Hello.

I'm sure many of you share the same frustration: however powerful your navy, there's simply no way to block naval invasions. The reason: the enemy fleet can freely move around your ships and ignore them. Hence, unless you build a solid wall of ten-unit stacks of destroyers, you can never prevent them from unloading troops on your territory.
If this was real history, the Germans would have easily invaded Great Britain.

Solutions (from favorite to least favored):

1. Give ships an "intercept" ability. Any hostile ship entering national waters is automatically attacked by any warship within range.
2. Give ships ZOCs (zones of control). At least, this could realisticly (spelling?)delay the invasion. No fooling the Home Fleet!
3. Ships attempting to unload troops could be pinned down for one turn before troops actually disembark. This would represent the time (and pain) it takes to unload troops and supplies under enemy fire.
4. Slow down ships when they move in hostile waters. For instance, speed could be halved; or, entering enemy waters could use all your move points on that turn...

Whatever solution is applied, one has to be! As the game stands, it is simply infuriating. :mad:

Hello.

I'm sure many of you share the same frustration: however powerful your navy, there's simply no way to block naval invasions. The reason: the enemy fleet can freely move around your ships and ignore them. Hence, unless you build a solid wall of ten-unit stacks of destroyers, you can never prevent them from unloading troops on your territory.
Why not? You can form a ring of ships around your coasts. So you see the enemy ships approaching and attack them before they reach the main land. It's definitely possible.

I agree though that there should be some automatism. As it is, they always get through simply because I can't be bothered to check my whole coastline every single turn to see if there are enemy ships approaching :rolleyes:

A nice solution would be if patrolling ships would blockade adjacent tiles, or maybe an area of 2-3 in every direction. Enemy ships entering that zone would lose all remaining movement points and could be attacked in the following turn.

Or, the satellites tech should not only reveal the map but also the units. At least those that are not capable of hiding, like ships (except subs).

Promote a couple of ships to sentry (+1 sight range), place them 7 or so tiles of you coast. A dozen will be enought to see any incomming fleets.

I like the idea of patrol missin projectinz zone of control (similar to intercept mission on fighters) but you can prevent naval invasions without it. Satelites giving you full visibility would make late game turns to take forever as you wuld actually have to look all those units move.

There are two situations... peacetime and wartime. In peacetime the solution is to keep sentry ships out. You have to look at your coasts every turn before ending the turn. But, when you see a possible enemy invasion fleet, you have the time to assemble your counter fleet as well as to rally ground troops in case they are needed.

Personally I think that situation could be improved by adding a game option. Currently we have "View friendly movements" and "View enemy movements." With all the LOS of spies as well as religion, either of these settings can get REAL annoying. Ideal would be to have a third setting: "View all movements within sight of your borders".

During wartime, the situation is improved somewhat, because your sentry ships will immediately show you any enemy fleets, if you're using the current "View enemy movements" setting.

Wodan

Any "view this" or "view that" setting is not an option for me. I use stack attack, quick combat and quick moves, anything else would be unbearable. Heck, that would add 10+ hours of watching animations to any game ;)

Why not? You can form a ring of ships around your coasts. So you see the enemy ships approaching and attack them before they reach the main land. It's definitely possible.

But in the late game, ships are so fast that they can be out of detection range on one turn, and reach your territory on the following turn.
Or, the enemy coast could be so close to yours that they could close the gap in one turn... In both cases, you can't stop them. Even if you make a solid wall of ships, they can punch though by killing only one of your ships.

I agree though that there should be some automatism. As it is, they always get through simply because I can't be bothered to check my whole coastline every single turn to see if there are enemy ships approaching :rolleyes:

If you are under attack or think you may be attacked, the reasonable thing to do would be to check all your coast line every single turn, what do you think tha britisch did while the WW2??

I mean, you see any country, even during peace time not looking out for their borders? They do it every single turn.

Wodan:
There are two situations... peacetime and wartime. In peacetime the solution is to keep sentry ships out. You have to look at your coasts every turn before ending the turn. But, when you see a possible enemy invasion fleet, you have the time to assemble your counter fleet as well as to rally ground troops in case they are needed.

