SSE / WE for Ramesses II [BtS]

Level:: Immortal
Speed:: Normal

Yes, I’ve done immortal before with Ramesses, but I never did get around to doing him specifically for BtS. So, before the year comes to its close, I ended up running through a game of him.

So here we go, no lightbulbing…

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/init.jpg


Some Past Walkthroughs indexed here::

BtS
The Insane Walkthrough (HC) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=243033)
The Insane Walkthrough (Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253310)

WarLords
The Insane Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=233901&highlight=insane+walkthrough)
The Unreal Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231469)
The Unreal Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234441&highlight=unreal)
The Impossible Walkthrough (Ramesses) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=231222)
The Impossible Walkthrough (Part II Ghandi) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232798)

4000 BC
First things first, we are going to get a worker out. Ramesses starts with agriculture so I want to get that corn up right away. And once that is done I’ll make roads while I wait for mining-bronzeworking to be researched. Though I’ll mine any hills first before making roads depending if they are treeless. We’ll just have to wait until this border pops to see.

Note. Lots of extra sight for us here, due to barbarian starting off on a hill.

We moved into that hut and popped mysticism. While most people would go ‘Ughh, I wanted a good tech!’ I can’t complain here. We are going to get Stonehenge (or at least try) this shaves off a lot of research time, which will allow us to hit other important techs faster.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/4000bc.jpg

3720 BC
We met Isabella while we were off searching for stone and marble.

* Important! Search for stone and marble right off the bat. Stone is priority, and if we simply can’t find any at least try to get marble.
-ni

3640 BC
We now ran into Justinian I
-ni


2160 BC
TGW is ready for completion. And our happiness is already capped at 5. It will have to wait until the pyramids are built to get any better. Though if I were charismatic we’d have another +2 ceiling height right now.

P.S. Looks like I forgot to take a shot of when Stonehenge was built, but as evident in the city view, we have it so no worries.

Note: We found stone down south and were lucky to have a river going down there as well (saves us some more time with roads). To get it ASAP we had chop rushed a settler and settled directly on top of the stone to save us time from building a quarry.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/2160bc.jpg

1480 BC
And here we go, the mighty pyramids!

Note. While we do have an unhappy citizen, and some can argue it’s wastage, we will instantly go to Rep next turn and fix that.

Writing is being researched now and we will time the Oracle to be finished as soon as writing is completed. Now we just have to hope that the AI doesn’t beat us to it, but we do have an ok start so I’m not too worried.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1480bc.jpg

1400 BC
Great Spy arrives.
-ni

1160 BC
Our oracle is done and time to chose which tech!

I love it, we now get a jump to mathematics for my extra 50% chop bonus, and rest assured no AI got a tech lead on us. We will generally hold the tech lead from here on, or close to it until the very end stages.

Now, immediately switch research to aethetics, for TGL.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1160bc.jpg

1120 BC
Random event, slave revolt in capital.. argggggh!
-ni

875 BC
Time to settle our third city, (which unlocks another wonder btw). I’m putting it here because I WANT THAT MARBLE! The cows are nice, but can wait.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/875bc.jpg

800 BC
The hanging gardens will be ready for completion this turn, and a little speedy help came from some more forested hills that are now turned into mines.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/800bc.jpg

625 BC
Popped great prophet.
-ni

450 BC
Now this you don’t see every immortal game. We have the Temple of Artemis ready! I actually love this one. It was a little bit of a gambit, but it worked. Never underestimate the power of marble!

Of course, we just have to sweat out the fact that we may lose on a wonder tie (Murphy’s law) but we’ll probably be ok here.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/450bc.jpg

350 BC
Parthenon ready for completion. Boy, are we running all over the AI’s or what? Combo of Marble, Trees, and Mathematics is all working in harmony right now.
And as soon as literature is done we’ll start on TGL. Our mini-library is already built so there will be no lag-time there either.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/350bc.jpg

250 BC
City #4 is ready for settling.

I am choosing this spot because there is a fish resource nearby. I may farm this area and turn it into a whipping factory for now, and then a drafting factory later on. I’ll continue to scout deeper and see where else we may expand.

Note: Because our building resources have been taken care of, now I will switch to looking for iron or copper sources.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/250bc.jpg

225 BC
Finally we are able to convert to Buddhism for Isabella. And we have a little problem, we are wedged between two different religious factions. However, since Isabella is a religious nut, we will side with her. And while we could just stay out of it, the fact that I will have Isabella mad at me for boxing her in, makes me want to convert to her just to make sure I don’t run into any nasty surprises.
-ni

175 BC
The Great Library is ready for completion!

Note: Happiness cap is maxed at 8. We’ll wait for Buddism to spread to our capital for more. Luckily, Isabella will probably spread that to us herself. She’s so dumb she doesn’t understand she is doing US a favour here.

But that’s the AI, it’s stupid.

Also, we pop a free Great Merchant. Thanks to the ToA.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/175bc.jpg

1
The first AD year. 1 AD actually.

And perfect timing to found yet another city. I’ve found that copper resource, and pigs to boot. Time to grab some more land here while we can.

I also opened borders with both religious factions. Trying to maximize trade-routes with ToA because of the extra bonuses.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1.jpg

50
Alright, maybe I shouldn’t be going overboard so much. But the AI seems to be a bit slow always in getting Statue of Zeus. And while it contributes artist pollution, I just seem to be a sucker for Great People points. Argggg…

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/50.jpg

100
Pop another great merchant.
-ni


375
I was not sure if I’d get this or not, but we ended up nabbing it anyhow. The S. Paya. I love this one too, allows me to swap to FR very early if I want, and also lets me hit OR without having me to trade for such a terrible tech. The whole tech-route in the OR chain is loaded with duds.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/375.jpg

400
Popped Great Engineer.
-ni

560
Egyptian empire holds 1 Million
-ni

700
Pop Great Spy.
-ni

720
AngerWhat?? Is ready for completion.
Next round Civil Service tech is ready to give us another big boost in capital production.

