Hi all,
After messing up my last game of Civ4 (BtS v3.13) I decided to restart on a huge map, medium & small random continents/islands on marathon/monarch with the Greek leader Pericles.
Anyway, I ran into this almost sickeningly great starting location with 4 flood plain tiles and a whole bunch of coastal seafood and an incense that has left me asking how to work with it properly. (No, I did NOT use any customization or map respawning here, just got kinda lucky, I think.) :

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z316/Timevalue/?action=view&current=Civ4ScreenShot0000.jpg

(You may have to click on screenshot to zoom it in....)

I've searched and read all the posts I could find on properly timing work boat and worker production, but those 4 flood plain tiles make this a really unusual situation here for me. On top of all this, the starting scout popped a goody hut and found agriculture! Now I have agriculture, fishing, and hunting. I almost feel like I won the food pantry lotto!!
What to do next? Is this spot a slave-whippers paradise? It seems like a nice GP farm over the long run, but for now the best production tiles are a couple of weak 1F, 2H tiles (forested hill grasslands). No 3H tiles available. The big, fat cross will take shape after only 8 turns because of Pericles' creativity.

Any thoughts on dealing with this big bucket of food correctly? I've been straining my brain on the best way to go on this one....

Thanks all,

~Benford's Law

Looks nice. Nice GP farm ultimately, but even more important, a nice income source early in the game. Work boat (or 2) first, to grow your population. What I would probably do, as well, is (1) locate a good place for city 2 that has more production potential; (2) research pottery and cottage those flood plains, at least until you get enough happiness resources to support a huge population; (3) choose wonders for the city pretty carefully in order to maximize your chances of getting the type of GP you want. (My inclintation might be to try for great lighthouse/colossus to make this a real financial powerhouse and get a bunch of merchants.)

Whip out a granary ASAP. Then whip the city aggressively for the infra and do what you pease with the city. If you're going to make it your GP farm, you may want to consider relocating your capital. I wouldn't make it hybrid until late game though.

Thanks eewallace,
I'll carefully consider everything you said before making my opening moves with this game. I noticed you emphasized commerce over slavery, and I may ignore the slavery possibilty.....but it sure looked like a juicy target for whipping! :lol:
I often hear advice on cottaging the flood plains, but I wasn't sure whether to make Athens a cottage or specialist economy here (thinking long term on that one....)

@shyuhue - posted this before reading your reply. Thanks. I'll certainly consider that possibility, too. But I need to go wheel, pottery, mining and then BW if I do what you suggested....not sure yet.

~Benford's Law

Depends on your surroundings. You're badly in need of:
1) Production
2) Happiness

As you say 1) can be obtained through whipping, but you have 7 forests, so chopping is also an option. These both suggest teching mining -> BW. A worker will be able to do nothing to increase production up until you can clear forests and mine the two grassland hills, and increasing food is best done with workboats, not by irrigating floodplains.

IMO there's no reason to research the wheel -- you have no resources that can be hooked up via roads.

Time the production of work boats and workers so that you produce a worker as soon as you can after getting BW. I think you're better off starting by working one of the 1/2/0 tiles, to get the first work boat in 20 turns.

EDIT: Tech Wheel/Pottery after Mining/BW

Ultimocrat,
Yes, I accidentally listed the tech queue in the wrong order in my last post. I was aware that mining and BW should come first especially if I use the whip. I simply had the Wheel on the screen for the sake of taking the screenshot; I was going to change that, anyway.

~Benford's Law

Well, time to jump in with my first post (although I've been lurking ever since I got the game last year). I play on prince and struggle a bit for wins :rolleyes: , so I'm not an accomplished player at all, but here's my $.02:

1. Why are you researching the wheel? Hooking up those resources won't be important until you get near your health/happiness caps some time in the future. Those 4 forested hills will be your source of :hammers: , but you need BW to chop them and mining to mine them. You also need BW (and maybe IW) to enable your UU (phalanx) which will be the source of your future cities :hammer: that the AI is building for you. :lol: So I would say mining->BW should be your tech priority.

2. Why are you building a work boat? That will take forever without :hammers: and you need a worker to unlock them from those hills. So build a worker first, then maybe chop out a work boat and build a mine. The work boat will get you :food: and :commerce: from the clams, which will grow your city and speed your research. With a worker and BW you can unlock the potential of this site the quickest. Don't build more than 1 work boat at the beginning, because you need to work a mined hill for :hammers: so that it doesn't take 30 turns to build anything. :crazyeye: Also, that worker can chop out another worker and/or settler if it turns out you don't have bronze or iron in your BFC.