Personally I think that situation could be improved by adding a game option. Currently we have "View friendly movements" and "View enemy movements." With all the LOS of spies as well as religion, either of these settings can get REAL annoying. Ideal would be to have a third setting: "View all movements within sight of your borders".

During wartime, the situation is improved somewhat, because your sentry ships will immediately show you any enemy fleets, if you're using the current "View enemy movements" setting.

Iron Crown:
Any "view this" or "view that" setting is not an option for me. I use stack attack, quick combat and quick moves, anything else would be unbearable. Heck, that would add 10+ hours of watching animations to any game

I use quick combat and quick moves also but Wodan's solution would work perfectly for me (stack attack is irrelevant to his suggestion, as is quick combat).

In the BTS the cruise missiles to target the enemy ships were a nice add-on and think it's no more possible to come close to the coast and declare war on someone and disembark troops right on the same turn; It may be good to have mines in the water tiles to slow down the enemy progress in national waters. To have mines guarantees a lot of suffering to enemy ships before or even if they pass and makes them easy targets and slows their move but well having them should stop your fleet from entering the area as well and exploiting a sea resource in vicinity could be no more possible as well as decreasing the number of trade routes in the nearby port city. There should also be a new role for a unit to place/clear those mines.

Moreover it would be even nice to make naval units counter each other more effectively than they are right now so by spying on enemy navy one can more accurately make the units which are more needed to repel an attack.

If you are under attack or think you may be attacked, the reasonable thing to do would be to check all your coast line every single turn, what do you think tha britisch did while the WW2??

I mean, you see any country, even during peace time not looking out for their borders? They do it every single turn.

Sure, but in the real world there were thousands of people who did this watching as their job. In the game I take the role of the supreme leader of my civilization, I should have minions who do boring, repetitive jobs like that.

Cruise Missiles... haven't used them yet. What do they do? Do they only affect one unit or can they kill multiple units, like some kind of mini-nukes? (Noobish question, but I confess I rarely build any navy to speak of.)

Cruise Missiles... haven't used them yet. What do they do? Do they only affect one unit or can they kill multiple units, like some kind of mini-nukes? (Noobish question, but I confess I rarely build any navy to speak of.)

Missiles can not kill they only decrease the strength of units on the tile they attack, just like attacking with jets on a tile. They never slowdown any attacking force and they are just good because they can be built on non-coastal cities and then be used over naval units. Meanwhile you can build up your navy or commerce on the coast.

Mines can slow down and hurt.

Arguments based on realism have only a limited applicably in this situation. The quickest civ turns are one year, during which time a moden ship could get just about anywhere in the world, and a wind driven frigate could get half way around. This game also pays no attention to supply lines for ground troops. Fixing just these two glaringly unrealistic aspects of the game would be overwhelmingly difficult. Compromises need to be made.

I believe the idea of an automated intercept option (by both air and navel units) and single moves within enemy territory for navel vessels is a good combination and not too difficult to code, since similar operations already exist.

I would also like to see fuel/food limitations on oil powered and earlier ships. These ships would operate similar to the Bombers of CivIII. (And sailing ships would actually have a much longer range than coal- and oil fired- ships.) I could see a new unit: refueling tanker-- that would double a stack's range.

I'd like to see some kind of real advantage created for having trading and refueling ports that are owned by the same player as the ships, or by the ship owner's ally. Hong Kong, Singapore, Goa, Honolulu, Gibraltar, examples go on and on. I'd also contend there need to be limits on the maximum sea length of trade routes in these eras. There should be advantages to having small trading ports/refueling stops on little islands near big powers, or just out in the middle of nowhere.

All these restrictions would limit the possible routes that an invasion fleet could realistically approach an enemy's shores. Allowing defending players to watch or defend fewer routes. As the game exists now, the best defense from sea invasion is to have an excellent transportation infrastructure to bring troops up to crush any invasion on the beach. That 'works' for me, but I believe developing a more interesting naval game would add to the enjoyment of CIV V.

I'd also like to see naval battles help build a separate great admiral (instead of a great general) with his or her own attributes. In short I do believe the naval/sea faring aspects of the game could use some more detail and attention.

