The critical question for the turn is granary vs archer. I would like to hear everyone's opinion on that.

I tend to build granaries right away. It always feels like a diversion from other units, but the sooner we make the investment, the sooner whipping becomes effective. Whip the granary, then build archers while the population grows back. After the settler is done, we will have the option to whip barracks and units. If you build your archers before granary, then you will not be able to grow the city back unless you delay the settler. I think Mansa's improvements can wait a few turns before you send the archer off to raze them. :devil:

Stationing axes at choke points sounds like a good idea but would those axes be better employed harrassing the AI and stalling their economy and research?

I am all for a unit or two doing some pillaging, especially if we are planning to raze cities (Save the cottages though! They will still be there later.).

However, an axeman in each choke point makes defense of London much simpler. And as Mark suggested, allows us to promote a couple as we build our invasion force. Would be nice to have a couple of medics in our stack when we leave.

I definitely would lean towards option 1. Raze everything and slowly expand This will make our empire management and troop assignment much easier.

Agreed. This is Always War, so the normal rules of Conquest don't apply. Raze just about everything except the capitals. We'll end up with such a huge army eventually that we just won't be able to support many cities.

It sounds like consensus for the granary. I will play this afternoon until writing unless IW reveals something important.

I have paused my turn because of what has happened. We have a barb city to the west and Alex has built a city just south of the mountains. I have not yet reached IW but I have whipped the granary. I think the next build should be a barracks followed by axemen.

THe workers are heading to the copper to bring it online asap.

Turn 0 – 1570 BC
(stopped copper worker – they are going to speed up farming the rice and mining the gold)
IBT – nothing

Turn 1 – 1540 BC
York founded – granary – works cows (London works grassland forest)
IBT – Alex Archer & Settler heading for elephants

Turn 2 – 1510 BC
IBT – 2nd Alex archer shows up

Turn 3 – 1480 BC

Turn 4 – 1450 BC
IBT – Alex settler continues to move N towards horses maybe? Warrior keeps 1 step ahead in forested tiles.

Turn 5 – 1420 BC
Rice farmed (York works rice, London cows)
IBT – Alex founds a nice city for us (bananas, horses, elephants, oasis) this will be our first target and one we will keep.
IBT – barb city E of York on the isthmus

Turn 6 – 1390 BC
Whip granary for 1 pop.

@erik - You've linked to a 1570 BC save. :p In any case Alan strongly prefers saves to be uploaded to the SGOTM server rather than uploaded to the game thread.

Barracks next in London is ok with me. I thought we already had one there. :crazyeye: Alex' city is nice indeed, but my experience in AW is that you cannot hold cities that are not directly connected to you empire. As we are not at war with Alex only we also have to defend the city against the other AIs and we have to prevent pillaging. Without this prevention the city is useless, so I am still in favor of razing everything while expanding slowly until we have COL.

The barb city can also be razed as it would not contribute much.

I agree Alex's city is a good one. By biggest concern is it may block us from grabbing the two golds to the south. Here is a dot map:

166557

Red dot uses the bananas and gets the two gold. Also has five river grassland tiles for cottages. Blue grabs 'phants, cows, and a ton of river tiles. I think red dot and blue dot would be outstanding cities, both have hills for short term production, but also great commerce potential. Yellow dot would be a third potential city to grab some resources.

If we keep Alex's city (white dot), then blue dot could shift one right (marked as an open blue circle). In fact, if there are goodies under the FOW to the SE, maybe this is a better spot. Yellow dot could shift NE, although without the horses, maybe it is too weak a city to be worth it.

My problem is red. Unless there is something good in the FOW, I don't know where else to site red. It needs food (like the bananas) to work the gold mines. The wheat to the south is not sufficient, and there is too much desert in between. Maybe we go all the way to the coast and grab the fish, but there won't be much else in the cross but ocean and desert.

Maybe the warrior south of London can pop down a couple of tiles to the SW and see if there is another site to claim the golds.

I'm not happy about barracks and axemen slowing down pink dot. However, I guess we need to clear the barbs before we settle pink.

Will this barb city start to spawn warriors to pester us? (sorry, I hardly ever play with barbs on)

I think I'd stick an archer in next. Seems like we are one unit short to cover London, York, gold mine, and copper mine. Even if the scout heads for copper after peeking at the SW, we still need more than one unit in London in case a mine-covering warrior loses to a barb.

I'm not happy about barracks and axemen slowing down pink dot. However, I guess we need to clear the barbs before we settle pink.

Will this barb city start to spawn warriors to pester us? (sorry, I hardly ever play with barbs on)


Once barb cities reach three units then one unit tends to wander out IIRC. The barb city is most likely to build archers I believe. Of course there's always the chance an axe will spawn.


I think I'd stick an archer in next.


This strikes me as the best idea in the short term. We don't really want to disrupt our existing plans unless necessary.

I agree with mark's comments that it may be best to raze Alex's city rather than try and defend it against the AI.

Turn 6 1390 BC
IBT – nothing

Turn 7 1360 BC
London Granary – Archer
Warrior scout finds cows near the gold.
IBT - nothing

Turn 8 1330 BC
IBT – nothing

Turn 9 1300 BC
Barb city has 2 archers
IBT – nothing

Turn 10 1270 BC
IW discovered – iron is down by gold, cows
London Archer – Barracks
Archer stationed in jungle to block barbs.
IBT

Turn 11 1240 BC

Turn 12 1210 BC
Archer from London stationed on Gold, warrior returns to London
Warrior scout starts back to homeland duty.

Turn 13 – 1180 BC
IBT – Great Wall is built by unknown

Turn 14 – 1150 BC
Warrior fortifies in the pass to keep an eye out on the iron.
Turn 15 – 1120 BC
Turn 16 – 1090 BC
Gold mined – York works rice & gold
Turn 17 – 1060 BC
Turn 18 – 1030 BC
Writing – Myst

We are at turn 99, the barracks will be ready in 2 turns and we can produce axes or we could produce a settler and go for the iron.

I have posted a few signs for fortified troops and the iron. I have also posted a do not chop sign on one forested hill because it is shared by York and London and counts for both cities. York is short of health at this point. The workers were on the gold so I built a road there to help speed troops to the barb city.

Damn... those cows are right where I wanted to put a city :lol: . I think it is still the best spot, although I hate wasting the cows. With farmed bananas, this means a city of 4 can work both golds and the iron. If we have health to grow to 6, then we can work the oasis and a mined grass hill. Not a bad production city. Once we are able to put a plantation on the bananas, then we work another grass hill. In the long run, as I mentioned before, we can switch over to cottages on the riverside for research. (Another option is to settle right on the iron and save the cow. However, this location would require defending nets on the fish to have enough food, so I think we are better off settling on the cows.)

Erik, I think we will eventually need to chop the hill near York. We need to work both grassland hills. We can mine the unforested hill first, but eventually will have to mine the forested one. York is food poor, so we can only add two more pop. Health won't be an issue.

One of the workers on the gold has movement left. Next player can move him on turn 0. I would send both workers to chop/mine the grass hill 2E of London. London will grow soon, we need another improved tile. I think we should chop a settler after the barracks is completed so we can grab the iron spot before Alex gets there. I think we can leave the barbs for a bit because it looks like Erik has found a good choke point.

My suggestion for a rough plan:


London follows barracks with an archer, then a settler (the archer will go with the settler down to iron). We need to leave the archer on the London gold in case Alex invades from his 'phant city.
Workers chop/mine grass hill 2E of London. These hammers should go into the settler. The mine will give our 5th pop an improved tile to work.
London follows settler with axemen and eventually swords. Maybe 4-5 to kill the barbs.
Settler founds a city on the cows. I think this new city should build a second archer immediately... I have to think it will attract attention from Alex. In fact, we might want to send the first axeman built in London down to the iron city to protect the worker and the iron. After the new city builds one archer, it builds granary, barracks, and then spams axemen/swordsmen and the occasional spear.
When York grows to pop 3, whip the granary (one pop) and start a barracks. After barracks, York builds all axemen/swords/spears.
Worker 1 heads down with the settler and mines/roads the iron. After mining iron, worker 1 roads the city to the river so the iron is available to London for swords.
Worker 2 heads for the grass hill north of the "do not chop" hill and builds a mine. Even after we whip the granary, it won't be long before York needs a third improved tile.
After mining the grass hill, worker 2 mines the plains hill 2 north of London (London should be close to pop 6 by then).
Once we destroy the barbs, London can stick in another settler for pink dot, then it goes all military as well.

If we are going to be razing cities, then I think our research should be a beeline to Construction so we can bring cats to the party. After that, we can do sailing and calendar to take advantage of our plantation tiles. With sailing, we can build a galley to ferry a worker to the cows for pink dot, then do some exploring and net pillaging.

So, the decisions we need to gather input on:


Settler next, or axemen to kill barbs?
If we build a settler, do we settle iron city next or pink dot?
If iron city is next, where do we site it? Cows? Elsewhere?
Next techs? Beeline to Construction, CoL, or Calendars?
HB is out for another four days. Should we skip him one more time, or wait until he returns? (In other words, in the following, who gets "UP!" next to their name? :D



Mark
Sam
AgedOne
The-Hawk
Harbourboy -skipped
Erik - just played

If we come to a conclusion how to proceed before Harbourboy comes back I will play a set and we will fit him in after me.

So, the decisions we need to gather input on:


Settler next, or axemen to kill barbs?
If we build a settler, do we settle iron city next or pink dot?
If iron city is next, where do we site it? Cows? Elsewhere?
Next techs? Beeline to Construction, CoL, or Calendars?



