Sorry guys. I'm afraid work life closed in around me once more after I got back from a week's break. I've scarcely had a chance to pop in and read every few days.
I think I should be skipped, if that's ok. I'm also busy this weekend :(

Sorry to hear that AgedOne. :(

I just got noticed that a technician of my new provider will come on 10th March to install the new box for my internet connection, so I will not be able to download the save and play before this date.

Just a reminder : the deadline for this game is around 13th April. In AlanH's first post it says 4 months after release of this game which was on 14th December.

New roster :

Mark - on skip till March 10
Harbourboy - on deck
Sam - just played
AgedOne - skipped
The-Hawk - on skip till March 18
Erik - UP

I would switch back to Monarchy/Feud/Guilds - We need these to get gunpowder. We can also boost our troops and happiness with the civics.

We should switch to either Judaism or Hinduism - either will help expand the borders of our new cities.

The Djenne stack should go to Utica and the Carthage cats should aim to join that stack.

More workers would be nice, too bad the AI hasn't let us capture any. Maybe we should let York build a couple.


Any comments on this? I'll have a go tonight.

Research is fine with me. I am not so sure about switching religions. Our core cities will not have the new religion, so they will lose a happy citizen. However I know you will take the right path. ;) I also cannot really comment on the troops movements you suggest as I am unclear on our troops count and positions. Have fun !

Go for it Erik. What would the longer term plan be from here?

Go for it Erik. What would the longer term plan be from here?


Winning :)

Winning :)


:goodjob: :lol:

Mark has already mentioned my thoughts on religion. Perhaps I'm missing something but what will the workers do apart from Kumbi's stone? Bear in mind that units can appear without warning out of the fog by Hippo/Djenne. I wasn't sure where Alex's C2 muskets were going so I sent a couple of maces to reinforce Kumbi.

Turn 0 – 1520
Move troops towards Utica
IBT
Longbow suicides on archer in Pharsalos

Turn 1 - 1523
Notts – cat -> forge
Approach Utica
IBT – muskets approach Kumbi

Turn 2 – 1526
Kill muskets at a loss of one cat
Reduce Utica to 57% defense
IBT – barb sword suicides on WE

Turn 3 – 1529
London mace - cat
Iron City – cat – WE
Kumbi – xbow – cat
York – mace – worker (for clear cutting)
Utica defense reduced to 0
IBT

Turn 4 – 1532
Take Utica at a cost of 4 cats and 1 sword.
Decide to keep it for the winery and cows.
Enough gold to raise research to 60% – monarchy in 2 turns.
Our score is now higher than Hannibals
IBT

Turn 5 – 1535
Healing and reshuffling troops
IBT – Mansa musket near Djenne

Turn 6 – 1538
Monarchy – revolt to HR
London – cat – WE
IBT – Barb LB suicides on traveling cat, Barb LB kills Pharsalos archer

Turn 7 – 1541
Convert to Hindu to expand borders of Carthage, Hippo and Utica (after revolt)
Also exposes all the territory around Goa
Kill LB –
IBT Hanni settles a new city near Pharsalos

Turn 8 – 1544
Shuffle
IBT

Turn 9 - 1547
Shuffle
IBT – declare war on Cyrus

Turn 10 1550
Shuffle troops

All yours HB - head for Gao with the stack. Keep choping trees and building cats, we, maces and xb. We need to build a stack in Pharsalos now to take care of Hanni' new city, You should not need a lot of troops because it's just been founded. Utica is out of revolt, borders of Carthage will pop next turn, Pharlsalos and Utica after your turn ends.

Researching Feud now at 30% but you can manipulate after taking Gao.

Good Luck - our cities are happy now.

Hmm, you seem to have made some excellent progress in only 10 turns. Do we currently have what it takes to get Gao? Any other dangers to watch out for?

Nice progress erik. :goodjob: I was expecting Utica to be a hard nut to crack but perhaps some of the defence went to Hanny's new city?

We certainly need to get a move on before the other civs start turning up to settle our land.

Nice set, Erik. :goodjob: I lost track on the progress. How many cities does Mansa have now ? Hanni is down to Athens and the newly founded city ? If we go South again we should have a stack big enough to clear the complete area which is Athens, the new city of Hanni and the icy city of Alex ? All cities down there should be rather small and lightly defended. Athens did not have any tile improvements and was down to 1 pop when I handed over the game, so there cannot be much. After clearing the South we should station troops at the coast to see any incoming ships from the overseas AIs.

Hmm, you seem to have made some excellent progress in only 10 turns. Do we currently have what it takes to get Gao? Any other dangers to watch out for?

Yes - that's a big stack one tile short of Gao with enough cats to bombard it down to 0 in 2-3 turns. After that, suicide cats until you start to get odds better than 65%. There are 2 C4 WE in stack along with some maces, I also have a sentry WE, so you can see anythign coming. Gao has 3 LB and 1 skirmisher. There were 2 cats and 1 treb popping in and out of the city. As long as you do it quickly it should be no problem. There is a settler ther as well.

I would go north with the stack and keep hitting Mansa. Chop as many trees as you can. No whipping unless you need to defend, then whip archers or xbows. Defenses are a bit thin because it's more important to take Gao than keep some cities.


I was expecting Utica to be a hard nut to crack but perhaps some of the defence went to Hanny's new city?


No, there was still a musket or 2 and the LB outside the city. It was bad luck lossing all 4 cats and the sword was +90%. We should have had a couple more units left over but that's the RNG favouring the AI.

I lost track on the progress. How many cities does Mansa have now ? Hanni is down to Athens and the newly founded city ? If we go South again we should have a stack big enough to clear the complete area which is Athens, the new city of Hanni and the icy city of Alex ? All cities down there should be rather small and lightly defended. Athens did not have any tile improvements and was down to 1 pop when I handed over the game, so there cannot be much. After clearing the South we should station troops at the coast to see any incoming ships from the overseas AIs.

Mansa still has 3 cities that I can see but he's producing settlers (better than muskets :crazyeye: ). Gao should fall in 5/6 turns. We need to focus on taking out Mansa's last 2 large cities and then we can go on the cleanup. Priority has to be given to taking out Timbuktu, then Cherokee and the north. After Timbuktu we can clean up everything else.

1 turnset for Gao, 1 for the coast city and 1 for Timbuktu.

IBT: Nothing

1553 AD: Moved stack to Gao, which now has 6 longbowmen and a skirmisher.

IBT: Nothing

1556 AD: Bombarded Gao to 51%. Now has 7 longbowmen and a settler.

IBT: Carthaginian longbowman kills Worker near Pharsalos. :(

1559 AD: Bombard Gao to 2%. It will have 8 longbowmen by next turn.

IBT: : Nothing. Except a Malinese catapult and two trebuchets appears next to Djenne.

1562 AD: Took and razed Gao for the loss of 6 catapults. May lose isolated spearman next turn. Just noticed that this stack has two supermedics. If only their effects were cumulative. War Elephant and 2 catapults deal with the Djenne threat for no loss.

IBT: Nothing.

1565 AD: Move troops and heal.

IBT: Nothing.

1568 AD: Move troops and heal. Next target is Timbuktu. Reinforcements arriving via Djenne but it's slow progress rebuilding the stack.

IBT: Cyrus invades Nottingham with a Frigate and Galleon. Luckily it was only carrying 3 catapults. I hate how the AI has a psychic radar as to what the most lightly defended cities are.

1571 AD: Send reinforcements to Nottingham.

IBT: Cyrus pillages our copper mine, bombards Nottingham, and suicides a catapult. A barbarian axe is wandering near Iron City, readying himself to pillage our iron or gold. :mad:

1574 AD: Maceman kills Persian catapult. A catapult kills the other Persian catapult. Some troops divert to Iron City.

I might stop there because it's a convenient point for the next person to start planning the fall of Timbuktu and also we need decisions on how much effort we are going to put into repelling other invaders. Here is the screenshot:

170644

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_AD1574_01.CivWarlordsSave

Looking at the save it appears that our stack has returned to Djenne to heal. In addition it seems that Alex has captured the barb city to the south of Iron city.

Once our stack has healed I propose to go south and raze both Hanny's and Alex's new cities. Frankly I would quite like to wipe out the AI in the south but I haven't got time to do that in my turnset.

I realise that this will give Mansa more time to regroup but I think we just can't go on having Alex and Hanny sprout up to harrass us.

Sam, I think you finish Mansa off. Keep Waleta and Timbuktu. They are much more prductive than Alex and Hanni. We don''t have time to wander all over the place playing wack a mole. If we take Waleta and Timbuktu we have a solid shape and core that's not vulnerable.

Don't raze them, we need to keep them. Also Carthage needs some MM and the workers should be chopping trees or building farms. There's no point in building cottages, we are better off using the ones that the AI grew for us.

I definitely agree that you want to keep going on Mansa. His cities are the most developed and useful, and more importantly, Timbuktu is only a few moves away from where our stack is right now.

The bigger issue is that we are completely doomed once one of the overseas AI lands their big stack (which can't be far off).

How on earth did those other teams manage to win so quickly?

Warrior rush - might have found Timbuktu empty.

I definitely agree that you want to keep going on Mansa. His cities are the most developed and useful, and more importantly, Timbuktu is only a few moves away from where our stack is right now.