3. Once you have bronze or iron hooked up you can start whipping out phalanxes to take over a real production city. :ar15: :dance: Only hook up those food resources when you have the pop to work them.

Like I said, just my $.02.

P.S. Could you post a save of your start position? I've never had a start this good and would love to try it. :D

huerfanista-
I really had no intention at all of researching the wheel. I just left it showing on my screenshot because I was in a hurry to post it. I know researching that would be a bad move right now for sure.
As for uploading a save game. I would be happy to do so! But, how do you do it? Please post some instructions and I'll try to get it uploaded. As you can tell from my number of posts, I am new to CivFanatics.....but I've been a lurker off and on here for years (lurked Apolyton's Civ site way back in my Civ 2 days, too).

~Benford's Law

Sorry for the double posting.
I am simply posting the save game huerfanista requested after I searched around learning how to do it.
This save is immediately BEFORE Athens was settled in place and before the scout moved to the nearby goody hut:

Benford's Law said: But, how do you do it? Please post some instructions and I'll tryto get it uploaded.

I'm in the same boat! I have no clue how to post a save. Maybe someone else with more experience can help here.

OK, looking around it appears that when replying to a message there's a paper clip icon on the top row (in the "Reply to Thread" box) which enables you to uplaod a saved game file from your computer. :rolleyes: I've never tried it myself. :lol:


edit: sorry, I posted before seeing your reply.

Already have the save uploaded on Post #9. Have fun! Please don't give me any spoilers, though. :)

~Benford's Law

Hereditary Rule, Caste System, Pacificism, Great Library, National Epic

Go Nuts

I've wondered in similar starts if worker first might be best because an irrigated flood plain is just as good as clams, and almost as good as fish. Additionally, non-financial, the flood plain is only 1 less commerce than coast and the same as ocean.

In this case, I think worker first wins out just because you won't have much production before BW because you need to chop some wood to build mines.

Pericles is one of the best Specialist Economy leaders. Phi + Cre means not just lots of early Great People, but both cheap libraries and universities. With fishing and agriculture in hand, all you need are BW and writing and you can start working towards CoL for Caste System.

I would save some forests for chopping the Great Library in the capital. With the super-abundant food, you can have the best of both worlds and both cottage the flood plains and run many scientists in your capital. After BW, go for writing, then CoL through Priesthood (the quickest way). If you can find a second or third city site with a lot of forests, try to chop the Pyramids there. This start can produce a fantastic settled Specialist Economy.

Even without the Pyramids, you can run so many scientists under Caste System and Hereditary Rule in the capital that you will have a huge amount of Great Scientists to settle and still have a good tech rate.

A couple points about high-food coastal starts.

1. There is an aggressive neighbor on your continent who wants your capital as his GP farm.
2. You need to get your second city out quickly so it can pump military units to defend you.

I've wondered in similar starts if worker first might be best because an irrigated flood plain is just as good as clams, and almost as good as fish. Additionally, non-financial, the flood plain is only 1 less commerce than coast and the same as ocean.

I think you can get both a work boat and a worker out before BW. Working the 1/2/0 forest (or forested hills) gets a workboat out in 20 turns -- switching the first citizen to the fish means 5f+1h on the worker for another 20 turns. I'm not familiar with marathon ... but given 29 turns for the Wheel, I doubt we'll be to BW before turn 41.

Worker first: 3f/1h on the worker comes in at 30 turns, and won't have the FP irrigated for another 10.

2x Workboat -> Warriors -> 2x Worker -> Settler ?

Mining -> BW ASAP.

Time the Worker with BW so you can chop the hill and mine it.

Thanks everyone, for your replies and advice so far....I appreciate it.

@Ultimocrat - Those fish tiles are in the ocean, won't be accessed until Astronomy, I think.

Right now, I'm just humbly reading and soaking in everyone's good thoughts. Viewing both long-term civic & wonder strategies along with calculating the more humble short-term problem of 2 clam workboats (3rd clam will be accessed in only 8 turns....tempting me to "raise the whip" a bit after BW so I can save the trees for wonder building later), then worker....or some other queue involving a second scout if a lion should come along and eat my starting one :eek: (Yes, obviously I try to use the scout's 1st MP on flatland and run for cover in a nearby forest on my scout's 2nd MP when I see a nearby beastie!)

