yeah so, there has been more than a few games where i was playing "good" and Hyborem seemed to be nothing more than Cautious towards me...at one point it was even PLEASED!! my proposal for the game: take hyborem out of the FFH universe and introduce Montezuma! that f*cker is EVIL! i've had more problems with Montezuma than i've had with Hyborem. I'm sure you can write it in the story somewhat, Montezuma comes in from another world and dethrones Hyborem with his thumb. Hyborem is then exiled to another-nother world.

While I don't think replacing Hyborem with a real-world leader is a good idea, I agree he could be a bit more war-like. Every time I ran into him and I wasn't the one who summoned him (I was playing Grigori), I ended up declaring war on him because he was getting in my way and raising the AC; it should have been the other way around.

Monte is more aggresive because his power score is a better relation to other players. Hyborems problem is that since he starts late his power score is no where near other players so the game AI assumes that means he is behind and he needs to turtle up. It would be the same even if is was Monte.

But definitly something we need to spice up.

How about him getting the same as Basium has, but opposite: declaring war automatically to good/order civs?

I think that making Infernal cities start with even larger boni would be a good idea. I'm thinking their cities should start at size 6 (instead of 3) with more free buildings, like Temples of the Veil, Demons Altars, and Weapon Smiths. It would also be nice if they could get these free buildings in cities they conquer, not just those they build, since they don't seem to build settlers very often, and wouldn't have much room to settle their own cities by that point of the game anyway. Similar (but probably slightly weaker) boni for the Mercurians would be good too, sine they also tend to turtle up, event though at war.


I was also thinking that one problem with burning sands/flames often being in Infernal lands. They fit very well thematically, but it really hinders players because they cannot be worked. I was thinking that a building that makes flames or burning sands more productive would be nice. This could be a new building, but it also seems to fit pretty well as an effect for demon's altars or even just from the Sacrifice the Weak civic.

Some ideas I would have for raising his score:

Can you make another "Never" technology which is worth a ton of points? Make him start with it (but it does nothing for him) and his score is inflated artificially. Along those same lines, make his Castle worth more points as a Wonder (or just add a wonder to Dis which has some sizeable score)

How about if there is ocean in the game making him raise up out of the sea with his own landmass? Or grant him cultural influence in every tile not currently in cultural borders already. Each of these seem rather iffy for being able to be put in code, but would give him points for landmass at least.

Final possibility would be to make Snake Pillars worth more points. IIRC tile improvements are worth points toward your score, so make a Snake Pillar worth more and he gets more score with expansion of Hell.

Of course, boosting his score too much could cause problems with the Barbs (they declare war on him when his score is 50% higher than the second best player, just as they would any other barbarian trait leader)

ps.Why do you always refer to palaces as castles? Castles are a very different building, and also a terrain improvement (the stage between forts and Citadels) in Shadow. This makes your posts confusing sometimes.

Sorry, keep forgetting the true name of the Capitol buildings :) Fantasy mod, so I think Castle when I remember something :) Will attempt to keep it clear in my head from now on ;)

Realised a problem with trying to boost his score via Wonder: Take Dis in war and you get the score boost for yourself, and with a Tech he might try to trade that away. So it'd be pretty dang hard to do I suppose ;(

Sorry, keep forgetting the true name of the Capitol buildings :) Fantasy mod, so I think Castle when I remember something :) Will attempt to keep it clear in my head from now on ;)

Realised a problem with trying to boost his score via Wonder: Take Dis in war and you get the score boost for yourself, and with a Tech he might try to trade that away. So it'd be pretty dang hard to do I suppose ;(

'Never' is already untradeable, as is the tech that the lanun have that gives them bonus seafood. also, many techs have minor power ratings on them. i think this idea could work in tricking hybo into making war more often, but there's still the problem that he'll be crushed by whoever he decides to attack 9 times out of 10

Giving Hyborem (the unit) a huge power score could help. Since they will lose their traits when he dies they problably should turtle more once he's gone.

or just give them a few more units to start with? (lower level ones that is)

Never is not the same as Seafaring, which is the Lanun-only starting tech.

or just give them a few more units to start with? (lower level ones that is)

Ideally whats needed is a way for Hyborem's power to scale with whats going on in the world. This could be done by giving him more or less settlers/units to begin with, though its a bit difficult to know what criteria to use as settlers are useless if all the land has been grabbed. Maybe the summoning Ashen Veil player can send word ahead to Hyborem whether to bring settlers or war units? Or sacrifice population in their cities to give Hyborem a better starting situation and a diplomacy bonus?

I personally don't think Hyborem needs to more aggressive. I'd ratherh ave him be stronger and able to win the game with some sort of hell victory.

In other words forcing the player to fight him.

I personally don't think Hyborem needs to more aggressive. I'd ratherh ave him be stronger and able to win the game with some sort of hell victory.

In other words forcing the player to fight him.

