to prepare for Wrath (who by the way might take Bambur and Maros from you), you should get walls and any defensive buildings in every town, then build your strongest possible unit, but take it out of your production line and do something else when you get down to 1 turn remaining.

Then, when Wrath spawns and you lose your army, go back through each city and tell them to build that strongest unit. It remembers how many hammers you spent on that unit and will pick up where you left off (even though you took it out of the production line). So 1 turn later all your cities will have 1 defender returned to them.

Oh, heroes can go too?? Ouch. Thanks for the advice, I'll get my walls and castles up and have some unit production queued.

I guess my other option would be stockpiling more cash for quick completion

I'm very tempted to put all of my better city raiders (and heroes) on a few ships in the middle of the ocean! They are undoubtedly the biggest threat, have a bunch of heavily promoted macemen from my long campaign. Actually, what happens to units on ships when Wrath hits?

Pretty sure about the same as anyone else. 1/3 go to the Wrath army and some die (pretty sure some also die...). Units move when they convert, so I assume they'd wind up on land with Wrath like everyone else.

Pretty sure about the same as anyone else. 1/3 go to the Wrath army and some die (pretty sure some also die...). Units move when they convert, so I assume they'd wind up on land with Wrath like everyone else.

No, heroes are safe from the Avatar of Wrath. However...

I have found that what happens when the AC hits 90 is that 100 comes awfully fast. This is because the Avatar and his minions (heroes not included) will capture, but also raze a few cities. Or, the AI will strike back and take/raze a few cities taken by the Avatar et al.

I think you are confusing what happens during the AC 100 culling when heroes ARE fair game. If you have two, you can count on losing one of them. I find the hero(es) take are fairly random too. For example, I once had Basium with about 500XP and the damn Trojan Horse (counted as a hero unit). I lost Basium and kept the Trojan Horse. :mad: Fortunately, AC 100 is generally a good thing if you are playing Basium as you keep all your Angels and get more, many of them with high XP compliments of the lost heroes from other civs. Yes, I did get an Angel with 500+XP:rolleyes:

If you want your empire to be safe from the Wrath, build your continent so its all covered in cultural bounderies. He wont appear at your continent that way. I noticed that you can easily get rid of the wrath if you are a veil civ. Just banish it (back) to hell with an inquisitor or highpriest. Otherwise good luck!!!!!! lol

For example, I once had Basium with about 500XP and the damn Trojan Horse (counted as a hero unit). I lost Basium and kept the Trojan Horse. :mad:
--
Yes, I did get an Angel with 500+XP:rolleyes:

500+:confused:

How?

angels keep the exp of the unit that spawned it. if you have a 100 exp hero, who dies, a 100 exp angel is spawned in it's place (usefull for upgrading to those high levels like berserker and immortal)

So then how you can get 500+ xp normal units?
I always lose them in :spear: at 100xp

try playing an order-based calabim, it's easy :p
besides that, don't get unlucky in 99,9% losses, and don't fight anything less (at 100 exp+, over 90% of your fights should be 99,9% win anyway)

The raider trait, the Valor spell, and the Altars of the Luonnatar help a lot. Still, the easiest way is to cheat.;)

(I've made angels start with spirit guide, so I can funnel all their xp into a few angels by sending thr others inot suicidal battles. I also Like to give one of my cities all levels of the Altars of the Luonnatar (for almost 90 free xp for disciples), preferably the one with the council of Esus so I can send weak but high level HN disciple units into my neighbors land to die. I also changed the limit on free xp to 700. )

Well, since he was saying it came from Basium, who is Immortal, and VERY strong to begin with, and has the Raider Trait.... 500+ isn't too hard, it just means you destroyed one of your neighbors with nothing but Basium.

Basium is not Immortal. (Although Hyborem is, and making Basium start with Immortality would make just as much sense)

I don't think you would get angels from Immortal units now anyway. I'm pretty sure that in the BtS implementation these units don't actually dies anymore, but are transported to the owner's capital just before they would otherwise lose (hence the lack of "___has been destroyed by a ___ ____" and "___has created ___" messages)

Also I'm pretty sure Basium starts with the Angel promotion, and is thus not alive. Only living units are supposed to created angels upon their death. (I think there was a bug with this a while back, since I've seen Basium's death lead to the birth of a new high-xp angel at least once, but I thought it had been fixed)

Well, sucks to be the good guy I guess :(

Well, since he was saying it came from Basium, who is Immortal, and VERY strong to begin with, and has the Raider Trait.... 500+ isn't too hard, it just means you destroyed one of your neighbors with nothing but Basium.

I noticed the AI will often send Basium out alone. Yes, he is strong, but he can be damaged and the AI doesn't wait for him to get fully healed. The result is one dead Basium and that cripples the Mercurians. That's why I never continue play as my normal civ when I build the Gate and switch to the Mercurians.