Note: Happiness cap is maxed at 10 now.

Also, the entire list on the left side shows nothing but world wonders. I don’t think the AI has a chance anymore to win this game at this point.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/720.jpg

760
Justinian declares war on me?!

Wtf!

I guess that is expected, due to the religious differences, but come on. I didn’t do anything else to upset him! And I sort of thought him being a non-aggressive player, would be a bit nicer. But as you can see, I haven’t had much chance to get familiar with these new BtS players. Oh well…. Time to bribe my religious sister fanatic into war too then!


http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/760.jpg


Now that’s weird! She won’t refuse to stop trading with Justinian, yet she has no problem with me bribing her into war with him. Which ironically, would stop trading with him, now wouldn’t it?

Stupid AI!

840
A Great General arrives from all this pointless warring.

Actually Justinian is a when it comes to war tactics. After he declared war on me, instead of beelining for one of my under-defended cities, he got lured into attacking a stack of my axemen which were on a forested hill.

LMAO!! LMAO!! LMAO!!

Stupid, stupid, stupid AI…
-ni

980
Popped Great Merchant.
-ni

1010
Yes, yes, I know we are at war but… I must build the Univeristy of Stinker. Especially now that I have a religion going on! Even though it’s costing us more problems than it is worth at the moment.

Oh wait a moment, the stinker is actually completed at the end of this turn already.

Note: last tech until liberalism stretch.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1010.jpg

1030
Ok Justinian, take THAT! Originally this was a barb city I tried to attack with axemen, but Justin beat me to it. And it was right after that, he got the jump on me and attacked me. And it was my axemen in this spot that I put on that forested hill in the north which he was dumb enough to go after.

And now, a few rounds later, and his STUPIDITY of taking what’s left of his army to attack a culture city I had (ON A HILL) with a stack inside…. Totally crippling him, has now cost him his own city AND ARMY.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1030.jpg

1070
Priest Economy! Just about 200 GP’s per turn here, that’s going to get a lot of great persons. I could run scientists to hit liberalism faster, but we are ahead of tech on this continent, and I really want some production bonuses for later.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1070.jpg

1080
We popped a great prophet. Wow, can you imagine that? I was hoping for a great artist or something! What BS!
-ni

1090
Alright, Alright, we gave 2 techs and sued for peace finally. In the end result, we gained a city.

Unfortunately, this backstabbing (can you call it that?) cost us the liberalism race. I couldn’t focus on my science as much because I had to do a lot of whipping (from my drafting city) and everything else had to mostly focus on attack & defense. But what can you do, in times of war you have your priorities. The good news is we were able to actually build a wonder or two while still fighting that early war.

Note: Since we missed the liberalism race, this is where 99% of players just get up and give up on Immortal. However, I said before that I really don’t think the AI has a chance anymore in this game, and I believe it, though I admit things are harder now.
-ni

1120
The end of the world in the North. One barbarian outpost left, and finally we take it NOW!

Of course our economy is hurting now, we are down to 0% research and are actually on strike right now. But note even still, we are zooming through education tech due to our hard work of specialists.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1120.jpg

1140
Popped Great Scientist, now it is time to run an (academy). I was expecting to get more scientists earlier and have the academy up and running faster (due to TGL), etc, but things were a bit delayed. We simply got everyone else from great merchants to spies instead. That’s how it goes sometimes, and why settling your first GS instead of running an academy is not always optimal, even when on paper the theory is sound.
-ni

1180
Woohoo!!

I don’t get this every day. One of the benefits of taking religious sides I guess.

Notes: This city was originally founded by Isabella. Then ended up being taken over by Justinian.

However, it was going into revolt because of my culture pouring from my capital. It is possible that Isabella thought the city was rightfully mine before attacked by Justinian, because it most likely had more than 50% of my culture in it, despite she founded it?

Or did I actually get it to flip to me just before Justinian waltzed right in? I don’t remember that, but it’s possible.

Whatever the case was, I am now up another city, I can’t complain.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1180.jpg

1200
Popped another great spy.
-ni


1210
2 Million strong.


1220
Ok, lets found yet ANOTHER city. Finally we have some iron resource, time to grab it!

Next, I’ll try to get a chain-irrigation of farms to get this poor growth city going.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1220.jpg

1260
Popped a great merchant.
-ni

1340
Saladin greets us for the first time. I actually love his guy now, but used to hate him in vanilla.
-ni

1420
We met the Holy Roman Empire. What’s his name.. chara… chagguannay… charachole? Char….. character…something. I always hate his long hard-to-spell name.

Also, we popped a great prophet.
-ni

1430
We holds 5 Million strong.
-ni

1505
Met Tokugawa
-ni

1510
Entered Industrial Era.
-ni

1530
Met Zara
I don’t know how he behaves very well, so I’m a bit worried if that means I have to watch out for some run-away culture victory ATM.
-ni

1560
Popped great scientist.
-ni

1600
We now hold 10 Million.
-ni

1640
Christ!!

What a sham! We had broadway ready to go at the end of this turn, and yet Zara beat us to it! I guess we are learning how he behaves (the HARD way)!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1640.jpg

1695
Popped the mighty and overpowered great-artist.

Well that’s game! There’s simply no way anyone can do anything against such a monsterly & owerpowered great-person. So I should probably just quit the game right now as the rest will be a boring result of me just steamrolling over both continents with this GA.

Oh well, I guess you want to see for entertainment value what happens. Alright, I’ll continue. For now I’ll keep the mighty GA in reserve until later when I need to unleash a big can-of-whoopass.
-ni

1700
RocknRoll is ready for dismantling. Umm, completion.

Right now, while I’m busy having all my other cities simply crank out cavalry. And before that I had them cranking out curaissers (SP?). As you will notice, my science spending is put on 0% again. That’s ok, as you can see, we will have Mass Media researched not too long from now, and we are actually the only one’s who are already up to radio tech.