I always like seeing Hyborem come into the game, but he's so passive and never a big threat unless the world is already in shambles. As it is, he is only ever a danger when a player controls him, and even then, he usually doesn't last. I'd love to see him given a little help to make him a real competitor.

Why not a civ-specific building that can be constructed (relatively) quickly but is worth a lot of points? Like... replacing City Walls with a Wall of Bone or Wall of Souls or something. It builds quickly, would presumably provide superior defense and a cultural bonus (or something), and be worth enough points that constructing them would drive Hyborem's score way up -- particularly if he conquered a few cities and built them there too. It would do a good job of reflecting his status as a threat to the entire world, since his score would snowball as he conquered more of the world.

Actually, here's a thought -- a Wall of Souls, which in addition to serving as a City Wall, could summon a spectre whenever an enemy unit was adjacent to the city or even whenever an enemy unit entered the city's fat-cross. Or would that TOO much? I do notice that the Infernals don't seem to have a flavor building for their cities, and something militaristic seems very in-character for Hyborem.

Anyway, just an idea.

Well, according to the mouseover of your own score, you get points for:
Technology
Land
Population
Wonders

I am reasonably certain that I have seen the score go up when workers build improvements, so Land might include tile improvements. But I do not think that any non-wonder building in your city counts toward your score. I'd have to watch more closely in the early game when I build some buildings to check that one out.

Well, according to the mouseover of your own score, you get points for:
Technology
Land
Population
Wonders

I am reasonably certain that I have seen the score go up when workers build improvements, so Land might include tile improvements. But I do not think that any non-wonder building in your city counts toward your score. I'd have to watch more closely in the early game when I build some buildings to check that one out.
Does the score include national wonders? Those don't pass to a civ that conquers the city containing them, so a national wonder might be a good choice.

Of course, the Infernals are already screwed if they lose Hyborem, so having another thing that they will be crippled by the loss of seems harsh. But then, a national wonder can be rebuilt in another city.

Haven't seen a National Wonder that is restricted to a single Civ before. Might be able to do it though.

It's definately possible. Actually, you have seen single-civ national wonders before: Palaces (of Castles as you like to say ;)). Technically these are all civ-specific unique national wonders. Giving the Infernals there own special wonder would be just as easy, just requiring settling everyone else's unique version to NONE.

Would making Hyborem (the unit) 'permanently' immortal make him too powerful? Seems like he'd be a pretty nice bolster for the Infernals if the AI (and human player) used him super-aggressively, plus not as potentially unbalancing as improving the demons/cities as there can only be one of him at once.

If you wanted to go with the score-boosting wonder, then how about a wonder in Dis ("Soulstone", anyone? ;) ) that gives him the immortal promotion at the start of every Infernal turn? If the city is razed he loses the immortal promotion, wherever he is on the map.

So you can go rampaging with your kickass stompy demon lord, but are vulnerable to a surprise counterattack on your capital.

Dang, I should have entered that in the competition...

I think thats a bit powerful. What about regaining the Immortal promotion for razing a city with him? Given that the Infernals don't want to capture many size 1 cities it should work for them.


Edit: Doesn't Basium halve research rate?

I would prefer making units Hyborem kills have a chance of spawning manes, giving the Infernal extra production from flames, making Snake pillars upgrade like Forts (providing extra production and more defense for demons, maybe increased range/strength for summons), giving Infernal cities more free buildings, scaling the size and strength of his starting army in relation to those of the other civs, letting him start with a few HN units to get his early conquests started, making his cities start at size 6, making his manes sometimes start with xp like angels do, and giving him several more traits than any other leader (except Basium, who could use a similar boost)

Basium really doesn't need any help. Given that he starts with a team, it makes him capable enough that he doesn't need much help.

Hyborem on the other hand could use more starting units (in most cases), but done in a dynamic way that makes it possible to keep him out of turtle mode. I've got some ideas that I may test out after Shadow's release. Hyborem really should be more of a threat when he spawns, similar to the scare factor of seeing Orthus pop up next to your civ.

I don't think that a Palace follows the National Wonder Mechanic.

1) You have have 2 National Wonders in your Capitol, plus of course the Palace.

2) You can build the Palace while one already exists.


But, it does sound like a plausible case if my points are invalid.

I don't think that a Palace follows the National Wonder Mechanic.

1) You have have 2 National Wonders in your Capitol, plus of course the Palace.

2) You can build the Palace while one already exists.


But, it does sound like a plausible case if my points are invalid.
The palace is a national wonder. It just happends to be the only national wonder following the specific mechanics you point out in 1) and 2).

Well, according to the mouseover of your own score, you get points for:
Technology
Land
Population
Wonders


I'm pretty sure battles won also figures in your score. I'd think the best way to spawn Hyborem is dependant on the score of the summoner. That way if you rush to spawn him on turn 150 and a score of ~500, Hyborem will start with a very modest army so he can't just steamroll everyone. If the game has been going on for a while, it's turn 400, and the scores are around 2000, then Hyborem should be much more powerful.