I had a game where I had war mongered early to take my whole continent. By the time optics and astronomy had made it possible to make contact with the other civs accross the ocean, I was by far the larges civ around. I was way ahead in tech and first on the power graph. Rather than build a fleet and conquer the other continents, I decided to go for a builder strategy and try to get a spaceship victory (which is the only victory I have not achieved in BTS).

For some unknown reason, four of the AI civs all declared war on me and landed troops on my continent all on the same turn! Now my infantry made quick work of their attacking macemen and musketmen, but it was very frustrating to have to micromanage a defense to civs who had no strategic or economic reason to attack me. Watching horse archers and knights pillage my countryside was annoying as well. Adding to this frustration was the fact that their navy could ferry troops to my shores every couple of turns without any way to stop them!

None of them would accept peace. The war weariness caused my once happy citizens to become less productive. Switching my production to troops coupled with the long, tedious turns made the game more work than fun. I decided to abandon the game, not because it was unwinnable, but because it stopped being fun.

I agree with the op completely. There should be some mechanism to slow or stop enemy ships before they approach the shore. If for no other reason, slowing ships when in enemy territory would at least make naval battles more interesting. This is especially true when the player has a distinctive tech advantage. Even with battle ships, you can only kill so many enemy galleons in one turn. Simply having more ships insures that they will reach the shore.

Why wait to be attacked? Use a submarine screen between your continent and all others. When you spot an invasion fleet, declare war and destroy it in the water.

Hello.

I'm sure many of you share the same frustration: however powerful your navy, there's simply no way to block naval invasions. The reason: the enemy fleet can freely move around your ships and ignore them. Hence, unless you build a solid wall of ten-unit stacks of destroyers, you can never prevent them from unloading troops on your territory.
If this was real history, the Germans would have easily invaded Great Britain.

Solutions (from favorite to least favored):

1. Give ships an "intercept" ability. Any hostile ship entering national waters is automatically attacked by any warship within range.
2. Give ships ZOCs (zones of control). At least, this could realisticly (spelling?)delay the invasion. No fooling the Home Fleet!
3. Ships attempting to unload troops could be pinned down for one turn before troops actually disembark. This would represent the time (and pain) it takes to unload troops and supplies under enemy fire.
4. Slow down ships when they move in hostile waters. For instance, speed could be halved; or, entering enemy waters could use all your move points on that turn...

Whatever solution is applied, one has to be! As the game stands, it is simply infuriating. :mad:

Hey man you need to make this suggestion in the WoC mod forum maybe they could add it to their mod:D Just a suggestion though :mischief:
Linkazoid http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=276

I would also like to see fuel/food limitations on oil powered and earlier ships. (...)
I'd like to see some kind of real advantage created for having trading and refueling ports that are owned by the same player as the ships, or by the ship owner's ally. Hong Kong, Singapore, Goa, Honolulu, Gibraltar, examples go on and on. I'd also contend there need to be limits on the maximum sea length of trade routes in these eras. There should be advantages to having small trading ports/refueling stops on little islands near big powers, or just out in the middle of nowhere.

I've been dreaming of stg like that since the begining. On an archipelago map, you can sometimes explore the whole world and meet almost everyone else with one fishing boat. How is this for absurd? Ships should have limited range (and land units too for that matter).
I love the idea of trading posts. It would make exploration more interesting.

I've been dreaming of stg like that since the begining. On an archipelago map, you can sometimes explore the whole world and meet almost everyone else with one fishing boat. How is this for absurd? Ships should have limited range (and land units too for that matter).
I love the idea of trading posts. It would make exploration more interesting.

Well a fishing boa certainly does not have Food troubles - they are fishing after all :D

A Range limitation without basing/refuling and some kind of 'supply'-need is something that would be interesting for sure. However it would also - probably greatly - increase the micromanagement needed.

Any "view this" or "view that" setting is not an option for me. I use stack attack, quick combat and quick moves, anything else would be unbearable. Heck, that would add 10+ hours of watching animations to any game ;)

Then you're going to have to bear the consequences of not enabling certain features, which might include being at a military disadvantage at certain points. ;) "View Enemy Moves" is extremely useful.