~Benford's Law

Well, time to jump in with my first post (although I've been lurking ever since I got the game last year). I play on prince and struggle a bit for wins :rolleyes: , so I'm not an accomplished player at all, but here's my $.02:

1. Why are you researching the wheel? Hooking up those resources won't be important until you get near your health/happiness caps some time in the future. Those 4 forested hills will be your source of :hammers: , but you need BW to chop them and mining to mine them. You also need BW (and maybe IW) to enable your UU (phalanx) which will be the source of your future cities :hammer: that the AI is building for you. :lol: So I would say mining->BW should be your tech priority.

2. Why are you building a work boat? That will take forever without :hammers: and you need a worker to unlock them from those hills. So build a worker first, then maybe chop out a work boat and build a mine. The work boat will get you :food: and :commerce: from the clams, which will grow your city and speed your research. With a worker and BW you can unlock the potential of this site the quickest. Don't build more than 1 work boat at the beginning, because you need to work a mined hill for :hammers: so that it doesn't take 30 turns to build anything. :crazyeye: Also, that worker can chop out another worker and/or settler if it turns out you don't have bronze or iron in your BFC.

3. Once you have bronze or iron hooked up you can start whipping out phalanxes to take over a real production city. :ar15: :dance: Only hook up those food resources when you have the pop to work them.

Like I said, just my $.02.

P.S. Could you post a save of your start position? I've never had a start this good and would love to try it. :D

On #1. He said he is changing the tech path to BW and just selected the wheel to take the screen shot.

On#2 Fromt eh growth time and 60turns for a workboat it looks like epic speed. switching the citizen to a forested hill will produce the workboat in 23 turns. If he goes work boat first the 4food will produce the worker faster AND provide 2commerce while the worker builds. he will be able to whip the worker when he discovers BW. On epic, he won't have BW when the worker finishes building. And he won't need to use up a valuable and scarce forest to chop it out.

At the OP
send the scout searching to find 3 good city locations. Follow the river to see if there is a patch of floodplains and grasslands for a commerce city. Then find two good production sites. One for building the pyramids and the other for troops. Between whipping in the capital and the troop city you can get enough units to defend yourself well.
That city should be a GP early-mid game with the Great Library and national epic there. If you settle the great scientists don't do it there but rather in a cottaged city which will get better use from them since they will be combined with towns and Oxford University. I would definately avoid the temptation to build the Maoa statues there (spelling?), but rather build the Globe Theatre. Once that is built(code word whipped) You can have 27 citizens from working 13 tiles prebiology. 16:food: from floodplains, 9:food: from the grasslands 15:food: from clams 12:food: from fish and 2:food: from the city center. with a harbor a couple grains and a granary and aquaduct plus the fresh water you will only lose about 6-8 :food: to unhealthiness. or 2-3 pop. So that leaves you with 10 scientist for 75:beaker: and 136 GPP with the national academy and pacifism plus a library

I would leave the forests intact to help combat floodplain unhealthiness and pray for the herbalist random event.
As for the fish, galleys and workboats can enter ocean squares in your cultural borders. So you can access them after turn eight. Though work the clams first since you are food rich and cash poor at the beginning.

Eventually you will run out of GP potential and the globe theatre makes that draftville.

CivCorpse,

Egads! You're right about the work boat entering your own cultural ocean square. My mistake there (apologies to Ultimocrat for my incorrect post earlier). I even found this rule in my (wholly inadequate) printed Civ 4 gold manual just now.:blush: I must have been misled by the new BtS astronomy/ocean requirement rule here.
So many fine little rules that can be so easily overlooked and forgotten....

This game is at Marathon speed, and just like having the Wheel up there for the screenshot, I also just picked a random square for the citizen to work on so I could quickly move along for the screenshot.

Switching the citizen to the 2H, 1F forest hill gets the work boat done in 20 turns (Marathon).

Finding a troop city and using hereditary rule for whipping the capitol will be strongly considered.

~Benford's Law

hereditary rule isn't necessary for whipping the capital. it is necessary for growing the capital huge and running a huge pile of specialists.

I very much suggest that you cottage the Flood Plains. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this city needs precisely zero farms, and will have too much food in the long run if you farm. With just a lighthouse and fishing nets, you've got 58 F in the BFC for pop 29, or 9 specialists. Farming all tiles could get you 78 F, for pop 39, but I've never gotten enough health or happiness to get a city that large -- it takes quite a bit of sacrifice to do, and probably isn't worth it.

In the early game, toggle between working the seafood+cottages for max. growth, and seafood-only for max. specialists (3 clams+2 fish+fp cottage+city = 32f with 6 tiles worked, for pop. 16 and 10 specialists!) I'd say this is what you should aim for by the early midgame.

futurehermit -
When I wrote that out in my post I was thinking out loud to myself on issues of happiness. My happy cap is only 5, so I would be bumping up against it pretty quickly and I was "envisioning" legions of troops coming to the capitol from the troop city to quell the restless folk if or when I use the whip (not experienced enough with slavery gameplay, I'm afraid).