Culture is on 20% to keep my capital guys happy and building wonders as fast as they can. I’m actually NOT using OR right now, because I have theocracy running for my military units in all my other cities.

All the older curaissers (wtf, how do you spell it?) are being upgraded each round to cavalry with my cash that I’m stockpiling.

Eventually, I plan to push into Justinian for some revenge to make us even.

Ok, ok, it won’t be even, I want a bit more than my fair share…

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1700.jpg

1720
Cristo is ready for completion. Now you may ask isn’t this weird, as I am spiritual to begin with. Well that is true, BUT I want to deny the benefits of this to non-spiritual civs.

BTW, there is a 1-turn cool-down period added to the Cristo in the latest patch. This penalizes the spiritual civs even MORE than they were at the beginning of BtS.

It looks as though Firaxis discovered what looks like a mistake, that really wasn’t, and then tried to fix it, which now made it even more broken.

Frustrating bias like this makes me wonder why can’t they go and penalize stuff like financial leaders with some other wonders that duplicate traits?


http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1720.jpg

1740
Attack!!!!

Alright, first some quick explanation. Physics is a great tech now, because you can actually use it to make something! We made a lot of airships. Now, unfortunately you can’t put more than 4 in a city (yeah, I know it’s a dumb rule, but that’s how it is). So… the solution is to put 4 in each city that is in reach of any available targets, and that’s exactly what we did.

Then we made a lot TON of cavalry from both production and upgrades of older units. Stockpile them up and get ready for attack.

Don’t forget the spies! We cranked up the spy points vs Justinian and have at least one city (often two) who only crank out spies all game, or at least a big portion of it.

Now just remember! There is a weird bug in this new patch (or I’ve been told this is a bug). When you declare war, your spies will be removed out of the enemy’s territory. So, the only work around you can do is cause city revolts FIRST, and THEN declare war. And hope you have some sort of spring board that lets you attack the enemy city on the same turn you declare war.

And as evident, we did that here.

Note: We have just caused the revolt, and we have a stack here of 40 cavalry alone. But there are more. More are coming in the back, and more will continue to be created by our cities. And our cities are loaded with blimps. Now pummel the city with airships, and CHARGE in with an attack.

Due to the stupidity of the AI, it likes to stockpile a gigantic army in areas that border you. This is it’s downfall as we will cripple it’s entire army in one gigantic blow this turn.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1740.jpg

*** And…. We gained a great general after this big attack commenced.

--

Now, let me spare you a TON of details and shots.

Lets just sum things up and say, for a while after this, all we do is ---

ATTACK, ATTACK!!

And while we have a few cool-down periods in new cities for cavalry to heal, fresh reserves continue on and continue to stock pile as we…

ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!

Always using our spies and air-ships to remove defenses and soften up troops.

And don’t forget to…

ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!


BTW, did I forget to mention that you should ATTACK?

1745
Eiffel Tower ready for completion. Don’t worry, the other cities know to attack still.

Notes: I replaced some mines with windmills here for a change. Unfortunately the growth comes at a cost. A lot of extra unhappiness which forces us to crank the slider up, especially during times of war and anti-emancipation.

That maybe wasn’t such a good plan after all.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1745.jpg

1750
We gained another GG.

And don’t forget to…

ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!

ATTACK, ATTACK!!
-ni

1780
We are told we are now 20 Million strong.
-ni

1785
I won an Apostolic palace vote despite it was 2 vs 1!

whoopie….
-ni

1790
Hollywood is ready for completion this turn. No it isn’t. Umm, actually yes it is.

And boy do I need this one. My people are getting very unhappy at this point.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1790.jpg


--

Wow, what a mess that’s going on in the world today. And to think I was asked if I wanted to join in a war vs Isabella too!? Why can’t they ever figure out that sometimes I AM TOO BUSY AT THE MOMENT MYSELF!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/mess.jpg

1804
Another Great General is farmed. Geeze, how did that happen?

Don’t forget…
ATTACK, ATTACK!!
ATTACK, ATTACK!!
-ni

1810
The United Plumbers Union is ready for completion. Actually, while I am tempted to just cancel this at the last moment to gain extra gold, it’s actually ok to complete this building. Our population is at the point where we are assured of getting on the vote list anyhow. This means we don’t have to worry about too much a lopsided vote. And I am just a sucker for great person points!

Note: science still on 0% but we’re doing ok. Excess gold is now poured into the spy system. I’m simply taking city by city so rapidly I need to keep enough revolt points getting through.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1810.jpg

1812
Another great artist arrives.
OMG! That’s so overkill. It’s like, starting off with two modern armours in 4000 BC. No one can counter TWO great artists!
-ni

1816
Ok, I FINALLY took Justinian’s capital. But I’m not done with him yet. Now I’m off to take his holy city, and I wont dare let up until we get him down to 1 last city.
-ni

1828
Thebes reaches legendary culture. (surprised?)
-ni

1830
Alright, all in a day’s work, Capitulation!

While one may argue we should simply wipe him off the face of the map, I’m not sure of this. If we capitulate him, we get a free corporation tech, which is something. The map and extra gold are of no real concern. But it is interesting to note that each vassal WILL gain us a free +1 happiness in EVERY one of our cities. That’s half the value of a Charismatic trait. Also, since culture issues with vassals are not as bad as they once were, I’m willing to vassal him here. But no one has to agree with this.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1830.jpg

1834
Ok, I decided to build a corporation, the Civilized Jewlers. Maybe I’m just paranoid, but I didn’t want to risk an AI building this and getting some last second culture victory on me through it. Keep in mind, I plan to keep running State Property, so this corps will be useless to me, but that’s ok. I just wanted to prevent another AI from getting it.