I agree with settler next and that the settler should head for iron city (Nottingham).

If we site Nottingham on the cows then we need Mysticism to build a monument and then wait until the culture expands before we can even start mining the iron. If we settle 1W of the cows we can skip Mysticism as we don't need a monument anytime soon and we can start mining the iron immediately. I vote 1W of the cows, the city may not be as good but we get the benefits faster.

I think we should beeline Construction for the cats. It would be nice to fit in a library build in London sometime soon.

My apologies for my absence. Festive reasons :D
I've just been reading through everything that has happened in the last couple of days. Interesting developments, with the main ones being the iron site discovery and Alex's (should that be 'The Late Alex'?) intrusion into our territory.

So, the decisions we need to gather input on:

Settler next, or axemen to kill barbs?
If we build a settler, do we settle iron city next or pink dot?
If iron city is next, where do we site it? Cows? Elsewhere?
Next techs? Beeline to Construction, CoL, or Calendars?


I would go with settler next. The barbs are hemmed in tight at present, and will stay that way unless they suddenly get axes.

The settler should grab the iron site immediately. Pink dot can be delayed. If copper gave our empire lift-off, then iron will get us into orbit :)!

I would go for settling Nottingham on the hill where the warrior is currently fortified. It's a shame to lose the use of the hill, but it achieves other objectives of gaining iron and cattle immediately.
The other possibility is settling on the iron - but I like this much less. Too much coast, doesn't get cattle until expansion, a bit exposed to attack.

Tech path is a difficult one. I really don't know what I'd go for. I must admit I always feel a bit better taking my cats along to a battle, so that would be very tempting. The downside is, of course, that we will end up trying to support a far-flung empire before too long - even if we only keep capitals.

Are we looking at a potential stall in our military strategy, where we have to stop & get courthouses, before we can support our empire? Obviously, if we think we have the power we can turn off research and keep our economy running like that. I find this too hard to judge. I'd go with advice from those Geezers with more conquest/domination experience than myself.

If we site Nottingham on the cows then we need Mysticism to build a monument and then wait until the culture expands before we can even start mining the iron. If we settle 1W of the cows we can skip Mysticism as we don't need a monument anytime soon and we can start mining the iron immediately. I vote 1W of the cows, the city may not be as good but we get the benefits faster.

Urgh, forgot about culture expansion.

There are a few problems with settling the hill 1W of the cows:


We lose the bananas. Plus one food from cow and plus one food from oasis means we are limited to working the iron plus the two golds. We will need to farm grassland to get onto the grass hills.
We drop three forests (net) from our BFC, will have health problems with the jungles (might anyhow since we are not on the river).
We lose two riverside grass tiles and pick up 3 coastal tiles that only have one food (can't build lighthouse). This hurts the commerce potential in the long run.


We don't need to research Myst and build a monument (although this is not a bad option since we will eventually need Myst for CoL). We could build a library first, maybe chop it out with the forest on the hill. With two golds, a library would be a good build anyhow.

We don't need to research Myst and build a monument (although this is not a bad option since we will eventually need Myst for CoL). We could build a library first, maybe chop it out with the forest on the hill. With two golds, a library would be a good build anyhow.

:hmm: If we're going to hang around waiting for a library (@135 :hammers: it's three times the cost of a monument) to be built then maybe we might be better off building pink dot first after all.

EDIT: Ok, perhaps my comment above could have been phrased more politely. However even with chopping and ,eventual, use of the :whipped: the library in iron city is going to take quite a while to build whilst costing us in the meantime. In which case why bother with the city now? Let's build pink dot first and make productive use of the copper for production and military.

CoL, Con, Cal all cost us 28 turns at current research rates. Myst + Med + Priest is 16 and Math 17.

I think we should go with Math and Cal as being the best path. The best way to speed up our tech is to build libraries and get Calendar.

We can found the third city in the cow,horse,spice triangle to the north of London and then we will be able to produce chariot, spear, axe combos that can pillage the AI to the ground. This city will secure our northern flank and give us more mobile defenders that do not need to worry about axes showing up. It does not need a library or monument to be productive.

Our fourth city should be on the hill North of the fortified warrior. It will be on the river for health and can work the rice, cows, iron and 2 gold with the addition of grassland farm. It will need a library that can be chopped from the plains hill.

We only need cats for taking out the really tough cities. I think we should prioritze economy and production over military so that once we start rolling, we don't have to slow down.

In which case why bother with the city now? Let's build pink dot first and make productive use of the copper for production and military.

I think it would be good to get the iron. This will give us swords to go after cities. If we leave this site for later, there is a chance Alex will settle it first. I think Lib is a good investment for this city...

CoL, Con, Cal all cost us 28 turns at current research rates. Myst + Med + Priest is 16 and Math 17.

I believe Cal requires Sailing as well. I assume this is 7-8 additional turns.

We can found the third city in the cow,horse,spice triangle to the north of London and then we will be able to produce chariot, spear, axe combos that can pillage the AI to the ground. This city will secure our northern flank and give us more mobile defenders that do not need to worry about axes showing up. It does not need a library or monument to be productive.

I like this idea :goodjob: . Those stacks-o'-three would be pretty awesome pillagers :D . Since we are not attacking anyone (maybe the odd archer sitting on a resource), the AI's will need to throw units at us to stop us. This blend will churn them up. We should be able to seriously stunt the AI's and kill any metals they may have. Maybe that lets us do "option 3" (build a bigger base before going to war) without the AIs getting away from us.

Our fourth city should be on the hill North of the fortified warrior. It will be on the river for health and can work the rice, cows, iron and 2 gold with the addition of grassland farm. It will need a library that can be chopped from the plains hill.

The hill north of the warrior excludes the gold. They would be outside the BFC.

So! We are still pretty far from a clear consensus on our plan :lol: . Lots of great ideas though, so I think this is very healthy conversation. Let me try to recap and focus our decisions again:

Decision 1: Given Erik's suggestion on pillaging, we should recheck on "option 1, 2, or 3". Not sure we had a great consensus before, even less sure now. Option 1: Attack asap, raze everything. Option 2: Attack now, keep capitals and outstanding cities. Option 3: Hold off, build 2-3 more cities, pillage in the mean time. Then roll.

Decision 2: Tech path. CoL, Calendar, or Const next? (Actually, the answer to this may depend on the outcome of decision 1).

Decision 3: Which city is next? I think we have three options here. Pink dot, near the iron, northern city for horses.

Decision 4: Where do we site iron city?

My current votes:

Decision 1: I'm moving away from the axe rush options in favor of option 3. We have room to expand to build a better base. Mark has pointed out that we can defend some pinch points in the mountains, so we can repel invaders for a while. We have metals and horses available to do some nasty pillaging. If we get iron city up and beeline to calendar, we will have an economic monster... 4 gold mines, 2 dyes, and 2 spices :drool: . We might be rushing AI archers with maces or knights instead of axes... and if we end up needing astonomy to win the game, we will be glad we built a science base.

Decision 2: Given my vote for option 3, then calendar is next. Also, we will want to get a library up in London after all the settlers are done (and some axes are build to kill the barbs). Calendar will also allow us to use all these bananas lying around to zoom our population and use the whip.

Decision 3: I still like settling iron next. Lib first, mine the gold, grab iron for those future knights. Horse city next to get pillagers out. Pink last.

Decision 4: Still like settling on the cows. Two gold is huge. If we beeline calendar, then the bananas are really good too.

Decision 1 - Looking at things again, lets settle the cows and take a stack of axes to take and keep the horse/elephant city that Alex has built, if we don't then the cow city will become an AI magnet and we will have a hard time defending the city and the iron. It's also a shorter border than the northern horse.

Decision 2 - Calendar

Decision 3 - Cow city

Decision 4 See 1 & 3.

Decision 1: Given Erik's suggestion on pillaging, we should recheck on "option 1, 2, or 3". Not sure we had a great consensus before, even less sure now. Option 1: Attack asap, raze everything. Option 2: Attack now, keep capitals and outstanding cities. Option 3: Hold off, build 2-3 more cities, pillage in the mean time. Then roll.


I think option 3 has to be the choice here.


Decision 2: Tech path. CoL, Calendar, or Const next? (Actually, the answer to this may depend on the outcome of decision 1).


Calendar which will get us Sailing on the way.


Decision 3: Which city is next? I think we have three options here. Pink dot, near the iron, northern city for horses.


Northern city for horses. The main reason for this choice is that it gives us a fairly quick payback which iron city most certainly will not, especially if we site the city on the cows.


Decision 4: Where do we site iron city?


I still think we should site it 1W of the cows since it secures us the iron immediately. If the majority want a better city then site it on the cows and build a library. However it will take quite a while to get the iron and some other civ could still acquire it in the interim.

My dotmap would like this.

Forget about the fish. We do not want to build any boats soon, so this goodie is out of question. I also think that the iron is not defensible. The AI loves to pillage, so how many units do we want to fortify there to prevent pillaging ?

I do not want a lib. I do not want to see any other structures than granaries and barracks until we can build courts and our continent is clear. I want units. First of all I want workers. These are the units to build empires. :)

I do not want a lib. I do not want to see any other structures than granaries and barracks until we can build courts and our continent is clear. I want units. First of all I want workers. These are the units to build empires. :)

So how would you see the builds and tech research for the next 10 or 20 turns?

I would go with math for the next set.

We are still not agreed where the next city goes. I would be for the horse city.