Ultimocrat - I've never played Pericles before and I agree that he is a "specialist economy" master. Even so, you seem to be right about cottaging those flood plain tiles early for maximum gain and not sacrificing too much for 30+ population. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my 7 forest tiles. Obviously, one can come down.....but the other 6? Still working out a ton of factors in my head.....

~Benford's Law

Well, I can see how that could work in theory that you whip more constantly and use HR to manage :( but instead I would just suggest that you whip prior to HR and grow afterwards. You can grow very quickly into a very large city running many specialists and tbh I think that is the best approach here as you will be generating great people very, very quickly with caste system/pacificism/GL/NE if you're running HR to grow the city very large.

Well, I can see how that could work in theory that you whip more constantly and use HR to manage :( but instead I would just suggest that you whip prior to HR and grow afterwards. You can grow very quickly into a very large city running many specialists and tbh I think that is the best approach here as you will be generating great people very, very quickly with caste system/pacificism/GL/NE if you're running HR to grow the city very large.

As always I defer to FutureHermit in matters of SE. I agree whole heartedly with his tech/wonder advice. My plan hinges on early Representation from the Pyramids. With that much food available, you really really want the Mids. The globe theatre is there because you can't run HR AND Rep at the same time. With that many specialists the +3 beakers per is too big to pass up. The draw back is that you can't build oxford university there because of the two national wonder limit. But if you move your Great scientists to a cottaged city you get the oxford university bonus for them AND the towns. Plus you get to run Representation. Switching your capital to the science city and running Buearacracy makes those towns absolute power houses.

Well, some people are planning very far in advance and giving advice on wonders, economy, etc. Originally the OP wanted to know about the very early game so that's what I was thinking about. (Also, future's SE advice pretty much sums it up.)

Anyway, a few quick thoughts.

1. There is no reason to build a farm in this city. It doesn't get better than Fish as far as food resources go. You have two, plus two Crabs.

2. Fish are always a top priority for me. The only reason I would delay a boat when I start with Fish is if there are a ton of great jobs for a Worker to do. When you start with a Work Boat, you get the bonus of allowing your city to grow. A 4-pop city with 2 Fish tiles being worked is primed for whipping.

3. I would be very selective about chopping. Those forests are the only source of production for this city. Each one may be lackluster on its own, but you can stagnate the city at its happy cap and work every forest, giving you a respectable amount of production. Whipping is great in the early game, but it can't go on forever.

Rarely do I run a full-blown SE. If I were going to, maybe a farm would be in order in the late game. Personally I would focus on getting the Seafood while going for BW. Then I would head for Pottery to get a Granary up and cottage the FPs. Of course, I usually end up moving my capital after my 4th city and making the former capital into a hybrid.

Again, a pure SE might play out differently, I don't have a lot of experience there. But my feeling is that cottages have their place in ANY economy. Unless you're trying to prove a point, there's no reason to limit yourself by refusing to build cottages.

3. I would be very selective about chopping. Those forests are the only source of production for this city. Each one may be lackluster on its own, but you can stagnate the city at its happy cap and work every forest, giving you a respectable amount of production. Whipping is great in the early game, but it can't go on forever.

Two of the forsts are on grassland hills w/river -- they should be chopped early so the hills can be mined for nice 1/3/1 tiles. Maybe chop 3 forests later for a wonder-build, and leave 2 for +1 health and decent post-lumbermill production.

You guys may not believe this, but I still haven't even started my first turn on this particular game yet! :lol: (I probably shouldn't be playing Monarch, but I'm glad I chose marathon if I had to do it this way.)
The reason I haven't played yet? All this long-term planning and tech development decisions. At first glance, I was ready to take on mining and BW, but a careful look at the tech tree has forced me to reconsider. Shouldn't I make a beeline for Priesthood so I can get an early jump on Writing (for 1/2 price libraries since Pericles is creative) and Col for the Caste System? It would seem that Priesthood is the key tech to get if I don't plan to build cottages or a granary for a little while...(Priesthood is the key tech for BOTH Writing and CoL).
I'm halfway torn between Mysticism and Mining because both offer access to Masonry (for possible Pyramids/Representation)....Since the AI will probably get Buddhism, I could make a run for Polytheism (founding Hinduism as a bonus) on the way to Priesthood.
Maybe the mining/BW could wait a little bit in this case since the strong food and work boats in Athens could churn out a worker/settler for the second city in a reasonable time anyway?:confused:
I have 3 clams and 2 fish out there....so I could make multiple work boats right off the bat to follow Mysticism/Polytheism/Mining/BW...
This way, I could still save all 7 forest tiles for the moment, too....
Sound like a good approach? Just thinking of something different here.