Besides, it was just a GA (gasp!)
-ni

1846
Declare war on Isabella and attack attack attack!
Also gained ANOTHER GG from this.

BTW, who cares if she has tones of infantry (and marines coming). I have so much cavalry I can slam them all into her and wear her down through attrition.

And of course, my airships and spies can still do their nasty work.

Note: I saw a transport new one of my cities from Charlemagne. While he was probably just scouting, it was possible he could have been loaded up and tempted to hit a very weak (alright, vacant) city of mine along the coast. So, just to be safe I bribed him to go to war to war with Zara.
-ni

1858
The end of Isabella.

Unfortunately, Isabella was not yet willing to talk to us, so instead of waiting around for her to vassal to us, I decided it was best just to wipe her last city off the map. (I mean capture it).

In total, there were 2 Holy cities she had, as well as the Apostolic palace. Here’s a shot of her Mahabodhi city just before I finished her off.

Later on I would put my Oxford in here.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1858.jpg

1868
Charlemagne capits to Zara (. .. .. .. .!)

I was trying to avoid that, I even gifted him my airships and tried to get all my ridiculous amounts of cavalry but it was taking too long to build transports and send them over the distance.

Popped Great Prophet

-ni

1876
Zara completed Internet (. .. .. .. .!)
Argghhh!! Another setback that spoils my plans.
-ni

1988
Stole Biology through a spy.
It should be noted that Zara built a city on my continent to gain a resource. It was oil so that is understandable, but basically this allows me to use my spies quickly and cheaply against the top running civilization.
Obviously, I am putting 100% spy focus on him.
-ni

1901
I completed Manhattan project. This almost was an accident, as it’s just fine to let the AI build it for you instead, so THEY waste time and resources doing it. But since I can start building nukes right away, why not.
-ni

1907
A rather embarrassing shot. I was so busy with all the attacks and other city managements going on that I failed to notice that Heliopolis really is still a poor city. Somehow my chain-irrigation got broken and it’s only at pop 7.

Note, I built the NP here and am running a half spy/half beaker economy.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1907.jpg

1914
Popped Great Merchant.
-ni

1929
Stole Super Conductors.
-ni

1934
Started Golden Age with the remaining GA.
What the hell, after super conductors we have a lot of parts we can make, might as well get them all out in a quick shot. Zara is also worrying me how he’s getting so advanced and rolling along in space parts.
-ni


1937
Popped Great Engineer?
I can either save him until I pop another guy, or put him to work. I decided to just absorb him into my capital. Though it probably wasn’t the best option at this stage. I mis-calculated some timing issues and didn’t expect the space race to continue by the time another would pop.
-ni

1941
Popped another Great Prophet (and he wants me to lightbuilb theology!?) LMAO!

Now, if I had kept that GE, I could have started yet another Golden Age. Oh well, murphy’s law is that I would have popped another GE instead and then have been behind anyhow on both sides.
-ni



1947

victory.jpg

Victory screen look. Despite Zara had everything but the SS engine completed, we sabotaged the hell out of him so bad, that now Saladin has taken the lead for the AI. But he just doesn’t have a hope vs us now.

Instead of sticking around to complete the second SS engine, I’m going to launch… now!

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/victory.jpg


12 turns to victory!

Up.. Up.. and away.

The rest of our cities are mostly working on commerce, to pour into spy points. And we are sabotaging Zara’s own space race into the stone age. He can’t build parts as fast as we are destroying them.

Note: Also we had been running some anti-espionage missions on both Zara and Justinian. This is because we want to make it expensive as hell for any of them to sabotague us. And since we are making 3168 spy points a turn, surely we can afford 150-200 pts every 10 turns.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1947.jpg

1958
A last look at our settled specialists..
We are going to be done a few turns before yet another one was bound to pop, and our NP city also is past halfway to getting one to pop as well.

Also note, 5 military instructors! Usually I don’t go so over-board on my warring, but there’s always something new to do.

http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/1958.jpg

1959
WTF! Zara, declares war on me!? LOL, but the game is already over so I can’t even do anything. A bit too late there Zara.

Did I mention the AI is stupid?

BTW, he got his vassals Characoalallapalozuza, and Togu against me, but I also had a defence pact with Saladin, so poor Saladin was going to take the brunt of it, LOL.

And interestingly enough, I was just thinking, you know what, since it’s the end of the game anyway, why don’t I nuke the hell out of that little city Zara founded in the top left of my continent. However, when the space race says 1 turn left, they really mean 0 turns (this is a change I have to get used to!)

So I apologize for no final nuke shots to get. Yes, I stockpiled a bunch of ICBMs, and had modern armour abouts, but just never got the chance (or had the need) to use them.

Maybe next time.

-ni



----



http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/top_cities.jpg

Once again, I’ve never failed to hit top city.

All in a day’s work (2 days when including writeup).


GG…

Of course, we just have to sweat out the fact that we may lose on a wonder tie (Murphy’s law)

Or you could realize that the AI can't construct anything during your turn. If they haven't built it by the time your turn starts (check the wonder screen), they aren't going to build it before your turn ends. Since the production phase happens at the end of your turn, they aren't going to beat you.

I find it very interesting that over time your demonstration games have evolved. Initially you settled very, VERY, few cities. Now you actually build a small empire before going to war.

I'm curious, was it an increase in non-wonder production that caused you to start this? Since it allows you to focus the capitol more precisely on wonders, and they are what drive your economy, that would make perfect sense to me.

-abs

You got Justinian's character wrong, he's just as much a religious nut as Isabella and very aggressive about it, with those two in a cage you always have some entertainment. When I saw you ended up between them I knew you'd be warring more than usual. :)

Or you could realize that the AI can't construct anything during your turn. If they haven't built it by the time your turn starts (check the wonder screen), they aren't going to build it before your turn ends. Since the production phase happens at the end of your turn, they aren't going to beat you.