I'm thinking you start with 1 Settler per 500 points, 1 Mane per 200 points, 1 Longbowman per 250 points, and 1 Sect of Flies per 250 points. That way you can artificially inflate Hyborem's score to whatever you want (I'd make it even with the summoner if possible), and he'd have the appropriate power to back it up.

I'm pretty sure battles won also figures in your score. I'd think the best way to spawn Hyborem is dependant on the score of the summoner. That way if you rush to spawn him on turn 150 and a score of ~500, Hyborem will start with a very modest army so he can't just steamroll everyone. If the game has been going on for a while, it's turn 400, and the scores are around 2000, then Hyborem should be much more powerful.

I'm thinking you start with 1 Settler per 500 points, 1 Mane per 200 points, 1 Longbowman per 250 points, and 1 Sect of Flies per 250 points. That way you can artificially inflate Hyborem's score to whatever you want (I'd make it even with the summoner if possible), and he'd have the appropriate power to back it up.
As far as the number of units that Hyborem receives, why not tie it to the extent to which the Ashen Veil religion has spread? Like, starting with one unit for every existing unit that has the Ashen Veil religion? After all, if Hyborem is spawned into an Order-dominated world, there's no reason that he would be particularly powerful, while if he enters an Ashen-Veil dominated world, he would very quickly be in a position to rule it.

Of course, that would make Hyborem extremely uninteresting in Order-dominated worlds -- going in just the opposite direction would make for games that are much more ... fluid. Like, one sect of flies for every unit that has the Order religion. I guess it depends on whether you see Hyborem's power in the world as a consequence of the world's growing evil, or as instigating factor in the emergence of a dark cancer upon Erebus.

As far as the number of units that Hyborem receives, why not tie it to the extent to which the Ashen Veil religion has spread? Like, starting with one unit for every existing unit that has the Ashen Veil religion? After all, if Hyborem is spawned into an Order-dominated world, there's no reason that he would be particularly powerful, while if he enters an Ashen-Veil dominated world, he would very quickly be in a position to rule it.

To be honest, I think Hyborem should be, if anything, more powerful in an Order-dominated world. That's not for any particular logical reason, but just for the cinematic effect. If the Order has spread and is actively stamping out evil, it's extremely boring for the last Ashen Veil nation to summon a pathetically weak army that gets instantly quashed. If, on the other hand, the last AV nation makes a desparate pact that the Order fails to prevent, resulting in the emergence of an apocalyptic army that the world must band together to stop, things are much more entertaining.

Perhaps we could go with a system similar to the one Arqane suggested (in the post you quoted), only base it off whoever's in first place, followed by some multiplier based off the percentage of power held by Order nations. Then again, that could break the Barbarian truce pretty quickly, so maybe his score could be based off the guy in second place instead (so the strongest nation in the world could potentially hold its own, but anyone else is in trouble).

I don't know if keeping peace with the barbarian's is more worthwhile than being strong. I'd personally be willing to be powerful enough to step on the Barbarian's without noticing them than to be so wimpy I am afraid to break our truce to take over a Barbarian town and claim some land for myself.

How about changing Fallow to give permanent peace with the barbarians? It's strange that the AV figurehead has a research penalty anyways.

I'm playing Hyborem in my current game, and it just occurred to me, why does he have the Expansive trait? It's completely irrelevant in light of his Fallow trait and the fact that he's always Ashen Veil, and therefore almost always uses Sacrifice the Weak...

I'm playing Hyborem in my current game, and it just occurred to me, why does he have the Expansive trait? It's completely irrelevant in light of his Fallow trait and the fact that he's always Ashen Veil, and therefore almost always uses Sacrifice the Weak...

I think there are other inconsistencies in the traits assigned and they should be looked at for each civ/leader. For example,

Alexis/Calabim has Philosophical and yet cannot build Elder Councils. I don't think a leader should have a trait that features a 'building' that cannot be built.

The Barbarian trait is useless for the Clan and Charadon. I have not played a .23 or a .25 game where these civs have NOT declared war on the barbs early on. This negates the advantage of the trait (peace with the barbs) while keeping the disadvantage (-10% Research).

There are others, too, I think that don't make sense.

I think there are other inconsistencies in the traits assigned and they should be looked at for each civ/leader. For example,

Alexis/Calabim has Philosophical and yet cannot build Elder Councils. I don't think a leader should have a trait that features a 'building' that cannot be built.

The Barbarian trait is useless for the Clan and Charadon. I have not played a .23 or a .25 game where these civs have NOT declared war on the barbs early on. This negates the advantage of the trait (peace with the barbs) while keeping the disadvantage (-10% Research).

There are others, too, I think that don't make sense.

This is surely a mistake of the AIs playing the CLan and charadon, right?

Or has the ability to fight barbs without declaring war been removed?