~Benford's Law

As if that weren't already the best starting spot ever, you're also philosophical and start with fishing. I'd go on discussing how amazing that start is, but the words fail me.

DigitalBoy,
Yeah, I know....It's a pretty awesome food bucket city. You'll just have to take my word for it that it was a lucky random spot that wasn't customized or "respawned".
I have no idea what lies beyond in the darkness. (Nor do I want to know right now.)
I'm just struggling with a good approach to this start and hope I don't mess it up!

~Benford's Law

EDIT - I'm pretty much going to rule out my wild idea of Mysticism --->Polytheism---->Mining---->BW
I'll try to do some final complex work boat calculations before going ahead with the general consensus of Mining--->BW for sure, though...
The reason I even considered the Hinduism race was because the food at this city is so abundant it seems I could afford a small "luxurious" sidetrack
into an early religion. However, having Athens be a certain holy city would hurt a bit in trying to produce Great Scientists and (to a lesser extent) Great Artists. Having tons of food units from multiple work boats could also effectively delay the worker/settler and not even try to chop rush.
If anyone thinks my early Hinduism race is a rotten idea feel free to tell me! I have a thick skin and I'm not easily offended...

My advice is to start with work boat. It will let the city grow. In fact I think growing the city to happy cap (u could have time for 2 workboats in that time I think) could be a wise choice.

At happy cap (5) you can build worker, settler, worker, settler, worker, settler...
until you get bw, then u chop a settler so u get down to size 3, and switch to building some military units til happy cap again.

Imagine how fast this city can produce workers and settlers. U will be able to rex so fast.

My advice is to start with work boat. It will let the city grow. In fact I think growing the city to happy cap (u could have time for 2 workboats in that time I think) could be a wise choice.

At happy cap (5) you can build worker, settler, worker, settler, worker, settler...
until you get bw, then u chop a settler so u get down to size 3, and switch to building some military units til happy cap again.

Imagine how fast this city can produce workers and settlers. U will be able to rex so fast.

I say tech to BW while building 2workboats then a warrior. The start a settler and whip him when able. Go settle a city while you tech some things for the worker to do and avoid chopping those forests. Whip for production. people grow back way faster than trees. Use all that food to build settlers since your lack of hammers isn't hurting settler/worker production. I would start mining and farming the second city so it can start the Mids. You can whip military from the capital for defense or build them in another city if you find two site with good production.
But honestly, if you are still figuring out the kinks to BtS and Monarch level...shelve this game and try a few others to get more familiar with it.

@InFlux5 and Ultimocrat - Your observations are very sound and I agree with not farming anything and letting cottages form along the flood plains. Just as Ultimocrat did, I carefully counted out all the food in the BFC and adjusted to the lighthouse and fishing bonuses. Farming anything here would indeed appear counterproductive. I'm not trying to prove anything about running a SE so a hybrid economy is just fine with me. I will also be very careful about cutting those trees down (3-5 tiles max until lumber mill) Thanks for your input!

@CivCorpse - I agree that Monarch difficulty will be a challenge for me because I've never won at this level before....And, I just got the BtS pack (v3.13 patched on after it was bought) a few days ago, to boot. I've always considered the first turn to be among the most critical of the game, because it can require both long-term and short-term planning to set a proper foundation for a good game even though the actual information I have of my situation compared to the whole world is extremely limited at the start.
I sort of have to "think backwards" from how I want to win a game, down to the wonder types that appeal to my leader's traits, all the way down to how it synergizes with my pre-historic starting location.
Obviously, just about everyone has given some great, professional advice on this thread....and I was thinking a bit "outside the box" when I considered an early religion. It doesn't seem very useful to me now, anyway, since I would be more interested in a flexible springboard position for an eventual space race or cultural victory (most culture gleaned from GA's and GS's and their wonder types instead of religion in this case, apparently).

If this game gets too overwhelming for me, I'll humbly step down to a lower difficulty setting and a different game (though, the marathon speed and this great starting spot emboldens me to try this game out).