It looks to me like we are all more or less in agreement on building some more cities and researching math. The placement of the next city is the major question in our minds. It could be copper, horses or iron. My read on the discussion is that horse city is slightly more popular. I am ok with that. We can leave the placement of the iron city for a turnset. At that point we can expect the AI to start showing up with a few troops. London can produce an archer and a settler for the horse city while continues to to build a barracks. York might build the archer and London the settler. The barracks there could wait a few cycles while we build up our defense.
@markh - are you ready to take a turnset or do you want to leave it for HB?

I will play tomorrow morning going for the horses.

I am back now, but markh should carry on while I catch up on what has been going on.

IBT : damn, forgot to change research

1) 1000BC : change research to math
move a warrior towards horse city for fogbusting to avoid getting a barb city there

IBT : Lord MyGauley says we are the third biggest nation
London : Barracks -> axe (just one turn more than an archer)

2) 985BC : worker starts roading towards horse city
worker starts mining a grass hill for York

IBT : nothing

3) 970BC : moving units

IBT : -

4) 955BC : just moving the warrior

IBT : -

5) 940BC : worker starts another road towards the horses

IBT : -

6) 925BC : warrior arrives at spot for the horse city

IBT : London : axe -> settler

7) 910BC : worker roading goes to forrest SW of London for chopping

IBT : -

8) 895BC : axe moves out of London towards Alex city

IBT : A Greek archer and warrior appear north of his city

9) 880BC : worker starts chopping for London

IBT : York : granary -> axe

10) 865BC : move the axe into a better position, so Alex units would have to move on a grass tile to attack London

IBT : Alex raiding party turns SW after the choke

11) 850BC : nothing

As this is round number of turns I stop here.

I guess Alex units are going towards the barb city or they will want to pillage. Attacking them in the jungle or woods obviously is out of question.

BTW, I would seriously consider HBR. It is 17 turns at our current research rate and I like horse archers in AW-games.

:goodjob: Nice turnset.

HBR after Cal is alright. I want Cal asap as that's when we get to be our most productive in all our cities.

Nice going mark. :goodjob:

I think it's worth getting that barracks in York before we start training too many military there. :yup:

I'm not that convinced that the benefits of HBR outweigh the costs. :hmm: Chariots give us two move units and have 100% against axes as well. We really don't want to waste :science: on techs we don't need. After all keshiks didn't help us that much in SGOTM05.

And a :newyear: to one and all. Here's hoping for good results from this game. :please:

:snowgrin:

And a :newyear: to one and all. Here's hoping for good results from this game. :please:

Happy New Year from the Great White North :beer: as well!!!

(that's really Glenfiddich) :snowgrin:

Who's up next?

Guess who HB ! You are the one. Happy New Year to all of you ! :newyear:

Cheers, guys. :cheers:

Well, we did not use the Keshiks as we should have, Sam. We were just too slow.

I think it's worth getting that barracks in York before we start training too many military there. :yup:

This just shows how sloppy my playing was this time. Didn't change research in the preturn and did not notice that there is no barracks in York.:blush:

Any new plans from anyone?

At the moment it sounds like we are planning to:

Tech: 9 turns to maths, then sailing?
York: Axeman then Barracks?
London: Settler then Archer?
Settler: Settle horse city?

Any new plans from anyone?

At the moment it sounds like we are planning to:

Tech: 9 turns to maths, then sailing?
York: Axeman then Barracks?
London: Settler then Archer?
Settler: Settle horse city?

sounds like the plan - happy hunting!

Any new plans from anyone?


I suppose there could be a case for building a barracks in York before the axe but I'm fine with the axe first. The rest of the plan sounds fine. I presume we're now taking 10 turns(ish) per turnset?

We could continue the axe and 1 turn before completion we switch to a barracks, so we can complete the axe any time we want, although a second axe may be handy for the two Greek units. ;)

Generally 10 turns per set should be fine, but as Harbourboy missed the first round I would leave it to him to play until sailing comes in or to stop after 10 turns.

I would place two axes at the choke where the Greek units came through, otherwise it will be difficult to stop them. As you can see the two units slipped through and now it is difficult to get them in the jungle. Another one should be fortified on the plains hill at the Northern choke. That way we have better control. Furthermore the warrior at the iron should be replaced. Even if Alex builds a city there he will never send out a worker if we have a fortified unit in that position.

Any more comments? Shall I wait to hear from the mighty Hawk or just play tomorrow given that nobody has disagreed with anything said over the last few days yet?

Sorry, I've been a little tied up. Nothing to add from my part. :)

Righto, I might play tomorrow then.

Better still, I will play right now!

835 BC: The Greek Archer and Warrior move closer. I leave them as they have to move to poorly defensible tiles in order to pillage anything.

820 BC: Our Axeman kills the Greek Archer. We leave the Warrior as he has to move again to pillage anything.

805 BC: Our Warrior defends against a Barbarian Warrior. Our Axeman kills the Greek Warrior.

790 BC: A Malinese Skirmisher and Settler show up near future Horse City. See screen shot. I will stop here and ask for advice.

166940

790 BC: A Malinese Skirmisher and Settler show up near future Horse City. See screen shot. I will stop here and ask for advice.


I don't think it changes things too much. Just makes sure our worker and warrior stay out of range of the skirmisher. We have another axe finishing in 2 turns according to the SS. If Mansa founds a city then we should have enough units to raze it.

Not much you can do about it. Let's just hope he doesn't settle on the hills, so we can raze his city more easily. I would move the warrior away. If we are lucky he might settle where we want our city and we save a settler. :D

So do we wait for it reach size 2 or raze it immediately?

Depends where he settles. If it is a suitable spot I would say let it grow to size 2 and keep it, but IMO the only suitable site for us is where our fortified warrior is. I think he will settle where his units are now. In that case I would raze it as soon as possible. Pity we did not get the combo on the way there. Would have been another worker. :(

Carrying on then:

775 BC: Mansa Musa settles on hill near horses. Skirmisher on a hill, so will take some effort to remove.

760 BC: Swapped York from Axeman to Barracks. Another Barbarian warrior shows up. London: Settler => Axeman

745 BC: Mathematics => Sailing. Our Warrior defends against Barbarian warrior.

So, what do we want to do with the Settler now?

1 S of the pink dot or go for the iron has been the sticking point from the previous discussions. It will probably take us some time to resolve this so please upload the save file so we can all take a good look. Thanks !

I have uploaded the save so you can assess what to do next.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_BC0745_01.CivWarlordsSave

I would settle pink dot now and ensure that Mansa does not connect the horses. Maybe we can steal a worker. He will send one. Iron seems difficult to me as we will have a hard time to defend it. Once we have enough axes take out Mansa's city and settle our horse city.

I might as well stop here and let the next person take over. No point me picking up the save again just to play 3 or 4 more turns.

It looks like we have 4 main options:


Decide we'll keep Mansa's city where it is so in the short term we ignore it except for making sure that Mansa can't make use of the horses. Settle somewhere else.
Decide we still want our horse city in the original location. We can :whipped: the London axe for one pop. Together with the existing axe which should heal fairly shortly that should be enough to raze Mansa's city if he still only has one skirmisher. If we don't want to rush the London axe we could let the York axe finish next turn and then continue with the barracks. However the York axe won't be promoted.
Settle pink dot or 1S of pink dot.
Decide to go for the iron and agree on a location to settle.


I don't like option 1 as there's nothing worse than having an enemy that near with the risk of pillaging or worker steals. Frankly I prefer option 2 which I think is perfectly feasible. If we don't go for option 2 then option 3 is my next favourite.

IMO we have to settle. Any wasted turn not using the settler is a waste of hammers. I would go with pink dot (1W of the copper) or settle an iron city if we come to an agreement where to put it. 2 axes are not enough. We will need at least 3 + the warrior as safety to take out the city. Mansa will not be able to make use of the city at all, so I would not be that worried. It is annoying that we cannot get the horses now as chariots are quite cheap and ok for early distraction of AIs.

I think 1W of the copper is 1S of the original pink dot and still seems a good place to settle. It should work the copper to build a granary then work the bananas to grow while building a barracks.

We should station a unit to keep the horses under observation, if a worker does show up, we can grab it because of the road built there.

London should work the bananas, not the lake(or the grass forest if we want to keep the extra commerce) so it can whip when it is 1 turn from growing a new citizen. That's two turns from completing the axe so we will get a large overflow into an archer for the new city. It will need an MP and we want to use archers for that work.

Edit: Just noticed the axe has a promotion coming. CR would help with cleaning out the Mansa problem but medic would be usefull too.

I believe you are up Sam.

I am still anxious to settle the two golds to the south, but I agree we will need more units to defend all those tiles. So, copper city can be next. Definitely 1W of copper (1S of original pink dot). Once we have a few units, we can settle the gold.

I would not discount Mansa's horse city yet. Let's send an axe up and scout the one tile in FOW. If it is a food resource, then his site is much better than ours. If it is a nothing tile, then we probably need to raze his city (it is too food poor, need those cows).

Once up there, our axe can also look for a worker steal and prevent pasturing the horses.

I agree with Erik's MM suggestions for London and build order for the new city.

I'd prefer medic for the promotion. Won't be long and we will be warring with Mansa and Alex... will need the medic.

I am also anxious to settle at the gold :drool: , but I think it will be hard to defend. Once we have 4 cities up and running I think we will have enough units to settle there.

We definitely should place units at the chokes and start sending units towards Alex city near us. Maybe we can steal a worker there. He will be trying to connect the ivory.

I agree with Erik's mm hint.

Ok, I think the goals for the next set are set.

Change London to working the bananas
Settle 1W of the copper. This city should work the copper and start a granary, although I think an archer as defender might be worthwhile, too.

Mark
Harbourboy - just played
Sam - UP
AgedOne - on deck
The-Hawk
Harbourboy
Erik

One minor idea - we could try using drill2 archers to weaken city defenders rather than using axes - they are a little cheaper.