I haven't had a problem with naval invasions. It's a matter of:

1) Maintaining a large and updated navy, which will have no problem sinking the largest naval stack. Large navies often aren't the priority of many players, but they need to be if you're on a map like Big_and_Small.

2) Keeping your navy out at sea instead of in the harbor. Naval units have tremendous line of sight, so use that to your advantage. Deploy naval units to act as spotters along stretches of strategic ocean lane to ensure that no one is sneaking up on you.

3) Maintaining a robust army. I've been invaded a number of times, but again, it's not a problem, because they're landing on your territory, which should be well-roaded/railroaded and home to a sizable part of your army. Once they land, you should already have a stack of troops on their way to intercept. Better yet, send mounted units; they're faster and will flank enemy siege. Cavalry make excellent rapid point-defense for naval invasion of cannons and gunpowder.

Just have enemy ships go down to one movement when in your borders. Makes perfect sense? Nope. Prevents the old "Declare war from borders, sail in to coastal city, raze it in one turn with amphibious units before the victim can do anything about it" routine though. It sucks to have to pre-emptively declare war on someone with a stack of ships outside of your borders to stop this move. For all you know, they were just moving them to another civ.

The ai need to be able to fend off naval invasions.

I just post a line of warships within visual distance of each other as a picket-line to detect enemy warships approaching my shores. I keep this line of picket ships more then one-turn from my coastline (where possible) to give me a good idea where the enemy is before he reaches my shores and enough time to react... even if (for whatever reason), I can't intercept all incoming ships, I can then at-least prepare the likely landing sights to repel them on the beaches... usually mid to late-game I have a working rail-network anyways, so just a one or two turn "heads-up" to an invasion is more then enough warning to properly deal with any intruders...

The picket line of warships off-shore is the best way to prevent unwanted surprise invasions.

I use a sub and destroyer screen to detect ship movements. You have to make a couple of layers. A destroyer or sub set on sentry duty will wake up when a ship comes within range, but often the ship will pass out of range on the same turn, and then your sentry is awake, but sees nothing. Howevr, the second ring should now be active.
In the case of the AI nation being within one or two turns of crossing, then your screen needs to be just off their coast. Spies can see a buildup of troops and ships in a port, or if you have open borders, you can post a destroyer within sight of the city.
The screen needs to be dense enough that several ships can move in to attack, and weighted in the direction of potential enemies.
Even with that, I was surprised once when Rome declared war, made an amphibioius assault with macemen and horse archers. I had two riflemen in each coastal city, bu that was not enough for the wave of assaulters. Yes, i took the city back, next turn, but much of the infrastructure had been destroyed.

Sentry works against enemies but friendly ships just steam on by. You can use air patrols or active sea patrols, but this takes a lot of manual effort/time.

A Range limitation without basing/refuling and some kind of 'supply'-need is something that would be interesting for sure. However it would also - probably greatly - increase the micromanagement needed.

Yes, that's just a matter of taste really. I'd enjoy micro-managing trade and naval events more, while other folks enjoy land combat and city management more. (I really HATE micro-managing the workers, but find I need to do so-- I can't trust them to develop the land around cities like I would wish.)

I'm really into the 'exploring' aspect of the game. I can't understand why anyone would even consider playing a computer game which gives you an identical 'map' every time you play! My personal taste is to create more details (demanding "micro-"management) for exploring.

A while back I even had the idea of seeding the world with all kinds of critters, and having zoos as a city improvement. Scouts and explorers would 'collect' critters from around the world, to bring back to their zoos, and the animals would go extinct as civilizations developed their land, making it a race against development. Civilizations could also trade animals between their zoos. I'm just really into the exploring/discovering/trading part of the game.

exploring is the last thing on my mind...i'm an RFC only player.....much better game IMHO

perhaps what is necessary is to modify the attributes of ships carrying soldiers and land units ie galleys, galeons, transports etc. when these these ships are in enemy water squares their movement should be reduced to 1 move per turn, which would make them vulnerable to enemy ships.