That was not so in Warlords. I lost more than my fair share of wonders due to ties. So either this is a new change (which I'd like to see mentioned somewhere) or we are still going by turn-order. And that over-flow explanation is pure bogus.

You got Justinian's character wrong, he's just as much a religious nut as Isabella and very aggressive about it, with those two in a cage you always have some entertainment. When I saw you ended up between them I knew you'd be warring more than usual. :)

Well Geeze. NOW you tell me!

Is there some sort of updated leader personality list somewhere? Seems just as I'm getting them all figured out, then out comes a whole new expansion pack.

Is there some sort of updated leader personality list somewhere? Seems just as I'm getting them all figured out, then out comes a whole new expansion pack.

Here you go: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=236346

That was not so in Warlords. I lost more than my fair share of wonders due to ties.

We've had this discussion already. You were challenged to provide a save that demonstrated the behavior of a tie. That challenge is still unanswered.

I don't expect that you can answer it, because the code logic doesn't support that model. The 2.13 code doesn't support the theory at all, which leaves only the question of whether city production was dramatically different pre-patch. That strikes me as highly unlikely, but you could demonstrate that it is so by re-installing warlords from an unpatched CD, and comparing the code there.

Gliese, thanks for the link, I'll try to read over the pdf shortly.

VoU..

I re-read your other quote about checking the wonder screen. Now this seems to be a terrible implementation for a GUI. Wasn't the whole point of the message indicator supposed to inform us if the wonder has been completed yet or not?

Why are we supposed to keep checking two screens deep like a maniac each turn just to watch out for this? Come to think of it, when we used to be notified of the wonders being completed in far off lands, why were we still able to work on it for another round? Bug? Or some other reason.

Anyhow, here is a save from one of my deity games. Please note the following.

* Never did I receive any message from the system that the Pyramids have been completed anywhere. This is standard procure (unless they changed it) to inform us of this event.

* We have enough regular hammers to complete the Pyramids by the end of the turn.

* Just incase there is any shred of evidence to this over-flow determiner, we can still whip this (despite we really don't need to), just to be super duper safe.

----

No matter what we do this turn, and yes the pyramids are completed by us 100% by the end of this turn, we will simply find out NEXT turn that we lost to a tie.

But alas, when we do check the wonder screen, DESPITE NO NOTIFICATION WAS SENT TO US, there it is, secretly hiding along with ours on the list. BOTH of our wonders are listed on the top of the wonderlist. Very bizzare and doesn't quite make sense.

Anyhow, again I don't understand why:

A. I was given no notification
B. I was still allowed to build this

Something needs to be fixed here....

Lost Tie (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/AutoSave_BC-0775.CivBeyondSwordSave)

obsolete, first let me just say I have enjoyed your walkthroughs very much, and learned many things from you. I am kind of a builder at heart, your wonderspamming at higher diff levels inspired me and I've had tons of fun with it.

As far as your tie on the wonder, I've often seen this happen in my games. If you look in your event log you will see that the mids in that save were built in 800BC. The message does not appear until the next turn, so the game does allow you to waste another turn building a wonder that is taken by an opponent. I'd like to look into it more and hear from some people exactly why this happens.

Since it says it was completed in 800bc I would assume you would need to go 1 turn prior to 800 to complete it yourself with a rush. So really, it is not a tie, it's that you didnt get the message that they beat you until later, allowing you to waste 1 or 2 turns before the conversion into gold?

VoU..

I re-read your other quote about checking the wonder screen. Now this seems to be a terrible implementation for a GUI. Wasn't the whole point of the message indicator supposed to inform us if the wonder has been completed yet or not?

What, you want me to defend the implementation? Sorry, I'm not going to volunteer for that one.

I notice that you completed Mathematics on the same turn that the Pyramids were finished, which makes me wonder if the splash screen is preventing the message from being shown. Somebody interested in exploring this further (which is to say, not me) might examine that section of the code.

My guess is that the wonder cash in code is supposed to be at the end of turn anyway (for some other reason that I don't immediately see), and the developers never considered that it should also be placed at the beginning of the turn. Hard to say. So much of the game performance is tied up in the graphics that logic optimizations are sort of haphazard (by which I mean absent).

I agree with you that the current implementation doesn't appear to offer any gameplay benefits.

Edit: I just realized that maybe you want to play that game out even tho you lost the Mids.. so put in spoiler tags some future info on that Indian Lost tie save you posted obso with a worldbuilder test on tied wonders.

Ok I played some more and the message for wonders built does not show up until the next turn. So in the above Ghandi save Hanging Gardens is built in 650bc but you do not see that in the event log nor onscreen until 625bc. btw I had no tech or city popups at the beginning of the turn to obscure or bug the event log text scrolling or anything, it didn't list in events tab either so.

I then went back to 650 again, entered the worldbuilder, gave Delhi an aqueduct and a Great Engineer. I hurried Hanging Gardens in 650, showing 1turn left in 650, and in 625 I built it in Delhi. So yea, it seems that the human Does win out on a tie.

It seems that since the AI is going after you, the events cannot be reported until your next turn? Can/Should this be changed? It may be intended.

Well done.
A couple questions:
Why did you have to give Justinian two techs to end a war earlier? Didn't you take one of his cities and bring Izzy in? Why wasn't he begging for peace? The answer may be related to my next question:

What is your power graph like in the early game? I noticed you using war chariots in like 1150 AD. I normally play on Aggressive AI so maybe this is not as much of a problem with default aggressiveness.

Why put Oxford in Madrid? I couldn't really see the whole city but with a +19 shrine I would normally think wall street, no?

Thanks and good win.