My strategy is to let him sit in the city taken over a few turns and maybe pick off a few wandering units near the border (you will likely be at war quickly or there may be barbs around).

Then, I send him out with a couple of high XP angels, a priest (usually Confessor), and maybe a unit with Sanctify to keep the counter down. This team is normally unstoppable and can mow down civs (usually Evil) in short order.

As you are constantly at war as the Mercurians, it is not tough to rack up XP, not only for Basium, but his escort Angels (and hopefully a Herald or two) as well.

Too be honest, no you're not in a race against time. You've already had blight, and killed two horsemen. You might as well just let it happen. Allow it to increase, get the mithril golem and kill the next two horsemen as they appear. They might well appear on the other continent anyway. When the avatar guy comes he will take just as many units from theother civs as he does from you and again he may appear on the other continent.

I really hope that Armageddon is improved a lot if not in shadow then in ice. I just don't think its enough. When those demons appear with the little grate ype things into hell, all they do is sit there and wait for you to kill them.

Also, so many times the AV never really comes into power and hyborem is never spawned. This never seems to happen unless i do it myself which is not really a path i ever go down. Anyway, this means that even as the AC is rising rapidly due to OO and wars, hell terrain just never appears.

I think that when the AC gets quite high random areas of the world should change to hell terrain, regardless of alignments. This will then spread, this would also sop the problem that as far as I know only the continent with hytborem willbecome hell and other islands and continents are fine. Maybe at a certain AC hyborem should come into the world anyway, this time with a huge army. That would certainly liven up armageddon.

Hell may spread faster when Hybo comes in, but I have seen it without him. And it will cross the Ocean, it just takes it a while to do so.

It isn't supposed to start until he comes (although his defeat definately does not make it go away) or until the arrival of whichever horseman spreads hell wherever he goes. Since hell does (invisibly) spread i the seas, other continents won't be safe for long. However, I really do think that Hell NEVER entering Good lands needs to be changed.

However, I really do think that Hell NEVER entering Good lands needs to be changed.

I so agree.

Make it spread there at AC 100, but never in Mercurian lands.
(please)

100 seems too high; since that is the maximum, it could only go down from there (and would very quickly, seeing how Armageddon would wipe out many evil units, including those with prophecy marks). Although it would likely rise again, it wouldn't stay at 100 long enough for hell to spread.

Personally I would rather have no AC requirements for it to spread anywhere, only modifiers that control how fast it spreads based on alignment and AC. I would like the changes to be gradual, not dependent on specific cut-offs that a human player would know about and could exploit but an AI could not. (The Altars should also all decrease the rate of spread slightly, each a little more than the one before until the final one keeps it out altogether. The Mercurian Palace could have the same effect)

Also, I think the Defile spell is too weak. Instead of just causing fallout, it should cause fallout and increase the plot counter slightly (moving the tile closer to becoming hell, but preferably not turning it straight to hell in one cast unless it was already close to turning) (I already changed this on my version). That way evil civs could spread hell in their enemies lands before an invasion, and the Sanctify spell would then actually be of some use to good civs. (Currently the AI is only allowed to use Sanctify in their own lands, which, since the civs most likely to have adepts with this spell are good civs, makes it almost useless. Letting Devouts move in rival territory and cast sanctify is currently only good under human control. Personally I think this restriction should be removed (I already removed it).

Again, I guess your point of view on hell spreading depends on the civ(s) you play. ;)

As I usually play Good civs I find it spreads too fast and is just a nuisance.

I think the Sanctify spell is very week now. It really has two purposes, I think:

1. Sanctifying city ruins to lower the AC. Sometimes you will get -1 and sometimes not. If you raze a large city, you might get a +5 or more. Use Sanctify and you get -1 if you are lucky.

2. I can place an army of Adepts with Sanctify (actually I use Devouts) around my borders to keep the stuff away, but after Sanctifying, in 2-3 turns it is back. It travels across lakes and up/down rivers. As stated, killing off Hyborem and his lot does nothing to rid the world of hell. Once he comes you have to deal with the spread regardless of the AC.

I realize the game/mod is biased towards reaching Armageddon and all, but if you are going to make the stuff enter Good lands, then you need something to counteract that...like a beefed up Sanctify spell IMO.

Maybe after he dies it should stop spreading. Then you can just use sanctify to remove it all.

I managed to play the game some more on the weekend - the AC counter has actually barely moved, its about 65 or 66. I've killed the 3rd horseman, he impaled himself on a pikeman of all things.

Of far more concern than impending armageddon has actually been about 4 or 5 civs declaring war on me simultaneously, which given how big my borders are has been a major pain. It Looks like being a long drawn out battle - I've lgot to the point where I have enough troop density around my borders to hold level, but will take a while longer to build sufficient armies to start taking out the enemy civs.

First priority will be taking out those on my continent, while simultaneously building up my fleet to start winning the naval war - am well behind at the moment, none of my original cities were coastal.