Also it maybe of better use to separate the functions of an open borders agreement into 3 different agreements.
I open markets, where the two civs can trade but not have right of passage
II General Right of PAssage, where units of a non milatary nature may pass though the borders of another, ie settlers, workers, missionarys, corp. execs, etc.
III. Milatary right of passage, where all other milatary units may pass though anothers territory. with this option there should be availabe a "move your army/navy away from us" demand that could be made, and if not answered then would show the hostile intentions of your opponent.

in addition the AI should be made to think in more of a "naval sense" in that their objective should be to destroy their opponents navy before attempting a naval invasion. the AI should be able to assemble fleets that seriously threaten a player, and their navy should be a serious priority for the AI.

Well, I think the AI's navies don't need to become any larger. In my last game on a Big&Small map (Emperor level) I was shocked when I prepared an attack on Montezuma and found a fleet of 44 destroyers, about 20 transports and a couple of battleships and carriers in one of his cities. And on top of that there was a fleet again this size out on the seas. I gave up on even trying to build my own navy then.

true, its just that the AI must know how to use its navy effectively

perhaps what is necessary is to modify the attributes of ships carrying soldiers and land units ie galleys, galeons, transports etc. when these these ships are in enemy water squares their movement should be reduced to 1 move per turn, which would make them vulnerable to enemy ships.

Also it maybe of better use to separate the functions of an open borders agreement into 3 different agreements.
I open markets, where the two civs can trade but not have right of passage
II General Right of PAssage, where units of a non milatary nature may pass though the borders of another, ie settlers, workers, missionarys, corp. execs, etc.
III. Milatary right of passage, where all other milatary units may pass though anothers territory. with this option there should be availabe a "move your army/navy away from us" demand that could be made, and if not answered then would show the hostile intentions of your opponent.

in addition the AI should be made to think in more of a "naval sense" in that their objective should be to destroy their opponents navy before attempting a naval invasion. the AI should be able to assemble fleets that seriously threaten a player, and their navy should be a serious priority for the AI.

I like all these ideas, but especially III.

When I have alot of coast I usually have a belt of sentry upgraded submarines away in the ocean keeping the watch on. Suprise attacks is part of the game and should be kept in.

That being said, I'd LOVE to be able to ask an AI to move his troops away from my boundairies/lands. Wasn't that an option in Alpha Centauri? I know it was in some game anyhow...

SEA MINES! Stackable, Damages whole stack, double movement cost to get out of tile, limited to coastal waters! Rocks!

Don't slow down transports in enemy waters, add a De-miner ship that has a speed of 3?

The sentry line merely alerts you to the passage of a ship, whether enemy or friend.
If no war has been declared, then the ship is friendly by default. But if you see the ship because your sentry has been awakened, then you will know if it is a stack headed somewhere.
The problem as originally stated, and has happened to all, probably, is that a *friendly* ,that is, not a declared enemy, will move a stack to your border, declare war and land troops in the same turn. Since the border is only two or three squares, this is doable even with galleons.
Slowing down ships to one square per turn brings all ship movements to a grinding halt. If he does not have open borders with you, then he becomes an enemy after crossing your border. And if the AI is hindered, so are you.
IMO the AI makes huge numbers of ships, but rarely uses them effectively. I destroyed about 50 frigates and galleons of Shaka last night -- most of them sitting in port. I blockaded the port physically, parking destroyers on all squares and destroyed the ships when i conquered the city. He had only sent out two frigates toward my nearby island outpost. As it happened, I joined Sitting Bull at his request, but it was ten turns before I had a sizeable force near Shaka.
Also, occasionally they will send a stack of troops, but usually they only send two or three transports at a time.
I would leave this alone and just be alert to possible invasion from any source.

Was reading thru this thread, I believe an easy fix for Naval Movement in general would be some or all of the following:

+1 Tile Movement penalty for Enemies moving thru your Territory.

+1-2 Tile Movement penalty when entering/leaving an opponents Territory - just like entering Forests/Jungles etc.

On maps larger than standard a movement bonus for ships in "Neutral" Ocean territory (Not Coastal Tiles) would make sense as well. Haven't played enough large maps to make a suggestion for this, but likely something simple like 25/50/or 100% when your move starts in an ocean tile, and ends in an ocean tile.