JBossch, I'm not sure on why Justinian was so against peace. I really am not familiar with him so I can't say. Just I know he jumped on me, and then wouldn't give up for peace unless I gave him TWO major techs. I suppose, even with 2 against 1 he thought he was still stronger than me. Or maybe the AI doesn't even factor in allies of the human player? I noticed them before not making any sense. E.G. You can't bribe an AI to attack a stronger one, but if he vassaled a wimp, you can bribe him to attack the wimp, despite this is the exact same thing as bribing him to attack the stronger one O_o

Anyhow, If you look at all those cities of his I finally took, it would seem he probably had more cities than me and isabella perhaps put together, or was close there, and perhaps that is part to do with the equation.

I believe on Immortal each AI starts off with 3 settlers, 6 archers, and 1 worker. So he probably had quite a few cities up by that point.

I boxed in Isabella, so she really never got far at all. As evident at the point I declared war on her, she only had 5 cities total.

My power graph was probably weak as hell at the beginning of the war, it always is going to be in that spot. And those horse charriots were mostly due to emergency whipping.

And for the Oxford, I am experimenting with putting in my capital, or not. I simply can't put every national wonder in my capital so that's the problem. And the +19 shrine will also benefit through Oxford (assuming use of the slider). Though I have to admit a lot of times I'll put science beaker spending to 0 for long stretches of the game.

To set some facts straight:
the Immortal AI s (BtS 3.13) starts with 1 worker, 3 archers and 1 scout (and the usual 1 settler), according to the XML file. Only on Deity it gets a free settler, and even then it's only one extra.

The shrine income will never work towards your research. Shrine income is cash, just like what you get from merchants and some super specialists, not raw commerce. When a city gets a large part of its income from a shrine, it may be a great candidate for Wall Street, but not for Oxford.

Thanks for the writeup, it sure is impressive how powerful wonders can be, and how it is possible to get a large amount even on Immortal.

I've noticed that the GUI tends to scroll through the event channel fairly slowly, and I've been half-way through a turn (or more) and 'new' events are still being reported. (but they're not really new)

Is it possible that the "wonder has been built" message was deep in the queue, and y'all just blitz through the turn before it appears? (I can't currently test the save)

MyOtherName, I know exactly what you mean about it scrolling slowly, this is not the case however. When testing it I made very sure that the event scrolling was completed. The event does Not list in the Event Log or the scrolling until the turn after the wonder was built. As I said I believe that it must be this way because of turn order, which is also probably why the human player will win a Tie with the AI. Obso's tie was not actually a tie, the AI completed it the turn prior (in that one example save). It's not too hard to test with worldbuilder, but I would sure love if someone with more knowledge of the code to chime in ;)

To set some facts straight:
the Immortal AI s (BtS 3.13) starts with 1 worker, 3 archers and 1 scout (and the usual 1 settler), according to the XML file. Only on Deity it gets a free settler, and even then it's only one extra.

The shrine income will never work towards your research. Shrine income is cash, just like what you get from merchants and some super specialists, not raw commerce. When a city gets a large part of its income from a shrine, it may be a great candidate for Wall Street, but not for Oxford.

Thanks for the writeup, it sure is impressive how powerful wonders can be, and how it is possible to get a large amount even on Immortal.

It is possible I played too much deity in the past and am too used to such lopsidedness. However, even on Immortal it seemed damn positive this was the case, when doing a very early imp rush. No mater how fast you are there always seems to be at least 3 cities awaiting with at least 2 archers apiece.

Anyhow, I just did a quick test in worldbuilder, seems the 3 archers 1 setter is right, but my civs were showing 2 scouts not just one (at least in the latest patch). I suppose it could be I just happened to randomly draw AI's that came with an extra scout. Does Peter start off with an extra scout?

--

As for the Shrine income not counting towards research, maybe you got something there too.

Assuming if a city only has 2 commerce. Now I know that if you have a library and university, thats +25% + 25%.

Lets say you have your slider up to 100%

You now get 100% x 2 commerce = 2 beakers
(25% +25%) x commerce = 1 breaker
2 + 1 = 3 so we get 3 beakers total.

Now when I put in Oxford, it changes to..
(25% + 25% + 100%) x commerce = 3 breakers
2 + 3 = 5 Beakers.

The question is, how do shrines factor in? I suppose because they are GOLD and not Commerce there could be differences and you may be right. I normally don't build shrines so haven't paid too close to numbers. But if what you say is true, then I really hate shrines even more now!

There used to be a lot of post-game (walkthroughs) around the forums and I remember people constantly wanting to put Oxford in their shrine cities. I suppose either they also over-looked the commerce vs gold output of the city, or there have been changes since then. Probably the former as that would be a pretty big change?

Anyhow, that's what I get for reading silly prince games, and now I'm guilty of doing the same crime.

I've noticed that the GUI tends to scroll through the event channel fairly slowly, and I've been half-way through a turn (or more) and 'new' events are still being reported. (but they're not really new)

Is it possible that the "wonder has been built" message was deep in the queue, and y'all just blitz through the turn before it appears? (I can't currently test the save)

I remember when this was a BIG problem in Vanilla. It was not too uncommon to get messages after 3 turns, even 5 turns have gone by! I even made posts complaining about that.

That was very annoying but by the time we got into Warlords the event threading was supposed to have been fixed up quite a bit.

Save Points::

Initial (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave)
Free City (AP) (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/free%20city.CivBeyondSwordSave)
Capitulation (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/capit_just.CivBeyondSwordSave)
Launch (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/launch.CivBeyondSwordSave)
1956 (http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/AutoSave_AD-1956.CivBeyondSwordSave)

Special Features::


"No peace unless you pay me off BIG..."
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/no_peace.jpg


Just another day of stealing techs... Erm, I mean sabotaging.
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/stealing.jpg


And this is how may times I often had to try...
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/fails.jpg


This trade is such a scam...
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/trade_scam.jpg


We are a go, at 100%...
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/100%25.jpg


Score Graph.
http://www.highpoly3d.com/civ/proof8/graph.jpg

About the scouts you're mentioning...I suppose the XML data is what the AI gets *in addition* to the normal stuff.