What he said... ;) go for whoever is closest.

What else have we done wrong in this game? It does look like we have been the worst of all the teams, so our mistakes must be glaring.

We should kill off the AIs one by one now, so I agree to keep attacking Mansa as our stack is already there.

Cyrus has frigates, so he has chemistry -> grens. This is not good. :mischief:

What else have we done wrong in this game? It does look like we have been the worst of all the teams, so our mistakes must be glaring.


Looking at the power curve we were doing fine until 1100. The biggest mistakes in my mind were not keeping that first Greek city and trying to retake Athens at the same time as Timbuktu and Carthage. we bit off more than we could chew there.

We'll learn a lot more once we finish this game and can read the other threads. I expect the teams that did well did not build graneries or barracks at the beginning, just units. Also, we needed to run some scientists somewhere and avoid mysticism so that we could bulb Astro with 2 GS.

We should kill off the AIs one by one now, so I agree to keep attacking Mansa as our stack is already there.

Cyrus has frigates, so he has chemistry -> grens. This is not good. :mischief:

We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.

Winston Churchill :spear:

We'll learn a lot more once we finish this game and can read the other threads. I expect the teams that did well did not build graneries or barracks at the beginning, just units. Also, we needed to run some scientists somewhere and avoid mysticism so that we could bulb Astro with 2 GS.

The fastest teams will have settled in place -> copper in BFC -> axes -> dead AIs ! :)

Since I'm outvoted the revised plan is to heal and then head north to Timbuktu.

1774 AD - 1610 AD

Summary
Feudalism learnt. Timbuktu captured. Mansa now has grens.

Turn 328 - 1574 AD
Move wounded units into Djenne. Whip Utica courthouse for 3 pop.

Turn 329 - 1577 AD
Notts forge -> cat, Hippo barracks -> cat, Utica courthouse -> barracks. WE kills Mansa musket by Hippo. Attack barb axe on gold with cat. Cat withdraws. Barb mace moves to rice by Kumbi.

IBT: Barb axe pillages Iron city gold.

Turn 330 - 1580 AD
Carthage Xbow -> WE. Djenne stack moves towards Timbuktu. Xbow kills barb axe.

Turn 331 - 1583 AD
London WE -> mace, Iron city mace -> cat. Stack continues towards Timbuktu. Defence is currently 2 CG2 LBs and one CG LB.

IBT: Cyrus returns with two frigates, a galleon and caravel to bombard Notts.

Turn 332 - 1586 AD
Kill barb mace by Kumbi.

IBT: Mansa produces a settler in Timbuktu. :rolleyes:

Turn 333 - 1589 AD
Pharsalos cat -> cat, Notts cat -> mace. Notice Mansa gren to south of Walata. :( Research to 20%.

Turn 334 - 1592 AD
London mace -> mace, York Xbow ->cat, Iron city cat -> cat. Start bombarding Timbuktu.

Turn 335 - 1595 AD
Kumbi mace -> WE. Continue bombarding Timbuktu.

Turn 336 - 1598 AD
Hippo cat -> cat, Timbuktu now 4 Lbs and 2 grens. Take Timbuktu for loss of 2 mace, 1 WE and six cats. Those grens are definitely a pain. Whip Djenne courthouse for 3 pop. Research to 30%.

IBT: Barb HA pillages Carthage horses.

Turn 337 - 1601 AD
York cat -> cat, Djenne courthouse -> cat. Carthage WE -> WE. WE kills isolated Mansa LB.

Turn 338 - 1604 AD
London mace -> mace, Iron city cat -> cat, Pharsalos cat -> cat. Dispatch some cats towards Timbuktu.

Turn 339 - 1607 AD
Kill barb mace by Djenne.

Turn 340 - 1610 AD
Feudalism -> Guilds. Notts mace -> cat, Utica barracks -> cat. Notice Alex musket heading north.


Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Maceman (9.60) vs Cyrus's Catapult (5.50)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 96.7%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 15 (85/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 15 (70/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Maceman has defeated Cyrus's Catapult!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Cyrus's Catapult (5.00)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Combat Odds: 68.1%
Turn 328, 1574 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Cyrus's Catapult is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Churchill's Catapult has defeated Cyrus's Catapult!
Turn 328, 1574 AD: Logging Game to File: sgotm06.txt

Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (9.60) vs Mansa Musa's Musketman (9.90)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Combat Odds: 36.0%
Turn 329, 1577 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Mansa Musa's Musketman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Musketman!
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Barbarian's Axeman (6.00)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Combat Odds: 32.6%
Turn 329, 1577 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 329, 1577 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 20 (20/100HP)

Turn 330, 1580 AD: Churchill's Crossbowman (6.00) vs Barbarian's Axeman (0.92)
Turn 330, 1580 AD: Combat Odds: 99.9%
Turn 330, 1580 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 330, 1580 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 330, 1580 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 330, 1580 AD: Barbarian's Axeman is hit for 31 (0/100HP)
Turn 330, 1580 AD: Churchill's Crossbowman has defeated Barbarian's Axeman!

Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman (10.40) vs Barbarian's Maceman (7.61)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Combat Odds: 79.5%
Turn 332, 1586 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 332, 1586 AD: Churchill's Maceman has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 332, 1586 AD: The borders of Hippo have expanded!

Turn 333, 1589 AD: The borders of Utica have expanded!

Turn 335, 1595 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 335, 1595 AD: Your Catapult has reduced the defenses of Timbuktu to 9%!
Turn 335, 1595 AD: Al-Razi (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (20.40)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 36 (64/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 11 (89/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 36 (28/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 36 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (18.15)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 35 (65/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 35 (30/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (16.02)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 11 (78/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (14.04)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (14.04)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 0.7%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (68/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 12 (66/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (36/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (4/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 32 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman (8.80) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (13.46)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 16.8%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Maceman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult (5.50) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (13.46)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 2.2%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (67/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (34/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (1/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Catapult is hit for 33 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Catapult!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (11.20) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (13.46)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 39.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 16 (50/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 16 (34/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's War Elephant!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (11.20) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (11.70)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 61.5%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 17 (48/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 17 (31/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 17 (14/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Grenadier!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (10.40) vs Mansa Musa's Longbowman (7.35)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 85.3%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -30%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (31/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (12/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Longbowman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman (11.20) vs Mansa Musa's Longbowman (7.35)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 93.4%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -40%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +70%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman has defeated Mansa Musa's Longbowman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman (8.80) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (6.93)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 86.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 16 (18/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 16 (2/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier has defeated Churchill's Maceman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman (8.00) vs Mansa Musa's Longbowman (6.00)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 83.4%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Attack: -20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (32/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (14/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's Maceman has defeated Mansa Musa's Longbowman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (9.60) vs Mansa Musa's Longbowman (6.00)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 94.4%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Fortify: +5%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Hills: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 19 (5/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (30/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (10/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Longbowman!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (8.80) vs Mansa Musa's Grenadier (0.40)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (Plot Defense: +25%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: (City Defense: +45%)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Mansa Musa's Grenadier is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 336, 1598 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Grenadier!
Turn 336, 1598 AD: You have captured Timbuktu!!!

Turn 337, 1601 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (8.80) vs Barbarian's Horse Archer (3.87)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Combat Odds: 99.5%
Turn 337, 1601 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: (Combat: -50%)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 13 (61/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 13 (48/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 13 (35/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Barbarian's Horse Archer is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Barbarian's Horse Archer!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant (9.60) vs Mansa Musa's Longbowman (7.50)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Combat Odds: 62.8%
Turn 337, 1601 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: (River Attack: +25%)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Mansa Musa's Longbowman is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Churchill's War Elephant has defeated Mansa Musa's Longbowman!
Turn 337, 1601 AD: Utica will grow to size 4 on the next turn

Turn 338, 1604 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nottingham!
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Hippo will grow to size 6 on the next turn
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Utica has grown to size 4
Turn 338, 1604 AD: Cyrus has reduced your defenses in Nottingham to 4%!

Turn 339, 1607 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nottingham!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Cyrus has 13 gold per turn available for trade
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Churchill's Maceman (9.60) vs Barbarian's Maceman (6.15)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Combat Odds: 91.2%
Turn 339, 1607 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: (Barbarian Combat: -5%)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: (Combat: -75%)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: (Combat: +50%)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 16 (84/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (76/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (52/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 16 (68/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (28/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Churchill's Maceman is hit for 16 (52/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (4/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Barbarian's Maceman is hit for 24 (0/100HP)
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Churchill's Maceman has defeated Barbarian's Maceman!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Your Maceman has destroyed a Maceman!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: You have discovered Feudalism!
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Hippo has grown to size 6
Turn 339, 1607 AD: Cyrus has reduced your defenses in Nottingham to 2%!