IE a Ship w/ 8 movement, takes 3 moves to get to ocean, if the bonus was 50% then the remaining 5 moves thru ocean would get the bonus
and the ship could move 7 tiles, next turn starting in ocean would be able to move 12 ocean tiles. Along w/ these general concepts ships starting a turn in an ocean tile and all moves going thru ocean tiles could get a +1 move bonus as well.

One of the mods running right now "Seven05's World Piece" has taken the liberty to carte blanche increase Naval and Aircraft movement/range by 50 to 100% - which I find will completely unbalance the game.

Missiles can not kill they only decrease the strength of units on the tile they attack, just like attacking with jets on a tile. They never slowdown any attacking force and they are just good because they can be built on non-coastal cities and then be used over naval units. Meanwhile you can build up your navy or commerce on the coast.

Mines can slow down and hurt.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they kill. I had a stack of say 20 missiles, and I used stack attack on a stack of tanks. I think it was about 10 tanks and after the attack there were only 2 tanks left.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they kill. I had a stack of say 20 missiles, and I used stack attack on a stack of tanks. I think it was about 10 tanks and after the attack there were only 2 tanks left.
You're right, he's wrong. Guided Missiles have no damage limit - you can destroy a stack completely if you have enough (3-4 missiles per enemy unit, depending on the units).

I agree with the op. There isnt a fullproof solution to stopping naval invasions, which is why I feel like most games I dont build a navy at all. The ai navy can move in and find an unguarded tile. Or he can attack a guarded tile with enough firepower to take it. Either way there is literally nothing to stop him from landing troops. And sentry, so what? Unless you are going to declare war first, that isnt going to help.

Thats why the best solution against naval invasion is to have a solid defense in your cities because if the ai wants to attack via the sea, you WONT be able to stop him from at least landing troops.

Solid defense, yes, but screen. By the time the AI or I can mount a massive fast moving invasion, I am railroaded. I can move enough troops to any threatened city, if I see the threat. Keeping enough toops in every city takes a lot of troops that could be in the field.
However, if you don't have troops overseas, then you should have plenty of toops at home. If he lands troops on your beach, you have time to respond. However, sometimes they send a fleet and make an amphibious attack on a city. They might lose most of their troops, but if they send enough, you lose a city.

Another very simple way to slow them down would be to not allow move and unload on the same turn. ie make them stop on the coast so they can unload the next turn (if they survive)

Sentry submarines located at an appropriate distance will warn you of an incoming fleet 3 turns before it reaches your coast. That gives you plenty of time to rebase as many planes as you can, move your army to confront them where they land, and bring your fleet to attack their transports (although your fleet will probably arrive late so they will have to sink the unloaded transport, but at least that means they won't send any more troops your way).

However, this isn't really satisfactory, and I agree with the solution propose by Vladesch. However, I think that a few other things should also be done:
1) You can only unload units outside of a city if the ship has not moved yet
2) All ships get +1 movement points to compensate for this
3) You can get Amphibious 1 after combat 1 which allows you to unload from ships even after its moved (ie. brings it back to what it is now)
4) Amphibious 2 is availble after Amphibious 1 and does the same thing as the current Amphibious promotion.

The sentry idea is useless if coasts are within the number of moves needed to ferry troops to your land.

I'd like Amphibious 2 (or Amphibious 3 depening on how it's set up) to allow "raiding". That is disembarking and embarking from/to a boat doesn't cost any moves and can be done even if the unit has moved already.

Wodan

The sentry idea is useless if coasts are within the number of moves needed to ferry troops to your land.

Yes, well, in that case, you need to eliminate them first. Or make sure that they are not a threat.
The one city I have lost to an amphibious landing, none of his troops had Amphibious trait -- it was not available to him at that time. In the options list, perhaps, but he sent Horse Archers and Swordsmen. Just lots of them. If i had been paying attention ... but i was not.

I totally agree with the OP. It's one thing for infantry to to be able to run and intercept an enemy, but a ship? They should be able to auto-intercept an enemy fleet.

Naval combat and units need a complete overhaul, the way that air units did between SMAC and Civ 3. However, we're probably going to have to wait for civ 5 for this to happen.

There are so many things wrong with the naval system I can't even begin to list them.

If this was real history, the Germans would have easily invaded Great Britain.