Plan for my turnset as follows:


Tech: Sailing -> Calendar.
London to work bananas instead of lake. :whipped: London axe when 1 turn left to growth. Put overflow into archer. Build axe then settler afterwards?
Settle 1W of copper.
New city to build granary whilst working copper, then work bananas whilst building barrracks.
York to finish barracks and then axe.
Scout Mansa's horse city.
Use warrior by iron to scout Alex's city?


I intend to play tomorrow afternoon if no major quibbbles.

Build axe then settler afterwards?



I think we need to be sure of clearing and keeping the horse area before starting another settler. Some axes for Alex would be better. I think we need to be more aggressive in taking it to the AI and keeping them from developing too much. Mansa will produce more settlers if his city is destroyed and we should be able to get some more workers one way or the other.

Otherwise I'm happy with the plan - Good Hunting!

Yes, I agree with Erik. We are starting to get boxed in. By the time we get a settler built, we might have nowhere left to settle. I think our next settler won't be needed until after we've cleared some nearby AI cities. Its time to go to war. Axe spam time! :D

Revised plan for my turnset as follows:


Tech: Sailing -> Calendar.
London to work bananas instead of lake. :whipped: London axe when 1 turn left to growth. Put overflow into archer. Build axes afterwards.
Settle 1W of copper.
New city to build granary whilst working copper, then work bananas whilst building barrracks.
York to finish barracks and then build axes.
Scout Mansa's horse city.
Use warrior by iron to scout Alex's city?


I intend to play this afternoon.

I'm in the familiar position of catching up with all the posts since my last visit.
[Sorry. Will try to get more involved now new year is over. Call it a resolution :)]
Also had a look at the save.

Yes, we are a bit boxed. But I'm sure that we can make a good effort at bursting out of our cage, given a good supply of axes. I wish we knew more about the overall shape of the land around us. Obviously we have a couple of very nearby cities to aim at first, but then where do we go?

Strategically, it would be ideal to take out a civ that was the only one in a particular chunk of land, and leave ourselves in the position where we only need to operate in one direction. We don't know where everyone is yet, so we don't have that insight.

I agree that the settler should be used to get our 3rd city up and productive nearby - and pink dot looks ideal for that.

We really do need to deny Mansa the use of the horses. We want them for ourselves before too long of course. Horses make for better scouting, as well as being our pillagers.

For the moment, we must scout both of those nearby cities, I think.

I'm keeping an eye open for news of your turn this afternoon, Sam.

745 BC BC - 550 BC

Summary
Nottinghan founded by copper. We have 4 axes. Timbuktu & Kumbi Saleh scouted. Lost a warrior to Mansa. Scouted Corinth. No AI axes or spears spotted so far.

Turn 117 - 745 BC
Switch London to working bananas. Send warrior NE of York on a scouting expedition around Mansa city. Worker on gold heads to copper. Promoted wounded axe with health. In retrospect I wonder if I should have done that. The warrior by the iron is sent to the gap to the NE.
Turn 118 - 730 BC
Scouting warriors continue on their path. Worker on copper heads NW.
Turn 119 - 715 BC
Warrior(N) moves to hill and spies Kumbi Saleh with 1 skirmisher and 2 warriors. Seems like we need more axes. Axe in London is :whipped:.
Turn 120 - 700 BC
London starts archer for Nottingham. Warrior(N) to NE.
Turn 121 - 685 BC
London starts axe whilst working lake. Found Nottingham which starts granary whilst working copper. Warrior(S) reaches gap and heads E. Warrior(N) continue NE.
Turn 122 - 670 BC
Warrior(S) continues E. Warrior(N) rounds mountains and heads SE. See rice to NE of Kumbi Saleh.
Turn 123 - 655 BC
Sailing -> Calendar. Warrior(S) heads SW. Warrior(N) continues SE.
Turn 124 - 640 BC
Warrior(S) to S. Warrior(N) heads SE.
Turn 125 - 625 BC
London starts aother axe. Warrior(N) continues SE. Warrior(S) continues S.
Turn 126 - 610 BC
Warrior(S) to SE and spy Corinth. Warrior(N) continues SE. Kumbi Saleh's forces have increased.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM06/Corinth-610BC.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM06/KumbiSaleh-610BC.jpg

Turn 127 - 595 BC
York starts an axe. WarriorS) to SW. Warrior(N) to S and Timbuktu is found.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM06/Timbuktu-595BC.jpg

Turn 128 - 580 BC
Warrior(N) to S. Warrior(S) to NW. Barb archer to N.
IBT: Mansa seems to be touchy about his privacy and kills our warrior. :(
Turn 129 - 565 BC
Move some axes to N of London. Warrior(S) heads back towards the cows.
Turn 130 - 550 BC
The barb archer provides an easy source of XP.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_BC0550_01.CivWarlordsSave


Turn 121, 685 BC: Nottingham has been founded.

Turn 122, 670 BC: You have discovered Sailing!

Turn 125, 625 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in York. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 128, 580 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher (4.00) vs Churchill's Warrior (2.50)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Combat Odds: 97.6%
Turn 128, 580 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Churchill's Warrior is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 128, 580 BC: Mansa Musa's Skirmisher has defeated Churchill's Warrior!
Turn 128, 580 BC: While defending, your Warrior was destroyed by a Malinese Skirmisher!

Turn 129, 565 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!

Turn 130, 550 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 130, 550 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Combat Odds: 95.7%
Turn 130, 550 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 130, 550 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!





Turn 117/660 (745 BC) [03-Jan-2008 18:04:23]
Axeman promoted: Medic I
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 118/660 (730 BC) [05-Jan-2008 13:49:06]
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Furious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 119/660 (715 BC) [05-Jan-2008 13:52:32]
London grows: 5
London finishes: Axeman

Turn 120/660 (700 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:00:11]
London begins: Archer (4 turns)
A Cottage was built near London
London finishes: Archer

Turn 121/660 (685 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:02:35]
London begins: Axeman (6 turns)
Nottingham founded
Nottingham begins: Granary (90 turns)
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Annoyed' to

'Furious'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'

Turn 122/660 (670 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:11:17]
Tech learned: Sailing

Turn 123/660 (655 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:20:03]
Research begun: Calendar (21 Turns)

Turn 124/660 (640 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:23:14]
London finishes: Axeman

Turn 125/660 (625 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:25:32]
London begins: Axeman (6 turns)
York finishes: Barracks

Turn 126/660 (610 BC) [05-Jan-2008 14:28:12]
A Cottage was built near Nottingham
York finishes: Axeman

Turn 127/660 (595 BC) [05-Jan-2008 15:01:27]
York begins: Axeman (8 turns)
A Mine was built near London
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Churchill(England), from 'Furious' to

'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 128/660 (580 BC) [05-Jan-2008 15:05:54]
While defending in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Warrior loses to: Malinese Skirmisher

(3.40/4) (Prob Victory: 2.4%)

Turn 129/660 (565 BC) [05-Jan-2008 15:09:50]

Turn 130/660 (550 BC) [05-Jan-2008 15:13:39]
While attacking in English territory near London, Axeman defeats (5.00/5): Barbarian

Archer (Prob Victory: 95.7%)

I'm in the familiar position of catching up with all the posts since my last visit.
[Sorry. Will try to get more involved now new year is over. Call it a resolution :)]


I was a fair way through my turn when I spotted your post. Fortunately your suggestions didn't contradict my actions. :lol:

Warrior(N) rounds mountains and heads SE. See rice to NE of Kumbi Saleh.

Sweet! :D I was hoping for this. I think Kumbi is a keeper. Between the extra hammer from the plains hill and the hammers from the stone tile, this is a better site than the cows. Saves us a settler to boot.

I'll look at the save later, but my current knee-jerk reaction:

- We need to avoid a multi-front war. The choke points to the south mean we can keep Alex at bay with minimal units. Therefore, I think Mansa is first to go. If we go for Alex first, we will have to defend a broad front with Mansa.
- First target is barb city to get some early axe promotions.
- Next target is Kumbi... gets us horses to start some pillaging activities.

I've sort of lost track of where we stand with teching. I know we said we'd head for calendar next. I'm wondering if we should do construction next (unless we are close to completion on calendars). Kumbi won't be hard to take, but those skirmishers in Timbuktu are gonna suck without cats. We are gonna need a pile of axes to kill 4 skirmishers on a culture-rich, hilltop capital without cats. Gonna take forever to build a pile, especially since we need to leave some units to defend our southern front. (On the other hand, maybe he is building a settler and two of the skirmishers will be leaving?)

Are we going to build no wonders?

Sweet! :D I was hoping for this. I think Kumbi is a keeper. Between the extra hammer from the plains hill and the hammers from the stone tile, this is a better site than the cows. Saves us a settler to boot.


Ermm... Kumbi needs a cultural expansion to work the rice so you may want to reconsider your joy. :cry:


- We need to avoid a multi-front war. The choke points to the south mean we can keep Alex at bay with minimal units. Therefore, I think Mansa is first to go. If we go for Alex first, we will have to defend a broad front with Mansa.
- First target is barb city to get some early axe promotions.
- Next target is Kumbi... gets us horses to start some pillaging activities.


I suppose it depends what you mean by a multi-front war. Rather than trying to take out one civ at a time we may find it better to weaken civs at the same time. The choke points to the south are not as tight as you might think. I was able to go direct to the cows from Corinth through the dip in the mountains.

I can agree with barb city first. However Corinth has less defenders and is on the flat.