~Benford's Law

i wrote chop in my previous post but meant whip. yeah, 2 workboats then a warrior so u get happycap 5. after warrior is out, u should be at happy cap.

then settler, whip it as soon as u can, then another warrior(s) til u are size 4, then worker. by that time u have sufficient worker techs i think.

with all that seafood I agree that the floodplains can be cottaged while still running a primarily specialist-based economy. I think futurehermit recommended HR to deal with happy cap but how many freakin' archers are you gonna be able to spare? Unless you get mids or use HR+butt loads of units that could be better used in war I think you will simply have too much food until Globe theater.

I wouldn't chop in this situation. You need the health bonus.

My biggest problem was not so much deciding what to build, but which techs to pursue early on. After much internal debate over whether to take a big chance on Mysticism/Polytheism....I am going ahead with mining/BW.

I want to eventually have plenty of flexibility for a cultural or space race victory, but I think I will be just fine not worrying about founding an early religion since there will be so many options later in the cultural area, anyway....

THE BEAUTIES OF SIMPLE, BASIC MICROMANAGEMENT
165460


EDIT - This is incorrect, sorry...see last sentence...
(Inaccurate analysis removed!)

Thanks to everyone for your strategy discussion!

EDIT- Oops, my mistake! Now I see that if I do work the clam square I'm still producing 1 extra hammer per turn in the capitol for 12 turns, anyway. So, I guess I'll have to scratch that flood plain idea and re-look at this....
~Benford's Law

Fish is clearly the best resource. You need it worked ASAP, which means using the forest hill to build the workboat.

DaveMcW and anyone else...,
I don't know if anyone has bothered to download and play out my 4000BC save or not, so I can't say anything further without a bit of a spoiler:Here is my 3475BC save (35 turns on Marathon) 165484
I know that in most games the starting location is usually much better than the surrounding areas, but this looks to be a very challenging game since I am isolated on a small snaky continent. Not too many happy or food resources to work with, either. At least I have stone for Pyramids....but I'm going to have to study sailing soon....I'm also hoping I didn't screw anything up by going ahead and studying BW even when I suspected I was isolated. The randomly generated sea levels are low and the climate is cold in this game. Huge map with "Medium and small" landmasses.

~Benford's Law

DaveMcW and anyone else...,
I don't know if anyone has bothered to download and play out my 4000BC save or not, so I can't say anything further without a bit of a spoiler:[SPOILER]Here is my 3475BC save (35 turns on Marathon) [ATTACH]165484~Benford's Law

BW was a great choice. Because you need it to whip. with so little production available in your starting location, you need the whip to get the ssettlers and workers out to establish cities in areas that have production.

I find that lately I'm not using the whip much. Just growing to happy then building workers/settlers with high food/production tiles. I dunno if this is the best way to go, but it seems to work alright. Maybe whip some prior to caste system, but you really want caste system and hereditary rule as fast as possible imo.

no need to whip settlers/workers if you are working high food tiles.

i whip a settler sometimes for 2/3 pop and thats when im planning to build for example a granary or a library afterwards, so the city can keep working high food tiles (and by that time I have at least 1 mine up) instead of working forest tiles.

other then that i rarely whip settlers/workers.

Dunno how you intend to order your workers to chop the forest hills and then mine them later or just order them to mine the forest hill from the outset (ie delay the chop hammers until the mine completes). Sometimes delaying is useful eg you are about to learn Mathematics or complete the Forge. In your situation delaying the chop gives you a few more turns of the health benefit of the forest.

This matters as the forest hills are your only source of hammers, you don't want to chop one that your citizens are working (unless converting the forest straight to a mine). Best policy is to organise workers and citizens so you are not chopping forests you are working unless you mine the forest directly.

@CivCorpse, futurehermit, and stormyorky - Thanks for staying with me even though this game has already begun.
I cannot go any further without:
Yes, this is going to be a challenging game for me, to be sure. I'm not really a Monarch player....so maybe this is a blessing in disguise and a good learning experience in how to deal with adversity because the relative scarcity of food resources that could be an issue with a specialist economy. I briefly thought about "giving this game up" but I'll give it a go and see what happens. (Not making any promises yet, though.)
This will be a SLOW game if I play it out because I need to carefully consider a lot of things before making any moves. I need all the science and commerce I can get my hands on right now. I tend to agree with futurehermit about using "the whip" sparingly for now because I could only find 40 gold or so from a goody hut to help pay upkeep (also found animal husbandry from a hut) and I will have to keep my science beaker as high as possible for as long as possible. Cultural victory? Seems like a longshot because there aren't that many hills and the forests in the northern half of this small continent that help for rushing builds also seem to be a bit scarce. The southern half of this continent is covered with jungle, so it is a low priority for now....tempting me to try to expand east or west with cheap galleys (or maybe even an odball work boat since there are a lot of coasts due to the low sea level) once I study sailing when I get my first 3-4 cities on this land.
Colussus and Pyramids appear to be a "MUST HAVE" for this one....
Even at Marathon speed, if feels that I have SO many priorities with so little time to act here. I also must consider evaluating "SAILING" quickly since Marathon speed gives you a "time bonus" for producing early naval units for exploration compared to faster game speeds. Food and commerce seem "okay" (especially for a couple of coastal city sites) but production appears to be at a premium except for the hills around the stone tile....I will have to look at some potential city sites and so forth before going much further. I'm also wondering if I should keep the "stoney hill" city landlocked so I can place a "commerce city" in a more ideal position north of it so it captures both wine and incense (but hammers will be at a premium in that city even with Moai Statues).
Okay, there's my 2 :commerce: for now.