Depends on the map. If you want to accurately represent a specific historical and geographic situation, you've at least got to have the right map, if not the right mod. If German ships couldn't get from their Baltic ports to either land on the British coast or rebase to a French port in a single round, they'd be toast; the British player would be using aircraft as spotters and with his navy (and possibly airforce too), easily destroy any fleet that appeared. Not to mention the German player should have a really difficult time assembling enough transports to do the job properly until the Brits have had enough time to build up their homeland defences.

You can't expect the base game - unmodified - to reflect every possible specific historical situation. That's what custom maps and mods are for.

Depends on the map. If you want to accurately represent a specific historical and geographic situation, you've at least got to have the right map, if not the right mod. If German ships couldn't get from their Baltic ports to either land on the British coast or rebase to a French port in a single round, they'd be toast; the British player would be using aircraft as spotters and with his navy (and possibly airforce too), easily destroy any fleet that appeared. Not to mention the German player should have a really difficult time assembling enough transports to do the job properly until the Brits have had enough time to build up their homeland defences.

You can't expect the base game - unmodified - to reflect every possible specific historical situation. That's what custom maps and mods are for.

Good point, but I still find it strange how my 8 movement ship can't move to intercept an enemy that floats right on by it.

Adding a ZOC might to do the trick.

Wodan

I totally agree with the OP. It's one thing for infantry to to be able to run and intercept an enemy, but a ship? They should be able to auto-intercept an enemy fleet.

Keep in mind, we have two different attack scenes. If at war, you can screen and defend against enemy attacks across water. If they are close, it is just harder. Post a ship at or within his borders, or send in a scout ship and retreat out of air attack range, so you know if he is building up an invasion fleet.
If not at war, then he is not an enemy until he declares war. If you suspect him, cancel your open borders agreement and prepare a reception committee.

Keep in mind, we have two different attack scenes. If at war, you can screen and defend against enemy attacks across water. If they are close, it is just harder. Post a ship at or within his borders, or send in a scout ship and retreat out of air attack range, so you know if he is building up an invasion fleet.
If not at war, then he is not an enemy until he declares war. If you suspect him, cancel your open borders agreement and prepare a reception committee.

Sure, there are ways to help prevent it, but I still don't understand why my ships will just sit back and twiddle their thumbs as an enemy ship chugs right on by.

Very good original point.

Some of us play on huge archipeligo maps, where the streches of water to cover against attack are bigger.

Most of us play part of the game without submarines or destroyers.

In the appropriate era, with enough frigates you can indeed screen against most approaching fleets.

Some of us do not have the resources in every part of every game to have as big a fleet as would be ideal.

Some of us do not always have a big enough fleet to promote some of our ships to sentry. Some ships may not even have a promotion (many trimenes that eventually become frigates for example.)

In a recent game I was expecting a naval attack from the Russians. (I turned out to be right in about 30 turns. They were too strong for me to invade them.)
With my 5 frigates (I had just discovered Chemistry in Warlords, the first civ. to do so) I could cover all of the likely approaches. However to do so, I needed to move each of my ships every turn. By moving back and forth each turn you see more.

Doing this repetitive task every turn was not playing a game, it was work!
We hear a lot of talk about "micromanagement" which seems to only apply to things the particular person does not want to bother doing.

I think this is a good example of what I consider "micromanagement."
In order to get the maximum impact in the game from what I have, I have to do a boring task again and again.

Obviously, one solution is for me to have had more ships (not to mention submarines or satellites.) This misses the point.
There is never any reason to use what you have optimally, if you can just magically double what you have without any cost.

P.S. I built a few ironclads, which helped to greet the eventual Russian tourists: 3 Frigates and 3 Galleons, plus a few followon Frigates.

I've been testing a quick change that prevents units from moving from a transport into enemy territory if the transport unit has moved. Of course the AI refuses to launch an amphibious invasion when you want them to but it looks pretty good from my side.

I figured this was the most elegant solution because it's so specific. The problem with stopping naval units on entering hostile waters is that you have to make an exception for units that can enter rival territory normally (or you should anyway) but then you have to make an exception to the exception for UUs like the East Indiaman which can transport military units AND entire rival territory. And even then, or if those issues don't bother you, such a change reduces the value of increased movement points on ships from events (circumnavigation) and promotions unless you add those bonus after reducing the movement but then why reduce the movement in the first place?