Turn 340, 1610 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Carthage!
Turn 340, 1610 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Nottingham!
Turn 340, 1610 AD: New Tech(s) to trade: Mansa Musa, Cyrus, Saladin, Hannibal, Alexander, Ragnar
Turn 340, 1610 AD: Alexander has 4 gold per turn available for trade

Turn 328/660 (1574 AD) [08-Mar-2008 18:27:57]
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
Nottingham finishes: Forge
Hippo finishes: Barracks
Djenne grows: 5
Utica finishes: Courthouse
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Decentralization'

Turn 329/660 (1577 AD) [08-Mar-2008 18:58:27]
Nottingham begins: Catapult (5 turns)
Hippo begins: Catapult (15 turns)
Utica begins: Barracks (15 turns)
While attacking in the wild near Djenne, War Elephant defeats (3.20/8): Malinese

Musketman (Prob Victory: 36.0%)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Hippo grows: 5
Carthage grows: 7
Carthage finishes: Crossbowman
A Mine was destroyed near Iron City

Turn 330/660 (1580 AD) [08-Mar-2008 19:09:57]
Carthage begins: War Elephant (9 turns)
While attacking in English territory near Pharsalos, Crossbowman defeats (6.00/6):

Barbarian Axeman (Prob Victory: 99.9%)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
London finishes: War Elephant
Iron City finishes: Maceman
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'

Turn 331/660 (1583 AD) [08-Mar-2008 19:19:28]
London begins: Maceman (4 turns)
Iron City begins: Catapult (4 turns)
A Mine was built near London
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
A Village was built near Nottingham
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Cautious' to

'Annoyed'

Turn 332/660 (1586 AD) [08-Mar-2008 19:28:07]
Maceman promoted: Combat III
While attacking in English territory at Kumbi Saleh, Maceman defeats (1.20/8):

Barbarian Maceman (Prob Victory: 79.5%)
Nottingham finishes: Catapult
Pharsalos finishes: Catapult
Hippo's borders expand
A Village was built near Hippo
A Village was built near Djenne

Turn 333/660 (1589 AD) [08-Mar-2008 19:34:26]
Nottingham begins: Maceman (7 turns)
Pharsalos begins: Catapult (6 turns)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
London finishes: Maceman
York grows: 7
York finishes: Crossbowman
Iron City finishes: Catapult
Utica's borders expand

Turn 334/660 (1592 AD) [08-Mar-2008 20:31:55]
London begins: Maceman (4 turns)
York begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Iron City begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Combat I
War Elephant promoted: Combat III
Kumbi Saleh finishes: Maceman
A Village was built near Hippo
Djenne grows: 6
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'

Turn 335/660 (1595 AD) [08-Mar-2008 20:43:48]
Kumbi Saleh begins: War Elephant (8 turns)
Nottingham grows: 9
Kumbi Saleh grows: 8
Pharsalos grows: 7
Hippo finishes: Catapult
Attitude Change: Saladin(Arabia) towards Mansa Musa(Mali), from 'Annoyed' to

'Cautious'

Turn 336/660 (1598 AD) [08-Mar-2008 20:47:16]
Hippo begins: Catapult (10 turns)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(10.68/12) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(10.68/12) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(9.36/12) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(9.36/12) (Prob Victory: 0.7%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(7.92/12) (Prob Victory: 0.7%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Maceman loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(7.92/12) (Prob Victory: 16.8%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Catapult loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(7.92/12) (Prob Victory: 2.2%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant loses to: Malinese

Grenadier (4.08/12) (Prob Victory: 39.0%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8):

Malinese Grenadier (Prob Victory: 61.5%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8):

Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 85.3%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Maceman defeats (6.48/8):

Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 93.4%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Maceman loses to: Malinese Grenadier

(0.24/12) (Prob Victory: 86.0%)
Maceman promoted: City Raider I
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, Maceman defeats (6.32/8):

Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 83.4%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (0.40/8):

Malinese Longbowman (Prob Victory: 94.4%)
While attacking in Malinese territory at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (8.00/8):

Malinese Grenadier (Prob Victory: 100.0%)
Judaism has spread: Timbuktu
Captured Timbuktu (Mansa Musa)
Timbuktu begins: Courthouse (180 turns)
A Mine was built near Hippo
A Mine was built near Iron City
York finishes: Catapult
Djenne finishes: Courthouse
Carthage finishes: War Elephant
A Pasture was destroyed near Carthage

Turn 337/660 (1601 AD) [08-Mar-2008 21:04:50]
York begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Djenne begins: Catapult (30 turns)
Carthage begins: War Elephant (9 turns)
War Elephant promoted: Combat I
While attacking in English territory at Carthage, War Elephant defeats (2.80/8):

Barbarian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 99.5%)
War Elephant promoted: Combat II
While attacking in the wild at Timbuktu, War Elephant defeats (2.56/8): Malinese

Longbowman (Prob Victory: 62.8%)
London finishes: Maceman
Iron City finishes: Catapult
Pharsalos finishes: Catapult

Turn 338/660 (1604 AD) [08-Mar-2008 21:11:44]
London begins: Maceman (4 turns)
Iron City begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Pharsalos begins: Catapult (5 turns)
Utica grows: 4

Turn 339/660 (1607 AD) [08-Mar-2008 21:35:23]
While attacking in English territory at Djenne, Maceman defeats (4.16/8): Barbarian

Maceman (Prob Victory: 91.2%)
Tech learned: Feudalism
Nottingham finishes: Maceman
Hippo grows: 6
Utica finishes: Barracks

Turn 340/660 (1610 AD) [08-Mar-2008 21:43:13]
Nottingham begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Utica begins: Catapult (10 turns)
A Quarry was built near Kumbi Saleh



I'm not sure if AgedOne is still on skip. If so then erik is next in The-Hawk's absence.

Do we have any chance of winning this game?

Got it, I'll play later today. Looks like Walata is next up (or down).

Yep. Just checking in - my only free day in the middle of 2 weeks of constant busy.
I would assume I'm out of commission until next Sunday, as far as playing a turnset goes.
I'll drop in to read when I can.
Looks like we're still moving nicely on the progress chart!

Turn 0 – 1610
IBT –

Turn 1 – 1613
York cat – LB
IBT

Turn 2 – 1616
London mace-mace, kumbi cat – cat IC cat-cat
IBT

Turn 3 – 1619
Carthage WE-Library
IBT

Turn 4 – 1622
Timbuktu – whip Courthouse
IBT

Turn 5 – 1625
Tim Courthouse-Library
Mali terminated - keep Walata
Convert to Judaism (Djenne, Hippo, Pharsalos, Walata and Timbuktu)

Turn 6 – 1628
Take Leptis
IBT

Turn 7 – 1631
London Mace – monastery, hire 2 scientists
Kumbi – cat – courthouse
IBT

Turn 8 - 1634

Turn 9 – 1637
Pharsalos cat – courthouse
Raze Teoh

Turn 9 - 1640
Nott – Mace – courthouse
Carthage – whip library
Raze Thapsis

Turn 10 1643
Carthage library – forge

Pretty quiet turn set - I am starting to rebuild the economy.

HB - I am laying siege to Cherokee - you should be able to finish it off. Bombard to 0, soften with cats then raze it.
There is an Alex town outside Athens that I have removed all defenses, it has 2 muskets and 1 one outside. Use a cat or 2 to soften it up, then raze it.
There are troops on the border of Zhou. A healer is with them. Get them stacked with the healer on a tile just outside the border. Heal all the cats and then use them to raze Zhou - it only has 2 defenders now.
Hanni is down to 2 cities, Alex has 3, Mansa is dead.

We are at -14 gold at 10% research. Do not build any more units until we get the economy in order. I have courthouses and libraries underway in most places. Whip only if there are unhappy citizens. I have 2 scientists in London, hire 2 more in Carthage, we need the GP. Once we get the research going, hire engineers, they will bulb some of the techs for Astro if we get a GE.
Think about where to place the Forbidden Palace. We will have enough courthouses soon. Djenne might be a good spot.

Pretty quiet turn set


:lol: One city captured and two cities razed.


Do not build any more units until we get the economy in order.


Probably might as well let the cat in Utica finish as we'll find a way of using it up. Djenne might as well start working on something else. Monastery perhaps?

The FP will take ages to build in Djenne. Carthage might be better as at least it has some :hammers: to work.

:lol: One city captured and two cities razed.


Relative to the Bluebirds getting to Wembley :band: :dance: :dance: :dance: :beer: :beer: :cheers: :trophy: :woohoo: :woohoo:

Actually it was 2 cities captured (Walata and Leptis) and 2 razed.

It can't possibly be my turn already can it?

It can't possibly be my turn already can it?

:yup: Both AgedOne & The-Hawk are on skip and mark's waiting on internet connectivity. Get to it HB. :p

Actually it was 2 cities captured (Walata and Leptis) and 2 razed.

Whoops. :blush:

Excellent work, gents ! :goodjob: I am connected at home again, so I can step into the roster after HB.

Congratulations Hawk - really good job on GOTM27. :goodjob:

I'll have to play soon, because my PC is due to go to hospital on Friday.

Summary: Zhou, Cherokee, and Khoisan all razed. Guilds coming in 1 turn. There is a Great General we need to do something with. I think there are 5 cities left on our continent, including one barbarian one. The invasion by Cyrus and Saladin can not be too far off.

IBT: Not much.

1646 AD: Utica: Catapult=> Library. Khoisan razed for the loss of 3 catapults. Bombard Cherokee. Heal near Zhou. {How did you manage to get so many stacks working on so many fronts??}.

IBT: Not much, except Cyrus bombards Nottingham.