I've sort of lost track of where we stand with teching. I know we said we'd head for calendar next. I'm wondering if we should do construction next (unless we are close to completion on calendars).


Calendar still has a number of turns to go IIRC.

Are we going to build no wonders?

It seems fairly clear that some of the other teams did but my gut feeling is that we needed to go for them earlier.

Strategically, it would be ideal to take out a civ that was the only one in a particular chunk of land, and leave ourselves in the position where we only need to operate in one direction. We don't know where everyone is yet, so we don't have that insight.


- We need to avoid a multi-front war. The choke points to the south mean we can keep Alex at bay with minimal units. Therefore, I think Mansa is first to go. If we go for Alex first, we will have to defend a broad front with Mansa.
- First target is barb city to get some early axe promotions.
- Next target is Kumbi... gets us horses to start some pillaging activities.



Now that's what I meant to say! Rambling on about operating in one direction after taking out the only civ in a chunk of land. Tcha! Avoiding a multi-front war.

Yes. I agree with all of this.
1. Barb city goes.
2. Kumbi becomes ours.
3. Ride horses around, creating havoc.
4. Operate on a single front.

Ermm... Kumbi needs a cultural expansion to work the rice so you may want to reconsider your joy. :cry:


Not a bit ;). It is still a good site. Gives us the horses right away, that is the critical short term item. First citizen can work the horse. Eventually it will grow to 2 and we can work a forest. With the plains hill under the city, this is a decent production city. We might skip granary (since we will be stagnent) and go right to barracks followed by a steady stream of units.

Eventually, we'll need a source of culture... once we capture a city with religion, we can adopt it and hope we get lucky with it spreading. Worse case, we adopt caste system after we have CoL (which is not too far off) and work an artist specialist for a few turns.

Bottom line for me, I almost never give up a better long term site because I need a culture pop and settle for a worse site that does not need a culture pop. Only exception is if I need to get a strategic resource immediately, and that is not the issue here.

I suppose it depends what you mean by a multi-front war. Rather than trying to take out one civ at a time we may find it better to weaken civs at the same time. The choke points to the south are not as tight as you might think. I was able to go direct to the cows from Corinth through the dip in the mountains.

I can agree with barb city first. However Corinth has less defenders and is on the flat.

We will need to plan out our defenses carefully. With all the jungle and hills around, we want them to be attacking our units on favorable terrain, not the other way around.

I think we will want to conquer one AI at a time... one invasion force, not two. However, I agree we will want to send out pillaging units. Some horses in their homelands might keep the AI's from sending as many invaders.

Let me look at the save before I comment on Corinth. One way or the other, we need horses.


Are we going to build no wonders?

If the AIs were not close, I could have been talked into CS slingshot. Pyramids would be nice, but that would be way too many hammers. We need to build military and kick some butt.

Once we control of our continent, we might try for Gr Lib to launch our research (towards astronomy). Time will tell...

Calendar is the priority because we want to out tech the AI and Cal will give us a significant boost in production and commerce. With that in mind, the workers should be roading to the dye,spices and clearing the land in preparation for building plantations, they should not be building cottages that we won't be working for a long time. The grass N of the cows by York should be a farm so that we can work the plains hill and not a cottage.

We have enough units now to set up the killing fields around London. We should remove all units from London and invite the AI to come along. This will reduce the number of units in their cities and gain valuable promotions for our troops. we can atack Kumbi Saleh after it has reduced it's troop strength and gotten a religion. While the AI are throwing away :hammers: to train our troops we can send some axe/archer pairs to keep them backward.

Skirmishers won't stand up to Maces.

We will have a great capital once we get CS. What we need is a religion so that we can produce culture in our cities. After we get Cal we should go either Currency - CoL or Myst, Poly, Priest, CoL.

The next turn set should whip a library in London and hook up the Cal resources ready for Cal. Another worker in London after the Library will help. In the meantime we scout Alex with stronger units and try to find Hannibal. The priority now should not be taking cities, the priority sshould be preventing the AI from developing.

London should have been working the bananas and the mined hill and not the lake/grassland forest.

We will win this game by making more effective use our resources and teching past the AI. We don't need wonders, we just need to be efficient.

We need to either found a religion or capture and keep a city with a religion so let's not rush out and start taking those cities that are close. Corinth has a camp on the elephants. we should take that out now with an axe/archer team.

Cross post with The-Hawk but everything still goes

I believe I'm next up. I opened the save and all seemed to be OK.

Here's where I think we are, based on the recent posts:



Research

continue with Calendar
follow with Currency – CoL (Might be in time to found Confucianism?) - CS


Builds
London

Completes Axe in 1
Start Library (whip when about to grow)
Worker
Axes


York

Completes Axe in 4
Axes


Nottingham

Completes Granary in 6
Axes


Worker actions

Leave cottages for now
Road to W & E Dyes and E Spices
Clear jungle from E Dyes and Spices


Citizens
London

Works bananas & N mined hill instead of lake and forest
Also goldmine, pasture, SW mined hill

York

Works rice, goldmine, mined hill

Nottingham

Works coppermine


Attack targets
There seem to be different schools of thought on this.
One looks like this:

(optional) Train our axes by destroying Parthian
Head for Corinth with 4 or 5 axes and 1 archer
Take and hold Corinth – useful for religion, ivory, horses


Another goes like:

(optional) Train our axes by destroying Parthian
Head for Kumbi with 7 or 8 axes and 1 archer
Take and hold Kumbi to use the horses


We'll have to decide which one we like best.

Defence strategy
This may depend on which attack strategy we are using, but possibly:

Empty London of military to encourage AI on to the offensive
Place units alongside key ‘killing fields’ to ambush and destroy the incoming units


Here are some possible killing fields to the North and South:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Northern_defence_trap.jpg

A is primarily a defensive spot if Mansa tries to attack from the forest, but can mop up any who approach via the grass or plains.
B & C ambush any who arrive on the flat beside them.
D is ready to jump into London as a backstop.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/22131/Southern_defence_trap.jpg
A is purely for defence.
B & C are there to hit Alex's units that walk out into the open.

I'd like to hear any thoughts on these.

I have never heard of this idea of leaving the capital unguarded. It sounds dodgy. Does it work?

I have never heard of this idea of leaving the capital unguarded. It sounds dodgy. Does it work?

I think it was erik's idea. Does it do anything apart giving us 1 :mad: for no protection? Perhaps erik can tell us?

Nottingham

Completes Granary in 6
Axes



I thought the idea was to build a barracks whilst working the bananas after the granary?

I think it was erik's idea. Does it do anything apart giving us 1 :mad: for no protection? Perhaps erik can tell us?

Yup, from a certain size the people want a military unit, otherwise the city will get unhappy before it reaches the happy cap.

Yup, from a certain size the people want a military unit, otherwise the city will get unhappy before it reaches the happy cap.

The AI can see how many units you have in your cities. If a city is empty, they will send units to take the city. Mansa will likely send his two warriors from Kumba as soon as the axe blocking the road is moved back. The AI will not attack units, just try to manover into the city.
Yes it will cause an :mad: citizen but with the cal resources London will have enough happies for a long time.

@Aged One - the plan is good but I would consider some spears and archers in the mix. One of each should be in every attack or pillaging stack to discourage AI attacks.

I thought the idea was to build a barracks whilst working the bananas after the granary?
Oops. Yes. I missed this one. I'll update the plan.

I think it was erik's idea. Does it do anything apart giving us 1 :mad: for no protection? Perhaps erik can tell us?

Yup, from a certain size the people want a military unit, otherwise the city will get unhappy before it reaches the happy cap.

To be quite honest, I think offence is going to be our best defence here. This 'ambush' strategy is only viable if we're planning to stay put for a while and not try anything of our own.

As I understand, leaving the capital undefended is meant to entice the AI into risky attacks (I don't know this from personal experience). The plan is that we can kill the enemy while they are out in the open, while gaining promotions for our own units, and they may leave their cities more lightly defended than normal, allowing us a better chance of taking them.

I have absolutely no experience with this strategy, so I don't know how well it works, or whether there are other factors involved - like how far into the game, number of cities, distance of enemy. etc.



(cross-posted with erikthecelt.
Yes, I'll update the plan to include a mix of spears and archers in the builds)

To be quite honest, I think offence is going to be our best defence here. This 'ambush' strategy is only viable if we're planning to stay put for a while and not try anything of our own.

As I understand, leaving the capital undefended is meant to entice the AI into risky attacks (I don't know this from personal experience). The plan is that we can kill the enemy while they are out in the open, while gaining promotions for our own units, and they may leave their cities more lightly defended than normal, allowing us a better chance of taking them.

I have absolutely no experience with this strategy, so I don't know how well it works, or whether there are other factors involved - like how far into the game, number of cities, distance of enemy. etc.
(cross-posted with erikthecelt)

I've used this a lot as a way to clear out stacks from AI cities. It works pretty much all game, although I will usually use a captured AI city as bait once I start rolling. The AI will only keep 2 units in any city if there is an easy target around. With the so-called improved AI, they will build huge stacks of units if you try seige tactics.

We don't have enough units yet for an offensive, so while we are building up our unit strength we can use this technique to weaken the AI. Pillaging is also a must. Until we get chariots, swords and cats going we have to slow down the AI by eliminating resources especially miltary and happy ones.

Edit: Neither Corinth or Kumba have a religion yet, I would like them to catch one before we take them.

I've used this a lot as a way to clear out stacks from AI cities. It works pretty much all game, although I will usually use a captured AI city as bait once I start rolling. The AI will only keep 2 units in any city if there is an easy target around. With the so-called improved AI, they will build huge stacks of units if you try seige tactics.