All AIs start with Hunting anyway on Immortal, so they'll get one scout just like the human when he starts with hunting, and a settler of course. Add to that the worker, 3 archers and extra scout from difficulty, and you get what you've been observing.

About the shrine, don't forget that you can still multiply its income with market/grocer/bank/wall street! If you get all of these in place, that's 3x as much as the basic income, and independent of the slider, no need for science multipliers too!
Later, you can found corps in that city as well (if you want to found any), and you will have lots of guaranteed money, no matter your science/culture/espionage slider setting!

Obsolete,

your SSE/WE kind of playing is indeed very strong. I myself am a Immortal level player too, only I play with AggAI turned on (and recently won my first vic yey!). I really wonder if this strategy can work with AggAI on, since you really seem to lack on your militairy early on (a single warrior in your capital!) and the AI just seems to jump right on you in such cases.

So my question is, will this strategy work for instance with AggAI on, on a huge fractal map, with 15 AI's?

Cheers

Will it work on a huge fractal map? I haven't played HUGE maps before, but don't plan to as larger maps really slow down this comp, even with the improved graphics card. I can't say I'm experienced enough to say yes or no. But probably those who do answere it aren't experienced enough either.

As for my warrior in the capital, he often is there till the end of the space race. Well, actually the replacement. Most my early warriors seem to get pounced on by lions & other junk then dissapear off to the land of Valhalla. But such is the risk one must pay in order to scout for good resources early.

Adenum::

Some last thoughts to close this story. I originally found some stone down south from my capital, the problem was it was too far away to ever get the borders to pop, so I had to rush a settler down there. To make things easy, I dropped down right ontop of it, and had two rivers combine through a river-side tile to connect to my capital (though I had to road ONE tile).

Also having Isabella build the A. Palace turned out great. I was able to use the extra hammer bonuses, and it gave me a free city as well.

One big blunder early was I swapped to pacifism, yet was in the middle of a war with 2 big stacks. I sort of didn’t realize how big my stacks were, and while I knew I was paying extra maintenance in that civic, it wasn’t until I hit revolution that I really thought (oh boy I shouldn’t have done this). Oh well, lesson learned, always check your F2 screen before you do anything. This one ran me into bankruptcy pretty quick.

Also, not once did I lightbulb. And while some critics may say it’s a crazy gamble cause if you lose the liberalism race it’s over, this game proves other wise. Losing a liberalism race doesn’t mean defeat. In a way I’m glad that happened, because now another “myth” can be disproven.

Also, I didn’t build cottages EXCEPT for the city that was given to me, as it already had one IIRC and it was all grassland with no river so the only thing I could put there was a cottage, my hands were tied. At least it paid for some maintenance of my cavalry later on.

It’s been a while since I’ve done major cavalry battles, but it sure feels good. When my capital wasn’t taking wonders I was making cav with Strength I & II with Pinch despite not running any promotion civics. I have no problems throwing tons of these at stacks of riflemen, infantry, and even marines. Of course, it helps to have air-ships soften up those units before hand. These new ships really are one of my favourite units now, and very good for many different occasions, such as scouting.

Anyhow, this probably is my last walkthrough for 2007. I’m going to get back to other things but will probably keep an eye on the forums for the rest of December (or at least try). Hopefully some others can do some Immortal game WTs (or deity) because we definitely are lacking them.

OBSOLETE, as I have said before I am a fan of your walkthrough's and use your strat when the situation arises. But I would certainly like to see how you would utilize a leader WITHOUT industrious or philosophical, the two strongest for your strategy. Also a coast start would ne nice as I would say more than half of random starts are on a coast. Dropping to difficulty to emperor or Monarchy would be fine by me.

MadScientist, IIRC Obsolete did one costal before... I`m just to lazy to check all his walkthroughs. Anyway, costal is no really strong drawback in my opinion, since there are often loads of seafood, which translate into Specialists, which translate into GPP.

Obsolete, could you tell me your beginning production que. In particular, at which time do you start on your first settler. In my game, I find this point very crucial, as to early, I will fall behind on the Great Wall and the Oracle, and to late, stone / marble is not very usefull anymore.

I believe there was one Ramesses that was 1 off from the coast. And then there was one Ghandi which was right on the cost, and only 1 friggen hill which (Murphies law) had my pigs on it just so I couldn't even put a mine on it. But I was proud to actually turn that one into a powerhouse at the end of things.

Maybe in January or so I will try some experiments with corporations as I've stayed away from them ever since reading some of the negative stuff (but the latest patches seem to fix that). So I'll try another leader then maybe.

As for the production Que, I can't give any solution because it is always dependant on what your starting location is, and your leader. There is a huge difference between your regular 15 turn a worker schedule, and a 12 turn schedule from settling on a hills/plains. And then you have your (did you start with mining) tech to jump to bronzeworking, or not, etc.. etc., etc.

This is a big difference (not to mention outside resources) between making one worker first, or chopping a second, growing a second.. chopping a settler before getting a worker... or chopping wonders before any of them.

You got to be FAST on immortal because 2600 BC if you don't have any barb-hoard defence up, then you're screwed.

I always love the double-worker chop team, but rarely will the cards lay in your lap to pull it off well.

Well, actually I didn`t want the "everything is situational" answer. :-) Of course it is. If I do not get the Great Wall, I will not go on building ToA or something, but some troops, thats clear. I just seem to do wrong in every situation.

I`d still like to know how you did in this specific situation, starting with loads of wood, only one resource to work from the beginning, popping Mytic off the hut.

Obsolete, my main question was, will it work on a huge fractal map with Aggr AI ON? Wonderspamming to me seems easier with it turned off, since you dont have to bother so much with have an army ready for when they come, because with Aggr AI on they will come.

OK, I stand corrected on the coastal start. I would still prefer to see a non industrious or philosphical leader work.