1649 AD: Mostly healing and regrouping.

IBT: Two Carthaginian musketmen kill a War Elephant and a Maceman near the ruins of Khoisan.

1652 AD: Finish bombarding Cherokee.

IBT: Not much, except Cyrus bombards Nottingham.

1655 AD: Raze Cherokee for loss of 2 catapults.

IBT: Nothing.

1659 AD: Bombard Zhou down to 26%.

IBT: Nothing.

1661 AD: Bombard Zhou to nothing. Kill a Greek longbowmen protecting a settler. Now we have another worker.

IBT: Nothing much, except Hannibal has settled a new city near Zhou.

1664 AD: Or should I say the ruins of Zhou, razed for the loss of 2 catapults and a war elephant, but we gained a Great General. What do we want to do with him?

IBT: Not much, except Cyrus bombards Nottingham.

1667 AD: Shuffle, heal, worker actions.

IBT: Not much, except Cyrus bombards Nottingham.

1670 AD: Shuffle, heal, worker actions.

IBT: Not much, except Cyrus bombards Nottingham.

1673 AD: Shuffle, heal, worker actions.

171099

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_AD1673_01.CivWarlordsSave

I think there are 5 cities left on our continent, including one barbarian one.


Nice to see you keeping the momentum up HB. :goodjob: Hopefully mark can get rid of Halicarnuss & Sicca during his turn. Given our improved finances :D perhaps we can afford to keep Athens & Alex's southern city?

EDIT: From your comments about the PC going to hospital I assume you will be on skip for a while?

Nice further progress, HB. :goodjob:

I got it.

I think I will raze everything possible. Our economy is still far from being healthy.
-71gpt at 50% is not good and we need to race to chemistry. I'll see what I can do.

Good job HB! I was able to get all three fronts going because we had so many units sitting around on defensive duties. I just put them all to work.

Mark - I would check out Athens before razing it, Hanni may have rebuilt it enough to make it worth keeping. Think about settling some of those cottages that are in open territory. The GG should be settled, probably Iron City is good choice or else London. Grocers in a few key cities will help. We will need more cities if we want to tech and build enough units to conquer.

Has anyone counted the tiles? It would be nice to know how many tiles short we are.

Before HB's set we were at almost 17% land. Where is the information how many land tiles the map has ?

I do not know whether Athens will be a task for my turnset. Haven't looked at the save, yet, so I do not know whether we have enough units near it to attack. Surely I would have a look at that city first. I was more talking about Halicarnassus and Sicca. ;)

Before HB's set we were at almost 17% land. Where is the information how many land tiles the map has ?

I do not know whether Athens will be a task for my turnset. Haven't looked at the save, yet, so I do not know whether we have enough units near it to attack. Surely I would have a look at that city first. I was more talking about Halicarnassus and Sicca. ;)

You should have plenty of units in the area, I left a ton down there and HB only used a couple of cats. Hanni will only have two units protecting Athens, he should be back in settler mode. Those other 2 cities are trash.

You can get the total number of tiles by hovering over our score on the lower right. It will should land area what we have/what the total is.

There are aabout 8 or 9 units approaching Athens. If it is lightly defended, then you will have enough.

You can get the total number of tiles by hovering over our score on the lower right. It will should land area what we have/what the total is.

It currently shows 170/1220 and we're at 18.77% out of 64% needed for land and 18.73% pop out of 51% needed. Sally looks like he will be the AI to beat. He's at 18% land and 31% pop.

settle the gg in London

IBT : guilds -> gunpowder

London : cat -> knight

1) 1676AD : just moving troops, Athens is defended by 2 longbows and a musket

IBT : York : courthouse -> cat
Iron City : War Elephant -> courthouse

2) 1679AD : bombard Sicca and Athens

whip a courthouse in Walata

IBT : Walata : courthouse -> lib

3) 1682AD : bombard Athens to 0, Sicca to 10%

IBT : Pharsalos : courthouse -> cat

4) 1685AD : raze Halicarnassus for 79 gold losing a cat
take Athens for 127 gold losing 3 cats, it still has a granary, forge, aqueduct, academy and chichen itza
raze Sicca losing a cat and Hanni is out, too

This reduces war weariness and we can set some cities to grow next turn

IBT : Hippo : lib -> cat

5) 1688AD : just moving troops

IBT : Nottingham : lib -> war elephant

Saladin lands 3 cavs at Nottingham

6) 1691AD : whip a knight in London
whip a war elephant in Nottingham

4 cats and 2 maces die attacking the 3 cavs

IBT : a cav kills the whipped war elephant in Nottingham
a second cav kills a retreated cat
the third one moves East

London : knight -> cat
Nottingham : cat
Carthage : forge -> cat

7) 1694AD : kill all three cavs losing another cat

IBT : York : cat -> cat
Timbuktu : lib -> cat

8) 1697AD : just moving units

IBT : London : cat -> war elephant
Pharsalos : cat -> war elephant

9) 1700AD : more troops movements

It doesn't look nice. If Saladin lands a bigger force we are screwed. We also have to expect something from Cyrus, too.

Should we spam settlers now and get them into position hoping they will get us over the limit ? To me it seems it is the only chance we have to win this one. Invading an AI is out of question. We will never close the gap technologically.

:huh: No hanging around for you mark. :crazyeye:

I'll wait for comments before I post a plan.

I counted 436 tiles, Dom will need about twice that and we are way short on pop as well. We need to conquer or die. Muskets and Grens will help.

What options do we realistically have from here? If the 3 cavalry had landed near Carthage instead, it would be all over. We will always be on the losing end with invading cavalry unless we have riflemen or a strong navy (both of which we are miles away from getting).

Do we have realistic chance of developing effective naval power in time?

I'll wait for comments before I post a plan.

I think there is not much to plan. There are two barb cities to be razed and Alex has two cities down South. I sent a small expedition in Alex' lands, but the nearest city is on a hill. I do not know whether the 3 cats will be enough to crack it. I do not remember how many defensive forces he has in that city.

We will get a gs in 3 or 4 turns. Save him for bulbing philosophy or compass. I think the first we could bulb would be alphabet, but this is cheap and we should research it ourselves. If we can bulb philosophy do so. We should adopt pacifism to speed up our great person generation.

Draft Plan

From what I can tell from the GP preferences thread our GS will be able to pop Philo (Alpha is a BTS preference). Frankly using the GS for an academy in London strikes me as a better idea. Is Pacifism really worth it? Especially since it would we need to switch religions to use it in London. What does the rest of the team think?

What should we head for after Gunpowder? It seems to me that we won't have the power or the techs to leave our lands any time soon. If I'm right then heading for Steel sounds good for grens and cannons. That would mean Engineering next.

Hopefully the force by Miletos will be enough to take it and raze it. However after that we'll need reinforcements before we can take Mycenae so Alex gets to live longer. I'll see about razing Scythian but I'm not sure I can get enough units to take out the other barb city.

If Sally & Cyrus are foolish enough to keep attacking Notts then we should be ok. Hopefully Cyrus isn't going to try a landing by Athens. If he does then there's not much I can do about it. :sad:

We're lucky this isn't BtS. In BtS, the AI is miles brighter when it comes to naval invasions, so we'd already be dead.

I still think we're stuffed without Destroyers, but then again, I am terrible at continents-style conquest or domination games.

Sally has landed a somewhat larger force by Notts. Trebs, cavs, rifle etc. I have my doubts that I can kill them all. Thoughts on the way forward?

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k182/mrprab/SGOTM06/SallyLanding-1706AD.jpg

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm6/Geezers_SG006_AD1706_01.CivWarlordsSave

Hire the 300.

Blackmail them. Surely we can find some dirt on Saladin that he wouldn't want to have get out.

Seriously, this was the event that was going to doom us. It would take some serious favour from the RNG to save us here.

Retire. :( I do not see any reason to go on. Just waiting to be conquered is nothing I would want to waste my time on.

Retire. :( I do not see any reason to go on. Just waiting to be conquered is nothing I would want to waste my time on.

TBH that was the answer I was expecting. :sad: Since you're the captain do you want to email AlanH or shall I?

Let us wait for other opinions. Maybe someone is still interested to play it to the end.

Interesting post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6603338&postcount=2) by Gyathaar.

What ever you decide is ok with me.

I feel like I've missed all of the action - both the good stuff and the bad stuff - but this is the end. To play on from here would simply be miserable, frustrating and also very dull, imo.
I vote for retirement.

How frustrating. After all our practice gaming and pre-game analysis, we still couldn't complete what other teams seem to have done easily.

What do we need to do differently next time?

Will there even be a next time? Can the Geezers survive any more disappointments like this?

Well, our team communication improved, but we had the wrong the strategy. According to my experience AW has to be played differently.

I will wait for The-Hawk's return before sending our official retirement to AlanH.

I'm OK with abandoning.

I'm still wondering whether we can tip Dom without astronomy, but now it is moot. Saladin is going to be clearing our land faster than we can take new land. I think his stack is unstoppable.

My take on why we fell behind... too cautious at the start. In hindsight, we overreacted to AW and did not expand quickly enough. Also, we should have beelined BW versus the detour to Archery. After that, I think we did OK with what we gave ourselves as a base.