So if anybody is curious which of the two methods works best, from my testing I'd say not allowing units to unload from transports that have moved is the better option. I plan on testing it with the restirction disabled for units with the amphibious promotion later to see how that works out but that may make certain units too powerful, I don't know yet.

You need to define 'enemy territory'. If you are not already at war, you are not an enemy. I have never seen an AI declare war from within the boundaries when he had Open Borders -- but it probably happens.

but then why reduce the movement in the first place?
The reasoning I use for why it would cost an additional move point for moving thru enemy waters is that:
When a ship is out in open water (ocean) - it just travels with little to no concern for much else. Whereas when closer to land or islands; especially land of an enemy - you can't travel/move with no regard for anything else.
You would cut speed back somewhat, and be more cautious. Thus the amount of time it would take to travel the same distance is increased.

Ships w/ Promotions and Circumnavigation bonus - would still be quite relevant - case in point:
A ship is 3 squares away from a coastal city; just outside of cultural borders.
Enter Borders (+1 Move); Move 1 (+1); Travelling thru Enemy territory (+1)
Next Square: +1 +1
Next Square: +1 +1
Even a destroyer w/ no move bonuses could make it from just outside cultural borders to position & attack in one turn.
A Transport w/ no move bonuses would not be able to make it the 3 squares out to land troops in one turn. Whereas a transport w/ 2 levels of Navigation could, 7 move pts required.


I generally give all my transports, in the modern age, +2 levels of navigation - so that they don't slow down the destroyers and carriers that are escorting them so much.

While I agree that you should be able to have naval fleets on an "intercept" option, but I think there are some diplomacy options that could be in the game that would enhance diplomacy as well as land and sea military strategy.

First of all, I agree with a previous comment that there should be "levels" of open border agreements. There is no reason why another country should be able to send military units through my border just so I can get the economic and diplomatic bonuses of "open borders".

But even more frustratingly is how quickly a civ can decide to attack you even if you have "positive" relations with them. I think that there should be *two* ratings of relationships between civs. One is the "real" rating, and one is the "PR" relationship. Think of the German/Soviet non aggression pact of wwII. Publicly, the Germans were working with the Soviets, but secretly, they were preparing a sneak attack.

You could have a country secretly preparing to attack someone with whom they have positive "PR" relations with, and the real relationship rating would be secret. This could be uncovered with significant spying perhaps. To make human players bounded in the same fashion, you could add an option to "prepare for war" against some country and optionally devote espionage points to keeping it secret. Failure to do so results in a 25% drop in soldier performance (not ready for the fighting style or culture of the enemy) for 10 turns and a 25% increase in war wariness (no political plans in place to placate the populace).

Now, with these kind of diplomatic options, diplomats/spies can do additional things. Spies could be placed in a city and put on assignment to alert players if a large army is building, and if said army is deployed into transports. Diplomatically, it would be nice to ask your "friend" what he plans to do with that Army he's loading onto transports. I'm not sure what the game mechanics would be, but perhaps the AI would be required to provide some type of destination marker on the map and a course line. Deviations from course would result in reduced diplomatic standing and provide some early warning.

Yet an even more cool option would be to place a spy *aboard* a ship! The placement of spies and the build-up size of the army would influence how hard it is to uncover secret invasion plans.

-- SJN

Yet an even more cool option would be to place a spy *aboard* a ship! The placement of spies and the build-up size of the army would influence how hard it is to uncover secret invasion plans.
You can do this now. Caravels and subs can carry your spies and allow you to see the troop buildup in their coastal cities (without chance of the spy being discovered).

Wodan

No, you didn't understand. When I said aboard a ship, I meant aboard AN ENEMY ship...

-- SJN

well if its possible, then make it so, that you need a transport to have full movement, so ship have not moved yet.

So a galleon with 3 units, load onto a ship and move towards target, nearby enemy land, but cant unload right away, instead next turn, when ship is at max movement, then it can offload, this would give target a single round to intercept the enemy fleet, to prevent it from landing the troops.

so no need for intercept rules or anything else.