We don't have enough units yet for an offensive, so while we are building up our unit strength we can use this technique to weaken the AI. Pillaging is also a must. Until we get chariots, swords and cats going we have to slow down the AI by eliminating resources especially miltary and happy ones.

I'm quite willing to give this strategy a try, as long as the rest of the team are not against it. Obviously, in my 10-ish turns I'll just be setting the groundworks and won't see it in operation yet.

Edit: Neither Corinth or Kumba have a religion yet, I would like them to catch one before we take them.

I think Corinth does have a religion, as seen in Sam's post during his turnset when he scouted the city out.

I think Corinth does have a religion, as seen in Sam's post during his turnset when he scouted the city out.

You are right, I missed the little hindu symbol on the map. Makes it a valuable city to keep. It also makes the Myst/Med/ Priest path to CoL a better route than the Currency one.

You are right, I missed the little hindu symbol on the map. Makes it a valuable city to keep. It also makes the Myst/Med/ Priest path to CoL a better route than the Currency one.

I was coming round to this way of thinking, too. The only benefit of getting currency is the extra trade, and I think the ability to use the religions via Myst/Med/Priest is probably going to outweigh that.

Attack targets
There seem to be different schools of thought on this.
One looks like this:

(optional) Train our axes by destroying Parthian
Head for Corinth with 4 or 5 axes and 1 archer
Take and hold Corinth – useful for religion, ivory, horses


Another goes like:

(optional) Train our axes by destroying Parthian
Head for Kumbi with 7 or 8 axes and 1 archer
Take and hold Kumbi to use the horses


We'll have to decide which one we like best.


Ideally the sequence of Parthian -> Corinth -> Kumbi Saleh sounds attractive to me. However I suspect that we can't manage the number of units required in the near future. In that case I think I prefer Parthian -> Corinth in the short term. This weakens Alex whilst also giving time for Kumbi Saleh to grow to 2 before we take it.

Right. Most likely I'll play tomorrow evening my time - so in a little over 24 hours from now.
That way we can give folks like Hawk and HB chances to pitch in with ideas.

Some things that will have an immediate impact on my turnset are

Shall I empty London and set up ambush squads?
Shall I sharpen my axes on Parthian?

I have no specific comments to make on these tactics as some of them are beyond my experience. My experience of Always War is that the AI comes after you in droves, no matter who you have in your capital.

Some things that will have an immediate impact on my turnset are

Shall I empty London and set up ambush squads?
Shall I sharpen my axes on Parthian?


With our current unit numbers I think the two cannot take place concurrently. I suggest taking out Parthian first. After that we can try emptying London whilst continuing to build up the military.

We still need a decision of whether to go for Corinth or Kumbi Saleh first.

Regarding research, do we really want to skip construction for that long ? Especially if we take Corinth we can have cats and phants relatively soon. :trouble:

Regarding research, do we really want to skip construction for that long ? Especially if we take Corinth we can have cats and phants relatively soon. :trouble:

I thought you wanted to raise the AI cities, not keep them? I think the arguement against Construction before CoL is that we can't afford to keep the cities we take without building courthouses.

The critical question is do we need cats in order to start taking AI cities. I think it's clear that we can take Corinth without cats and we could take Kumbi if it had fewer defenders. I would like to see a stronger economy before we start taking AI cities. I think we have to be very careful about teching in this game because we can not make up any shortfalls by trading or extorting techs from the AI. IF our ECONOMY crashes the AI will destroy us with tech trading.

If we do take Corinth now, then we should build the iron city on the cows. We will also need a long road through the jungle in order to be able to build the elephants.

I think the first wave of troops should spread out and soften up the enemy. Make sure they do not develop. It's no good wiping out Alex and Mansa if Hannibal turns up to have a stack of LB's and XB's. A full frontal press is IMO the best tactic. Let the second wave start taking the cities with cats and swords once we have crippled their economies.

That's why I said "IF...". ;) I am still for razing in general, although Kumbi Saleh is a keeper as this saves us a settler for our horse city. Still I highly favor cats in war games as soon as possible as they reduce unit losses considerably. I usually dedicate one city for just building cats, so I have a constant supply of them. Nevertheless currency, col next is alright with me.

Nevertheless currency, col next is alright with me.

We were leaning towards Myst ... CoL as being faster and more useful once we get a religion. Currency is not really useful until we want to get Guilds. Monastaries will solve our culture problem.

Edit: I agree, cats reduce losses when attacking cities, but I don't want to start attacking the cities yet, I would rather starve them first.

Ah, yes, Just reread everything. I missed that part when I read it yesterday evening. I am ok with that approach.

I usually do construction first to be able to build an army with cats while researching col. Once col comes in I can get my army rolling. In our approach we will have col, but no effective army. With finishing cal next and hooking up the resources we will generate a lot of cash funding at least 2 - 3 more cities without hurting our research. Still I try to keep the AIs from developing. That is a must.

BTW I would move the unit at Corinth 2E in the jungle beside the horses to see whether he has hooked them up. The forrest and jungle gives the unit some protection. In the open E, SE it might be attacked if Alex gathered some units in Corinth already.

BTW I would move the unit at Corinth 2E in the jungle beside the horses to see whether he has hooked them up.

The horses weren't connected earlier, nor was there any sign of a worker when I scouted in that area. However that was probably 5 turns ago.

I usually do construction first to be able to build an army with cats while researching col. Once col comes in I can get my army rolling. In our approach we will have col, but no effective army. With finishing cal next and hooking up the resources we will generate a lot of cash funding at least 2 - 3 more cities without hurting our research. Still I try to keep the AIs from developing. That is a must.


I usually do construction first when I can make up the lost time on getting to CS by trading with the AI. In this game I have a clear set of priorities.

1. Build our economy and production base.
2. Prevent the AI from building a strong economy
3. Build an army for capturing and holding AI cities (Domination)

I think we have done well on priority 1. I think most of the team has my number 3 priority as number 2 and do not have a number 3.

Teching to CoL and eventually CS is top of my list. Adding extra cities is also part of this. The idea of luring the AI into attacking London supports priorities 2 and 3. Delaying the attacks on the AI cities in favour of pillaging resources and hopefully settler parties is key to this strategy.

OK guys. I've been catching up with the discussions since I last stated the plan for my turnset this evening.

It looks like the main new points that have arisen that will affect the plans are these:

1. Do we go for Construction ahead of CoL?
As I see it, we're still OK with CoL first, although markh is uneasy and would prefer to see some cats around, while erikthecelt rates the economic impact of CoL higher than the military impact of Const.

2. Do we attack an AI city soon, or delay?
erikthecelt has outlined his desired plan for enticing the AI onto our axes - part of a bigger strategy to wreck the AI productivity through pillage before we turn to city attack. I feel this question is unresolved and needs to be before I can start play. I'm happy to try it, but what say the rest of us?


I'll evidently need to play a few more turns before we'll have enough units to begin either approach. We'll either need an attack force or 6 or 7, or an equally sizeable ambush force, before we can move.

I'll incorporate a bit of horse-linkup spying into my plan.

Need some decisions before I play, though, which will either be in an hour or two - or tomorrow if we can't decide.

Need some decisions before I play, though, which will either be in an hour or two - or tomorrow if we can't decide.

It seems to me that a number of the team have diverging ideas about the way ahead. That being the case I believe we need to suspend playing until we all agree how we intend the game to proceed.

I am fine with col before construction.:) It is just a different approach to what I usually do.

Given the few units we have going for a city does not make much sense, so scouting and pillaging where possible seems to be the way to go. Make sure that nobody connects the horses to build any chariots.

Research

continue with Calendar
follow with Myst – Medi – Priest – CoL - CS


Builds
London

Completes Axe in 1
Start Library (whip when about to grow)
Worker
Axes ( + Spear / Archer)


York

Completes Axe in 4
Axes ( + Spear / Archer)


Nottingham

Completes Granary in 6
Barracks


Worker actions

Leave cottages for now
Road to W & E Dyes and E Spices
Clear jungle from E Dyes and Spices


Citizens
London

Works bananas & N mined hill instead of lake and forest
Also goldmine, pasture, SW mined hill

York

Works rice, goldmine, mined hill

Nottingham

Works coppermine
After granary, works bananas


Military Strategy

Train our axes by destroying Parthian
When we have sufficient military:

Empty London of military to encourage AI on to the offensive
Place units alongside key ‘killing fields’ to ambush and destroy the incoming units

Send additional units to ensure no-one hooks up their horses


How do we feel about this?
It's getting a bit late, so I'm probably going to play when I get in from work tomorrow evening now.

I would combine the two points being discussed as they are complementary.

If we want to attack and take cities then Construction after Calendar would be my strategy.

If we want to build a stronger economic base before taking cities then it makes sense to go for CoL before Construction and start a pillaging campaign immediately.

Corinth can be taken with 4 axes and an archer. Kumba needs 8 axes and an archer to take it (3 axes per skirmisher + 1 axe per warrior + archer to hold).
We also need units to defend London.

We can take and hold Kumba without too big an economic cost but Corinth will hurt us. If we let Corinth grow and we learn CoL then we can whip a courthouse and continue to tech reasonably. I think we have to get to CS before we can afford more than 4 cities, so what do we do in the meantime?

That's why I think a campaign of pillaging is more likely to get us to a faster win than starting to take out AI cities now. If we take and raise cities we are throwing away hammers that we can't afford to lose.

While we are waiting for CoL we can build the cow city in preparation for later expasion. It would become the holy city and expand very quickly to take in the iron and gold. It can also build a barracks and granary so it's ready to start producing units quickly. But this should wait until we have begun the pillaging and find Hannibal.