Congratulations Hawk - really good job on GOTM27. :goodjob:

Thanks mate!

@mark - Can you please post here when you've sent the email to AlanH saying that we're retiring.

Technically I suspect that I would probably be ok to look at the other threads now but I want to wait until we have officially retired first.

My take on why we fell behind... too cautious at the start. In hindsight, we overreacted to AW and did not expand quickly enough. Also, we should have beelined BW versus the detour to Archery. After that, I think we did OK with what we gave ourselves as a base.


I'll certainly be interested to compare other team's strategies and tactics with our's once we have formally retired.

I've sent the message to AlanH right after I read Hawk's post, but did not get a reply, yet how to officially end it.

I think you can go and check other threads now. We all agreed to not continue this game, so it is just a matter of how to officially end it.

I may not have time to read many of the other threads so would appreciate any summaries and comparisons that anyone might take the time to jot down here.

I've replied. I was deep in a plumbing problem.

Sorry to hear you are retiring. I've marked your last save as a retirement. Please feel free to visit the other threads, but please don't post in any that are not finished.

Thanks for the post Alan.

Just had a quick look at CRC, and it's just embarrassing how much they thrashed us by. This game was a complete walk in the park for them. How is that possible?

Just had a quick look at CRC, and it's just embarrassing how much they thrashed us by. This game was a complete walk in the park for them. How is that possible?

Have a look at MW's thread (first few posts & the last couple of pages) to put CRC's time into context. :eek: :(

I'm not so much worried about how quickly other teams finished as trying to determine why we ended up having so much grief :hmm: i.e. Did delaying our start and/or our start position make any difference? Should we have scouted more aggressively? Should we have geared up to attack one of the AI earlier? Did we neglect our science early on or did we concentrate too much on science early on? Are we a bunch of useless players? :mischief: etc. etc.

Look into the Xteam thread - Lief Erickson has posted a spreadsheet comparison of the 5 best teams. The lead teams all built the Oracle or Mids,or they captured the mids. Starting techs were either Agri or BW.
From the brief look I've had, they all started with plans to get Astro and to bulb their way with GP. They all moved the settler to different locations.
We built no wonders and grew no GP.
We were very timid at the beginning.

I'll try and make time to update that comparison with our info.

No wonders and no GP. I think that is telling. In most of the good HoF and XotM games, the good players always seem to casually pull off CS slingshots and precise lightbulbing of key techs as a matter of course (other than in really quick conquest games). We did none of that (but also seemed nowhere close to being able to).

I extracted some key dates from the log.


3940 BC - Found London.
3510 BC - Learn Agri, Dow Hanny.
3130 BC - Learn AH, Dow Alex.
3070 BC - Hanny revolts to slavery.
2950 BC - Mansa revolts to slavery.
2920 BC - Learn Hunting.
2860 BC - Alex revolts to slavery.
2650 BC - Learn Archery.
2260 BC - Learn BW.
2050 BC - Learn Wheel.
1840 BC - Learn Pottery.
1540 BC - Found York.
1300 BC - Learn IW.
1060 BC - Learn Writing.
760 BC - Learn Maths.
685 BC - Found Notts.
670 BC - Learn Sailing.
490 BC - Hanny adopts HR.
385 BC - Raze Corinth.
355 BC - Learn Calendar.
295 BC - Learn Masonry, Oracle built somewhere.
145 BC - Capture Kumbi Saleh.
130 BC - 'mids built somewhere.
100 BC - Learn Construction.
85 BC - Learn Mysticism.
40 BC - Learn Meditation.
25 BC - Learn Priesthood. Alex adopts HR.
125 AD - Mansa adopts HR.
170 AD - Found Iron city.
185 AD - Learn Col. Found confucianism.


We were slower than other teams at getting BW but I don't think that made much difference considering we took about 1500 years to found Notts to make use of the copper. :lol:

I think there's something about the way we make decisions as a team that results in a very slow, cautious style of play. Maybe something like the way design by committee produces deeply unsatisfying results. But I don't really believe that has to be true. A number of teams disproved that theory conclusively.
I'm not afraid to admit that I'm a pretty mediocre player - but one thing I'm always trying to do in my SP games is to force the pace and be dynamic and attacking. I have to force myself because it doesn't come naturally, but I recognise that all the better players never slacken off and drift, but always strive for the next objective.
Somehow the way we operate as a team we lose that incisive streak. All of the 'sharp edges' get blunted off in the discussions.
Not sure what to do about it, having said all that...

Our mistakes and flaws must be really galring in this one, because the other teams completely left us in their dust. If only I was good enough to be able to see what those flaws have been.

But it must be something to do with the fact that our Geezer games do not seem to resemble anything else I see in HoF or XotM.

Maybe we need a more dictatorial approach to decision making, whereby we delegate all powers of decision making to once person for the whole game, and the rest of just:
-chip in with ideas and analysis
-execute the tyrant's vision in our turnsets

Of course, that puts a lot of pressure on one person and may be contrary to the Geezer spirit.

Maybe we need a more dictatorial approach to decision making, whereby we delegate all powers of decision making to once person for the whole game, and the rest of just:
-chip in with ideas and analysis
-execute the tyrant's vision in our turnsets

Of course, that puts a lot of pressure on one person and may be contrary to the Geezer spirit.
I'm pretty sure that would be unappetising not only to the 'tyrant' but also to the rest of the team.
I would imagine that each member of the team joined up because they wanted to be part of it, and to contribute. If 5 people act as slaves to the one master, I think it would lead to unhappiness for all 6.

And I'm not so sure that the elite teams work like that either. We have seen teams where one person tends to dominate, but there are several teams who have found a way of sharing control around very successfully.

It's not the most pleasant thought, but maybe our mixture of playing styles is wrong...
When you have (say) 2 people with very different approaches to a situation, then they might both succeed in a single-player game, each using their own approach. However, tell them that they must achieve consensus and you get a middle-ground approach that they both grudgingly agree to, but which is weaker than the approach that either would have taken alone.

We don't have 2 players at loggerheads like this, but perhaps we get the same effect from having several players - each quite able to win the game playing single-handedly - who get their strategy watered down by the group.

Our mistakes and flaws must be really galring in this one, because the other teams completely left us in their dust. If only I was good enough to be able to see what those flaws have been.


Thankfully the Trash team seemed to have joined us in getting massively out teched by the AI. :goodjob: It looks like they're going for the wooden spoon.


But it must be something to do with the fact that our Geezer games do not seem to resemble anything else I see in HoF or XotM.


In previous SGOTMs and in this one a number of teams have successfully managed slingshots and bulbed techs as part of a predetermined plan. I may be wrong but I don't believe that this is something that Geezers have ever really achieved or even planned.

However slingshots and light bulbing would only have helped on the tech side. Having skimmed a few threads it appears that we left the AI alone for too long which allowed them to expand and overtake us in tech. The result is that we had a hard time taking them out.

Some of the other teams seem to have just taken over AI cities at will whenever they felt like it.

I love the comment in the CRC thread that when they saw that Alexander had built the Pyramids, their reaction was celebration that they would have Police State soon because they knew they could just go and take the Pyramid city.

!!

X-Team had eliminated Mansa Musa by turn 56.

But Murky Waters had eliminated Mansa Musa by turn 48! 2560BC! When did we eliminate him? 1600 AD?

We were facing Grenadiers, but they had done it before Mansa even got Skirmishers!

We were on a completely different planet from those teams.

Maybe we have better social lives...............

I've just been looking over the first few pages of our thread. There are a number of things that stand out for me.


None of us really had experience with AW.
We had lots of discussion about where to settle. Strategy was mentioned and discussed to an extent but wasn't our main focus.
At that stage I don't think we really expected to be on a large continent with three AI. As a result our plans were for a less warlike start. Unfortunately we failed to change to change our plans when it became clear that our initial assumptions were wrong. :(


EDIT: Regrettably we were isolated in my test save which may have contributed to us going down the wrong route. :cry:

So what goes wrong with our thinking when we are part of a group?
When playing single-player, we all consider things like specialists, bulbing techs, slingshots (occasionally). I'm sure we have all done this - some more than others, obviously.
I noticed one team (GK?) were trying out the chances of an early warrior rush taking a nearby capital, before they even opened the save.

We really need to start thinking like we would in SP games. Then, present those thoughts to the team and - crucially - when someone tries to water down those ideas you need to stick to your guns and use the argument that you have a strategy that might work - but only if it is left untampered with.

None of us really had experience with AW.
We had lots of discussion about where to settle. Strategy was mentioned and discussed to an extent but wasn't our main focus.
At that stage I don't think we really expected to be on a large continent with three AI. As a result our plans were for a less warlike start. Unfortunately we failed to change to change our plans when it became clear that our initial assumptions were wrong. :(


Well, I have some experience in AW. Especially in Civ3 I exclusively play AW for years now, but I also got myself in Civ4 AW. I just needed 3 attempts for the Monarch AW HOF gauntlet 2 months ago having Monty, Alex and Shaka on my starting continent and these guys are no real fun to play with in AW in the beginning. ;) I did not finish the game with a high score, but I easily won it. This is what is important to me. Scores or virtual awards do not matter to me.