I think starting with neither agriculture, nor mining, nor mystic, nor the wheel is even worse.

edit: This is because I really think the first few turns are that important. And being delayed 8 - 12 turns, having a ind opponent or two out there, could really make you loose all or most of the early wonders, which are really crucial for this WE-

All of these challenges remind me of those 'Will it Blend?' videos (look it up on YouTube). Is it possible to run a WE without any decent starting techs, without philosophical or industrious, on a coastal start, with AggAi on, on a huge map with the maximum number of civs, sandwiched between Monty and Tokugawa, with a continent full of industrious, philosophical uber tech fiends on the other continent? Sure it's possible. Probably not practical. But then again, I think anyone would be pretty hard pressed to use any strategy and come out on top in such a situation at such a high difficulty level.

... that said, I'd love to see it done. :D

I think starting with neither agriculture, nor mining, nor mystic, nor the wheel is even worse.

That leaves you with Fishing and Hunting - which means Greece or Vikings. Out of 24 (or so) civs, that's pretty rare then...

All of these challenges remind me of those 'Will it Blend?' videos (look it up on YouTube). Is it possible to run a WE without any decent starting techs, without philosophical or industrious, on a coastal start, with AggAi on, on a huge map with the maximum number of civs, sandwiched between Monty and Tokugawa, with a continent full of industrious, philosophical uber tech fiends on the other continent? Sure it's possible. Probably not practical. But then again, I think anyone would be pretty hard pressed to use any strategy and come out on top in such a situation at such a high difficulty level.

... that said, I'd love to see it done. :D

Well, thats actually my type of game, only I manage them with different strategies than the WE. I was only asking him if he ever tried it and if it worked out.......

Well, actually I didn`t want the "everything is situational" answer. :-) Of course it is. If I do not get the Great Wall, I will not go on building ToA or something, but some troops, thats clear. I just seem to do wrong in every situation.

I`d still like to know how you did in this specific situation, starting with loads of wood, only one resource to work from the beginning, popping Mytic off the hut.

My first production was a worker. The next one quite possibly started off as a second warrior but the fact I got mysticism so early fubbers that one up. Also depends on if I lost the first warrior or not As one COULD work on SH right away (though almost all production for that will be contributed by trees).

It's a close toss-up here, because with ramesses I have now 2 techs to wait before ironworking. And depending on the turn I found a stone deposite, if it was early enough I would have begun on a second worker as my next item, so that I could hook up that stone ASAP (generally need roads, and long distances eat up too much time with 1 worker). That second worker could be ready around the time ironworking is researched and boom, we take off and gain ground.

I can't remember anymore, because in this case things were so close in chosing the optimal choice.

I do know that before the GW I made a settler rush (would have for sure been chopped). Did I do the settler before or after the oracle? Good question, again that's a 50/50 thing depending on the exact turn I found that first stone deposit. I wouldn't make a settler that early unless I damn well found a good resource to plant him down on.

Also I'm not sure if I used slavery to whip part of the settler or not, again it's hard to remember now. Sometimes you don't get the chance to when chopping (not that it's a bad thing).

For the reccord, beeline to BW and then chop chop and more chop. I hate losing trees that way, but often you must trade some things off to make it work. At least by the time you have the HG you'll have +2+1 health to sort of recouperate from the lack of trees.

I think one big mistake people do is going after masonary first, and then BW. They think to start building the wonders first is superior. But really, going BW slows down your initial start, but you can gain ground from the trees. There are some exceptions though...mostly when you want to keep that quarry boost.

OK, I stand corrected on the coastal start. I would still prefer to see a non industrious or philosphical leader work.

I was thinking on experimenting with going after the new corporations. I may drop down a level or two while I try to figure out how to best use/work them, so I'll pick a non industrious/non-philosophical leader just for you. I just don't know when....

Obsolete, my main question was, will it work on a huge fractal map with Aggr AI ON? Wonderspamming to me seems easier with it turned off, since you dont have to bother so much with have an army ready for when they come, because with Aggr AI on they will come.

I just don't know until I try it out for sure. This new Aggressive AI is bound to have its load of faults to exploit, just like all the other AI's. I suppose my own wonders like TGW rise drastically in value in these scenarios. Even the useless Chicken Pizza now has some protective power.

I didn't see you build Chichen Itza or National Epic in the posts, did you just miss those?

Research seemed very slider dependent late game, capital only had 50 beakers at 0% research. Did you switch off representation? I was trying to figure out why you switched to windmills post-biology, I guess for the GPP.

And small trick, if you don't have small techs like sailing later on, there's a tech multiplier based on opponents who have the tech. So if you're teching a new tech, you can use the overflow for researching a small beaker tech, and the boosted amount will overflow onto the next (new) tech.
So if I have 1k beakers per turn, and sailing costs 200, I might a double research boost from researching sailing. So set the slider to 0 for as long as you want, then last turn, go 100% and get 1600 beakers.

You mean the Chichen Itza is in the capital but not in the write-up? Then yes, I probably forgot to hit the screenshot then, and thus left it out of the write-up. Though the CI is very hard to get in the latest patch it seems.

The NE I put in my capital, but I don't make a big deal about saying what time I built it. It's not a world-wonder so I don't consider it that big of a deal. Though that is not to say that the NE isn't a big deal in itself!

Representation in the game is often turned off at different points when people ask/demand me to (diplomatic reasons). And of course in times of war I had to drop it too after a while.

The windmills was more of a test. It would seem you can't go wrong because of the extra food, but the production density takes a big hit. The combo of the happiness cap and the health just never seems to go well for big windmill cities.

Anyhow, I just finished yet another Ramesses II game, which sort of happened by accident starting last night. I suppose I'll lable it (competiting with Darius) or something, as the SSE title's are getting sort of over-used and plain.

Thanks for an interesting read!