Sorry for gassing on about this guys, I guess I have to learn how to formulate these ideas clearly so that we can reach a better understanding.

cross post with Aged One.

I would leave Parthian alone and focus on pillaging Corinth. It's much better long term to keep the horses and elephants away from Alex. We train the axes with warriors that come from Kumba.

Corinth can be taken with 4 axes and an archer. Kumba needs 8 axes and an archer to take it (3 axes per skirmisher + 1 axe per warrior + archer to hold).
We also need units to defend London.

We can take and hold Kumba without too big an economic cost but Corinth will hurt us.



While we are waiting for CoL we can build the cow city in preparation for later expasion.


Maybe I'm missing something obvious here but these two statements seem to contradict each other. As far as I can tell the future location of cow city and Corinth are at roughly the same distance from London so their cost is likely to be similar. Especially since Corinth is on the river and will be connected to London. Taking Corinth is not necessarily what we want to do now but it is an option.

I don't have a problem with pillaging. In fact I seem to remember advocating pillaging of multiple civs not that long ago. However I believe we need to get a better feel for what the plan is for the next three or four turnsets.

One possible plan could be:

Keep building axes with the exception of a library for London.
Take & raze Parthian.
Send two or three axes to pillage around Corinth and scout further south to deteemine the extent of Alex's land and find Hanny.
Once we have a few more axes and Kumbi has grown to 2 then we can try emptying London and see if Kumbi's military can be tempted out.
When we feel we have sufficient axes then we can start a settler for cow city.


or maybe we agree a different plan. However at present I don't believe we have an agreed plan/strategy.

Corinth would be the 5th city and it's size 4 so it would be more expensive than a 4th city of size one even though it's the same distance from London. I would not take Corinth unless we take Kumbi first. We would have too much to defend against. Every unit we build now will start to cost us money (we get 12 free and we have reached that limit).

In 4 or 5 turns we will 7 axes (this includes the southern scout) unless we build a couple of archers in London after the current axe completes. We need them to generate revenue.

In principle, I agree we should build a economic base and pillage in the short term. Then go for domination with a more advanced unit such as macemen. I think we have to assume we will need astronomy (or we'd met the other AI's by now) this means we need a strong research base. Besides, I think it is already a bit late for a real "rush" especially with those skirmishers.

Not sure I agree with the approach though. My concerns:


I don't think 3 cities is sufficient for building an economic base (even though London will be outstanding once we have calendars). Pretty soon the AIs will have 5-6 cities and we will start to lose ground. Remember, we can only pillage those AI's we've met. If there are AI's on another continent, they may run away.
Pillaging will be much better with horses, especially if we can unhook their metal so they can't build too many spears. Foot solders will take too long working their way around.
Researching to CS from three cities will take forever. We will need to whup on some AI's by then.
If we are going to build an economic base, then all the more reason to settle on the cows. What better way to zoom our tech than add two gold mines? Matter of fact, Kumbi has spice once it expands. Those two cities will more than pay for their incremental maintenance.


I think I'm leaning towards:


Follow calendar with Constr... we need cats. Follow Constr with CoL for courthouses and caste (and culture expansion).
Spam axes
Raze the barb city
Raze Corinth with axes (if we have cats before we are ready to go for Corinth, we go for Kumbi first). Corinth is not a bad spot, but I think a little further south is better. So, I vote burn Corinth and save the maintenance.
Capture Kumbi with cats and axes and keep it for the horses and spice.
Raze whatever city Alex builds by the gold/iron, then settle the cows. All those leftover axes from our rush can provide ample protection to the mines.
Hunker down, run our powerful base with 4 gold, 2 dyes, 2 spices, switch our production cities to chariots and pillage to our hearts content.
Opportunistically expand once we have CoL and courthouses. I.e. add a few more good cities to our core. An obvious early candidate is near Corinth's current location with all those nice floodplains.
Research CS, followed by machinery for maces... kick AI butt.

Oh, almost forgot. As far as the empty-capital, lure them in strategy. I've decided to try the AW HOF gauntlet and HB is right. They seem to want to come in big numbers and from several directions. I'm not sure we can depend on single units on the "x's" in our previous maps, they might get overwhelmed. However, we don't want to distract too many units to play defense. Regardless of how we set up our defenses (empty capital, choke points, whatever), we need to plan it out carefully to provide ample coverage. Roads everywhere will help a lot. Also, when we have time we should chop down any jungles next to our cities.

no point :deadhorse: let's raise Corinth and take Kumbi.

HB is right.

I know I am right (for once). If there is one thing that has definitely happened in that AW gauntlet, it is that the AI comes in enormous numbers, constantly.

Are we now looking at this, then?


Research
continue with Calendar
follow by heading for Construction
then go Myst - Medi - Priest - CoLBuilds
London
Completes Axe in 1
Start Library (whip when about to grow)
Worker
Axes ( + Spear / Archer)York
Completes Axe in 4
Axes ( + Spear / Archer)Nottingham
Completes Granary in 6
BarracksWorker actions
Leave cottages for now
Road to W & E Dyes and E Spices
Clear jungle from E Dyes and SpicesCitizens
London
Works bananas & N mined hill instead of lake and forest
Also goldmine, pasture, SW mined hillYork
Works rice, goldmine, mined hillNottingham
Works coppermine
After granary, works bananasMilitary Strategy
Train our axes by destroying Parthian
When we have a force of 4 axes, 1 archer march on Corinth and raze it
When we have a force of 8 axes, 1 archer march on Kumbi and take it.

Does anybody know how the priorities are for AIs in regards to barbs ? Do they go for barbs first or for the human player ? If they have a priority for barbs we may want to leave Parthian, so we can destroy the AI units on the way there. Alex' first 2 units seemed to be most interested to get to the barb city and ignored London.

Does anybody know how the priorities are for AIs in regards to barbs ? Do they go for barbs first or for the human player ? If they have a priority for barbs we may want to leave Parthian, so we can destroy the AI units on the way there. Alex' first 2 units seemed to be most interested to get to the barb city and ignored London.


The AI get's to know where your capital is and what units are inside (according to what I've read in the forums and observed in the game). The units avoided the capital because it was defended. Had the capital been empty they would have moved towards the capital. From what I have observed, the AI will go for the weakest available target but it will pillage everything before attacking a city.

Does is make sense then to leave Parthian as it is as a bait ? Let the AI walk through our territory, so we slaughter them at our ease. :D Once our borders are farther away this will not be necessary any more of course, but for the time being Parthian would not give us much and it does not hurt us either, so why should we invest units in taking/razing that city ?

Does is make sense then to leave Parthian as it is as a bait ? Let the AI walk through our territory, so we slaughter them at our ease. :D Once our borders are farther away this will not be necessary any more of course, but for the time being Parthian would not give us much and it does not hurt us either, so why should we invest units in taking/razing that city ?

York or Nottingham will be the AI targets, they both have fewer defenders than Parthian. I agree that it's a waste of time to attack Parthian now. This is game of tempo, anything that slows us down from attacking the AI now that we have chosen that strategy is a waste. Let Parthian rot.

Agree. :yup: We should take care of Corinth soonish. Alex has hooked up the ivory and gets some happiness he does not deserve. It should be pillaged asap.

What concerns me is Hanni. He can develop too freely, but nothing much we can do about at the moment.

Let Parthian rot.

OK. Final (?) refinement to the plan. Ignore Parthian. Once we have the right number of units we are off to visit Corinth and won't be sending Alex a greetings card.
Expect I'll play in 2 or 3 hours time.

Summary

Mounted the attack on Corinth. Took and Razed it.
Mansa has suicided a couple of warriors on our axemen, and is now probing our defences.
Otherwise it was quite pedestrian. I played an extra turn so I could have the excitement of taking Corinth.

Turnset Detail

T130 (550BC)
Made citizen changes. Sent workers off to new jobs.
Started preparing Corinth attack-force (while leaving some force in the north to splat Mansa if he tries anything)

IBT
Barbs loitering to the north. Warriors! Make good axe practice if they come any closer.

T131 (535BC)
Alex has a trireme off the coast - but that shouldn't worry us.
Continued troop movements south.
Axes enter Corinth borders to check that horses are still unpastured. Yes. Good.
Workers begin roading the west dyes.
London completes axeman, starts Library.

T132 (520BC)
Barb walked up too close. Very quickly splatted. Not quite good enough for promotion, though.

T133 (505BC)
Boring. Troops walking.

T134 (490BC)
York completed Axeman. Started another.
Workers both on the eastern dyes and spices now.
Drop research rate to 80%. The latest unit builds mean we were losing 3gpt. Now breaking even.

T135 (475BC)
Now have 3 axes, 1 archer outside Corinth borders. Another axe is en-route.

T136 (460BC)
Nottingham's granary completed. Start working bananas. Start building Barracks.

T137 (445BC)
Bit of action!
Mansa walks a pair of warriors out of Kumbi on to the forest, trying to tempt our axeman into a stupid attack.
I backed the axeman off into the jungles, and moved a second axe over to help out.
The barbs have built a third archer in Parthian, and fruitlessly attack our archer. Nice promotion. Thanks guys.
Gave them cover, to help against future archery assaults.

I popped an axe down to check out Corinth. Still 2 archers.
This move also revealed a small edge of Hannibal's border to the east of Corinth. A hint as to where his homelands are!
167263

Whipped the Library in London.

T138 (430BC)
Mansa's warriors walk out onto the plains instead of the hills - a military master stroke, I'm sure.
Killed one warrior easily. The other one better run.

London starts an axeman next. Also rearrange the citizens to work the north mined hill again.