Our strategy was wrong and I disagreed with several things being discussed. I was trying to give more options, but maybe I should have been more "convincing" by giving more arguments. Obviously things that appear clear to me I have to explain more detailed. However do not misunderstand me. I would not claim that we might have won the game playing it more according to my experience.

Coming to HB's post I would not want to play in a group in which one player decides what has to be done. Playing just from a list of what has to be done would not be fun for me and I wouldn't see myself as the one guiding the others.

@AgedOne : I think we have played well as a team this time, but our strategy was just not appropriate. We stuck to our decisions and executed them. This certainly is an improvement to our last games. Unfortunately we made the wrong decisions.

Furthermore we do not have players in our group that look into the code to see how the AI is programmed and I would say we are a group of "inexperienced" players (except The-Hawk) compared to other teams. Other teams have players among them who play various test games and try this and that before the game starts. I just do not have the time to do this and to be honest I am not interested to do so. I want to have fun playing the game in my spare time and up to now I can say it is fun to play with you guys, although we were not very successful lately.

I did not finish the game with a high score, but I easily won it. This is what is important to me. Scores or virtual awards do not matter to me.


My comment about AW experience was only based on the posts of the first few pages of our thread so I'm happy to be corrected. Regrettably we failed to make use of this experience. FWIW I'm not that bothered about awards although it's always nice to get one. :mischief: I'm definitely with mark about wanting to successfully complete the challenge. :yup:


Maybe we need a more dictatorial approach to decision making, whereby we delegate all powers of decision making to once person for the whole game, and the rest of just:
-chip in with ideas and analysis
-execute the tyrant's vision in our turnsets

Of course, that puts a lot of pressure on one person and may be contrary to the Geezer spirit.

IIRC a similar suggestion cropped up at the end of the last SGOTM when the The-Hawk's name was mentioned as the "dictator". I certainly remember The-Hawk rightly shooting it down in flames for a number of good reasons. Not least being the fact that it's hardly a SG if only one person makes the decisions.

I'm keen to try and learn the lessons of this SGOTM. Reloading the saves of some of the successful teams in conjunction with the turn writeups is proving interesting. Sadly we may not quite have learned the lessons from the last SGOTM as well as we thought. :sad:

However let's not rack ourselves with guilt. At least one other team did as well (badly ;)) as we did. More to the point those team members are not exactly inexperienced.

So who is keen for the next one?

See this, posted by ShannonCT in commenting on our Geezers strategy:

Well, in 99% of Civ4 games, you should be looking to capture a neighboring capital ASAP. Geezers might have been able to do this if there had been horses near the starting position. Xteam sort of lucked out that not only was there copper in our BFC, but it was next to a river so that we didn't even need to research the Wheel to use it.

In hindsight, your choice of capital location was unfortunate because the copper was not in the BFC. But this was just bad luck. The one decision I would question though is going for Hunting and Archery after you got Animal Husbandry. Archers are very passive units. Axemen are better than archers for actively defending against the AI, and obviously better for taking cities. If your team asks itself, "How can we win this game faster than all of the other teams?" instead of, "How can we survive and eventually win this game?" you'd actually make decisions that made you more likely to acheive victory. You should be actively seeking to make some game breaking play, or as Murky Waters calls it, a "power move". For us and MW, that was taking Timbuktu early. For Short Straw, that was Oracling Machinery. There's really no way to make a power move with archers.

Maybe we need to ask more outside players to criticise our strategies.........

The one decision I would question though is going for Hunting and Archery after you got Animal Husbandry. Archers are very passive units. Axemen are better than archers for actively defending against the AI, and obviously better for taking cities. If your team asks itself, "How can we win this game faster than all of the other teams?" instead of, "How can we survive and eventually win this game?" you'd actually make decisions that made you more likely to acheive victory. You should be actively seeking to make some game breaking play, or as Murky Waters calls it, a "power move".


Good point on the "game breaking play" attitude although he obviously didn't realise we didn't make use of copper until long after we got it. :crazyeye:

So who is keen for the next one?

Oh go on then. ;)

Judging by Alan's comments it looks like will be BTS plus new patch or else vanilla. Time to start getting my head around BTS......

I'll play next time out (If you'll have me) but I'd be happy if there was a gap of a few weeks before the next game starts.
I really haven't played much Civ for about 4 months - and when I have, I've been so poor that I wished I hadn't. I'd really appreciate the chance to go away and improve on my own for a few weeks. Get my head sorted out and start thinking about things the right way.

I'll play next time out (If you'll have me) but I'd be happy if there was a gap of a few weeks before the next game starts.


Judging by Gyathaar's comment here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6603338&postcount=2) you should have some spare time depending on how long Alan & Gyathaar are prepared to wait for the next BTS patch.

Is anyone keen for some sort of practice game? Maybe not on any particular scenario, but just something we can do together and try out a few things on. I know we aren't the types to go scrabbling about in the programme code or work out spreadsheets of every thing, but I think we might be the sort of people who benefit from maybe taking a starting game, and trying out a few different opening gambits to get a better general gut feel for how different options play out.

I think we would gain a lot from practicing the opening 50 or so moves because it is obvious from looking at the other teams' timetables that they were miles ahead of us even by that point.

My bet would be the patch takes longer than expected and a vanilla game will start sometime in April. I am game for HB's suggestion of a practice round.

I am up for a practice game. Anything special or just a random continents game ?

Gents, I'm contemplating dropping off Team Geezers again. I've been having trouble finding time to play and SGOTM is a big time drain. As a result, I have not submitted an HOF game for the last two HOF cycles and will probably miss the current cycle. Now that the Elite Quattro rules are settling in, I'd like to get back on track to go for EQM.

I'm definitely going to pass on the practice game, but I'll withhold judgment on the next SGOTM until it is posted...

I understand your position, Hawkie. I have submitted all of one HoF game in the last month. However, I will stick with the Geezers (if you'll have me) because I don't find SGOTM to be too much of a time strain (although maybe that means I am not devoting sufficient time to the analysis of our games).

For a practice game, I suggest something which tests our ability to get off to an early start and dominate our neighbours. This is the area where the other teams seem to do a miles better job than us. I think we should aim for Conquest (because Domination involves too much artificial settling) because we want to focus on the early game, but not one that we can win easily with axes (so we will need to balance war with growth). Level should be Monarch as that seems to be the preferred difficulty for SGOTM. Map type should be something with lots of land. Let's leave the intricacies of naval tactics until such time as we think we have found our groove with standard land logistics. I think we should make a definite point of planning for at least one key wonder and also have a strategy for the use of Great People, two areas we have more or less ignored (too our detriment) recently.

I'm going to be very busy at work for the next 2-3 weeks, so I'll have to pass on the practice game if it's in that time period.
I don't do so willingly, as I missed most of the last practice when it turned out I knew too much about the map.


Gents, I'm contemplating dropping off Team Geezers again.

I really hope you get a chance to play, Hawk. You are one of those who can outline a strategic plan for us, and valuable for that. We can little afford to lose our strategists!

I'll skip on the practice game for the time being. For various reasons my offline Civ has dwindled dramatically. With the coming holiday and the end of this SGOTM I have a chance to concentrate on my offline games again.

I believe the most common slingshots are MC, CoL & CS. This thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952) has the GP tech preferences.

Rather than trying to play a game all the way through perhaps it might be better to just play the BC years of multiple games. That way you get more practice.

3 of 6 doesn't seem worthwhile, might as well play solo xotm and hof.

sorry to hear you guys didn't do so well.

I didn't really get to take part in GK's run, the amount of testing/analysis that was done precluded my being able to take part, with the amount of time I had.

So maybe we'll all do better in SGOTM7 :)

@HB and Erik. If you are interested, let us play a comparison game. Attached is a screenie and a starting save. I would suggest to play 50 to 100 turns and compare our results. Are you interested ? It BTS btw.

172017

Here's me at turn 50. I won't write much in the way of spoilers so you can have a good fresh run at it, but I would be really interested in any other analysis or options for those crucial first 50 turns. I always feel like there is not too much that you can do differently, as it just seems to be a lot of pushing enter waiting for things to build or research slowly, but clearly the good players can get a lot of mileage out of those turns.

Anyway, I built Worker, Warrior, Work Boat, and I have started a Settler.

I researched Mining, Fishing, Bronze Working, and have started Animal Husbandry.

I settled in place.

Too much spoiler info HB.

@HB and Erik. If you are interested, let us play a comparison game. Attached is a screenie and a starting save. I would suggest to play 50 to 100 turns and compare our results. Are you interested ? It BTS btw.

It's the long weekend, and I don't have to work :) Thought I might give this a go, too. Is that ok?

It's the long weekend, and I don't have to work :) Thought I might give this a go, too. Is that ok?

Of course. The more people play, the better !

I played my first hundred.