Thanks for your post, Perugia. Was typing this out when you posted.

~Benford's Law

@CivCorpse, futurehermit, and stormyorky - Thanks for staying with me even though this game has already begun.
I cannot go any further without:
Yes, this is going to be a challenging game for me, to be sure. I'm not really a Monarch player....so maybe this is a blessing in disguise and a good learning experience in how to deal with adversity because the relative scarcity of food resources that could be an issue with a specialist economy. I briefly thought about "giving this game up" but I'll give it a go and see what happens. (Not making any promises yet, though.)
This will be a SLOW game if I play it out because I need to carefully consider a lot of things before making any moves. I need all the science and commerce I can get my hands on right now. I tend to agree with futurehermit about using "the whip" sparingly for now because I could only find 40 gold or so from a goody hut to help pay upkeep (also found animal husbandry from a hut) and I will have to keep my science beaker as high as possible for as long as possible. Cultural victory? Seems like a longshot because there aren't that many hills and the forests in the northern half of this small continent that help for rushing builds also seem to be a bit scarce. The southern half of this continent is covered with jungle, so it is a low priority for now....tempting me to try to expand east or west with cheap galleys (or maybe even an odball work boat since there are a lot of coasts due to the low sea level) once I study sailing when I get my first 3-4 cities on this land.
Colussus and Pyramids appear to be a "MUST HAVE" for this one....
Even at Marathon speed, if feels that I have SO many priorities with so little time to act here. I also must consider evaluating "SAILING" quickly since Marathon speed gives you a "time bonus" for producing early naval units for exploration compared to faster game speeds. Food and commerce seem "okay" (especially for a couple of coastal city sites) but production appears to be at a premium except for the hills around the stone tile....I will have to look at some potential city sites and so forth before going much further. I'm also wondering if I should keep the "stoney hill" city landlocked so I can place a "commerce city" in a more ideal position north of it so it captures both wine and incense (but hammers will be at a premium in that city even with Moai Statues).
Okay, there's my 2 :commerce: for now.




Thanks for your post, Perugia. Was typing this out when you posted.

~Benford's Law

You can use a workboat to explore anything a galley could, and they are cheaper. Post a screen shot of what you have discovered so far and maybe we can help with city placement.

If this game gets too overwhelming for me, I'll humbly step down to a lower difficulty setting and a different game (though, the marathon speed and this great starting spot emboldens me to try this game out).

~Benford's Law

When getting a juicy start location like that I sometimes replay the map if I screw it up the first time. On Marathon, the speed can make mistakes very hard to recover from. You can always play the map again trying for cottages rather than an SE. You paid the 40-50 bucks for the game and paid for your computer. Do whatever makes you happy.

CivCorpse and any other CivExperts,

When I try out a game, I play it as realistically as possible. No turning back. No reloads. I even checked the "No unit action recommendation" option on the small chance that the computer puts blue circles near resources in unexplored areas my beginning settler shouldn't know about. I'm just trying to make it as realistic of a chess game as possible. If I give up or mess up badly I simply start a whole new game on a whole different map with perhaps a different civ.