T139 (415BC)
The remaining warrior makes the most appalling effort at running. He can now be attacked by either of 2 axemen.
I choose the least promoted of the 2 to do the killing.

I give all the Corinth attack party CR1 promotion, and start moving in.

T140 (400BC)
Aha! Mansa is on the move.
A couple of skirmishers are approaching through the mountains from the east.
167264

Move our 2 northern axes to cover the approach.
London and York will add 2 new axes to the northern border in 2 turns.

Our attack force arrive outside Corinth. Still 2 archers inside and a 20% defence.

T141 (385BC)
We took Corinth and razed it.
Lost a couple of axes in the attack. Boo!
Gained 120 gold. Yaay!
167265

Continued moving axes to cover the skirmisher intrusion.

Time to handover to someone else. :D

Session Turn Log

Turn 130, 550 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Barbarian's Archer (2.85)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Combat Odds: 95.7%
Turn 130, 550 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 550 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 130, 550 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 132, 520 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Barbarian's Warrior (1.29)
Turn 132, 520 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 132, 520 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 132, 520 BC: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 132, 520 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 132, 520 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 132, 520 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 132, 520 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 132, 520 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!

Turn 134, 490 BC: Hannibal adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 135, 475 BC: Alexander adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 136, 460 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.30) vs Churchill's Archer (5.40)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Combat Odds: 3.4%
Turn 136, 460 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 136, 460 BC: (Barbarian Combat: +5%)
Turn 136, 460 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 136, 460 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Churchill's Archer is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (75/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (50/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Churchill's Archer is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (25/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Churchill's Archer is hit for 15 (55/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 25 (0/100HP)
Turn 136, 460 BC: Churchill's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 138, 430 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 138, 430 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Warrior (1.33)
Turn 138, 430 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 138, 430 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 138, 430 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 138, 430 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 37 (63/100HP)
Turn 138, 430 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 37 (26/100HP)
Turn 138, 430 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 37 (0/100HP)
Turn 138, 430 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Mansa Musa's Warrior!

Turn 139, 415 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 139, 415 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Mansa Musa's Warrior (1.33)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 139, 415 BC: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Mansa Musa's Warrior is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 415 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Mansa Musa's Warrior!
Turn 139, 415 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Warrior!

Turn 140, 400 BC: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 140, 400 BC: Nottingham will grow to size 2 on the next turn

Turn 141, 385 BC: The enemy has been spotted near London!
Turn 141, 385 BC: The enemy has been spotted near York!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (5.25)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Combat Odds: 28.8%
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (5.25)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Combat Odds: 28.8%
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer has defeated Churchill's Axeman!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Your Axeman has died trying to attack a Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (2.25)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Combat Odds: 99.3%
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (20/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman (5.00) vs Alexander's Archer (0.26)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Alexander's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 141, 385 BC: Churchill's Axeman has defeated Alexander's Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: Your Axeman has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 141, 385 BC: You have captured Corinth!!!
Turn 141, 385 BC: You have destroyed the city of Corinth!!!

Burn, you Corinthians, burn!

Burn, you Corinthians, burn!

Yeah!
Alex! Can you taste blood?

Kumbi next, possibly ... wish I knew what their defences look like now. They might be down to just 2 skirms ... or they might have reinforced after they wasted those 2 warriors in front of our axemen.

By the way, don't anyone waste their time looking at the graphs on the progress page! Ahhhrg! I'm sure it's all part of our master plan.
1. Look like complete muppets
2. Burst forth and conquer the world!

Our demographics don't look good either. Carthage is size 10 already and Athens is 7. I think the 2 axes and the archer need to pay a social call on the neighbours. (After pillaging the elephant camps of course - just leave the roads). With luck we should meet a settler party or two.

Kumbi should be down to 2 skirmishers, the other two we see are probably the ones that Sam found in Timbuktu.

I think our plan this time was to win, any way we can!

I have to say that our position does look a bit rubbish given that it is almost the AD years. Or am I just used to the tailor made perfect starts that you get in HoF games?

I would say most of the teams went straight for bronze working and spammed an army of axes.

I would say most of the teams went straight for bronze working and spammed an army of axes.

The power graphs don't suggest that, it looks like CRC built a wonder, probably Henge and most of the teams have gone for an early religion or wonder. Once we take Kumbi and build the iron city we will be in good shape. I would like to see the gnp and mfg graphs, I think those are a better indication of how we are doing than the score or power graphs. Not having any culture is keeping our score down but we are not losing any production because of where the cities are located. I really hope Kumbi gets a religion before we take it.

It's wooden spoons or bust for the Geezers.

I think you are up now Hawk - what's the plan?

I did not mean my post to be negative. ;) Nothing is lost from our current position. No AI slipped away in score which is a good sign. We are close to all 3 AIs on our continent in score and if we keep up with slow expansion and razing cities we should be ok.

This is prince, so if we do not crash our economy we should do ok in research and should be able to get going. We just have to keep the AIs busy and in settling mode. As long as there is land to settle the AI will not concentrate that much on military, but we have to get going on the pillaging front and raze cities.

I am quite sure that researching calendar as early as we are doing it will be an unusual move in comparison to the other teams. :)

Roster:

Mark
Harbourboy
Sam
AgedOne - just played
The-Hawk - UP
Erik - on deck

OK, got it. I'll probably play on Friday, so post any suggestions.

I haven't looked at the save yet, but I can't imagine there is much to do other than continue AgedOne's plan. I think my turn will be building axes while we research towards cats. I suppose I should clear out the barb city while we wait. No reason to tempt fate with a lucky barbie role, might as well collect the gold. Besides, I would prefer we post that archer in York in case someone drops some units of from a galley.

I could not download the save yesterday to have a look. Has the chop at London already gone into the city ? If not wouldn't it be of more use to put the hammers into a worker or a settler ?

I could not download the save yesterday to have a look. Has the chop at London already gone into the city ? If not wouldn't it be of more use to put the hammers into a worker or a settler ?

:confused:
Which chop was this?
The only things being chopped during my turnset were jungles, iirc.
The workers had been building cottages, which weren't going to be used for a while, so I rerouted them to road to the dyes and spices, and clear the jungles that they are in.

Oh, I did not notice from the screenshot that it is jungle being chopped.

OK, got it. I'll probably play on Friday, so post any suggestions.

I haven't looked at the save yet, but I can't imagine there is much to do other than continue AgedOne's plan. I think my turn will be building axes while we research towards cats. I suppose I should clear out the barb city while we wait. No reason to tempt fate with a lucky barbie role, might as well collect the gold. Besides, I would prefer we post that archer in York in case someone drops some units of from a galley.

There are two Mali skirmishers heading through the jungle, towards London. They need to be dealt with. I think Parthian can wait until we get cats and swords, the loss of two axes to free up one archer is a poor use of resources. It's better to build a second archer in York and use the axes to take Kumbi. After we have Kumbi, we should seriously think about settling another city for the iron.

Your big decision is what to do with the two axes left from Corinth, they can go and explore/harass Alex and Hannibal or they can turn North and help take Kumbi sooner. The archer still has a move before the end of turn and could join the axe in what is left of Corinth to provide some protection in case of chariots. They could then pillage the elephant camps wjile the other axe is healing. Both axes have promotions coming thanks to Charismatic :)

Sorry Erik, I had started and just missed your post. However, my thoughts were right on your lines:

Summary

Zzzzz
Killed three skirmishers, lost one axe.
Teed up one of Hanny’s cities for the next player to raze, also barbie city if we decide to go for it.
11 turns from construction. Should have lots of axes by then, so turnset after next can build some cats, and the third player in line can have some fun.



Turn 0 (385 BC)

Research to 100% (plenty of money from Corinth)

IBT Mansa skirmishers moving on London

Turn 1 (370)

London axe-> axe
York axe->axe
Promote axe facing skirmishers to combat 1 and cover
One axe pillages phants, the wounded axe and the archer head back towards London
Nottingham grows to pop 2, works copper

IBT Mansa coming on, moves to spice tile with road

Turn 2 (355)

Change mind on wounded axe and archer, leave them near Corinth ruins to wait in case another settler shows up.
Fortify axes on hills near London, trying to entice Mansa into an open tile. Odds to attack him in the jungle are too low (~25%), decide to let him pillage the spice road.
Pillage 2nd phant.
York grows to pop 4, work forest hill (probably should chop this hill and put a mine there).

IBT Mansa pillages the spice road.

Turn 3 (340)

Calendar -> Masonry
Start plantation on dyes SW of London.

IBT Mansa shifts the 2 skirmishers towards gold

Turn 4 (325)

Shift axemen, the trap is set. Don't those undefended bananas look tasty? :mischief:

IBT Mansa moves skirmishers to the banana tile, 5 axemen in striking distance

Turn 5 (310)

London axe->axe
Kill both skirmishers with no loss.

IBT Mansa skirmisher approaching from N, not going to get there in time to force him to favorable terrain :mad: .

Turn 6 (295)

Shift some axes to the north
Axe to hill near Hanny city of Hippo… defended by a single axeman :yumyum: .
Wounded axe healed, sending towards Hippo. Archer moving back to London.

IBT Mansa skirmisher heading to York's mine.

Turn 7 (280)

Masonry -> Constr
York axe->axe
London axe -> axe
Change mind, send archer back towards Hippo
Workers move to eastern dye
London citizen switches from plains mine to dye

IBT Mansa skirmisher wins race to mine hill

Turn 8 (265)

Lose axe @ 59.9% odds, kill skirmisher with 2nd axe (before he pillages)

Turn 9 (250)

London axe -> spear… decide we should have one to protect in case a chariot shows up to pillage

IBT Most