Report is in the spoiler :

turn 0 :

Settled in place
popped a scout from the hut
started a warrior
research to mining

turn 2 : got 41 gold from a hut

turn 5 got a map from a hut

turn 8 : scout defends against a bear successfully

turn 9 : warrior defeats a wolf

turn 10 : get another 40 gold from a hut

turn 11 : mining in, start bronze
Uruk has grown, change to a worker

turn 12 : get 50 gold from a hut

turn 18 : warrior done -> worker
scout killed by a lion

turn 20 : pop some barbs from a hut

turn 21 : typical : one barb dies attacking my warrior, the second barb kills my warrior at 10,2% oods

turn 29 : bw in, revolt to slavery -> masonry

turn 36 : worker done -> warrior

turn 43 : masonry -> myst

As it seems that possible AIs are quite far away I will not try to rush one and will build a few wonders and concentrate on building up my core. Therefore I start researching myst.

turn 44 : Uruk grown to size 3, change build to settler

turn 50 : stats

1 worker, 1 warrior
Settler finishes in 11, but will be shortened when the quarry is finished in 4

research : myst ready in 2

turn 52 : myst in -> meditation, I want priesthood asap now for the cheap courts and oracle for founding conf

turn 54 : quarry finished, roading it

turn 60 : settler finished, continue on warrior for mp in Uruk
settler and warrior start moving to copper site

turn 61 : warrior done in Uruk -> stonehenge

turn 62 : chop a forrest at Uruk to speed up stonehenge

turn 64 : Eridu settled -> warrior

turn 65 : meditation -> priesthood

turn 68 : chop complete, stonehenge ready next turn

turn 69 : Uruk grows to size 4, stonehenge complete -> worker in 8

turn 74 : priesthood in -> animal husbandary

turn 75 : Eridu completes warrior -> barracks

turn 77 : Uruk completes worker -> great wall

turn 78 : meet Charlemagne, already thought we are alone

turn 82 : meet Shaka

turn 84 : copper mine ready -> roading

turn 85 : copper online, change Eridu to a Vulture

turn 86 : whip the great wall in Uruk

turn 87 : great wall finished in Uruk -> oracle

turn 88 : animal husbandary in -> writing

turn 90 : start chopping a forrest to speed up the oracle

turn 95 : nice, something destroys our quarry

turn 96 : start chopping a forrest at Eridu to speed up a settler

turn 99 : forrest chopped at Uruk, start rebuilding the quarry

turn 100 : stats :

3 warriors, 1 vulture, 2 workers
Uruk (size 4, grows in 2, whipping unhappyness will be gone next turn) has completed : Stonehenge and The Great Wall -> Oracle in 15
Eridu (size3) : setter in 8 to claim horse, wheat and gems site

Writing comes in next turn , will do fishing next

Scoreleader at 229 points, Shaka 217 and Charlemagne at 211 points

Quest : Build 8 chariots

Alrighty then! I had an interesting time.
Some good and bad stuff.

My report:


Gilgamesh - Sumerians - Creative Protective
Creative: 2 culture per turn so no need for henge or monuments. Cheap libraries, theatre, colosseum.
Protective: Free promos for archery and gunpowder units. Cheap walls and castles.
Start techs Wheel and Agri.


Starting location - stone, crabs, corn.

Hinting towards a pyramids or great wall attempt. Not as good as if we started with mining and could go straight on to masonry.

No reason to move, I would think. We're scouting for our 2nd city location.

Start
Warriors to hill. Saw silk, but still settled Uruk in place. Popped hut for scout!
Build worker.
Research Mining.

Darn. Popped mining from a hut, just 5 turns away from researching it.
Good really. Saved me those turns. Moved on to Masonry.

Scout popped a second hut for gold, but then died at the hands of a local lion.


Looking for a location near Uruk for city 2. Would like a good food tile, some hills and trees.
172063

Blue would get cows, and has plenty trees, some hills. Silks for use later.
Red gets cattle, plenty of forest, but is light on hills.
Green has rice, some hills but not many trees for chopping.

Out of these choices, I would go for Blue.

Buddhism and Hinduism went on turns 15 and 16.

Got Masonry on turn 20.
Bronze Working next.

Lost my only warrior to a lion on turn 22. Not doing too well against animals :(

Had an enforced 'quiet time' since I had no units left apart from worker.
Met Charlemagne's scouts around turn 30.

Workers first action is to farm the corn, followed by quarrying the stone.

My generals urged me to build numerous chariots. Funny. I've no idea what a horse is at present.

T38. Uruk reached size 3, cultural expansion, and we got our warrior back.

Settler next.


T40. Learned Bronze Working. Going for Animal H next.
The nearest copper supplies are now revealed. To NW, SE and SW.

This alters the next city locations a little:
172064
Green has dropped out of favour completely.
Red is still favourable, in fact more so now than before. It still lacks hills, but the copper will give the productivity that a mined hill would.
Blue should move slightly, as the original location missed the copper. Tempting to move still further and plant on the copper, with both cows and wheat in the BFC, but this seems too far from the capital for city 2.

I now prefer Red as the second city location.

Workers finished quarry. Mine hill next.

At T50 everything is quet and insignificant.
We are 3 turns from our first settler.
We have just 1 warrior and 1 worker.

T53 Settler heads NW.
Great Wall started.

T55 Eridu founded at Red location. Starts a worker.

T57 AH finishes. Mysticism next.

T59 Workers have finished their mining. Now pre-chopping a few forests by Uruk.

T63 Met Shaka.

T66 Big turn!
Learned Mysticism. Completed the Great Wall.
Meditation next.
Uruk starts a Barracks - the aim being to whip it with 1 turn to go, and use overflow into Pyramids.

T72 Whipped barracks. Lined up Pyramids behind. Worker ready to complete 3 chops in 3 turns.

T75 Someone built Stonehenge.

T78 It actually took until now for the 3 chops. I forgot I didn't have any roads.
Learned Meditation. Priesthood next.
Eridu completed worker, started Barracks.

T79 Uruk workers mining forest-hill.
Eridu workers pasturing cows.

T86 Eridu workers now off to mine copper.

Idiot!! While watching Uruk close in on completing Pyramids, and the workers completed the mine on the forest-hill, I let them starve from size 3 to 2! Now I still have 4 turns to wait.

T89 First barbarian appears. Archer. Very close to Uruk. We don't care! We have a great wall!!

T92. Learned Priesthood. Pottery next.

T93 Completed the Pyramids!
Uruk goes straight on for the Oracle.
Eridu workers have completed copper mine and are hooking it up. Eridu will become our military base for the moment.

Copper hooked up and barracks complete, Eridu starts our first Vultures!.

T96 (1600BC) Paused.
Taking stock.
What went right:
We built the Gt Wall and Pyramids.
Uruk is 20 turns from a GP - most likely a Gt Spy. Lesser chance of a Gt Eng.
What went not so well:
Too many units eaten by animals!
Nearly blew the Pyramids attempt due to negligently starving Uruk.
We really need some military. We are effectively undefended.

2 cities. Uruk is size 2 (oops!) - as is Eridu.

My score is not great - 211 - puts me second place to Charlie on 241,but ahead of Shaky on 192.

ahoy there!

markh has graciously told me I may rejoin Geezers for the next SGOTM(Gypsy Kings, while fun, requires more time than I have available)

So I went ahead and played markh's test game as well...spoilers are to 50 turns, 100 turns, 133 turns, 150 turns and 200 turns

edit: it seems I gave a less detailed summary than you guys did, when I have a chance, perhaps I should go back and see if I can add more detail to it.


I settled 1 SE, on the blue circle
Turn 50:
Uruk is size 3: 7 extra food, 5 hammers, 12 science
Settler is 7 turns away, can be whipped in 3 for 1 pop
Built Worker>Workboat>settler
Teched Fishing>Mining>Masonry>BW(2 turns away)
Corn farmed, Stone quarried and roaded, wine half farmed, clams boated

huts gave: 49 gold, hunting, barbs, warrior
Lost starting warrior to barbs, free one exploring



Turn 63:
Izzy met, she already knows writing, but has only 1 city...and she doesn't know any civ other than myself, so we are likely alone

Turn 79:
GW finished in Uruk
Lose last explorer to barb warrior(combatII promoted on jungle hill...)

Turn 100:
Uruk is size 5, building library(7 turns away)
Eridu is size 5, building Pyramids(31 turns away)
Kish is size 1, building WB for exploration(23 turns away)
Tech BW(finished)>AH>Writing>Pottery>Mysticism>IW(9 turns left)
3 workers built(both wines farmed, rice farmed, cows pastured, copper nearly mined, 2 hills mined in Eridu)



Turn 125:
Pyramids finished, Representation adopted
Tech IW>Poly>Aesthetics(a few turns left still)
Copper hooked up as is the wheat for Kish, building vultures to take out barb cities
Uruk(6), Eridu(5), Kish(3)

Turn 133:
Scotland Yard built in Uruk
Lagash founded



Turn 140:
Maoi Statues built in Kish

Turn 150:
Uruk(3), Eridu(7), Kish(4), Lagash(4) form our empire
workers have pastured cows, farmed wheat, cottaged floodplains at Lagash
Tech Aesthetics>Literature(4 turns left)
33 beakers empirewide(how sad)
Settler on way to form 5th city, Vultures on way to capture 6th city from barbs
HRE, Spain, Zulus known, all buddhist...buddhist emissary on way to me, will convert after it spreads buddhism


Turn 185:
Declare war on Spain
Turn 187:
Take Toledo
Shaka declares war
Turns 188-199:
RNG decides to hate on me
Lose 1 spear and 1 archer against Zulu Horse archer
Lose all 5 vultures in defense at Toledo against unpromoted Zulu swords
Shaka researches Feudalism...