Anyway, here are those screenshots:

I am having trouble with my file attachment system on the CivFanatics site so I had to use Photobucket, instead.
Just click on the links and click on the screenshot itself to zoom in when you see the little magnifying glass:

This is the whole world I've explored (except for the useless polar ice cap up north). Also has some scribbled terrain notes:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z316/Timevalue/Civ4ScreenShot0005.jpg

This is a zoomed-out version of my possible city squares (with notes). The only worthwhile area to settle is in the middle of the continent for now. Note the proposed locations for the "Commerce" and "Light Production and Commerce" cities would have a connecting river for some trade income once sailing is discovered:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z316/Timevalue/Civ4ScreenShot0006.jpg

A closer look south of Athens at the possible "Heavy Production" city (Near the stone on the left) and the "Light Production/commerce" city on the right by the coast:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z316/Timevalue/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg

A closer look at the area north of Athens. Possible "Heavy Commerce" city on the left by the coast:
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z316/Timevalue/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

EDIT - After looking carefully at the food output on the "Light Production/Commerce City" south of Athens (near the horses)....I've now concluded this would be an excellent spot for a potential "super science city". I think it can support 8 or 9 cottages on top of all the extra commerce income it generates along the coast. The fish and rice food resources are a huge boon to this city radius and looks to be a nice area to settle any Great Scientists....Still trying to shuffle around other possible city sites...

Do these look like good sites to you? I may experience some overlap problems on the BFC's for these cities but I had too hard of a time drawing them out on the screenshots.





Here's my 3250 BC save in case those screenshots don't help (Don't look if you don't want a spoiler!) :)
165521

~Benford's Law

This is my take on things
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd242/civcorpse/dots.jpg
Red Dot city is the heavy production city. It is healthier than either of your selections because with a harbor built, you get extra health from each seafood resource. You have 2 already and crabs will give you +3. The river gives you +2. It also exchanges a grassland hills for a plains hill. Plus the coastal start makes harbors and Customs house available for increased trade route commerce. If you settle the commerce city to the north as you plan it meshes nicely. Blue Dot is where you would put it. Though i would use it for production of troops. Your two choices for your heavy production would share way too many tiles with your other city. You have plenty of farmable land so it's not like they would be wasted. The only problem with my choice is the three gorges dam/levee is not available there without a riverside location. You can build that in Blue dot if you need to, but with few production cities on this landmass, i would worry about it for a larger landmass with more cities. Your commerce cities should be in the heavily grassland areas to the south.
With minimal hills for your production cities, i would say Metal casting then guilds should be a priority after CoL for caste system. With guilds and caste system you get 4hammers for a plains workshop. That is the same as a mined plains hill.
Also, I would have used the first 2 fishing boats for the clams, since they give you twice the commerce. You are commerce poor this early and you will need it to since you are settling two production cities first.
I would settle redfirst and get that stone going and start the pyramids ASAP, Research sailing while you build the setteler for blue dot. lighthouse/greatlighthouse is the build order for blue dot. The great lighthouse is a HUGE wonder for maps like this. With a harbor and the great lighthouse coastal cities pay for themselves or come very close to it.
While the wonders build, settle 1 commerce coastal city north of red dot then one science city south of blue dot. All the while teching your way to CoL for caste system. Get a boat out there trying to meet new civs. If you can open up some overseas foreighn trade routes with the Great lighthouse you will have plenty of cash. Once you have CoL, either tech towards MC(possible colossus) for the workshops. and then either Lit or drama. If you want the great library in your capital, you should consider putting workshops on the floodplains temporarily. That is one advantage of the SE, you can change the tiles unlike towns which you have to keep as tiles and work forever.

I don't like that red dot at all. Athens has too much food, and Redville none worth speaking of. Either two tiles north, to use the floodplains that Athens won't need for many years, or two tiles east, where it will later be able to make good use of the river (blue dot moving one tile east to the hill in the latter case).

I don't like that red dot at all. Athens has too much food, and Redville none worth speaking of. Either two tiles north, to use the floodplains that Athens won't need for many years, or two tiles east, where it will later be able to make good use of the river (blue dot moving one tile east to the hill in the latter case).

You gain one floodplain and lose two grassland tiles and have one less grass land hill to work because you are settled on it. At biology that leaves you one less food per turn at a stage where that can mean woking that grassland hill.

You gain one floodplain and lose two grassland tiles and have one less grass land hill to work because you are settled on it. At biology that leaves you one less food per turn at a stage where that can mean woking that grassland hill.

Biology is 4000 years away, are you kidding me?

All three moves put cities on plains hills, not grassland hills, with corresponding changes in the floodplain counts.

Biology is 4000 years away, are you kidding me?

All three moves put cities on plains hills, not grassland hills, with corresponding changes in the floodplain counts.

Sorry. I misrwad your statement, I thought you said one north

I don't like that red dot at all. Athens has too much food, and Redville none worth speaking of. Either two tiles north, to use the floodplains that Athens won't need for many years, or two tiles east, where it will later be able to make good use of the river (blue dot moving one tile east to the hill in the latter case).

Two tiles north were my thoughts exactly.