Turn 200:
Peace with Spain(gives 20 gold), Pleased with me again too
State of empire:
Uruk(8)-Scotland Yard, Great Wall, Great Library, Academy, Ziggurat
Eridu(5)-Pyramids, Ziggurat
Kish(3)-Moai Statues, Ziggurat
Lagash(7)-Library, Ziggurat
Ur(2)-
Jute(4)-Ziggurat
Nibru(4)-Ziggurat

32 espionage/turn, 99 beakers/turn(40% science, +3gpt)
Tech Literature>Alpha/Meditation/Archery(trade)>Mathematics/Monarchy(trade)>Currency>Feudalism(11 turns left)

I went 50

settled in place, popped a scout (future tests should edit out huts close to the starting location)
3750 - Mining
3275 - pop AH
3250 - BW
3050 - Fishing

Uruk - pop 3, 4 turns from completing a settler for the copper,cow,rice to NW
I have met Isa, Charlie and Shaka.
I have 1 worker, 2 warriors and a scout.


at 101

2725 - masonary
2625 - Eridu founded (to NW)
2325 - Writing
1775 - Kish founded due S (1 wine,cow,rice, 3 plain hills, 2 grass)
1575 - Lagash founded (due w for gems,wheat,horses,cows) this will help block of the AI
1500 - Alpha

I have 3 workers (2 more being built) 3 vultures (1 more next turn) 2 warriors.
I am 16 turns from completing the Mids in Uruk. The plan is to cut off half the continent from the AI and then back fill once I have COL.
Research is 9 beakers (50%)
I am 3rd at 228.

Traded for Pottery(writing) and hunting(agri) with Charlie


If someone will tell me how, I will upload the saves.

ahoy there!

markh has graciously told me I may rejoin Geezers for the next SGOTM(Gypsy Kings, while fun, requires more time than I have available)



Hey, Thrallia! Good to see you back. I seem to remember you were just disappearing off as I was arriving.

You really seem to have gone off at a pace. I'm not sure the idea was to finish the game ;). We were going to compare ideas on tackling the early stages of a few games. Nothing to stop you taking it further, of course...




If someone will tell me how, I will upload the saves.


That's weird. I was going to say that you should use the attachments icon above the advanced reply panel . . . but it seems to have vanished!! :eek: Maybe something to do with the forum being offline for the last couple of hours.
(Edit: yes it was - see this message here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6633643&postcount=1))

Anyway, when it works again I would upload my save via the attachment gadget or via the easy upload system, and then put a link to them in a post.

the easy upload system was disabled because of that forum attack that happened a few weeks ago...someone used it to upload a virus to the forum database, and then used that to delete every single mod that had been uploaded.

A lot of them were restored via a backup, but because of that attack, easy upload is no longer an option :(

As for my game, well, playing those 200 turns took me less than 2 hours...it seems that I should have stopped around turn 133 though, when I had 5 cities and a bunch of wonders(still hadn't met Charlemagne though...)

Good to see you Thrallia. Hope you picked up some good ideas from the Gypsy Kings, because they caned us in that last game.

Well markh, what do you think? Very different games going here.

I think I was the only one to go fishing first or go for masonry before BW.

I decided to do that because I realized I could go fishing and mining first before my worker would finish, and that would allow me to work a sea tile that would give extra commerce earlier(although I forgot to do so), and I went Masonry because I had not yet met anyone, so early copper wasn't a necessity as long as I knew where it was before my settler was finished(which I did), and it allowed me to get the stone hooked up early for a high production tile.

Skimming through the reports it looks as though everyone had/would have at least one wonder built by turn 130 or so. Some like mark or AgedOne had two built or were well on the way to getting two built. I actually had a quick go at the save and had two cities built, about 5 or 6 vultures trained and Oracle due in 10 turns or so by turn 100.

It seems clear that it is feasible to go for Oracle/Pyramids and have at least two cities up and running.

OTOH I think the start position was too good. I didn't actually research Masonry as it would have made the Uruk even stronger than it already was. I agree that disabling tribal villages is more realistic as Gyathaar routinely removes them from anywhere near the SGOTM start position. I didn't pop any techs but I did get a couple of scouts, ditto maps as well as some gold. Izzy, Charlie and Shaka being so far away also helped.

Well, I regenerated the map various times until I got this position. Many options. What I miss is the overall strategy from all of you. Nobody posted a longterm goal. It seems everybody just played it. I would like to hear the plans you have with the options you have.

I didn't actually research Masonry as it would have made the Uruk even stronger than it already was. I agree that disabling tribal villages is more realistic as Gyathaar routinely removes them from anywhere near the SGOTM start position. I didn't pop any techs but I did get a couple of scouts, ditto maps as well as some gold. Izzy, Charlie and Shaka being so far away also helped.

Why ? You should use any advantage you can get. It is monarch, so the AI gets some advantages over you.

My strategy was REX with a plan to cut off the largest part of the continent from the AI. That's why I had 4 cities up and running by turn 100 and was building the mids for the extra happies. I had Charlie lined up to be my tech partner. I had not settled on a victory condition. Any of the VC except the AP would work for me. I suck at AP, can't seem to figure that one out.

As a rule I don't bother with the Oracle unless I'm going for the CS sling, I would rather have an extra 2 cities and trade for the tech that came from the Oracle. My capital will have a mix of scientist/engineers for GP. So I can bulb Astro.

@Sam - Wonder building is a lot easier in BTS, the AI is slower to start wonders.

I did start by reviewing the game parameters, and made a few notes about Gilgamesh's traits. However, there was nothing strong enough to influence my whole approach to the game.

I did feel quite strongly influenced by the good start location, plus the stone, of course, which prompted me to aim for the Gt Wall and/or Pyramids.

I decided that my overall strategy with regard to my neighbours should wait until I found out who was around, and where they were.

However, that's where things went downhill. I never picked this line of thought up again and - as you said - just played the game.

I did think carefully about strategic ideas such as the location from my second city - as you can see from my attached maps. This is actually something I do spend time on in (say) GOTMs.

However, it's quite clear to me that I had some awful lapses in concentration, and completely forgot things more than once. I really need to use some notepad and reminder system. I had a document open to write my game notes while I played, but didn't use it to remind myself what I was up to!

I think the lack of an overall strategy was very evident in my game.

I made short-term strategies, like which wonders to build and some tactics on how to build them in some sort of optimum fashion. But I never made the concious decision to re-evaluate my overall strategy once I knew my neighbours, and knew they were far away.

I had decided, when I hadn't met anyone yet by turn 25 that I would play more of a builder style game and work on a diplo victory(big surprise, since that's where I seem to always aim outside of the HOF) I focused on the Great Wall since I had stone, so I wouldn't need to prioritize military, and for a possible bonus to espionage later on. I focused on Pyramids because I always love to have Pyramids(, early happiness, early bonuses to specialists, or increased military production are always helpful), and for the GE points. I rarely go for the Oracle unless I'm a spiritual civ, as I find the detour takes more beakers and turns than it is worth.

I also cared less about copper because of the fact that I hadn't met anyone yet meant copper wasn't as important, what with my having built the Great Wall.

By turn 225, my decisions regarding the Great Wall and Pyramids had paid off...I was able to revolt to Police State when I was in war, and had gotten 2 Great Spies...one building Scotland Yard and the other settling, giving me a total of 50 EP I was able to channel into Shaka. I still sucked at war, but I could see everything Shaka did, in every city, including what he built, what his infrastructure was in every city, and how much culture/science/commerce each city was producing.

My diplo attempt was also on path...I had Izzy and Charlemagne pleased with me, and Shaka was pleased with me once I ended the war we had.

...I could see everything Shaka did, in every city, including what he built, what his infrastructure was in every city, and how much culture/science/commerce each city was producing.

I hadn't tried getting Gt Spies until very recently - but now I love them! The benefit to a warmongering approach shouldn't be overlooked, too. You can see exactly how many and what types of defenders are in all of your enemy's cities :D
On a slight downside, you can't see units outside of cities, and you don't seem to be able to see new cities that he builds or captures (which is a little strange).

What I miss is the overall strategy from all of you. Nobody posted a longterm goal. It seems everybody just played it. I would like to hear the plans you have with the options you have.

IIRC your post with save suggested that we play a comparitive start. I don't think it was that clear that we were supposed to post a longterm goal. OTOH I must admit I did jump in and play so I may have missed the post that mentioned that.

Why ? You should use any advantage you can get. It is monarch, so the AI gets some advantages over you.

Mainly because my view was that it would give me a false view of how well I was doing since Gyathaar would be unlikely to be that generous. Another reason was that I was doing fairly well on the production front with Masonry and there were other techs I wanted first.

I suppose the other reason for not posting a long term goal was because we were only playing 50 - 100 moves, so the focus for me was more on how do I most efficiently use that time.

I think I was the only one to not go with fishing early. I did that because the irrigated corn was going to power my growth to the happy cap and I did not want to spend early hammers on a WB.

I think I am the only one to have 4 cities as well and the only one that had Alpha by turn 100. Obviously I am out of step with the rest of you. I only play Emporer these days, so my bias is towards an early Alpha in order to stay even on tech.